1
00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:04,480
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. It's

2
00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:09,880
Speaker 1: a podcast about people who did stuff. I'm your host,

3
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:14,360
Speaker 1: Margaret Kildren, and with me today as my guest is

4
00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:19,600
Speaker 1: the only person who has written a book about hot dogs.

5
00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,840
Speaker 1: That is currently on my bedside table because I haven't

6
00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:23,440
Speaker 1: started it yet.

7
00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:27,760
Speaker 2: I loved this. I was wondering how that sentence was

8
00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,360
Speaker 2: going to end, and I'm very satisfied with where it landed.

9
00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 2: What a treat.

10
00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:37,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I'm excited to read it. It was waiting

11
00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:39,600
Speaker 1: for me when I came back from the trip. Although

12
00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:41,560
Speaker 1: now I was ended up like kind of sad because

13
00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:43,120
Speaker 1: I saw you on this trip and I didn't get

14
00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,120
Speaker 1: it signed. Which is the lesson that you should never

15
00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,559
Speaker 1: pre order books. That is the lesson that I.

16
00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:52,560
Speaker 2: Think that that's true. I will be carrying that lesson

17
00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:54,920
Speaker 2: into to sabotage everyone I know.

18
00:00:55,280 --> 00:00:58,680
Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, because if you pre order books, it helps

19
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,760
Speaker 1: people's careers amazing, like the fact that Jamie Loftus is

20
00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:03,400
Speaker 1: now a New York Times bestselling author.

21
00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:10,839
Speaker 2: It's the perfect crime. Magpie is complicit in this crime.

22
00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I just think it's cool and

23
00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:16,600
Speaker 1: you can put that on books from now on. And

24
00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:20,160
Speaker 1: people will be like hell yeah, and people can't give

25
00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,080
Speaker 1: you shit anymore, because if people give you shit, you

26
00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:23,360
Speaker 1: can be like, yeah, they.

27
00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,839
Speaker 2: Don't know it was only one week because of pre orders.

28
00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. It really is, like, Actually, why I push

29
00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:34,760
Speaker 1: preorders so hard with everything that I publish is that

30
00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:40,880
Speaker 1: totally it matters a lot. It's disproportionate. But the rest

31
00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,679
Speaker 1: of the credits. The other voice that you're hearing is

32
00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:46,000
Speaker 1: the one and only Sophie Lichtermann. Hi, Sophie, how are

33
00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:46,320
Speaker 1: you doing.

34
00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:49,080
Speaker 3: Hey, I'm good.

35
00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,760
Speaker 2: My friends are here. Yeah, it's a good day. It's

36
00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,840
Speaker 2: a good day. Yeah, friends are here. Dogs here.

37
00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:58,320
Speaker 3: I can see your dog, Magpie.

38
00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:02,840
Speaker 1: Good dog is sleeping on the floor behind my chair.

39
00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:05,640
Speaker 1: At some point he'll get up and run around and

40
00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,400
Speaker 1: have too much energy because it's too hot out, so

41
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,440
Speaker 1: he doesn't like spending all this time outside, so he's

42
00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:11,240
Speaker 1: too much energy.

43
00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:13,800
Speaker 3: I am sad to not be able to see flee

44
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:15,280
Speaker 3: Jamie's cat.

45
00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,440
Speaker 2: Me too. Boy, he's a good boy. He'll be he'll

46
00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:22,560
Speaker 2: be with me soon enough. But yeah, he's just been

47
00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:27,280
Speaker 2: really hating. He's he's a real hater of global warming,

48
00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,880
Speaker 2: more so than most people, because only only in selfish ways.

49
00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,240
Speaker 2: But he's just been sort of like climbing around my

50
00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,760
Speaker 2: dad's house, hissing at the general vibe.

51
00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:41,639
Speaker 1: Fair. You don't know what he gets up to at night.

52
00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,120
Speaker 1: He could be off trying to confront global warming in

53
00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:45,960
Speaker 1: a more direct way.

54
00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:51,160
Speaker 2: It's true he's doing direct action, but only at night. Yeah, yeah, exactly,

55
00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,119
Speaker 2: That's when the best direct action is done.

56
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,360
Speaker 1: That's often true, depending on the type of direct action

57
00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,800
Speaker 1: you want to do. Which are we talking about some today?

58
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,080
Speaker 1: But okay, wait, first, our audio editor is Ian. Everyone

59
00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:09,840
Speaker 1: say hi to Ian, including Ian Ian. Our theme music

60
00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,840
Speaker 1: was written for us by unwoman Jamie. You've ever heard

61
00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:14,840
Speaker 1: of Molly mcguires?

62
00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,360
Speaker 2: Ooh no, it just sounds like someone who's probably related

63
00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:20,640
Speaker 2: to me.

64
00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:25,639
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll find out my grandma.

65
00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,520
Speaker 2: My grandma's maiden name was McGuire, and she has so

66
00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,440
Speaker 2: many siblings that died, probably one was named Molly.

67
00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,280
Speaker 1: So Molly maguire herself was potentially fictitious and we'll talk

68
00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:38,680
Speaker 1: about that.

69
00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:40,680
Speaker 2: Oh exciting, Okay.

70
00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So this week we're going to talk about

71
00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:52,040
Speaker 1: what happens when owners drag strikes out indefinitely in order

72
00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:53,000
Speaker 1: to break a union.

73
00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:59,320
Speaker 2: Why we'd be talking about that. Okay, you know, seems random.

74
00:03:59,080 --> 00:04:02,839
Speaker 1: But I know, just completely random thing that's happening this week.

75
00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:03,880
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

76
00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:06,000
Speaker 1: We're going to start by going back to the eighteenth

77
00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,560
Speaker 1: and nineteenth century to talk about the long history of

78
00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:14,720
Speaker 1: collective retributive agrarian violence and secret societies in Ireland.

79
00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:20,320
Speaker 2: Ooh okay, I'm so excited for this. This is like

80
00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,440
Speaker 2: an algorithm chose for me. This is great.

81
00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I really lost myself in researching this one.

82
00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:33,360
Speaker 1: A lot of rabbit holes. This is great, And we'll

83
00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:35,440
Speaker 1: talk about how that came to a head and lives

84
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,680
Speaker 1: in the American imagination in the coal fields of northeastern Pennsylvania,

85
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,560
Speaker 1: where some Irish miners took it upon themselves to defend

86
00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:46,400
Speaker 1: their community and their way of life against their bosses

87
00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:49,400
Speaker 1: or depending on how you want to look at it,

88
00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,440
Speaker 1: they became just another shitty gang. But sixteen mine bosses

89
00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,880
Speaker 1: and cops and shit got murdered. Twenty irishmen ended up hanged,

90
00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:00,760
Speaker 1: all because they weren't allowed to union nies anymore.

91
00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:04,000
Speaker 2: Oh, for folk's sake, Okay, I did have to do

92
00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:11,560
Speaker 2: the standard brain check of uh not children, minors.

93
00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:17,400
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, okay, people who go into the minds actually

94
00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,720
Speaker 1: make it even more complicated. They're actually mostly mine laborers

95
00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,960
Speaker 1: and not minors, because minor was the specialized job and

96
00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,080
Speaker 1: mine laborers got paid a third as much money.

97
00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:31,720
Speaker 2: And oh, it's like animation writers and TV and live

98
00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,000
Speaker 2: action writers.

99
00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,480
Speaker 1: Interesting, there's no and with what's happening now, I don't

100
00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:37,440
Speaker 1: know what you're talking about.

101
00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,919
Speaker 2: Sorry, I'm just I'm I'm projecting everything is about me.

102
00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,560
Speaker 2: I thought you were I thought that sentence was going.

103
00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:46,920
Speaker 2: It's difficult to talk about because most of them are

104
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:51,800
Speaker 2: minor minors, which would be kind of I mean minor semantically,

105
00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,680
Speaker 2: but also you know, realistically, I'm glad it was it

106
00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:55,839
Speaker 2: is glad it didn't go that way.

107
00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:57,839
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean a lot of them are about

108
00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,720
Speaker 1: a third of them are children, some of the miners times.

109
00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:02,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

110
00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,120
Speaker 1: Although actually ironically, early on in the coal fields and

111
00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 1: we'll talk more about this in a little bit, early

112
00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,000
Speaker 1: on in the coal fields, there's actually better labor conditions

113
00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:12,719
Speaker 1: than later once it became more monopolized, and this group

114
00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:14,560
Speaker 1: is going to kind of span that difference. And for

115
00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,600
Speaker 1: a while children were actually not allowed to go into

116
00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,480
Speaker 1: the mines, but instead were shale breakers who hung out

117
00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,760
Speaker 1: on the surface and broke rocks all day. It's not great,

118
00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:26,680
Speaker 1: but it doesn't give you black. You got to wait

119
00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:29,160
Speaker 1: till you're like maybe sixteen before you can get cirketting

120
00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 1: black lung, which maybe today's characters die of.

121
00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:38,279
Speaker 2: Oh wow, okay, wow, this is so fast. I can't

122
00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,360
Speaker 2: even conceive of what story happening right now that this

123
00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:46,360
Speaker 2: could be a reflection of. But I'm also thinking about

124
00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,520
Speaker 2: because I just can't not think about hot dogs until

125
00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:53,160
Speaker 2: I die. Now about meatpacking too. I feel like I'm

126
00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:58,320
Speaker 2: going to have some meat packing symmetry here. I'm so

127
00:06:58,400 --> 00:06:59,440
Speaker 2: excited to hear about.

128
00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,360
Speaker 1: This because I will happen.

129
00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:05,680
Speaker 2: Also, it just it feels like an industry that has

130
00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,479
Speaker 2: gotten progressively worse as time goes on.

131
00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:11,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I learned that. Actually I learned that from you

132
00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,000
Speaker 1: reading an excerpt of your book. And if people like

133
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,360
Speaker 1: history about this kind of thing, I recommend Raw Dog

134
00:07:16,600 --> 00:07:20,440
Speaker 1: by Jamie Waltas. So this week we're going to talk

135
00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,320
Speaker 1: about the Molly Maguire's, which was a semi real secret

136
00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:26,840
Speaker 1: society of poor irishmen who declared their Lloyd loyalty to

137
00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,040
Speaker 1: a mythological woman. Broke out and broke out weapons, and

138
00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,360
Speaker 1: they did this in two countries, and to tell the

139
00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,760
Speaker 1: story that came to head in eighteen seventy seven. We

140
00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,000
Speaker 1: are of course going to go back across the ocean

141
00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,920
Speaker 1: to one hundred years earlier, to the mythical emerald land

142
00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,000
Speaker 1: of leprechauns and fairies called Ireland. There's this country, or

143
00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,960
Speaker 1: Ireland or whatever it's called Ireland. We've covered Irish stuff

144
00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:50,720
Speaker 1: a bunch of times on the show already. People should

145
00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:52,760
Speaker 1: check out when we talked about Roger Casement, the gay

146
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,000
Speaker 1: Irish knight who brought down King Leopold and was killed

147
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,280
Speaker 1: for trying to end English rule in Ireland, or Grace O'Malley,

148
00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,040
Speaker 1: the pirate Queen of the West Coast of Ireland, and

149
00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,760
Speaker 1: I talk more about the greater breadth of Irish history,

150
00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,200
Speaker 1: and I think those episodes and those actually weirdly bookend

151
00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:08,720
Speaker 1: what we're talking about. Grace O'Malley was before Roger Caseman's

152
00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:13,640
Speaker 1: after we're going to start in the eighteenth century. Ireland

153
00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:17,440
Speaker 1: was really fucking poor in the eighteenth century. It had

154
00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:22,400
Speaker 1: plenty of resources, but it was a colony, and colonies

155
00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,119
Speaker 1: are set up so that the Brits can extract your value.

156
00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:30,480
Speaker 2: Don't seem to really benefit from their many resources. Yeah.

157
00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:35,000
Speaker 1: No, Yeah, it was Britain's first colony. They famously went

158
00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:35,960
Speaker 1: on to have a few more.

159
00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:40,000
Speaker 2: You never forgot your first time, I know, I know.

160
00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,840
Speaker 1: That's the one that caught away. Fortunately most most of

161
00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:45,160
Speaker 1: them have gotten away at this point.

162
00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,880
Speaker 2: Wow. Really really horrific metaphor we're crafting here.

163
00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:54,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, in sixteen ninety five you get the Irish penal codes.

164
00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,679
Speaker 1: The Popoury Law of seventeen oh four basically said that

165
00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,920
Speaker 1: if you are Catholic. I know, if you're Catholic, you

166
00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:04,880
Speaker 1: can't have any land. You can't own any land on

167
00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:10,480
Speaker 1: your own island if you're Catholic, which, for anyone keeping track,

168
00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:15,240
Speaker 1: most of the indigenous people of Ireland were Catholic and

169
00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:20,080
Speaker 1: most of the settlers were Protestant. This is there's blurriness here,

170
00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,320
Speaker 1: and I'm not trying to make like grand generalizations, but

171
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,959
Speaker 1: that's a big part of all of this. I feel like, probably.

172
00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:29,000
Speaker 2: Funny if this is where you came out as extremely

173
00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:31,080
Speaker 2: pro Catholic, You're like, this is, as we all know,

174
00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,000
Speaker 2: a Catholic podcast, so.

175
00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:39,200
Speaker 1: Really upgrading. I mean, what's funny is that, like this

176
00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:41,920
Speaker 1: is actually an episode about exactly the part of Catholicism

177
00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:43,720
Speaker 1: I like, which is the Catholics who hate the Church.

178
00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:49,439
Speaker 2: Yes, that is a very powerful and underdiscussed area. I mean,

179
00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,920
Speaker 2: granted for good reason. But I don't know has anyone

180
00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:58,760
Speaker 2: else in this call been personally victimized by Catholicism.

181
00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,720
Speaker 1: I got really lucky in that I was technically raised

182
00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:05,240
Speaker 1: Catholic by someone who's effectively pagan and didn't make me

183
00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:07,520
Speaker 1: go to church. So I kind of got raised by

184
00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:09,559
Speaker 1: the kind of Catholics that we're talking about today.

185
00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:14,160
Speaker 2: Oh okay, so he won the Catholic lottery. Congratulations.

186
00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll take it you were not so lucky.

187
00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:23,520
Speaker 2: No, but there's certainly people who in my own home

188
00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:24,600
Speaker 2: state that had it worse.

189
00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:30,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough. So the Catholics are suddenly dispossessed. So

190
00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,120
Speaker 1: the Irish are no longer allowed to own land in Ireland,

191
00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,840
Speaker 1: and so people had been on this land for millennia

192
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:38,920
Speaker 1: and they suddenly found they didn't own the place anymore.

193
00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,520
Speaker 1: And it didn't help that traditional Brehen law, the pre

194
00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,760
Speaker 1: Christian law in Ireland that was still kind of going

195
00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,000
Speaker 1: a little bit at this point, didn't have the same

196
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,720
Speaker 1: conceptions of absolute landownership. So It's part of how they

197
00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:52,160
Speaker 1: showed and be like, you don't even like own this,

198
00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,360
Speaker 1: we can just like own it. You know, Ireland was

199
00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,439
Speaker 1: carved up by Protestant landowners, many of whom were British,

200
00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,000
Speaker 1: many of whom were Irish born descendants of the British,

201
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,160
Speaker 1: and it was carved up into these estates and suddenly

202
00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,959
Speaker 1: everyone owed rent. I don't know if you've ever been

203
00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,560
Speaker 1: personally victimized by rent, but it is another system of extraction,

204
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:11,280
Speaker 1: much like the.

205
00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:15,480
Speaker 2: Catholic Actually not currently, Margarete, because I just got evicted,

206
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:23,040
Speaker 2: so kind of slaying on a different.

207
00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:27,560
Speaker 3: Level, no fault of fiction. I also just to say,

208
00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:28,760
Speaker 3: not that it matters, but.

209
00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,319
Speaker 1: Yes, there's plenty of eviction related slain about to happen

210
00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:33,000
Speaker 1: in this story.

211
00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:34,560
Speaker 2: Yes, oh, I can't wait.

212
00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:41,200
Speaker 1: So suddenly your landlord is making money off of you.

213
00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,800
Speaker 1: It's even more egregious because of the family. Your family

214
00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,760
Speaker 1: had owned the place since time immemorial. And your landlord

215
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,439
Speaker 1: is some guy with a British accent, or even just

216
00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,240
Speaker 1: speaking English at all. Different parts of Ireland were and

217
00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:57,600
Speaker 1: weren't speaking English. And that guy, your landlord, doesn't even

218
00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,360
Speaker 1: live in the country, and he takes all of your wages,

219
00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,800
Speaker 1: the rent you pay, and he uses it to hire

220
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,480
Speaker 1: people to kill you and beat you up in this

221
00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:10,160
Speaker 1: case called colonial troops. More commonly understood now, is police

222
00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,400
Speaker 1: not really big ato capitalism or imperialism. As listeners the

223
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:16,640
Speaker 1: show might be aware.

224
00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,560
Speaker 2: Okay, see that's the pro catholic thing. I just wanted

225
00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:24,959
Speaker 2: to is bad that I needed that I knew.

226
00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:31,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the Irish in the seventeenth century, eighteenth century,

227
00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,040
Speaker 1: they're they're poor as fuck overall, and despite what British

228
00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,760
Speaker 1: newspapers claimed, they weren't stupid. They knew what was happening,

229
00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:40,720
Speaker 1: and no one has ever successfully claimed that the Irish

230
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,440
Speaker 1: are cowards. So they decided to do something about it.

231
00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,080
Speaker 1: There's a lot of ways that they decide to do

232
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,959
Speaker 1: something about it. Many of those ways involved like organizing

233
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,640
Speaker 1: and trying to have revolutions and shit, and those are great,

234
00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:53,600
Speaker 1: and we have talked about some of them, and we'll

235
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,040
Speaker 1: talk about more of them, but today that's not what

236
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,160
Speaker 1: we're talking about. Today. We're going to start with what's

237
00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:05,400
Speaker 1: called a very in violence. Good band name I know,

238
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,200
Speaker 1: and a better band name than what's about to happen,

239
00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,920
Speaker 1: which is it started in the way that nothing else

240
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:14,400
Speaker 1: good has ever started or ever will because it started

241
00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:15,679
Speaker 1: with the White Boys.

242
00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:19,520
Speaker 2: Oh horrible band name, the worst band name I can

243
00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:19,920
Speaker 2: think of.

244
00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,480
Speaker 1: There's so many unfortunate things in the back of this,

245
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,720
Speaker 1: in this story where I'm like, everything's really cool except

246
00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,480
Speaker 1: for this one part that really people should just try

247
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:31,960
Speaker 1: and copy.

248
00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,760
Speaker 2: We just need a second draft.

249
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's the real revision of history is we're

250
00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,800
Speaker 1: literally going to just change history, not change what we

251
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,079
Speaker 1: talk about, but we're going to go back in time

252
00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:45,839
Speaker 1: and be like, this isn't going to read good in

253
00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:46,840
Speaker 1: a couple hundred years.

254
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,199
Speaker 2: You won't believe. I mean, things are, we're doing great,

255
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,960
Speaker 2: but yeah, we just needed a name change.

256
00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you have all these tenant farmers, and I'm

257
00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:00,920
Speaker 1: going to conflate a whole lot of geography and like

258
00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,280
Speaker 1: an entire century into one overly convenient narrative. But landlords

259
00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,480
Speaker 1: weren't charging as much around as they possibly could overall, sorry,

260
00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,680
Speaker 1: were charging much money as much money as they possibly

261
00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:14,240
Speaker 1: could overall. The Anglican Church they're in on it too.

262
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,840
Speaker 1: They're charging tithes aka taxes on the land. So you

263
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,760
Speaker 1: have to pay tithes for a church for a Ford religion,

264
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,240
Speaker 1: as well as your taxes too, landlord. The landlords could

265
00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,920
Speaker 1: charge a ton for farming land, and they'd be like, well, look,

266
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:29,800
Speaker 1: we're charging you all this money for the farming land,

267
00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,160
Speaker 1: but you have all of the access to the commons.

268
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,360
Speaker 1: You have all of this access to grazing land, and

269
00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:38,040
Speaker 1: so it's fine, you'll be fine. It's going to be

270
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,440
Speaker 1: totally fine. The commons was this age old tradition of

271
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:43,880
Speaker 1: having a fuck ton of land that just kind of

272
00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,040
Speaker 1: belongs to everyone where you can like graze your animals

273
00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:47,880
Speaker 1: and harvest timber and shit. I'm going to come back

274
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:49,280
Speaker 1: to the White Boys, but first, do you want to

275
00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,120
Speaker 1: hear about how Ireland lost all its trees?

276
00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,000
Speaker 2: Oh? No, yeah, but yes, I do know, I.

277
00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:58,400
Speaker 1: Know it's kind of heartbreaking.

278
00:14:59,480 --> 00:14:59,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

279
00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,960
Speaker 1: In the BC, this is like.

280
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:09,160
Speaker 2: The Irish Loraxe story. Yeah, I mean is they're Irish

281
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:09,800
Speaker 2: law rats.

282
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,960
Speaker 1: It's like it's more like the lore Ax's children have

283
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:16,080
Speaker 1: come back for vengeance.

284
00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,680
Speaker 2: Ooh okay, I would watch this a twenty four movie

285
00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:20,680
Speaker 2: that rocks.

286
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,000
Speaker 1: Yeah. So Ireland used to be about eighty percent forested

287
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,360
Speaker 1: in the sort of BC times, and pre Christian Island

288
00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,880
Speaker 1: you had not pre Christian Ireland, you had Bretan law,

289
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,320
Speaker 1: which included cool shit like women can initiate divorce, which actually,

290
00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:36,680
Speaker 1: like when I talk about the like weird Catholic folk

291
00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:39,520
Speaker 1: Catholicism of Ireland, like I did an episode where it

292
00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:41,600
Speaker 1: talks about how like women in the sixteenth century who

293
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:47,160
Speaker 1: were ostensibly Catholic were divorcing their husbands because wild, because

294
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,680
Speaker 1: that was part of Irish Catholicism. Because Irish Catholic anyway,

295
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:52,640
Speaker 1: it wasn't Roman Catholicism. It's distinct.

296
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,680
Speaker 2: Don't tell current Irish Catholics. They will not take well

297
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:56,040
Speaker 2: to this.

298
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,640
Speaker 1: No, we'll even talk about how that happened in the

299
00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:01,760
Speaker 1: mid nineteenth century.

300
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:03,920
Speaker 2: Yay.

301
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,840
Speaker 1: So because Breton law survived. The Christianization of Ireland started

302
00:16:06,880 --> 00:16:10,720
Speaker 1: in the fourth century, and it didn't really start going

303
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,560
Speaker 1: away until the English, or rather the Normans first in

304
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,200
Speaker 1: the twelfth century. Brend Law survived longer in some places,

305
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,760
Speaker 1: which is how you have these Catholics getting divorced. Then

306
00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,520
Speaker 1: Henry the Eighth and Queen Elizabeth in the whatever century,

307
00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:28,120
Speaker 1: early modern, late Renaissance, whatever the fuck. I didn't write

308
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 1: down the years, and I don't remember off the top

309
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,480
Speaker 1: of my head because I read too many books. Henry

310
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,360
Speaker 1: the eighth and Queen Elizabeth were like, man, you know what,

311
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,080
Speaker 1: we hate the forest. We hate that the Irish have forests.

312
00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:45,200
Speaker 1: They specifically hated the forests because the Irish kept hiding

313
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,080
Speaker 1: in the forest to kill all the British people.

314
00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,400
Speaker 2: Oh okay, So it was not I mean, not that

315
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:52,520
Speaker 2: this makes it better, but I was like, is it

316
00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:55,440
Speaker 2: just a random like I woke up today and decided

317
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,720
Speaker 2: that I because it seems like imperial types do that

318
00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:00,640
Speaker 2: as well, where they're like, you know what, I'd like

319
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:02,320
Speaker 2: to destroy forever today?

320
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's like kind of a colonization itself,

321
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,040
Speaker 1: is like, yeah, what if I just go over there

322
00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:10,480
Speaker 1: and just destroy everything.

323
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:14,360
Speaker 2: I'm cranky today? What if I ruined thousands of people's

324
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:16,680
Speaker 2: lives generationally forever?

325
00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. They cut down all the forests and they turned

326
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:22,280
Speaker 1: it into boats, so they had like build an armada

327
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:27,000
Speaker 1: against Spain or whatever. By sixteen hundred Irish force, forests

328
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,280
Speaker 1: are down to twelve percent of the island and the

329
00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,040
Speaker 1: sixteen hundred is The English also started killing all the wolves,

330
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,720
Speaker 1: bastard alumni of the pod Oliver Cromwell paying a bounty

331
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:40,879
Speaker 1: to kill wolves. Historically, the Irish were like, really, into

332
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,399
Speaker 1: wolves and their enemies called them wolves a lot, and

333
00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:45,479
Speaker 1: so it was also there's like symbolism in killing all

334
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,760
Speaker 1: the wolves. By sixteen fifty six, there's only two percent

335
00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,280
Speaker 1: of the forest left, which is how it is now

336
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,960
Speaker 1: three hundred and fifty years later, there's still only two

337
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,000
Speaker 1: percent of the forest left in Ireland.

338
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,280
Speaker 2: Wow, there's been have there? Well, I mean this is

339
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,439
Speaker 2: out of the scope, but I'm curious if there's been

340
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:06,399
Speaker 2: reforestation efforts. I'm imagining there has been.

341
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:06,719
Speaker 3: Bit.

342
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,280
Speaker 1: I mean there are and actually a lot of this,

343
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,800
Speaker 1: this little chunk comes from I forgot to write down

344
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:14,280
Speaker 1: the name of a group, a group that is working

345
00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:15,360
Speaker 1: to reforest Ireland.

346
00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 2: Oh that's amazing, Okay, yeah, No.

347
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:22,360
Speaker 1: It's interesting because there is this whole movement to reclaim

348
00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:26,400
Speaker 1: a lot of traditional Irish values and culture and language,

349
00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,840
Speaker 1: and some of that includes reforesting and stuff like that.

350
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,520
Speaker 2: As the proud owner of a hat that says sci

351
00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:36,760
Speaker 2: Fi sluts for reforestation, I'm very in favor of this.

352
00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:38,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

353
00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

354
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,560
Speaker 1: By seventeen eighty six, the last wolf in Ireland was killed.

355
00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:44,040
Speaker 2: Wow.

356
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 1: When I was sixteen, I visited my family in Ireland

357
00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:49,359
Speaker 1: and I saw that they're like wornheady trees little and

358
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,000
Speaker 1: I like just cried and wrote a bunch of shitty

359
00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:51,719
Speaker 1: poetry about it.

360
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,679
Speaker 2: Anyway, I wish i've it is my one of my

361
00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,359
Speaker 2: great wishes. Well, my dad is still young enough to

362
00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,360
Speaker 2: sort of make the trip with me to go back

363
00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,720
Speaker 2: to his because his memories of Ireland they're very funny

364
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:10,280
Speaker 2: because it's like we're I think I'm third generation American

365
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:12,879
Speaker 2: and my dad used to have to go back to

366
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 2: the farm that his family is from in like the

367
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,639
Speaker 2: depths of Galway and work for the summer. And so

368
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,719
Speaker 2: every time I'm like, let's go to Galway together, and

369
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:28,159
Speaker 2: he's like boom no. But I was like, they they

370
00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:30,119
Speaker 2: can't make you work anymore. You're old.

371
00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:35,720
Speaker 1: Come on, I'm also third generation from Galway, so no way.

372
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:42,040
Speaker 2: Wow, which is cosmically connected. Maybe some of our ancestors

373
00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:43,760
Speaker 2: suffered on the same farmland.

374
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:50,879
Speaker 1: Yeah flat. At the same time, so Ireland has these

375
00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,480
Speaker 1: tenant farmers. They're told they can't access the commons, which

376
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:58,399
Speaker 1: was the justification for the high rents, and so the

377
00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,960
Speaker 1: enclosure movement happens, which is basically one of the worst

378
00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 1: things that's ever happened in all history, and actually pretty

379
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,440
Speaker 1: much capitalism comes out of it. And probably the reason

380
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,960
Speaker 1: that we're all going to drown and die of global

381
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:11,000
Speaker 1: warming is because of this thing that happened in England

382
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:13,000
Speaker 1: around this time and that they brought over to Ireland,

383
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,280
Speaker 1: which is they went around and they stole all the

384
00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,280
Speaker 1: communal land and created a new economic system based on that.

385
00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 1: The landlords, they are like, what if instead of letting

386
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,560
Speaker 1: peasants grace their livestock and grow food on all this

387
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 1: common lands, what if we just throw fences around it,

388
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,440
Speaker 1: arrest everyone who trespasses and steal their livestock and hold

389
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,840
Speaker 1: it for ransom and call it impoundment. So they do that,

390
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,400
Speaker 1: and this dispossesses not just the Catholics, but Catholics and Protestants.

391
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,840
Speaker 1: This is a class thing and not a religious thing,

392
00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:45,960
Speaker 1: a sectarian thing, I see. And in the eighteenth century

393
00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,600
Speaker 1: there actually wasn't as much sectarian conflict along class line

394
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 1: within class lines in Ireland. It was fairly united in

395
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,640
Speaker 1: the like fuck this attitude, and so you get what's

396
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,240
Speaker 1: called agrarian violence, the Irish reputation for being fighty. But

397
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,639
Speaker 1: it's usually perceived as like drunken angry men hitting each other,

398
00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 1: as Chile's But a grarian violence is not that it

399
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,440
Speaker 1: is class warfare against the rich, or rather self collective

400
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 1: self defense. Not all of it was good. Some of

401
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,640
Speaker 1: it was very good, and it started with the White boys.

402
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 2: Oh God, Magpie, you know the sentence that just came

403
00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,920
Speaker 2: out of your mind. I know, I know, all right,

404
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,440
Speaker 2: but I'm I'm I'm listening. Nonetheless, Yeah, there's so many

405
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:33,760
Speaker 2: complicated things. But before I tell you about the white.

406
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 1: Boys, why don't I tell you about It'd be really

407
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 1: awkward if potatoes was the sponsor today.

408
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, before before you talk about the white boys,

409
00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 2: let's toss the white boys a couple of bucks because

410
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 2: they make most products and services. Right, Yeah, that's a

411
00:21:55,359 --> 00:22:02,760
Speaker 2: really at least benefit from them. Woo, and we're back.

412
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 1: So the white Boys in this context is somewhere between

413
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 1: an organization, a secret society, and a tactic. Some groups

414
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,399
Speaker 1: formed and officially called themselves the White Boys. Others just

415
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:17,680
Speaker 1: used the tact tactic and it was basically all all

416
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 1: anti landlord violence that happened around this time was called

417
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,920
Speaker 1: white boyism, again, a label we will not be bringing back.

418
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 1: This was not about they wore white clothes when they

419
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,679
Speaker 1: did this stuff. They often wore white dresses. This was

420
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,439
Speaker 1: often men dressing as women, so irishmen would dress up

421
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 1: in white clothes, often dresses, pledge their allegiance to a

422
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 1: mythical woman or goddess named siv All Talk or Ghostly

423
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,719
Speaker 1: Sally in English, or to other mythical women named Johanna

424
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 1: Meskill or Sheila Meskill. And then they would go out

425
00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 1: in the middle of the night and threaten, beat, and

426
00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 1: assassinate landlords, bailiffs, land agents, tenants who moved into people's

427
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,359
Speaker 1: homes they had just been evicted from, and basically anyone

428
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: who went against I guess you could call it the

429
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,040
Speaker 1: people's law, and you got a lot of things. You've

430
00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 1: got community self defense. You could call it terrorism. There

431
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: are a lot of words for what they did. Most extensively,

432
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,360
Speaker 1: this happened in the northern, Middle and northern western parts

433
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,639
Speaker 1: of the country, especially in places where Irish culture was

434
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: being impacted most directly by colonial culture at that time.

435
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 1: Okay and the White Boys were explicitly non sectarian, but

436
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: meanwhile sectarianism and nationalism and revolution are brewing. It's something

437
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought through about Irish revolutionary movements and

438
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,919
Speaker 1: anti colonial movements is that, like you take countries that

439
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 1: are colonial forces, like the US or Rhodesia, who have

440
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: these like quote unquote revolutions where the colonists want to

441
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: be free from their home country, but they actually like

442
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: are still the settlers and controlling the economy and fucking

443
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 1: over the people who originally lived there, you know, right,

444
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,360
Speaker 1: And then you have actual anti colonial movements when indigenous

445
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 1: people want to be free. And Ireland had both, yes,

446
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 1: and they often worked together. Some people were like, I

447
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 1: don't like paying taxes anymore on the money that I

448
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: steal from all these poor people and other people. The

449
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,719
Speaker 1: Catholics were like, how come we're not equal? Fuck this

450
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 1: also fuck England. And they worked together and they wanted

451
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 1: a republic. Spoiler alert. They failed.

452
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 2: Oh well yeah that's so yeah, I need that.

453
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 1: But yeah, god, the world would be different. It would

454
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 1: be so different, no potato famine, no mass immigration. So

455
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: they managed to take part of the island as the

456
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: Irish Republic, only a small part of it, and it

457
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: lasted about twelve days. This was not incredibly successful. This

458
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: was sixteen ninety eight, seventeen ninety eight. Oh god, you

459
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 1: think I would have written it? Down in the Script

460
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: seventeen ninety eight. But part of the way that England

461
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 1: won is they did some divide and conquer shit. They

462
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: told all the Protestants in the North, hey, if you

463
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: turn your back on all the Catholics that you're fighting

464
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: alongside of, well forgive you for your little rebellion. People

465
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: took them up on it, and that's where a lot

466
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: of sectarianism comes from in Ireland. That is the start

467
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 1: of sectarian gangs of Protestants and Catholics murdering each other.

468
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

469
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:31,440
Speaker 1: And it wasn't perfect before that, but more and more

470
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: historians are coming around to them. The most of the

471
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: early struggle was not religiously sectarian, and it was a

472
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: class and anti colonial focused.

473
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 2: So the Secret Society talking about shit like that, people

474
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 2: hate that.

475
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: I know know what I would I keep reading all

476
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 1: these historians being like. One of the problems is that

477
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,840
Speaker 1: since Ireland kind of won its independence, everything got rewritten

478
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 1: to be about Irish nationalism, and specifically Irish Catholic nationalism,

479
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 1: and everything kind of got rewritten to be like the

480
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: Catholic Church is the heroes of all of this, and

481
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 1: they sort of used it to impose a theocratic state

482
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 1: for most of the twentieth century in the Ireland and

483
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: prevent people from controlling their bodies.

484
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 2: It's always I feel like you have a unique ability

485
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 2: to force me to hold two realities or the duration

486
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 2: of enough.

487
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 1: To say that the Catholics are oppressed and that the

488
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 1: Catholic Church was monstrous.

489
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, exactly the Catholic Church that has existed in

490
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: our lifetime and the one that you're talking about.

491
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally and okay. So the secret societies in

492
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: Ireland they split at this time too. The Protestants formed

493
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,199
Speaker 1: the Orange Order, who are still around in their right

494
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 1: wing pro England guys. And the Catholics absolutely without the

495
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: Church's blessing and against the Church's direct order because they're

496
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 1: Fault Catholics, not Roman Catholics. They formed their own new

497
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: groups called with all kinds of names, and the ones

498
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: that I've written down or founder the Threshers, the Lady Claires,

499
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: the Terry Alts, and the Ribbon Men.

500
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: These are roller derby teams and you know it.

501
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 1: Yes, and the Ribbon Men is all butch and it rules.

502
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 2: And I'm rooting for them fairoughly at inch and every

503
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 2: match except.

504
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: When they go against the Lady Claires who are all

505
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 1: trans women, and then.

506
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,440
Speaker 2: You're you're going back and forth. You're like, I can't

507
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 2: really lose in this scenario.

508
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, right, whence we win? Yeah, And so

509
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: all of these groups get conflated together. The most famous

510
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:45,480
Speaker 1: of these is the Ribbon Men, so I'm going to

511
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: follow their thread. They started as a group called the

512
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 1: Society of Ribbon Men, and they were an outgrowth of

513
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: the Defenders, which was a radical Republican Catholic sectarian group

514
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: who had been they were absorbed into the United Irish

515
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 1: prior to the Revolution of seventeen I So there had

516
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: been this group and then seventeen ninety eight came and failed,

517
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 1: and then the Society the Ribbon Men came out. But

518
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 1: they were radically Republican also even though they just but

519
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: they were specifically at the start anti clerical again, because

520
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: the Church was like, you can't do this, and they

521
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: were like, we're gonna anyway, right, And they got their

522
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: name because they wore a green ribbon in their buttonhole.

523
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: There were two main centers of the Ribbon Men between

524
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: eighteen twenty two and eighteen forty. One was in Dublin.

525
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: The other was in north central Ireland. In north central Ireland,

526
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 1: the Orange Order was very strong, and so there's a

527
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: lot of just like street fights. Some of the ribbon

528
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: Men's stuff was this going around at night and fucking

529
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: shit up. A lot of it was just getting into

530
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: street fights with the Protestant gangs.

531
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 2: Regardless, I think that the white boys could really take

532
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 2: take some hints, some tips from the ribbon men and

533
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 2: just you know, named themselves a little more vaguely. The

534
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 2: ribbon men could mean anything. I could be on their side.

535
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 2: I could not be on their side.

536
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. I don't want to be on the

537
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: White boys side, just instinctively.

538
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 2: I know. And then the fact that we are put

539
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: in this position, it seems very unfair.

540
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 1: Oh, it's gonna get worse. The Molly mcguires do some

541
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 1: stuff that we'll get to it, okay. So they spread

542
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: to the to England and Scotland as the Hiberian Funeral Society,

543
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: which is probably it almost certainly means this is a

544
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: fraternal order where people come together, like before people at

545
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: health insurance and stuff. You would join a fraternal order

546
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: like the Masons are example of this, and you would

547
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,240
Speaker 1: join a fraternal order and you pay your dues, and

548
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: then when you needed a funeral or a wedding or whatever,

549
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: it would pay for it.

550
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:42,840
Speaker 3: Right.

551
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,239
Speaker 1: So the Hiberian Funeral Society was almost certainly just like

552
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: the Irish people who need like work.

553
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: When you die, and then your boys throw you a funeral.

554
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, so your family can afford to see you

555
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: in the ground and stuff.

556
00:29:58,760 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 2: Right.

557
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: It sounds like, here's a society that's going to make

558
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: you need a funeral, and they come from a group

559
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: that absolutely made some people need funerals, so that's kind

560
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: of cool. In eighteen twenty five they had a split.

561
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 1: The majority formed Saint Patrick's Fraternal Society in order to

562
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: make the church happy, because the church was like, you

563
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: can't have secret societies, fuck you. But a bunch of

564
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,000
Speaker 1: them continued under the name Ribbon Men or now you

565
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: get the Molly mcguires, and this was an agrarian urban

566
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: split in some ways. The agrarian folks were like, nah,

567
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: I just want to fuck up landlords and be wild.

568
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: The urban folks were like, you know, let's develop this

569
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 1: into like a more of a nationalist thing for the

570
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: freedom of Ireland.

571
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: Whatever.

572
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: They're both fine, but following the ribbon men through this

573
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: particular and the Molly mcguires, what would they do? Basically

574
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: their motto was if you fuck with the peasants, will

575
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: fucking kill you.

576
00:30:55,400 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 2: Or I mean, no arguing, no arguing so far. But yeah,

577
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 2: but what are their methods?

578
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: So one of their main methods was what was called

579
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: a coffin notice, which is where you go up and

580
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: you put a threatening note on a door with a

581
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: picture of a coffin on it, and you're like, this

582
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:16,280
Speaker 1: is you, buddy, You're going to be living in this coffin.

583
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 2: So dramatic.

584
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 4: I love this Jack all right, alright, Jesus, I'm going

585
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 4: to quote from a coffin notice that was posted on

586
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 4: all the Catholic churches in one region in eighteen fifty

587
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 4: one to landlords, agents, bailiffs, grippers.

588
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: I have no idea what a gripper is. The Internet

589
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: won't tell me. Wait grip or ripper, gripper, Yeah, no idea.

590
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: Irish slang from eighteen fifty one is hard to fucking google,

591
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: especially when it's a word to me. I know, maybe

592
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: actually it's just a time traveling person from the current

593
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: strike and it's actually a key grip.

594
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: Oh, the best boys, the key grips. They're traveling through

595
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 2: time to be Molly Maguire's. Yeah, I would watch that

596
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 2: movie if we're allowed to make it.

597
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: To landlords, agents, bailiff's grippers, process servers, and usurpers or

598
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: underminers who wish to step into evicted tenant's property, and

599
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: to all others concerned and tyranny and oppression of the

600
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: poor on the Bath estate, take notice. Take notices in

601
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 1: all caps that you are hereby under the pain of

602
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: a certain punishment which will inevitably occur. Prohibited from evicting tenants,

603
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: executing decrees, serving process, distraining for rent, or going into

604
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: another's land, or to assist any tyrant landlord eight or

605
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: agent in his insatiable desire for depopulation. Recollect the fact

606
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: the fate of Maleveler on this his anniversary dated May

607
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: twenty third, eighteen fifty one. Maleveler was a magistrate or

608
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 1: a land agent, guy who found himself suddenly dead.

609
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 2: Okay, and not a cartoon dragon, which was my guess.

610
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, yeah, okay, okay, until we that we make it.

611
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, that absolute rocks. I would be a fan of

612
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 2: bringing back the Leveler as a cartoon dragon, and that

613
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: reminds me of like how there was this group of

614
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 2: middle school juggle lettes that I really wanted to be

615
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 2: accepted by and they would say shit that in that

616
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: kind of cadence, it's a very powerful cadence.

617
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

618
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: I actually think there's some juggle at there's some juggle

619
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 1: at energy going on with the Molly maguires. We're going

620
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: to talk about in terms of their fat and clothing

621
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: and questionable decisions.

622
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 2: They have a little outfits.

623
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: Oh, they have outfits, especially makeup and okay, so so

624
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 1: now random acts of violence and agrarian violence that are

625
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: which are collective violence. These are attributed to white boys

626
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,440
Speaker 1: and ribbon men alike, but not to be outdone onto

627
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 1: the stage of history stuff our main heroes and kind

628
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: of anti heroes a little, the Molly fuckings. There is

629
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 1: likely continuity between the Defenders, the ribbon men, and the

630
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: Molly mcguires. Almost everything we know about any of these

631
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 1: groups comes from people who hate them. It is mostly

632
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: the state trying to destroy them, who writes all of

633
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: the things that we have Besides some coffin notices and

634
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: one letter from like one hundred from decades later in Pennsylvania,

635
00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:28,479
Speaker 1: that we'll get to the in eighteen fifties, the ribbon

636
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:31,120
Speaker 1: Men and the mcguires are probably the same organization or

637
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: sort of non organization. It was a lot of kind

638
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: of like Antifa. It's like like sometimes there's organizations that

639
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,480
Speaker 1: call themselves it, but lots of people just do it

640
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: and call themselves it and use similar tactics.

641
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:49,919
Speaker 2: Okay, so it's historically is it hard to tease out

642
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 2: which is which it is?

643
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: And partly because a lot of it revolves around conspiracy

644
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: cases where the state wants to claim that everyone is

645
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: part of a formal organization and the newspapers.

646
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 2: Are sound familiar.

647
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: I know, it's very anti Factually, it's like all of

648
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: these people and in this case, all Irish people are

649
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: like drunk, evil terrorists who are lazy, and that's why

650
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: they go through incredible amounts of effort and risk their

651
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: lives to defend the land they're on. That's the symptom

652
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: of laziness. I've ever heard one.

653
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, extreme effort that could kill you.

654
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. So when the Irish were driven off of

655
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: land or enclosures were set up, the molly maguires would

656
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:33,440
Speaker 1: storm the place, tear down fences, drive off or mutilate

657
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: and kill livestock. This is one of their not great

658
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 1: moments from my point of view. You know, they're not

659
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: big animal rights people. Landlord agents were threatened, beaten, and killed.

660
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: Tenants who settled on evicted eviction land were treated the

661
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: same way. Merchants and millers were attacked if they charged

662
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,759
Speaker 1: too high of prices, and pasture land was dug up

663
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 1: and planted with potatoes. Even the Pinkerton, who later investigated

664
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: them and saw them hanged in the US, said that

665
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: the eye Irish Molly Maguire's goal was to quote, to

666
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: take from those who had abundance and give it to

667
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: the poor.

668
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 2: He described, Pinkerton is calling you Robin Hood. I mean,

669
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 2: where are we at? I know?

670
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,800
Speaker 1: He described their tactics as quote. Their mode of operation

671
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: was to have their leader dressed up in a suit

672
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: of women's clothing to represent the Irish mother begging bread

673
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: for her children. Under this disguise, the leader would be

674
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 1: named Molly, would approach a storekeeper and quote demand the

675
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: amount levied on him in the shape of me meal,

676
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: flower and general groceries. If the storekeeper didn't give the

677
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,520
Speaker 1: Molly what she asked for, the rest of the Mollies

678
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: would pour into the place and loot it and basically

679
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: be like and if you tell the pigs, we'll come

680
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:43,479
Speaker 1: back and fuck you up again.

681
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 2: Wait, so the sorry I just thought it. So the

682
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 2: act would be preceded by community theater. Yeah, yeah, that's incredible,

683
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 2: there's so there. They should I mean, we personally should

684
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 2: bring that back because it's really hard to get people

685
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: to engage with community theater. And that is incredible. That

686
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 2: fucking rocks again. Yeah, irin the Irish are such drama

687
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 2: queens in it unbelievable. I love it. Yeah. So is

688
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 2: there there's one Molly mcg like one Molly who's performing

689
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 2: and then everyone else is wearing their regular clothes or

690
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 2: is it or is it a sea of Molly's.

691
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 1: So as far as I can tell, because actually this

692
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 1: tactic was across I'll talk about this a little bit

693
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 1: more too. The tactic kind of was across the British

694
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 1: isles at this point sometimes also, and and it was

695
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 1: a mix. It's like, not everyone dresses up as a Molly,

696
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 1: but a lot of people do. And so I'm guessing

697
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 1: the crowd that storms it is a mix and this

698
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: is just one of their tactics. Another tactics is they'll

699
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 1: do like mid justice where they all maybe all of them,

700
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,000
Speaker 1: dress up as women and then go and like break

701
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: into someone's house. And we'll talk about a cross dressing

702
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 1: aspect in a minute. But it comes from Okay, Okay,

703
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: we'll get to it. Okay. So there's a British guy

704
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 1: with a surn his name Sir Thomas Larkham, who said

705
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,000
Speaker 1: at the time quote, they're in fact two codes of

706
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: law enforcing an antagonism won the statute law enforced by

707
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: judges and jurors in which the people do not yet trust,

708
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: the other a secret law enforced by themselves. It's agents,

709
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 1: the ribbon men, and the bullet. One tactic they supposedly did,

710
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,279
Speaker 1: and I absolutely think this is scare tactics, Like this

711
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: is like newspaper bullshit, was that the mcguires would conceal

712
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: needles in the grass so that the cows would eat

713
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: them and die.

714
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Okay, yeah.

715
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: This sounds like people put HIV infected needles in the

716
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 1: coin returns a lot of payphones.

717
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 2: You know. Oh yeah, yeah, a classic.

718
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. They were shitty to animals, including cattle horns and

719
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: hunting dogs owned by their enemies. They would kill and

720
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: mutilate animals as a as a vengeance. Quite often the

721
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,799
Speaker 1: McGuire's had a pagan taste of their festivity. Noess, they're

722
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: they're like theatricalness. There should be to violence spiked around

723
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:19,760
Speaker 1: the Celtic celebrations of Halloween and May Eve, possibly because

724
00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,239
Speaker 1: folks were already dressing up in wild costumes. For those

725
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: anyone who once I didn't I took this out of

726
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 1: the script. It's for sake of time, but I'm going

727
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: to like paraphrase it back in you should look up

728
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 1: the Ren Boys and the Straw Boys and the May

729
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: Boys of Ireland for like wild cool folk costume pagany

730
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: amazing stuff and like weird masks and stuff.

731
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 2: But in so, the the your working theory, oh the

732
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 2: Ren Boys. Wow, Yes, I am co signed CO signed there.

733
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: So So the the working theory is Halloween is a

734
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 2: good time to go out because everyone's dressed up anyways.

735
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 1: So I think it's like not like just that you're

736
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: more disguised when you're I think it's like more like

737
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 1: we're all worked up. You know, you come together for

738
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: this community celebration and then you're like, you know, what

739
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: fuck it, let's like go get some shit done. And

740
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 1: then it also it'll tie into like some Mummer stuff

741
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,240
Speaker 1: that'll talk about in the second and so they return.

742
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: Also tradition in the Molly McGuire's they didn't declare their

743
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 1: loyalty to Sive the mythical woman that the white boys did,

744
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 1: but instead they called themselves the children of Molly McGuire,

745
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: who probably wasn't a real person, but that doesn't stop

746
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: there for being myths about her. One is that a

747
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: widow named Molly McGuire refused to be evicted and her

748
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 1: house was destroyed on top of her.

749
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: And she died, though.

750
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,920
Speaker 1: Another is that she'd just been evicted and like had

751
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: been kicked out and people banded together to avenger. Other

752
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: is that Molly McGuire owned an the legal bar where

753
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 1: they all met to plan. The best, but probably least likely,

754
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:08,959
Speaker 1: is that there was a specific real woman named Molly

755
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 1: McGuire who had pistols strapped each thigh like fucking tomb raider,

756
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: who led the man on their nocturnal raids.

757
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 2: Okay, so like Irish Annie Oakley vibes, that's kind of fine. Yeah,

758
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 2: I just double checked because I was like am I

759
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 2: remembering this incorrectly? I do. You will not be able

760
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 2: to find her because we don't have the same last name.

761
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:34,440
Speaker 2: My grandma's maiden name is McGuire, my cousin's name is Molly,

762
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,839
Speaker 2: and her full name is Molly McGuire. Blank. I don't

763
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: think my family knows about the Molly mcguires. And this

764
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 2: is an incredible revelation. Oh my god, but I accidentally

765
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 2: created I bet your grandmother true mcguires. I bet my

766
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: grandmother did too, and she was probably like, yeah, let's

767
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 2: name he this.

768
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, like.

769
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 2: That's cool, that's I'm kind of I'm old about it. Yeah,

770
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 2: because I'm I've got McGuire blood in me, so yeah,

771
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 2: with Molly McGuire's real and she's you know, twenty six

772
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 2: and lives in Massachusetts.

773
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. All the women in my family are just

774
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: named Margaret. There's so many Margarets. There's like multiple times

775
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: where someone named Margaret marries a man whose sister's named

776
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: Margaret and then they have a kid named Margaret. That

777
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: that triangle of Margaret's has happened multiple times in the

778
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: Irish side in my family tree, gorgeous.

779
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 2: My grandparents' names were Patrick and Patricia. Hell yeah, they

780
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 2: sound like cartoon twins. But yeah, they're simply married. People.

781
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 3: Give me, is that is that how you picked the

782
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 3: name Patricia from your boss Room's girls show.

783
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's where my grandma. Oh my gosh, I was

784
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 2: like a stone cold bitch. I know, just like my grandma.

785
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 3: Oh man, she's my heart, My heart is full.

786
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 2: Did not know that pat loftis either of them big fans.

787
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:06,480
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, okay, so we're gonna talk about how they

788
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: cross dressed. Oh yeah, we don't really know their reasons

789
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: for this. They didn't tend to write things down. A

790
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:15,919
Speaker 1: lot of Irish speaking parts of Ireland at this point

791
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 1: didn't have much of a written culture, and anthropologists will

792
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 1: refer to this as it's not that they were illiterate,

793
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 1: it's that they were part of a preliterate culture. They

794
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 1: participated in a culture that developed complex ways of passing

795
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: along information without reading and writing right, and so the

796
00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: only reason that this information is lost is because that

797
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: was disrupted, partly by the colonization and heavily by the

798
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: Catholic Church in the late part of the nineteenth century

799
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: when they tried to romanize the Irish Catholics. This preliterate

800
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: culture goes back as lease as far as the Druids,

801
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 1: who passed things along through word of mouth intentionally, even

802
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: though there was writing available to them. Right, Like, there

803
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 1: is an Irish writing style called ogum, right, but it's

804
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 1: not how they chose to pass along most information. So

805
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,359
Speaker 1: wearing dresses. So this is why we don't know a lot.

806
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:04,359
Speaker 1: I just want to like when I'm like, they didn't

807
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: write things down, I'm like that because they were like

808
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: too stupid or something.

809
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 2: We don't have the tools. Yeah.

810
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:14,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, So wearing dresses wasn't just about disguies. It partly

811
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 1: was about the skies, but it was also it lented

812
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: them a certain legitimacy, like a uniform, but like a

813
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: mythical uniform, kind of a full costume you're putting on

814
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 1: to become a character, so you're capable of doing more. Right,

815
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,320
Speaker 1: and it became the sons and daughters of Molly Maguire.

816
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,279
Speaker 1: They are also here's one of the messiest parts of

817
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: this whole story. They're remembered for blackening their faces.

818
00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:40,800
Speaker 2: Oh, for fuck's sake.

819
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I spent way too long this week trying to

820
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,920
Speaker 1: sort out medieval and early modern early modern face blackening

821
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: to understand how it relates to blackface and it relates

822
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 1: to character caricaturizing other races and stuff. I still don't

823
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: entirely know where I land whether or not this was

824
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: like a form of black face, because there's a lot

825
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: of different descriptions of it and wactually there's not a lot. Okay,

826
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 1: most descriptions are just like they darken their faces and

827
00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:18,320
Speaker 1: don't say more than that whether or not. I haven't

828
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,720
Speaker 1: found a source that says they painted their entire faces black,

829
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: only a source that describes them as painting their faces

830
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 1: with burned cork and then smearing it over their eyes, mouths,

831
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: and cheek, which is as corpse paint. That is this

832
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: particular time that is being described, right, is like what

833
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:40,720
Speaker 1: you imagine somebod who's into black metal wearing. But also

834
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 1: many of them painted their faces white, and so it

835
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 1: was costuming. But it probably also, I'm not trying to

836
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 1: like entirely get them off the hook about this, it

837
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: probably included costuming to represent oneself as having black skin,

838
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 1: because this was a common mod medieval theatrical thing that

839
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 1: people would paint their skin black, either if you're like

840
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: doing Shakespeare or like representing a fellow you do it,

841
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: and it's a white actor who paints their skin black, right,

842
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: who does blackface? I don't want to like mince words

843
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 1: about that. But also still racistly, a lot of medieval

844
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: theater used painting your skin black to represent evil and

845
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: being the devil, because in this particular theatrical tradition, the

846
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 1: devil had his skin turned black by God for rebelling,

847
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: which is racism. It's just a different form of it's direct.

848
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 2: And that feels more like I don't I mean, we

849
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 2: are still dealing with people doing black face today, but

850
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:43,600
Speaker 2: the but what you're talking about blackening your face and

851
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 2: referring to badness like that is I think something that

852
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: we have not culturally even started to discuss yet, because

853
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 2: it's like then we're getting into juggalo territory like you

854
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 2: were talking about.

855
00:46:56,920 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: Ye I see, I see.

856
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:06,800
Speaker 2: Where you were going there. That's okay, that's well, that's ugly. Yeah.

857
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: I suspect that Molly mcguires are doing this. Their whole

858
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 1: vibe seemed to be put on, like put on your

859
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: war paint before you got and kill the people need killing, right, Sure.

860
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 2: But I also don't think that you know, historically, I

861
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 2: don't know. But also I wouldn't put it past predominantly

862
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: you know, white country to be very very racist.

863
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: Yep, even if the way they do that might be today,

864
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: I'm the devil because I'm the same as a black person,

865
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 1: entirely fucking possible. Yeah, or they were just fucking painting

866
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:40,520
Speaker 1: their eyes and lips, you know.

867
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 2: And we don't know that's really because that's yeah, that's

868
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 2: that's a meyer wow.

869
00:47:46,719 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: And it also might originate from mummery, which was imported

870
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 1: to Ireland by English and Scottish settlers in the seventeenth century,

871
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: and mummers. It's this theatrical tradition where mummers would travel

872
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 1: around on Midsummer in New Year's door to door and

873
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 1: costume demanding food, money, and drink. We talk about some

874
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: of this stuff in the Christmas episode, actually that we did,

875
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,440
Speaker 1: and they would wear outlandish costumes, bright clothes, and strange makeup,

876
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 1: including blackface. This blackface was almost certainly blackface in a

877
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:23,240
Speaker 1: traditional sense in the bad way. You know. Well, I see, okay,

878
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: even whatever, but you know what isn't problematic.

879
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 2: Where I have a.

880
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 3: Guess you can get you cannot safely say that, say

881
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:37,919
Speaker 3: that you couldnot safely say, right, we do not pick

882
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:38,560
Speaker 3: our ads.

883
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. If this, if the ads that follow are problematic,

884
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 1: you can direct all complaints to our complaint department on

885
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: Twitter at I write okay, and he will get back to.

886
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 2: You in a timely fashion and politely and discreetly.

887
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:56,560
Speaker 1: Yes.

888
00:48:56,640 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 2: Yes, here's some ads.

889
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 1: And we're back. So Ireland leads Europe in early modern

890
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 1: history of men causing disturbances dressed up as women. The

891
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 1: threshers we taught. We mentioned them briefly as like they

892
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: went around enforcing Captain Thresher's laws. The peep o' day boys,

893
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: the Lady Claire's, the Lady Rocks. These are all cross

894
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:30,840
Speaker 1: dressers too, okay, And allegiance to mythical women was like

895
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: common in Irish culture as a sort of like source

896
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: of power parishes and villages. A lot of residents would

897
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 1: be like children of one mother within your community. And

898
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 1: it wasn't just violence that called for wild costuming and

899
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 1: cross dressing. It was part of a lot of medieval

900
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: and pre medieval rituals. All over Europe, men were dressing

901
00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: women's clothes for ritual and festival, but in Ireland in

902
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:56,040
Speaker 1: particular is also associated with anti capitalist violence, and it

903
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,799
Speaker 1: lasted longer and more remote less quote civilized places like

904
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:04,240
Speaker 1: the Gale Tech the part of Ireland where Irish language

905
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: and traditional culture lasted longer through colonization. One other kind

906
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: of cool, weird, kind of sexist, kind of not side

907
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 1: of why they would cross dress apparently, or like why

908
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 1: what the symbolism of womanhood meant? Medieval society conflated womanhood

909
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 1: with chaos and wildness and irrationality. Yeah, which is like

910
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: not fair, but also like kind of cool.

911
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 2: It's it's a fun language choice.

912
00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 3: I like.

913
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, over in England you have a similar thing going on.

914
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: Future friends of the Pod the Luddites who were at war.

915
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,279
Speaker 1: People are like, oh, the Luddites, they were at war

916
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,600
Speaker 1: against technology. They like weren't They were against their way

917
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,000
Speaker 1: of life being destroyed by the early vestiges of capitalism,

918
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 1: which included the mechanization.

919
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 2: Didn't know the origin of that.

920
00:50:57,160 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're gonna do a whole episode about it. At

921
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: some point they were like they were all losing their

922
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:05,359
Speaker 1: jobs to the automation of textile work.

923
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, but we should just say that when Grandpa can't

924
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:11,240
Speaker 2: use computer.

925
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. As compared to like Grandpa's way of life

926
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,880
Speaker 1: was destroyed by capitalism.

927
00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 2: Which I mean, can't two things be true at once true?

928
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:26,000
Speaker 1: And so the Bloodlights would also declare loyalty to a

929
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: fictional person, in this case King Blood and cross Dress

930
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,919
Speaker 1: and go function up and in Wales. In the same

931
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,760
Speaker 1: time period as the Molly mcguires eighteen thirty nine eighteen

932
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 1: forty three, you've got the Rebecca Riots, which were farmers

933
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 1: protesting exploitive taxes, in particular tollgates. Apparently a lot of

934
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 1: toll roads in fucking nineteenth century Whales.

935
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:53,160
Speaker 3: Okay, I fucking hate toll roads. I hate toll roads.

936
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 1: I set mine to no tolls and then I drive

937
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: so far out of my way to avoid.

938
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:02,520
Speaker 3: To make me forty five, make me irrationally angry. Yeah,

939
00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,719
Speaker 3: like the first like we don't really have Like I

940
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 3: grew up in Los Angeles and we don't really we

941
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 3: don't have them. And then I remember there was like

942
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,640
Speaker 3: a family trip we went on where I went somewhere

943
00:52:12,680 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 3: and they were so and it just like as a child,

944
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 3: I aggressively it was like this is wrong.

945
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 2: So I stand by childhood me fucked.

946
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, we're going to change your name to Rebecca Riot.

947
00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 2: Oh cool.

948
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 1: I mean that's a way cooler name.

949
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 2: Let's be honest, I'm into it. Kind of print it.

950
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 2: We're done. I feel like the best thing that ever

951
00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:41,600
Speaker 2: happened for Toll Roads is when John Goodman played a

952
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 2: toll worker in Coyote Ugly. That was I've never seen

953
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 2: it my that was my pro toll moment.

954
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 3: That's a movie that I was like, Margaret does not

955
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 3: know what that is, but I do.

956
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: Know what it is. Oh okay, I don't think you

957
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:56,719
Speaker 1: would hate it.

958
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 2: No, I don't think you would hate it. No, it's fun.

959
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:04,920
Speaker 2: It's a good summer movie. And John Goodman he's wrapping

960
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 2: the tolls and he's not anti the tolls. He's kind

961
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 2: of ambivalent about the tolls.

962
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:11,719
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, but you know.

963
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 3: I'm not I hate them.

964
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, my whole heart.

965
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: Well, they did this street theater, literally on the street

966
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 1: right where they would walk up in a large gang,

967
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 1: about half of them dressed as women. I also like

968
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 1: some you know, I don't know if you knew this.

969
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 1: Women are often written out of history. Huh. I'm willing

970
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 1: to bet if there is a large violent group of

971
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: men or a group of people all dressed up as

972
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 1: women off to go fuck something up.

973
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 2: I bet some of them are women.

974
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 1: You don't even have to cross dressed to go to

975
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 1: your violence if you're a woman.

976
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 2: No, no, no, MagPi, you're talking fairy tales. Yes. It's

977
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 2: like when I learned I recently learned we just did

978
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 2: an episode on Newsies at the on the Bechdel Cast,

979
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:13,279
Speaker 2: and I love Newsies. I think it's the best. And

980
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:17,400
Speaker 2: I was like, were there really no women news there?

981
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:19,399
Speaker 2: Of course, there were so many.

982
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:21,959
Speaker 1: We just did an episodes too. That's cool.

983
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 2: Really, Oh my god, synergy.

984
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:28,839
Speaker 1: I know, yeah, no, there was so many. Yeah. And

985
00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 1: did you run across that same thing where there was

986
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,160
Speaker 1: a person who put on a a version of the

987
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 1: play Newsies and like everyone was like, why did you

988
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,160
Speaker 1: put women in this? Yes, and he was like, I

989
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:38,880
Speaker 1: did research.

990
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 3: I know.

991
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. Literally, it's such an easy and I love I

992
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 2: just love like when I was doing that research, so

993
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 2: many places that directed me to primary sources were uh,

994
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 2: Tumblr accounts that were horny for cast members of I'm

995
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 2: just like, we've really underestimate it. Did the intellectual potency

996
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 2: of the fangirl Yeah, totally. They've done so much for me.

997
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 1: They're all librarians, and it's amazing.

998
00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 2: They really are.

999
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, well, if you like the street theater element,

1000
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 1: the Rebecca riots, they would go up to the toll gates.

1001
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:18,359
Speaker 1: I actually should have I thought this through. I would

1002
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 1: have put in the script. You can find the script

1003
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,879
Speaker 1: that they read in one of the books that I read.

1004
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: I don't remember which one on the top of my head.

1005
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 1: It's probably in the fucking or whatever. It's googleble Okay.

1006
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 1: So they would go up and they would do a

1007
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:32,880
Speaker 1: call of call and response. Someone was dressed up as

1008
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 1: Rebecca or would take the role of Rebecca. And in

1009
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:41,440
Speaker 1: this case it's a biblical reference that I don't I

1010
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 1: don't really get, but I know more about the fairies

1011
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:50,720
Speaker 1: and guardian spirits. She's married Rebecca.

1012
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:56,320
Speaker 2: Rebecca was married to who we oh God to embarrass myself,

1013
00:55:56,440 --> 00:56:00,120
Speaker 2: I know. But she had she had a baby, and

1014
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:03,799
Speaker 2: she was theoretically, they're like, you're too old to have

1015
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,399
Speaker 2: a baby, and then but then she had one.

1016
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:12,440
Speaker 1: She put her career first, you know, exactly moderate pre

1017
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 1: modern Kathy. She was a girl boss. Yeah, and so

1018
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 1: the girl boss would do it would lead a call

1019
00:56:19,360 --> 00:56:23,280
Speaker 1: in response that was like and everyone's like the gate

1020
00:56:23,440 --> 00:56:27,439
Speaker 1: is keeping you Biblical Rebecca from crossing, then we must

1021
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: destroy it. And so street theater is best when it

1022
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 1: is also paired with direct action, and direct action is

1023
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:41,319
Speaker 1: best when it's paired with theatrical elements. And while they

1024
00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: did this, they all wore masks, and some of them

1025
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 1: blackened their faces. And I don't I don't know. I

1026
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:50,920
Speaker 1: don't know what that means. And I'm not trying to

1027
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 1: get them off the hook by saying that. I spend

1028
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 1: a lot of time trying to figure out what it means.

1029
00:56:55,239 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 1: The oldest instance of I can find of this general

1030
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 1: collection of islands painting your face in a way that

1031
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 1: doesn't read well and then putting on a dress and

1032
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 1: fighting against commons enclosure was the Western Rising in England

1033
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:11,319
Speaker 1: of sixteen twenty six to sixteen thirty two. Okay, so

1034
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:15,799
Speaker 1: this goes back people like I don't know, there's some

1035
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 1: shit going on. I am convinced that's go ahead.

1036
00:57:19,680 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 2: Oh no, good, no, go ahead.

1037
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:23,439
Speaker 1: I'm increasingly convinced that where the Left has gone wrong

1038
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 1: is that we stopped declaring loyalty to a mythical person

1039
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 1: and then wearing elaborate costumes and then going off to

1040
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 1: commit direct action at a scale that feels like war.

1041
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 1: But we should leave black face the fuck out of it.

1042
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I mean, that's the one thing I feel

1043
00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 2: sure of. I'm like, has the Left not found a

1044
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 2: mythical person to latch onto yet?

1045
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 1: But they don't know it's mythic?

1046
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 2: We not that's true. I guess, yeah, I guess that's

1047
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 2: that's the complicated part. I really do. I love to

1048
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 2: think any time I see I mean, because unfortunately, and

1049
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:59,480
Speaker 2: not to give anyone, you know, like early twenty tens PTSD,

1050
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,439
Speaker 2: this does evoke a flash mob.

1051
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally it does.

1052
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 2: And we were there and you didn't have to like it,

1053
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 2: but I do as someone who has been encouraged to

1054
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 2: join a flash mob and ultimately didn't. I like to

1055
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 2: think in each and everyone of these stagings, there was

1056
00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:24,240
Speaker 2: absolutely one person there who was giving it, who was

1057
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 2: not giving it one hundred percent even close was thirty

1058
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 2: percent of it was secretly like I cannot fucking believe

1059
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 2: there is not another way to accomplish.

1060
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: They're like, couldn't we loot the store without dressing up

1061
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 1: like this?

1062
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 2: It just rich wulmnty like it's They're like, no fucking

1063
00:58:44,600 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 2: way surely there's another way.

1064
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1065
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 2: And I just like to think of a grouchy Irish

1066
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:55,640
Speaker 2: person being like, I have to learn to dance, yeah,

1067
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 2: to fight for my rights, And the answer is yes,

1068
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 2: you do. But I like to think of the few,

1069
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:05,280
Speaker 2: the proud, the grouchy people who did not want to

1070
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 2: be in the righteous flash mob.

1071
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's the one person just shows up and surly

1072
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:13,800
Speaker 1: in the back. It's just like, exact, when is it

1073
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: time to loot? So the molly maguires, who are ostensibly Catholics,

1074
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 1: not to just beat this. This is just going to

1075
00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 1: come up a lot the conflict between them and the church.

1076
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 1: They had a tenuous relationship with the church. Some local

1077
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,479
Speaker 1: clergy was on their side. In eighteen forty seven, Father

1078
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 1: Michael McDermott was accused of encouraging his followers to kill

1079
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 1: their landlord. He was accused of this because he did it.

1080
00:59:38,920 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 1: Uh huh, So based Father Michael McDermott. More often, they'd

1081
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:46,520
Speaker 1: attack the church as well, because the church was overall

1082
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 1: just another economic exploiter of the poor, and because the

1083
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: church was trying to criminalize their behavior. Right in eighteen

1084
00:59:53,880 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 1: forty six, they trashed the pews of a church in

1085
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:02,760
Speaker 1: County Rosscommon as one example that I found. And then

1086
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:06,400
Speaker 1: in the mid nineteenth century, the Irish Catholic Church waged

1087
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 1: a devotional revolution trying to bring This is when they

1088
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 1: like romanized the Irish Church. They tried to bring the pagany,

1089
01:00:15,880 --> 01:00:20,280
Speaker 1: wild Irish into the proper flock. In the north and

1090
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:22,960
Speaker 1: west of Ireland, only about twenty percent of the nominally

1091
01:00:23,000 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: Catholic folks actually went to Mass on any given Sunday

1092
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 1: before the famine. And so during this devotional revolution they

1093
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 1: went around and they fucked up all the traditional cultural stuff,

1094
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: including the Holy Wells, including like attacking like belief in

1095
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:42,120
Speaker 1: fairies and curses and all that shit. And they really

1096
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 1: really hated the traditional Irish wake, which was a very

1097
01:00:45,840 --> 01:00:50,320
Speaker 1: raucous thing. And this is probably around the same time

1098
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: that the Catholic Church started fucking with keening, which is

1099
01:00:53,080 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 1: the traditional whaling of Irish women over the dead, which

1100
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 1: was almost completely wiped out by the time that audio

1101
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 1: technology became available. So we have like almost no actual

1102
01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: knowledge of what fucking keening sounded like, this thing that

1103
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:13,320
Speaker 1: survived fifteen hundred years of Christianity as like a traditional

1104
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:16,200
Speaker 1: and whatever. I'm very mad at the church for.

1105
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 2: But it did. But are there we are you implying

1106
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 2: there are some that exist, like early recordings.

1107
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:27,000
Speaker 1: There are some early recordings of people who had been

1108
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 1: taught keenan who were like not necessarily like the specific

1109
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:31,280
Speaker 1: traditional keeners.

1110
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 2: This.

1111
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:34,440
Speaker 1: I didn't research this for this episode. I researched this

1112
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 1: for about a song that my metal band put out

1113
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: a year ago that we hired a woman who studies

1114
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 1: traditional keening as best is able to record keening into

1115
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 1: it and it's called a malocked, which is a curse.

1116
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 1: There's a whole other thing that I got. There's a

1117
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 1: traditional Irish curse culture that a lot of it was

1118
01:01:55,840 --> 01:01:58,800
Speaker 1: ways to curse your landlord, and they are fucking intense,

1119
01:02:00,200 --> 01:02:02,200
Speaker 1: and it was like a lot of the ways actually

1120
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: that women were involved in class struggle was this like

1121
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:07,960
Speaker 1: like you know that thing that in Ukraine early on

1122
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:11,440
Speaker 1: in the invasion where like a woman walks up to

1123
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:13,440
Speaker 1: a Russian soldier and says, here, put these seeds in

1124
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 1: your pocket so that something beautiful grows when you die

1125
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 1: and rot here.

1126
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:17,680
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

1127
01:02:18,280 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 1: That's the kind of energy that like Irish women were

1128
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 1: bringing to class struggle.

1129
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:27,440
Speaker 2: Oh beautiful, yeah, beautiful stuff. It's just it is a

1130
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:32,720
Speaker 2: game of four DJs ya that they're playing at all times. Yeah, wonderful.

1131
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:37,080
Speaker 1: And so these folk Catholics weren't necessarily actually Pagans. I'm

1132
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:39,480
Speaker 1: calling them pagany in the sense, but they would have

1133
01:02:39,520 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: considered themselves devoutly Catholic. They just meant something very very

1134
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 1: different by it, so that the devotional the devotional revolution

1135
01:02:47,920 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 1: is something I'm very frustrated with and it impacts a

1136
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:52,720
Speaker 1: lot of this. The molly Maguires who later went to

1137
01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 1: the US, a lot of them came from the west

1138
01:02:55,000 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 1: coast of County Donegal, which is now the bit of

1139
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 1: the North of Ireland that isn't north in Ireland. It's

1140
01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: the part that's still part of Ireland, right the northwest

1141
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:07,840
Speaker 1: corner at this point. It's a real backwater, which meant

1142
01:03:07,840 --> 01:03:09,880
Speaker 1: that the traditional ways of life in the Irish language

1143
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 1: survived better there. The Irish speaking part of Ireland gets

1144
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 1: called the Geltech and it was sort of the arc

1145
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 1: that Irish culture was able to return from. And Donegal

1146
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:23,000
Speaker 1: was a place that was majority Catholic, but not so

1147
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:26,480
Speaker 1: overwhelmingly so is the South of Ireland. Instead, it was

1148
01:03:26,520 --> 01:03:29,800
Speaker 1: a place where an Irish speaking impoverished majority worked for

1149
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 1: an English speaking Protestant minority. And so the molly McGuire's, yeah,

1150
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,520
Speaker 1: so there's more tension in a lot of this place,

1151
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 1: you know, right, And so the molly mcguires came to

1152
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:45,280
Speaker 1: the US. Came from the western part of Donegal, which

1153
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:47,280
Speaker 1: is a land of waste and bog and it is

1154
01:03:47,320 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 1: one of the poorest and most isolated parts of Ireland.

1155
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:53,640
Speaker 1: In the eighteen hundreds, people in Donegal, a lot of

1156
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: them were like literally dirt poor. It was very common

1157
01:03:56,400 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 1: you'd have a cottage for a family, right, the animals

1158
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 1: would sleep in side on one half of the cottage

1159
01:04:01,640 --> 01:04:03,880
Speaker 1: and the entire family would sleep on loose hay on

1160
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:07,920
Speaker 1: the other half. And this isn't because they are backwards.

1161
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 1: This is because they have been robbed over the course

1162
01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:12,360
Speaker 1: of the centuries.

1163
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 3: Right.

1164
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 1: People had such rudimentary clothing that visitors were scandalized by

1165
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 1: the scantily clad women. This is another sign of their

1166
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 1: like wild pagan ways, which is like partly that they

1167
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 1: didn't have the same like cultural conventions around modesty, but

1168
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 1: partly is that they didn't have any fucking money, right.

1169
01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:34,760
Speaker 2: Right, which is like never included in the demonization of like, Yeah,

1170
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 2: first of all, who fucking cares? And second of all,

1171
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:39,520
Speaker 2: there's no yeah, no context for why that's happening in

1172
01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 2: the first place.

1173
01:04:40,480 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so they would grow food all year and

1174
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:46,000
Speaker 1: then have to sell all of their food that wasn't potatoes.

1175
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 1: They would they would buy a calf on really really

1176
01:04:50,680 --> 01:04:52,720
Speaker 1: bad credit terms and then sell it when it was

1177
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 1: fully grown, barely able to cover the cost of buying

1178
01:04:55,640 --> 01:05:01,120
Speaker 1: the calf. But in some parts of the Northwest you

1179
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:04,320
Speaker 1: had this medieval form of communal land holding called rundale,

1180
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:09,040
Speaker 1: which had died out everywhere else or most everywhere else.

1181
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: And what it was is that the tenants, so they

1182
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:15,960
Speaker 1: would collectively rent a fuck tone of land, right, a

1183
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 1: whole village would rent the village, and they would parcel

1184
01:05:19,240 --> 01:05:22,920
Speaker 1: it out amongst themselves fairly, not so that everyone ends

1185
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:24,560
Speaker 1: up with the same It's not like they would like

1186
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:27,360
Speaker 1: pool all their money, but instead they would pool all

1187
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:31,960
Speaker 1: their wealth producing resources, so that everyone had an equal

1188
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:35,520
Speaker 1: chance to produce wealth. So everyone had a bit of

1189
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 1: good land and a bit of shitty land. Everyone had

1190
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:39,880
Speaker 1: a bit of pasture land, and everyone had a bit

1191
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 1: of like some rocks down by the ocean where you

1192
01:05:41,600 --> 01:05:45,439
Speaker 1: could get some seaweed and it was non contiguous, right,

1193
01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 1: so you and folks work together to make sure that

1194
01:05:49,600 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 1: it was alloted fairly.

1195
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:57,440
Speaker 2: Go ahead. Oh so, because you're given equitable chunks of

1196
01:05:57,520 --> 01:06:00,680
Speaker 2: land in terms of land quality as it were, that

1197
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:04,000
Speaker 2: means that you have your bad chunk could be far

1198
01:06:04,040 --> 01:06:06,000
Speaker 2: away from your good chunk kind of thing.

1199
01:06:06,280 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 1: Yep, I see, Okay, it sounds kind of like a

1200
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:11,200
Speaker 1: pain in the ass, but it it's.

1201
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 2: Like, yeah, but you probably have right and also like

1202
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:18,920
Speaker 2: you would have to sort of I mean, yeah, ultimately

1203
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:20,640
Speaker 2: a pain in the ass, but you would have to

1204
01:06:20,840 --> 01:06:23,760
Speaker 2: get to know more people and an ally with more

1205
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:26,360
Speaker 2: people in that chunk of land between your your good

1206
01:06:26,360 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 2: bit and your bad bit.

1207
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. And they would do the same with animals. They

1208
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:33,440
Speaker 1: would like collectively own the animals and then care like

1209
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 1: sort of parcel them out so that everyone had like

1210
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 1: a shitty cow and a good cow or whatever. I

1211
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:39,880
Speaker 1: don't think people and more than one cow, but like.

1212
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:44,800
Speaker 2: Oh not their shitty cow. Wow. There's a Pixar movie, yeah,

1213
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 2: the picture cow. Yeah.

1214
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 1: And so this system is part of is included in

1215
01:06:52,720 --> 01:06:56,800
Speaker 1: what Marx calls primitive communism, which is actually just communism

1216
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:59,760
Speaker 1: without the extra steps, like specifically, Marx believe that you

1217
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:03,440
Speaker 1: had to be industrialized before you could become communism as

1218
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 1: a primitive communism, which clearly existed, like kind of fucked

1219
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:12,920
Speaker 1: with his theory, so he denigrated it to Yeah, I

1220
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 1: deleted this whole rant about why angles was anti Irish

1221
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:20,320
Speaker 1: out of the script and everyone can thank me. And

1222
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:24,360
Speaker 1: and also animals were usually moved on May first and

1223
01:07:24,400 --> 01:07:28,040
Speaker 1: November first from different pieces of the land, right, which

1224
01:07:28,080 --> 01:07:31,560
Speaker 1: not coincidentally lines up with the Celtic holidays May Day

1225
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 1: and Halloween and the attendant to gray and violence against

1226
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:42,560
Speaker 1: the landlords, which would peak on those nights spicy days. Yeah,

1227
01:07:43,120 --> 01:07:45,880
Speaker 1: Eventually owners break the run Dale system. They force everyone

1228
01:07:45,920 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 1: to be traditional tenants. And the way they do it,

1229
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:52,960
Speaker 1: the way that the tenant the Rundale people, the way

1230
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:55,080
Speaker 1: they fight that is they're like, all right, fine, everyone's

1231
01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:57,520
Speaker 1: land has to be contiguous. It's called squaring the land.

1232
01:07:58,120 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 1: And the way that they would do it is they're like,

1233
01:08:00,520 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 1: we still want everyone to have good land and shitty

1234
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 1: land because that's the traditional way we've been doing it

1235
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:07,080
Speaker 1: for thousands of years. So they would have the contiguous

1236
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 1: land would be like three feet wide and like a

1237
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 1: mile long, so it would go across I think good

1238
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:15,600
Speaker 1: parts and bad parts.

1239
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:23,559
Speaker 2: Again just theater, yeah, great, love it.

1240
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:26,640
Speaker 1: And then also during all of this, during the destruction

1241
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 1: of this way of life in County Donegal, they broke

1242
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:33,560
Speaker 1: up the traditional Irish inheritance system, in which property was

1243
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 1: divided equally between all of the children rather than going

1244
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:39,599
Speaker 1: to the eldest son. It's actually this change is why

1245
01:08:39,640 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 1: my great grandparents had to emmigray from County Galway, right

1246
01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:46,240
Speaker 1: because under the old system, everyone of every gender inherits equally.

1247
01:08:46,800 --> 01:08:49,200
Speaker 1: Under the new system, only the oldest son inherits. So

1248
01:08:49,200 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 1: if you are not a son, or you're not the oldest,

1249
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:54,720
Speaker 1: you're fucked and you pretty much got to go to

1250
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:57,880
Speaker 1: the US or somewhere else.

1251
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:01,040
Speaker 2: And that's why we're here. What a treat.

1252
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then so this equal inheritance system was destroyed

1253
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:09,760
Speaker 1: after the famine. Basically famine killed not just a fuck

1254
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:11,479
Speaker 1: ton of the Irish, but it also killed a fuck

1255
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 1: ton of the Irish traditional communistic customs and religious culture.

1256
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:20,960
Speaker 1: So Donegal was enclosed mostly for sheep farming. People fought

1257
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:23,719
Speaker 1: against it. Lots of sheep went missing or found killed.

1258
01:09:23,960 --> 01:09:26,639
Speaker 1: But all of this gets blamed on Molly McGuire ism,

1259
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 1: and some of it probably was, but later people figured

1260
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:32,759
Speaker 1: out that like the Scottish farmers were just like stealing

1261
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:35,280
Speaker 1: the sheep and selling them themselves, you know, like they

1262
01:09:35,280 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 1: were like yeah and yeah, and everything just gets blamed

1263
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:42,879
Speaker 1: on the Molly maguires. But the Molly McGuire's.

1264
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's like so that's so I don't know, historically

1265
01:09:47,760 --> 01:09:51,439
Speaker 2: frustrating that it's like we've well never know who did

1266
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:56,479
Speaker 2: what because of whenever the predominant media culture at the

1267
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:58,120
Speaker 2: time what they wanted us to think, I know.

1268
01:09:58,200 --> 01:09:59,920
Speaker 1: And it's like so hard to be like, damn it,

1269
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,799
Speaker 1: how much did the Molly McGuire like everything got blamed

1270
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 1: on them? And it's hard because like in some ways

1271
01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:10,840
Speaker 1: therefore their actions like furthered a lot of you know,

1272
01:10:10,920 --> 01:10:13,759
Speaker 1: anti Irish sentiment and stuff like that, right, But also

1273
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:16,040
Speaker 1: like I'm just fucking not mad at people who robinhood

1274
01:10:16,080 --> 01:10:18,439
Speaker 1: when they're starving to death, Like I'm pro it, right,

1275
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:20,960
Speaker 1: there's a reason they're on my show, you know, Like.

1276
01:10:23,360 --> 01:10:25,479
Speaker 2: That is the show, is it not?

1277
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:30,680
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, But the molly McGuire's, they're not famous in

1278
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:33,080
Speaker 1: the US for what they did in Ireland. They're famous

1279
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:35,600
Speaker 1: for what they did in Pennsylvania, which involved lots of

1280
01:10:35,680 --> 01:10:39,320
Speaker 1: murder and arson and class war and weird unionism. And

1281
01:10:39,360 --> 01:10:41,880
Speaker 1: we'll talk about it on Wednesday.

1282
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 2: Cliffanger. Dun dun, duh. Oh god a Pennsylvania Cliffhanger.

1283
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:54,280
Speaker 3: For some reason, I've heard about Pennsylvania more than I've

1284
01:10:54,280 --> 01:10:56,719
Speaker 3: heard about Pennsylvania in.

1285
01:10:56,640 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 2: Like years, just this week. Really, it's the big Pence

1286
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:04,600
Speaker 2: a new week. I don't know why I hate Pennsylvania.

1287
01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:10,840
Speaker 2: That's annoying too. I love Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh's great, not just

1288
01:11:10,840 --> 01:11:12,719
Speaker 2: because they have the Catchup Museum.

1289
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:16,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly why I love.

1290
01:11:16,040 --> 01:11:18,040
Speaker 2: That's a big read. That's a big reason. It's a

1291
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:21,080
Speaker 2: book reason I can't lie. But it's not the only reason.

1292
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:28,160
Speaker 3: Fair fair Yeah, speaking of things that are loved. Jamie Loftus,

1293
01:11:28,640 --> 01:11:29,920
Speaker 3: do you have anything you want to plug?

1294
01:11:30,640 --> 01:11:35,160
Speaker 2: Wow? Thanks? I Yes, you should buy a book about

1295
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 2: hot dogs. It's the summer to do it. There's no

1296
01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:40,960
Speaker 2: way around it. Hot Dog Day is right around the corner.

1297
01:11:41,000 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 2: And don't think too hard about the implications of it,

1298
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:46,400
Speaker 2: or do when you read my book Raw Dog, The

1299
01:11:46,600 --> 01:11:49,439
Speaker 2: Naked Truth about hot Dogs, anything you would ever want

1300
01:11:49,479 --> 01:11:51,719
Speaker 2: to know about hot dogs, except more things I've learned

1301
01:11:51,760 --> 01:11:56,439
Speaker 2: since and you can get that on a bookshop dot org,

1302
01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:00,360
Speaker 2: which will automatically route you to buy the book from

1303
01:12:00,400 --> 01:12:05,439
Speaker 2: your nearest independent bookstore. So do that and don't talk

1304
01:12:05,439 --> 01:12:06,840
Speaker 2: to me in the internet. I'm tired.

1305
01:12:12,000 --> 01:12:15,720
Speaker 1: I started a substack and if you want a newsletter

1306
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:20,280
Speaker 1: where twice a month I send out a free thing

1307
01:12:20,320 --> 01:12:24,320
Speaker 1: to everyone that's like more about preparedness and history and

1308
01:12:24,360 --> 01:12:27,880
Speaker 1: all that stuff I talk about a lot. And then

1309
01:12:27,880 --> 01:12:30,519
Speaker 1: the other half is subscriber only and is like more

1310
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:34,760
Speaker 1: personal and I'm writing memoir and a lot of other

1311
01:12:34,760 --> 01:12:38,720
Speaker 1: stuff there, and so you can support me or just

1312
01:12:38,840 --> 01:12:42,479
Speaker 1: read my stuff at just you're not going to type

1313
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 1: in the r oh, you're just going to google it,

1314
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:52,360
Speaker 1: type in Margaret Kiljoy substack. And also I just did

1315
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:58,360
Speaker 1: oh awesome. Also there's Sophie who has things to plug.

1316
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:02,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah.

1317
01:13:02,680 --> 01:13:05,800
Speaker 3: Listen to sad Oligork, which is a podcast on this

1318
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:09,400
Speaker 3: very network, cool Zone Media. If you can finde it

1319
01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:12,360
Speaker 3: in on all the podcast apps. It's hosted by our

1320
01:13:12,400 --> 01:13:18,680
Speaker 3: friend Jkandrahan, who's the best. And for anything else at

1321
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:22,280
Speaker 3: cool Zone Media. I'm still on the internet. You could

1322
01:13:22,280 --> 01:13:26,639
Speaker 3: find me. I'm not telling you how well.

1323
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:32,639
Speaker 2: Let's see you on Wednesday. Bye Bye Bye.

1324
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:36,120
Speaker 3: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1325
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 3: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

1326
01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:42,679
Speaker 3: visit our website coolzonemedia dot com or check us out

1327
01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:46,160
Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1328
01:13:46,200 --> 01:13:47,000
Speaker 3: your podcasts.