Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. It's
Speaker 1: a podcast about people who did stuff. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: Margaret Kildren, and with me today as my guest is
Speaker 1: the only person who has written a book about hot dogs.
Speaker 1: That is currently on my bedside table because I haven't
Speaker 1: started it yet.
Speaker 2: I loved this. I was wondering how that sentence was
Speaker 2: going to end, and I'm very satisfied with where it landed.
Speaker 2: What a treat.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I'm excited to read it. It was waiting
Speaker 1: for me when I came back from the trip. Although
Speaker 1: now I was ended up like kind of sad because
Speaker 1: I saw you on this trip and I didn't get
Speaker 1: it signed. Which is the lesson that you should never
Speaker 1: pre order books. That is the lesson that I.
Speaker 2: Think that that's true. I will be carrying that lesson
Speaker 2: into to sabotage everyone I know.
Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, because if you pre order books, it helps
Speaker 1: people's careers amazing, like the fact that Jamie Loftus is
Speaker 1: now a New York Times bestselling author.
Speaker 2: It's the perfect crime. Magpie is complicit in this crime.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I just think it's cool and
Speaker 1: you can put that on books from now on. And
Speaker 1: people will be like hell yeah, and people can't give
Speaker 1: you shit anymore, because if people give you shit, you
Speaker 1: can be like, yeah, they.
Speaker 2: Don't know it was only one week because of pre orders.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It really is, like, Actually, why I push
Speaker 1: preorders so hard with everything that I publish is that
Speaker 1: totally it matters a lot. It's disproportionate. But the rest
Speaker 1: of the credits. The other voice that you're hearing is
Speaker 1: the one and only Sophie Lichtermann. Hi, Sophie, how are
Speaker 1: you doing.
Speaker 3: Hey, I'm good.
Speaker 2: My friends are here. Yeah, it's a good day. It's
Speaker 2: a good day. Yeah, friends are here. Dogs here.
Speaker 3: I can see your dog, Magpie.
Speaker 1: Good dog is sleeping on the floor behind my chair.
Speaker 1: At some point he'll get up and run around and
Speaker 1: have too much energy because it's too hot out, so
Speaker 1: he doesn't like spending all this time outside, so he's
Speaker 1: too much energy.
Speaker 3: I am sad to not be able to see flee
Speaker 3: Jamie's cat.
Speaker 2: Me too. Boy, he's a good boy. He'll be he'll
Speaker 2: be with me soon enough. But yeah, he's just been
Speaker 2: really hating. He's he's a real hater of global warming,
Speaker 2: more so than most people, because only only in selfish ways.
Speaker 2: But he's just been sort of like climbing around my
Speaker 2: dad's house, hissing at the general vibe.
Speaker 1: Fair. You don't know what he gets up to at night.
Speaker 1: He could be off trying to confront global warming in
Speaker 1: a more direct way.
Speaker 2: It's true he's doing direct action, but only at night. Yeah, yeah, exactly,
Speaker 2: That's when the best direct action is done.
Speaker 1: That's often true, depending on the type of direct action
Speaker 1: you want to do. Which are we talking about some today?
Speaker 1: But okay, wait, first, our audio editor is Ian. Everyone
Speaker 1: say hi to Ian, including Ian Ian. Our theme music
Speaker 1: was written for us by unwoman Jamie. You've ever heard
Speaker 1: of Molly mcguires?
Speaker 2: Ooh no, it just sounds like someone who's probably related
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll find out my grandma.
Speaker 2: My grandma's maiden name was McGuire, and she has so
Speaker 2: many siblings that died, probably one was named Molly.
Speaker 1: So Molly maguire herself was potentially fictitious and we'll talk
Speaker 1: about that.
Speaker 2: Oh exciting, Okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So this week we're going to talk about
Speaker 1: what happens when owners drag strikes out indefinitely in order
Speaker 1: to break a union.
Speaker 2: Why we'd be talking about that. Okay, you know, seems random.
Speaker 1: But I know, just completely random thing that's happening this week.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: We're going to start by going back to the eighteenth
Speaker 1: and nineteenth century to talk about the long history of
Speaker 1: collective retributive agrarian violence and secret societies in Ireland.
Speaker 2: Ooh okay, I'm so excited for this. This is like
Speaker 2: an algorithm chose for me. This is great.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I really lost myself in researching this one.
Speaker 1: A lot of rabbit holes. This is great, And we'll
Speaker 1: talk about how that came to a head and lives
Speaker 1: in the American imagination in the coal fields of northeastern Pennsylvania,
Speaker 1: where some Irish miners took it upon themselves to defend
Speaker 1: their community and their way of life against their bosses
Speaker 1: or depending on how you want to look at it,
Speaker 1: they became just another shitty gang. But sixteen mine bosses
Speaker 1: and cops and shit got murdered. Twenty irishmen ended up hanged,
Speaker 1: all because they weren't allowed to union nies anymore.
Speaker 2: Oh, for folk's sake, Okay, I did have to do
Speaker 2: the standard brain check of uh not children, minors.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, okay, people who go into the minds actually
Speaker 1: make it even more complicated. They're actually mostly mine laborers
Speaker 1: and not minors, because minor was the specialized job and
Speaker 1: mine laborers got paid a third as much money.
Speaker 2: And oh, it's like animation writers and TV and live
Speaker 2: action writers.
Speaker 1: Interesting, there's no and with what's happening now, I don't
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm just I'm I'm projecting everything is about me.
Speaker 2: I thought you were I thought that sentence was going.
Speaker 2: It's difficult to talk about because most of them are
Speaker 2: minor minors, which would be kind of I mean minor semantically,
Speaker 2: but also you know, realistically, I'm glad it was it
Speaker 2: is glad it didn't go that way.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean a lot of them are about
Speaker 1: a third of them are children, some of the miners times.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Although actually ironically, early on in the coal fields and
Speaker 1: we'll talk more about this in a little bit, early
Speaker 1: on in the coal fields, there's actually better labor conditions
Speaker 1: than later once it became more monopolized, and this group
Speaker 1: is going to kind of span that difference. And for
Speaker 1: a while children were actually not allowed to go into
Speaker 1: the mines, but instead were shale breakers who hung out
Speaker 1: on the surface and broke rocks all day. It's not great,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't give you black. You got to wait
Speaker 1: till you're like maybe sixteen before you can get cirketting
Speaker 1: black lung, which maybe today's characters die of.
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, wow, this is so fast. I can't
Speaker 2: even conceive of what story happening right now that this
Speaker 2: could be a reflection of. But I'm also thinking about
Speaker 2: because I just can't not think about hot dogs until
Speaker 2: I die. Now about meatpacking too. I feel like I'm
Speaker 2: going to have some meat packing symmetry here. I'm so
Speaker 2: excited to hear about.
Speaker 1: This because I will happen.
Speaker 2: Also, it just it feels like an industry that has
Speaker 2: gotten progressively worse as time goes on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I learned that. Actually I learned that from you
Speaker 1: reading an excerpt of your book. And if people like
Speaker 1: history about this kind of thing, I recommend Raw Dog
Speaker 1: by Jamie Waltas. So this week we're going to talk
Speaker 1: about the Molly Maguire's, which was a semi real secret
Speaker 1: society of poor irishmen who declared their Lloyd loyalty to
Speaker 1: a mythological woman. Broke out and broke out weapons, and
Speaker 1: they did this in two countries, and to tell the
Speaker 1: story that came to head in eighteen seventy seven. We
Speaker 1: are of course going to go back across the ocean
Speaker 1: to one hundred years earlier, to the mythical emerald land
Speaker 1: of leprechauns and fairies called Ireland. There's this country, or
Speaker 1: Ireland or whatever it's called Ireland. We've covered Irish stuff
Speaker 1: a bunch of times on the show already. People should
Speaker 1: check out when we talked about Roger Casement, the gay
Speaker 1: Irish knight who brought down King Leopold and was killed
Speaker 1: for trying to end English rule in Ireland, or Grace O'Malley,
Speaker 1: the pirate Queen of the West Coast of Ireland, and
Speaker 1: I talk more about the greater breadth of Irish history,
Speaker 1: and I think those episodes and those actually weirdly bookend
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. Grace O'Malley was before Roger Caseman's
Speaker 1: after we're going to start in the eighteenth century. Ireland
Speaker 1: was really fucking poor in the eighteenth century. It had
Speaker 1: plenty of resources, but it was a colony, and colonies
Speaker 1: are set up so that the Brits can extract your value.
Speaker 2: Don't seem to really benefit from their many resources. Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, Yeah, it was Britain's first colony. They famously went
Speaker 1: on to have a few more.
Speaker 2: You never forgot your first time, I know, I know.
Speaker 1: That's the one that caught away. Fortunately most most of
Speaker 1: them have gotten away at this point.
Speaker 2: Wow. Really really horrific metaphor we're crafting here.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in sixteen ninety five you get the Irish penal codes.
Speaker 1: The Popoury Law of seventeen oh four basically said that
Speaker 1: if you are Catholic. I know, if you're Catholic, you
Speaker 1: can't have any land. You can't own any land on
Speaker 1: your own island if you're Catholic, which, for anyone keeping track,
Speaker 1: most of the indigenous people of Ireland were Catholic and
Speaker 1: most of the settlers were Protestant. This is there's blurriness here,
Speaker 1: and I'm not trying to make like grand generalizations, but
Speaker 1: that's a big part of all of this. I feel like, probably.
Speaker 2: Funny if this is where you came out as extremely
Speaker 2: pro Catholic, You're like, this is, as we all know,
Speaker 2: a Catholic podcast, so.
Speaker 1: Really upgrading. I mean, what's funny is that, like this
Speaker 1: is actually an episode about exactly the part of Catholicism
Speaker 1: I like, which is the Catholics who hate the Church.
Speaker 2: Yes, that is a very powerful and underdiscussed area. I mean,
Speaker 2: granted for good reason. But I don't know has anyone
Speaker 2: else in this call been personally victimized by Catholicism.
Speaker 1: I got really lucky in that I was technically raised
Speaker 1: Catholic by someone who's effectively pagan and didn't make me
Speaker 1: go to church. So I kind of got raised by
Speaker 1: the kind of Catholics that we're talking about today.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so he won the Catholic lottery. Congratulations.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll take it you were not so lucky.
Speaker 2: No, but there's certainly people who in my own home
Speaker 2: state that had it worse.
Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough. So the Catholics are suddenly dispossessed. So
Speaker 1: the Irish are no longer allowed to own land in Ireland,
Speaker 1: and so people had been on this land for millennia
Speaker 1: and they suddenly found they didn't own the place anymore.
Speaker 1: And it didn't help that traditional Brehen law, the pre
Speaker 1: Christian law in Ireland that was still kind of going
Speaker 1: a little bit at this point, didn't have the same
Speaker 1: conceptions of absolute landownership. So It's part of how they
Speaker 1: showed and be like, you don't even like own this,
Speaker 1: we can just like own it. You know, Ireland was
Speaker 1: carved up by Protestant landowners, many of whom were British,
Speaker 1: many of whom were Irish born descendants of the British,
Speaker 1: and it was carved up into these estates and suddenly
Speaker 1: everyone owed rent. I don't know if you've ever been
Speaker 1: personally victimized by rent, but it is another system of extraction,
Speaker 1: much like the.
Speaker 2: Catholic Actually not currently, Margarete, because I just got evicted,
Speaker 2: so kind of slaying on a different.
Speaker 3: Level, no fault of fiction. I also just to say,
Speaker 3: not that it matters, but.
Speaker 1: Yes, there's plenty of eviction related slain about to happen
Speaker 1: in this story.
Speaker 2: Yes, oh, I can't wait.
Speaker 1: So suddenly your landlord is making money off of you.
Speaker 1: It's even more egregious because of the family. Your family
Speaker 1: had owned the place since time immemorial. And your landlord
Speaker 1: is some guy with a British accent, or even just
Speaker 1: speaking English at all. Different parts of Ireland were and
Speaker 1: weren't speaking English. And that guy, your landlord, doesn't even
Speaker 1: live in the country, and he takes all of your wages,
Speaker 1: the rent you pay, and he uses it to hire
Speaker 1: people to kill you and beat you up in this
Speaker 1: case called colonial troops. More commonly understood now, is police
Speaker 1: not really big ato capitalism or imperialism. As listeners the
Speaker 1: show might be aware.
Speaker 2: Okay, see that's the pro catholic thing. I just wanted
Speaker 2: to is bad that I needed that I knew.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the Irish in the seventeenth century, eighteenth century,
Speaker 1: they're they're poor as fuck overall, and despite what British
Speaker 1: newspapers claimed, they weren't stupid. They knew what was happening,
Speaker 1: and no one has ever successfully claimed that the Irish
Speaker 1: are cowards. So they decided to do something about it.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of ways that they decide to do
Speaker 1: something about it. Many of those ways involved like organizing
Speaker 1: and trying to have revolutions and shit, and those are great,
Speaker 1: and we have talked about some of them, and we'll
Speaker 1: talk about more of them, but today that's not what
Speaker 1: we're talking about. Today. We're going to start with what's
Speaker 1: called a very in violence. Good band name I know,
Speaker 1: and a better band name than what's about to happen,
Speaker 1: which is it started in the way that nothing else
Speaker 1: good has ever started or ever will because it started
Speaker 1: with the White Boys.
Speaker 2: Oh horrible band name, the worst band name I can
Speaker 2: think of.
Speaker 1: There's so many unfortunate things in the back of this,
Speaker 1: in this story where I'm like, everything's really cool except
Speaker 1: for this one part that really people should just try
Speaker 1: and copy.
Speaker 2: We just need a second draft.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's the real revision of history is we're
Speaker 1: literally going to just change history, not change what we
Speaker 1: talk about, but we're going to go back in time
Speaker 1: and be like, this isn't going to read good in
Speaker 1: a couple hundred years.
Speaker 2: You won't believe. I mean, things are, we're doing great,
Speaker 2: but yeah, we just needed a name change.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you have all these tenant farmers, and I'm
Speaker 1: going to conflate a whole lot of geography and like
Speaker 1: an entire century into one overly convenient narrative. But landlords
Speaker 1: weren't charging as much around as they possibly could overall, sorry,
Speaker 1: were charging much money as much money as they possibly
Speaker 1: could overall. The Anglican Church they're in on it too.
Speaker 1: They're charging tithes aka taxes on the land. So you
Speaker 1: have to pay tithes for a church for a Ford religion,
Speaker 1: as well as your taxes too, landlord. The landlords could
Speaker 1: charge a ton for farming land, and they'd be like, well, look,
Speaker 1: we're charging you all this money for the farming land,
Speaker 1: but you have all of the access to the commons.
Speaker 1: You have all of this access to grazing land, and
Speaker 1: so it's fine, you'll be fine. It's going to be
Speaker 1: totally fine. The commons was this age old tradition of
Speaker 1: having a fuck ton of land that just kind of
Speaker 1: belongs to everyone where you can like graze your animals
Speaker 1: and harvest timber and shit. I'm going to come back
Speaker 1: to the White Boys, but first, do you want to
Speaker 1: hear about how Ireland lost all its trees?
Speaker 2: Oh? No, yeah, but yes, I do know, I.
Speaker 1: Know it's kind of heartbreaking.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: In the BC, this is like.
Speaker 2: The Irish Loraxe story. Yeah, I mean is they're Irish
Speaker 2: law rats.
Speaker 1: It's like it's more like the lore Ax's children have
Speaker 1: come back for vengeance.
Speaker 2: Ooh okay, I would watch this a twenty four movie
Speaker 2: that rocks.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So Ireland used to be about eighty percent forested
Speaker 1: in the sort of BC times, and pre Christian Island
Speaker 1: you had not pre Christian Ireland, you had Bretan law,
Speaker 1: which included cool shit like women can initiate divorce, which actually,
Speaker 1: like when I talk about the like weird Catholic folk
Speaker 1: Catholicism of Ireland, like I did an episode where it
Speaker 1: talks about how like women in the sixteenth century who
Speaker 1: were ostensibly Catholic were divorcing their husbands because wild, because
Speaker 1: that was part of Irish Catholicism. Because Irish Catholic anyway,
Speaker 1: it wasn't Roman Catholicism. It's distinct.
Speaker 2: Don't tell current Irish Catholics. They will not take well
Speaker 2: to this.
Speaker 1: No, we'll even talk about how that happened in the
Speaker 1: mid nineteenth century.
Speaker 2: Yay.
Speaker 1: So because Breton law survived. The Christianization of Ireland started
Speaker 1: in the fourth century, and it didn't really start going
Speaker 1: away until the English, or rather the Normans first in
Speaker 1: the twelfth century. Brend Law survived longer in some places,
Speaker 1: which is how you have these Catholics getting divorced. Then
Speaker 1: Henry the Eighth and Queen Elizabeth in the whatever century,
Speaker 1: early modern, late Renaissance, whatever the fuck. I didn't write
Speaker 1: down the years, and I don't remember off the top
Speaker 1: of my head because I read too many books. Henry
Speaker 1: the eighth and Queen Elizabeth were like, man, you know what,
Speaker 1: we hate the forest. We hate that the Irish have forests.
Speaker 1: They specifically hated the forests because the Irish kept hiding
Speaker 1: in the forest to kill all the British people.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, So it was not I mean, not that
Speaker 2: this makes it better, but I was like, is it
Speaker 2: just a random like I woke up today and decided
Speaker 2: that I because it seems like imperial types do that
Speaker 2: as well, where they're like, you know what, I'd like
Speaker 2: to destroy forever today?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's like kind of a colonization itself,
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, what if I just go over there
Speaker 1: and just destroy everything.
Speaker 2: I'm cranky today? What if I ruined thousands of people's
Speaker 2: lives generationally forever?
Speaker 1: Yeah. They cut down all the forests and they turned
Speaker 1: it into boats, so they had like build an armada
Speaker 1: against Spain or whatever. By sixteen hundred Irish force, forests
Speaker 1: are down to twelve percent of the island and the
Speaker 1: sixteen hundred is The English also started killing all the wolves,
Speaker 1: bastard alumni of the pod Oliver Cromwell paying a bounty
Speaker 1: to kill wolves. Historically, the Irish were like, really, into
Speaker 1: wolves and their enemies called them wolves a lot, and
Speaker 1: so it was also there's like symbolism in killing all
Speaker 1: the wolves. By sixteen fifty six, there's only two percent
Speaker 1: of the forest left, which is how it is now
Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty years later, there's still only two
Speaker 1: percent of the forest left in Ireland.
Speaker 2: Wow, there's been have there? Well, I mean this is
Speaker 2: out of the scope, but I'm curious if there's been
Speaker 2: reforestation efforts. I'm imagining there has been.
Speaker 3: Bit.
Speaker 1: I mean there are and actually a lot of this,
Speaker 1: this little chunk comes from I forgot to write down
Speaker 1: the name of a group, a group that is working
Speaker 1: to reforest Ireland.
Speaker 2: Oh that's amazing, Okay, yeah, No.
Speaker 1: It's interesting because there is this whole movement to reclaim
Speaker 1: a lot of traditional Irish values and culture and language,
Speaker 1: and some of that includes reforesting and stuff like that.
Speaker 2: As the proud owner of a hat that says sci
Speaker 2: Fi sluts for reforestation, I'm very in favor of this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: By seventeen eighty six, the last wolf in Ireland was killed.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: When I was sixteen, I visited my family in Ireland
Speaker 1: and I saw that they're like wornheady trees little and
Speaker 1: I like just cried and wrote a bunch of shitty
Speaker 1: poetry about it.
Speaker 2: Anyway, I wish i've it is my one of my
Speaker 2: great wishes. Well, my dad is still young enough to
Speaker 2: sort of make the trip with me to go back
Speaker 2: to his because his memories of Ireland they're very funny
Speaker 2: because it's like we're I think I'm third generation American
Speaker 2: and my dad used to have to go back to
Speaker 2: the farm that his family is from in like the
Speaker 2: depths of Galway and work for the summer. And so
Speaker 2: every time I'm like, let's go to Galway together, and
Speaker 2: he's like boom no. But I was like, they they
Speaker 2: can't make you work anymore. You're old.
Speaker 1: Come on, I'm also third generation from Galway, so no way.
Speaker 2: Wow, which is cosmically connected. Maybe some of our ancestors
Speaker 2: suffered on the same farmland.
Speaker 1: Yeah flat. At the same time, so Ireland has these
Speaker 1: tenant farmers. They're told they can't access the commons, which
Speaker 1: was the justification for the high rents, and so the
Speaker 1: enclosure movement happens, which is basically one of the worst
Speaker 1: things that's ever happened in all history, and actually pretty
Speaker 1: much capitalism comes out of it. And probably the reason
Speaker 1: that we're all going to drown and die of global
Speaker 1: warming is because of this thing that happened in England
Speaker 1: around this time and that they brought over to Ireland,
Speaker 1: which is they went around and they stole all the
Speaker 1: communal land and created a new economic system based on that.
Speaker 1: The landlords, they are like, what if instead of letting
Speaker 1: peasants grace their livestock and grow food on all this
Speaker 1: common lands, what if we just throw fences around it,
Speaker 1: arrest everyone who trespasses and steal their livestock and hold
Speaker 1: it for ransom and call it impoundment. So they do that,
Speaker 1: and this dispossesses not just the Catholics, but Catholics and Protestants.
Speaker 1: This is a class thing and not a religious thing,
Speaker 1: a sectarian thing, I see. And in the eighteenth century
Speaker 1: there actually wasn't as much sectarian conflict along class line
Speaker 1: within class lines in Ireland. It was fairly united in
Speaker 1: the like fuck this attitude, and so you get what's
Speaker 1: called agrarian violence, the Irish reputation for being fighty. But
Speaker 1: it's usually perceived as like drunken angry men hitting each other,
Speaker 1: as Chile's But a grarian violence is not that it
Speaker 1: is class warfare against the rich, or rather self collective
Speaker 1: self defense. Not all of it was good. Some of
Speaker 1: it was very good, and it started with the White boys.
Speaker 2: Oh God, Magpie, you know the sentence that just came
Speaker 2: out of your mind. I know, I know, all right,
Speaker 2: but I'm I'm I'm listening. Nonetheless, Yeah, there's so many
Speaker 2: complicated things. But before I tell you about the white.
Speaker 1: Boys, why don't I tell you about It'd be really
Speaker 1: awkward if potatoes was the sponsor today.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, before before you talk about the white boys,
Speaker 2: let's toss the white boys a couple of bucks because
Speaker 2: they make most products and services. Right, Yeah, that's a
Speaker 2: really at least benefit from them. Woo, and we're back.
Speaker 1: So the white Boys in this context is somewhere between
Speaker 1: an organization, a secret society, and a tactic. Some groups
Speaker 1: formed and officially called themselves the White Boys. Others just
Speaker 1: used the tact tactic and it was basically all all
Speaker 1: anti landlord violence that happened around this time was called
Speaker 1: white boyism, again, a label we will not be bringing back.
Speaker 1: This was not about they wore white clothes when they
Speaker 1: did this stuff. They often wore white dresses. This was
Speaker 1: often men dressing as women, so irishmen would dress up
Speaker 1: in white clothes, often dresses, pledge their allegiance to a
Speaker 1: mythical woman or goddess named siv All Talk or Ghostly
Speaker 1: Sally in English, or to other mythical women named Johanna
Speaker 1: Meskill or Sheila Meskill. And then they would go out
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night and threaten, beat, and
Speaker 1: assassinate landlords, bailiffs, land agents, tenants who moved into people's
Speaker 1: homes they had just been evicted from, and basically anyone
Speaker 1: who went against I guess you could call it the
Speaker 1: people's law, and you got a lot of things. You've
Speaker 1: got community self defense. You could call it terrorism. There
Speaker 1: are a lot of words for what they did. Most extensively,
Speaker 1: this happened in the northern, Middle and northern western parts
Speaker 1: of the country, especially in places where Irish culture was
Speaker 1: being impacted most directly by colonial culture at that time.
Speaker 1: Okay and the White Boys were explicitly non sectarian, but
Speaker 1: meanwhile sectarianism and nationalism and revolution are brewing. It's something
Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought through about Irish revolutionary movements and
Speaker 1: anti colonial movements is that, like you take countries that
Speaker 1: are colonial forces, like the US or Rhodesia, who have
Speaker 1: these like quote unquote revolutions where the colonists want to
Speaker 1: be free from their home country, but they actually like
Speaker 1: are still the settlers and controlling the economy and fucking
Speaker 1: over the people who originally lived there, you know, right,
Speaker 1: And then you have actual anti colonial movements when indigenous
Speaker 1: people want to be free. And Ireland had both, yes,
Speaker 1: and they often worked together. Some people were like, I
Speaker 1: don't like paying taxes anymore on the money that I
Speaker 1: steal from all these poor people and other people. The
Speaker 1: Catholics were like, how come we're not equal? Fuck this
Speaker 1: also fuck England. And they worked together and they wanted
Speaker 1: a republic. Spoiler alert. They failed.
Speaker 2: Oh well yeah that's so yeah, I need that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, god, the world would be different. It would
Speaker 1: be so different, no potato famine, no mass immigration. So
Speaker 1: they managed to take part of the island as the
Speaker 1: Irish Republic, only a small part of it, and it
Speaker 1: lasted about twelve days. This was not incredibly successful. This
Speaker 1: was sixteen ninety eight, seventeen ninety eight. Oh god, you
Speaker 1: think I would have written it? Down in the Script
Speaker 1: seventeen ninety eight. But part of the way that England
Speaker 1: won is they did some divide and conquer shit. They
Speaker 1: told all the Protestants in the North, hey, if you
Speaker 1: turn your back on all the Catholics that you're fighting
Speaker 1: alongside of, well forgive you for your little rebellion. People
Speaker 1: took them up on it, and that's where a lot
Speaker 1: of sectarianism comes from in Ireland. That is the start
Speaker 1: of sectarian gangs of Protestants and Catholics murdering each other.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't perfect before that, but more and more
Speaker 1: historians are coming around to them. The most of the
Speaker 1: early struggle was not religiously sectarian, and it was a
Speaker 1: class and anti colonial focused.
Speaker 2: So the Secret Society talking about shit like that, people
Speaker 2: hate that.
Speaker 1: I know know what I would I keep reading all
Speaker 1: these historians being like. One of the problems is that
Speaker 1: since Ireland kind of won its independence, everything got rewritten
Speaker 1: to be about Irish nationalism, and specifically Irish Catholic nationalism,
Speaker 1: and everything kind of got rewritten to be like the
Speaker 1: Catholic Church is the heroes of all of this, and
Speaker 1: they sort of used it to impose a theocratic state
Speaker 1: for most of the twentieth century in the Ireland and
Speaker 1: prevent people from controlling their bodies.
Speaker 2: It's always I feel like you have a unique ability
Speaker 2: to force me to hold two realities or the duration
Speaker 2: of enough.
Speaker 1: To say that the Catholics are oppressed and that the
Speaker 1: Catholic Church was monstrous.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, exactly the Catholic Church that has existed in
Speaker 2: our lifetime and the one that you're talking about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally and okay. So the secret societies in
Speaker 1: Ireland they split at this time too. The Protestants formed
Speaker 1: the Orange Order, who are still around in their right
Speaker 1: wing pro England guys. And the Catholics absolutely without the
Speaker 1: Church's blessing and against the Church's direct order because they're
Speaker 1: Fault Catholics, not Roman Catholics. They formed their own new
Speaker 1: groups called with all kinds of names, and the ones
Speaker 1: that I've written down or founder the Threshers, the Lady Claires,
Speaker 1: the Terry Alts, and the Ribbon Men.
Speaker 2: These are roller derby teams and you know it.
Speaker 1: Yes, and the Ribbon Men is all butch and it rules.
Speaker 2: And I'm rooting for them fairoughly at inch and every
Speaker 2: match except.
Speaker 1: When they go against the Lady Claires who are all
Speaker 1: trans women, and then.
Speaker 2: You're you're going back and forth. You're like, I can't
Speaker 2: really lose in this scenario.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, right, whence we win? Yeah, And so
Speaker 1: all of these groups get conflated together. The most famous
Speaker 1: of these is the Ribbon Men, so I'm going to
Speaker 1: follow their thread. They started as a group called the
Speaker 1: Society of Ribbon Men, and they were an outgrowth of
Speaker 1: the Defenders, which was a radical Republican Catholic sectarian group
Speaker 1: who had been they were absorbed into the United Irish
Speaker 1: prior to the Revolution of seventeen I So there had
Speaker 1: been this group and then seventeen ninety eight came and failed,
Speaker 1: and then the Society the Ribbon Men came out. But
Speaker 1: they were radically Republican also even though they just but
Speaker 1: they were specifically at the start anti clerical again, because
Speaker 1: the Church was like, you can't do this, and they
Speaker 1: were like, we're gonna anyway, right, And they got their
Speaker 1: name because they wore a green ribbon in their buttonhole.
Speaker 1: There were two main centers of the Ribbon Men between
Speaker 1: eighteen twenty two and eighteen forty. One was in Dublin.
Speaker 1: The other was in north central Ireland. In north central Ireland,
Speaker 1: the Orange Order was very strong, and so there's a
Speaker 1: lot of just like street fights. Some of the ribbon
Speaker 1: Men's stuff was this going around at night and fucking
Speaker 1: shit up. A lot of it was just getting into
Speaker 1: street fights with the Protestant gangs.
Speaker 2: Regardless, I think that the white boys could really take
Speaker 2: take some hints, some tips from the ribbon men and
Speaker 2: just you know, named themselves a little more vaguely. The
Speaker 2: ribbon men could mean anything. I could be on their side.
Speaker 2: I could not be on their side.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. I don't want to be on the
Speaker 1: White boys side, just instinctively.
Speaker 2: I know. And then the fact that we are put
Speaker 2: in this position, it seems very unfair.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's gonna get worse. The Molly mcguires do some
Speaker 1: stuff that we'll get to it, okay. So they spread
Speaker 1: to the to England and Scotland as the Hiberian Funeral Society,
Speaker 1: which is probably it almost certainly means this is a
Speaker 1: fraternal order where people come together, like before people at
Speaker 1: health insurance and stuff. You would join a fraternal order
Speaker 1: like the Masons are example of this, and you would
Speaker 1: join a fraternal order and you pay your dues, and
Speaker 1: then when you needed a funeral or a wedding or whatever,
Speaker 1: it would pay for it.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: So the Hiberian Funeral Society was almost certainly just like
Speaker 1: the Irish people who need like work.
Speaker 2: When you die, and then your boys throw you a funeral.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, so your family can afford to see you
Speaker 1: in the ground and stuff.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: It sounds like, here's a society that's going to make
Speaker 1: you need a funeral, and they come from a group
Speaker 1: that absolutely made some people need funerals, so that's kind
Speaker 1: of cool. In eighteen twenty five they had a split.
Speaker 1: The majority formed Saint Patrick's Fraternal Society in order to
Speaker 1: make the church happy, because the church was like, you
Speaker 1: can't have secret societies, fuck you. But a bunch of
Speaker 1: them continued under the name Ribbon Men or now you
Speaker 1: get the Molly mcguires, and this was an agrarian urban
Speaker 1: split in some ways. The agrarian folks were like, nah,
Speaker 1: I just want to fuck up landlords and be wild.
Speaker 1: The urban folks were like, you know, let's develop this
Speaker 1: into like a more of a nationalist thing for the
Speaker 1: freedom of Ireland.
Speaker 2: Whatever.
Speaker 1: They're both fine, but following the ribbon men through this
Speaker 1: particular and the Molly mcguires, what would they do? Basically
Speaker 1: their motto was if you fuck with the peasants, will
Speaker 1: fucking kill you.
Speaker 2: Or I mean, no arguing, no arguing so far. But yeah,
Speaker 2: but what are their methods?
Speaker 1: So one of their main methods was what was called
Speaker 1: a coffin notice, which is where you go up and
Speaker 1: you put a threatening note on a door with a
Speaker 1: picture of a coffin on it, and you're like, this
Speaker 1: is you, buddy, You're going to be living in this coffin.
Speaker 2: So dramatic.
Speaker 4: I love this Jack all right, alright, Jesus, I'm going
Speaker 4: to quote from a coffin notice that was posted on
Speaker 4: all the Catholic churches in one region in eighteen fifty
Speaker 4: one to landlords, agents, bailiffs, grippers.
Speaker 1: I have no idea what a gripper is. The Internet
Speaker 1: won't tell me. Wait grip or ripper, gripper, Yeah, no idea.
Speaker 1: Irish slang from eighteen fifty one is hard to fucking google,
Speaker 1: especially when it's a word to me. I know, maybe
Speaker 1: actually it's just a time traveling person from the current
Speaker 1: strike and it's actually a key grip.
Speaker 2: Oh, the best boys, the key grips. They're traveling through
Speaker 2: time to be Molly Maguire's. Yeah, I would watch that
Speaker 2: movie if we're allowed to make it.
Speaker 1: To landlords, agents, bailiff's grippers, process servers, and usurpers or
Speaker 1: underminers who wish to step into evicted tenant's property, and
Speaker 1: to all others concerned and tyranny and oppression of the
Speaker 1: poor on the Bath estate, take notice. Take notices in
Speaker 1: all caps that you are hereby under the pain of
Speaker 1: a certain punishment which will inevitably occur. Prohibited from evicting tenants,
Speaker 1: executing decrees, serving process, distraining for rent, or going into
Speaker 1: another's land, or to assist any tyrant landlord eight or
Speaker 1: agent in his insatiable desire for depopulation. Recollect the fact
Speaker 1: the fate of Maleveler on this his anniversary dated May
Speaker 1: twenty third, eighteen fifty one. Maleveler was a magistrate or
Speaker 1: a land agent, guy who found himself suddenly dead.
Speaker 2: Okay, and not a cartoon dragon, which was my guess.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, yeah, okay, okay, until we that we make it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that absolute rocks. I would be a fan of
Speaker 2: bringing back the Leveler as a cartoon dragon, and that
Speaker 2: reminds me of like how there was this group of
Speaker 2: middle school juggle lettes that I really wanted to be
Speaker 2: accepted by and they would say shit that in that
Speaker 2: kind of cadence, it's a very powerful cadence.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I actually think there's some juggle at there's some juggle
Speaker 1: at energy going on with the Molly maguires. We're going
Speaker 1: to talk about in terms of their fat and clothing
Speaker 1: and questionable decisions.
Speaker 2: They have a little outfits.
Speaker 1: Oh, they have outfits, especially makeup and okay, so so
Speaker 1: now random acts of violence and agrarian violence that are
Speaker 1: which are collective violence. These are attributed to white boys
Speaker 1: and ribbon men alike, but not to be outdone onto
Speaker 1: the stage of history stuff our main heroes and kind
Speaker 1: of anti heroes a little, the Molly fuckings. There is
Speaker 1: likely continuity between the Defenders, the ribbon men, and the
Speaker 1: Molly mcguires. Almost everything we know about any of these
Speaker 1: groups comes from people who hate them. It is mostly
Speaker 1: the state trying to destroy them, who writes all of
Speaker 1: the things that we have Besides some coffin notices and
Speaker 1: one letter from like one hundred from decades later in Pennsylvania,
Speaker 1: that we'll get to the in eighteen fifties, the ribbon
Speaker 1: Men and the mcguires are probably the same organization or
Speaker 1: sort of non organization. It was a lot of kind
Speaker 1: of like Antifa. It's like like sometimes there's organizations that
Speaker 1: call themselves it, but lots of people just do it
Speaker 1: and call themselves it and use similar tactics.
Speaker 2: Okay, so it's historically is it hard to tease out
Speaker 2: which is which it is?
Speaker 1: And partly because a lot of it revolves around conspiracy
Speaker 1: cases where the state wants to claim that everyone is
Speaker 1: part of a formal organization and the newspapers.
Speaker 2: Are sound familiar.
Speaker 1: I know, it's very anti Factually, it's like all of
Speaker 1: these people and in this case, all Irish people are
Speaker 1: like drunk, evil terrorists who are lazy, and that's why
Speaker 1: they go through incredible amounts of effort and risk their
Speaker 1: lives to defend the land they're on. That's the symptom
Speaker 1: of laziness. I've ever heard one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, extreme effort that could kill you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So when the Irish were driven off of
Speaker 1: land or enclosures were set up, the molly maguires would
Speaker 1: storm the place, tear down fences, drive off or mutilate
Speaker 1: and kill livestock. This is one of their not great
Speaker 1: moments from my point of view. You know, they're not
Speaker 1: big animal rights people. Landlord agents were threatened, beaten, and killed.
Speaker 1: Tenants who settled on evicted eviction land were treated the
Speaker 1: same way. Merchants and millers were attacked if they charged
Speaker 1: too high of prices, and pasture land was dug up
Speaker 1: and planted with potatoes. Even the Pinkerton, who later investigated
Speaker 1: them and saw them hanged in the US, said that
Speaker 1: the eye Irish Molly Maguire's goal was to quote, to
Speaker 1: take from those who had abundance and give it to
Speaker 1: the poor.
Speaker 2: He described, Pinkerton is calling you Robin Hood. I mean,
Speaker 2: where are we at? I know?
Speaker 1: He described their tactics as quote. Their mode of operation
Speaker 1: was to have their leader dressed up in a suit
Speaker 1: of women's clothing to represent the Irish mother begging bread
Speaker 1: for her children. Under this disguise, the leader would be
Speaker 1: named Molly, would approach a storekeeper and quote demand the
Speaker 1: amount levied on him in the shape of me meal,
Speaker 1: flower and general groceries. If the storekeeper didn't give the
Speaker 1: Molly what she asked for, the rest of the Mollies
Speaker 1: would pour into the place and loot it and basically
Speaker 1: be like and if you tell the pigs, we'll come
Speaker 1: back and fuck you up again.
Speaker 2: Wait, so the sorry I just thought it. So the
Speaker 2: act would be preceded by community theater. Yeah, yeah, that's incredible,
Speaker 2: there's so there. They should I mean, we personally should
Speaker 2: bring that back because it's really hard to get people
Speaker 2: to engage with community theater. And that is incredible. That
Speaker 2: fucking rocks again. Yeah, irin the Irish are such drama
Speaker 2: queens in it unbelievable. I love it. Yeah. So is
Speaker 2: there there's one Molly mcg like one Molly who's performing
Speaker 2: and then everyone else is wearing their regular clothes or
Speaker 2: is it or is it a sea of Molly's.
Speaker 1: So as far as I can tell, because actually this
Speaker 1: tactic was across I'll talk about this a little bit
Speaker 1: more too. The tactic kind of was across the British
Speaker 1: isles at this point sometimes also, and and it was
Speaker 1: a mix. It's like, not everyone dresses up as a Molly,
Speaker 1: but a lot of people do. And so I'm guessing
Speaker 1: the crowd that storms it is a mix and this
Speaker 1: is just one of their tactics. Another tactics is they'll
Speaker 1: do like mid justice where they all maybe all of them,
Speaker 1: dress up as women and then go and like break
Speaker 1: into someone's house. And we'll talk about a cross dressing
Speaker 1: aspect in a minute. But it comes from Okay, Okay,
Speaker 1: we'll get to it. Okay. So there's a British guy
Speaker 1: with a surn his name Sir Thomas Larkham, who said
Speaker 1: at the time quote, they're in fact two codes of
Speaker 1: law enforcing an antagonism won the statute law enforced by
Speaker 1: judges and jurors in which the people do not yet trust,
Speaker 1: the other a secret law enforced by themselves. It's agents,
Speaker 1: the ribbon men, and the bullet. One tactic they supposedly did,
Speaker 1: and I absolutely think this is scare tactics, Like this
Speaker 1: is like newspaper bullshit, was that the mcguires would conceal
Speaker 1: needles in the grass so that the cows would eat
Speaker 1: them and die.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1: This sounds like people put HIV infected needles in the
Speaker 1: coin returns a lot of payphones.
Speaker 2: You know. Oh yeah, yeah, a classic.
Speaker 1: Yeah. They were shitty to animals, including cattle horns and
Speaker 1: hunting dogs owned by their enemies. They would kill and
Speaker 1: mutilate animals as a as a vengeance. Quite often the
Speaker 1: McGuire's had a pagan taste of their festivity. Noess, they're
Speaker 1: they're like theatricalness. There should be to violence spiked around
Speaker 1: the Celtic celebrations of Halloween and May Eve, possibly because
Speaker 1: folks were already dressing up in wild costumes. For those
Speaker 1: anyone who once I didn't I took this out of
Speaker 1: the script. It's for sake of time, but I'm going
Speaker 1: to like paraphrase it back in you should look up
Speaker 1: the Ren Boys and the Straw Boys and the May
Speaker 1: Boys of Ireland for like wild cool folk costume pagany
Speaker 1: amazing stuff and like weird masks and stuff.
Speaker 2: But in so, the the your working theory, oh the
Speaker 2: Ren Boys. Wow, Yes, I am co signed CO signed there.
Speaker 2: So So the the working theory is Halloween is a
Speaker 2: good time to go out because everyone's dressed up anyways.
Speaker 1: So I think it's like not like just that you're
Speaker 1: more disguised when you're I think it's like more like
Speaker 1: we're all worked up. You know, you come together for
Speaker 1: this community celebration and then you're like, you know, what
Speaker 1: fuck it, let's like go get some shit done. And
Speaker 1: then it also it'll tie into like some Mummer stuff
Speaker 1: that'll talk about in the second and so they return.
Speaker 1: Also tradition in the Molly McGuire's they didn't declare their
Speaker 1: loyalty to Sive the mythical woman that the white boys did,
Speaker 1: but instead they called themselves the children of Molly McGuire,
Speaker 1: who probably wasn't a real person, but that doesn't stop
Speaker 1: there for being myths about her. One is that a
Speaker 1: widow named Molly McGuire refused to be evicted and her
Speaker 1: house was destroyed on top of her.
Speaker 2: And she died, though.
Speaker 1: Another is that she'd just been evicted and like had
Speaker 1: been kicked out and people banded together to avenger. Other
Speaker 1: is that Molly McGuire owned an the legal bar where
Speaker 1: they all met to plan. The best, but probably least likely,
Speaker 1: is that there was a specific real woman named Molly
Speaker 1: McGuire who had pistols strapped each thigh like fucking tomb raider,
Speaker 1: who led the man on their nocturnal raids.
Speaker 2: Okay, so like Irish Annie Oakley vibes, that's kind of fine. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I just double checked because I was like am I
Speaker 2: remembering this incorrectly? I do. You will not be able
Speaker 2: to find her because we don't have the same last name.
Speaker 2: My grandma's maiden name is McGuire, my cousin's name is Molly,
Speaker 2: and her full name is Molly McGuire. Blank. I don't
Speaker 2: think my family knows about the Molly mcguires. And this
Speaker 2: is an incredible revelation. Oh my god, but I accidentally
Speaker 2: created I bet your grandmother true mcguires. I bet my
Speaker 2: grandmother did too, and she was probably like, yeah, let's
Speaker 2: name he this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, like.
Speaker 2: That's cool, that's I'm kind of I'm old about it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: because I'm I've got McGuire blood in me, so yeah,
Speaker 2: with Molly McGuire's real and she's you know, twenty six
Speaker 2: and lives in Massachusetts.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. All the women in my family are just
Speaker 1: named Margaret. There's so many Margarets. There's like multiple times
Speaker 1: where someone named Margaret marries a man whose sister's named
Speaker 1: Margaret and then they have a kid named Margaret. That
Speaker 1: that triangle of Margaret's has happened multiple times in the
Speaker 1: Irish side in my family tree, gorgeous.
Speaker 2: My grandparents' names were Patrick and Patricia. Hell yeah, they
Speaker 2: sound like cartoon twins. But yeah, they're simply married. People.
Speaker 3: Give me, is that is that how you picked the
Speaker 3: name Patricia from your boss Room's girls show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's where my grandma. Oh my gosh, I was
Speaker 2: like a stone cold bitch. I know, just like my grandma.
Speaker 3: Oh man, she's my heart, My heart is full.
Speaker 2: Did not know that pat loftis either of them big fans.
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, okay, so we're gonna talk about how they
Speaker 1: cross dressed. Oh yeah, we don't really know their reasons
Speaker 1: for this. They didn't tend to write things down. A
Speaker 1: lot of Irish speaking parts of Ireland at this point
Speaker 1: didn't have much of a written culture, and anthropologists will
Speaker 1: refer to this as it's not that they were illiterate,
Speaker 1: it's that they were part of a preliterate culture. They
Speaker 1: participated in a culture that developed complex ways of passing
Speaker 1: along information without reading and writing right, and so the
Speaker 1: only reason that this information is lost is because that
Speaker 1: was disrupted, partly by the colonization and heavily by the
Speaker 1: Catholic Church in the late part of the nineteenth century
Speaker 1: when they tried to romanize the Irish Catholics. This preliterate
Speaker 1: culture goes back as lease as far as the Druids,
Speaker 1: who passed things along through word of mouth intentionally, even
Speaker 1: though there was writing available to them. Right, Like, there
Speaker 1: is an Irish writing style called ogum, right, but it's
Speaker 1: not how they chose to pass along most information. So
Speaker 1: wearing dresses. So this is why we don't know a lot.
Speaker 1: I just want to like when I'm like, they didn't
Speaker 1: write things down, I'm like that because they were like
Speaker 1: too stupid or something.
Speaker 2: We don't have the tools. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So wearing dresses wasn't just about disguies. It partly
Speaker 1: was about the skies, but it was also it lented
Speaker 1: them a certain legitimacy, like a uniform, but like a
Speaker 1: mythical uniform, kind of a full costume you're putting on
Speaker 1: to become a character, so you're capable of doing more. Right,
Speaker 1: and it became the sons and daughters of Molly Maguire.
Speaker 1: They are also here's one of the messiest parts of
Speaker 1: this whole story. They're remembered for blackening their faces.
Speaker 2: Oh, for fuck's sake.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I spent way too long this week trying to
Speaker 1: sort out medieval and early modern early modern face blackening
Speaker 1: to understand how it relates to blackface and it relates
Speaker 1: to character caricaturizing other races and stuff. I still don't
Speaker 1: entirely know where I land whether or not this was
Speaker 1: like a form of black face, because there's a lot
Speaker 1: of different descriptions of it and wactually there's not a lot. Okay,
Speaker 1: most descriptions are just like they darken their faces and
Speaker 1: don't say more than that whether or not. I haven't
Speaker 1: found a source that says they painted their entire faces black,
Speaker 1: only a source that describes them as painting their faces
Speaker 1: with burned cork and then smearing it over their eyes, mouths,
Speaker 1: and cheek, which is as corpse paint. That is this
Speaker 1: particular time that is being described, right, is like what
Speaker 1: you imagine somebod who's into black metal wearing. But also
Speaker 1: many of them painted their faces white, and so it
Speaker 1: was costuming. But it probably also, I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: like entirely get them off the hook about this, it
Speaker 1: probably included costuming to represent oneself as having black skin,
Speaker 1: because this was a common mod medieval theatrical thing that
Speaker 1: people would paint their skin black, either if you're like
Speaker 1: doing Shakespeare or like representing a fellow you do it,
Speaker 1: and it's a white actor who paints their skin black, right,
Speaker 1: who does blackface? I don't want to like mince words
Speaker 1: about that. But also still racistly, a lot of medieval
Speaker 1: theater used painting your skin black to represent evil and
Speaker 1: being the devil, because in this particular theatrical tradition, the
Speaker 1: devil had his skin turned black by God for rebelling,
Speaker 1: which is racism. It's just a different form of it's direct.
Speaker 2: And that feels more like I don't I mean, we
Speaker 2: are still dealing with people doing black face today, but
Speaker 2: the but what you're talking about blackening your face and
Speaker 2: referring to badness like that is I think something that
Speaker 2: we have not culturally even started to discuss yet, because
Speaker 2: it's like then we're getting into juggalo territory like you
Speaker 2: were talking about.
Speaker 1: Ye I see, I see.
Speaker 2: Where you were going there. That's okay, that's well, that's ugly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I suspect that Molly mcguires are doing this. Their whole
Speaker 1: vibe seemed to be put on, like put on your
Speaker 1: war paint before you got and kill the people need killing, right, Sure.
Speaker 2: But I also don't think that you know, historically, I
Speaker 2: don't know. But also I wouldn't put it past predominantly
Speaker 2: you know, white country to be very very racist.
Speaker 1: Yep, even if the way they do that might be today,
Speaker 1: I'm the devil because I'm the same as a black person,
Speaker 1: entirely fucking possible. Yeah, or they were just fucking painting
Speaker 1: their eyes and lips, you know.
Speaker 2: And we don't know that's really because that's yeah, that's
Speaker 2: that's a meyer wow.
Speaker 1: And it also might originate from mummery, which was imported
Speaker 1: to Ireland by English and Scottish settlers in the seventeenth century,
Speaker 1: and mummers. It's this theatrical tradition where mummers would travel
Speaker 1: around on Midsummer in New Year's door to door and
Speaker 1: costume demanding food, money, and drink. We talk about some
Speaker 1: of this stuff in the Christmas episode, actually that we did,
Speaker 1: and they would wear outlandish costumes, bright clothes, and strange makeup,
Speaker 1: including blackface. This blackface was almost certainly blackface in a
Speaker 1: traditional sense in the bad way. You know. Well, I see, okay,
Speaker 1: even whatever, but you know what isn't problematic.
Speaker 2: Where I have a.
Speaker 3: Guess you can get you cannot safely say that, say
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Speaker 3: our ads.
Speaker 1: Yeah. If this, if the ads that follow are problematic,
Speaker 1: you can direct all complaints to our complaint department on
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Speaker 1: And we're back. So Ireland leads Europe in early modern
Speaker 1: history of men causing disturbances dressed up as women. The
Speaker 1: threshers we taught. We mentioned them briefly as like they
Speaker 1: went around enforcing Captain Thresher's laws. The peep o' day boys,
Speaker 1: the Lady Claire's, the Lady Rocks. These are all cross
Speaker 1: dressers too, okay, And allegiance to mythical women was like
Speaker 1: common in Irish culture as a sort of like source
Speaker 1: of power parishes and villages. A lot of residents would
Speaker 1: be like children of one mother within your community. And
Speaker 1: it wasn't just violence that called for wild costuming and
Speaker 1: cross dressing. It was part of a lot of medieval
Speaker 1: and pre medieval rituals. All over Europe, men were dressing
Speaker 1: women's clothes for ritual and festival, but in Ireland in
Speaker 1: particular is also associated with anti capitalist violence, and it
Speaker 1: lasted longer and more remote less quote civilized places like
Speaker 1: the Gale Tech the part of Ireland where Irish language
Speaker 1: and traditional culture lasted longer through colonization. One other kind
Speaker 1: of cool, weird, kind of sexist, kind of not side
Speaker 1: of why they would cross dress apparently, or like why
Speaker 1: what the symbolism of womanhood meant? Medieval society conflated womanhood
Speaker 1: with chaos and wildness and irrationality. Yeah, which is like
Speaker 1: not fair, but also like kind of cool.
Speaker 2: It's it's a fun language choice.
Speaker 3: I like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, over in England you have a similar thing going on.
Speaker 1: Future friends of the Pod the Luddites who were at war.
Speaker 1: People are like, oh, the Luddites, they were at war
Speaker 1: against technology. They like weren't They were against their way
Speaker 1: of life being destroyed by the early vestiges of capitalism,
Speaker 1: which included the mechanization.
Speaker 2: Didn't know the origin of that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're gonna do a whole episode about it. At
Speaker 1: some point they were like they were all losing their
Speaker 1: jobs to the automation of textile work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we should just say that when Grandpa can't
Speaker 2: use computer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. As compared to like Grandpa's way of life
Speaker 1: was destroyed by capitalism.
Speaker 2: Which I mean, can't two things be true at once true?
Speaker 1: And so the Bloodlights would also declare loyalty to a
Speaker 1: fictional person, in this case King Blood and cross Dress
Speaker 1: and go function up and in Wales. In the same
Speaker 1: time period as the Molly mcguires eighteen thirty nine eighteen
Speaker 1: forty three, you've got the Rebecca Riots, which were farmers
Speaker 1: protesting exploitive taxes, in particular tollgates. Apparently a lot of
Speaker 1: toll roads in fucking nineteenth century Whales.
Speaker 3: Okay, I fucking hate toll roads. I hate toll roads.
Speaker 1: I set mine to no tolls and then I drive
Speaker 1: so far out of my way to avoid.
Speaker 3: To make me forty five, make me irrationally angry. Yeah,
Speaker 3: like the first like we don't really have Like I
Speaker 3: grew up in Los Angeles and we don't really we
Speaker 3: don't have them. And then I remember there was like
Speaker 3: a family trip we went on where I went somewhere
Speaker 3: and they were so and it just like as a child,
Speaker 3: I aggressively it was like this is wrong.
Speaker 2: So I stand by childhood me fucked.
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, we're going to change your name to Rebecca Riot.
Speaker 2: Oh cool.
Speaker 1: I mean that's a way cooler name.
Speaker 2: Let's be honest, I'm into it. Kind of print it.
Speaker 2: We're done. I feel like the best thing that ever
Speaker 2: happened for Toll Roads is when John Goodman played a
Speaker 2: toll worker in Coyote Ugly. That was I've never seen
Speaker 2: it my that was my pro toll moment.
Speaker 3: That's a movie that I was like, Margaret does not
Speaker 3: know what that is, but I do.
Speaker 1: Know what it is. Oh okay, I don't think you
Speaker 1: would hate it.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think you would hate it. No, it's fun.
Speaker 2: It's a good summer movie. And John Goodman he's wrapping
Speaker 2: the tolls and he's not anti the tolls. He's kind
Speaker 2: of ambivalent about the tolls.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, but you know.
Speaker 3: I'm not I hate them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my whole heart.
Speaker 1: Well, they did this street theater, literally on the street
Speaker 1: right where they would walk up in a large gang,
Speaker 1: about half of them dressed as women. I also like
Speaker 1: some you know, I don't know if you knew this.
Speaker 1: Women are often written out of history. Huh. I'm willing
Speaker 1: to bet if there is a large violent group of
Speaker 1: men or a group of people all dressed up as
Speaker 1: women off to go fuck something up.
Speaker 2: I bet some of them are women.
Speaker 1: You don't even have to cross dressed to go to
Speaker 1: your violence if you're a woman.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, MagPi, you're talking fairy tales. Yes. It's
Speaker 2: like when I learned I recently learned we just did
Speaker 2: an episode on Newsies at the on the Bechdel Cast,
Speaker 2: and I love Newsies. I think it's the best. And
Speaker 2: I was like, were there really no women news there?
Speaker 2: Of course, there were so many.
Speaker 1: We just did an episodes too. That's cool.
Speaker 2: Really, Oh my god, synergy.
Speaker 1: I know, yeah, no, there was so many. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: did you run across that same thing where there was
Speaker 1: a person who put on a a version of the
Speaker 1: play Newsies and like everyone was like, why did you
Speaker 1: put women in this? Yes, and he was like, I
Speaker 1: did research.
Speaker 3: I know.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Literally, it's such an easy and I love I
Speaker 2: just love like when I was doing that research, so
Speaker 2: many places that directed me to primary sources were uh,
Speaker 2: Tumblr accounts that were horny for cast members of I'm
Speaker 2: just like, we've really underestimate it. Did the intellectual potency
Speaker 2: of the fangirl Yeah, totally. They've done so much for me.
Speaker 1: They're all librarians, and it's amazing.
Speaker 2: They really are.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well, if you like the street theater element,
Speaker 1: the Rebecca riots, they would go up to the toll gates.
Speaker 1: I actually should have I thought this through. I would
Speaker 1: have put in the script. You can find the script
Speaker 1: that they read in one of the books that I read.
Speaker 1: I don't remember which one on the top of my head.
Speaker 1: It's probably in the fucking or whatever. It's googleble Okay.
Speaker 1: So they would go up and they would do a
Speaker 1: call of call and response. Someone was dressed up as
Speaker 1: Rebecca or would take the role of Rebecca. And in
Speaker 1: this case it's a biblical reference that I don't I
Speaker 1: don't really get, but I know more about the fairies
Speaker 1: and guardian spirits. She's married Rebecca.
Speaker 2: Rebecca was married to who we oh God to embarrass myself,
Speaker 2: I know. But she had she had a baby, and
Speaker 2: she was theoretically, they're like, you're too old to have
Speaker 2: a baby, and then but then she had one.
Speaker 1: She put her career first, you know, exactly moderate pre
Speaker 1: modern Kathy. She was a girl boss. Yeah, and so
Speaker 1: the girl boss would do it would lead a call
Speaker 1: in response that was like and everyone's like the gate
Speaker 1: is keeping you Biblical Rebecca from crossing, then we must
Speaker 1: destroy it. And so street theater is best when it
Speaker 1: is also paired with direct action, and direct action is
Speaker 1: best when it's paired with theatrical elements. And while they
Speaker 1: did this, they all wore masks, and some of them
Speaker 1: blackened their faces. And I don't I don't know. I
Speaker 1: don't know what that means. And I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: get them off the hook by saying that. I spend
Speaker 1: a lot of time trying to figure out what it means.
Speaker 1: The oldest instance of I can find of this general
Speaker 1: collection of islands painting your face in a way that
Speaker 1: doesn't read well and then putting on a dress and
Speaker 1: fighting against commons enclosure was the Western Rising in England
Speaker 1: of sixteen twenty six to sixteen thirty two. Okay, so
Speaker 1: this goes back people like I don't know, there's some
Speaker 1: shit going on. I am convinced that's go ahead.
Speaker 2: Oh no, good, no, go ahead.
Speaker 1: I'm increasingly convinced that where the Left has gone wrong
Speaker 1: is that we stopped declaring loyalty to a mythical person
Speaker 1: and then wearing elaborate costumes and then going off to
Speaker 1: commit direct action at a scale that feels like war.
Speaker 1: But we should leave black face the fuck out of it.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I mean, that's the one thing I feel
Speaker 2: sure of. I'm like, has the Left not found a
Speaker 2: mythical person to latch onto yet?
Speaker 1: But they don't know it's mythic?
Speaker 2: We not that's true. I guess, yeah, I guess that's
Speaker 2: that's the complicated part. I really do. I love to
Speaker 2: think any time I see I mean, because unfortunately, and
Speaker 2: not to give anyone, you know, like early twenty tens PTSD,
Speaker 2: this does evoke a flash mob.
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally it does.
Speaker 2: And we were there and you didn't have to like it,
Speaker 2: but I do as someone who has been encouraged to
Speaker 2: join a flash mob and ultimately didn't. I like to
Speaker 2: think in each and everyone of these stagings, there was
Speaker 2: absolutely one person there who was giving it, who was
Speaker 2: not giving it one hundred percent even close was thirty
Speaker 2: percent of it was secretly like I cannot fucking believe
Speaker 2: there is not another way to accomplish.
Speaker 1: They're like, couldn't we loot the store without dressing up
Speaker 1: like this?
Speaker 2: It just rich wulmnty like it's They're like, no fucking
Speaker 2: way surely there's another way.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I just like to think of a grouchy Irish
Speaker 2: person being like, I have to learn to dance, yeah,
Speaker 2: to fight for my rights, And the answer is yes,
Speaker 2: you do. But I like to think of the few,
Speaker 2: the proud, the grouchy people who did not want to
Speaker 2: be in the righteous flash mob.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's the one person just shows up and surly
Speaker 1: in the back. It's just like, exact, when is it
Speaker 1: time to loot? So the molly maguires, who are ostensibly Catholics,
Speaker 1: not to just beat this. This is just going to
Speaker 1: come up a lot the conflict between them and the church.
Speaker 1: They had a tenuous relationship with the church. Some local
Speaker 1: clergy was on their side. In eighteen forty seven, Father
Speaker 1: Michael McDermott was accused of encouraging his followers to kill
Speaker 1: their landlord. He was accused of this because he did it.
Speaker 1: Uh huh, So based Father Michael McDermott. More often, they'd
Speaker 1: attack the church as well, because the church was overall
Speaker 1: just another economic exploiter of the poor, and because the
Speaker 1: church was trying to criminalize their behavior. Right in eighteen
Speaker 1: forty six, they trashed the pews of a church in
Speaker 1: County Rosscommon as one example that I found. And then
Speaker 1: in the mid nineteenth century, the Irish Catholic Church waged
Speaker 1: a devotional revolution trying to bring This is when they
Speaker 1: like romanized the Irish Church. They tried to bring the pagany,
Speaker 1: wild Irish into the proper flock. In the north and
Speaker 1: west of Ireland, only about twenty percent of the nominally
Speaker 1: Catholic folks actually went to Mass on any given Sunday
Speaker 1: before the famine. And so during this devotional revolution they
Speaker 1: went around and they fucked up all the traditional cultural stuff,
Speaker 1: including the Holy Wells, including like attacking like belief in
Speaker 1: fairies and curses and all that shit. And they really
Speaker 1: really hated the traditional Irish wake, which was a very
Speaker 1: raucous thing. And this is probably around the same time
Speaker 1: that the Catholic Church started fucking with keening, which is
Speaker 1: the traditional whaling of Irish women over the dead, which
Speaker 1: was almost completely wiped out by the time that audio
Speaker 1: technology became available. So we have like almost no actual
Speaker 1: knowledge of what fucking keening sounded like, this thing that
Speaker 1: survived fifteen hundred years of Christianity as like a traditional
Speaker 1: and whatever. I'm very mad at the church for.
Speaker 2: But it did. But are there we are you implying
Speaker 2: there are some that exist, like early recordings.
Speaker 1: There are some early recordings of people who had been
Speaker 1: taught keenan who were like not necessarily like the specific
Speaker 1: traditional keeners.
Speaker 2: This.
Speaker 1: I didn't research this for this episode. I researched this
Speaker 1: for about a song that my metal band put out
Speaker 1: a year ago that we hired a woman who studies
Speaker 1: traditional keening as best is able to record keening into
Speaker 1: it and it's called a malocked, which is a curse.
Speaker 1: There's a whole other thing that I got. There's a
Speaker 1: traditional Irish curse culture that a lot of it was
Speaker 1: ways to curse your landlord, and they are fucking intense,
Speaker 1: and it was like a lot of the ways actually
Speaker 1: that women were involved in class struggle was this like
Speaker 1: like you know that thing that in Ukraine early on
Speaker 1: in the invasion where like a woman walks up to
Speaker 1: a Russian soldier and says, here, put these seeds in
Speaker 1: your pocket so that something beautiful grows when you die
Speaker 1: and rot here.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: That's the kind of energy that like Irish women were
Speaker 1: bringing to class struggle.
Speaker 2: Oh beautiful, yeah, beautiful stuff. It's just it is a
Speaker 2: game of four DJs ya that they're playing at all times. Yeah, wonderful.
Speaker 1: And so these folk Catholics weren't necessarily actually Pagans. I'm
Speaker 1: calling them pagany in the sense, but they would have
Speaker 1: considered themselves devoutly Catholic. They just meant something very very
Speaker 1: different by it, so that the devotional the devotional revolution
Speaker 1: is something I'm very frustrated with and it impacts a
Speaker 1: lot of this. The molly Maguires who later went to
Speaker 1: the US, a lot of them came from the west
Speaker 1: coast of County Donegal, which is now the bit of
Speaker 1: the North of Ireland that isn't north in Ireland. It's
Speaker 1: the part that's still part of Ireland, right the northwest
Speaker 1: corner at this point. It's a real backwater, which meant
Speaker 1: that the traditional ways of life in the Irish language
Speaker 1: survived better there. The Irish speaking part of Ireland gets
Speaker 1: called the Geltech and it was sort of the arc
Speaker 1: that Irish culture was able to return from. And Donegal
Speaker 1: was a place that was majority Catholic, but not so
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly so is the South of Ireland. Instead, it was
Speaker 1: a place where an Irish speaking impoverished majority worked for
Speaker 1: an English speaking Protestant minority. And so the molly McGuire's, yeah,
Speaker 1: so there's more tension in a lot of this place,
Speaker 1: you know, right, And so the molly mcguires came to
Speaker 1: the US. Came from the western part of Donegal, which
Speaker 1: is a land of waste and bog and it is
Speaker 1: one of the poorest and most isolated parts of Ireland.
Speaker 1: In the eighteen hundreds, people in Donegal, a lot of
Speaker 1: them were like literally dirt poor. It was very common
Speaker 1: you'd have a cottage for a family, right, the animals
Speaker 1: would sleep in side on one half of the cottage
Speaker 1: and the entire family would sleep on loose hay on
Speaker 1: the other half. And this isn't because they are backwards.
Speaker 1: This is because they have been robbed over the course
Speaker 1: of the centuries.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: People had such rudimentary clothing that visitors were scandalized by
Speaker 1: the scantily clad women. This is another sign of their
Speaker 1: like wild pagan ways, which is like partly that they
Speaker 1: didn't have the same like cultural conventions around modesty, but
Speaker 1: partly is that they didn't have any fucking money, right.
Speaker 2: Right, which is like never included in the demonization of like, Yeah,
Speaker 2: first of all, who fucking cares? And second of all,
Speaker 2: there's no yeah, no context for why that's happening in
Speaker 2: the first place.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so they would grow food all year and
Speaker 1: then have to sell all of their food that wasn't potatoes.
Speaker 1: They would they would buy a calf on really really
Speaker 1: bad credit terms and then sell it when it was
Speaker 1: fully grown, barely able to cover the cost of buying
Speaker 1: the calf. But in some parts of the Northwest you
Speaker 1: had this medieval form of communal land holding called rundale,
Speaker 1: which had died out everywhere else or most everywhere else.
Speaker 1: And what it was is that the tenants, so they
Speaker 1: would collectively rent a fuck tone of land, right, a
Speaker 1: whole village would rent the village, and they would parcel
Speaker 1: it out amongst themselves fairly, not so that everyone ends
Speaker 1: up with the same It's not like they would like
Speaker 1: pool all their money, but instead they would pool all
Speaker 1: their wealth producing resources, so that everyone had an equal
Speaker 1: chance to produce wealth. So everyone had a bit of
Speaker 1: good land and a bit of shitty land. Everyone had
Speaker 1: a bit of pasture land, and everyone had a bit
Speaker 1: of like some rocks down by the ocean where you
Speaker 1: could get some seaweed and it was non contiguous, right,
Speaker 1: so you and folks work together to make sure that
Speaker 1: it was alloted fairly.
Speaker 2: Go ahead. Oh so, because you're given equitable chunks of
Speaker 2: land in terms of land quality as it were, that
Speaker 2: means that you have your bad chunk could be far
Speaker 2: away from your good chunk kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Yep, I see, Okay, it sounds kind of like a
Speaker 1: pain in the ass, but it it's.
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, but you probably have right and also like
Speaker 2: you would have to sort of I mean, yeah, ultimately
Speaker 2: a pain in the ass, but you would have to
Speaker 2: get to know more people and an ally with more
Speaker 2: people in that chunk of land between your your good
Speaker 2: bit and your bad bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And they would do the same with animals. They
Speaker 1: would like collectively own the animals and then care like
Speaker 1: sort of parcel them out so that everyone had like
Speaker 1: a shitty cow and a good cow or whatever. I
Speaker 1: don't think people and more than one cow, but like.
Speaker 2: Oh not their shitty cow. Wow. There's a Pixar movie, yeah,
Speaker 2: the picture cow. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And so this system is part of is included in
Speaker 1: what Marx calls primitive communism, which is actually just communism
Speaker 1: without the extra steps, like specifically, Marx believe that you
Speaker 1: had to be industrialized before you could become communism as
Speaker 1: a primitive communism, which clearly existed, like kind of fucked
Speaker 1: with his theory, so he denigrated it to Yeah, I
Speaker 1: deleted this whole rant about why angles was anti Irish
Speaker 1: out of the script and everyone can thank me. And
Speaker 1: and also animals were usually moved on May first and
Speaker 1: November first from different pieces of the land, right, which
Speaker 1: not coincidentally lines up with the Celtic holidays May Day
Speaker 1: and Halloween and the attendant to gray and violence against
Speaker 1: the landlords, which would peak on those nights spicy days. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Eventually owners break the run Dale system. They force everyone
Speaker 1: to be traditional tenants. And the way they do it,
Speaker 1: the way that the tenant the Rundale people, the way
Speaker 1: they fight that is they're like, all right, fine, everyone's
Speaker 1: land has to be contiguous. It's called squaring the land.
Speaker 1: And the way that they would do it is they're like,
Speaker 1: we still want everyone to have good land and shitty
Speaker 1: land because that's the traditional way we've been doing it
Speaker 1: for thousands of years. So they would have the contiguous
Speaker 1: land would be like three feet wide and like a
Speaker 1: mile long, so it would go across I think good
Speaker 1: parts and bad parts.
Speaker 2: Again just theater, yeah, great, love it.
Speaker 1: And then also during all of this, during the destruction
Speaker 1: of this way of life in County Donegal, they broke
Speaker 1: up the traditional Irish inheritance system, in which property was
Speaker 1: divided equally between all of the children rather than going
Speaker 1: to the eldest son. It's actually this change is why
Speaker 1: my great grandparents had to emmigray from County Galway, right
Speaker 1: because under the old system, everyone of every gender inherits equally.
Speaker 1: Under the new system, only the oldest son inherits. So
Speaker 1: if you are not a son, or you're not the oldest,
Speaker 1: you're fucked and you pretty much got to go to
Speaker 1: the US or somewhere else.
Speaker 2: And that's why we're here. What a treat.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then so this equal inheritance system was destroyed
Speaker 1: after the famine. Basically famine killed not just a fuck
Speaker 1: ton of the Irish, but it also killed a fuck
Speaker 1: ton of the Irish traditional communistic customs and religious culture.
Speaker 1: So Donegal was enclosed mostly for sheep farming. People fought
Speaker 1: against it. Lots of sheep went missing or found killed.
Speaker 1: But all of this gets blamed on Molly McGuire ism,
Speaker 1: and some of it probably was, but later people figured
Speaker 1: out that like the Scottish farmers were just like stealing
Speaker 1: the sheep and selling them themselves, you know, like they
Speaker 1: were like yeah and yeah, and everything just gets blamed
Speaker 1: on the Molly maguires. But the Molly McGuire's.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's like so that's so I don't know, historically
Speaker 2: frustrating that it's like we've well never know who did
Speaker 2: what because of whenever the predominant media culture at the
Speaker 2: time what they wanted us to think, I know.
Speaker 1: And it's like so hard to be like, damn it,
Speaker 1: how much did the Molly McGuire like everything got blamed
Speaker 1: on them? And it's hard because like in some ways
Speaker 1: therefore their actions like furthered a lot of you know,
Speaker 1: anti Irish sentiment and stuff like that, right, But also
Speaker 1: like I'm just fucking not mad at people who robinhood
Speaker 1: when they're starving to death, Like I'm pro it, right,
Speaker 1: there's a reason they're on my show, you know, Like.
Speaker 2: That is the show, is it not?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, But the molly McGuire's, they're not famous in
Speaker 1: the US for what they did in Ireland. They're famous
Speaker 1: for what they did in Pennsylvania, which involved lots of
Speaker 1: murder and arson and class war and weird unionism. And
Speaker 1: we'll talk about it on Wednesday.
Speaker 2: Cliffanger. Dun dun, duh. Oh god a Pennsylvania Cliffhanger.
Speaker 3: For some reason, I've heard about Pennsylvania more than I've
Speaker 3: heard about Pennsylvania in.
Speaker 2: Like years, just this week. Really, it's the big Pence
Speaker 2: a new week. I don't know why I hate Pennsylvania.
Speaker 2: That's annoying too. I love Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh's great, not just
Speaker 2: because they have the Catchup Museum.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly why I love.
Speaker 2: That's a big read. That's a big reason. It's a
Speaker 2: book reason I can't lie. But it's not the only reason.
Speaker 3: Fair fair Yeah, speaking of things that are loved. Jamie Loftus,
Speaker 3: do you have anything you want to plug?
Speaker 2: Wow? Thanks? I Yes, you should buy a book about
Speaker 2: hot dogs. It's the summer to do it. There's no
Speaker 2: way around it. Hot Dog Day is right around the corner.
Speaker 2: And don't think too hard about the implications of it,
Speaker 2: or do when you read my book Raw Dog, The
Speaker 2: Naked Truth about hot Dogs, anything you would ever want
Speaker 2: to know about hot dogs, except more things I've learned
Speaker 2: since and you can get that on a bookshop dot org,
Speaker 2: which will automatically route you to buy the book from
Speaker 2: your nearest independent bookstore. So do that and don't talk
Speaker 2: to me in the internet. I'm tired.
Speaker 1: I started a substack and if you want a newsletter
Speaker 1: where twice a month I send out a free thing
Speaker 1: to everyone that's like more about preparedness and history and
Speaker 1: all that stuff I talk about a lot. And then
Speaker 1: the other half is subscriber only and is like more
Speaker 1: personal and I'm writing memoir and a lot of other
Speaker 1: stuff there, and so you can support me or just
Speaker 1: read my stuff at just you're not going to type
Speaker 1: in the r oh, you're just going to google it,
Speaker 1: type in Margaret Kiljoy substack. And also I just did
Speaker 1: oh awesome. Also there's Sophie who has things to plug.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
Speaker 3: Listen to sad Oligork, which is a podcast on this
Speaker 3: very network, cool Zone Media. If you can finde it
Speaker 3: in on all the podcast apps. It's hosted by our
Speaker 3: friend Jkandrahan, who's the best. And for anything else at
Speaker 3: cool Zone Media. I'm still on the internet. You could
Speaker 3: find me. I'm not telling you how well.
Speaker 2: Let's see you on Wednesday. Bye Bye Bye.
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