WEBVTT - Psychedelics May Help Solve Addiction 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:25.036 Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. The major 0:00:25.116 --> 0:00:30.036 focus is in leveraging them as therapeutics, in other words, 0:00:30.036 --> 0:00:35.596 to treat various disorders, mainly psychiatric disorders like various forms 0:00:35.596 --> 0:00:41.436 of addiction, like depression, like helping cancer and other serious 0:00:41.476 --> 0:00:46.236 illness patients. According to the National Institutes of Health, mental 0:00:46.236 --> 0:00:48.796 health disorders account for several of the top causes of 0:00:48.836 --> 0:00:52.876 disability across the United States. About six out of every 0:00:52.876 --> 0:00:55.356 one hundred people will have PTSD at some point in 0:00:55.396 --> 0:00:58.916 their lives. That's about fifteen million adults. During a given year. 0:00:59.956 --> 0:01:03.636 Over one quarter of all Americans over eighteen suffer from 0:01:03.676 --> 0:01:08.436 a diagnosable mental illness. The antidepressants we have now are 0:01:09.436 --> 0:01:12.636 somewhat safer than the ones going back to the nineteen fifties, 0:01:12.676 --> 0:01:16.236 but they work on the same basic mechanisms of taking 0:01:16.436 --> 0:01:19.876 a drug daily and at augmenting the amount of serotonin. 0:01:20.676 --> 0:01:24.516 Matthew Johnson is a professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences 0:01:24.676 --> 0:01:29.156 at Johns Hopkins University. With so many suffering, he thinks 0:01:29.196 --> 0:01:32.076 it's urgent to expand to tools we use for treatment. 0:01:32.636 --> 0:01:36.716 The potential approval of psychedelic drugs, this could happen in 0:01:36.756 --> 0:01:39.196 a few years, and I think this has the potential 0:01:39.676 --> 0:01:43.116 to really be a paradigm shift in mental health treatment. 0:01:43.636 --> 0:01:51.556 Psychedelics are reality altering drugs with names like molly, ecstasy, mescaline, LSD, psilocybin, 0:01:52.116 --> 0:01:56.156 and they're all classified as Schedule one drugs government defined 0:01:56.196 --> 0:01:59.036 as having no accepted medical use and a high potential 0:01:59.076 --> 0:02:02.756 for abuse. But Johnson's team is working to change that. 0:02:03.236 --> 0:02:06.876 A significant leap in understanding a human mind is possible 0:02:06.876 --> 0:02:10.356 with psychedelics, and we can use that to help solve addiction. 0:02:14.356 --> 0:02:17.756 You are a doctor, you're a scientist. Can you tell 0:02:17.796 --> 0:02:22.516 me about your first personal experience with psychedelics? Sure, well, 0:02:22.516 --> 0:02:29.436 I'll tell you something about that. Um, so you get 0:02:29.436 --> 0:02:33.036 a little bit of the politician's answer with this question. Yeah, 0:02:33.036 --> 0:02:36.236 it's a sensitive field because you know these are illegal drugs, 0:02:36.356 --> 0:02:38.636 and so you know a lot of people are curious 0:02:38.636 --> 0:02:42.636 if you've done psychedelics yourself. And the sensitivity in this 0:02:42.676 --> 0:02:45.516 area is if you had said, sure, I had some 0:02:45.596 --> 0:02:48.756 experiences back when I was younger, and you say something 0:02:48.796 --> 0:02:50.716 about that, and a whole lot of folks are out 0:02:50.756 --> 0:02:54.156 there will say, man, you're you're biased. We can't trust 0:02:54.236 --> 0:02:59.116 this guy. You're a promoter. Okay, Now let's let's explore 0:02:59.196 --> 0:03:02.196 the the the opposite. Let's say, you know, it's always 0:03:02.396 --> 0:03:05.076 been a subject of interest, but no, I've never taken them. 0:03:05.076 --> 0:03:07.596 I didn't want to do them for whatever reason. A 0:03:07.716 --> 0:03:11.276 whole other swath of folks would say, Oh my word, 0:03:11.676 --> 0:03:14.196 how dare you give these things to people I have 0:03:14.316 --> 0:03:17.476 no idea about the profound effects? They like, this is unethical. 0:03:17.556 --> 0:03:19.676 How dare you get into this? So it's kind of 0:03:19.916 --> 0:03:22.796 like a no win situation. But I will say I 0:03:22.836 --> 0:03:26.756 became fascinated with psychedelics when I was in my late 0:03:26.796 --> 0:03:32.836 teens early twenties, learning the cultural history of these compounds 0:03:32.156 --> 0:03:34.716 and in our society going back to the sixties, and 0:03:34.756 --> 0:03:38.756 then also the ancient you know, sacramental use by various 0:03:38.836 --> 0:03:42.476 indigenous peoples, but but also the academic history, the earlier 0:03:42.476 --> 0:03:45.516 era of research and from the fifties through the seventies. 0:03:45.956 --> 0:03:49.396 It's hard to find a more cross disciplinary topic that 0:03:49.556 --> 0:03:54.876 just you couldn't make up the crazy history behind psychedelics 0:03:54.876 --> 0:03:57.356 in our culture and all the twists and turns with it, 0:03:57.716 --> 0:03:59.916 and the profound effects they have on the mind, and 0:03:59.956 --> 0:04:02.276 the idea that some molecule does this in the brain, 0:04:02.396 --> 0:04:06.876 and just from chemistry to pharmacology to sociology, it's just 0:04:07.236 --> 0:04:10.836 it's always fascinated me. For listeners who don't know what 0:04:10.916 --> 0:04:13.796 psychedelics are, can you break down what is a psychedelic? 0:04:14.116 --> 0:04:18.036 A lot of folks will say a psychedelic properly only 0:04:18.076 --> 0:04:23.276 refers to compounds like LSD and psilocybin, which is in 0:04:23.356 --> 0:04:27.276 magic mushrooms, or mescaline, which is in peyote, or DMT, 0:04:27.516 --> 0:04:31.876 which is in ayahuasca. Those are all classic psychedelics, and 0:04:32.156 --> 0:04:35.916 they they're in the same pharmacological class, meaning they have 0:04:35.956 --> 0:04:40.716 their primary effects by activating one particular subtype of serotonin 0:04:40.756 --> 0:04:44.396 receptor serotonin. Two way. Now, you have other compounds that 0:04:44.476 --> 0:04:50.036 we also broadly call psychedelic, like MDMA or folks called molly, 0:04:50.156 --> 0:04:56.036 or ecstasy, ketamine or PCP. But broadly speaking, the thing 0:04:56.076 --> 0:04:59.956 that makes all of these compounds a psychedelic is that, 0:05:00.036 --> 0:05:04.116 compared to other drug classes, they have a profound effect 0:05:04.556 --> 0:05:07.756 on one sense of reality, including one sense of self. 0:05:08.396 --> 0:05:10.076 And so you know, you can have a drug like 0:05:10.116 --> 0:05:13.596 cocaine that has a powerful effect on the mind, but 0:05:14.236 --> 0:05:19.596 one's basic conception of reality is typically held intact and 0:05:19.756 --> 0:05:22.196 the same thing with all you go down the line, alcohol, 0:05:22.516 --> 0:05:27.756 the opioids, other sedatives, but psychedelics had this profound reality 0:05:27.836 --> 0:05:32.036 shifting aspect to them. As you were describing that, something 0:05:32.036 --> 0:05:33.756 that I've thought about is like, I've been going to 0:05:33.836 --> 0:05:38.316 church all my life, and I've had spiritual experiences at church, 0:05:38.716 --> 0:05:41.676 Like there's definitely feelings that I felt at church that 0:05:41.756 --> 0:05:45.556 have probably could be considered similar. But I think for 0:05:45.716 --> 0:05:48.476 most people who've tried psychedelics, it's hard to put those 0:05:48.476 --> 0:05:52.396 experiences into words. I think besides church, the only other 0:05:52.436 --> 0:05:55.076 time I hear people talk about having religious experiences is 0:05:55.116 --> 0:05:57.756 at sporting events, and they always describe it as they're 0:05:57.756 --> 0:06:03.516 having a religious experience. So are there some common effects 0:06:03.716 --> 0:06:07.556 or reactions that people you've worked with have reported feeling. 0:06:08.596 --> 0:06:11.556 People pressed it in different ways, But this overall sense 0:06:11.556 --> 0:06:14.756 of unity is part of this mystical experience, the dissolving 0:06:14.756 --> 0:06:17.076 of the sense of self and feeling that you're just 0:06:17.916 --> 0:06:21.716 one with the universe, the world, with God, whatever your 0:06:21.796 --> 0:06:25.796 vocabulary is. Other aspects of a mystical experience are having 0:06:25.916 --> 0:06:29.276 a sense of timelessness and spacelessness, like one has stepped 0:06:29.356 --> 0:06:31.876 beyond the balance of time and space, like you know 0:06:31.916 --> 0:06:35.196 being in the ever present, now, the past, and the future. 0:06:35.236 --> 0:06:38.076 Just our scene is just sort of illusions and it's 0:06:38.116 --> 0:06:41.316 all you know, it's all about right now. And then 0:06:41.356 --> 0:06:45.436 there's other aspects, such as a sense of paradoxicality, this 0:06:45.556 --> 0:06:48.596 idea that people are moving outside of this sort of 0:06:48.636 --> 0:06:52.756 linear way of thinking, that one could hold mutually exclusive 0:06:52.796 --> 0:06:56.036 ideas at the same time, the universe and world is 0:06:56.076 --> 0:07:00.756 completely full, but it is an ultimately all an emptiness 0:07:01.436 --> 0:07:06.036 at the same time. These types of counterintuitive concepts, people 0:07:06.196 --> 0:07:09.556 often say this is beyond words, and when they do 0:07:09.636 --> 0:07:12.076 a decent job trying to describe it, they'll say they 0:07:12.076 --> 0:07:14.996 haven't even scratched the surface. And oftentimes people get frustrated 0:07:15.036 --> 0:07:17.716 because as they start to describe it, they just they 0:07:17.756 --> 0:07:20.476 want to let you know, like whatever they're saying, it's 0:07:20.516 --> 0:07:23.596 just it's falling so short, it's almost embarrassing. Can you 0:07:23.636 --> 0:07:28.596 describe a session and how it works? Sure, First, they're screening, 0:07:28.676 --> 0:07:31.156 because we do know there's certain people that could be harmed, 0:07:32.116 --> 0:07:36.356 namely folks that have either a history or an identifiable 0:07:36.396 --> 0:07:41.396 predisposition for disorders like schizophrenia or the manic side of 0:07:41.436 --> 0:07:45.476 bipolar disorder. And so there's that screening and also people 0:07:45.476 --> 0:07:48.996 at more severe levels of heart disease because it can 0:07:49.076 --> 0:07:52.196 raise your blood pressure somewhat, for example. And then you 0:07:52.276 --> 0:07:54.676 prepare the person and this can be anywhere from four 0:07:54.716 --> 0:07:58.556 to eight hours across several sessions depending on the study, 0:07:58.556 --> 0:08:00.956 but something on the order of four to eight hours 0:08:00.996 --> 0:08:03.956 where you have this discussion with two people are with 0:08:04.116 --> 0:08:07.916 we often call them guides. They're sometimes depending on the 0:08:07.916 --> 0:08:12.156 city their therapists. A major point is to develop that rapport, 0:08:12.396 --> 0:08:17.036 that trusting relationship that ultimately you would want from any psychotherapist. 0:08:17.956 --> 0:08:21.116 It's all done better if you have that that trust 0:08:21.156 --> 0:08:25.556 for that person. Discussing the person's life, their childhood, there 0:08:26.636 --> 0:08:29.236 whatever they do, whether it's a career or a job, 0:08:29.356 --> 0:08:31.396 you know what's meaningful to them. And then what are 0:08:31.436 --> 0:08:35.116 the you know, what's their worldview, whether it's religious, whether 0:08:35.156 --> 0:08:38.556 it's spiritual but not religious, whether it's people that don't 0:08:38.996 --> 0:08:42.116 endorse any any of the above, but nonetheless everyone has 0:08:42.156 --> 0:08:45.396 some of that high level worldview if you think the 0:08:45.436 --> 0:08:50.396 world is just you know, sort of materialism, but nonetheless 0:08:50.396 --> 0:08:53.076 feel connected to your family and your loved ones, to 0:08:53.116 --> 0:08:56.116 feel part of something, your community. When you also prepare 0:08:56.156 --> 0:08:59.716 them for the drug experience, which is basically a laundry 0:08:59.716 --> 0:09:02.436 list of you could be crying, you could be laughing, 0:09:02.636 --> 0:09:05.396 you can be terrified. You do have to prepare people, 0:09:05.476 --> 0:09:08.396 especially for the dark side, for the so called bad trip, 0:09:08.676 --> 0:09:12.036 which in our setting we characterize as a challenging experience, 0:09:12.196 --> 0:09:14.516 because the bad part is really if you do something 0:09:14.516 --> 0:09:17.676 stupid that get yourself hurt. Here again, it might be 0:09:17.716 --> 0:09:20.556 really difficult, it might be terrifying, or it might be 0:09:20.836 --> 0:09:26.196 you know, sad. But oftentimes those experiences people will credit 0:09:26.236 --> 0:09:29.236 as powerful learning experiences, Like if they go through an 0:09:29.276 --> 0:09:32.516 experience where they feel that they're dying, which sometimes happens, 0:09:33.276 --> 0:09:35.636 you know, oftentimes people felt like they were able to 0:09:35.676 --> 0:09:38.556 go through that experience and let go and just trust, 0:09:38.676 --> 0:09:40.756 let go and be open into experience. It feel like 0:09:40.756 --> 0:09:42.996 they really learned something from that experience, like they ran 0:09:43.076 --> 0:09:46.516 the gauntlet, they faced their demons, and so again, the 0:09:46.556 --> 0:09:49.676 bad trip isn't necessarily bad if it's in a safe space. 0:09:50.596 --> 0:09:52.756 You know, it's it doesn't look like a hospital room. 0:09:52.756 --> 0:09:55.876 It looks like, you know, like a pash yoga studio. 0:09:55.956 --> 0:09:58.836 I mean, it looks like, you know, esthetically pleasing. We 0:09:58.876 --> 0:10:02.156 want people to feel comfortable, and there's a nice rug. 0:10:02.196 --> 0:10:05.196 There's artwork on the walls. You know. Any medical equipment 0:10:05.276 --> 0:10:08.156 is like tucked underneath, Like the end table has a 0:10:08.196 --> 0:10:11.036 blood pressure kind of tucked underneath it, Like we have 0:10:11.076 --> 0:10:13.756 to take blood pressure during the session, but we have 0:10:13.836 --> 0:10:16.396 them take the capsule. Most of our work has been 0:10:16.436 --> 0:10:19.796 with psilocybin. We have some white discussion until the effects 0:10:19.876 --> 0:10:22.156 kick in. How long does it take for the effects 0:10:22.156 --> 0:10:25.556 to kick in? Anywhere from fifteen minutes to an hour. 0:10:25.716 --> 0:10:29.556 Typically around a half hour is about the average. Why 0:10:29.636 --> 0:10:33.556 so much of psychedelic research focused on mental health and addiction, 0:10:34.156 --> 0:10:38.836 specifically on treating those conditions, especially when we see that 0:10:38.916 --> 0:10:43.836 a lot of people that are using psychedelics recreationally aren't 0:10:43.876 --> 0:10:48.876 necessarily thinking about mental health and addiction in those cases, 0:10:48.956 --> 0:10:52.476 if you know what I mean, absolutely, Why why so 0:10:52.556 --> 0:10:56.716 much focused on this particular area. We're now seeing people 0:10:57.316 --> 0:11:02.996 living less long than their parents and grandparents. Why The 0:11:03.156 --> 0:11:06.916 data show it's because of substance problems. People are drinking 0:11:06.956 --> 0:11:10.756 themselves to death and taking drugs to death, including by 0:11:10.756 --> 0:11:12.556 the way, smoking, which is the biggie out of ball 0:11:12.596 --> 0:11:14.556 and that kills more than all the other drugs combined. 0:11:15.036 --> 0:11:20.116 But it's essentially addiction and it's suicide, you know, obviously 0:11:20.236 --> 0:11:23.916 depression being the major contributor to that. So these are 0:11:23.956 --> 0:11:27.436 all mental health issues and it's like the need is 0:11:27.476 --> 0:11:32.196 so great. So the antidepressants we have now are somewhat 0:11:32.236 --> 0:11:35.036 safer than the ones going back to the nineteen fifties, 0:11:35.036 --> 0:11:38.596 but they work on the same basic mechanisms of taking 0:11:38.636 --> 0:11:42.236 a drug daily and at augmenting the amount of serotonin. 0:11:42.836 --> 0:11:44.756 And that's an important thing to have. A lot of 0:11:44.756 --> 0:11:47.956 people's lives have been saved because of the the availability of 0:11:47.956 --> 0:11:51.796 those medications. So I'm all about having more tools in 0:11:51.836 --> 0:11:55.596 the toolbox rather than a fewer. So, you know, developing 0:11:55.636 --> 0:12:00.236 psychedelics is in a replacement for other therapeutics. Necessarily, we 0:12:00.276 --> 0:12:02.756 need a lot of help and mental health. You know, 0:12:02.876 --> 0:12:06.196 folks are suffering. We're really at our wits end in 0:12:06.316 --> 0:12:09.636 terms of mental health treatment. These various addiction are just 0:12:10.236 --> 0:12:14.796 really intractable. We need to innovate to to solve well, 0:12:14.796 --> 0:12:16.356 So let me ask I think, I mean, I got 0:12:16.396 --> 0:12:18.236 a good idea of what the sessions like, but can 0:12:18.236 --> 0:12:19.996 you talk a little bit more and then you briefly 0:12:19.996 --> 0:12:22.716 touch a little bit on after um, talk to me 0:12:22.756 --> 0:12:25.556 a little bit about how this contributes to your research. Yeah, 0:12:25.556 --> 0:12:29.436 so after we you know, clinically, you know, to make 0:12:29.436 --> 0:12:32.596 sure that to maximize the therapeutic benefit, we discussed the 0:12:32.636 --> 0:12:34.716 experience with the person's day after, we have them write 0:12:35.156 --> 0:12:38.316 something about it, like a few bullet points, you know, 0:12:38.396 --> 0:12:40.556 on a paper, or it can be like twenty pages 0:12:40.596 --> 0:12:43.596 and we get everything in between, but write something about 0:12:43.636 --> 0:12:45.836 it and and and just to bring in the next 0:12:45.876 --> 0:12:48.156 day and kind of well read it together as a 0:12:48.196 --> 0:12:50.596 point of discussion. These are ways of just kind of 0:12:51.076 --> 0:12:53.756 again processing, it's the word I use. It's a way 0:12:53.796 --> 0:12:57.996 to psychologically deal with and explore what the session was like. 0:12:58.036 --> 0:13:00.276 And there's no easy answers in terms of what what 0:13:00.676 --> 0:13:03.516 it's means for them. It's not like dream analysis or 0:13:03.516 --> 0:13:06.476 something like, oh, well, this was your experience. And hopefully 0:13:06.516 --> 0:13:10.516 people have meaningful experiences where they have insights, where they 0:13:10.516 --> 0:13:13.396 feel empowered to change things in their life that need 0:13:13.436 --> 0:13:15.916 to be changed. We've done a lot of work helping 0:13:15.916 --> 0:13:20.036 people quit tobacco smoking. Well not only ask them about that, 0:13:20.076 --> 0:13:22.596 have you been smoking how much if so, but we'll 0:13:22.596 --> 0:13:26.156 also have them blow through a machine basically a breathalyzer 0:13:26.196 --> 0:13:28.596 for cigarette smoking to tell us what we'll get a 0:13:28.756 --> 0:13:31.876 urine sample to see whether they've that picks up on 0:13:31.916 --> 0:13:34.316 a metabolite of nicotine. That also tells us whether they've 0:13:34.356 --> 0:13:36.596 been smoking. So we can have these data for the 0:13:36.596 --> 0:13:40.156 scientific literature, so we can write up papers and say, hey, 0:13:40.196 --> 0:13:41.996 whether it's working or not. And one of the reasons 0:13:42.076 --> 0:13:45.156 I was attracted to smoking is because, as fascinated as 0:13:45.156 --> 0:13:48.556 I am about people describing extraordinary experiences that are meaningful 0:13:48.716 --> 0:13:50.916 to them. Hey, if we really want to talk about 0:13:50.916 --> 0:13:54.596 helping people, ultimately, I like to see behavior change. So 0:13:54.716 --> 0:13:57.676 let's and biological evidence of it. Like here the data 0:13:57.796 --> 0:14:00.956 this person hasn't been smoking, and so you know that's 0:14:00.996 --> 0:14:05.436 evidence that they've they've really done something. Where do you 0:14:05.476 --> 0:14:09.796 think that this actually goes in the long game. The 0:14:09.876 --> 0:14:15.236 major focus is in leveraging them as therapeutics, in other words, 0:14:15.236 --> 0:14:20.796 to treat various disorders, mainly psychiatric disorders, like various forms 0:14:20.836 --> 0:14:26.636 of addiction, like depression, like helping cancer and other serious 0:14:26.676 --> 0:14:32.076 illness patients face death, people who are really debilitated by 0:14:33.476 --> 0:14:36.836 a cancer diagnosis. That's the major focus. But I think 0:14:37.796 --> 0:14:42.476 I see the power of these psychedelics as as much 0:14:42.516 --> 0:14:47.436 broader than that. They really are powerful tools to understanding 0:14:47.996 --> 0:14:51.596 human experience, to understanding the mind, to understanding human behavior, 0:14:52.236 --> 0:14:55.316 and just the leveraging of those to treat disorders is 0:14:55.396 --> 0:15:09.556 just a sub a very important subcomponent of that. What's 0:15:09.596 --> 0:15:11.756 the ultimate goal? Like when when do you know that 0:15:11.796 --> 0:15:15.996 you've been successful in therapeutic sessions and endo therapeutic benefits 0:15:16.036 --> 0:15:19.276 to folks, Like at some point somebody has still has 0:15:19.316 --> 0:15:24.316 to say yes to using psychedelics in this manner, right right, 0:15:24.316 --> 0:15:26.956 So for the therapeutic use of these compounds, that's very 0:15:26.996 --> 0:15:30.916 well defined. That's FDA approval for therapeutic use. So all 0:15:30.916 --> 0:15:34.316 of the research going on right now has been research 0:15:34.476 --> 0:15:37.316 that's been FDA approved. In other words, FDA has approved 0:15:37.396 --> 0:15:40.316 us to yes, you can do these studies. But at 0:15:40.396 --> 0:15:45.156 some point the FDA will say yes or no, you 0:15:45.196 --> 0:15:49.516 can give these to patients and straight up medical practice. 0:15:50.156 --> 0:15:53.196 And so we call that it has to pass phase 0:15:53.276 --> 0:15:57.436 three trials. That's the lingo research using MDIAMA to treat 0:15:57.476 --> 0:16:01.276 PTSD is in that phase three process. There's been one 0:16:01.436 --> 0:16:03.996 very successful looking phase three trial. They need to run 0:16:04.036 --> 0:16:06.756 one more, and so we may be about two years 0:16:06.756 --> 0:16:09.516 away if depending on the data from that second trial, 0:16:10.396 --> 0:16:12.996 and I bet it is going to look good, because 0:16:13.036 --> 0:16:15.596 the first trial looked very good. We may be two 0:16:15.636 --> 0:16:19.516 years away from MDMA being approved for the treatment of PTSD. 0:16:20.076 --> 0:16:24.156 For psilocybin, there's two entities in terms of the treatment 0:16:24.156 --> 0:16:27.876 of depression. There's two entities that are in Phase two 0:16:27.996 --> 0:16:31.796 B trials, so this is just before phase three. If 0:16:31.836 --> 0:16:35.716 those trials are successful, we may be somewhere on the 0:16:35.836 --> 0:16:39.636 order of three to four years away from psilocybin being 0:16:39.636 --> 0:16:42.836 approved for the treatment of depression, and the work with 0:16:42.876 --> 0:16:45.916 addiction is probably very close to that. We may be three, 0:16:46.036 --> 0:16:48.876 four or five years away again, all depending on the 0:16:48.996 --> 0:16:52.316 data in those phase three trials of psilocybin being approved 0:16:52.316 --> 0:16:56.836 for tobacco addiction and alcohol addiction. That has to be 0:16:56.836 --> 0:16:59.796 pretty exciting to have done some research that is actually 0:17:00.036 --> 0:17:04.356 shifting the actual classification of drugs that for decades were 0:17:04.476 --> 0:17:10.196 considered to be illegal, harmful, and you know, completely scified differently. 0:17:10.556 --> 0:17:12.276 How do you feel Is that exciting for you? I 0:17:13.316 --> 0:17:16.276 really love this area that I'm working in because I 0:17:16.316 --> 0:17:18.916 feel like there's the opportunity to have an impact at 0:17:18.956 --> 0:17:22.676 this time. I mean, so much of science necessarily as incremental. 0:17:23.356 --> 0:17:26.076 Your work might add to something that adds to the 0:17:26.076 --> 0:17:28.316 work of others, and you know, a generation or two 0:17:28.396 --> 0:17:31.556 or three down the road, the big shift happens. But 0:17:31.676 --> 0:17:36.036 I really think that with the potential approval of psychedelic drugs, 0:17:36.116 --> 0:17:40.516 which I've helped contribute towards, that this could happen in 0:17:40.556 --> 0:17:42.996 a few years. And I think this has the potential 0:17:43.476 --> 0:17:46.876 to really be a paradigm shift in mental health treatment. 0:17:47.156 --> 0:17:49.876 I think it's a fundamentally different way. It's really getting 0:17:49.916 --> 0:17:53.756 more at the roots of mental illness than it is 0:17:53.796 --> 0:17:56.836 just treating symptoms. And so it's just I feel lucky 0:17:56.916 --> 0:18:00.196 and so excited and happy to be involved with work 0:18:00.276 --> 0:18:03.356 that can actually have that type of real world impact 0:18:03.436 --> 0:18:11.316 in my lifetime. Can you talk a little bit about 0:18:11.436 --> 0:18:16.556 some of the actual risks that using psychedelics, whether therapeutically 0:18:16.716 --> 0:18:20.156 or recreationally, can cost to a person. Right, we know 0:18:20.196 --> 0:18:24.436 a lot about the risks. Certain people have a susceptibility 0:18:24.476 --> 0:18:28.836 to disorders like schizophrenia. Those people can be destabilized the 0:18:28.876 --> 0:18:31.956 same way a traumatic life event can destabilize those people 0:18:31.996 --> 0:18:35.436 and either trigger or make their symptoms worse. There's also 0:18:35.476 --> 0:18:38.356 for anyone taking these drugs that are high enough, those 0:18:38.356 --> 0:18:42.996 there's the so called bad trip, which in a recreational 0:18:43.196 --> 0:18:47.236 or an unsafe environment. It's pretty rare, admittedly, but sometimes 0:18:47.276 --> 0:18:49.636 it leads to people getting harmed. I mean, it's kind 0:18:49.636 --> 0:18:51.556 of like not wearing your seat belt. Most any one 0:18:51.596 --> 0:18:53.516 given day of not wearing your seat belt, you'll probably 0:18:53.516 --> 0:18:55.156 be fine. But if you step back and look at 0:18:55.156 --> 0:18:58.156 the big picture, yeah, it's pretty clear there's a definitely 0:18:58.236 --> 0:19:00.596 risk of not wearing a seat belt. So sometimes people 0:19:01.116 --> 0:19:03.396 do things that get themselves hurt. They wander into traffic, 0:19:03.436 --> 0:19:05.996 they freak out, they you know, they fall from a height, 0:19:06.036 --> 0:19:07.836 and sometimes, you know, a lot is made out of 0:19:07.876 --> 0:19:10.276 those that are pretty rare, they can happen. So there's 0:19:10.276 --> 0:19:14.076 are real risks people at severe heart disease. It can 0:19:14.116 --> 0:19:17.876 trigger a reaction because it psilocybin raises the blood pressure 0:19:17.876 --> 0:19:20.556 and certainly MDMA even more so raise the blood pressure 0:19:20.556 --> 0:19:23.916 and pulse. So that could be a problem for some people, 0:19:23.956 --> 0:19:28.076 even though psilocybin itself for most people is very safe 0:19:28.076 --> 0:19:31.716 at the physiological level. There's no known lethal overdose. So 0:19:31.756 --> 0:19:33.916 those are the major risks, but importantly, we have a 0:19:33.956 --> 0:19:37.636 way to address them all in research and clinical use, 0:19:38.076 --> 0:19:42.636 through screening, through preparation, and monitoring. Because of these risks, 0:19:42.636 --> 0:19:45.196 I certainly don't encourage anyone to use these on their own. 0:19:46.036 --> 0:19:48.756 If listeners want to learn more about psychedelic treatment or 0:19:48.756 --> 0:19:52.596 how they can support research into psychedelics, what can they do? 0:19:52.916 --> 0:19:56.476 They can find out more about our research at Hopkins 0:19:56.716 --> 0:20:01.636 Psychedelic dot org. If you're looking for psilocybin research, you 0:20:01.676 --> 0:20:04.676 can find our studies that are posted there. You can 0:20:04.716 --> 0:20:09.516 also search for studies on clinical trials dot gov really 0:20:09.516 --> 0:20:12.356 across the US and the world for other sites that 0:20:12.396 --> 0:20:16.276 are conducting research with psychedelics. If you want to learn 0:20:16.316 --> 0:20:18.996 about some of the work that with MDMA that I mentioned, 0:20:19.036 --> 0:20:22.436 you can go to maps dot org. So yeah, hopefully 0:20:22.476 --> 0:20:28.356 that's helped the people. Doctor matt Johnson, this has been 0:20:28.396 --> 0:20:30.596 a great conversation. I thank you so much for being 0:20:30.596 --> 0:20:35.796 with us. Thank you, Ronald, I really enjoyed it. Matthew 0:20:35.836 --> 0:20:38.916 Johnson is a professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at 0:20:38.996 --> 0:20:42.316 Johns Hopkins University. Be sure to check out our show 0:20:42.316 --> 0:20:44.876 notes to find links to the resources Matthew mentioned in 0:20:44.876 --> 0:20:49.876 this episode. Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank, research by 0:20:50.036 --> 0:20:54.396 David Jah, booking by Lisa Dunn. Our managing producer is 0:20:54.436 --> 0:20:58.636 Sasha Matthias. And our executive producer is Mio LaBelle I'm 0:20:58.716 --> 0:21:01.076 Ronald Jung Jr. Thanks for listening.