1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Histories, the production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to the 2 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much for 3 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: tuning in. This is part two of a special series 4 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: on fonts that a lot of people hate. Please listen 5 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: to part one where you can hear some vim and vinegar, 6 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: not only from our super producer, mister Max Williams, but 7 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: from mister Noel Brown and from me as well. They 8 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:57,960 Speaker 1: call me Ben Noel. You remember how in a different 9 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: show we talked a bit about out the frequency illusion, 10 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: which is when you maybe you hear a word and 11 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: all of a sudden you feel like you hear that 12 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: word all the time, or you buy a car you 13 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: feel like you see that car all the time. 14 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 2: For that phenom it. 15 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, just so, it's bader Minehoff and sometimes called frequency illusion. 16 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 1: And that happened to me with papyrus uh after part 17 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 1: one of our fonts episode, I remember thinking, wow, papyrus 18 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: is everywhere and it really does seem to damage the 19 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: credibility of what's being communicated. 20 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 3: Were you compelled to go and watch the uh, the 21 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 3: the avatar films after that? I was not. I was not. 22 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 2: I I was. 23 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: It's funny because on our On another show we do 24 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: called stuff they Don't Want you to Know. We recently 25 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: recorded an episode about a mysterious bridge in Scotland, uh 26 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: called the Dog Suicide Bridge. And I didn't mention that 27 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: on that show, and I probably won't. But the one 28 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: book that is written about it is leans more into 29 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:18,320 Speaker 1: supernatural explanations and folks, the the cover font is in papyrus. 30 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 2: No it's not. 31 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: It is published. 32 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 2: Does that not just screen side published though? 33 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: But you know, research is important, so I had to 34 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: do the due diligence of read it. But but we 35 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 1: in the interim, folks, we found so many other strange 36 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: fonts such that we might have to return in another 37 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: installment to talk about controversial fonts in non Western languages. 38 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: But but for now, with some help from our research 39 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: associate Jeff Bartlett, I don't know, man, let's let's dive 40 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: into Times New Roman. 41 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 2: Why not Times New Roman? 42 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 3: Indeed, this is a font we kind of talked about 43 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 3: some of the more let's call them credible fonts. You 44 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 3: know how Vetica came up as sort of like end 45 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 3: all be all for designers in terms of just the 46 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 3: right amount of thinning of the of the joints between 47 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 3: the letters and all of that stuff, just the right 48 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 3: amount of Sarah for lack of Sarah and all that, 49 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 3: and Times New Roman sort of has earned, I guess 50 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,639 Speaker 3: itsself a place in the history of fonts. It's a 51 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 3: little bit divisive because it's sort of what you would 52 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 3: consider like a templatized sort of standard font, and for 53 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 3: that reason alone, I think it may have also earned 54 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 3: itself a bit of a place on the shit list. 55 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 2: Let's call it, you know, a fonts Yeah. 56 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: Oh, and also we talked about curning in part one, 57 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: but I don't think we defined it. Curning is the 58 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: way spacing between characters works. The Times New Roman dates 59 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: back to the original Roman Type in fourteen seventy. This 60 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: guy named Nicholas Jensen creates Roman Type, and he is 61 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: inspired by the text on ancient Roman buildings, and it 62 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: catches on pretty quickly. Chances are if you pull up 63 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,320 Speaker 1: a word process or whether that's Microsoft Word or what 64 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: have you, you're probably going to look at Times New 65 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: Roman rather than Roman Type, which you don't see so 66 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: much today. 67 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's you know, it's a font that does 68 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 3: a really good job of displaying Roman numerals for good reason, 69 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 3: you know, I mean, it really is that kind of traditional, 70 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:43,680 Speaker 3: the kind of font that you might think of as 71 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 3: being etched, you know, the product of some sort of 72 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 3: artisanal stone cutting. And as we said, this font has 73 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 3: historically been kind of the standard, you know, set font 74 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:00,559 Speaker 3: for word processors, you know, like Microsoft Word or note 75 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 3: Pad or whatever. It's the kind of the one that 76 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 3: comes up by default. But it actually started with a 77 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 3: bit of a spirit of competition, sort of similar to similar, 78 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 3: but very different to the story behind comic sans Yeah. 79 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a real hold my beer moment in the 80 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:25,840 Speaker 1: history of typeface. There's this guy, Stanley Morrison. He's already 81 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,480 Speaker 1: got his bona fides. He is an esteemed type designer, 82 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: and he starts a beef with the famous London newspaper, 83 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: The Times, and he says, look, you all are a 84 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,559 Speaker 1: bunch of stuffed shirts. You're elitist. You're out of touch 85 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,560 Speaker 1: with the modern typographical trends, which you know, to be fair, 86 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: most of the public probably didn't care about. So the 87 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:54,359 Speaker 1: Time says, okay, stan you talk so big, why don't 88 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 1: you make something better? And he says, well I will. 89 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:03,679 Speaker 1: He gets a draft named Victor Lardent to start brainstorming 90 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: with him, and they land on two goals. We're going 91 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: to be efficient and we're going to be easy on 92 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: the eyes. Efficient meaning we're going to maximize the amount 93 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: of type, the number of characters you can fit on 94 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: a line, and we're also going to make it easier 95 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: to read. We're getting a lot of this from a 96 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: great article on nypl dot org by Meredith Mann called 97 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: where did Times New Roman come from? And it's you know, 98 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: London Times New Roman. He was petty enough that he 99 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: put the name of the paper in the name of 100 00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 1: the font. 101 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 3: So in nineteen twenty six the British Medical Research Council 102 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 3: published a report diving into the legibility of print and 103 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 3: you know how this affects readers, and they issued some 104 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 3: guidelines or some recommendations right for what would achieve maximum legibility, 105 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 3: and Times New Roman attempted to really, you know, adhere 106 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 3: to these guidelines. There were some test pages that were 107 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 3: submitted to what is referred to in the article that 108 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 3: you cite had been as a distinguished ophthalmolic authority, right, 109 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 3: And so then it became, you know, once they kind 110 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 3: of got the thumbs up from said distinguished ophthalmolic authority. 111 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 3: They were able to kind of issue almost like a 112 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 3: three out of four doctors agree. You know, Times New 113 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 3: Roman is easy on the eyes. 114 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's for your health. And they said, okay, we've 115 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: got some credibility, we've got scientific analysis that's pretty good, 116 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: but we need to see we need to drive this 117 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: around the block. Essentially, we need to see how it 118 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: works when you actually read it. So members for this team, 119 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: the Report on the Legibility of Print team spent a 120 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: long time reading this and they case tested it. They 121 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: read it out during nice afternoons in the sunlight, they 122 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:13,320 Speaker 1: read it under artificial light. They tested and tested and 123 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: tested again, and they finally approved it. They called it 124 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 1: The Times New Broman, and on October third, nineteen thirty two, 125 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: The Times had their big reveal. They debuted it, and 126 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: all of the readers of the paper, The Times were 127 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: reminded daily of the importance of type and printing, at 128 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: least that's according to the monotype Recorder, which, as you 129 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: can tell, might be a bit of a bias source. 130 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:42,560 Speaker 3: Oh. 131 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:45,359 Speaker 1: This was also the first time ever that a newspaper 132 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: designed its own typeface. 133 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 3: Rightan, and that's a big deal, because as we know, 134 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:53,839 Speaker 3: you know, the history of typography is one that kind 135 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 3: of begins with actual type setting and you know, creating 136 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 3: these sets of letters and characters that were designed by 137 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 3: you know, specific individuals that worked at printing presses. So 138 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 3: typically the printing press was sort of separate from the 139 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 3: publishing or the content creation right of the news. So 140 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 3: this really was kind of a big deal. This means though, 141 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 3: that the Times actually owned this font and they had 142 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 3: exclusive rights to it, but only for a year, which 143 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 3: is interesting. How does that work? 144 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: Ben? 145 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 3: Is this like why was there such a clock put 146 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 3: on it as opposed to what would normally be a 147 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 3: longer period for copywriting or a trademarking of something. 148 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I'm guessing it's someone with pen laws. 149 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 4: But it's like, you know, how quickly does it becomes 150 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 4: kind of universal like thing? That's kind of a lot 151 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 4: of times how that stuff goes, like i know, with 152 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 4: trademarks or stuff like that, especially like brand names. Once 153 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 4: it becomes universal, like calling something a search engine googling 154 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 4: it is like an example of. 155 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:02,600 Speaker 1: Sure proprietary, right, Yeah, Yeah, It's it's tough to know 156 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: for sure. We we can speculate on a couple of things. One, 157 00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: it may have been part of the agreement the Times pitched. 158 00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 1: Two it may have been part of the negotiations between 159 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,440 Speaker 1: Stanley and the Times because he might have known he 160 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: had lightning in a bottle, and the price that they 161 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: would have to pay for exclusivity may have been pretty prohibitive. 162 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: But also to your point, Max, it would be difficult 163 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: to enforce rights after a certain amount of time. But 164 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: they it turned out they didn't really have a lot 165 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: to worry about in terms of exclusivity for the immediate 166 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: future because after those rights laps, publishers over in the 167 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: United States, especially newspaper publishers, aren't champion at the bit, 168 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: and it is champion at the bit, not chomping. They're 169 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: not champing at the bit to a adopt this new 170 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: font because they're being cheapskates. It needs more ink and 171 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: it needs a better quality of paper. And so essentially 172 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: the William Randolph Hearsts of the world across the pond 173 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:21,200 Speaker 1: are saying no, we're not nah pass. So we see 174 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: Times New Roaming come out, not first in newspapers in 175 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:29,480 Speaker 1: the US, but in books and magazines, notably Woman's Home 176 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: Companion in December nineteen forty one precisely. 177 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 3: So you're starting to see this wide adoption of this font, 178 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 3: which is a big deal, and a lot of the 179 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 3: stems from the fact that it really was incredibly legible, 180 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 3: you know, and in small print. As we know, newspapers 181 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 3: and magazines are trying their best to shove as much 182 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 3: content into as small a space as possible to maximize 183 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 3: what they can put in their publications, the amount of 184 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 3: stuff that they can cover. 185 00:11:58,440 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 2: So this was a big deal. 186 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 3: This is still a time where this is not a 187 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 3: computerized process at all. You know, this is in the 188 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 3: nineteen forties and fifties where these you know, type sets 189 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 3: were still part of the process of printing, you know, 190 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 3: physical metal letters and characters, and these were There was 191 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 3: something called punches that actually helped create the molds for 192 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,679 Speaker 3: casting these types. And they were created by a company 193 00:12:26,760 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 3: called the Monotype Corporation, and they collaborated with the Linotype Company, 194 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 3: and I believe Monotype and Linotype are still you know, 195 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 3: names that resonate within the typography community to this day. 196 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 3: These were manufacturers of machines that would do type setting, 197 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 3: so they really were very very important organizations, you know, 198 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:58,080 Speaker 3: for creating mass produced media. Both companies made sets of 199 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 3: these letters that were available for purchase. The monotype version 200 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 3: was known as Times New Roman. The linotype version was 201 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 3: just Times Roman. So if we move forward a little bit, 202 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 3: quite a bit actually into the I guess more like 203 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 3: the eighties, into the computer era, where we start to 204 00:13:17,960 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 3: see selectable fonts being used in word processing programs, like 205 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 3: you know, those created by Apple computers. Because remember, early on, 206 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,560 Speaker 3: before computers could do all of the crazy things that 207 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 3: we know and love today, they were essentially bespoke typewriters, 208 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 3: you know. So Apple licensed the linotype version and Microsoft 209 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 3: licensed the monotype version. That is why the way the 210 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 3: appearance of these fonts to this day between Apple and 211 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,880 Speaker 3: Windows machines look a little bit different. 212 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: Thanks, Can I get the more? You know, close enough 213 00:13:56,280 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: to not get a suit? That's a true story. It's 214 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: a weird historical footnote. We should also footnote that the 215 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: Times was not was not super on board with people 216 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:23,160 Speaker 1: using their font in books in any long form writing. 217 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: They said, quote, it is a newspaper type and hardly 218 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: a book type, for it is strictly appointed for use 219 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: in short lines, i e. In columns. And they went 220 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 1: back and later developed a wider version of times New 221 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: Roman to fit the longer lines of text in a book, 222 00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: and the idea that the use of a typeface affects 223 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 1: its form struck our writer man that we mentioned earlier 224 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 1: as incredibly relevant still in the modern day. You know, 225 00:14:55,920 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: a lot of books are entirely published electronically. A lot 226 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: of the stuff that the average person reads is not 227 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: a book. It's an article on the on the phone, 228 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: it's an article on a web page somewhere. And that's 229 00:15:11,240 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: why the ideas that Stanley had originally efficiency and ease 230 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: of reading, right, these are still incredibly crucial today. That's 231 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: why you see the newer kids on the printing block. No, 232 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: keep it up. It's folks like folks like Ariel and Calibri. 233 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: How do you guys pronounce it? 234 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 3: I guess maybe Calibri. Calibri sounds good. I think it's 235 00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 3: potato potato. 236 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 4: Your pronunciation sounded better than how I've ever said it. 237 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:49,320 Speaker 2: How do you say it? I don't know. Calibri. 238 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: You say Calibri with like four eyes at the end. 239 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 4: I see it selected and immediately change it. 240 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: There you go, okay, all right? 241 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: So, uh, the these typefaces are quite competitive nowadays because 242 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: if you're reading on a screen, the lack of seahs. 243 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: Remember our technical definition from part one. Seraffs are those 244 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: little dally bops at the end at the industry, the 245 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: little dongles, you know, the little hangars. Yeah, the little 246 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: weness bumps there. If you don't have seraphs, then for 247 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: most people it's easier to read a word on a screen. 248 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: But Times New Roman is almost a century old, and 249 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: it made the jump from print to digital. I think 250 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: maybe maybe nol we talk about the idea that fonts 251 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: without seraphs are easier to read. Why is that or 252 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: do we have any specifics on that? 253 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, I mean the idea being that, I 254 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 3: think it's just a little bit less distracting. It is 255 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 3: a little faster to process. Sands Sarah of fonts, you know, 256 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,000 Speaker 3: like you mentioned stuff like Tahoma ver Donna Ariel and 257 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 3: Paula Peters on Medium points out that, you know, these 258 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 3: days we're kind of blasting through text. You know, the 259 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 3: average viewer or the average reader only spends about eleven 260 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 3: seconds reading an email and around sixty seconds reading a 261 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 3: twenty page proposal of some sort. She cites sales proposals 262 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 3: so you know, since we're kind of living in a 263 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 3: culture of scanning, the more legible the better. But as 264 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 3: we mentioned at the top of the show, I think 265 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 3: Times New Roman, while very effective at communicating because of 266 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 3: its wide adoption in books, you know, magazines, newspapers, publications 267 00:17:45,720 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 3: of all kinds, because of this study that we talked 268 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 3: about that cited its incredible legibility, I think people just 269 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 3: got bored with it, you know, like like anything that 270 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 3: you kind of get inundated with. So while it was 271 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 3: an effective tool, you know, and accomplished exactly what it 272 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 3: was set out to do, when you start getting into 273 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 3: like design communities and folks that are maybe looking to 274 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 3: have things, you know, have a little bit more of 275 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 3: an aesthetic flare, it starts to become so overly recognizable 276 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 3: to the point of being cliche. 277 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you know. 278 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: Another comparison would be the fashion of business suits, right, 279 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: like double breasted suits. When you see them, you know 280 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: what I'm talking about, they scream seventies, eighties. There's still 281 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 1: a suit, there's still the reason that person is not 282 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: naked in front of you. They get the job done, 283 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: but you know, there's something aesthetic about it, and this 284 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 1: leads Paula Peters to say that modern audiences love a 285 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: font without a seraph. If you pay attention, you'll start 286 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: seeing this everywhere. We don't want to get in your 287 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: head too far, folks, but look around. Odds are you 288 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: will I'll not be far away from something written right. 289 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,959 Speaker 1: And if you are reading Latin based language, then you 290 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: are probably going to notice there's a lack of saraph 291 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: in most of the things you're seeing now, Sarah. Fonts 292 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: are easy to read if you have a really big monitor, 293 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like if you play World 294 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: of Warcraft and you're reading something on that same monitor, 295 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: times New Roman Chef Kiss beautiful. But if you're reading 296 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 1: on a mobile phone, like so many people these days, 297 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: then you're gonna see that it's a little bit more difficult. 298 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: And as Peters points out, nowadays, almost sixty two percent 299 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: of all emails are opened on a smartphone. And if 300 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: you look at the millennial generation in particular, which we 301 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: are apart, then you'll see that number goes up to 302 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 1: eighty eight percent. No one tell our bosses, but a 303 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: lot of times, a lot of times we're like in 304 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 1: bed or we're walking somewhere. 305 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, multitasking, yeah, listening to other stuff, perhaps watch 306 00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 3: researching on a computer, while looking at emails on the phone, 307 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 3: you know, all of that stuff. It's definitely part of 308 00:20:23,359 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 3: the equation for sure. I think one of the biggest 309 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 3: issues though, is just the kind of dated vibe of 310 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 3: Times New Roman and what it communicates about your brand 311 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 3: or your company, you know, as like philosophically speaking, you know, 312 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 3: everyone kind of does. 313 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 4: No. 314 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,359 Speaker 3: One wants to be considered old fashion nowadays, like everyone 315 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 3: wants to feel like they're in some way on the 316 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 3: cutting edge, and design is a big part of that, 317 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 3: you know. 318 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 2: Like you said, the medium is the message. 319 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 3: So what you put out there, whether it be your 320 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 3: style guide for communications within a company, you know, your 321 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 3: signature file, for example, companies even like ours, have a 322 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:05,199 Speaker 3: very lized and uniform way of formatting those signature files, 323 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 3: including the fought choice mm hmmm. 324 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. 325 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: If you, for instance, think about it this way. If 326 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: you are considering putting money into a new or bleeding 327 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: edge industry and you go to their website and it's 328 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,440 Speaker 1: in Times New Roman, then you're going to think they 329 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: don't get it. I don't know if these are the 330 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: people I trust for this investment, So we have to 331 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: be conscious of this. You know, it's often said by 332 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: great communicators that how you say something matters as much 333 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: as what you are saying. 334 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 2: Right. 335 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: A great deal of information in in person conversations is 336 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: conveyed via intonation and body language, which is why it's 337 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:49,959 Speaker 1: easy to misread a text. 338 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 2: Right. 339 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: The same holds true with fonts. To some degree. The 340 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:59,479 Speaker 1: thought you choose will influence the way your message is 341 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 1: interpreted by the readers, and that's why you see things 342 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: like multiple graphic designers have written their own diatribes. Dare 343 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: I say manifestos about Times New Roman. They say things 344 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: like it's corny and boring. Avoid it when you can. 345 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: It's bad, it's ugly. One person said. It makes me 346 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:20,959 Speaker 1: nervous when I see it. 347 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, we are here, we are with the poster out, 348 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 3: you know, the the reviews are in for Times New Romans, 349 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 3: like we did with with Comic Sands. Again, Yeah, I mean, 350 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 3: especially when you're looking at things through the lens of 351 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,959 Speaker 3: a designer, this is something that's absolutely going to make 352 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 3: them cringe for all the reasons. The outline, it's dated, 353 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,200 Speaker 3: it's not maybe as easy to read as some kind 354 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 3: of updated versions of the quote unquote more legible fonts, 355 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 3: and it really does say a lot about kind of 356 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 3: your attitude towards aesthetics and towards kind of being seen 357 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 3: as a little bit more on the cutting edge. 358 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,960 Speaker 1: Which led some people to say, I want a font 359 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: that makes an impact. Hey, Impact, Impact, Impact Sunday, Sunday Sunday. 360 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 3: Exactly, Impact being like one of the more aggressive thoughts. 361 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,200 Speaker 3: It's a fund that you want a font that smacks 362 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 3: you in the head like a stack of bricks. 363 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 2: Impact is for you. 364 00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:27,479 Speaker 1: Impact invented in nineteen sixty five by Jeffrey Lee. It 365 00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: is easy to read. It is sansera. It does grab 366 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: your attention, but it is in the world of zime 367 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 1: people think it's often a little too thin in the strokes. 368 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: It's amateurish. It's most commonly used on documents that have 369 00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,639 Speaker 1: been quote designed by people who don't know what they're 370 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,399 Speaker 1: doing when it comes to typefaces, and as such it 371 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: should be avoided. That is coming to us from vandalaiddesign 372 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: dot com in an article by Steven Snell. 373 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 3: Exactly, it's the kind of font that you might see 374 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 3: if you highlight something in a like let's say you're 375 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 3: using notes like on an iPhone, and then you highlight 376 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 3: it and just select heading. That's what it's going to 377 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 3: present you with, something with kind of a large amount 378 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,360 Speaker 3: of space in between the letters, which arguably does make 379 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 3: it a little easier to read, and a kind of 380 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 3: inherent boldness to it. But again it's just a little 381 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 3: bit cliche, you know. It's like sort of almost mimicking 382 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 3: the headlines of yesteryear, in the same way that comic 383 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 3: Sands was trying to mimic the way text was designed 384 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:39,919 Speaker 3: for speech bubbles and cartoons. 385 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:45,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And imagine reading an official like an official 386 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: government document or a paper of note in impact thought, 387 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: after the headline, you make a great point about the headline. 388 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,919 Speaker 1: After the headline, it would start to feel off somehow. 389 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 1: Jeffery Lee designed this font because he was in the 390 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: midst of the nineteen sixties, and the mid nineteen sixties, 391 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:14,159 Speaker 1: as we know, experienced a renaissance for bold condensed type 392 00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:19,240 Speaker 1: faces that, according to designers, probably came about through other 393 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: cut up prints and art of the day, specifically something 394 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 1: called the Schmalfett grotesque font, which had been drawn by 395 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: Volter Hottenschweiler Hottenschweiler, and because Impact was less condensed than 396 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: this other font. To your point about Kerning, designers often 397 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: use these two fonts together, and you could use Impact 398 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: for you know, Impact man maximum. 399 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 3: I love the idea of a font being grotesque, though 400 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 3: I think some designers might consider all of these fonts 401 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 3: that we're talking about, you know, in these episodes, to 402 00:25:57,800 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 3: be grotesque. 403 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 2: Shout out to small fet. 404 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: Yes, shout out this small efet And developers. Oh, here's 405 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 1: where you see Impact the most nowadays, fellow ridiculous historians. 406 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 1: You see it in memes. It's the default font for 407 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: things like caption meme. It's the default font for a 408 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: lot of those macros you can make your own. And 409 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:26,439 Speaker 1: developers use Impact because it's super readable, it's ubiquitous, it's 410 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: available at every computer. You don't have to download a 411 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: new font pack, and you don't have to read a 412 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: lot for a meme usually, right, a meme is hopefully 413 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: I don't want to sound pretentious. You can hate or 414 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: love memes or as they're called sometimes shit posts, but 415 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 1: you have to admit there's an art and beauty to 416 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: the economy of language, no question. 417 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 3: And you know, as is the case for a lot 418 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 3: of Internet culture, you know, and kind of like stuff 419 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,760 Speaker 3: that might have found its origins on forums, you know, 420 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 3: like something Awful or Penny Arcade or some of these 421 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 3: you know forums that sort of kind of got condensed 422 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 3: since now what we know has read it. I guess, 423 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,199 Speaker 3: I mean all these other There are, of course forums 424 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 3: that still exist that are more under the radar, but 425 00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 3: now Reddit has kind of become the more like mainstream 426 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,359 Speaker 3: version of a lot of this type of Internet communication. 427 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 3: Dated fonts and kind of you know, Internet relics are 428 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:26,880 Speaker 3: like a big part of the presentation for these kinds 429 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:27,280 Speaker 3: of things. 430 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: And our pal, Jeff Bartlett, not Jeffrey Lee, Jeff Bartlett 431 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 1: research associate, wants everyone to know that he has only 432 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: one tattoo and it is sapere aude Latin for dare 433 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: to know, and an old school like motto of the 434 00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: Age of Enlightenment. Says it's on his forearm, it is 435 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: in impact fonts, and he has no regrets. 436 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 3: All right, you heard it here first. Oh man, I'm 437 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 3: so excited. I'm so excs for this next one. We've 438 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 3: been teasing it from the start, good old Papyrus, you know, 439 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 3: if we're talking about fonts that are trying to invoke 440 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 3: a certain feeling, you know, a certain like you know, 441 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 3: we said comic Sands was trying to evoke whimsy or 442 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 3: sort of creativity or you know, like a lightness to 443 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 3: their communications. I'm not quite sure what Papyrus is supposed 444 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 3: to communicate in that respect. 445 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 2: Is it mysticism? Is it the age, the wisdom of 446 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 2: the ancient? 447 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: Like you're reading a scroll, you know, Max, give us 448 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: some like D and D Renaissance festival music, you know, 449 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: dungeons and dragons. Sw I mean by D and. 450 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 2: D not do not disturb. 451 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:52,000 Speaker 1: So here here's our certa intrue, maybe a fife, the flute, 452 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 1: a bit of elup. There's an American. His name is 453 00:28:54,840 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: Chris Costello. He creates Papyrus in nineteen eighty three. This 454 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: is also Yeah, this reminds me. I associate Papyrus with 455 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,920 Speaker 1: the early oh, the early computer games. I used to 456 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,000 Speaker 1: play by Sierra Entertainment. So shout out to anyone who 457 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: remembers King's Quest. But he Chris says, this is one 458 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:20,720 Speaker 1: of my proudest accomplishments. He's also Chris has his stripes. 459 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: He's a graphic designer, illustrator, web designer, and he says 460 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: similar to the creation of comic sands. He says that 461 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:33,960 Speaker 1: Papyrus was made with certain intent and it was never 462 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: meant to be used on the logos of big businesses, 463 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: on mortgage companies, construction logos, just like our Times New 464 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: Roman example. You wouldn't trust, say, a cryptocurrency outfit that 465 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: had their website in Times New Roman. You would you 466 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: trust a mortgage company in papyrus like their font ism Papyrus. 467 00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 3: I wouldn't trust a mortgage company general funds, but no, 468 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 3: definitely not. Or perhaps a realtor you know who's who's 469 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 3: whose yard signs have their name emblazoned in papyrus. Yeah, 470 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 3: it has kind of taken on the reputation of being 471 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 3: the most maligned font on the planet. 472 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, the Pepsi to the Coca Cola of comic sans. 473 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: Papyrus is famous for being misused. You see it in 474 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: business cards, letterheads, signs, et cetera. There are a lot 475 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: of websites that exist just to make fun of Papyrus. 476 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,840 Speaker 1: It gets featured ironically and all kinds of things in 477 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: television shows, in sketch comedy. If you want to sort 478 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: of undercut the character who is being cartoonish in the sketch. 479 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: Then you have them without explanation, use Papyrus and shout 480 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 1: out to Snell's sketch. We mentioned shout out to the 481 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: McSweeney's article, which I'd love to read in full, the 482 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,560 Speaker 1: Comics's articles just oh, it's so good. 483 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 2: Anyway. 484 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: Chris Costello sold the rights to his font, and he 485 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: regrets it a little bit. He says, there have definitely 486 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: been days I wish I'd never sold the rights, and 487 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: I get that there are a lot of critics, but 488 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: hate if you must. Papyrus is on over a billion 489 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: computers around the world. It's a font you can choose 490 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: right now. 491 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 3: You can definitely choose it, as we saw a designer 492 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 3: choosing it from the list of drop Town available fonts 493 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 3: in that amazing SNL short about you know, Papyrus being 494 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 3: the logo for Avatar, a multi billion dollar grossing you know, 495 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 3: fantasy science fiction franchise. Watch that if you get a 496 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 3: chance with Ryan Gosley. It puts a lot of context 497 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 3: around this, but you know, with you if you look 498 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 3: at the font though on its own, and you saw 499 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:58,120 Speaker 3: it like as a singular work, maybe before the ubiquity 500 00:31:58,160 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 3: of it, like on the cover of a comic book 501 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 3: or something. It does evoke kind of like a biblical, 502 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 3: kind of Middle Eastern mystical kind of vibe, you know, 503 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 3: And that's exactly what Costello was trying to do when 504 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 3: he was messing around with a calligraphy pen on a 505 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 3: literal piece of parchment paper, and he, you know, was 506 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 3: kind of fooling around and created these sort of ornate 507 00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 3: sort of capital letters that had these brushstrokes or kind 508 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 3: of pen strokes, you know, on the edges. And he 509 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 3: also claims that he got to this place because he 510 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 3: was on a bit of a biblical journey himself. 511 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: Reading a lot of history, spiritual and geographical about the 512 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: Middle East. And then he also said he dove into 513 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: the Biblical times. That's a quote from him, and he 514 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: was drawing a lot of ligatures and letters with these 515 00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: hairlined arrangements, and this struck a chord internally for Chris Costello, 516 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: and over the course of just a few days, worked 517 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: on these letters until he had generated an entire Roman 518 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: alphabet in all caps, and he was pretty happy with it. 519 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 1: He said, you know what, I'm gonna call this papyrus. 520 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,479 Speaker 1: I'm gonna see if I can turn it into a 521 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: font and get this ridiculous historians. This was the very 522 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: first typeface he ever worked on. This is a lot 523 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: like going into a studio and saying, I play a 524 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: little guitar, I've never recorded anything, and then boom, you've 525 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: created you know, what's a what's a hated pop song? Macharena? 526 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: You know? 527 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 3: Oh absolutely maybe you know, let's say the instrument was 528 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 3: maybe more of like a cowbell or something. Right, you 529 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 3: make the most cow the most. 530 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 2: Noted cow bell song of all time. Right, that then 531 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 2: becomes something of a trope. 532 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: And the thing is he sent this out. I wanted 533 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: to sell it, and he said, everybody rejected me. The 534 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 1: big names, the small names and type distribution, which is 535 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: an industry, honestly, folks, I had never thought about until 536 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: he talks to one company, a small outfit called Letra 537 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: Set British company, and he believes they may have been 538 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,280 Speaker 1: the creators of louram ipsum. And you guys know everybody 539 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: knows lauram ipsum, right, it's the famous placeholder text. 540 00:34:21,400 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 3: Well that yeah, or like the the whatever what like 541 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:26,720 Speaker 3: a font is missing? 542 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 2: Right? 543 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,760 Speaker 3: Or that isn't that what comes up by default the content. Yeah, 544 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,439 Speaker 3: it's it's like a mock. Oh no, it's to demonstrates. Yeah, 545 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:36,879 Speaker 3: it's to demonstrate a font because I think it has 546 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 3: or it's sort of like the quick brown fox jumps over. 547 00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:40,879 Speaker 2: The lazy dog. 548 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 3: I think it demonstrates a good number of characters in 549 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 3: a font set. So it's used to kind of showcase, 550 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 3: like you know, the letters, the style of the letters 551 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 3: in a particular font. 552 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: The I feel, Yeah, that makes sense, right, How do 553 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: my eyes feel looking at this in this font? Yeah, 554 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: that's smart too. So like Comic Sands, if there's a 555 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,320 Speaker 1: villain in the story for people who hate Comic Sands 556 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: and Papyrus, then it's Microsoft, right, because those those fonts 557 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,879 Speaker 1: may not have caught on if they weren't pre installed 558 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:23,280 Speaker 1: on Microsoft Office starting with Office ninety seven. Actually, behind 559 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: the scenes, I don't know if we want to keep 560 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: this in, but I was looking through the fonts on 561 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: the shared docs we use that I was gonna see 562 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,320 Speaker 1: if I could put it in put virus, but I 563 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: decided not. 564 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 2: We've got a show to do. 565 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 3: Well. That's the thing though, right, Like it's no longer 566 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 3: that you know, ubiquitously pre installed font that it used 567 00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 3: to be. And a lot of the history that we're 568 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 3: talking about has exactly to do with what you're saying. 569 00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,800 Speaker 3: You know, you have like a sort of taste maker 570 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,040 Speaker 3: or like a company like Microsoft that determines what goes 571 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 3: on these machines that are widely adopted, and then it's 572 00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:01,440 Speaker 3: ultimately up to creators to kind of proliferate which fonts 573 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,160 Speaker 3: become the thing, you know, but then they sort of 574 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 3: create the palletts at the tones that were available to 575 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,759 Speaker 3: designers and obviously non designers alike. Not to mention, you 576 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:13,360 Speaker 3: remember back in the day when like web pages would 577 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,760 Speaker 3: be in weird fonts, you know, but you were limited 578 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,120 Speaker 3: to what fonts were installed, whether you were a Mac 579 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,640 Speaker 3: user or a PC user. And now web pages and 580 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 3: various designs don't necessarily depend on you having that font 581 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 3: installed unless you want to actually create something. You know, 582 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 3: things are generated into like vector images or whatever, you know, 583 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 3: like high quality JPEGs. You don't have to have that 584 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 3: thuon installed, so you can get all kinds of design 585 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 3: elements that don't rely on the user having that. But 586 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,320 Speaker 3: back in the day, it was literally sourcing what fonts 587 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 3: you had on your computer. And then recreating that with 588 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,720 Speaker 3: those characters that were actually installed on your physical machines. 589 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean Microsoft Office starting in ninety seven, 590 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 3: like you said, is really to blame for, at the 591 00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 3: very least, giving folks the options that, some of which 592 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 3: became these hated fonts. 593 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 4: Yeah. 594 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, he nailed it, man. And it's strange because none 595 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: of these font creators, these designers, they're not bad guys. 596 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: They're not Bond level villains. They made something really cool 597 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: and it's just in the way people used it. 598 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 2: Now. 599 00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 1: Of course, when you're learning about the creator of Papyrus, 600 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:29,520 Speaker 1: if you hate Papyrus, you may be tempted to think 601 00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,160 Speaker 1: of this guy as some kind of Bond level graphic 602 00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:39,360 Speaker 1: design supervillain. But believe it or not, folks, he only 603 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: got the equivalent of about two five hundred dollars for 604 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 1: selling the rights, so he probably lost out on millions 605 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 1: of dollars, given that one in seven people on the 606 00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,280 Speaker 1: planet has access to Papyrus on their computer. 607 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 3: But that's the thing too, You know, a font that 608 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 3: comes pre installed like that is sort of like having 609 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 3: back to our discussion on sampling, you know, not the 610 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 3: cheese cubes, but like sampling of music. You know, if 611 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,400 Speaker 3: you buy a keyboard like a synthesizer or a you know, 612 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,239 Speaker 3: a sampler or whatever, and it has presets on it, 613 00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:19,279 Speaker 3: those are available to be used without concern over copyright clearance. Point. 614 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,520 Speaker 3: So the you know, the idea of who's making money 615 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,880 Speaker 3: off of Papyrus, the answer is probably no one really, 616 00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,800 Speaker 3: you know, after that initial deal, you know, selling the 617 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:31,520 Speaker 3: rights to it, and then it sort of gets lumped 618 00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 3: in with this list of presets. As we know, fancy 619 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 3: er font sets are quite expensive because you are paying 620 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 3: for the rights to be able to use that font 621 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 3: in whatever commercial designs you might you know, want to. 622 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 2: Use it in. 623 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 3: But since Papyra has already pre installed on your system 624 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,320 Speaker 3: and it comes with quote unquote you know, your software 625 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 3: that you already have, you can use it however you want. 626 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,400 Speaker 3: So it's not like every time someone, you know, I 627 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 3: don't think that anyone got paid for Papyro is being 628 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 3: used in the Avatar logo. I would also argue that 629 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,240 Speaker 3: it's possible, I don't know specifically, but that the version 630 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,240 Speaker 3: of Papyrus on the Avatar logo was adjusted or tweaked 631 00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 3: in some way. You can you can you can make 632 00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 3: tweaks to like font sets and stuff and then kind 633 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:17,479 Speaker 3: of make it your own. But I don't know, Max, 634 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 3: what do you think, like, do you think if someone 635 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,760 Speaker 3: is using one of these fonts, is there anyone getting 636 00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 3: a check? Are there like font residuals? I'd like to 637 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,760 Speaker 3: answer as well, after you mix, Yeah. 638 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 4: Probably maybe, But to the thing, it's like, do you 639 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 4: if you make it just slightly different? So side note, 640 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 4: I watched the Papiates sketch right before we came on, 641 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 4: and it Chris Read is playing I guess Ryan Goslin's friend, 642 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 4: and he's like, hey man, it might have started with Papyrus, 643 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,760 Speaker 4: but it's like slightly different. So I mean, I'm guessing 644 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 4: that's probably a tricky thing where if you make it 645 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 4: just different enough and it's probably it's probably just very 646 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,840 Speaker 4: much soaked in minutia. 647 00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah. 648 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: I also like to think that maybe their budget was 649 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,839 Speaker 1: just so close that they said we have to use 650 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 1: one of the pre installed thoughts. It's down between Papyrus 651 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: and comic Sands. But you know, shout out to Costello. 652 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: It sounds like a really cool guy. He says, I'm 653 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:17,879 Speaker 1: not embarrassed about this. You know the fact that it's 654 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: one of the world's most widely recognizable fonts. Even if 655 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 1: that means it's overused, it means there's just as many 656 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: people out there who love it as who hate it. 657 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:33,760 Speaker 1: And he also says stay humble. I mean, Chris feels 658 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,720 Speaker 1: like a good guy to hang out with, you guys. 659 00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,760 Speaker 1: He also says telling people I created Papyrus is always 660 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,720 Speaker 1: a good topic for humorous conversation. It always gets a laugh. 661 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:47,359 Speaker 1: How can you put a price on that? That's nice, man, 662 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 1: that's very well adjusted. 663 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:53,920 Speaker 2: I think excellent conversation starter for sure. 664 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:55,759 Speaker 3: You know what an interesting thing to Hey, I mean, 665 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,320 Speaker 3: did this guy go on to design any other fonts? 666 00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 2: Is his first one out of the gate? Right? 667 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 3: Did he try to you know, like, I guess repair 668 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 3: his repute? I mean, I thought he feels like it's 669 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 3: a bad reputation. But you know, it seemed like he 670 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 3: was just sort of a dabbler in font design. I 671 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,720 Speaker 3: gotta wonder, like, is this guy what's he up to now? 672 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,920 Speaker 1: He's got a website Chriscostello dot design, and you can 673 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: see his collection of fonts, which include Blackstone. He also 674 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: has Mirage, letter Press text and Papyrus, and then he 675 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,080 Speaker 1: has one called virus. This is this is a rabbit 676 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: hole to link into, and I think we've we've hit 677 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 1: some of the big one. Snow will doubtlessly hear from 678 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: our fellow ridiculous historians who have pet peeve fonts of 679 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,320 Speaker 1: their own. But I believe we have to mention, just 680 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,360 Speaker 1: just at least the once, we have to mention how 681 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: wing Dings came about. As as we're wrapping. 682 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:55,360 Speaker 2: Up this series. 683 00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,360 Speaker 1: Wing Dings is the thing that looks like a bunch 684 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:04,280 Speaker 1: of strange nonsense. You know, it looks like the computer 685 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: is taken over and it doesn't speak your language. But 686 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 1: according to a great article by Phil Edwards over in Vox, 687 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: why the wing Dings font exists, there are multiple versions 688 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:20,440 Speaker 1: of wing dings. It's one of the early days of emoji. 689 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:22,840 Speaker 1: It could give you an image and scale it. 690 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,759 Speaker 3: Yeah, at the very least like clip art, right like 691 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:28,439 Speaker 3: it was a way. We talked about this a little 692 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 3: bit in the last episode that it was. Yeah, to 693 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,480 Speaker 3: your point, fonts are also scalable. That's that's a very 694 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,919 Speaker 3: important distinction that you made there, Bend, Because you can 695 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 3: blow up a font to a massive size and it's 696 00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 3: not going to have any pixelation, right, I mean depending 697 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 3: on how you are outputting it, like in whatever you know, 698 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,120 Speaker 3: design software you're using. But a font is essentially like 699 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:57,239 Speaker 3: information telling a computer how to recreate something that is scalable, 700 00:42:57,440 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 3: whether it's tiny or whether it's massive. It's not the 701 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,120 Speaker 3: same as like blowing up a low resolution JPEG, which 702 00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 3: of course is going to cause all kinds of you know, 703 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:09,439 Speaker 3: horrible blurring and pixelation and all that. This is neat 704 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:12,799 Speaker 3: because these are little individual images. Some of the ones 705 00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,279 Speaker 3: that they pull on the vox article or like a 706 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 3: little hand or a little disc drive, you know, or 707 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,320 Speaker 3: like a floppy disc. Some of them are just little 708 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 3: symbols like like an X, you know in a circle, 709 00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,759 Speaker 3: or you know, certain kind of characters that might be 710 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:32,200 Speaker 3: look look like runs or something like that. Right, There 711 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 3: were multiple iterations of wing dings as well. We had 712 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:37,839 Speaker 3: the og wing dings. 713 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:39,960 Speaker 2: Which would have like, you know, there's like a OM 714 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 2: symbol in there. 715 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:43,799 Speaker 3: There's you know, like a little redical or whatever you 716 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,080 Speaker 3: call it, sort of like the way the Zodiac Killer 717 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,680 Speaker 3: signed you know, his missives to the press. Then you 718 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 3: had wing dings, two, wingedings three. Then of course, who 719 00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:59,400 Speaker 3: could forget web dings, and then something called zapp ding bats, 720 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 3: which I'm not familiar with, but that's where you start. 721 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,480 Speaker 3: They do start to resemble like the emojis that we 722 00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:10,800 Speaker 3: know today, like a peace sign, explosions like a little 723 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 3: you know, kind of a firecracker pop, or things like snowflakes. 724 00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 1: And of course flowers. Charles Bigelow, who's one of the 725 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:23,800 Speaker 1: co creators of wing dings in its various forms, says 726 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:29,560 Speaker 1: that his personal favorite will be the floral designs. And 727 00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: we want to to squeeze in just a little explanation 728 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:34,400 Speaker 1: about wing dings. 729 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:36,600 Speaker 2: What a ride this has been. 730 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,720 Speaker 1: We may have to return to fonts in the future 731 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 1: because this addresses so many things that we find ridiculous 732 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:49,120 Speaker 1: about history, right, social dynamics, human psychology, How small things 733 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:53,279 Speaker 1: can have such an outsized influence. A great time with 734 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,880 Speaker 1: this one, and thanks to super producer mister Max Williams, 735 00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 1: thanks to research associate Jeff I didn't know about the 736 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: impact tattoo. 737 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:02,640 Speaker 2: Oh I did neither. 738 00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:04,239 Speaker 3: And I just have to add one last little thing 739 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:09,439 Speaker 3: because I questioned what the deal was with wing ding dingbats. 740 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 3: Apparently dingbats are actually refer to a particular. 741 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,800 Speaker 2: Type of tool that was used in printing. 742 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:23,920 Speaker 3: They were small pieces of reusable shapes that could be 743 00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:27,600 Speaker 3: slotted into texts and used like to kind of add 744 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 3: a little bit of flair to a book printing, think 745 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,640 Speaker 3: about maybe something that might be used in chapter headings, 746 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,279 Speaker 3: or even like page numbers or little kind of bespoke 747 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,480 Speaker 3: like frames on the edge of pages. 748 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 2: Things like that. They were called dingbats. 749 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,839 Speaker 3: So, you know, the more you know, I love how 750 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:47,840 Speaker 3: a lot of this stuff, or most of this stuff 751 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 3: does have references to you know, antiquity into like the 752 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 3: age that's even pre printing press. And then obviously the 753 00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:59,120 Speaker 3: printing press becomes the earliest form of type setting, and 754 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:01,960 Speaker 3: then it you know, trans decisions into the computer aid. 755 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,480 Speaker 3: So yeah, now I'm with you, man. This is a 756 00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:07,319 Speaker 3: really really fun topic. And I don't know some of 757 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,600 Speaker 3: these fonts. I think maybe you're a little unfairly maligned. 758 00:46:11,040 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 3: I don't hate comic sands. Maybe as much as the 759 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 3: design community might, none of these really inspire that much 760 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,360 Speaker 3: like ire from me personally. I'm more interested in the 761 00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,959 Speaker 3: history and the question of like why certain people hate these, 762 00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,280 Speaker 3: So I hope we did a decent job in answering those. 763 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 4: I don't know if y'all have noticed this, but I 764 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 4: have been returning emails and comic fans. 765 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:32,600 Speaker 2: Since I see you. 766 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:33,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw it. 767 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:34,400 Speaker 2: I saw it. 768 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,040 Speaker 1: And also thanks to you guys for let me include 769 00:46:37,840 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: what was going to be a wing Ding's Dia tribe. 770 00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:43,160 Speaker 1: But after I had found and read that box article, 771 00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,840 Speaker 1: I just really enjoyed the history of it like you 772 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 1: guys are saying. And thanks of course to Jonathan Strickly 773 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,760 Speaker 1: and aka the Quister Christopher hasiotis here in spirit, Eve's 774 00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 1: Jeff Coat, Gabe Luzier who is killing it over on 775 00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,080 Speaker 1: this day in history. 776 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:03,319 Speaker 3: Class, and of course research Associate extraordinary Jeff Bartlett. Thank 777 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,920 Speaker 3: you for being our sharpa on this font journey. Uh 778 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,600 Speaker 3: and you Ben It's it's been a it's been a 779 00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:10,200 Speaker 3: wild ride. 780 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:13,840 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. San Seraph all the way. We'll see you 781 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:14,640 Speaker 2: next time, folks. 782 00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,320 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 783 00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,520 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.