WEBVTT - Ben Bowlin 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:13.240 Hi everybody, and welcome back the season three. It only 0:00:13.360 --> 0:00:15.760 took a year for me to get this new one done. 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:20.080 It's Access Podcast, the podcast about podcast and if you're 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:22.640 new listener, my name is Mattie Stali. Eleven years ago, 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:24.880 I left the number one morning show in San Francisco 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:27.400 to join the startup team at Stitcher, and I've been 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.479 in podcasting ever since. I'm the vice president of podcast 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:34.840 Programming for iHeart Radio and in general, I'm a podcast nerd. 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.199 I love podcast and I love helping listeners find new 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:41.040 shows and also get to know the folks that they 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:43.800 already love. This week on the show, we're gonna meet 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.920 our new producer, Morgan, who's gonna tell us about three 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:49.920 shows you should be listening to. But right now I 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:52.480 want to tell you about our guest. I love this guy, 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:56.279 Ben Bolan. Ben. He began as an intern at How 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:00.240 Stuff Works in two thousand seven, early days of podcast Thing, 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:03.000 and in two thousand and eight, with his stamped colleague, 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:06.720 Ben created Stuff They Don't Want You to Know What. 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:09.840 She hosts along with another one of my favorite podcasts, 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:14.240 Ridiculous History. Let's take a listen to Ridiculous History and 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:17.640 then we're gonna start a conversation with Ben. But if 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:21.280 you want to be a citizen of the United States, 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:25.640 there is some paperwork involved as well as some verbiage. 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:28.120 If you're decided oath, got to speak an oath, you 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:31.760 gotta put your bloody thumb print on a document, sign 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:35.720 your name and in blood. Now, well, you know it's 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:38.160 changed over time. You still have to have interviews, you 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:46.760 have to take citizenship test, naturalizations where they call all right, Ben, 0:01:46.880 --> 0:01:49.240 I think of getting close to being able to ask 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:52.240 if podcasting is something you always wanted to do, but 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.320 we're not quite there yet. What made you actually want 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:57.960 to get into podcasting or was it something that you 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:01.600 kind of fell into? Oh man, little bit of both, 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:06.800 to be completely candid. So I started working for How 0:02:06.920 --> 0:02:10.240 Stuff Works as an intern in the days of your 0:02:10.760 --> 0:02:14.720 pre podcasting, and when we first as a company began 0:02:14.960 --> 0:02:20.359 making podcast I immediately wanted to be part of the 0:02:20.400 --> 0:02:23.560 movement because you know, I know you're the same way 0:02:23.560 --> 0:02:26.600 with this, Maddie. I've always been in love with radio 0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:29.840 since I was a wee tyke, and this seemed like 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.440 a way to participate in all the things that I 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:38.240 loved about radio growing up. Now again. To be honest, 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:42.919 we had no idea how far we would go with this. 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.960 Our first podcast were only about five to ten minutes long, 0:02:47.280 --> 0:02:52.200 which sounds crazy nowadays, but I I went into this 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:55.680 with my eyes wide open, and my mission was to 0:02:55.840 --> 0:03:01.000 be on as many quality podcast as possible. To date, 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:06.240 I have guested on numerous podcasts. I've produced many, I've 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:11.360 hosted and written for four to five and never looked back. 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.360 So I fell into it. But I guess maybe the 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.400 best way to say it is I I fell into 0:03:17.440 --> 0:03:20.160 it in a hopes and dreams kind of way. If 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:24.320 I was not podcasting for this company, I would have 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:27.520 ended up podcasting somewhere else. I just love it. I 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:29.760 love the medium, in the format, the whole nine. Man. 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:32.320 It's funny that you mentioned, you know, being an old 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.000 fan of radio. I started doing radio shows in my 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:37.120 bedroom when I was ten years old. And part of 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.480 my job now is I go and work with radio 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:42.320 talent about podcasting and kind of you know, how they 0:03:42.320 --> 0:03:45.560 can create great podcasts. And one thing that they'll they'll 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:47.960 always look at me and say, is so this is 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:49.680 just kind of like the radio we used to do. 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.320 When we've talked a lot and had a little more 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:54.800 time on our hands. And I think it's true. What 0:03:54.880 --> 0:03:57.440 were the earlier radio shows that you listened to that 0:03:57.640 --> 0:04:02.040 got you hooked? Oh, man ky. I am a huge 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.760 fan of late night AM shows. That's where you can 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:09.000 hear some really cool stuff, and then late night college 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:13.120 radio stations. So I loved eighty eight point five here 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:16.680 in Atlanta, which is a g s U station. And 0:04:16.920 --> 0:04:20.240 I was always a big fan of a show called 0:04:20.400 --> 0:04:25.040 Coast to Coast AM. Yeah, Art Bell and George Nori. 0:04:25.320 --> 0:04:30.880 I thought those guys had such tremendous interview skills, and 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:34.680 they were profoundly compassionate. You know, they spoke to some 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.440 very eccentric people, but they heard them out and so 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:42.520 to me, that kind of talk was transformative, and it 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:45.640 was wide ranging, and it was just as much about 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.200 the personality of the host or the talent as it 0:04:49.279 --> 0:04:53.440 was about the information they were imparting. And I feel 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:58.360 like that's a trend that has continued to evolve. You know, 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:02.679 now more and more often when you hear really good radio, 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.200 it feels like a podcast. At the end of the day, 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.440 it's good storytelling. That's what I always tell folks is 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.080 that you know, great podcast is a great story. It's 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:13.120 got a beginning, middle end, and you feel like you've 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.240 gone somewhere and you've learned something. Which is another thing 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.640 that I love about podcasting is I feel like I'm 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:20.440 kind of one of those curmudgeony people that feel like 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.080 people don't read enough anymore. They don't educate themselves as 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.520 much as I think they should, but they do and 0:05:25.560 --> 0:05:27.880 podcasting is now filling that whole. What do you feel 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:29.920 about that as far as podcasting being, you know, kind 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:34.400 of a greater greater good for society. Absolutely, not to 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:38.080 sound too over zealous, but I absolutely agree with you, Maddie. 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:42.279 As a fellow curmudgeon, I think we're on the same page. 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:48.200 Whenever I am setting out to produce rights or develop 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:52.479 a show or an episode, my first question is always this. 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:56.000 When someone starts listening to a show or an episode 0:05:56.240 --> 0:06:00.640 and they get to the end, what is changed within them? 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:04.760 Have they learned something new? Have they have they changed 0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:10.080 their mind about something? Because yes, podcasts are storytelling, but 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.839 just like the reader of a novel, the audience is 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:17.080 part of the story. They're the main character. The most 0:06:17.120 --> 0:06:19.560 important part of any show is going to be the 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:23.839 people who listen. To and support it, so I absolutely agree. 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:27.000 I would even go a little bit further and argue 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:32.440 that to a very real degree, podcasts are democratizing education. 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.880 The things that people used to have to go to 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:39.159 grad school to learn, they can get the information for 0:06:39.440 --> 0:06:43.760 free now in the form of a podcast. And it 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:46.920 doesn't matter where they live, it doesn't matter what their 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:53.400 socioeconomic position is. This is a fundamentally game changing thing, 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:56.080 and I think it's for the better. I teach at 0:06:56.120 --> 0:06:58.320 university and I've seen over the last eight years how 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:01.440 students have become such fan it's a good podcast. And 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:04.080 I have students that the only radio they listened to 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.159 is NPR. I can't imagine saying that ten years ago, 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:09.080 because there's no way kids would have listened to NPR 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:11.160 ten years ago. But they're finding it through podcasts and 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.200 they really enjoyed the content absolutely. You know, one thing 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:16.520 I was always very interested in when you and I 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:20.840 originally met was the way that you have this let's 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:23.960 say a forty thousand foot view, to use the old cliche, 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:27.880 you can see the industry growing on its own. You 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.040 can see all the parallels has to radio, but you 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:34.760 can also see the tremendous potential it has in terms 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:38.960 of education, information and storytelling. So I don't know if 0:07:39.000 --> 0:07:40.640 I can say this on the air, Maddie, but you 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:42.680 are kind of my go to guy to send an 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:45.000 email if I'm like, Hey, what's happening with this thing? Oh? 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:47.840 I appreciate that, man. I just I love the medium 0:07:48.080 --> 0:07:50.480 off to talk about watching where it's at now and 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:53.280 where it was eleven years ago when I left radio 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:55.480 and went to Stitcher, because there were many years of 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:58.520 the last eleven years where I doubted whether we would 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:00.480 get to the point that we're at now. And it 0:08:00.640 --> 0:08:03.160 is so exciting to see where we're at now. I mean, 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:05.280 getting to work with how stuff works and have this 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:07.440 synergy that we've got going on right now. I don't 0:08:07.440 --> 0:08:08.880 want to get too in the weeds on that stuff, 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.080 but it is a lot of fun. This is definitely 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:14.280 the salad days. As far as I'm concerned with podcasting, 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.920 Oh oh yeah, I agree. I feel very Patrick Henry 0:08:17.920 --> 0:08:19.800 about it. In a way. It's like we have not 0:08:19.960 --> 0:08:24.000 yet begun to podcasts. We're sort of as an industry 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:25.880 if we look at it in terms of like a 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.440 maybe a three act structure or something as an industry. 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:34.000 We are at the beginning of the second act and 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:39.200 things are escalating at a delightful, if intimidating pace. Many 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:44.600 many people had never heard of podcast until Cereal was 0:08:44.720 --> 0:08:48.840 parodied on Saturday Night Live. You remember that, Yeah, on 0:08:48.920 --> 0:08:51.480 that real quick. I just remember teaching a class and 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.240 talking to a student about Cereal and having another student 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.600 walk in and closer ears and walk out and say, 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:58.480 you're gonna spoil it for me. And I was like, 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:01.080 that never happened before with a podcast, that people were 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.920 that into it. Yeah. Yeah, And that's the thing. It's 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.360 kind of a Malcolm Gladwell esque tipping point. You know. 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:13.240 Podcasts went from being let's say, relatively niche, sure obscure 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:17.720 in the late two thousand's to now being something that 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.360 certain professionals are just expected to have, like a business card. 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:24.280 If you're a comedian, for example, you have a podcast. 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:39.199 It's part of and Parcel. Now, so you host two 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:41.640 shows that I love, but for different reasons. Let me 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.360 start with Ridiculous History because it's my dream job. I 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.440 love history and the stuff that you guys find and 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:50.240 cover fascinates me. You actually did one of the podcasts 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:52.640 recently about the town in West Virginia that reached out 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.000 to the Soviets to get some stuff. I'm from West 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:58.040 Virginia and I consider myself a pretty good West Virginia 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:00.760 history buff. Didn't know that story. Where do you find 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:05.080 these awesome stories for that podcast? That is a fantastic question. 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:08.080 We go about it a number of different ways. So 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:10.680 any podcast I do, I think the audience is the 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:13.120 most important part of the show, so I want to 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:16.640 hear what they think they're fellow listeners would enjoy. So 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:19.880 we'll do a call for topics. Tell us something that 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:22.480 you think your friends around the world who also listen 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:24.719 to this show with dig and it gives people a 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.199 chance to tell their own story, you know, whether it's 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.120 West Virginia or whether it's somewhere in Indonesia. You know. 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:33.959 The second way will be my co host and my 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:37.640 producer and I will sit together and will pitch each 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:41.520 other these strange things that we found in our individual reading. 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.520 Will also go to resources like ask historians on Reddit 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:51.360 is fantastic. And then we have a team of research associates. Well, 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:53.400 I say a team. It's one guy, but he's awesome, 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:58.040 and he's awesome, and he's definitely part of the team. 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:00.839 What he'll do is back and there were a lot 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.440 more text articles on how stuff works. He would go 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:05.720 through and talk with some of the people writing those 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:08.679 articles or some people who are doing some podcasts or 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:10.760 video content, just to see if there were any hot 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:14.200 leads would give us a hotly. We are very very open. 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:16.800 We only have from a few rules. The only big 0:11:16.920 --> 0:11:20.560 rule we have is how recent is too recent, and 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:25.040 that's anything anything before the nineteen nineties we're pretty good 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.680 with because old is it makes me feel to say it, 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:29.880 and some of us listening maybe on the same page 0:11:29.920 --> 0:11:34.560 with me. The nineteen eighties were officially a long time ago. Oh, 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:38.080 I know when you're doing that podcast and you're finding 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:40.240 stuff and you put it together. I don't think people 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:43.600 realize how much goes into creating a podcast, because you know, 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:45.839 when you do a really good podcast, it sounds like 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:47.880 two guys just talking. And I always tell people when 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:49.480 they tell me, hey, I think I could do your 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:52.120 job because I can talk and I talk with my friends, 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:53.480 and I think, well, that's great. I'm doing my job 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:55.560 very well. If you can do that. How much work 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.480 goes into one of those podcasts to make that sound 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:02.440 that effortless before you do the show. So on Ridiculous History, 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:06.320 my team and I have a beautiful situation because we 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:10.000 already have report. We're all actually friends in real life. 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:13.320 We hang out and that makes a huge difference when 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:17.920 you're in the booth. We also do our own individual research. 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:20.920 A lot of people are surprised sometimes when I say, 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:25.200 you know, Ridiculous History doesn't really have an outline. We 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:27.320 have the gist of the story and then we go 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:31.920 into our own separate research. Our mission usually is to 0:12:32.600 --> 0:12:35.480 surprise one another in a positive way. And when you 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:38.200 can have that happen, it's beautiful. But you can only 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.720 have that happen if you put in the time to 0:12:40.880 --> 0:12:45.880 earn that sort of breezy conversational flow. So a good 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:48.400 way to think of it would be for a show 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:52.920 like Ridiculous History. Let's say every thirty minutes of show 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:58.599 you here is maybe on the light end, five or 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.800 six hours distill than concentrated. But that's again, I can't 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.719 emphasize this enough. That's kind of a light end. You've 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.360 probably had this happen to when you hear a concept 0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:10.320 and you're thinking this would make a great show where 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.640 this would make a great interview, and you start digging 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:16.200 into it and you have that woe rabbit hole moment. 0:13:16.520 --> 0:13:19.679 There have been times where been prepping for an episode 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:23.800 for two weeks and I'm still thinking, Okay, We've got 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:25.679 more work to do. We are in the land right 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:28.120 now with podcast ideas. If I had a dollar for 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.559 every email or phone call or text or a conversation 0:13:31.559 --> 0:13:33.960 I had where somebody was pitching me their idea, I'd 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.480 be super rich right now. But that's the thing. Putting 0:13:36.480 --> 0:13:38.680 out a quality podcast it's a lot more time and 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:42.240 effort than a lot of people realize. Oh yeah, especially 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:46.160 when you consider all the work that goes into the 0:13:46.200 --> 0:13:50.439 final product. Because there are one person, armies people who 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.960 are making great independent content and stem to Stern, it's 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:56.720 them for the entire show. And that stuff can be good, 0:13:56.720 --> 0:13:59.360 and that stuff can be great and astounding, but it's 0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:03.320 always is always helpful to move with a team, with 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.320 a unit. So one thing I think that we've learned 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:11.640 through our years of podcasting is that the information typically 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:16.520 already exists somewhere pretty often, and the person listening to 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:18.800 the show, they can read the book to you know 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.760 what I mean. They're looking for something extra, something else. 0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:26.280 They're looking for that story, that personality, that flavor. So 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:30.720 I spend a lot of time with new podcasters working 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:34.640 out some good podcast hygiene, that's what I call It. 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.600 Takes a lot of time, there are no shortcuts, and 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:40.760 it changes every time you've got a new person with you. 0:14:41.000 --> 0:14:43.920 One of the biggest things I recommend for anyone listening 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.640 who wants to do a podcast with their friends or 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:50.400 their pals. Regardless of what your podcast is about, whether 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:52.560 it is a deep dive in history, whether it is 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:56.480 something as niche as football in the nineteen thirties or 0:14:56.600 --> 0:14:58.880 something like that, no matter what it is, if you 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:02.080 have the opportunity, take an improv class, learned to yes 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:05.440 and learn to support your co host, and every episode 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:09.760 you do, try to make them sound like the smartest, funniest, 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.640 most fascinating person in the room. And if they do 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:18.080 the same thing, you will have an excellent and amazing conversation. 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.200 That's awesome advice. I want to shift over to talk 0:15:21.240 --> 0:15:24.080 about your other podcasts that you do, and I have 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.200 mixed feelings about stuff. They don't want you to know. 0:15:27.520 --> 0:15:30.360 I'm a occam's racer kind of guy. I honestly believe 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:32.680 the easiest answer is usually the right answer. You know, 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.760 there was no conspiracy to kill JFK. I'm firm on that. 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:38.960 When you're doing a show that's about conspiracies, how hard 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.360 is it to not go down rabbit holes and believe 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:45.920 everything is a conspiracy. Well, we live in an age 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:51.480 where being credulous is common and it's even applauded because 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:55.640 people are in information overload, and it's incredibly tempting to 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:58.440 just take a headline as an answer. I'd like to 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.560 clarify this for everyone listening. Stuff they don't want you 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:07.480 to know is a show about critical thinking applied to conspiracies. 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.520 I'm going somewhere with this, Mattie, I promise you so 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:12.880 so I mentioned earlier, you know, in the age of 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:18.280 instantaneous information and information overload, said, it's tempting to just 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:21.960 look at a headline or a buzzword and then use 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:25.080 that as a cognitive shortcut to pull up all the 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:29.200 other things you earlier associated with that. The term conspiracy 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:34.040 or conspiracy theory itself is a thought terminating cliche, and 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:40.280 it's often used to dismiss legitimate acts of corruption. For instance, 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:44.840 back for HSBC was caught laundering money on an international 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.840 scale for drug cartels. It was called a conspiracy theory, 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:52.040 and it was called a conspiracy theory because that helped 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.160 it become something easily dismissed. You know what I mean, 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.400 Like I understand you absolutely, So this is interesting. Our 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:02.480 mission with this show is to is to dive into 0:17:02.720 --> 0:17:05.119 those things on the edge of the map and and 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.320 to honestly ask those questions and look at the facts, 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.760 and then look at what people say they believe. Because 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:17.080 the weirdest thing about this is often when people believe 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:23.800 in something conspiratorial, if presented with facts that would disprove 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:26.720 some or part of that belief system, it goes down 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.359 to your bedside manner. Nobody ever changed somebody else's mind 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:34.280 by yelling at them or condescending to them. We change 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:38.640 people's minds by socratic method, by asking questions, by being 0:17:38.680 --> 0:17:41.520 part of the conversation. To your question directly, which I 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:44.080 think is an excellent question, how do we how do 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.280 we do this show for as long as we've done 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:52.600 without falling into a rabbit hole of credulity. It's true, 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.760 you know, people can often end up drinking a bit 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.560 of the cool aid to use the crafts figure of speech. 0:17:59.119 --> 0:18:03.119 We don't what I have found. We have found real conspiracies. 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:07.000 It's true, they're out there, but those real conspiracies typically 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:11.920 are groups of people who feel that they deserve more 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:15.520 power or money or influence, and then use the power, money, 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:18.639 or influence that they have to pursue more of the same. 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.880 The big question you have to always ask yourself when 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:24.199 you when you hear this kind of stuff, what is 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:27.280 the motivation? Who are the thing and stuff? They don't 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:31.320 want you to know. If someone for some reason decided 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.199 to fake the moon landing, why would they do it? 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.040 Why would why would so many people do that? What's 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:39.520 the point? You know what I mean? And that's when 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:43.920 a lot of conspiracy theories tend to break down, because 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:49.800 finding a genuine, powerful motive along with genuine powerful means 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:54.600 that happens much less often than people think. You know, Oh, 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:57.320 what's that old line I think it was in Sherlock 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:01.840 Holmes or something about how every every disguise is ultimately 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:06.080 an autobiography of the person wearing the disguise, And a 0:19:06.119 --> 0:19:10.880 lot of times when people are strongly invested in a particular, 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:15.760 easily disprovable conspiracy, theory for lack of a better term, 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:20.280 They're associating it with their personal identity, and they will 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:24.639 feel personally attacked if you say, well, it's true, like 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.000 here's a war story for you man. One of the 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:28.840 weirdest ones, one of the ones I got the most 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:33.200 hate mail about ever, was the flat earth beliefs. I thought, 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:35.960 why would we even waste our time, in our listeners 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.320 time exploring this thing, and then our you know, or 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:41.600 democracy or team votes, and they say, okay, we'll do 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:44.240 it because for some reason now it's trending. And so 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:48.640 we did this and explained why people would believe this 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:52.720 or professed to believe it, and then outline several experiments 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:56.200 you can do at your own home to show yourself 0:19:56.359 --> 0:20:00.240 the nature of Earth, the heavens, and the solar system. 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.879 And then we've got this delusion of hate mail. People 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:05.480 made hit piece videos of me on YouTube, and there 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:08.919 are so many other real problems, escalating violence and stuff 0:20:08.960 --> 0:20:11.679 like that. But I responded every email. I didn't make 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.280 a response video, but every email I responded to. So 0:20:15.520 --> 0:20:18.080 to sum it up by way of long prologue, and 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:22.879 I apologize for that. It is tempting to believe the 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:26.280 first thing you read about a subject, right, but you're 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:29.440 not being fair to yourself and fair your listeners. Whether 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:33.879 it's the idea of you know, suppressed technology or something, 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:38.640 or whether it's just a study of which deciduous trees 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:42.200 are most prevalent in a given part of the world, 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:45.080 You've got to read multiple sources. You have to you 0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:48.240 have to confirm that. And once you start reading multiple sources, 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:53.080 that's when you see the things fall apart. Because human beings, 0:20:53.480 --> 0:20:56.880 every single one of us, we are brilliant, your hoarders 0:20:56.920 --> 0:21:00.919 of knowledge. We have tremendous potential and we want to learn, 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:05.600 and that means keeping a secret or conspiring. Right. That's 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:08.560 usually going to be very difficult because you are surrounded 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:12.040 by people who are terrible at keeping secrets, who love 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.640 sharing things with each other and love learning. Usually, if 0:21:15.680 --> 0:21:20.960 something if something is a genuine conspiracy, meaning that again 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:24.920 people in power worked together for some sort of goal 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:28.720 that they wanted out of the limelight, usually there is 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:31.760 some way to prove it. Usually there is someone who 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.720 wanted to share, someone who wanted to learn. It's just 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:36.879 it's very difficult to keep a secret. Like with the 0:21:36.960 --> 0:21:39.560 jfk assassination, I love that you bring up that example, 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:46.240 the JFK assassination national international tragedy. But because of not 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:51.160 even necessarily the circumstances of the assassination, but because of 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:55.320 the way the government had a difficult time being transparent 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:59.640 in the aftermath in the investigation. Because of that, conspiracy 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:03.560 theories thrived, and due to this day, easily half, maybe 0:22:03.600 --> 0:22:06.240 even a little more than half of the population believes 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:09.120 they don't know the whole truth about the JFK murder, 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:11.280 and a lot of that, again is just chalked up 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:14.240 to the lack of transparency. In the lack of transparency, 0:22:14.560 --> 0:22:19.040 speculation always thrives. And the problem with that is that 0:22:19.320 --> 0:22:23.080 once that transparency is granted, once people really can see 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:27.080 every single thing that happened, and when they've already constructed 0:22:27.160 --> 0:22:30.760 an internal narrative, and so they won't believe the truth 0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:34.440 even when they see it, because they appreciate the story 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:37.760 they have told themselves beforehand. Why are you going to 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:41.480 come in and interrupt my story with all these bothersome facts, 0:22:41.800 --> 0:22:43.520 you know what I mean? I think one thing that 0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:47.239 I get really perturbed about now is that all of 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:50.919 these Netflix specials, and I'm gonna point to cereal as well. 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:53.280 All of these things that are like trying to show 0:22:53.280 --> 0:22:56.360 why a murder or something didn't happen take away from 0:22:56.359 --> 0:22:58.880 the victim a lot of the times. So good example 0:22:58.920 --> 0:23:01.600 is that making a murderer. We have a podcast called 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:04.200 Rebutting the Murderer and Dan O'Donnell does it, and Dan 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:07.880 Dan was actually at every trial. He knows this family, 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.960 he knows everything about this case, and he just destroys 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:14.199 that Netflix series because the guys are super guilty. But 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:16.480