1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:25,036 Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Ronald Young Jr. The major 2 00:00:25,116 --> 00:00:30,036 Speaker 1: focus is in leveraging them as therapeutics, in other words, 3 00:00:30,036 --> 00:00:35,596 Speaker 1: to treat various disorders, mainly psychiatric disorders like various forms 4 00:00:35,596 --> 00:00:41,436 Speaker 1: of addiction, like depression, like helping cancer and other serious 5 00:00:41,476 --> 00:00:46,236 Speaker 1: illness patients. According to the National Institutes of Health, mental 6 00:00:46,236 --> 00:00:48,796 Speaker 1: health disorders account for several of the top causes of 7 00:00:48,836 --> 00:00:52,876 Speaker 1: disability across the United States. About six out of every 8 00:00:52,876 --> 00:00:55,356 Speaker 1: one hundred people will have PTSD at some point in 9 00:00:55,396 --> 00:00:58,916 Speaker 1: their lives. That's about fifteen million adults. During a given year. 10 00:00:59,956 --> 00:01:03,636 Speaker 1: Over one quarter of all Americans over eighteen suffer from 11 00:01:03,676 --> 00:01:08,436 Speaker 1: a diagnosable mental illness. The antidepressants we have now are 12 00:01:09,436 --> 00:01:12,636 Speaker 1: somewhat safer than the ones going back to the nineteen fifties, 13 00:01:12,676 --> 00:01:16,236 Speaker 1: but they work on the same basic mechanisms of taking 14 00:01:16,436 --> 00:01:19,876 Speaker 1: a drug daily and at augmenting the amount of serotonin. 15 00:01:20,676 --> 00:01:24,516 Speaker 1: Matthew Johnson is a professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences 16 00:01:24,676 --> 00:01:29,156 Speaker 1: at Johns Hopkins University. With so many suffering, he thinks 17 00:01:29,196 --> 00:01:32,076 Speaker 1: it's urgent to expand to tools we use for treatment. 18 00:01:32,636 --> 00:01:36,716 Speaker 1: The potential approval of psychedelic drugs, this could happen in 19 00:01:36,756 --> 00:01:39,196 Speaker 1: a few years, and I think this has the potential 20 00:01:39,676 --> 00:01:43,116 Speaker 1: to really be a paradigm shift in mental health treatment. 21 00:01:43,636 --> 00:01:51,556 Speaker 1: Psychedelics are reality altering drugs with names like molly, ecstasy, mescaline, LSD, psilocybin, 22 00:01:52,116 --> 00:01:56,156 Speaker 1: and they're all classified as Schedule one drugs government defined 23 00:01:56,196 --> 00:01:59,036 Speaker 1: as having no accepted medical use and a high potential 24 00:01:59,076 --> 00:02:02,756 Speaker 1: for abuse. But Johnson's team is working to change that. 25 00:02:03,236 --> 00:02:06,876 Speaker 1: A significant leap in understanding a human mind is possible 26 00:02:06,876 --> 00:02:10,356 Speaker 1: with psychedelics, and we can use that to help solve addiction. 27 00:02:14,356 --> 00:02:17,756 Speaker 1: You are a doctor, you're a scientist. Can you tell 28 00:02:17,796 --> 00:02:22,516 Speaker 1: me about your first personal experience with psychedelics? Sure, well, 29 00:02:22,516 --> 00:02:29,436 Speaker 1: I'll tell you something about that. Um, so you get 30 00:02:29,436 --> 00:02:33,036 Speaker 1: a little bit of the politician's answer with this question. Yeah, 31 00:02:33,036 --> 00:02:36,236 Speaker 1: it's a sensitive field because you know these are illegal drugs, 32 00:02:36,356 --> 00:02:38,636 Speaker 1: and so you know a lot of people are curious 33 00:02:38,636 --> 00:02:42,636 Speaker 1: if you've done psychedelics yourself. And the sensitivity in this 34 00:02:42,676 --> 00:02:45,516 Speaker 1: area is if you had said, sure, I had some 35 00:02:45,596 --> 00:02:48,756 Speaker 1: experiences back when I was younger, and you say something 36 00:02:48,796 --> 00:02:50,716 Speaker 1: about that, and a whole lot of folks are out 37 00:02:50,756 --> 00:02:54,156 Speaker 1: there will say, man, you're you're biased. We can't trust 38 00:02:54,236 --> 00:02:59,116 Speaker 1: this guy. You're a promoter. Okay, Now let's let's explore 39 00:02:59,196 --> 00:03:02,196 Speaker 1: the the the opposite. Let's say, you know, it's always 40 00:03:02,396 --> 00:03:05,076 Speaker 1: been a subject of interest, but no, I've never taken them. 41 00:03:05,076 --> 00:03:07,596 Speaker 1: I didn't want to do them for whatever reason. A 42 00:03:07,716 --> 00:03:11,276 Speaker 1: whole other swath of folks would say, Oh my word, 43 00:03:11,676 --> 00:03:14,196 Speaker 1: how dare you give these things to people I have 44 00:03:14,316 --> 00:03:17,476 Speaker 1: no idea about the profound effects? They like, this is unethical. 45 00:03:17,556 --> 00:03:19,676 Speaker 1: How dare you get into this? So it's kind of 46 00:03:19,916 --> 00:03:22,796 Speaker 1: like a no win situation. But I will say I 47 00:03:22,836 --> 00:03:26,756 Speaker 1: became fascinated with psychedelics when I was in my late 48 00:03:26,796 --> 00:03:32,836 Speaker 1: teens early twenties, learning the cultural history of these compounds 49 00:03:32,156 --> 00:03:34,716 Speaker 1: and in our society going back to the sixties, and 50 00:03:34,756 --> 00:03:38,756 Speaker 1: then also the ancient you know, sacramental use by various 51 00:03:38,836 --> 00:03:42,476 Speaker 1: indigenous peoples, but but also the academic history, the earlier 52 00:03:42,476 --> 00:03:45,516 Speaker 1: era of research and from the fifties through the seventies. 53 00:03:45,956 --> 00:03:49,396 Speaker 1: It's hard to find a more cross disciplinary topic that 54 00:03:49,556 --> 00:03:54,876 Speaker 1: just you couldn't make up the crazy history behind psychedelics 55 00:03:54,876 --> 00:03:57,356 Speaker 1: in our culture and all the twists and turns with it, 56 00:03:57,716 --> 00:03:59,916 Speaker 1: and the profound effects they have on the mind, and 57 00:03:59,956 --> 00:04:02,276 Speaker 1: the idea that some molecule does this in the brain, 58 00:04:02,396 --> 00:04:06,876 Speaker 1: and just from chemistry to pharmacology to sociology, it's just 59 00:04:07,236 --> 00:04:10,836 Speaker 1: it's always fascinated me. For listeners who don't know what 60 00:04:10,916 --> 00:04:13,796 Speaker 1: psychedelics are, can you break down what is a psychedelic? 61 00:04:14,116 --> 00:04:18,036 Speaker 1: A lot of folks will say a psychedelic properly only 62 00:04:18,076 --> 00:04:23,276 Speaker 1: refers to compounds like LSD and psilocybin, which is in 63 00:04:23,356 --> 00:04:27,276 Speaker 1: magic mushrooms, or mescaline, which is in peyote, or DMT, 64 00:04:27,516 --> 00:04:31,876 Speaker 1: which is in ayahuasca. Those are all classic psychedelics, and 65 00:04:32,156 --> 00:04:35,916 Speaker 1: they they're in the same pharmacological class, meaning they have 66 00:04:35,956 --> 00:04:40,716 Speaker 1: their primary effects by activating one particular subtype of serotonin 67 00:04:40,756 --> 00:04:44,396 Speaker 1: receptor serotonin. Two way. Now, you have other compounds that 68 00:04:44,476 --> 00:04:50,036 Speaker 1: we also broadly call psychedelic, like MDMA or folks called molly, 69 00:04:50,156 --> 00:04:56,036 Speaker 1: or ecstasy, ketamine or PCP. But broadly speaking, the thing 70 00:04:56,076 --> 00:04:59,956 Speaker 1: that makes all of these compounds a psychedelic is that, 71 00:05:00,036 --> 00:05:04,116 Speaker 1: compared to other drug classes, they have a profound effect 72 00:05:04,556 --> 00:05:07,756 Speaker 1: on one sense of reality, including one sense of self. 73 00:05:08,396 --> 00:05:10,076 Speaker 1: And so you know, you can have a drug like 74 00:05:10,116 --> 00:05:13,596 Speaker 1: cocaine that has a powerful effect on the mind, but 75 00:05:14,236 --> 00:05:19,596 Speaker 1: one's basic conception of reality is typically held intact and 76 00:05:19,756 --> 00:05:22,196 Speaker 1: the same thing with all you go down the line, alcohol, 77 00:05:22,516 --> 00:05:27,756 Speaker 1: the opioids, other sedatives, but psychedelics had this profound reality 78 00:05:27,836 --> 00:05:32,036 Speaker 1: shifting aspect to them. As you were describing that, something 79 00:05:32,036 --> 00:05:33,756 Speaker 1: that I've thought about is like, I've been going to 80 00:05:33,836 --> 00:05:38,316 Speaker 1: church all my life, and I've had spiritual experiences at church, 81 00:05:38,716 --> 00:05:41,676 Speaker 1: Like there's definitely feelings that I felt at church that 82 00:05:41,756 --> 00:05:45,556 Speaker 1: have probably could be considered similar. But I think for 83 00:05:45,716 --> 00:05:48,476 Speaker 1: most people who've tried psychedelics, it's hard to put those 84 00:05:48,476 --> 00:05:52,396 Speaker 1: experiences into words. I think besides church, the only other 85 00:05:52,436 --> 00:05:55,076 Speaker 1: time I hear people talk about having religious experiences is 86 00:05:55,116 --> 00:05:57,756 Speaker 1: at sporting events, and they always describe it as they're 87 00:05:57,756 --> 00:06:03,516 Speaker 1: having a religious experience. So are there some common effects 88 00:06:03,716 --> 00:06:07,556 Speaker 1: or reactions that people you've worked with have reported feeling. 89 00:06:08,596 --> 00:06:11,556 Speaker 1: People pressed it in different ways, But this overall sense 90 00:06:11,556 --> 00:06:14,756 Speaker 1: of unity is part of this mystical experience, the dissolving 91 00:06:14,756 --> 00:06:17,076 Speaker 1: of the sense of self and feeling that you're just 92 00:06:17,916 --> 00:06:21,716 Speaker 1: one with the universe, the world, with God, whatever your 93 00:06:21,796 --> 00:06:25,796 Speaker 1: vocabulary is. Other aspects of a mystical experience are having 94 00:06:25,916 --> 00:06:29,276 Speaker 1: a sense of timelessness and spacelessness, like one has stepped 95 00:06:29,356 --> 00:06:31,876 Speaker 1: beyond the balance of time and space, like you know 96 00:06:31,916 --> 00:06:35,196 Speaker 1: being in the ever present, now, the past, and the future. 97 00:06:35,236 --> 00:06:38,076 Speaker 1: Just our scene is just sort of illusions and it's 98 00:06:38,116 --> 00:06:41,316 Speaker 1: all you know, it's all about right now. And then 99 00:06:41,356 --> 00:06:45,436 Speaker 1: there's other aspects, such as a sense of paradoxicality, this 100 00:06:45,556 --> 00:06:48,596 Speaker 1: idea that people are moving outside of this sort of 101 00:06:48,636 --> 00:06:52,756 Speaker 1: linear way of thinking, that one could hold mutually exclusive 102 00:06:52,796 --> 00:06:56,036 Speaker 1: ideas at the same time, the universe and world is 103 00:06:56,076 --> 00:07:00,756 Speaker 1: completely full, but it is an ultimately all an emptiness 104 00:07:01,436 --> 00:07:06,036 Speaker 1: at the same time. These types of counterintuitive concepts, people 105 00:07:06,196 --> 00:07:09,556 Speaker 1: often say this is beyond words, and when they do 106 00:07:09,636 --> 00:07:12,076 Speaker 1: a decent job trying to describe it, they'll say they 107 00:07:12,076 --> 00:07:14,996 Speaker 1: haven't even scratched the surface. And oftentimes people get frustrated 108 00:07:15,036 --> 00:07:17,716 Speaker 1: because as they start to describe it, they just they 109 00:07:17,756 --> 00:07:20,476 Speaker 1: want to let you know, like whatever they're saying, it's 110 00:07:20,516 --> 00:07:23,596 Speaker 1: just it's falling so short, it's almost embarrassing. Can you 111 00:07:23,636 --> 00:07:28,596 Speaker 1: describe a session and how it works? Sure, First, they're screening, 112 00:07:28,676 --> 00:07:31,156 Speaker 1: because we do know there's certain people that could be harmed, 113 00:07:32,116 --> 00:07:36,356 Speaker 1: namely folks that have either a history or an identifiable 114 00:07:36,396 --> 00:07:41,396 Speaker 1: predisposition for disorders like schizophrenia or the manic side of 115 00:07:41,436 --> 00:07:45,476 Speaker 1: bipolar disorder. And so there's that screening and also people 116 00:07:45,476 --> 00:07:48,996 Speaker 1: at more severe levels of heart disease because it can 117 00:07:49,076 --> 00:07:52,196 Speaker 1: raise your blood pressure somewhat, for example. And then you 118 00:07:52,276 --> 00:07:54,676 Speaker 1: prepare the person and this can be anywhere from four 119 00:07:54,716 --> 00:07:58,556 Speaker 1: to eight hours across several sessions depending on the study, 120 00:07:58,556 --> 00:08:00,956 Speaker 1: but something on the order of four to eight hours 121 00:08:00,996 --> 00:08:03,956 Speaker 1: where you have this discussion with two people are with 122 00:08:04,116 --> 00:08:07,916 Speaker 1: we often call them guides. They're sometimes depending on the 123 00:08:07,916 --> 00:08:12,156 Speaker 1: city their therapists. A major point is to develop that rapport, 124 00:08:12,396 --> 00:08:17,036 Speaker 1: that trusting relationship that ultimately you would want from any psychotherapist. 125 00:08:17,956 --> 00:08:21,116 Speaker 1: It's all done better if you have that that trust 126 00:08:21,156 --> 00:08:25,556 Speaker 1: for that person. Discussing the person's life, their childhood, there 127 00:08:26,636 --> 00:08:29,236 Speaker 1: whatever they do, whether it's a career or a job, 128 00:08:29,356 --> 00:08:31,396 Speaker 1: you know what's meaningful to them. And then what are 129 00:08:31,436 --> 00:08:35,116 Speaker 1: the you know, what's their worldview, whether it's religious, whether 130 00:08:35,156 --> 00:08:38,556 Speaker 1: it's spiritual but not religious, whether it's people that don't 131 00:08:38,996 --> 00:08:42,116 Speaker 1: endorse any any of the above, but nonetheless everyone has 132 00:08:42,156 --> 00:08:45,396 Speaker 1: some of that high level worldview if you think the 133 00:08:45,436 --> 00:08:50,396 Speaker 1: world is just you know, sort of materialism, but nonetheless 134 00:08:50,396 --> 00:08:53,076 Speaker 1: feel connected to your family and your loved ones, to 135 00:08:53,116 --> 00:08:56,116 Speaker 1: feel part of something, your community. When you also prepare 136 00:08:56,156 --> 00:08:59,716 Speaker 1: them for the drug experience, which is basically a laundry 137 00:08:59,716 --> 00:09:02,436 Speaker 1: list of you could be crying, you could be laughing, 138 00:09:02,636 --> 00:09:05,396 Speaker 1: you can be terrified. You do have to prepare people, 139 00:09:05,476 --> 00:09:08,396 Speaker 1: especially for the dark side, for the so called bad trip, 140 00:09:08,676 --> 00:09:12,036 Speaker 1: which in our setting we characterize as a challenging experience, 141 00:09:12,196 --> 00:09:14,516 Speaker 1: because the bad part is really if you do something 142 00:09:14,516 --> 00:09:17,676 Speaker 1: stupid that get yourself hurt. Here again, it might be 143 00:09:17,716 --> 00:09:20,556 Speaker 1: really difficult, it might be terrifying, or it might be 144 00:09:20,836 --> 00:09:26,196 Speaker 1: you know, sad. But oftentimes those experiences people will credit 145 00:09:26,236 --> 00:09:29,236 Speaker 1: as powerful learning experiences, Like if they go through an 146 00:09:29,276 --> 00:09:32,516 Speaker 1: experience where they feel that they're dying, which sometimes happens, 147 00:09:33,276 --> 00:09:35,636 Speaker 1: you know, oftentimes people felt like they were able to 148 00:09:35,676 --> 00:09:38,556 Speaker 1: go through that experience and let go and just trust, 149 00:09:38,676 --> 00:09:40,756 Speaker 1: let go and be open into experience. It feel like 150 00:09:40,756 --> 00:09:42,996 Speaker 1: they really learned something from that experience, like they ran 151 00:09:43,076 --> 00:09:46,516 Speaker 1: the gauntlet, they faced their demons, and so again, the 152 00:09:46,556 --> 00:09:49,676 Speaker 1: bad trip isn't necessarily bad if it's in a safe space. 153 00:09:50,596 --> 00:09:52,756 Speaker 1: You know, it's it doesn't look like a hospital room. 154 00:09:52,756 --> 00:09:55,876 Speaker 1: It looks like, you know, like a pash yoga studio. 155 00:09:55,956 --> 00:09:58,836 Speaker 1: I mean, it looks like, you know, esthetically pleasing. We 156 00:09:58,876 --> 00:10:02,156 Speaker 1: want people to feel comfortable, and there's a nice rug. 157 00:10:02,196 --> 00:10:05,196 Speaker 1: There's artwork on the walls. You know. Any medical equipment 158 00:10:05,276 --> 00:10:08,156 Speaker 1: is like tucked underneath, Like the end table has a 159 00:10:08,196 --> 00:10:11,036 Speaker 1: blood pressure kind of tucked underneath it, Like we have 160 00:10:11,076 --> 00:10:13,756 Speaker 1: to take blood pressure during the session, but we have 161 00:10:13,836 --> 00:10:16,396 Speaker 1: them take the capsule. Most of our work has been 162 00:10:16,436 --> 00:10:19,796 Speaker 1: with psilocybin. We have some white discussion until the effects 163 00:10:19,876 --> 00:10:22,156 Speaker 1: kick in. How long does it take for the effects 164 00:10:22,156 --> 00:10:25,556 Speaker 1: to kick in? Anywhere from fifteen minutes to an hour. 165 00:10:25,716 --> 00:10:29,556 Speaker 1: Typically around a half hour is about the average. Why 166 00:10:29,636 --> 00:10:33,556 Speaker 1: so much of psychedelic research focused on mental health and addiction, 167 00:10:34,156 --> 00:10:38,836 Speaker 1: specifically on treating those conditions, especially when we see that 168 00:10:38,916 --> 00:10:43,836 Speaker 1: a lot of people that are using psychedelics recreationally aren't 169 00:10:43,876 --> 00:10:48,876 Speaker 1: necessarily thinking about mental health and addiction in those cases, 170 00:10:48,956 --> 00:10:52,476 Speaker 1: if you know what I mean, absolutely, Why why so 171 00:10:52,556 --> 00:10:56,716 Speaker 1: much focused on this particular area. We're now seeing people 172 00:10:57,316 --> 00:11:02,996 Speaker 1: living less long than their parents and grandparents. Why The 173 00:11:03,156 --> 00:11:06,916 Speaker 1: data show it's because of substance problems. People are drinking 174 00:11:06,956 --> 00:11:10,756 Speaker 1: themselves to death and taking drugs to death, including by 175 00:11:10,756 --> 00:11:12,556 Speaker 1: the way, smoking, which is the biggie out of ball 176 00:11:12,596 --> 00:11:14,556 Speaker 1: and that kills more than all the other drugs combined. 177 00:11:15,036 --> 00:11:20,116 Speaker 1: But it's essentially addiction and it's suicide, you know, obviously 178 00:11:20,236 --> 00:11:23,916 Speaker 1: depression being the major contributor to that. So these are 179 00:11:23,956 --> 00:11:27,436 Speaker 1: all mental health issues and it's like the need is 180 00:11:27,476 --> 00:11:32,196 Speaker 1: so great. So the antidepressants we have now are somewhat 181 00:11:32,236 --> 00:11:35,036 Speaker 1: safer than the ones going back to the nineteen fifties, 182 00:11:35,036 --> 00:11:38,596 Speaker 1: but they work on the same basic mechanisms of taking 183 00:11:38,636 --> 00:11:42,236 Speaker 1: a drug daily and at augmenting the amount of serotonin. 184 00:11:42,836 --> 00:11:44,756 Speaker 1: And that's an important thing to have. A lot of 185 00:11:44,756 --> 00:11:47,956 Speaker 1: people's lives have been saved because of the the availability of 186 00:11:47,956 --> 00:11:51,796 Speaker 1: those medications. So I'm all about having more tools in 187 00:11:51,836 --> 00:11:55,596 Speaker 1: the toolbox rather than a fewer. So, you know, developing 188 00:11:55,636 --> 00:12:00,236 Speaker 1: psychedelics is in a replacement for other therapeutics. Necessarily, we 189 00:12:00,276 --> 00:12:02,756 Speaker 1: need a lot of help and mental health. You know, 190 00:12:02,876 --> 00:12:06,196 Speaker 1: folks are suffering. We're really at our wits end in 191 00:12:06,316 --> 00:12:09,636 Speaker 1: terms of mental health treatment. These various addiction are just 192 00:12:10,236 --> 00:12:14,796 Speaker 1: really intractable. We need to innovate to to solve well, 193 00:12:14,796 --> 00:12:16,356 Speaker 1: So let me ask I think, I mean, I got 194 00:12:16,396 --> 00:12:18,236 Speaker 1: a good idea of what the sessions like, but can 195 00:12:18,236 --> 00:12:19,996 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit more and then you briefly 196 00:12:19,996 --> 00:12:22,716 Speaker 1: touch a little bit on after um, talk to me 197 00:12:22,756 --> 00:12:25,556 Speaker 1: a little bit about how this contributes to your research. Yeah, 198 00:12:25,556 --> 00:12:29,436 Speaker 1: so after we you know, clinically, you know, to make 199 00:12:29,436 --> 00:12:32,596 Speaker 1: sure that to maximize the therapeutic benefit, we discussed the 200 00:12:32,636 --> 00:12:34,716 Speaker 1: experience with the person's day after, we have them write 201 00:12:35,156 --> 00:12:38,316 Speaker 1: something about it, like a few bullet points, you know, 202 00:12:38,396 --> 00:12:40,556 Speaker 1: on a paper, or it can be like twenty pages 203 00:12:40,596 --> 00:12:43,596 Speaker 1: and we get everything in between, but write something about 204 00:12:43,636 --> 00:12:45,836 Speaker 1: it and and and just to bring in the next 205 00:12:45,876 --> 00:12:48,156 Speaker 1: day and kind of well read it together as a 206 00:12:48,196 --> 00:12:50,596 Speaker 1: point of discussion. These are ways of just kind of 207 00:12:51,076 --> 00:12:53,756 Speaker 1: again processing, it's the word I use. It's a way 208 00:12:53,796 --> 00:12:57,996 Speaker 1: to psychologically deal with and explore what the session was like. 209 00:12:58,036 --> 00:13:00,276 Speaker 1: And there's no easy answers in terms of what what 210 00:13:00,676 --> 00:13:03,516 Speaker 1: it's means for them. It's not like dream analysis or 211 00:13:03,516 --> 00:13:06,476 Speaker 1: something like, oh, well, this was your experience. And hopefully 212 00:13:06,516 --> 00:13:10,516 Speaker 1: people have meaningful experiences where they have insights, where they 213 00:13:10,516 --> 00:13:13,396 Speaker 1: feel empowered to change things in their life that need 214 00:13:13,436 --> 00:13:15,916 Speaker 1: to be changed. We've done a lot of work helping 215 00:13:15,916 --> 00:13:20,036 Speaker 1: people quit tobacco smoking. Well not only ask them about that, 216 00:13:20,076 --> 00:13:22,596 Speaker 1: have you been smoking how much if so, but we'll 217 00:13:22,596 --> 00:13:26,156 Speaker 1: also have them blow through a machine basically a breathalyzer 218 00:13:26,196 --> 00:13:28,596 Speaker 1: for cigarette smoking to tell us what we'll get a 219 00:13:28,756 --> 00:13:31,876 Speaker 1: urine sample to see whether they've that picks up on 220 00:13:31,916 --> 00:13:34,316 Speaker 1: a metabolite of nicotine. That also tells us whether they've 221 00:13:34,356 --> 00:13:36,596 Speaker 1: been smoking. So we can have these data for the 222 00:13:36,596 --> 00:13:40,156 Speaker 1: scientific literature, so we can write up papers and say, hey, 223 00:13:40,196 --> 00:13:41,996 Speaker 1: whether it's working or not. And one of the reasons 224 00:13:42,076 --> 00:13:45,156 Speaker 1: I was attracted to smoking is because, as fascinated as 225 00:13:45,156 --> 00:13:48,556 Speaker 1: I am about people describing extraordinary experiences that are meaningful 226 00:13:48,716 --> 00:13:50,916 Speaker 1: to them. Hey, if we really want to talk about 227 00:13:50,916 --> 00:13:54,596 Speaker 1: helping people, ultimately, I like to see behavior change. So 228 00:13:54,716 --> 00:13:57,676 Speaker 1: let's and biological evidence of it. Like here the data 229 00:13:57,796 --> 00:14:00,956 Speaker 1: this person hasn't been smoking, and so you know that's 230 00:14:00,996 --> 00:14:05,436 Speaker 1: evidence that they've they've really done something. Where do you 231 00:14:05,476 --> 00:14:09,796 Speaker 1: think that this actually goes in the long game. The 232 00:14:09,876 --> 00:14:15,236 Speaker 1: major focus is in leveraging them as therapeutics, in other words, 233 00:14:15,236 --> 00:14:20,796 Speaker 1: to treat various disorders, mainly psychiatric disorders, like various forms 234 00:14:20,836 --> 00:14:26,636 Speaker 1: of addiction, like depression, like helping cancer and other serious 235 00:14:26,676 --> 00:14:32,076 Speaker 1: illness patients face death, people who are really debilitated by 236 00:14:33,476 --> 00:14:36,836 Speaker 1: a cancer diagnosis. That's the major focus. But I think 237 00:14:37,796 --> 00:14:42,476 Speaker 1: I see the power of these psychedelics as as much 238 00:14:42,516 --> 00:14:47,436 Speaker 1: broader than that. They really are powerful tools to understanding 239 00:14:47,996 --> 00:14:51,596 Speaker 1: human experience, to understanding the mind, to understanding human behavior, 240 00:14:52,236 --> 00:14:55,316 Speaker 1: and just the leveraging of those to treat disorders is 241 00:14:55,396 --> 00:15:09,556 Speaker 1: just a sub a very important subcomponent of that. What's 242 00:15:09,596 --> 00:15:11,756 Speaker 1: the ultimate goal? Like when when do you know that 243 00:15:11,796 --> 00:15:15,996 Speaker 1: you've been successful in therapeutic sessions and endo therapeutic benefits 244 00:15:16,036 --> 00:15:19,276 Speaker 1: to folks, Like at some point somebody has still has 245 00:15:19,316 --> 00:15:24,316 Speaker 1: to say yes to using psychedelics in this manner, right right, 246 00:15:24,316 --> 00:15:26,956 Speaker 1: So for the therapeutic use of these compounds, that's very 247 00:15:26,996 --> 00:15:30,916 Speaker 1: well defined. That's FDA approval for therapeutic use. So all 248 00:15:30,916 --> 00:15:34,316 Speaker 1: of the research going on right now has been research 249 00:15:34,476 --> 00:15:37,316 Speaker 1: that's been FDA approved. In other words, FDA has approved 250 00:15:37,396 --> 00:15:40,316 Speaker 1: us to yes, you can do these studies. But at 251 00:15:40,396 --> 00:15:45,156 Speaker 1: some point the FDA will say yes or no, you 252 00:15:45,196 --> 00:15:49,516 Speaker 1: can give these to patients and straight up medical practice. 253 00:15:50,156 --> 00:15:53,196 Speaker 1: And so we call that it has to pass phase 254 00:15:53,276 --> 00:15:57,436 Speaker 1: three trials. That's the lingo research using MDIAMA to treat 255 00:15:57,476 --> 00:16:01,276 Speaker 1: PTSD is in that phase three process. There's been one 256 00:16:01,436 --> 00:16:03,996 Speaker 1: very successful looking phase three trial. They need to run 257 00:16:04,036 --> 00:16:06,756 Speaker 1: one more, and so we may be about two years 258 00:16:06,756 --> 00:16:09,516 Speaker 1: away if depending on the data from that second trial, 259 00:16:10,396 --> 00:16:12,996 Speaker 1: and I bet it is going to look good, because 260 00:16:13,036 --> 00:16:15,596 Speaker 1: the first trial looked very good. We may be two 261 00:16:15,636 --> 00:16:19,516 Speaker 1: years away from MDMA being approved for the treatment of PTSD. 262 00:16:20,076 --> 00:16:24,156 Speaker 1: For psilocybin, there's two entities in terms of the treatment 263 00:16:24,156 --> 00:16:27,876 Speaker 1: of depression. There's two entities that are in Phase two 264 00:16:27,996 --> 00:16:31,796 Speaker 1: B trials, so this is just before phase three. If 265 00:16:31,836 --> 00:16:35,716 Speaker 1: those trials are successful, we may be somewhere on the 266 00:16:35,836 --> 00:16:39,636 Speaker 1: order of three to four years away from psilocybin being 267 00:16:39,636 --> 00:16:42,836 Speaker 1: approved for the treatment of depression, and the work with 268 00:16:42,876 --> 00:16:45,916 Speaker 1: addiction is probably very close to that. We may be three, 269 00:16:46,036 --> 00:16:48,876 Speaker 1: four or five years away again, all depending on the 270 00:16:48,996 --> 00:16:52,316 Speaker 1: data in those phase three trials of psilocybin being approved 271 00:16:52,316 --> 00:16:56,836 Speaker 1: for tobacco addiction and alcohol addiction. That has to be 272 00:16:56,836 --> 00:16:59,796 Speaker 1: pretty exciting to have done some research that is actually 273 00:17:00,036 --> 00:17:04,356 Speaker 1: shifting the actual classification of drugs that for decades were 274 00:17:04,476 --> 00:17:10,196 Speaker 1: considered to be illegal, harmful, and you know, completely scified differently. 275 00:17:10,556 --> 00:17:12,276 Speaker 1: How do you feel Is that exciting for you? I 276 00:17:13,316 --> 00:17:16,276 Speaker 1: really love this area that I'm working in because I 277 00:17:16,316 --> 00:17:18,916 Speaker 1: feel like there's the opportunity to have an impact at 278 00:17:18,956 --> 00:17:22,676 Speaker 1: this time. I mean, so much of science necessarily as incremental. 279 00:17:23,356 --> 00:17:26,076 Speaker 1: Your work might add to something that adds to the 280 00:17:26,076 --> 00:17:28,316 Speaker 1: work of others, and you know, a generation or two 281 00:17:28,396 --> 00:17:31,556 Speaker 1: or three down the road, the big shift happens. But 282 00:17:31,676 --> 00:17:36,036 Speaker 1: I really think that with the potential approval of psychedelic drugs, 283 00:17:36,116 --> 00:17:40,516 Speaker 1: which I've helped contribute towards, that this could happen in 284 00:17:40,556 --> 00:17:42,996 Speaker 1: a few years. And I think this has the potential 285 00:17:43,476 --> 00:17:46,876 Speaker 1: to really be a paradigm shift in mental health treatment. 286 00:17:47,156 --> 00:17:49,876 Speaker 1: I think it's a fundamentally different way. It's really getting 287 00:17:49,916 --> 00:17:53,756 Speaker 1: more at the roots of mental illness than it is 288 00:17:53,796 --> 00:17:56,836 Speaker 1: just treating symptoms. And so it's just I feel lucky 289 00:17:56,916 --> 00:18:00,196 Speaker 1: and so excited and happy to be involved with work 290 00:18:00,276 --> 00:18:03,356 Speaker 1: that can actually have that type of real world impact 291 00:18:03,436 --> 00:18:11,316 Speaker 1: in my lifetime. Can you talk a little bit about 292 00:18:11,436 --> 00:18:16,556 Speaker 1: some of the actual risks that using psychedelics, whether therapeutically 293 00:18:16,716 --> 00:18:20,156 Speaker 1: or recreationally, can cost to a person. Right, we know 294 00:18:20,196 --> 00:18:24,436 Speaker 1: a lot about the risks. Certain people have a susceptibility 295 00:18:24,476 --> 00:18:28,836 Speaker 1: to disorders like schizophrenia. Those people can be destabilized the 296 00:18:28,876 --> 00:18:31,956 Speaker 1: same way a traumatic life event can destabilize those people 297 00:18:31,996 --> 00:18:35,436 Speaker 1: and either trigger or make their symptoms worse. There's also 298 00:18:35,476 --> 00:18:38,356 Speaker 1: for anyone taking these drugs that are high enough, those 299 00:18:38,356 --> 00:18:42,996 Speaker 1: there's the so called bad trip, which in a recreational 300 00:18:43,196 --> 00:18:47,236 Speaker 1: or an unsafe environment. It's pretty rare, admittedly, but sometimes 301 00:18:47,276 --> 00:18:49,636 Speaker 1: it leads to people getting harmed. I mean, it's kind 302 00:18:49,636 --> 00:18:51,556 Speaker 1: of like not wearing your seat belt. Most any one 303 00:18:51,596 --> 00:18:53,516 Speaker 1: given day of not wearing your seat belt, you'll probably 304 00:18:53,516 --> 00:18:55,156 Speaker 1: be fine. But if you step back and look at 305 00:18:55,156 --> 00:18:58,156 Speaker 1: the big picture, yeah, it's pretty clear there's a definitely 306 00:18:58,236 --> 00:19:00,596 Speaker 1: risk of not wearing a seat belt. So sometimes people 307 00:19:01,116 --> 00:19:03,396 Speaker 1: do things that get themselves hurt. They wander into traffic, 308 00:19:03,436 --> 00:19:05,996 Speaker 1: they freak out, they you know, they fall from a height, 309 00:19:06,036 --> 00:19:07,836 Speaker 1: and sometimes, you know, a lot is made out of 310 00:19:07,876 --> 00:19:10,276 Speaker 1: those that are pretty rare, they can happen. So there's 311 00:19:10,276 --> 00:19:14,076 Speaker 1: are real risks people at severe heart disease. It can 312 00:19:14,116 --> 00:19:17,876 Speaker 1: trigger a reaction because it psilocybin raises the blood pressure 313 00:19:17,876 --> 00:19:20,556 Speaker 1: and certainly MDMA even more so raise the blood pressure 314 00:19:20,556 --> 00:19:23,916 Speaker 1: and pulse. So that could be a problem for some people, 315 00:19:23,956 --> 00:19:28,076 Speaker 1: even though psilocybin itself for most people is very safe 316 00:19:28,076 --> 00:19:31,716 Speaker 1: at the physiological level. There's no known lethal overdose. So 317 00:19:31,756 --> 00:19:33,916 Speaker 1: those are the major risks, but importantly, we have a 318 00:19:33,956 --> 00:19:37,636 Speaker 1: way to address them all in research and clinical use, 319 00:19:38,076 --> 00:19:42,636 Speaker 1: through screening, through preparation, and monitoring. Because of these risks, 320 00:19:42,636 --> 00:19:45,196 Speaker 1: I certainly don't encourage anyone to use these on their own. 321 00:19:46,036 --> 00:19:48,756 Speaker 1: If listeners want to learn more about psychedelic treatment or 322 00:19:48,756 --> 00:19:52,596 Speaker 1: how they can support research into psychedelics, what can they do? 323 00:19:52,916 --> 00:19:56,476 Speaker 1: They can find out more about our research at Hopkins 324 00:19:56,716 --> 00:20:01,636 Speaker 1: Psychedelic dot org. If you're looking for psilocybin research, you 325 00:20:01,676 --> 00:20:04,676 Speaker 1: can find our studies that are posted there. You can 326 00:20:04,716 --> 00:20:09,516 Speaker 1: also search for studies on clinical trials dot gov really 327 00:20:09,516 --> 00:20:12,356 Speaker 1: across the US and the world for other sites that 328 00:20:12,396 --> 00:20:16,276 Speaker 1: are conducting research with psychedelics. If you want to learn 329 00:20:16,316 --> 00:20:18,996 Speaker 1: about some of the work that with MDMA that I mentioned, 330 00:20:19,036 --> 00:20:22,436 Speaker 1: you can go to maps dot org. So yeah, hopefully 331 00:20:22,476 --> 00:20:28,356 Speaker 1: that's helped the people. Doctor matt Johnson, this has been 332 00:20:28,396 --> 00:20:30,596 Speaker 1: a great conversation. I thank you so much for being 333 00:20:30,596 --> 00:20:35,796 Speaker 1: with us. Thank you, Ronald, I really enjoyed it. Matthew 334 00:20:35,836 --> 00:20:38,916 Speaker 1: Johnson is a professor of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at 335 00:20:38,996 --> 00:20:42,316 Speaker 1: Johns Hopkins University. Be sure to check out our show 336 00:20:42,316 --> 00:20:44,876 Speaker 1: notes to find links to the resources Matthew mentioned in 337 00:20:44,876 --> 00:20:49,876 Speaker 1: this episode. Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank, research by 338 00:20:50,036 --> 00:20:54,396 Speaker 1: David Jah, booking by Lisa Dunn. Our managing producer is 339 00:20:54,436 --> 00:20:58,636 Speaker 1: Sasha Matthias. And our executive producer is Mio LaBelle I'm 340 00:20:58,716 --> 00:21:01,076 Speaker 1: Ronald Jung Jr. Thanks for listening.