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Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist. It is the end of the calendar

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Speaker 1: year and we're we're going to take a break to

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Speaker 1: get with our families, our loved entities. And while we're

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Speaker 1: doing that, we wanted to share some of our favorite

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Speaker 1: classic episodes. This one is another episode about the high seas.

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Speaker 1: You guys, the Curse submarine.

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Speaker 2: All the mighty Curse and how it fell.

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Speaker 3: Yes, more than five hundred feet long, carrying missiles the

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Speaker 3: size of small aeroplanes.

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Speaker 4: It's a big boy.

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Speaker 1: And here's the thing, even if you're a big boy

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Speaker 1: nuclear sub you're still very small in comparison to the

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Speaker 1: system that we call the ocean.

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Speaker 4: So it was destroyed in.

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Speaker 1: One of the most catastrophic submarine disasters in history. The

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Speaker 1: entire crew was lost, and even now, decades later, as

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Speaker 1: we learned back in twenty twenty, you'll find plenty of

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Speaker 1: people who believe this accident was not an accident after all.

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Speaker 1: One quick note before we dive in today, we had

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Speaker 1: a few grimlins in the proverbial machine during this recording.

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Speaker 1: As a result, you may notice a little bit of

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Speaker 1: strangeness with the microphones in this episode, especially my own. However,

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Speaker 1: we managed to keep those audio shenanigans to a minimum.

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Speaker 1: We hope you enjoy the show.

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Speaker 5: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is

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Speaker 5: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 5: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 5: production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show.

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Speaker 4: My name is Matt, my name is Nola.

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with

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Speaker 1: our super producer Paul Mission Control decades. Most importantly, you

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Speaker 1: are you. You are here, and that makes this stuff

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Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. We're diving deep today

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Speaker 1: in what will come to be the first terrible pun

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Speaker 1: of this episode, into a story that some people may

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Speaker 1: remember right as one of those many ephemeral headlines that

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Speaker 1: circulated in two thousand. In two thousand and one, but

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Speaker 1: this was brought to our attention by one of our

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Speaker 1: fellow listeners, a fellow conspiracy realists, who, for the sake

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Speaker 1: of comic book Nerdery, we will refer.

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Speaker 6: To as naymar Hey, guys, So, I just got out

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Speaker 6: of the Navy working on submarines, and as such, I've

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Speaker 6: got a couple submarine conspiracies that you may or may

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Speaker 6: not know about.

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Speaker 7: So the first one is the Curse, which that made

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Speaker 7: it international news. And two thousand, I think it was

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Speaker 7: two thousand, the Russian submarine that was spying on United

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Speaker 7: States and and and NATO submarines and warships doing doing

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Speaker 7: a bunch of a bunch of exercises and it blew up.

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Speaker 7: So the official story is that a torpedo blew up.

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Speaker 7: But I know people who have been who are on

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Speaker 7: the boat one of the submarines, and they were listening

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Speaker 7: to the Curse, and I know one of them has

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Speaker 7: told me it definitely got shot by another boat. One

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Speaker 7: said it definitely did not, and and some of the

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Speaker 7: others have have refused to talk about it. So who

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Speaker 7: knows what's going on there? That one's definitely worth looking into.

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Speaker 1: Nay more, this is a fantastic question, and you've actually

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Speaker 1: you've given us a lot to chew on here such

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Speaker 1: that we talked off air, and this may be the

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Speaker 1: first of multiple submarine related conspiracies, because let's talk about submarines.

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Speaker 1: The weirdest thing about a submarine is that they are

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Speaker 1: inherently conspiratorial. They are these mysterious, at times nuclear powered

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Speaker 1: craft that are as we record sneaking through the ocean

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Speaker 1: depths across the planet. You know, a submarine is explicitly

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Speaker 1: designed to deceive, to occlude its presence. The location and

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Speaker 1: the capabilities of a submarine are often the stuff its

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Speaker 1: owners don't want you to know, and so it's no

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Speaker 1: surprise that submarines are themselves the subject of numerous conspiracies.

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Speaker 1: So today we're diving into the mystery of one submarine

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Speaker 1: in particular, as you requested, Naymor, what happened to the curse?

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Speaker 1: Here are the facts.

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Speaker 3: So work on the kur Gan in nineteen ninety and

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Speaker 3: the sub officially launched in nineteen eighty four, and it

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Speaker 3: was massive.

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Speaker 4: It was a massive deal.

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Speaker 3: But it was also physically massive, at five hundred and

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Speaker 3: eight feet nineteen thousand, four hundred tons. It was capable

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Speaker 3: of launching missiles the size of a small aircraft that

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Speaker 3: would absolutely decimate any targets that were unfortunate enough to

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Speaker 3: be in its path, and that.

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Speaker 4: Could be up to four hundred miles away.

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Speaker 3: NATO actually called it an Oscar two class, which is

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Speaker 3: a nuclear powered cruise missile submarine owned and operated by

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Speaker 3: the Russian Navy and until two thousand and seven, conversion

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Speaker 3: of the US Navy's Ohio class subs from ballistic missiles

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Speaker 3: to these types of more long range cruise missiles. The

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Speaker 3: Oscar two class submarines were the largest of their type

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Speaker 3: in the world.

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Speaker 2: In this particular Oscar two class submarine, the Cursk was

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Speaker 2: a big deal, and others in this class were explicitly

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Speaker 2: designed to defeat the biggest threats that were seeing in

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Speaker 2: the US Navy's command, the US Aircraft Carrier Group, So

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Speaker 2: the machines that are out there floating that function as

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Speaker 2: a full military command base and airport.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's important to remember that until about two thousand

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Speaker 1: and seven, the Oscar two class was the largest type

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Speaker 1: a submarine of its type in the entire world. The

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Speaker 1: only reason that changed is because some Ohio class subs

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Speaker 1: that originally launched ballistic missiles were converted to also launch

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Speaker 1: cruise missiles. The Kursk had the power in theory to

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Speaker 1: sink an aircraft carrier with a single torpedo that was

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Speaker 1: specifically something called a Type sixty five. These torpedoes carried

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Speaker 1: a nine hundred and ninety pound warhead. This is serious stuff,

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Speaker 1: and you know, to be very clear when we say

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Speaker 1: aircraft carrier in this sense. We mean exactly what Matt

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Speaker 1: is talking about here, the the ship that is the

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Speaker 1: the carrier where you see the jets launching and stuff.

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Speaker 1: Aircraft carriers don't ride solo. They roll deep that you'll

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Speaker 1: we have to remember that an aircraft carrier is one

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Speaker 1: part of what is it called an aircraft carrier battle group,

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Speaker 1: and that includes other ships. It changes depending on the mission,

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Speaker 1: but you know, it includes things like guided missile cruisers, destroyers,

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Speaker 1: frigates like this. This is not the only thing on

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Speaker 1: the album. An aircraft carrier battle group is kind of

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Speaker 1: like a Posse track, But the aircraft carrier is the

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Speaker 1: you know, is the tupac?

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Speaker 8: Uh?

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Speaker 4: Really quickly, what is a frigate?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, frigate is is an old term. I love

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Speaker 1: so many maritime terms. There's also like brigotine. A frigate

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Speaker 1: is meant to protect other warships and some and I

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Speaker 1: think they specialized. Again, I'm not a member of the Navy,

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Speaker 1: but I think they specialized in anti submarine warfare.

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Speaker 3: Pretty often every time I hear I just want to say,

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Speaker 3: frigin frigate. You know, it's just it's got the ring

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Speaker 3: to it. But please let us right the ship and

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Speaker 3: move forward in the episode there we.

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Speaker 1: Go, There we Go. So, aside from being powerful in

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Speaker 1: offensive terms, the Curse was also very It was a

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Speaker 1: source of pride for the Russian military because its structure

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Speaker 1: was purportedly incredibly robust and sturdy in a way that

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Speaker 1: would worry the members of NATO.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the whole design of this craft made it very, very,

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Speaker 2: at least on paper, difficult to sink, to breach the hull,

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Speaker 2: to cause major damage to this thing. It had a

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Speaker 2: double hole design, So just think about this way on

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Speaker 2: the outer the exoskeleon. Essentially the outer hole was stainless steel.

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Speaker 2: It had all kinds of different metals in their nickel, chromium,

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Speaker 2: and it had extremely good resistance to things like corrosion

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Speaker 2: and natural processes that would weaken the whole system. And

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Speaker 2: something's really interesting. These metals actually have a bit of

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Speaker 2: a weak magneticism to them. And something really interesting about

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Speaker 2: these metals nickel and chromium, you know, combined there with steel,

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Speaker 2: Both of these metals were very difficult to detect with

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Speaker 2: this thing that the United States military was using a

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Speaker 2: magnetic anominally detector. And because those metals have those weak

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Speaker 2: signals as it's traveling through the sea, through the ocean,

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Speaker 2: it's not as easily detected because of that weak signature

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Speaker 2: of those metals contain you know. Then you get into

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Speaker 2: the inner hole and you're looking at two inch thick

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Speaker 2: steel's It's really cool because the structure of that outer

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Speaker 2: and inner hole essentially made this thing so strong that

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Speaker 2: you could just plow through ice out in the Arctic

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Speaker 2: somewhere if you needed to, just to break through. And

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Speaker 2: the way this structure I mean already we're kind of

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Speaker 2: describing here is just how strong this thing is.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 2: It was compared a lot to the Titanic, at least

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Speaker 2: in some of the writing that I saw about the

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Speaker 2: ship or the boat, excuse me, the submarine, because it

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Speaker 2: was built with these compartments, separate separated compartments that if

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Speaker 2: one were to be breached and a flood was to

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Speaker 2: occur in one of those, you could turn, you could

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Speaker 2: shut that thing down, lock it off, and then be

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Speaker 2: safe in another compartment. Even if the submarine were to

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Speaker 2: sink all the way down to the ocean floor, the

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Speaker 2: crew would theoretically be able to survive in one of

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Speaker 2: the other compartments if they did. You know, seal themselves

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Speaker 2: in essentially and had enough oxygen. But that comparison to

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Speaker 2: the Titanic about being unsinkable and that structure is very interesting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know if it's our own kind of

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Speaker 1: personal selection bias or something, but it seems like historically,

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Speaker 1: whenever we run into these so called indestructible or impregnable structures,

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Speaker 1: something goes terribly awry. It's like putting a target on

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Speaker 1: your invention's back. This boat was able to do something

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Speaker 1: amazing and possibly something that would terrify some of our

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Speaker 1: land lubbers in the audience. The Cursk was able to

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Speaker 1: remain submerge for up to one hundred and twenty days.

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Speaker 1: That means if you were on the crew of the Curse,

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Speaker 1: it was theoretically possible that you would sink under the

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Speaker 1: surface of the briny blue and you would not see

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Speaker 1: the sun or see the sky until almost half a

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Speaker 1: year had passed.

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Speaker 2: I just have to say I have no military experience,

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Speaker 2: but the concept of doing that for one hundred and

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Speaker 2: twenty days straight, psychologically, I would not want to be

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Speaker 2: in there, trapped with what one hundred maybe one hundred

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Speaker 2: plus human beings inside that thing. No thank you.

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Speaker 3: I can't even imagine just the logistics of that. And

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Speaker 3: just like the sanitary conditions, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you know there's there's things to help keep

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Speaker 3: things from becoming from deteriorating into a state of you know, disgustingness,

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Speaker 3: I guess for lack of a better word, but it

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Speaker 3: seems like it'd be pretty stinky down there with all

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Speaker 3: those men's you know, bodies.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what's That's one of the first things I

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Speaker 1: thought of too, Because we have we have amazing technology

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Speaker 1: for you know, recycling air, we have an amazing water

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Speaker 1: reclamation technology as a species, but for some reason, our

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Speaker 1: entire speed just hasn't figured out a way to get

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Speaker 1: around the funk, you know, just that locker room stank

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Speaker 1: with an a that occurs whenever you have a bunch

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Speaker 1: of a bunch of people in a small claustrophobic situation.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we're not we want to be completely fair,

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Speaker 1: Like the curse was large enough and to a degree

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Speaker 1: opulent enough that senior officers did have their own staterooms.

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Speaker 1: It's not like everybody was three people to a bunk

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Speaker 1: or something. But still, life on a submarine is very,

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Speaker 1: very challenging, and the Curse itself actually only completed a

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Speaker 1: single mission during its time, which sounds unusual for such

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Speaker 1: a juggernaut of the waves. During five years of service,

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Speaker 1: it completed one six month deployment to the Mediterranean Sea.

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Speaker 1: This was in nineteen ninety nine, and they were going

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Speaker 1: to monitor US naval response to the Kosovo crisis that

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Speaker 1: was occurring. Now you might ask yourself, why spend so

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Speaker 1: much time, blood and treasure on the creation of a

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Speaker 1: craft like this and not really take it out, you know,

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Speaker 1: not really give it a spin around the global block

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Speaker 1: It turns out there were I don't know if it's

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Speaker 1: fair to say Russia was broke, but they had some

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Speaker 1: serious money issues going on, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's crazy.

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Speaker 3: So they spent all this money, you know, top dollar

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Speaker 3: to make this impregnable, you know, b myth of a

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Speaker 3: seafaring war machine, and they didn't factor in a little detail,

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Speaker 3: you know, the the go go juice, the stuff that

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Speaker 3: makes it go, literally, the fuel. They didn't have it

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Speaker 3: had built it into the budget. There was an absolute

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Speaker 3: funding crisis that was so serious that many members of

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Speaker 3: the Northern Fleet.

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Speaker 4: Had gone unpaid for quite a while. In the mid nineties.

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Speaker 1: Imagine that. Okay, so now let's paint the situation with

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a sharper brush to your point, Noel,

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Speaker 1: You're trapped on a submarine. You might be underwater for

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Speaker 1: four months. Everything stinks of funk and sweat. And the

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Speaker 1: other one hundred something people with you are non consensual volunteers, right.

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Speaker 1: They signed up for the Navy with the expectation that

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Speaker 1: they would be paid for it, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: you're not getting the checks. And that doesn't mean you

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Speaker 1: can get off the boat. You're still stuck. It's terrible,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I don't want to be glib about it,

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Speaker 1: because the story of the curse takes a very violent

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Speaker 1: turn almost twenty years ago today.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so on August tenth, in the year two thousand, well,

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Speaker 2: something strange happened. There was an unexpected disaster, at least

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Speaker 2: according to the official story. Right, there's an unofficial disaster

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Speaker 2: that occurs during an exercise out at sea. It was

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Speaker 2: called Summer X, And the way the story goes, there

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Speaker 2: was a tremendous explosion inside of the submarine itself that

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Speaker 2: ended up just tearing the thing into several pieces. Specifically

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Speaker 2: the front end, the nose of it was completely ripped

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Speaker 2: off of the submarine itself, and there were other pretty

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Speaker 2: large parts of this submarine that were completely separated and

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Speaker 2: blown apart and shoved into one another. And again, this

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Speaker 2: is a submarine. You have to remember, it is operating

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Speaker 2: underneath the surface of the water. So unless you are

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Speaker 2: specifically tracking this thing with some kind of sophisticated, high

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Speaker 2: powered or some other technology, you don't know where it is.

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Speaker 2: If you're on the surface, let's say, even if you're

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Speaker 2: in a frigate or another ship or something that's monitoring

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Speaker 2: the situation, you don't know exactly where they are. But

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Speaker 2: there were crews on surrounding ships or nearby ships, and

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Speaker 2: the only way that they knew something had gone wrong

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Speaker 2: was that they felt the impact or essentially the boom

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Speaker 2: the implosion that occurred below, and you could feel it

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Speaker 2: essentially being on another craft.

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Speaker 1: This disaster occurred in an area known as the Barrence Scene.

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Speaker 1: The Barren See is a part of the Arctic Ocean.

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Speaker 1: It's off the northern coast of Norway and Russia, and

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Speaker 1: this geography is important because that second, much larger explosion

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Speaker 1: created an impact that could be felt as far away

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Speaker 1: as Alaska. Later research by seismologists would conclude that this

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Speaker 1: was the force was equivalent to that of an earthquake,

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Speaker 1: measuring four point two on the Richter scale, which means

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Speaker 1: that which of course would lead you to rightly assume

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Speaker 1: that munitions were part of the explosion, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, not just a fire or something.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and it follows that there were no survivors. All

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Speaker 3: one hundred and eighteen members of the crew of the

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Speaker 3: Kursk perished in the disaster. And you know, this was

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Speaker 3: something that Vladimir Putin, who was recently elected at the time.

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Speaker 3: It's hard to imagine a time when Vladimir Putin wasn't

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Speaker 3: the head of this part of the world, but there

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Speaker 3: certainly was, and he had recently been elected and staked

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Speaker 3: a lot of his reputation on pushing for this project.

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Speaker 3: So this was a big blow to him personally. And

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Speaker 3: it wasn't a good look either that he happened to

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Speaker 3: be on vacation at the time, and this did not

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Speaker 3: play well with relatives of the crew members. I watched

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Speaker 3: a documentary about this, and there there were a lot

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Speaker 3: of I guess hearings where relatives of the crew members

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Speaker 3: were just shrieking in Russian and just at the top

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Speaker 3: of their lungs, cursing Putin and this regime and saying,

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Speaker 3: how could you let these men live in a tiny

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Speaker 3: box for you know, however long we know it was.

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Speaker 4: It was quite a long time with no pay.

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Speaker 3: We know that happened too, and then just you know,

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Speaker 3: let them die like dogs, basically, you know, so a

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Speaker 3: lot of emotion. They were absolutely aghast and enraged at

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Speaker 3: the way this disaster was handled. They argued that the

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Speaker 3: official statements were absolute disinformation, absolute bs. Was there a

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Speaker 3: cover up? We'll talk about that after a quick word

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Speaker 3: from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: Let's walk through the immediate after math of this disaster.

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's tempting to say that, of course,

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Speaker 1: anyone will react with intense grief and emotion when they

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Speaker 1: lose a loved one, but it's crucial for us to

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Speaker 1: emphasize that the claims of the relatives of these crew

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Speaker 1: members were not just made up out of whole cloth.

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Speaker 1: They didn't just wake up for no reason and decide

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Speaker 1: to accuse the government of deceiving them. Later research found

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Speaker 1: that there were intense problems with the investigation the Russian Navy,

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Speaker 1: according to official sources, initially did not realize an accident

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Speaker 1: had occurred. More than six hours passed before an initial

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Speaker 1: search even began. And to your point about those compartments, Matt,

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Speaker 1: does that mean, like you can look out layouts of

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Speaker 1: these nine compartments in the curse. Does that mean that

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Speaker 1: some of the one hundred and eighteen people aboard were

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Speaker 1: able to escape whatever that initial blast was and move

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Speaker 1: to a safer compartment. Would six hours have saved them?

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Speaker 4: You know?

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Speaker 3: Eleven hours later the Navy declared an emergency. Finally, later

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Speaker 3: research showed that all crew members had died by that point. Normally,

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Speaker 3: there's a you know, cash of safety gear on these

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Speaker 3: types of subs rescue buoys which automatically deploy like an

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Speaker 3: escape pod in a spaceship or something, but that did

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Speaker 3: not occur. The booy of the Curse had been disabled.

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Speaker 3: It took the Navy sixteen hours to find the wreckage

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Speaker 3: and to start to kind of like figure out what

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Speaker 3: had happened. Rumors were circulating the sub may have collided

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Speaker 3: with a mine, which we know exists. We know there's like,

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Speaker 3: you know, still potentially isn't there one in Savannah Bend,

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Speaker 3: and we talk about that in Savannah, Georgia.

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Speaker 4: There's a mine somewhere out there in the harbor.

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Speaker 1: It's a nuclear nuclear way.

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Speaker 3: Oh even worse. But still we have heard tell of

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Speaker 3: still active minds out there, you know, from war and

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Speaker 3: this was a again a rumor, but that it had

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Speaker 3: been an undeployed mine that it collided with inadvertently.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, from way back in World War Two. There are

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Speaker 2: you know, there are all kinds of rumors that were

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Speaker 2: circulating around at the time. It is it makes total sense, right,

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Speaker 2: how on earth could this have happened? We were doing

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Speaker 2: some kind of official exercise. Nothing could have should have

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Speaker 2: gone wrong. Maybe there was a friendly fire situation, an

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Speaker 2: accidental you know, deployment of a torpedo that ended up

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Speaker 2: hitting a friendly target in this way, right if you're

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Speaker 2: if you're imagining yourself as as the Russian military or

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Speaker 2: some of the the commanders there. And the thing is,

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Speaker 2: there's all kinds of other stuff that people have said

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Speaker 2: over the years about what may have happened. But now

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Speaker 2: almost twenty years, almost twenty years to the day later,

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Speaker 2: the question still remains what actually happened inside that submarine

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Speaker 2: and to that submarine on that day, August tenth, two thousand.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. The official explanation, even at

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Speaker 1: first was suspicious. There were problems that cropped up with

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Speaker 1: it immediately. The primary issue was the high amount of

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Speaker 1: secrecy involved. The Russian government refused all international offers of assistance,

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Speaker 1: which can you know, if you're suspicious, it can function

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Speaker 1: as tacit confirmation that they had perhaps some secret technology

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Speaker 1: on there or something that they were not comfortable with

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Speaker 1: other nations discovering. These things went back and forth. So

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Speaker 1: we're going to jump around in time just a little

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Speaker 1: bit right now. The official explanation is that the authorities

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Speaker 1: say the crew of the Curse was preparing to load

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Speaker 1: a dummy torpedo, a practice torpedo, right, because these are

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Speaker 1: naval exercises. That doesn't mean it's actual war, so they

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Speaker 1: don't want to shoot genuine torpedoes. And this torpedo that

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Speaker 1: they were loading, which was a sixty five seventy six

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Speaker 1: kit torpedo, had two problems. First, it contained a liquid

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Speaker 1: called high test peroxide. This is not the kind of

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Speaker 1: stuff that you put in your hair when you're a

375
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Speaker 1: teenager or something. Second problem, they claimed there was a

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Speaker 1: manufacturing defect, and that there was a faulty weld in

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Speaker 1: the casing of the sub of the torpedo. And so

378
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Speaker 1: when they were loading this on, this high test peroxide

379
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Speaker 1: or HTP leaked from this faulty weld, and it caused

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Speaker 1: the ed who's fuel to explode. That fuel is kerosene, right,

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Speaker 1: and kerosene is a friend of explosions.

382
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Speaker 2: And remember, by the way, this is a sixty five

383
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Speaker 2: type weapon. That's the aircraft carrier killer that we were

384
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Speaker 2: talking about, A very large weapon or a very large

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Speaker 2: piece of ammunition, I don't what you call it around

386
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Speaker 2: if you will. So, so when the explosion occurred, mixed

387
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Speaker 2: with the things we're talking about there, the kerosene and

388
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Speaker 2: the HTP, it blew off the inner and outer doors

389
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Speaker 2: to the torpedo, so the things that are really helping

390
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Speaker 2: in a lot of ways to keep the water out,

391
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Speaker 2: which is you know, generally a good thing when you're

392
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Speaker 2: inside a metal container inside the ocean. Then it started

393
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Speaker 2: a fire. It destroyed the bulkhead, the separator essentially between

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Speaker 2: the first and second compartments, like the ones we were

395
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Speaker 2: talking about there where the control room, by the way,

396
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Speaker 2: was in one of those So when that bulkhead was

397
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Speaker 2: destroyed between the first and second compartments and that fire's going,

398
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Speaker 2: you actually had probably at least in all likelihood most

399
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Speaker 2: if not all of the crew within the control room

400
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Speaker 2: that people running the boat, running the sub they probably

401
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Speaker 2: all perished or at least were badly injured and perish

402
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Speaker 2: soon after. That really really messed up. And then we

403
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Speaker 2: have that second explosion that was noticed by a lot

404
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Speaker 2: of the crew that was on the surface, and that

405
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Speaker 2: really is an issue when you don't have access to

406
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Speaker 2: controls of a ship that you were on or a boat.

407
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no kidding. And this we know that that

408
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Speaker 1: initial blast occurs, right, the theory is, or the official

409
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Speaker 1: explanation is the way that you just outlined it, bat

410
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Speaker 1: and the idea is that two minutes, in fifteen seconds Ballpark,

411
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Speaker 1: that initial blast, the submarine, the Kursk, had reached the

412
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Speaker 1: floor of the sea, and the intensity of this initial

413
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Speaker 1: fire eventually triggered the detonation of multiple torpedo warheads on board.

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Speaker 1: It is impossible in the English language to accurately describe

415
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Speaker 1: how terrible that is because remember earlier in the episode,

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Speaker 1: just for an example, we pointed out that these warheads

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Speaker 1: could weigh nine hundred and ninety pounds. This is calamitous.

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Speaker 1: That second explosion was the equivalent of over two tons

419
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Speaker 1: of T and T. But as we said, there were

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Speaker 1: people who had a lot of problems with this explanation.

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Speaker 3: No, no doubt, the torpedo manufacturer themselves completely contested this

422
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Speaker 3: version of events. In addition to that, the official story

423
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Speaker 3: seemed to contradict Russia's own claims about the hull of

424
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Speaker 3: the craft. Seemed completely inconceivable that that double hull design,

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Speaker 3: with those nine water tight compartments, which are obviously meant

426
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Speaker 3: to fill up in the event of a breach to

427
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Speaker 3: keep it from completely being compromised, that it would have

428
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Speaker 3: taken just the absolute most violent explosion to pierce those

429
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Speaker 3: very very fortified watertight compartments. So let's go into some

430
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Speaker 3: of the possibilities. We start off with maybe the most plausible,

431
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 3: like using kind of process of elimination and just a

432
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Speaker 3: common sense. At the time, senior officers in the Russian

433
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Speaker 3: Navy claimed that the Curse had collided with a British

434
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Speaker 3: or American sub that was running spying maneuvers out in

435
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Speaker 3: the Barns Sea.

436
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is interesting neymar because what we see

437
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: here is that both quote unquote sides of the militaries

438
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: involved are accusing the other ones of spy. So our

439
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: US position is the curse was said. They were doing exercises,

440
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 1: but the real goal was, or at least one of

441
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: the goals was to spy on the US right and

442
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: detect our maritime presence. That makes total sense. I'm not

443
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 1: saying that's untrue. It probably is because military exercises or

444
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 1: war games or whatever you want to call them, are

445
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: often they often have multiple ulterior motives. Right, Let's show

446
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 1: an antagonistic force that we can like China a few

447
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 1: years back. Let's show the US that we can also

448
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 1: shoot satellites out of the sky. Let's call that. Let's

449
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: call that a test for the environment or whatever.

450
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 2: They said.

451
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: That was hilarious. Maybe I'm being a jerk. I don't know.

452
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: I don't think so. Just speaking of in part of

453
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 2: another bit of submarine research that we were doing together,

454
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 2: we heard, and I'm going to quote this, it's from

455
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: PBS's No. They discussed how way back when, in the

456
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:12,040
Speaker 2: nineteen sixties and seventies, the United States militaries, specifically the Navy,

457
00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 2: working with several others. They miked the entire ocean, or

458
00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 2: almost the entire ocean. And this is something that we're

459
00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 2: probably gonna do an entire episode on if we haven't

460
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 2: done it already, which maybe we have. I don't think

461
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: we have. But there were microphones everywhere.

462
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 3: As an audio nerd, the logistics of that alone is

463
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 3: blowing my mind. I mean, micing up a drum kit

464
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 3: is a pain in the butt, you know. Can you

465
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 3: imagine micing the entire ocean? Any audio files or studio

466
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 3: rats out there know what we're talking about.

467
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 2: Well, it's I guess less sophisticated than you may imagine.

468
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 2: It's more about visual readouts. But it just knowing that

469
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 2: the US military was listening to everything to identify exactly

470
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 2: where Russia was operating or at the time, the Soviet Union.

471
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: It's everybody's doing it, that's all.

472
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: And again no shade here at all, because we have

473
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: to remember, you know, everybody is trying to do this.

474
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: The US had satellites taking photographs before they could figure

475
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,959
Speaker 1: out a like a viable way to send those photographs

476
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 1: back to Earth. They literally were Paul beat me here.

477
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: They were literally dropping Filman from the sky. And then

478
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: sending some porschemuck out to try to catch it. So like, yeah,

479
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: everybody is everybody is spying on each other in some way.

480
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: And the reason we're bringing up this dichotomy is because

481
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: the Russian claims are not that they were spying on

482
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: us or British craft. The Russian claims or that they

483
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: were participating in these naval exercises and they were being

484
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: shadowed by those those dastardly the ne'er do wells over

485
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: at NATO. So they're saying that the West was spying

486
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: on us. It seems like everybody was spying on each other,

487
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: if you want to be completely fair, everybody was spying

488
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: on each other because that's the right thing to do.

489
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: But then if that's the case, why wasn't there a

490
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: quicker response to the disaster on the curse if it

491
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: were indeed an accident. Sorry, no one could see this

492
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: on the zoom, but I just got so pleased with

493
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: myself and like leaned back from the mic and looked

494
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: at you guys.

495
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 4: We were also all nodding pretty heavily.

496
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I love the one upsmanship or brinksmanship.

497
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 4: Mate. Now, we went into that one the other day.

498
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 4: But I think this is more one upmanships like you

499
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 4: to spy on me, bro, let me spy on you.

500
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 4: Oh you can just spy on me. I'm gonna double

501
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 4: hard spy on you, bro.

502
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: You know that's the way we spy on the whole world.

503
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm gonna mic the ocean.

504
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: So the thing about this is that everything we just

505
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: said is true. None of this is None of this

506
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: is conspiracy theory.

507
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 3: De ocean problem and a MIC's space.

508
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 1: Sorry, no, no, what else can we mic?

509
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 4: Yes?

510
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 7: Oh?

511
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: Then we made smartphones. Now we have mics everywhere.

512
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 4: Right right.

513
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 3: I always think of that thing in Batman where they

514
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 3: turn every smartphone in the world into a listening device

515
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 3: that is not beyond the realm of possibility.

516
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 4: These days, it's it's pretty pretty terrifying.

517
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: But total total aside. I think it's just a fun experiment,

518
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: and I would love to hear you guys take on it,

519
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 1: and I'd love to hear from our fellow conspiracy realist

520
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: about this. So it's no secret, you know, like the

521
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: I'm not going to put any of us on the

522
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: spot specifically, but I know between the three of us

523
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: we have a lot of like proxies and privacy things

524
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: on our phones and on our devices. I wanted to

525
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: do an experiment where I removed those you know what

526
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: are ostensibly protections to see how the ad, how the

527
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: ad magic algorithms work. And I've been I've been trying

528
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: to build an AD profile as like a deranged billionaire.

529
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 1: So I'll be carrying my phone around, maybe open Facebook

530
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: and an OS or something, and just be like megayacht price, price,

531
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:23,240
Speaker 1: megayacht diamonds wholesale.

532
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 3: Yes, Tyrannosaurus Rex skeleton, yes, whole You know.

533
00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: So, if anybody wants to do an experiment with that

534
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 1: and join us, we'd love to hear your results. So far,

535
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: I have not been getting targeted ads for a megayacht,

536
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: So maybe I'm just not doing it right. Maybe you

537
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: know what, the system probably already knows that I can't

538
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:42,839
Speaker 1: actually buy it.

539
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 3: I think megayachts are the kind of things that don't

540
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,960
Speaker 3: really need to be advertised for. They just kind of

541
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 3: make them to order.

542
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: You know that is true? There's not there's there's probably

543
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 1: not some uh, some guide a department in Ikea going,

544
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 1: how am I going to move all these meggie yachts?

545
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 1: People just keep wasting money on couches. But anyway, yes,

546
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 1: the spying stuff is real null. To your point, this

547
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: does seem like a plausible explanation, does it not. For

548
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: someone to say, for members of the Russian Navy to

549
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: say the Curse cats collided with someone that was spying

550
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: on them. It has a propagandistic effect too, because the

551
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: implication here is that the other side is somehow incompetent or.

552
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 3: Culpa bule, you know what I mean. Like it's like, look,

553
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 3: it was their fault. They shouldn't have been there in

554
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 3: the first place, and they killed all our beloved comrades.

555
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 3: It's a good way to spin it to maybe redirect

556
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 3: some of that anger we're talking about about whom you know,

557
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 3: wives who'd lost their husbands, et cetera. You know, mothers

558
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 3: who'd lost their sons. Let's let's point this, you know,

559
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 3: shotgun blast of grief and anxiety toward the enemy or

560
00:35:57,200 --> 00:35:58,280
Speaker 3: at least an other.

561
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 2: And secrecy is well, actually it's it's all kind of secrecy.

562
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 2: From this point on, there are a lot of even

563
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 2: more conspiratorial thoughts going into what actually occurred here to

564
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 2: the curse and we're going to talk about those after

565
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 2: a quick word from our sponsor, anybody down to talk

566
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 2: secret torpedoes always.

567
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 1: That's one of my main things, you know what I mean.

568
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: It's like number one on my LinkedIn is talk to

569
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: me about secret torpedoes. I'm kidding. I haven't been on

570
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 1: LinkedIn forever. I don't know what it says. It's true, though,

571
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 1: there are secrets so more conspiratorial ideas. One of the

572
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: one of the ones you will see frequently is that

573
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 1: the Russian government was being very secretive about the wreckage

574
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: of the Curse because they were carrying, like we had

575
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: kind of speculation earlier, they were carrying top secret technology,

576
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 1: specifically a classified ultra high speed torpedo known as the

577
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: Squall or in Russian shkval. NATO at the time was

578
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 1: very concerned about this, and so for some time you

579
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: would see speculation that maybe they were taking this off

580
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 1: the drawing board and into action too soon, and something

581
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: had gone wrong with this new technology. I mean, you

582
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: know what kind of logically makes sense, right, new technology

583
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: is super treacherous. How many people died in a space program, right?

584
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,919
Speaker 1: How many people have died in experiments with new munitions,

585
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: with new aircraft? You know what I mean. It's it's unfortunately,

586
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: it's a cost of doing the business that is war.

587
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 4: But here's the problem.

588
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 3: There's a lot of speculation by you know, military experts

589
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 3: and historians that these this technology never really existed.

590
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 4: So that puts a little bit of a wrench into

591
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 4: this theory.

592
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 2: But but how would they know it's hyper classified.

593
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 3: This hyper classified mega torpedoes. It's true, I don't know,

594
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,919
Speaker 3: that's a I know, I know you're joking their Matt,

595
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 3: But it's a good point you make. I mean, there

596
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 3: really is no way of knowing if that level of

597
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 3: secrecy that we know the Russians are capable.

598
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 4: Of was was was a thing.

599
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 3: Uh So let's talk let's let'slet's pivot away a little

600
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 3: bit to the American side of things. You'll see some

601
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 3: of these claims that the US submarine uh, the well,

602
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 3: a pair of submarines, actually the USS Memphis and the

603
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 3: Toledo uh sank the Cursk with their torpedoes or you

604
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 3: know what's the official line of the Russian government is

605
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 3: that they collided with them while they were out on

606
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:53,399
Speaker 3: those spying expeditions or whatever you call it kind of exercises.

607
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 3: And this theory goes like this, the Toledo accidentally collided

608
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,720
Speaker 3: with the Cursk, and so the Memphis then open fire

609
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 3: when fearing retaliation, and the resulting fire ignited the torpedoes.

610
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: So kind of like at a party somewhere where things

611
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: get out of hand, somebody bumps into someone and someone's like, hey,

612
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: why'd you bump into me? And then someone else preemptively

613
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 1: tries to end a fight by starting one. It sounds strange,

614
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: but it also I don't know about you all, but

615
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 1: it feels like it has the ring of plausibility to me,

616
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 1: because accidents do happen and people are already at such

617
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 1: an enormously tense point here.

618
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,919
Speaker 3: Isn't that a weird escalation? Though, Ben, I guess that's

619
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 3: to your point. The tension is a big part of

620
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:46,839
Speaker 3: it because they shouldn't have been there in the first place, right,

621
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:49,879
Speaker 3: So it was almost like they were discovered and then

622
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 3: it's right, or these are these international waters? No, right,

623
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 3: this is definitely they're They're not supposed to be there.

624
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 3: So if the curse discovers this American spy craft, it

625
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 3: would be it would be on the table for them

626
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 3: to open fire.

627
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 4: Anyway. I'm just want to make sure I'm understanding.

628
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 1: You know, that's a really good question. From the way

629
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 1: the uh, from the way the situation is occurring. I imagine,

630
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 1: and listeners please correct us here, but I imagine this

631
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: is either an international lane of traffic or or an

632
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: international waters area, or maybe there are conflicting claims about

633
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: the sovereignty over the sea here. Because you know, as

634
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: we know, you think land borders are messy, ocean borders

635
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: are hilarious. They're they're a pile of dangerous spaghetti that

636
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: people get killed over.

637
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 4: Yeah.

638
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 3: Man, you can't build an ocean wall, right, I mean

639
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 3: not yet. I guess you could maybe, but it'd be

640
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 3: pretty expensive and pretty messy.

641
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: We you know, we were really focused on the microphones

642
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: for a while. We haven't upgraded to the wall yet,

643
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: but we'll get there. So it feels realistic, but it

644
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:11,480
Speaker 1: also feels maybe a little bit too convenient. The problem

645
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,880
Speaker 1: is that, of course, these lines of speculation thrive because

646
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: of the secrecy immediately following the disaster and the years

647
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:25,439
Speaker 1: following that. But let's get really conspiratorial here. We can

648
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: start connecting odd dots. According to the stories, one of

649
00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: the US submarines in the area had its emergency booy deployed.

650
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: Like we said earlier, an emergency buoy is an automatic

651
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: thing that happens as a means of assisting search and

652
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 1: rescue efforts. It only deploys generally in an emergency. The

653
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: Russian Kurse buoy, as I think you had said earlier,

654
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: Matt was disabled, and the US buoy that Lloyd was

655
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:06,440
Speaker 1: apparently recovered by Russian forces. One of the subs, the Memphis,

656
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,799
Speaker 1: went to port to get repairs in Norway, so there

657
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: was some kind of damage to it. The implication is,

658
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 1: and you'll see people claiming that there is photographic evidence

659
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: of the USS Memphis and that these photos show the

660
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 1: hatch covering this emergency buoy is missing. So you start

661
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 1: to see kind of the threads connecting here. But that's

662
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: only part of the story. There's other speculation about the

663
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: USS Toledo.

664
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, so supposedly after this event went down, the Toledo

665
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 2: itself needs to get some repairs, so it heads on

666
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 2: over to a facility within the US and once it

667
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 2: gets in there, absolutely no one is allowed to see it.

668
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: The personnel that generally would be doing those repairs and

669
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,120
Speaker 2: inspecting and making sure everything's okay, taking reports on that

670
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 2: they just don't get to look at it and then

671
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 2: check this out. There's supposedly video evidence from the Curse

672
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: that shows several large gashes on the hole or you know,

673
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 2: a lot of damage on the hole that's fairly long,

674
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 2: and it seems to show that the metal is bent

675
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 2: inward as though there was an explosive force on the

676
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 2: outside pushing that metal in. Now, what we do need

677
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,160
Speaker 2: to take into account here is the concept of implosion.

678
00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:36,839
Speaker 2: When you've got a pressurized container, right that then when

679
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 2: there's a ton of in this case ocean water pressure

680
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 2: on the outside and exterior of that, let's say just

681
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 2: a can, a big aluminum can, if there's an if

682
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:50,839
Speaker 2: there's sufficient pressure on the outside, then an implosion can

683
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: occur where there would be essentially a crushing of that

684
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,439
Speaker 2: container and the explosion and would cause it to look

685
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 2: a very certain way. In a lot of times, if

686
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 2: that pressure is large enough, you would just see fragments

687
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 2: of metal as like that's what is left over. That

688
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 2: is not what happened with the Curs for sure, at

689
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 2: least a full implosion, because it wasn't at full depth

690
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 2: there when it occurred where or you know, fifteen thousand

691
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,279
Speaker 2: I think feet would be around the time when you

692
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 2: get like full crushing.

693
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 1: Depth, right, And the curse was at three hundred and

694
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 1: fifty four feet under the surface or one hundred and

695
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:34,719
Speaker 1: eight meters.

696
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 2: Right, which is nothing compared to you know, crushing death

697
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 2: or deeper depths, so, you know, implosion. I don't know.

698
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: All I'm saying is it just still feels a little fishy,

699
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 2: but it doesn't necessarily prove anything.

700
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: Oh fishy, yes, yeah, yeah, I mean it's true. But

701
00:44:56,040 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: there's there's another there's an even weirder series of rumors

702
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: about stuff that happened on land after this, right.

703
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 4: Yes, and this is even fishier almost to me. It's this.

704
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 4: The story goes that.

705
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 3: Almost immediately after this incident, a quite sizable loan or

706
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 3: debt to the United States on Russia's behalf was forgiven

707
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 3: and Russia was allowed to take out an additional loan.

708
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 3: That doesn't happen. You know, we don't to what end,

709
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 3: what's the reasoning there? Very unusual. Also, in the days

710
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 3: after the incident, it turns out that George Tenant went

711
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 3: to Moscow.

712
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 4: If you know that name doesn't ring a bell.

713
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 3: He was the first acting CIA director in history to

714
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 3: go to the Russian capitol, which is a big deal.

715
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 3: And that last part is definitely true, but it's also

716
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 3: important to this there's no causation here. These events are

717
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 3: not necessarily connect did but it sure does make you think,

718
00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 3: doesn't it Fellas Yeah, this.

719
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: Is kind of the juicy stuff, right, because George Tenant

720
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:16,760
Speaker 1: did travel to Moscow just eight days later on August eighteenth.

721
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:22,240
Speaker 1: It was officially an invitation from Russian officials to discuss

722
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: ways to counter international terrorism, but the Nbass refused to

723
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 1: give any further details about this, and Uncle Sam stonewall

724
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: at the media pretty hard core. So now we as

725
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: we said this happened almost twenty years ago to the day,

726
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: we have the benefit of retrospect, We have a lot

727
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: of other intervening research, and some of this later research

728
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: has has has drawn conclusions or gathered evidence that's just

729
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 1: disappointing enough to maybe sound like the truth. So what

730
00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 1: if the Cursk wasn't using these secret high tech what

731
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 1: do you call it, Matt, hyper classified? It's been in

732
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: your favorite phrase, Yeah, these hyper classified squall torpedoes. But

733
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: what if instead, as a very cash strapped navy, they

734
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: were relying on cheap, old fashioned technology, because you know,

735
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: that's another line item that you don't have to add

736
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: to the budget. There's a former Royal Naval Engineering College

737
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 1: lecturer named Maurice Stradling, and he's also a torpedo designer,

738
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:37,400
Speaker 1: which sounds like a really interesting hobby. It's probably a job,

739
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: but it's a cool idea as a hobby. So he

740
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:43,720
Speaker 1: started comparing and contrasting stuff. He looked at the data

741
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: from the Kursk disaster and it reminded him of this

742
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 1: pretty obscure story about a similar explosion aboard a British

743
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: sub in nineteen fifty five. I had never heard of this.

744
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 1: I think most people in the US, aside from professional

745
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 1: explosion investigators like Rachel Lance, have probably not heard of this.

746
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 3: That's so amazing that you mentioned that, Ben, That's what

747
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 3: I was scratching my I had a thought and then

748
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 3: it went away, and it was Rachel Lance man for

749
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,480
Speaker 3: people that maybe don't listen to the other show that

750
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 3: Ben and I do, ridiculous history. We interviewed Rachel Lance

751
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 3: about the sinking of the SS of the Hunley. Excuse me,

752
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 3: it's not the SS, which was like a World War

753
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 3: One no I'm sorry. A Civil war submarine that was

754
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 3: made out of like it's like a flintstone sub where

755
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:34,799
Speaker 3: you have to crank it with your feet.

756
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 4: And she is the.

757
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:40,080
Speaker 3: Foremost expert on underwater explosions, which we joked was a

758
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 3: very very specific the specialization, and she agreed, but yeah,

759
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 3: I would love to hear her take on this.

760
00:48:48,040 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 2: Well, just to jump back to that, Yeah, that's amazing.

761
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:51,680
Speaker 2: I'm sorry that I missed that, guys.

762
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 4: But the.

763
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 2: Other disaster that we're talking about here where there was

764
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 2: an explosion due to some kind of malfunctioning torpedo. Let's

765
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 2: jump to a boat called the Sight on the SIDN.

766
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 2: There was some kind of experimental torpedo on board and

767
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:19,239
Speaker 2: there was an explosion. Here's the deal, though, this torpedo

768
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: contained the substance that's thought to have been within the curse,

769
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:28,200
Speaker 2: that HTP or high test peroxide, and the thought was

770
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: the crew of the Sight On we're loading this torpedo

771
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 2: and that's when the explosion occurred. When this blast happened,

772
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 2: thirteen men died.

773
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,200
Speaker 1: So this is fascinating and this is something we know

774
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:49,399
Speaker 1: again in retrospect, some of the official findings of this

775
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 1: tragedy with the British sub didn't match the actual findings

776
00:49:55,320 --> 00:49:59,120
Speaker 1: carried out by that secret Board of Inquiry into the

777
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 1: disaster once this report was late later became public, the

778
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 1: found that a stainless steel pipe carrying this high test

779
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: peroxide to the engine of the sub had burst, and

780
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: something the public didn't know at the time. The original

781
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:26,240
Speaker 1: investigation found incompetence on the part of the submarine crew

782
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: again of this UK boat, this Sidon. They found that

783
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 1: the torpedo had accidentally been started or ignited, you know,

784
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 1: before it was fired out of the sub, which is

785
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 1: kind of like a really really terrible comparison. Imagine torpedoes

786
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,240
Speaker 1: at this time in the fifties a little bit similar

787
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: to firecrackers, like you gotta get ignite them and shoot them.

788
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: But you're in a sub remember, you can't run away,

789
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 1: so the timing is very, very important. So the idea

790
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:07,279
Speaker 1: here is that there had been maybe a little bit

791
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:12,359
Speaker 1: of a cover up or at the least public you know,

792
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: public reputation management on the part of the UK government.

793
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 1: And importantly, to Stradling's point, the torpedoes on the Cursk

794
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 1: also had HTP, leading Stradling to believe that this proves

795
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: a similar disaster led to the destruction of this Russian submarine.

796
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: So he is finding in favor of an accident, you know,

797
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: not a planned act of belligerence, and the explosion of

798
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,479
Speaker 1: this practice torpedo in the Curse, he says, set off

799
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: this chain reaction with the live warheads, and this caused

800
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:54,320
Speaker 1: the explosion that later sent the Curse to its watery grave.

801
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 2: And this is the exact story that if you go

802
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 2: to the Moscow Time Times, the Independent News out of Russia,

803
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 2: this is the exact story that they have that was

804
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 2: published in August of twenty nineteen of what the true

805
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 2: fate of the Curse was.

806
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 9: Independent Come on, maybe it is okay, Well, what do

807
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 9: you think happened to the Curse?

808
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 3: Maybe a freak chemical accident, this enemy forces attack scenario.

809
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 4: I don't know, what do you guys think.

810
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 3: I do think the plausible thing is perhaps that oops

811
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:38,320
Speaker 3: followed by boom boom.

812
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 4: That's me, but I don't know.

813
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:46,240
Speaker 1: Well, there's a great point brought up by some former

814
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: CIA analysts and people familiar with the intelligence community. One

815
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 1: guy in particular stood out to me, a guy named

816
00:52:52,360 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Edmonds, and he says, you know, something's kind of tragic.

817
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:00,440
Speaker 1: He says, there's simply a tendency for acts evidence to

818
00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 1: happen in Russia. And again we're not being anti Russian here,

819
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: this is what this guy say. He's saying that Russia

820
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 1: appears to have this process whereby they often combine a

821
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 1: willingness to take risk with outdated infrastructure that just can't

822
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: support that risk taking culture, and that this creates an

823
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 1: environment where accidents are more likely. This is a longstanding

824
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 1: observation slash accusation of the Russian military, which is, you know,

825
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 1: to put a fine point on it, and to be

826
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 1: brutally descriptive, the military of Russia has been repeatedly accused

827
00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 1: of throwing bodies at a problem until they consider that

828
00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: problem solved, you know what I mean. That's why one

829
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:53,000
Speaker 1: of the most popular and even plausible theory conspiracy theories

830
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: in the world of space exploration isn't whether people went

831
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 1: to the Moon, it's how many cosmonauts might have died

832
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 1: before Jurigergarren got into space and came back.

833
00:54:03,560 --> 00:54:06,279
Speaker 4: Not to mention how many dogs died.

834
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 6: And.

835
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 2: How guilty is any other country and including and especially

836
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 2: the United States. Of course, even with the inflated budgets,

837
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:23,680
Speaker 2: and you know the amount of importance that's placed on

838
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 2: it culturally and publicly.

839
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 4: No, no question about it.

840
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 1: So let us know what you think happened there on

841
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:35,120
Speaker 1: August tenth, two thousand, which it's crazy to realize that

842
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: it's almost two decades gone now, but we want to

843
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 1: hear from you. You can find us on Facebook, you

844
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,280
Speaker 1: can find us on Instagram, you can find us on Twitter.

845
00:54:43,760 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 1: We always love to recommend for the Facebook friendly folks

846
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 1: in the audience our community page. Here's where it gets crazy.

847
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, for all you fbfs out there, you can be

848
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:58,280
Speaker 3: our fb BFFs by joining Here's where it gets crazy.

849
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 3: All you have to do is name one or three

850
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,719
Speaker 3: or you know, for all four of us, or just

851
00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:05,440
Speaker 3: you know, say something that lets us know that you're

852
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 3: a real human being with actual interest in the topics

853
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 3: that are discussed there, which range from specific things around

854
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 3: our new episode drops to just really freewheeling conversation about

855
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:18,280
Speaker 3: anything and everything conspiracy realism related.

856
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 2: If you don't want to do that, or you want

857
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 2: to do that and you want to do more, you

858
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,879
Speaker 2: can give us a call. Our number is one eight

859
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:34,840
Speaker 2: three three S T T.

860
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 1: Living towards the finish line. But I think it helped

861
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:39,279
Speaker 1: when you moved your hand again.

862
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're the conductor, Matt, you are the conductor.

863
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:47,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Give us a call, leave us a message. We

864
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 2: will hear it. You might get on the air. As

865
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:54,839
Speaker 2: you know by now, we're making a lot more episodes

866
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 2: that may include your voice. So send those things in

867
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:01,320
Speaker 2: tell us what you think. A lot of times, the

868
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Speaker 2: more concise the better. But it doesn't have to be.

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Speaker 2: If you don't want to do any of that stuff

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00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,840
Speaker 2: but you still want to write to us, consider it

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Speaker 2: your plan of action to send us an email too.

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Speaker 8: Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

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Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.