1 00:00:00,600 --> 00:00:03,279 Speaker 1: Hey, it's Jesse. Just a quick night before we start. 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: This episode contains discussions of racist verbal abuse and police brutality. 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: Take care listening. I wouldn't call Bruce a queer hero. 4 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: For me, it's important to be a fan, but not 5 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,159 Speaker 1: to mythologize him and not to cast him in that 6 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: queer hero light. We're currently sitting at the end of 7 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: a long concrete jetty in Dover on a kind of 8 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:42,839 Speaker 1: four way. 9 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 2: Bench under a shelter. And why are we here, honey, Well, 10 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 2: this is what I love. 11 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 3: I'm going to refer to as my depression bench. 12 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 2: Welcome. 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 3: I have cried here, I've quit my job here, I've 14 00:00:57,000 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 3: grieved here. 15 00:00:58,600 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: I come here. 16 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 3: Whenever I'm free a certain way about something, because, honestly, 17 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 3: what is better than speaking your feelings into the sea. Yes, 18 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 3: this is episode four of Because the Boss Belongs to Us, 19 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 3: a podcast where two queer nerds sit looking at the 20 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 3: sea endeavored talking about their feelings. 21 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:24,839 Speaker 2: I'm Holly, Yeah, I'm Jesse, and we feel like failures. 22 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 3: Off the back of our conversations last episode, we're really 23 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,119 Speaker 3: starting to doubt our mission. Sure, a lot of Bruce 24 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 3: Brinky's lyrics make us feel seen, but can we actually 25 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 3: relate to him? He's a multi millionaire and a lot 26 00:01:44,280 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 3: of his fans can sometimes make us feel unsafe, and. 27 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,560 Speaker 1: When it comes to Bruce himself, there is actually just 28 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: no way we can know how he really feels about things. 29 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: Like any celebrity, he has a whole team of people 30 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: creating his public image. 31 00:01:58,000 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 2: We have no idea what he's actually thinking. 32 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 3: So now we're like, do we even want to make 33 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 3: a whole podcast series idolizing a rich, white, straight cisman 34 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 3: whose politics we aren't actually sure of? 35 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 1: So that's why I got the train from London this 36 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 1: morning to come and see you. 37 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 3: Since last episode. I went to see Bruce Springsteen playing 38 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 3: Cardiff Wales and it was amazing. I did my usual 39 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 3: thing of queuing up for hours to try and get 40 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 3: as close to the front as possible, which meant I 41 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 3: was surrounded by Springsteen fans for ages and yet as always, 42 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 3: some of those chats were really nice and the group 43 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 3: of people What's passed with a sign saying Bruce Springsteen 44 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 3: Fans for a Free Palestine, which I was just so 45 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 3: happy to see. But it sparked a whole different conversation 46 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 3: where I was and it was just very clear to 47 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 3: me that the people around me and the queue. 48 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: Didn't share my politics. 49 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: To my knowledge, Bruce Springsteen has never played in Israel. 50 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: But we're recording this on the nineteenth of June twenty 51 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: twenty four. And while we've seen some celebrities using their 52 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: platforms to take a stand on Palestinian liberation since the 53 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: most recent militarized escalation last October, Bruce is not one of. 54 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 2: That small number. 55 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: He's often spoken about as this really political musician. He's 56 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: written songs critiquing the military industrial complex, the. 57 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,919 Speaker 3: Two thousand and eight financial crash, border violence, police violence, 58 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 3: exploitive labor practices, gentrification, all things we also care about. 59 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: But I just don't feel aligned with him right now. 60 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: Me and you already spent a good deal of our 61 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 1: personal lives engaging in activism, and this has only ramped 62 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: up since last October. We're going to protests, We're working 63 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: with local campaign groups fighting for Palestinian liberation and for 64 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: an end to British complicity in this ongoing genocide. 65 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 3: We've also been mobilizing against some really scary political developments 66 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 3: that are curtailing trans access to healthcare in the UK, 67 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 3: especially for trans youth and that's just a name two 68 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 3: of the terrible things happening in the world right now. 69 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: Every time we've met up to do an interview, we've 70 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: had a check in before it started, talking about how 71 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: we're feeling about the world falling apart. Then we've had 72 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: to kind of like turn on our fun queer podcast 73 00:04:10,280 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: brains and think about Bruce Springsteen in this really separate way. 74 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: It's a pretty hard cognitive dissonance, which is. 75 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 3: So hard as well, because Bruce's music genuinely helps me 76 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 3: with this stuff. When I was at that Bruce Kage 77 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 3: in Cardiff, he played bad Lands and you. 78 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: Know the mid late bit, Yeah, for the ones who 79 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 1: had a notion, a notion deep inside that it ain't 80 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: no sin to be glad you're alive. 81 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 2: I love that line. It feels like he's singing my 82 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: shame away. Oh yes. 83 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 3: And then it just builds and builds into this beautiful crescendo, 84 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 3: and it just feels to me like a call to action. 85 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 3: I want to find one face that ain't looking through me. 86 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 3: I want to find one place I want to spit 87 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 3: in the face of these bad lands. I found myself 88 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 3: crying and screaming along to these lyrics. This song, to 89 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 3: me is about queer anger. It's about queer rage, and 90 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 3: it allowed me to feel some of the emotions I've 91 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 3: been feeling about the state of the world. 92 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, literally, I have chills hearing you say that, 93 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: because I felt the exact same way. Weirdly, often my 94 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: anger comes out and out in the streets. Literally, just 95 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 1: the chorus. When I'm out in the street, I walk 96 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 1: the way I want to walk. My brain stops caring 97 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: about the context of the rest of the song, and 98 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,960 Speaker 1: that bit for me is like the musical embodiment of 99 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: the chant whose streets are streets. It converts my anger 100 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: into energy to keep fighting. I feel conflicted because I 101 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: don't think that every piece of entertainment we consume necessarily 102 00:05:32,279 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: has to be aligned with our politics. And I think 103 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:36,840 Speaker 1: it's beautiful that we can take the meaning that we 104 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: want from Bruce's lyrics. But then thinking about the mission 105 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: we set ourselves in episode one, it feels like one 106 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 1: thing for us to personally love Bruce in our own way, 107 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 1: but a whole other thing to try and shoehorn this 108 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: big celebrity person's from a totally different world to us 109 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 1: into queer icon status. 110 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's why we've come to my depression bench. 111 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 3: We're pressing pause on the mission to take stock of 112 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 3: how we feel about all this. 113 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: Last episode, lets introduced us to the legend of Bruce 114 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: Springsteen's relationship with Clarence Clements. 115 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 3: Their relationship is such a big part of Springsteen fan culture. 116 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 3: They had this beautiful platonic intimacy. They often used to 117 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 3: kiss on the lips on stage, and after Clarence died 118 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 3: in twenty eleven, Bruce Springsteen said he was elemental in 119 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 3: my life and losing him was like losing the rain, 120 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,479 Speaker 3: which is just so fucking beautiful. And this is exactly 121 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:35,679 Speaker 3: the kind of thing that my tarror reading queer friends 122 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:36,679 Speaker 3: say all the time. 123 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: Yes, but it's also something that gives us pause. As 124 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: we said before, Bruce springsteen concerts are overwhelmingly white. Often 125 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: the majority of black people at his shows are people 126 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: who are working musicians on stage or staff working at 127 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: the venue. Bruce is celebrated for this seemingly perfect interracial relationship, 128 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: But to Bruce's mythology, is that a simplification of the story. 129 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: This came up when Arakzech Jasmine went to visit Lex 130 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: in New Jersey. 131 00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 4: I'm thinking a lot about Clarence Clemmens, and I'm thinking 132 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 4: a lot about how his relationship with Bruce does a 133 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 4: lot of the humanizing of him. It brings him back 134 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 4: down to reality. 135 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 3: For me, there's this episode of Bruce's podcast Renegade. 136 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 4: Where he talks about how Clarence is called the N 137 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 4: word and Bruce, instead of like kicking off like you'd 138 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 4: want too, like a superhero would, he becomes this just 139 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 4: this guy right who doesn't know how. He feels awkward, 140 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 4: he feels uncomfortable, he doesn't know how to navigate that, 141 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 4: but he just stands there to be with his friend. 142 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 4: I think it's those moments which humanize him. He isn't 143 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 4: this superhuman, He is just a person. 144 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: This is a very generous reading from lex I think 145 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: being able to see this moment as a testament to 146 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: no one being perfect, to the idea that everyone makes mistakes, 147 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 1: but we managed to show love and show up for 148 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: friends in the ways that we can. But for me, 149 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: I look at this moment and I worry, like, is 150 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:20,160 Speaker 1: this a representation of what it. 151 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 2: Was like for Clarence to tour with the East Street Band? 152 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, but could this be indicative that, as 153 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: the only black band member, he was not only the 154 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 1: only one experiencing racism, but also the one who might 155 00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: have had to do some emotional labor holding the awkwardness 156 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: and discomfort of his white bandmates. 157 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 3: Jasmine had some reservations about this too. 158 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 5: I'll be honestly, there is some part that makes me 159 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 5: feel a little weird about Like, you know, Clarence and 160 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 5: Bruce have this deep, deep friendship, but then at the 161 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 5: same time, it's like, here is this black man that 162 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 5: is being not the intention, I'm sure, but like is 163 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:03,560 Speaker 5: part of this device to make a white man more relatable. 164 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 4: That interaction for me actually is more that he messed 165 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 4: up for someone that he really cared about. 166 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think the thing where I'm kind of going 167 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 5: with here is that like the larger idea of a 168 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 5: queer icon, right, queer folks that then create queer icons. 169 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,319 Speaker 5: It's funny that a lot of queer icons are not queer. 170 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 5: One of my queer icons is Lord Dern, not only 171 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:40,719 Speaker 5: queer icon style icon. For me, I look at Lord. 172 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:47,080 Speaker 6: Dern as a way of how I move through the 173 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 6: world as a transferm person. 174 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 5: But here I am a black woman who has no 175 00:09:56,440 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 5: relatability to this very wealthy white woman. I feel kind 176 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 5: of strange about that for me personally, you know the 177 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 5: fact that like femininity is only granted towards white womanhood, 178 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,199 Speaker 5: and what does it mean for like a black person 179 00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 5: to base parts of their femininity on like a white woman. 180 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 5: Like for me, there's that levels of distortion that I feel, 181 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 5: and then also that feeling of like there are fucking 182 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 5: black trans women that I can just like immediately, like 183 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 5: look up to immediately and like have that level. Is 184 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 5: there any sort of mental gymnastics that you personally feel 185 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 5: in regards to Bruce, but then also in the wider 186 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 5: scope of like am not a queer people like attaching 187 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 5: themselves to like sist straight people. 188 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 4: I think I think for me it's probably because he 189 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 4: was just something that unfortunately it was there, right. Bruce 190 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:58,719 Speaker 4: was something that we'd listened to in the car, we 191 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 4: listened to him in the house. He was just part 192 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:04,679 Speaker 4: of popular culture. So I think just in my mind 193 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 4: I had to make him what I needed him to 194 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 4: be to get through. I couldn't tell you why why 195 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 4: do we do this, but maybe it's because if we 196 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 4: have them, if we make them moll mold them into 197 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 4: these things. Then they can't let us down as opposed 198 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 4: to real people in our lives that have the capacity to. 199 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,679 Speaker 4: And it's like a comfort, like a fictional soft comfort 200 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 4: that I think we as queer people need, especially at 201 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 4: points when reality. 202 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 7: Is it's hard. 203 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 4: I can patchwork together on identity and then you know, 204 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 4: wear it like a little blanket when I don't feel 205 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 4: quite as tough as I should. I think that's how 206 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 4: I move with it. 207 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 3: I love this image of lex patchworking and identity for 208 00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 3: themselves things that are available to them. But there's another 209 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 3: bit of me that's like, that's really tiring to have 210 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 3: to constantly be contorting the scraps that we have and 211 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 3: molding them into a ship where we can make sense 212 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 3: out of them. It is an amazing queer skill, but 213 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,479 Speaker 3: also it comes from a place of scarcity. 214 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think about there's a lot about the history 215 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 1: of queer people needing to find role models. 216 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 2: It's easy to forget that within living memory. 217 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: For some of our elders, homosexuality was illegal in the UK. 218 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: It only started being decriminalized in England and Wales in 219 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:40,239 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven, and then we lost an unimaginable amount. 220 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:41,599 Speaker 2: Of queer people to the AIDS crisis. 221 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: One of the many awful impacts of those things is 222 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: that now we have so few queer elders due to 223 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 1: decisions to not be out publicly or to fear shame 224 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: or death. Things are starting to change now there are 225 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: many more out public celebrities. Whether one of the impacts 226 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: of this was that queer people got used to having 227 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 1: to find queerness in role models that don't share our 228 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: marginalized identities. I use my own interpretations of Bruce's lyrics 229 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: to find words to understand my gender before I had 230 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:19,239 Speaker 1: proper queer community. Over time, I met and formed relationships 231 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: with lots of trans people, some of whom became role 232 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: models for me, And now years later, I am sometimes 233 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: the one giving advice to some of my more newly. 234 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 2: Out trans friends. 235 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: It's kind of like Bruce was a placeholder for me 236 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: until I found actual queer community. 237 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 3: And honestly, that's really similar for me. Bruce is still 238 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 3: so important to me now, but I do think it's 239 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 3: significant that the time I discovered him was when I 240 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 3: was still closeted, needing to find meaning and what I 241 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 3: had available to me. If we're thinking about queer icons, 242 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,679 Speaker 3: should we in fact be moving away from this practice, 243 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 3: like Jasmine said, finding role models within our own communities, 244 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:01,559 Speaker 3: rather than finding yet another a rich, sis straight right 245 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 3: celeb to imprint on. 246 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:15,560 Speaker 2: That's next. We're back. 247 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 3: We're still sitting on my depression bench speaking of our 248 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 3: feelings to the same the people were thinking about as 249 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 3: queer icons are often not very queer at all. A 250 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 3: lot of them are straight, A lot of them are 251 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 3: these rich celebrities that just don't represent our politics, that 252 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 3: just doesn't sit right. 253 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: This is something I discussed with Tom Rasmussen, who we 254 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: heard from way back in episode one. We were talking 255 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: about whether one of the unifying factors of queer icons 256 00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: is you dress up as them at a party, which 257 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: it's got us talking about the singer, songwriter, visual artist 258 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: and legend and one. 259 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 8: But then what's interesting is there's queer icons that you 260 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 8: wouldn't dress up as like you would never but I 261 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 8: consider her as a queer icon, but she's queer, So. 262 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 9: Then it's like, is that a different Hello Fish? 263 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 8: I don't know, that's really interesting. Can a queer person 264 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 8: be a queer icon? Does a queer icon in the 265 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 8: way we're talking about it do they have to be 266 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 8: like parodiable because. 267 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 9: You would never parody only. 268 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 8: You couldn't, yeah, because she's she's mother. But like you 269 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 8: could parody Mariah, or you could parody or not parody, 270 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 8: but you could you want to sort of dress up 271 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 8: as them. This is very hard, I'm sorry, not really being. 272 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 9: No, no, no, no, That's why we're that's why we're making 273 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 9: the series. 274 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 8: But then I think also that there's an interesting question 275 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 8: about gay icon queer icon, gay icon is particular. 276 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 3: Hmmm, yeah, interesting, have we actually been bad scientists? We're 277 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 3: trying to test and Bruce's icon potential against a methodological 278 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 3: framework that we based on a bunch of gay icons, 279 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 3: But was that the wrong control group to be easy? 280 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 281 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: Also, a lot of these more obvious gay icons Brittany, Madonna, Whitney, 282 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: et cetera, are often anointed by cis white gay. 283 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 3: Men, a part of the community that has historically had 284 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 3: the loudest voice, the most sway in shaping queer culture. 285 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 3: We're coming at this question of Bruce's icon credentials from 286 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 3: a lens of like dyke and trans mass culture. 287 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 1: In our lives, we use gay to refer to people's sexualities, 288 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: where thereas in queer is a term that speaks to 289 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,120 Speaker 1: a political identity too, as the old phrase goes, not 290 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: gays and happy queer as in fuck you. So this 291 00:16:38,440 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: gay icon versus queer icon distinction feels important. 292 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 8: Gay icon is like rhinestones on the bell. Gay icon 293 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 8: does reinvent every single album that story of like of 294 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 8: like real unbelievable wealth and success through adversity and getting 295 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 8: there yourself and it's you, you, thank you and God, 296 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,719 Speaker 8: and that's it when you receive your like thirty second Grammy. 297 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 8: What's really complicated then about that as idolizing these people 298 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 8: who for whom that is the narrative is that's like 299 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 8: a deeply deeply thatcher right, really right wing narrative as well. 300 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: In an American context, like totally typical American dream. 301 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 8: Pulled up by the bootstraps, Yeah, regionistic, which completely which 302 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 8: is sort of really empathetical to like queer practices of 303 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 8: community or whatever. And so I think that's why maybe 304 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 8: it's hard to have an icon come out of the 305 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 8: queer scene. Yeah, the older I've got, the more I've 306 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,159 Speaker 8: been turned off by that narrative, and the more I 307 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 8: find it to be sort of quite like bleak. 308 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 3: Can queer icon means something different to gay icon, like 309 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 3: in the way we're. 310 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: Using it, And who are we to decide who a 311 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:51,679 Speaker 2: queer icon is? 312 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 3: Are we falling into accidentally homogenizing the queer experience by 313 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 3: speaking for all queer people? 314 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: Should we be moving away from these kinds of definitions entirely? 315 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 3: Wait, a queer icons just unsatisfactory substitutes for queer role 316 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,200 Speaker 3: models and community. 317 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 2: We need to get on this bench. 318 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 3: Too many questions, not enough answers. We're getting a little 319 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 3: bit navel gaizy. We need tooth away from the sea. 320 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 2: I have an idea. 321 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 3: We get to have some we kind of walked down 322 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 3: this round here. 323 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 9: We're gonna get. 324 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: Ahead of like bad things to see walking away from. 325 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 9: You come in, come in all right? 326 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 2: You get oh such one. 327 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: Okay, So for the benefit to take we are now 328 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: back in Holly's house Stanley in their living. 329 00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 9: Room with tea left wind. 330 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:09,359 Speaker 1: And we have crafted an email to Jack how was 331 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,600 Speaker 1: the writer, academic, and author of. 332 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 2: The Queer Art of Failure, which we. 333 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 3: Feel is apt for what is happening right now. 334 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 2: So this is what we said in the email. 335 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 1: In episode four of our series, we've hit a rite 336 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: block on our mission, and we're looking for a kind 337 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: of queer agony uncle to talk our feelings of failure 338 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: through with we would it, of course absolutely to be 339 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 1: If this sounds intriguing, would you be up for a chat? 340 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 9: So I guess we'll see if he's up for. 341 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 1: A jat that's next, Jesse Holly, because the bus belongs 342 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: to us, or does he? 343 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:58,640 Speaker 3: We're not really sure anymore. 344 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 1: So, sir, it's a few days after that day we 345 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: spent on a depression bench and we've. 346 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 2: Heard back from Jack, haven't we we have? Would you 347 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 2: like to read his reply? 348 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 3: Yes, let me read the reply from esteemed at Jack 349 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 3: Harveston beloved queer theories too all. He said, Hi, there, 350 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 3: love the premise getting an unlikely figure recognized as a 351 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 3: queer icon, but don't love the boss. So that's a 352 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 3: past from. 353 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 2: Me, Thanks Jack. I mean, at least he said he 354 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 2: loves the premise, and you know that means a lot. 355 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 3: So we've had to pivot, as queers often do, and 356 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 3: I've come up with another solution. I feel pretty good about. 357 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 7: My Mum and dad went to a few of his concerts, 358 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 7: like they went to quite a famous one that he 359 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 7: did in mid eighties and he played in Newcastle and 360 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 7: he gave quite a big amount of money to the 361 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 7: local miners lodge who were on strike at the time. 362 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 7: But my mom and dad was that tour. 363 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 3: This is a dear friend of mine and our substitute 364 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 3: agony A. CJ. Ray's parents brought back a big Born 365 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 3: in the USA poster from that concept, the one that's 366 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 3: Bruce's butt, which they put up in the basement. 367 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 7: I remember going down the stairs and seeing it every 368 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 7: time and just thinking like, hmm, that's pretty nice. I 369 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 7: think I knew from an early age that I was 370 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 7: attracted to both men and women, and I think for me, 371 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 7: like the ultimate like early attraction was definitely Bruce. 372 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 3: I know from the queer punk scene. They are a 373 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 3: true Bruce Springsteen mega fan who also shares our politics, 374 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 3: so I thought they'd be good for some emotional processing. 375 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 7: I used to play in a queer punk band called Kinky, 376 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,719 Speaker 7: and we were playing a gig in London. Going upstairs 377 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 7: was like a zine festival. Holly was there, and Holly 378 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 7: had all these Bruce Springsteen zines and I saw them 379 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 7: and it kind of blew my mind a bit, and 380 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 7: I was like, oh my God, Like, I love scenes 381 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 7: and I love Bruce Springsteen and I think he's a 382 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 7: sexy man. I'm gonna make a zene about this, and 383 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 7: they did. 384 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 2: I have it up in my bedroom wom It's called 385 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 2: Butt Springsteen. 386 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 7: I draw pictures of an accentuated Bruce Springsteen butt at 387 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 7: different parts of his career, talk about the different eras 388 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 7: and the born to run, but the tunnel of love, 389 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 7: but all the different butts, and then I give each 390 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 7: one like a rating out of ten, but just as 391 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 7: a spoiler, they're They're all ten. 392 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 3: So CJ now runs an art platform called Black Lodge Press. 393 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 3: They design these beautiful posters with political statements fuck Matcher, bullshit, 394 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 3: forever vote with a fucking brick. The past, we inherit, 395 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 3: the future we build. They do a bun of research 396 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 3: into each one, and they've made loads of zines as well, 397 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 3: exploring queer radical histories of resistance. 398 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:08,920 Speaker 1: When I go to the big Palestine demos that have 399 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: been happening since October in London, you see black eards 400 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: with Blacklodge Press art everywhere. We wanted to talk to 401 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: CJ about what role art can play in the politics 402 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 1: of resistance. CJ started thinking about this stuff as a 403 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 1: kid when their big sister introduced them to bands like 404 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: The Prodigy and Rage Against the Machine. 405 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 7: And we've Raged against the machine like the Zapatista kind 406 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 7: of you know, liberation politics, movement and stuff discovering like 407 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 7: punk through that as well, like hardcore punk, and really 408 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 7: at the kind of heart of that is like the 409 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 7: Diya ethos that's kind of embedded within like the anarchist 410 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 7: politics of it all as well. So it maybe want 411 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 7: to make zines, and it maye me want to make 412 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 7: music and then make art and participate in direct action 413 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 7: and stuff. For me, it's there is no radical culture 414 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,880 Speaker 7: if you only have the politics of it. Like I'm 415 00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:00,320 Speaker 7: an absolute fucker for like not finishing a book, all 416 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,719 Speaker 7: these like books on like anarchysteria and stuff, and like 417 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 7: I just struggle with it sometimes. Like as much as 418 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 7: I love the ideas of it, you know, you couldn't 419 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 7: just have the kind of bare theory. You need all 420 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 7: the other stuff that surrounds it. So you need like 421 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,359 Speaker 7: a kind of movement of radical culture. And like I 422 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 7: think that's part of the stuff that I do is 423 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 7: like in terms of the art I make, it's about 424 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 7: agitation almost like bring like the joy out of like 425 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 7: the politics or that that we've created, because like, sometimes 426 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 7: you know, when you look at the world, it's like 427 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 7: a very horrendous place. In many aspects. It can sometimes 428 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 7: feel a bit hopeless, and it can sometimes feel like 429 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 7: nothing's really going to change. But I think, you know, 430 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 7: radical art, radical music, et cetera, it can instill a 431 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 7: sense of hope. Whether it's realistic or not, I don't 432 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 7: really mind. But for me, that's what music is about, 433 00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 7: and it's what art is about as well. 434 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: I love what you said about I hope. There's a 435 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 1: in one of Mariam Karber's books. He's like a big abolistionist. 436 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: She says like, hope is a discipline, which is something 437 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: that me and my friends talk about quite a lot, 438 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: as like it just being a really really important thing 439 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: that you that you need in order to fight for 440 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: the world that you believe in and that you need 441 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: to make happen. 442 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 7: Yeah. I mean sometimes people say like, oh, it's the 443 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 7: hope that kills you. I think it's a cynicism that 444 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 7: kills you, like that just like eats away. 445 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 1: This is something that me and Olly have been really 446 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,240 Speaker 1: struggling with. We both come from quite similar backgrounds to 447 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: you in terms of how we found our politics. And 448 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen, I think we can all agree it's not 449 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: a DIY artist. 450 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 7: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. 451 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: And one of the things that we're kind of struggling 452 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,359 Speaker 1: with is that you know, you'll be a Bruce Springsteen 453 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 1: live gig and there are people around you who definitely 454 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 1: don't share your politics at all. 455 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 3: There's a song called forty one Shots, which he debuted 456 00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 3: in two thousand and the song forty one Shots is 457 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 3: about the killing of an unarmed black man called Armadudialla. 458 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 3: He was shot forty one times and by the MIYPD. 459 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 3: And when that song was debuted in New York his 460 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 3: live show, people were booing, People were leaving some of 461 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 3: their backs on the stage as he played it as 462 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 3: a form of protest, and the NYPD tried to organize 463 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 3: a boycott of that gig, and then some of the 464 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 3: NYPD even organized a protest the week after. And then 465 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 3: it was so strange, like I heard that song performed 466 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 3: live in Ireland years later on, not expecting to have 467 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 3: that same reaction, and people around me were booing or 468 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 3: shouting out remarks and it wasn't expecting to hear that then. 469 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 3: And then most recently, I saw him play in Cardiff 470 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 3: a few weeks ago, and I saw a group of 471 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 3: Bruce fans that had signed saying Springsteen Fans for a 472 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 3: Free Palestine, which felt really amazing to see other people 473 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:48,199 Speaker 3: there that were maybe there for the same reasons that 474 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,879 Speaker 3: I were and got something out of it. And then 475 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,159 Speaker 3: to find out after that show allegedly online someone had 476 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 3: mentioned that they were allegedly kicked out of that show 477 00:26:56,880 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 3: for wearing a Palestine scarf. 478 00:26:59,080 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: Right. 479 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 3: Sometimes as a Bruce fan, it can be really jarring 480 00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 3: to just feel that disconnect of thinking, oh, we're on 481 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 3: the same page, me and Bruce, but then to realize, oh, 482 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 3: am I just fitting in the blanks myself here. 483 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 9: Yeah. 484 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 7: I mean I get that kind of disconnect sometimes when 485 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 7: I go to a punk show though, as well, and 486 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 7: you're standing in the audience and there's like an abusive 487 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 7: ex partner or somebody that you're friends with, or there's 488 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 7: like somebody that's like cracking like homophobic jokes and all 489 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,400 Speaker 7: this kind of stuff. Oh went to private school, Yeah exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 490 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 7: I guess like because we we kind of connected with 491 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 7: him for the politics or for like our interpretation of 492 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:38,440 Speaker 7: the politics, or for the meaning. But then you've got 493 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 7: like your average pop fan I guess as well. It 494 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 7: was just like, oh, yeah, danced in the dark. 495 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 2: Aren't we welcome that too? 496 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 1: Yeah? 497 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 3: Exactly, Yeah, yeah, Yeah, there's a Bruce's butt for everyone everywhere. 498 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 7: Yeah. Yeah. 499 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: We're potentially getting to a point where we're like, there's 500 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,560 Speaker 1: a Bruce Springsteen who we have, as you said, Holleyfield 501 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 1: in the blanks for and so we're like, there's like 502 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: a Bruce that. 503 00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 2: Exists in our brains. 504 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and then I guess what we're trying to work 505 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,159 Speaker 1: out at the moment is like, if you have got 506 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 1: all that meaning and through that kind of created the 507 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,199 Speaker 1: Bruce Bristeen of your dreams, how much expectations should you 508 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: have of the actual Bruce Bringsteen who's walking around in 509 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: New Jersey like breathing air and talking to people. 510 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 7: Yeah, it's like the idea of Bruce and then the 511 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 7: actual reality of him being a human being is like 512 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,320 Speaker 7: it's really like if I if somebody says to me 513 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 7: Bruce Springsteen, I instantly in my head think of like 514 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 7: nineteen seventy six Bruce, like hot hot. I often just 515 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 7: forget that he's actually a real person. It's quite a 516 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 7: jarring thing to kind of come to terms with. Sometimes 517 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 7: it's like, oh, I don't want to think of like 518 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,959 Speaker 7: Bruce as been like a millionaire in a mansion, and 519 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 7: so I'm just going to like, I'm just going to 520 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,880 Speaker 7: think about him like he's living in like a kind 521 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 7: of grotty apartment in New Jersey. It's nineteen seventy a 522 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 7: and he's right all all these like romantic, beautiful pop 523 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 7: rock songs, and that's that's Bruce Sprigsteed for me in 524 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 7: my head. And that's probably the wrong thing to do. 525 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,480 Speaker 3: That's part of it, though, isn't it. I think that's 526 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,080 Speaker 3: how we compartmentalize and what we make meaning for because 527 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 3: I don't like to think that the album Working on 528 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 3: a Dream exists. I want to block that from my memory. 529 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 3: Queen the Supermarket, What don't know? 530 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 7: I mean, there's there's stuff that he's done, you know, 531 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 7: Like when I think was it North Carolina past the 532 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 7: kind of bathroom law that transphobic? Was it North Carolina? 533 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 7: I think it's somewhere where yeah, yeah, yeah, And he 534 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 7: had a solidarity for like the kind of trans and 535 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 7: LGBT community. He canceled that show because he wasn't going 536 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 7: to play in a state which had that law. For me, 537 00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 7: that isn't like a kind of performative action at all. 538 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 7: Like I think that's really coming from him and from 539 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 7: his politics, and I think that's brilliant. Having said that, 540 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 7: I think sometimes like the silence can be deafening as well, 541 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 7: Like you know you mentioned about Palestine and stuff, and 542 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 7: the silence around it from some people is deafening for Bruce, 543 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 7: That's that's true as well. Again, am I just ignoring 544 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 7: that because just like. 545 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:09,520 Speaker 2: I'm so sorry, we're being real down, But. 546 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 7: I know, I think I think he does, like he 547 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 7: does show solidarity to the different communities, you know, giving 548 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 7: money or like or writing songs about like different experiences 549 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 7: for different communities and different people. I think he does 550 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 7: show that. 551 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: I feel I'm I know that we literally just had 552 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: a conversation about how cynicism isn't always useful. But I 553 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: do feel slightly more cynical about the canceled gig than 554 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: you CJ. Like when I'm feeling down on Breece. Yeah, 555 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: I have this feeling where I'm like, he wasn't the 556 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: only artist who did that. It was there was like 557 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: a cool to boycott or to cancel gigs in North 558 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: Carolina because of this baffing bill that was anti trans 559 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: So like a bunch. 560 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 2: Of artists did or were at least asked to. 561 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: And the cynical bit of my brain is like, well, 562 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: you know, Bruce is fucking loaded, Like it was very 563 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: easy for him to cancel one gig and it did 564 00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: make him look really good. 565 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 2: I believe it can be both things. 566 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: I believe that he can have those politics and that 567 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: it can be good for his career, so that I'm like, yes, 568 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: that is nice. Yes, it also makes you look good. 569 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: Is this the bind of being a celebrity? 570 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? 571 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 7: Yeah, it's tricky in it. 572 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:14,520 Speaker 4: Yeah. 573 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 7: I think like I wouldn't be shocked if like a 574 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 7: proportion of Bruce Bingsteen fans have transphobic views. Like that 575 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 7: wouldn't surprise me. I guess it did like provide like 576 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 7: a positive piece of publicity for him by by counseling 577 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 7: that gig, But I would be surprised as well if 578 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 7: it maybe even turned a few fans off him as all. 579 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 7: At the same time, poor guy, he's fucked either way. 580 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: It's tough, isn't It's a tough bind because I really 581 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: relate to UCJ of being like sometimes I just ignore 582 00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: a day. 583 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 2: Because that is also part of life, isn't it. 584 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: The other relatable experience in my life is that I 585 00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: simply love to watch a shitty, shitty rum com, like 586 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,640 Speaker 1: a rum com that has the worst sexual politics in it, 587 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? That's the most heteronormative 588 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 1: that like portrays a version of life and love that 589 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 1: I completely disagree with. But I find it very comforting, 590 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: very very fun, very entertaining and like really silly. And 591 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: I guess have we got into deep And is it 592 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: possible to like have our politics and hold our criticism 593 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 1: so that we can access the joy that we need 594 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: to carry on living our lives. 595 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 3: Yeah? 596 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 7: I think so. Yeah. No, I guess it's like going 597 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 7: to the football, Like I like despise like the kind 598 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 7: of the entire like structure of modern football, like the wages, 599 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 7: the sponsorship, you know, everything about it. I despise it, 600 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,160 Speaker 7: But I love football, and so like I'm still going 601 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,440 Speaker 7: to go and watch football. I'm still going to support 602 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 7: my team. If we kind of break down, people like Bruce, 603 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,600 Speaker 7: not even people like Bruce, but like notions of Bruce 604 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 7: to like an nth degree. Then we're always going to 605 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 7: find like contradictions where I was going to find difficulties. 606 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 7: I don't know. Life can be pretty shit sometimes, so 607 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 7: sometimes it's about taking like the decent stuff when you 608 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 7: can get it. And some of the stuff for me 609 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 7: is Bruce and his music. 610 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 3: It's an often like misused quote, but that whole like 611 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 3: there's no such thing as ethical consumption and the capitalism 612 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 3: it's been stretched to all different versions but could also 613 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 3: be applied here. I do wonder as well, like, as 614 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 3: queer fans, is this a sign that we like really 615 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 3: truly love something because we're tearing him to shreds right now. 616 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 3: But I feel like you can only really do that 617 00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 3: with the things that you really love as well, what 618 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 3: you can terrogate. 619 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 7: In that way, Yeah, definitely. Yeah. 620 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 3: I wonder just to kind of sum up all this up, 621 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 3: is there any advice you can give to us about 622 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 3: how we can be good fans? How how does fan 623 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 3: how does that work for you? And like, can you 624 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 3: give us any any tips? 625 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 7: I would say, like maybe approach it from a hopeful 626 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 7: point of view rather than a cynical point of view, 627 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 7: a hopeful view in which you can make a connection 628 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 7: with people or gain pleasure or joy from something. I 629 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 7: lost my dad like two years ago, and we we 630 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 7: played a Bruce song at his funeral. If I should 631 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 7: fall behind, I think it is always called oh yeah, 632 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 7: we played that at his funeral, and I've seen him 633 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 7: a few times, but I've never seen him play that before. 634 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 7: But last year in London he played that as like 635 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,120 Speaker 7: the last song, and like, oh my god, I went 636 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 7: with my mom and so like we were both just howling. 637 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 7: It was like horrendous because we were howling our heads off, 638 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 7: but it was also like such a beautiful moment. And Yeah, 639 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 7: it's so easy to get bogged down in like the 640 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 7: kind of the shite day to day or the shite 641 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 7: you know, horrendous events of life that kind of take place, 642 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,439 Speaker 7: But sometimes you have those moments where it's like such 643 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 7: a kind of it's like a moment of such like 644 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 7: intensity and joy, even if it's like kind of rooting 645 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 7: in sadness. And I think like having those moments can 646 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 7: be like really really special. Yeah, go with open hearts. 647 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 3: I've literally got a tear in my eye that is. 648 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 2: Go with open Hearts. 649 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 3: That's next episode. 650 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 1: Because the Buss Belongs to Us is a production of 651 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,240 Speaker 1: malten Hart and iHeart Podcasts were hosted by Jesse Lawson 652 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: and Holly Gassio. 653 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 3: The series is executive produced by Jesse and Holly and 654 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 3: created by Jesse Lawson. 655 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: This episode was produced and sound designed by Jesse Lawson, 656 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: with production assistants from Thomas Griffin and Tess Hazel. Michelle 657 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 1: Macklam is our mix engineer. 658 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 3: Our original music and theme is by Talk Bizarre at 659 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 3: Talk b a zed Aar Underscore. 660 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 1: Our show art was designed and illustrated by Holly Cassio 661 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,799 Speaker 1: at Holly c Asio Clact. 662 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,720 Speaker 3: Checking by Selina Solin. Legal services provided by Rowan, Moran 663 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 3: and File. 664 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 1: Our executive producer from Moulton Hert is Jasmine dat Green. 665 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: Our executive producer from iHeart Podcasts is Lindsay Hoffman, Hi 666 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: good Lie. 667 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 8: Because the pus of