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Speaker 1: As lazy as Donald Trump has been, the one area

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Speaker 1: where he has shown great diligence is in abusing the

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Speaker 1: government to serve his personal and political goals. We elected

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Speaker 1: a president in twenty sixteen who was corrupt, hired corrupt people,

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Speaker 1: and engaged in rampid corruption. With each day they got

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Speaker 1: better and better at understanding the levers of government and

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Speaker 1: how they could exploit gaps and exploit loopholes to further

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Speaker 1: their corruption. I mean, when was the last time you

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Speaker 1: needed to know who the Postmaster General of the United

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Speaker 1: States was? Like, I've done oversight over the Postal Service

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Speaker 1: and I can only name one person between Louis to

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Speaker 1: Joy and Ben Franklin. So that gives you a sense

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Speaker 1: of just how much damage this president has done two

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Speaker 1: institutions that nobody needed to pay attention to you before.

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Speaker 1: When a new president takes office, one of the first

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Speaker 1: things on the agenda is a clean house. It is

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Speaker 1: their opportunity to quickly whip things into shape so they

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Speaker 1: can do what they got elected to do. And while

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Speaker 1: the majority of government positions will turn over with a

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Speaker 1: new administration, it's not all of them. There are a

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Speaker 1: handful of government roles filled through political appointment that have

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Speaker 1: terms that aren't specifically tied to a president. What does

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Speaker 1: that mean? It means that President Trump has put people

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Speaker 1: in these positions, many of them controversial figures, and now

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Speaker 1: they hold significant political power. I'm talking about jobs like

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Speaker 1: the Postmaster General, federal election commissioners, and the Office of

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Speaker 1: Inspectors General. On this episode, we're looking at what it

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Speaker 1: really means for a president to clean house and whether

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Speaker 1: hold over Trump appointees could pose a challenge for Biden

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Speaker 1: his agenda. I'm Stephanie Rule, MSNBC anchor, NBC News Senior correspondent,

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Speaker 1: and this is Modern Rules, a podcast from NBC Think

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Speaker 1: and I Heart Radio. The Trump administration has been described

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Speaker 1: as one of the most corrupt in history. So what

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Speaker 1: we want to find out what loopholes, what rules were

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Speaker 1: they able to bend to their own advantage, What could

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Speaker 1: they do and even the last few weeks of the

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Speaker 1: Trump presidency they could have long lasting damage. My guest

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Speaker 1: today can answer that very question. He's an anti corruption

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Speaker 1: expert with a keen understanding of exactly how DC works.

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Speaker 1: Donald Sherman is Deputy Director of Citizens for Responsibility and

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Speaker 1: Ethics in Washington, and Ethics watchdog organization, and before that,

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Speaker 1: he was an oversight and ethics lawyer in the Obama administration,

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Speaker 1: and he was a chief oversight council to the late Rep.

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Speaker 1: Elijah Cummings on the House Oversight Committee. I am so

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Speaker 1: honored that you're with us here today. I have to

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Speaker 1: ask you, what have the last four years been like

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Speaker 1: for you? They've been frustrating and inspiring, and I think

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Speaker 1: for a lot of people difficult. But I've been really

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Speaker 1: impressed and excited to see how many people have educated

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Speaker 1: themselves about what corruption means and how it undermines how

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Speaker 1: all of the government functions. And you know, we've we've

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Speaker 1: been busy, you know, we've been busy trying to push

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Speaker 1: back against a president who is the most corrupt in

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Speaker 1: American history, has tried to bend every institution, and not

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Speaker 1: just to his personal political benefit, but to his personal

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Speaker 1: financial benefit. President Trump didn't want or like the idea

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Speaker 1: of political appointee holdovers. He oftentimes considered those people loyal

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Speaker 1: to Obama believed they were out to undermine him. Historically speaking,

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Speaker 1: has that been the case? Historically that has not been

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Speaker 1: the case. Right, There's a certain set of political pointees

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Speaker 1: that always leave. Most of them have to leave. You know,

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Speaker 1: when I was an appointee in the Obama administration, we

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Speaker 1: had to submit letters of resignation a month before the inauguration.

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Speaker 1: So you know, if you're hired as a political appointee,

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Speaker 1: unless statutorially your term extends beyond the president's term or

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Speaker 1: you're explicitly asked by the incoming administration to stay on,

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Speaker 1: everyone's expected to leave. All of those political pointees are

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Speaker 1: expected to leave. But the thing that's consistent is that

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Speaker 1: the reason why these positions have terms that are not

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Speaker 1: tied to the president is because they're meant to be

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Speaker 1: above politics. There are a number that are really essential

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Speaker 1: to our democracy whose positions aren't tied to the president,

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Speaker 1: and so while the president appoints them, they get to

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Speaker 1: stick around. Let's talk political appointees, because I think, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's all the judges that the Trump administration appointed to

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Speaker 1: the bench. So can you give us a broader picture

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Speaker 1: of the most influential political appointee roles that influence our government.

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Speaker 1: I think the political appointments, as a general matter, are

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Speaker 1: hired because of based on a combination of their background, experience,

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Speaker 1: and knowledge, as well as political alignment with the president

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Speaker 1: that was elected. We elected president every four years. There's

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Speaker 1: some institutional memory in the staffers that stay on board,

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Speaker 1: the career experts that stay in the government in the

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Speaker 1: executive branch, but we elect our leaders, and our leaders

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Speaker 1: get to choose the folks that implement their strategy throughout

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Speaker 1: the agencies. And so it's this mix of you come

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Speaker 1: in and you work with the career staff to understand

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Speaker 1: what's going on in the agency. Understand and you have

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Speaker 1: to decide what the new administration's priorities are and what

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Speaker 1: shifts in personnel and policy need to be made to

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Speaker 1: implement those. And so it's important to have those roles

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Speaker 1: in government. The problem has been that Donald Trump has

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Speaker 1: perverted all of the tools of government and really corrupted

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Speaker 1: a lot of these institutions that folks didn't have to

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Speaker 1: worry about before. Talk to us about who doesn't leave

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Speaker 1: give us a sense of how many senior political appointee

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Speaker 1: holdovers will be in those roles come January and could

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Speaker 1: impact Biden's ability to get his agenda done. Probably the

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Speaker 1: most glaring example is Louise de Joy, who's the Postmaster General.

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Speaker 1: Louise to Joy was this Trump mega doner. He hosted

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Speaker 1: a fundraiser with the President in his home in ten

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Speaker 1: and miraculously was selected to serve as the Postmaster General

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Speaker 1: in the spring, just as the President was ramping up

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Speaker 1: his attacks against voting by mail and the pandemic was surging.

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Speaker 1: Now this is somebody who has no fixed term, so

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Speaker 1: he could be in this role sabotaging voting by mail,

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Speaker 1: certainly for the January five election, which is before the inauguration.

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Speaker 1: But for the elections, the board has the ability to

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Speaker 1: vote vote him out and to remove him. So President

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Speaker 1: Biden could have an opportunity to select up to four

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Speaker 1: Board of governors during the early days of his term,

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Speaker 1: but they'd still be outnumbered by the Trumpet pointees, so

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Speaker 1: it would take a long time for there to be

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Speaker 1: enough vacancies to overcome the majority of Trumpet pointees on

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Speaker 1: that board. But the other route is impeachment. So well,

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Speaker 1: louis to Joy maybe the most glaring example how many

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Speaker 1: outliers are there that concern you. There's also the chair

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Speaker 1: of the Federal Election Commission, Trade Trainer, whose term doesn't

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Speaker 1: end until three the Special Counsel Henry Kerner, who again

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Speaker 1: has done admirable work in holding Trumpet pointees accountable, but

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Speaker 1: still leaves some things to be desired. His term ends

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Speaker 1: in two In addition, there are inspectors General who don't

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Speaker 1: serve a fixed term and and can only be removed

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Speaker 1: by the President of United States. And while most of

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Speaker 1: the inspectors general are hard working, even handed government employees,

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Speaker 1: what we've seen over the last year especially, is that

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Speaker 1: Trump has put a priority on loyalty in all of

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Speaker 1: his nominees, including inspectors general. So those are positions that

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Speaker 1: have a significant impact on how the government will function

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Speaker 1: on oversight over the Trump administration and the Biden administration.

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Speaker 1: And there's an open question as to whether a lot

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Speaker 1: of Trump's appointees in those positions are loyal to their

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Speaker 1: mandate under statute or are loyal to the President of

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Speaker 1: the United States that pointed them. And it's not something

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Speaker 1: that happens overnight. Mitch McConnell and President Trump are filling

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Speaker 1: a bunch of posts during this lame duck session. How

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Speaker 1: many are sort of on the docket to be appointed.

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Speaker 1: One thing that we shouldn't lose sight of is that

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Speaker 1: there are a number of these critical political appointees pending

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Speaker 1: before the Senate, and if I know Miss McConnell, like

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Speaker 1: I think most of us two, they'll get confirmed before

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Speaker 1: the end of this Congress, or at least before the

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Speaker 1: end of Trump's presidency. And I think, you know, again,

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Speaker 1: these positions don't get a lot of attention unless they're

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Speaker 1: screwing up. But the next Inspector General the Transportation Department

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Speaker 1: is going to have a huge impact over what that

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Speaker 1: investigation looks like and whether Secretary Chow or even Leader

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Speaker 1: McConnell are implicated in misconduct. And so, you know, part

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Speaker 1: of what we need to do is elevate these issues.

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Speaker 1: And as much as folks have been educated on the

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Speaker 1: different functions of government, the different roles that people play,

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Speaker 1: and how important they are, there's still more work to

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Speaker 1: be done. Then let's talk about that. In government, there

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Speaker 1: are positions where it is their job to prevent and

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Speaker 1: snuff out corruption. But what happens if the people in

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Speaker 1: those jobs are corrupt themselves? Does our system breakdown if

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Speaker 1: the people who are meant to stop corruption are corrupt?

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Speaker 1: I think if the Trump years has demonstrated anything is

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Speaker 1: that institutions are only as strong as the people within them, right.

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Speaker 1: But I think, particularly in these positions. There are some

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Speaker 1: mechanisms to investigate misconduct, right. You know, the US Postal

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Speaker 1: Service has an Inspector General that has criticized Louis to

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Speaker 1: Joy for those for the changes that he implemented when

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Speaker 1: he came in. The f EC also has an inspector General,

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Speaker 1: and the inspectors General actually have a council that serves

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Speaker 1: as an oversight body for them as well. So there

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Speaker 1: are oversight mechanisms. But the other thing to remember is

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Speaker 1: that Congress has the role to play here and they

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Speaker 1: really need to step up their oversight of these positions. Right.

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Speaker 1: Congress in a lot of ways has abdicated their responsibility

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Speaker 1: to hold the executive brands accountable, and particularly for these

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Speaker 1: roles where there are holdover positions and government watchdogs who

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Speaker 1: have engaged in corrupt activity, Congress needs to hold them

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Speaker 1: into account. For those of us that are in the

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Speaker 1: government ethics community, it's certainly a concern that whether or

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Speaker 1: not anyone sort of follows the Trump model per se,

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Speaker 1: that there's been a shift in the Overton window, and

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Speaker 1: so we're gonna work really hard to make sure that

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Speaker 1: better than Trump is not the standard for ethics in

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Speaker 1: any administration. To follow right and keep. Part of that

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Speaker 1: is closing those loopholes, reforming the system and getting buy

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Speaker 1: in from Congress, and to bolster our ethics laws on

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Speaker 1: the front end. We'll be back after the break. What

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Speaker 1: does close the loopholes mean? Who changes these rules? Right now?

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Speaker 1: We're talking all about senators that used information that they

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Speaker 1: were given because of their position, and they went and

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Speaker 1: traded stocks based on that that wasn't new. Years ago,

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Speaker 1: Congress tried to pass a law to prevent members of

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Speaker 1: Congress from doing that, and then it never went through

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Speaker 1: because they don't want the rules changed. So who is

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Speaker 1: responsible for changing the rules? I think in terms of

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Speaker 1: what's achievable, we should look at what's already on the table.

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Speaker 1: Right There was a Comprehensive Ethics Bill HR one that

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Speaker 1: was introduced in January of twenty nineteen that passed the House,

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Speaker 1: has been languishing in the Senate, and there are a

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Speaker 1: number of different measures in there that would bolster accountability

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Speaker 1: for members of Congress, ulster accountability for the president. That

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Speaker 1: is a first step, right, It's by no means of panacea,

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Speaker 1: and there's lots of work that needs to be done,

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Speaker 1: but getting that past will it send a message that

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Speaker 1: Congress is serious about ethics reform. But again, that requires

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Speaker 1: the Senate to operate. Okay, But then let's be honest.

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Speaker 1: We've been saying for four years, longer than four years,

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Speaker 1: what they need to do, what they should do. Nothing

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Speaker 1: actually changes. So what needs to be addressed to sort

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Speaker 1: of take on corruption at the highest levels of our government.

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Speaker 1: So if you're looking at what a single actor, right

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Speaker 1: like what the president could do, or what one Chamber

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Speaker 1: of Congress could do, I think if the House got

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Speaker 1: really serious about oversight and started holding up appropriations bills

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Speaker 1: and using their appropriation power as a cudgel to get

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Speaker 1: documents and information and to get accountability from the executive branch,

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Speaker 1: that would be a game changer in terms of the

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Speaker 1: balance of power between Congress and the executive branch at large.

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Speaker 1: And so it will be interesting to see what happens

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Speaker 1: when the White House and the sort of the same party.

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Speaker 1: But you really need one leg of the stool to

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Speaker 1: take the lead. President Trump is still in office, right,

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Speaker 1: we woke up today to news stories of the White

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Speaker 1: House liaison, a White House liaison being banned from being

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Speaker 1: physically inside the Justice Department because she was trying to

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Speaker 1: get information about ongoing investigations. Stories like that are worrisome.

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Speaker 1: What should we be paying attention to from an ethics

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Speaker 1: standpoint from now until janu We know Trump is corrupt,

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Speaker 1: and we also know that he has a limited amount

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Speaker 1: of time to continue drifting off of the government. And

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Speaker 1: so as much as people have talked about looking ahead,

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Speaker 1: we cannot lose sight of the fact that this president

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Speaker 1: can do more damage in six weeks as commander in

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Speaker 1: chief than pretty much any person can do to our

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Speaker 1: country in a lifetime. Then what's the first order of business.

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Speaker 1: Is it let's reform the rules so this can't take

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Speaker 1: place again, Or is it let's clean house, get these

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Speaker 1: bad folks out and get some good ones back in.

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Speaker 1: Because even if you put good ones in for the

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Speaker 1: next four years, we could go right back to Trump

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Speaker 1: time four years from now if you don't change the rules.

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Speaker 1: So I think the short answer is there can be

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Speaker 1: progress without accountability, And so our hope is that there's

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Speaker 1: the political will or the political pressure once Trump has

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Speaker 1: left office to move forward with some comprehensive ethics reform.

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Speaker 1: It will be up to the Office of Government Ethics

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Speaker 1: to work with the incoming Biden administration to ensure robust

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Speaker 1: and aggressive compliance measures to ensure that we eliminate conflicts

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Speaker 1: of interest in government. It'll be up to folks like

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Speaker 1: Henry kern Or, who is head of the Office of

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Speaker 1: Special Council, to continue investigations that he opened during the

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Speaker 1: Trump administration into violations of the Hatch Act and ensure

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Speaker 1: that there's a record of those violators so that they

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Speaker 1: can be held accountable either during this administration or for

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Speaker 1: some of them if they re enter government down the road.

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Speaker 1: We want to cut through the noise and leave you

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Speaker 1: with some time to think on this podcast. Something Donald

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Speaker 1: Trump left me thinking about is this, Even if many

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Speaker 1: of Trump's political appointees are on their way out of Washington,

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Speaker 1: what kind of lasting damage do they leave behind. How

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Speaker 1: can we bolster our system so that people are actually

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Speaker 1: held accountable. I'm Stephanie Rule and you're listening to Modern Rules,

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Speaker 1: a podcast from NBC Think, MSNBC and I Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: This podcast is hosted by me Stephanie Rule. Mike Beet

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Speaker 1: and Katrina Norvell are executive producers. Meredith Bennett Smith is

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Speaker 1: Senior editor for NBC Think and our editorial lead. The

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Speaker 1: podcast is engineered and edited by Josh Fisher. Additional production

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Speaker 1: support provided by Charles Herman, Rachel Rosenbaum and Lauren Wynn,

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Speaker 1: and special thanks to Katherine kim Are, Global head of

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Speaker 1: Digital News right here at NBC News and MSNBC. For

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Speaker 1: more thought provoking analysis, visit NBC news dot com slash

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Speaker 1: thank