Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. It is the end of the calendar
Speaker 1: year and we're we're going to take a break to
Speaker 1: get with our families, our loved entities. And while we're
Speaker 1: doing that, we wanted to share some of our favorite
Speaker 1: classic episodes. This one is another episode about the high seas.
Speaker 1: You guys, the Curse submarine.
Speaker 2: All the mighty Curse and how it fell.
Speaker 3: Yes, more than five hundred feet long, carrying missiles the
Speaker 3: size of small aeroplanes.
Speaker 4: It's a big boy.
Speaker 1: And here's the thing, even if you're a big boy
Speaker 1: nuclear sub you're still very small in comparison to the
Speaker 1: system that we call the ocean.
Speaker 4: So it was destroyed in.
Speaker 1: One of the most catastrophic submarine disasters in history. The
Speaker 1: entire crew was lost, and even now, decades later, as
Speaker 1: we learned back in twenty twenty, you'll find plenty of
Speaker 1: people who believe this accident was not an accident after all.
Speaker 1: One quick note before we dive in today, we had
Speaker 1: a few grimlins in the proverbial machine during this recording.
Speaker 1: As a result, you may notice a little bit of
Speaker 1: strangeness with the microphones in this episode, especially my own. However,
Speaker 1: we managed to keep those audio shenanigans to a minimum.
Speaker 1: We hope you enjoy the show.
Speaker 5: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is
Speaker 5: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 5: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 5: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 4: My name is Matt, my name is Nola.
Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with
Speaker 1: our super producer Paul Mission Control decades. Most importantly, you
Speaker 1: are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff
Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. We're diving deep today
Speaker 1: in what will come to be the first terrible pun
Speaker 1: of this episode, into a story that some people may
Speaker 1: remember right as one of those many ephemeral headlines that
Speaker 1: circulated in two thousand. In two thousand and one, but
Speaker 1: this was brought to our attention by one of our
Speaker 1: fellow listeners, a fellow conspiracy realists, who, for the sake
Speaker 1: of comic book Nerdery, we will refer.
Speaker 6: To as naymar Hey, guys, So, I just got out
Speaker 6: of the Navy working on submarines, and as such, I've
Speaker 6: got a couple submarine conspiracies that you may or may
Speaker 6: not know about.
Speaker 7: So the first one is the Curse, which that made
Speaker 7: it international news. And two thousand, I think it was
Speaker 7: two thousand, the Russian submarine that was spying on United
Speaker 7: States and and and NATO submarines and warships doing doing
Speaker 7: a bunch of a bunch of exercises and it blew up.
Speaker 7: So the official story is that a torpedo blew up.
Speaker 7: But I know people who have been who are on
Speaker 7: the boat one of the submarines, and they were listening
Speaker 7: to the Curse, and I know one of them has
Speaker 7: told me it definitely got shot by another boat. One
Speaker 7: said it definitely did not, and and some of the
Speaker 7: others have have refused to talk about it. So who
Speaker 7: knows what's going on there? That one's definitely worth looking into.
Speaker 1: Nay more, this is a fantastic question, and you've actually
Speaker 1: you've given us a lot to chew on here such
Speaker 1: that we talked off air, and this may be the
Speaker 1: first of multiple submarine related conspiracies, because let's talk about submarines.
Speaker 1: The weirdest thing about a submarine is that they are
Speaker 1: inherently conspiratorial. They are these mysterious, at times nuclear powered
Speaker 1: craft that are as we record sneaking through the ocean
Speaker 1: depths across the planet. You know, a submarine is explicitly
Speaker 1: designed to deceive, to occlude its presence. The location and
Speaker 1: the capabilities of a submarine are often the stuff its
Speaker 1: owners don't want you to know, and so it's no
Speaker 1: surprise that submarines are themselves the subject of numerous conspiracies.
Speaker 1: So today we're diving into the mystery of one submarine
Speaker 1: in particular, as you requested, Naymor, what happened to the curse?
Speaker 1: Here are the facts.
Speaker 3: So work on the kur Gan in nineteen ninety and
Speaker 3: the sub officially launched in nineteen eighty four, and it
Speaker 3: was massive.
Speaker 4: It was a massive deal.
Speaker 3: But it was also physically massive, at five hundred and
Speaker 3: eight feet nineteen thousand, four hundred tons. It was capable
Speaker 3: of launching missiles the size of a small aircraft that
Speaker 3: would absolutely decimate any targets that were unfortunate enough to
Speaker 3: be in its path, and that.
Speaker 4: Could be up to four hundred miles away.
Speaker 3: NATO actually called it an Oscar two class, which is
Speaker 3: a nuclear powered cruise missile submarine owned and operated by
Speaker 3: the Russian Navy and until two thousand and seven, conversion
Speaker 3: of the US Navy's Ohio class subs from ballistic missiles
Speaker 3: to these types of more long range cruise missiles. The
Speaker 3: Oscar two class submarines were the largest of their type
Speaker 3: in the world.
Speaker 2: In this particular Oscar two class submarine, the Cursk was
Speaker 2: a big deal, and others in this class were explicitly
Speaker 2: designed to defeat the biggest threats that were seeing in
Speaker 2: the US Navy's command, the US Aircraft Carrier Group, So
Speaker 2: the machines that are out there floating that function as
Speaker 2: a full military command base and airport.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's important to remember that until about two thousand
Speaker 1: and seven, the Oscar two class was the largest type
Speaker 1: a submarine of its type in the entire world. The
Speaker 1: only reason that changed is because some Ohio class subs
Speaker 1: that originally launched ballistic missiles were converted to also launch
Speaker 1: cruise missiles. The Kursk had the power in theory to
Speaker 1: sink an aircraft carrier with a single torpedo that was
Speaker 1: specifically something called a Type sixty five. These torpedoes carried
Speaker 1: a nine hundred and ninety pound warhead. This is serious stuff,
Speaker 1: and you know, to be very clear when we say
Speaker 1: aircraft carrier in this sense. We mean exactly what Matt
Speaker 1: is talking about here, the the ship that is the
Speaker 1: the carrier where you see the jets launching and stuff.
Speaker 1: Aircraft carriers don't ride solo. They roll deep that you'll
Speaker 1: we have to remember that an aircraft carrier is one
Speaker 1: part of what is it called an aircraft carrier battle group,
Speaker 1: and that includes other ships. It changes depending on the mission,
Speaker 1: but you know, it includes things like guided missile cruisers, destroyers,
Speaker 1: frigates like this. This is not the only thing on
Speaker 1: the album. An aircraft carrier battle group is kind of
Speaker 1: like a Posse track, But the aircraft carrier is the
Speaker 1: you know, is the tupac?
Speaker 8: Uh?
Speaker 4: Really quickly, what is a frigate?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, frigate is is an old term. I love
Speaker 1: so many maritime terms. There's also like brigotine. A frigate
Speaker 1: is meant to protect other warships and some and I
Speaker 1: think they specialized. Again, I'm not a member of the Navy,
Speaker 1: but I think they specialized in anti submarine warfare.
Speaker 3: Pretty often every time I hear I just want to say,
Speaker 3: frigin frigate. You know, it's just it's got the ring
Speaker 3: to it. But please let us right the ship and
Speaker 3: move forward in the episode there we.
Speaker 1: Go, There we Go. So, aside from being powerful in
Speaker 1: offensive terms, the Curse was also very It was a
Speaker 1: source of pride for the Russian military because its structure
Speaker 1: was purportedly incredibly robust and sturdy in a way that
Speaker 1: would worry the members of NATO.
Speaker 2: Yes, the whole design of this craft made it very, very,
Speaker 2: at least on paper, difficult to sink, to breach the hull,
Speaker 2: to cause major damage to this thing. It had a
Speaker 2: double hole design, So just think about this way on
Speaker 2: the outer the exoskeleon. Essentially the outer hole was stainless steel.
Speaker 2: It had all kinds of different metals in their nickel, chromium,
Speaker 2: and it had extremely good resistance to things like corrosion
Speaker 2: and natural processes that would weaken the whole system. And
Speaker 2: something's really interesting. These metals actually have a bit of
Speaker 2: a weak magneticism to them. And something really interesting about
Speaker 2: these metals nickel and chromium, you know, combined there with steel,
Speaker 2: Both of these metals were very difficult to detect with
Speaker 2: this thing that the United States military was using a
Speaker 2: magnetic anominally detector. And because those metals have those weak
Speaker 2: signals as it's traveling through the sea, through the ocean,
Speaker 2: it's not as easily detected because of that weak signature
Speaker 2: of those metals contain you know. Then you get into
Speaker 2: the inner hole and you're looking at two inch thick
Speaker 2: steel's It's really cool because the structure of that outer
Speaker 2: and inner hole essentially made this thing so strong that
Speaker 2: you could just plow through ice out in the Arctic
Speaker 2: somewhere if you needed to, just to break through. And
Speaker 2: the way this structure I mean already we're kind of
Speaker 2: describing here is just how strong this thing is.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: It was compared a lot to the Titanic, at least
Speaker 2: in some of the writing that I saw about the
Speaker 2: ship or the boat, excuse me, the submarine, because it
Speaker 2: was built with these compartments, separate separated compartments that if
Speaker 2: one were to be breached and a flood was to
Speaker 2: occur in one of those, you could turn, you could
Speaker 2: shut that thing down, lock it off, and then be
Speaker 2: safe in another compartment. Even if the submarine were to
Speaker 2: sink all the way down to the ocean floor, the
Speaker 2: crew would theoretically be able to survive in one of
Speaker 2: the other compartments if they did. You know, seal themselves
Speaker 2: in essentially and had enough oxygen. But that comparison to
Speaker 2: the Titanic about being unsinkable and that structure is very interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know if it's our own kind of
Speaker 1: personal selection bias or something, but it seems like historically,
Speaker 1: whenever we run into these so called indestructible or impregnable structures,
Speaker 1: something goes terribly awry. It's like putting a target on
Speaker 1: your invention's back. This boat was able to do something
Speaker 1: amazing and possibly something that would terrify some of our
Speaker 1: land lubbers in the audience. The Cursk was able to
Speaker 1: remain submerge for up to one hundred and twenty days.
Speaker 1: That means if you were on the crew of the Curse,
Speaker 1: it was theoretically possible that you would sink under the
Speaker 1: surface of the briny blue and you would not see
Speaker 1: the sun or see the sky until almost half a
Speaker 1: year had passed.
Speaker 2: I just have to say I have no military experience,
Speaker 2: but the concept of doing that for one hundred and
Speaker 2: twenty days straight, psychologically, I would not want to be
Speaker 2: in there, trapped with what one hundred maybe one hundred
Speaker 2: plus human beings inside that thing. No thank you.
Speaker 3: I can't even imagine just the logistics of that. And
Speaker 3: just like the sanitary conditions, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: I'm sure you know there's there's things to help keep
Speaker 3: things from becoming from deteriorating into a state of you know, disgustingness,
Speaker 3: I guess for lack of a better word, but it
Speaker 3: seems like it'd be pretty stinky down there with all
Speaker 3: those men's you know, bodies.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what's That's one of the first things I
Speaker 1: thought of too, Because we have we have amazing technology
Speaker 1: for you know, recycling air, we have an amazing water
Speaker 1: reclamation technology as a species, but for some reason, our
Speaker 1: entire speed just hasn't figured out a way to get
Speaker 1: around the funk, you know, just that locker room stank
Speaker 1: with an a that occurs whenever you have a bunch
Speaker 1: of a bunch of people in a small claustrophobic situation.
Speaker 1: And you know, we're not we want to be completely fair,
Speaker 1: Like the curse was large enough and to a degree
Speaker 1: opulent enough that senior officers did have their own staterooms.
Speaker 1: It's not like everybody was three people to a bunk
Speaker 1: or something. But still, life on a submarine is very,
Speaker 1: very challenging, and the Curse itself actually only completed a
Speaker 1: single mission during its time, which sounds unusual for such
Speaker 1: a juggernaut of the waves. During five years of service,
Speaker 1: it completed one six month deployment to the Mediterranean Sea.
Speaker 1: This was in nineteen ninety nine, and they were going
Speaker 1: to monitor US naval response to the Kosovo crisis that
Speaker 1: was occurring. Now you might ask yourself, why spend so
Speaker 1: much time, blood and treasure on the creation of a
Speaker 1: craft like this and not really take it out, you know,
Speaker 1: not really give it a spin around the global block
Speaker 1: It turns out there were I don't know if it's
Speaker 1: fair to say Russia was broke, but they had some
Speaker 1: serious money issues going on, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's crazy.
Speaker 3: So they spent all this money, you know, top dollar
Speaker 3: to make this impregnable, you know, b myth of a
Speaker 3: seafaring war machine, and they didn't factor in a little detail,
Speaker 3: you know, the the go go juice, the stuff that
Speaker 3: makes it go, literally, the fuel. They didn't have it
Speaker 3: had built it into the budget. There was an absolute
Speaker 3: funding crisis that was so serious that many members of
Speaker 3: the Northern Fleet.
Speaker 4: Had gone unpaid for quite a while. In the mid nineties.
Speaker 1: Imagine that. Okay, so now let's paint the situation with
Speaker 1: a little bit of a sharper brush to your point, Noel,
Speaker 1: You're trapped on a submarine. You might be underwater for
Speaker 1: four months. Everything stinks of funk and sweat. And the
Speaker 1: other one hundred something people with you are non consensual volunteers, right.
Speaker 1: They signed up for the Navy with the expectation that
Speaker 1: they would be paid for it, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: you're not getting the checks. And that doesn't mean you
Speaker 1: can get off the boat. You're still stuck. It's terrible,
Speaker 1: and you know, I don't want to be glib about it,
Speaker 1: because the story of the curse takes a very violent
Speaker 1: turn almost twenty years ago today.
Speaker 2: Yes, so on August tenth, in the year two thousand, well,
Speaker 2: something strange happened. There was an unexpected disaster, at least
Speaker 2: according to the official story. Right, there's an unofficial disaster
Speaker 2: that occurs during an exercise out at sea. It was
Speaker 2: called Summer X, And the way the story goes, there
Speaker 2: was a tremendous explosion inside of the submarine itself that
Speaker 2: ended up just tearing the thing into several pieces. Specifically
Speaker 2: the front end, the nose of it was completely ripped
Speaker 2: off of the submarine itself, and there were other pretty
Speaker 2: large parts of this submarine that were completely separated and
Speaker 2: blown apart and shoved into one another. And again, this
Speaker 2: is a submarine. You have to remember, it is operating
Speaker 2: underneath the surface of the water. So unless you are
Speaker 2: specifically tracking this thing with some kind of sophisticated, high
Speaker 2: powered or some other technology, you don't know where it is.
Speaker 2: If you're on the surface, let's say, even if you're
Speaker 2: in a frigate or another ship or something that's monitoring
Speaker 2: the situation, you don't know exactly where they are. But
Speaker 2: there were crews on surrounding ships or nearby ships, and
Speaker 2: the only way that they knew something had gone wrong
Speaker 2: was that they felt the impact or essentially the boom
Speaker 2: the implosion that occurred below, and you could feel it
Speaker 2: essentially being on another craft.
Speaker 1: This disaster occurred in an area known as the Barrence Scene.
Speaker 1: The Barren See is a part of the Arctic Ocean.
Speaker 1: It's off the northern coast of Norway and Russia, and
Speaker 1: this geography is important because that second, much larger explosion
Speaker 1: created an impact that could be felt as far away
Speaker 1: as Alaska. Later research by seismologists would conclude that this
Speaker 1: was the force was equivalent to that of an earthquake,
Speaker 1: measuring four point two on the Richter scale, which means
Speaker 1: that which of course would lead you to rightly assume
Speaker 1: that munitions were part of the explosion, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, not just a fire or something.
Speaker 3: Yes, and it follows that there were no survivors. All
Speaker 3: one hundred and eighteen members of the crew of the
Speaker 3: Kursk perished in the disaster. And you know, this was
Speaker 3: something that Vladimir Putin, who was recently elected at the time.
Speaker 3: It's hard to imagine a time when Vladimir Putin wasn't
Speaker 3: the head of this part of the world, but there
Speaker 3: certainly was, and he had recently been elected and staked
Speaker 3: a lot of his reputation on pushing for this project.
Speaker 3: So this was a big blow to him personally. And
Speaker 3: it wasn't a good look either that he happened to
Speaker 3: be on vacation at the time, and this did not
Speaker 3: play well with relatives of the crew members. I watched
Speaker 3: a documentary about this, and there there were a lot
Speaker 3: of I guess hearings where relatives of the crew members
Speaker 3: were just shrieking in Russian and just at the top
Speaker 3: of their lungs, cursing Putin and this regime and saying,
Speaker 3: how could you let these men live in a tiny
Speaker 3: box for you know, however long we know it was.
Speaker 4: It was quite a long time with no pay.
Speaker 3: We know that happened too, and then just you know,
Speaker 3: let them die like dogs, basically, you know, so a
Speaker 3: lot of emotion. They were absolutely aghast and enraged at
Speaker 3: the way this disaster was handled. They argued that the
Speaker 3: official statements were absolute disinformation, absolute bs. Was there a
Speaker 3: cover up? We'll talk about that after a quick word
Speaker 3: from our sponsor.
Speaker 1: Let's walk through the immediate after math of this disaster.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's tempting to say that, of course,
Speaker 1: anyone will react with intense grief and emotion when they
Speaker 1: lose a loved one, but it's crucial for us to
Speaker 1: emphasize that the claims of the relatives of these crew
Speaker 1: members were not just made up out of whole cloth.
Speaker 1: They didn't just wake up for no reason and decide
Speaker 1: to accuse the government of deceiving them. Later research found
Speaker 1: that there were intense problems with the investigation the Russian Navy,
Speaker 1: according to official sources, initially did not realize an accident
Speaker 1: had occurred. More than six hours passed before an initial
Speaker 1: search even began. And to your point about those compartments, Matt,
Speaker 1: does that mean, like you can look out layouts of
Speaker 1: these nine compartments in the curse. Does that mean that
Speaker 1: some of the one hundred and eighteen people aboard were
Speaker 1: able to escape whatever that initial blast was and move
Speaker 1: to a safer compartment. Would six hours have saved them?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 3: Eleven hours later the Navy declared an emergency. Finally, later
Speaker 3: research showed that all crew members had died by that point. Normally,
Speaker 3: there's a you know, cash of safety gear on these
Speaker 3: types of subs rescue buoys which automatically deploy like an
Speaker 3: escape pod in a spaceship or something, but that did
Speaker 3: not occur. The booy of the Curse had been disabled.
Speaker 3: It took the Navy sixteen hours to find the wreckage
Speaker 3: and to start to kind of like figure out what
Speaker 3: had happened. Rumors were circulating the sub may have collided
Speaker 3: with a mine, which we know exists. We know there's like,
Speaker 3: you know, still potentially isn't there one in Savannah Bend,
Speaker 3: and we talk about that in Savannah, Georgia.
Speaker 4: There's a mine somewhere out there in the harbor.
Speaker 1: It's a nuclear nuclear way.
Speaker 3: Oh even worse. But still we have heard tell of
Speaker 3: still active minds out there, you know, from war and
Speaker 3: this was a again a rumor, but that it had
Speaker 3: been an undeployed mine that it collided with inadvertently.
Speaker 2: Yeah, from way back in World War Two. There are
Speaker 2: you know, there are all kinds of rumors that were
Speaker 2: circulating around at the time. It is it makes total sense, right,
Speaker 2: how on earth could this have happened? We were doing
Speaker 2: some kind of official exercise. Nothing could have should have
Speaker 2: gone wrong. Maybe there was a friendly fire situation, an
Speaker 2: accidental you know, deployment of a torpedo that ended up
Speaker 2: hitting a friendly target in this way, right if you're
Speaker 2: if you're imagining yourself as as the Russian military or
Speaker 2: some of the the commanders there. And the thing is,
Speaker 2: there's all kinds of other stuff that people have said
Speaker 2: over the years about what may have happened. But now
Speaker 2: almost twenty years, almost twenty years to the day later,
Speaker 2: the question still remains what actually happened inside that submarine
Speaker 2: and to that submarine on that day, August tenth, two thousand.
Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. The official explanation, even at
Speaker 1: first was suspicious. There were problems that cropped up with
Speaker 1: it immediately. The primary issue was the high amount of
Speaker 1: secrecy involved. The Russian government refused all international offers of assistance,
Speaker 1: which can you know, if you're suspicious, it can function
Speaker 1: as tacit confirmation that they had perhaps some secret technology
Speaker 1: on there or something that they were not comfortable with
Speaker 1: other nations discovering. These things went back and forth. So
Speaker 1: we're going to jump around in time just a little
Speaker 1: bit right now. The official explanation is that the authorities
Speaker 1: say the crew of the Curse was preparing to load
Speaker 1: a dummy torpedo, a practice torpedo, right, because these are
Speaker 1: naval exercises. That doesn't mean it's actual war, so they
Speaker 1: don't want to shoot genuine torpedoes. And this torpedo that
Speaker 1: they were loading, which was a sixty five seventy six
Speaker 1: kit torpedo, had two problems. First, it contained a liquid
Speaker 1: called high test peroxide. This is not the kind of
Speaker 1: stuff that you put in your hair when you're a
Speaker 1: teenager or something. Second problem, they claimed there was a
Speaker 1: manufacturing defect, and that there was a faulty weld in
Speaker 1: the casing of the sub of the torpedo. And so
Speaker 1: when they were loading this on, this high test peroxide
Speaker 1: or HTP leaked from this faulty weld, and it caused
Speaker 1: the ed who's fuel to explode. That fuel is kerosene, right,
Speaker 1: and kerosene is a friend of explosions.
Speaker 2: And remember, by the way, this is a sixty five
Speaker 2: type weapon. That's the aircraft carrier killer that we were
Speaker 2: talking about, A very large weapon or a very large
Speaker 2: piece of ammunition, I don't what you call it around
Speaker 2: if you will. So, so when the explosion occurred, mixed
Speaker 2: with the things we're talking about there, the kerosene and
Speaker 2: the HTP, it blew off the inner and outer doors
Speaker 2: to the torpedo, so the things that are really helping
Speaker 2: in a lot of ways to keep the water out,
Speaker 2: which is you know, generally a good thing when you're
Speaker 2: inside a metal container inside the ocean. Then it started
Speaker 2: a fire. It destroyed the bulkhead, the separator essentially between
Speaker 2: the first and second compartments, like the ones we were
Speaker 2: talking about there where the control room, by the way,
Speaker 2: was in one of those So when that bulkhead was
Speaker 2: destroyed between the first and second compartments and that fire's going,
Speaker 2: you actually had probably at least in all likelihood most
Speaker 2: if not all of the crew within the control room
Speaker 2: that people running the boat, running the sub they probably
Speaker 2: all perished or at least were badly injured and perish
Speaker 2: soon after. That really really messed up. And then we
Speaker 2: have that second explosion that was noticed by a lot
Speaker 2: of the crew that was on the surface, and that
Speaker 2: really is an issue when you don't have access to
Speaker 2: controls of a ship that you were on or a boat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no kidding. And this we know that that
Speaker 1: initial blast occurs, right, the theory is, or the official
Speaker 1: explanation is the way that you just outlined it, bat
Speaker 1: and the idea is that two minutes, in fifteen seconds Ballpark,
Speaker 1: that initial blast, the submarine, the Kursk, had reached the
Speaker 1: floor of the sea, and the intensity of this initial
Speaker 1: fire eventually triggered the detonation of multiple torpedo warheads on board.
Speaker 1: It is impossible in the English language to accurately describe
Speaker 1: how terrible that is because remember earlier in the episode,
Speaker 1: just for an example, we pointed out that these warheads
Speaker 1: could weigh nine hundred and ninety pounds. This is calamitous.
Speaker 1: That second explosion was the equivalent of over two tons
Speaker 1: of T and T. But as we said, there were
Speaker 1: people who had a lot of problems with this explanation.
Speaker 3: No, no doubt, the torpedo manufacturer themselves completely contested this
Speaker 3: version of events. In addition to that, the official story
Speaker 3: seemed to contradict Russia's own claims about the hull of
Speaker 3: the craft. Seemed completely inconceivable that that double hull design,
Speaker 3: with those nine water tight compartments, which are obviously meant
Speaker 3: to fill up in the event of a breach to
Speaker 3: keep it from completely being compromised, that it would have
Speaker 3: taken just the absolute most violent explosion to pierce those
Speaker 3: very very fortified watertight compartments. So let's go into some
Speaker 3: of the possibilities. We start off with maybe the most plausible,
Speaker 3: like using kind of process of elimination and just a
Speaker 3: common sense. At the time, senior officers in the Russian
Speaker 3: Navy claimed that the Curse had collided with a British
Speaker 3: or American sub that was running spying maneuvers out in
Speaker 3: the Barns Sea.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is interesting neymar because what we see
Speaker 1: here is that both quote unquote sides of the militaries
Speaker 1: involved are accusing the other ones of spy. So our
Speaker 1: US position is the curse was said. They were doing exercises,
Speaker 1: but the real goal was, or at least one of
Speaker 1: the goals was to spy on the US right and
Speaker 1: detect our maritime presence. That makes total sense. I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that's untrue. It probably is because military exercises or
Speaker 1: war games or whatever you want to call them, are
Speaker 1: often they often have multiple ulterior motives. Right, Let's show
Speaker 1: an antagonistic force that we can like China a few
Speaker 1: years back. Let's show the US that we can also
Speaker 1: shoot satellites out of the sky. Let's call that. Let's
Speaker 1: call that a test for the environment or whatever.
Speaker 2: They said.
Speaker 1: That was hilarious. Maybe I'm being a jerk. I don't know.
Speaker 2: I don't think so. Just speaking of in part of
Speaker 2: another bit of submarine research that we were doing together,
Speaker 2: we heard, and I'm going to quote this, it's from
Speaker 2: PBS's No. They discussed how way back when, in the
Speaker 2: nineteen sixties and seventies, the United States militaries, specifically the Navy,
Speaker 2: working with several others. They miked the entire ocean, or
Speaker 2: almost the entire ocean. And this is something that we're
Speaker 2: probably gonna do an entire episode on if we haven't
Speaker 2: done it already, which maybe we have. I don't think
Speaker 2: we have. But there were microphones everywhere.
Speaker 3: As an audio nerd, the logistics of that alone is
Speaker 3: blowing my mind. I mean, micing up a drum kit
Speaker 3: is a pain in the butt, you know. Can you
Speaker 3: imagine micing the entire ocean? Any audio files or studio
Speaker 3: rats out there know what we're talking about.
Speaker 2: Well, it's I guess less sophisticated than you may imagine.
Speaker 2: It's more about visual readouts. But it just knowing that
Speaker 2: the US military was listening to everything to identify exactly
Speaker 2: where Russia was operating or at the time, the Soviet Union.
Speaker 2: It's everybody's doing it, that's all.
Speaker 1: And again no shade here at all, because we have
Speaker 1: to remember, you know, everybody is trying to do this.
Speaker 1: The US had satellites taking photographs before they could figure
Speaker 1: out a like a viable way to send those photographs
Speaker 1: back to Earth. They literally were Paul beat me here.
Speaker 1: They were literally dropping Filman from the sky. And then
Speaker 1: sending some porschemuck out to try to catch it. So like, yeah,
Speaker 1: everybody is everybody is spying on each other in some way.
Speaker 1: And the reason we're bringing up this dichotomy is because
Speaker 1: the Russian claims are not that they were spying on
Speaker 1: us or British craft. The Russian claims or that they
Speaker 1: were participating in these naval exercises and they were being
Speaker 1: shadowed by those those dastardly the ne'er do wells over
Speaker 1: at NATO. So they're saying that the West was spying
Speaker 1: on us. It seems like everybody was spying on each other,
Speaker 1: if you want to be completely fair, everybody was spying
Speaker 1: on each other because that's the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: But then if that's the case, why wasn't there a
Speaker 1: quicker response to the disaster on the curse if it
Speaker 1: were indeed an accident. Sorry, no one could see this
Speaker 1: on the zoom, but I just got so pleased with
Speaker 1: myself and like leaned back from the mic and looked
Speaker 1: at you guys.
Speaker 4: We were also all nodding pretty heavily.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I love the one upsmanship or brinksmanship.
Speaker 4: Mate. Now, we went into that one the other day.
Speaker 4: But I think this is more one upmanships like you
Speaker 4: to spy on me, bro, let me spy on you.
Speaker 4: Oh you can just spy on me. I'm gonna double
Speaker 4: hard spy on you, bro.
Speaker 2: You know that's the way we spy on the whole world.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm gonna mic the ocean.
Speaker 1: So the thing about this is that everything we just
Speaker 1: said is true. None of this is None of this
Speaker 1: is conspiracy theory.
Speaker 3: De ocean problem and a MIC's space.
Speaker 1: Sorry, no, no, what else can we mic?
Speaker 4: Yes?
Speaker 7: Oh?
Speaker 1: Then we made smartphones. Now we have mics everywhere.
Speaker 4: Right right.
Speaker 3: I always think of that thing in Batman where they
Speaker 3: turn every smartphone in the world into a listening device
Speaker 3: that is not beyond the realm of possibility.
Speaker 4: These days, it's it's pretty pretty terrifying.
Speaker 1: But total total aside. I think it's just a fun experiment,
Speaker 1: and I would love to hear you guys take on it,
Speaker 1: and I'd love to hear from our fellow conspiracy realist
Speaker 1: about this. So it's no secret, you know, like the
Speaker 1: I'm not going to put any of us on the
Speaker 1: spot specifically, but I know between the three of us
Speaker 1: we have a lot of like proxies and privacy things
Speaker 1: on our phones and on our devices. I wanted to
Speaker 1: do an experiment where I removed those you know what
Speaker 1: are ostensibly protections to see how the ad, how the
Speaker 1: ad magic algorithms work. And I've been I've been trying
Speaker 1: to build an AD profile as like a deranged billionaire.
Speaker 1: So I'll be carrying my phone around, maybe open Facebook
Speaker 1: and an OS or something, and just be like megayacht price, price,
Speaker 1: megayacht diamonds wholesale.
Speaker 3: Yes, Tyrannosaurus Rex skeleton, yes, whole You know.
Speaker 1: So, if anybody wants to do an experiment with that
Speaker 1: and join us, we'd love to hear your results. So far,
Speaker 1: I have not been getting targeted ads for a megayacht,
Speaker 1: So maybe I'm just not doing it right. Maybe you
Speaker 1: know what, the system probably already knows that I can't
Speaker 1: actually buy it.
Speaker 3: I think megayachts are the kind of things that don't
Speaker 3: really need to be advertised for. They just kind of
Speaker 3: make them to order.
Speaker 1: You know that is true? There's not there's there's probably
Speaker 1: not some uh, some guide a department in Ikea going,
Speaker 1: how am I going to move all these meggie yachts?
Speaker 1: People just keep wasting money on couches. But anyway, yes,
Speaker 1: the spying stuff is real null. To your point, this
Speaker 1: does seem like a plausible explanation, does it not. For
Speaker 1: someone to say, for members of the Russian Navy to
Speaker 1: say the Curse cats collided with someone that was spying
Speaker 1: on them. It has a propagandistic effect too, because the
Speaker 1: implication here is that the other side is somehow incompetent or.
Speaker 3: Culpa bule, you know what I mean. Like it's like, look,
Speaker 3: it was their fault. They shouldn't have been there in
Speaker 3: the first place, and they killed all our beloved comrades.
Speaker 3: It's a good way to spin it to maybe redirect
Speaker 3: some of that anger we're talking about about whom you know,
Speaker 3: wives who'd lost their husbands, et cetera. You know, mothers
Speaker 3: who'd lost their sons. Let's let's point this, you know,
Speaker 3: shotgun blast of grief and anxiety toward the enemy or
Speaker 3: at least an other.
Speaker 2: And secrecy is well, actually it's it's all kind of secrecy.
Speaker 2: From this point on, there are a lot of even
Speaker 2: more conspiratorial thoughts going into what actually occurred here to
Speaker 2: the curse and we're going to talk about those after
Speaker 2: a quick word from our sponsor, anybody down to talk
Speaker 2: secret torpedoes always.
Speaker 1: That's one of my main things, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's like number one on my LinkedIn is talk to
Speaker 1: me about secret torpedoes. I'm kidding. I haven't been on
Speaker 1: LinkedIn forever. I don't know what it says. It's true, though,
Speaker 1: there are secrets so more conspiratorial ideas. One of the
Speaker 1: one of the ones you will see frequently is that
Speaker 1: the Russian government was being very secretive about the wreckage
Speaker 1: of the Curse because they were carrying, like we had
Speaker 1: kind of speculation earlier, they were carrying top secret technology,
Speaker 1: specifically a classified ultra high speed torpedo known as the
Speaker 1: Squall or in Russian shkval. NATO at the time was
Speaker 1: very concerned about this, and so for some time you
Speaker 1: would see speculation that maybe they were taking this off
Speaker 1: the drawing board and into action too soon, and something
Speaker 1: had gone wrong with this new technology. I mean, you
Speaker 1: know what kind of logically makes sense, right, new technology
Speaker 1: is super treacherous. How many people died in a space program, right?
Speaker 1: How many people have died in experiments with new munitions,
Speaker 1: with new aircraft? You know what I mean. It's it's unfortunately,
Speaker 1: it's a cost of doing the business that is war.
Speaker 4: But here's the problem.
Speaker 3: There's a lot of speculation by you know, military experts
Speaker 3: and historians that these this technology never really existed.
Speaker 4: So that puts a little bit of a wrench into
Speaker 4: this theory.
Speaker 2: But but how would they know it's hyper classified.
Speaker 3: This hyper classified mega torpedoes. It's true, I don't know,
Speaker 3: that's a I know, I know you're joking their Matt,
Speaker 3: But it's a good point you make. I mean, there
Speaker 3: really is no way of knowing if that level of
Speaker 3: secrecy that we know the Russians are capable.
Speaker 4: Of was was was a thing.
Speaker 3: Uh So let's talk let's let'slet's pivot away a little
Speaker 3: bit to the American side of things. You'll see some
Speaker 3: of these claims that the US submarine uh, the well,
Speaker 3: a pair of submarines, actually the USS Memphis and the
Speaker 3: Toledo uh sank the Cursk with their torpedoes or you
Speaker 3: know what's the official line of the Russian government is
Speaker 3: that they collided with them while they were out on
Speaker 3: those spying expeditions or whatever you call it kind of exercises.
Speaker 3: And this theory goes like this, the Toledo accidentally collided
Speaker 3: with the Cursk, and so the Memphis then open fire
Speaker 3: when fearing retaliation, and the resulting fire ignited the torpedoes.
Speaker 1: So kind of like at a party somewhere where things
Speaker 1: get out of hand, somebody bumps into someone and someone's like, hey,
Speaker 1: why'd you bump into me? And then someone else preemptively
Speaker 1: tries to end a fight by starting one. It sounds strange,
Speaker 1: but it also I don't know about you all, but
Speaker 1: it feels like it has the ring of plausibility to me,
Speaker 1: because accidents do happen and people are already at such
Speaker 1: an enormously tense point here.
Speaker 3: Isn't that a weird escalation? Though, Ben, I guess that's
Speaker 3: to your point. The tension is a big part of
Speaker 3: it because they shouldn't have been there in the first place, right,
Speaker 3: So it was almost like they were discovered and then
Speaker 3: it's right, or these are these international waters? No, right,
Speaker 3: this is definitely they're They're not supposed to be there.
Speaker 3: So if the curse discovers this American spy craft, it
Speaker 3: would be it would be on the table for them
Speaker 3: to open fire.
Speaker 4: Anyway. I'm just want to make sure I'm understanding.
Speaker 1: You know, that's a really good question. From the way
Speaker 1: the uh, from the way the situation is occurring. I imagine,
Speaker 1: and listeners please correct us here, but I imagine this
Speaker 1: is either an international lane of traffic or or an
Speaker 1: international waters area, or maybe there are conflicting claims about
Speaker 1: the sovereignty over the sea here. Because you know, as
Speaker 1: we know, you think land borders are messy, ocean borders
Speaker 1: are hilarious. They're they're a pile of dangerous spaghetti that
Speaker 1: people get killed over.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Man, you can't build an ocean wall, right, I mean
Speaker 3: not yet. I guess you could maybe, but it'd be
Speaker 3: pretty expensive and pretty messy.
Speaker 1: We you know, we were really focused on the microphones
Speaker 1: for a while. We haven't upgraded to the wall yet,
Speaker 1: but we'll get there. So it feels realistic, but it
Speaker 1: also feels maybe a little bit too convenient. The problem
Speaker 1: is that, of course, these lines of speculation thrive because
Speaker 1: of the secrecy immediately following the disaster and the years
Speaker 1: following that. But let's get really conspiratorial here. We can
Speaker 1: start connecting odd dots. According to the stories, one of
Speaker 1: the US submarines in the area had its emergency booy deployed.
Speaker 1: Like we said earlier, an emergency buoy is an automatic
Speaker 1: thing that happens as a means of assisting search and
Speaker 1: rescue efforts. It only deploys generally in an emergency. The
Speaker 1: Russian Kurse buoy, as I think you had said earlier,
Speaker 1: Matt was disabled, and the US buoy that Lloyd was
Speaker 1: apparently recovered by Russian forces. One of the subs, the Memphis,
Speaker 1: went to port to get repairs in Norway, so there
Speaker 1: was some kind of damage to it. The implication is,
Speaker 1: and you'll see people claiming that there is photographic evidence
Speaker 1: of the USS Memphis and that these photos show the
Speaker 1: hatch covering this emergency buoy is missing. So you start
Speaker 1: to see kind of the threads connecting here. But that's
Speaker 1: only part of the story. There's other speculation about the
Speaker 1: USS Toledo.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so supposedly after this event went down, the Toledo
Speaker 2: itself needs to get some repairs, so it heads on
Speaker 2: over to a facility within the US and once it
Speaker 2: gets in there, absolutely no one is allowed to see it.
Speaker 2: The personnel that generally would be doing those repairs and
Speaker 2: inspecting and making sure everything's okay, taking reports on that
Speaker 2: they just don't get to look at it and then
Speaker 2: check this out. There's supposedly video evidence from the Curse
Speaker 2: that shows several large gashes on the hole or you know,
Speaker 2: a lot of damage on the hole that's fairly long,
Speaker 2: and it seems to show that the metal is bent
Speaker 2: inward as though there was an explosive force on the
Speaker 2: outside pushing that metal in. Now, what we do need
Speaker 2: to take into account here is the concept of implosion.
Speaker 2: When you've got a pressurized container, right that then when
Speaker 2: there's a ton of in this case ocean water pressure
Speaker 2: on the outside and exterior of that, let's say just
Speaker 2: a can, a big aluminum can, if there's an if
Speaker 2: there's sufficient pressure on the outside, then an implosion can
Speaker 2: occur where there would be essentially a crushing of that
Speaker 2: container and the explosion and would cause it to look
Speaker 2: a very certain way. In a lot of times, if
Speaker 2: that pressure is large enough, you would just see fragments
Speaker 2: of metal as like that's what is left over. That
Speaker 2: is not what happened with the Curs for sure, at
Speaker 2: least a full implosion, because it wasn't at full depth
Speaker 2: there when it occurred where or you know, fifteen thousand
Speaker 2: I think feet would be around the time when you
Speaker 2: get like full crushing.
Speaker 1: Depth, right, And the curse was at three hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty four feet under the surface or one hundred and
Speaker 1: eight meters.
Speaker 2: Right, which is nothing compared to you know, crushing death
Speaker 2: or deeper depths, so, you know, implosion. I don't know.
Speaker 2: All I'm saying is it just still feels a little fishy,
Speaker 2: but it doesn't necessarily prove anything.
Speaker 1: Oh fishy, yes, yeah, yeah, I mean it's true. But
Speaker 1: there's there's another there's an even weirder series of rumors
Speaker 1: about stuff that happened on land after this, right.
Speaker 4: Yes, and this is even fishier almost to me. It's this.
Speaker 4: The story goes that.
Speaker 3: Almost immediately after this incident, a quite sizable loan or
Speaker 3: debt to the United States on Russia's behalf was forgiven
Speaker 3: and Russia was allowed to take out an additional loan.
Speaker 3: That doesn't happen. You know, we don't to what end,
Speaker 3: what's the reasoning there? Very unusual. Also, in the days
Speaker 3: after the incident, it turns out that George Tenant went
Speaker 3: to Moscow.
Speaker 4: If you know that name doesn't ring a bell.
Speaker 3: He was the first acting CIA director in history to
Speaker 3: go to the Russian capitol, which is a big deal.
Speaker 3: And that last part is definitely true, but it's also
Speaker 3: important to this there's no causation here. These events are
Speaker 3: not necessarily connect did but it sure does make you think,
Speaker 3: doesn't it Fellas Yeah, this.
Speaker 1: Is kind of the juicy stuff, right, because George Tenant
Speaker 1: did travel to Moscow just eight days later on August eighteenth.
Speaker 1: It was officially an invitation from Russian officials to discuss
Speaker 1: ways to counter international terrorism, but the Nbass refused to
Speaker 1: give any further details about this, and Uncle Sam stonewall
Speaker 1: at the media pretty hard core. So now we as
Speaker 1: we said this happened almost twenty years ago to the day,
Speaker 1: we have the benefit of retrospect, We have a lot
Speaker 1: of other intervening research, and some of this later research
Speaker 1: has has has drawn conclusions or gathered evidence that's just
Speaker 1: disappointing enough to maybe sound like the truth. So what
Speaker 1: if the Cursk wasn't using these secret high tech what
Speaker 1: do you call it, Matt, hyper classified? It's been in
Speaker 1: your favorite phrase, Yeah, these hyper classified squall torpedoes. But
Speaker 1: what if instead, as a very cash strapped navy, they
Speaker 1: were relying on cheap, old fashioned technology, because you know,
Speaker 1: that's another line item that you don't have to add
Speaker 1: to the budget. There's a former Royal Naval Engineering College
Speaker 1: lecturer named Maurice Stradling, and he's also a torpedo designer,
Speaker 1: which sounds like a really interesting hobby. It's probably a job,
Speaker 1: but it's a cool idea as a hobby. So he
Speaker 1: started comparing and contrasting stuff. He looked at the data
Speaker 1: from the Kursk disaster and it reminded him of this
Speaker 1: pretty obscure story about a similar explosion aboard a British
Speaker 1: sub in nineteen fifty five. I had never heard of this.
Speaker 1: I think most people in the US, aside from professional
Speaker 1: explosion investigators like Rachel Lance, have probably not heard of this.
Speaker 3: That's so amazing that you mentioned that, Ben, That's what
Speaker 3: I was scratching my I had a thought and then
Speaker 3: it went away, and it was Rachel Lance man for
Speaker 3: people that maybe don't listen to the other show that
Speaker 3: Ben and I do, ridiculous history. We interviewed Rachel Lance
Speaker 3: about the sinking of the SS of the Hunley. Excuse me,
Speaker 3: it's not the SS, which was like a World War
Speaker 3: One no I'm sorry. A Civil war submarine that was
Speaker 3: made out of like it's like a flintstone sub where
Speaker 3: you have to crank it with your feet.
Speaker 4: And she is the.
Speaker 3: Foremost expert on underwater explosions, which we joked was a
Speaker 3: very very specific the specialization, and she agreed, but yeah,
Speaker 3: I would love to hear her take on this.
Speaker 2: Well, just to jump back to that, Yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry that I missed that, guys.
Speaker 4: But the.
Speaker 2: Other disaster that we're talking about here where there was
Speaker 2: an explosion due to some kind of malfunctioning torpedo. Let's
Speaker 2: jump to a boat called the Sight on the SIDN.
Speaker 2: There was some kind of experimental torpedo on board and
Speaker 2: there was an explosion. Here's the deal, though, this torpedo
Speaker 2: contained the substance that's thought to have been within the curse,
Speaker 2: that HTP or high test peroxide, and the thought was
Speaker 2: the crew of the Sight On we're loading this torpedo
Speaker 2: and that's when the explosion occurred. When this blast happened,
Speaker 2: thirteen men died.
Speaker 1: So this is fascinating and this is something we know
Speaker 1: again in retrospect, some of the official findings of this
Speaker 1: tragedy with the British sub didn't match the actual findings
Speaker 1: carried out by that secret Board of Inquiry into the
Speaker 1: disaster once this report was late later became public, the
Speaker 1: found that a stainless steel pipe carrying this high test
Speaker 1: peroxide to the engine of the sub had burst, and
Speaker 1: something the public didn't know at the time. The original
Speaker 1: investigation found incompetence on the part of the submarine crew
Speaker 1: again of this UK boat, this Sidon. They found that
Speaker 1: the torpedo had accidentally been started or ignited, you know,
Speaker 1: before it was fired out of the sub, which is
Speaker 1: kind of like a really really terrible comparison. Imagine torpedoes
Speaker 1: at this time in the fifties a little bit similar
Speaker 1: to firecrackers, like you gotta get ignite them and shoot them.
Speaker 1: But you're in a sub remember, you can't run away,
Speaker 1: so the timing is very, very important. So the idea
Speaker 1: here is that there had been maybe a little bit
Speaker 1: of a cover up or at the least public you know,
Speaker 1: public reputation management on the part of the UK government.
Speaker 1: And importantly, to Stradling's point, the torpedoes on the Cursk
Speaker 1: also had HTP, leading Stradling to believe that this proves
Speaker 1: a similar disaster led to the destruction of this Russian submarine.
Speaker 1: So he is finding in favor of an accident, you know,
Speaker 1: not a planned act of belligerence, and the explosion of
Speaker 1: this practice torpedo in the Curse, he says, set off
Speaker 1: this chain reaction with the live warheads, and this caused
Speaker 1: the explosion that later sent the Curse to its watery grave.
Speaker 2: And this is the exact story that if you go
Speaker 2: to the Moscow Time Times, the Independent News out of Russia,
Speaker 2: this is the exact story that they have that was
Speaker 2: published in August of twenty nineteen of what the true
Speaker 2: fate of the Curse was.
Speaker 9: Independent Come on, maybe it is okay, Well, what do
Speaker 9: you think happened to the Curse?
Speaker 3: Maybe a freak chemical accident, this enemy forces attack scenario.
Speaker 4: I don't know, what do you guys think.
Speaker 3: I do think the plausible thing is perhaps that oops
Speaker 3: followed by boom boom.
Speaker 4: That's me, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: Well, there's a great point brought up by some former
Speaker 1: CIA analysts and people familiar with the intelligence community. One
Speaker 1: guy in particular stood out to me, a guy named
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Edmonds, and he says, you know, something's kind of tragic.
Speaker 1: He says, there's simply a tendency for acts evidence to
Speaker 1: happen in Russia. And again we're not being anti Russian here,
Speaker 1: this is what this guy say. He's saying that Russia
Speaker 1: appears to have this process whereby they often combine a
Speaker 1: willingness to take risk with outdated infrastructure that just can't
Speaker 1: support that risk taking culture, and that this creates an
Speaker 1: environment where accidents are more likely. This is a longstanding
Speaker 1: observation slash accusation of the Russian military, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: to put a fine point on it, and to be
Speaker 1: brutally descriptive, the military of Russia has been repeatedly accused
Speaker 1: of throwing bodies at a problem until they consider that
Speaker 1: problem solved, you know what I mean. That's why one
Speaker 1: of the most popular and even plausible theory conspiracy theories
Speaker 1: in the world of space exploration isn't whether people went
Speaker 1: to the Moon, it's how many cosmonauts might have died
Speaker 1: before Jurigergarren got into space and came back.
Speaker 4: Not to mention how many dogs died.
Speaker 6: And.
Speaker 2: How guilty is any other country and including and especially
Speaker 2: the United States. Of course, even with the inflated budgets,
Speaker 2: and you know the amount of importance that's placed on
Speaker 2: it culturally and publicly.
Speaker 4: No, no question about it.
Speaker 1: So let us know what you think happened there on
Speaker 1: August tenth, two thousand, which it's crazy to realize that
Speaker 1: it's almost two decades gone now, but we want to
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Speaker 2: to do that and you want to do more, you
Speaker 2: can give us a call. Our number is one eight
Speaker 2: three three S T T.
Speaker 1: Living towards the finish line. But I think it helped
Speaker 1: when you moved your hand again.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're the conductor, Matt, you are the conductor.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Give us a call, leave us a message. We
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