1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,520 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. You're 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: twice weekly dose of radical history. I'm no, it's not 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 1: gonna okay. I'm your host, Margaret Keiljoy. This week, my 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:12,840 Speaker 1: guest is Mia Wong, who's host of the award winning 5 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 1: podcast It Could Happen Here. You've you've won awards, right, No, 6 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,520 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone who does who does awards knows 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: we exist. Okay. I think most of the award losing 8 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: podcast It Can Happen Here entered? Does that kind of losing? 9 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: All right? All right, never mind, we've definitely entered things podcast. 10 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: We've never even been nominated. I probably this is probably 11 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:45,639 Speaker 1: an award losing podcast. You're listening to you right now. 12 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: I have proudly lost two science fiction awards. Um like, 13 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:53,239 Speaker 1: been nominated, but I like the phrasing award losing. I'm 14 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: your producer and I'm award winning. Wow. I'm so tired 15 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: that I best. I'm so tired that I myself say 16 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,160 Speaker 1: that the internet. Oh you could fire me. I'm that's 17 00:01:04,319 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: okay with it. I hate myself. Now. That's Sophie, who's 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: the award winning Sophie Lichterman. How are you doing Sophie. 19 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: I've slept for like thirty five minutes in the last 20 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: like four days. I'm doing great. This is the loopy 21 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: episode for everyone this week. I like, I almost took 22 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,000 Speaker 1: a nap, but it was like thirty minutes before record time, 23 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,760 Speaker 1: and I was like, no, no, just do. I slept 24 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 1: for eleven hours last night, but not in a row 25 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: which I was combined. Did you that's worse than Yeah? Well, 26 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 1: our audio engineers ian and our theme music was written 27 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: for us by a woman. This week, we're talking about 28 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: art street gangs in New York City in the nineteen sixties. 29 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: You should go back and listen to part one if 30 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: you haven't, because it won't make a ton of sense. Otherwise. 31 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,320 Speaker 1: Where we last left our heroes, there was this small 32 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: group called Black Mask that ran a magazine called Black Mask, 33 00:02:01,680 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: and they did actions, and there had been an anti 34 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: war art thing called Angry Arts Weak that mia made 35 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: me feel much better about. But it's all about to 36 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: get bigger and more motherfuckery. So all these new artists, 37 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: they didn't all join Black Mask because black Mask was 38 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: like kind of its own little affinity group or whatever, 39 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: you know, it has his own thing going on. They 40 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: started something new and larger and more radical still, and 41 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: they called themselves up against the Wall Motherfucker's. Their rationale 42 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: was this, well, polite media can't even print our name, 43 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: see for example, the name of this episode in your 44 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: podcast feed. And they figured if mainstream society couldn't even 45 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: discuss them, then the motherfucker's, as they called themselves, couldn't 46 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: be co opted. It's actually pretty clever. Yeah, the name 47 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 1: comes from It comes from a poem by Amery Baraka. 48 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: I have read this poem. Yeah, it's good. It is 49 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: a trip. You should read it. It's yeah, it's it's 50 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote some of it, but only a little piece. Yeah. 51 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: The poems called black people just makes it an interesting 52 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 1: name for the people who whatever. The white groupup against 53 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: the Wall Motherfucker's, well, the majority actually once again hard 54 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: to entirely. No, we'll talk about it more as we 55 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: go through the racial makeup of this group. Anyway, Amari 56 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,239 Speaker 1: wrote this poem in new work during an uprising against 57 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: police violence. The relevant part of it for this is quote, 58 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 1: you can't steal nothing from a white man. He's already 59 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 1: stole it. He owes you anything you want, even his 60 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: life all the stores will open if you say the 61 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: magic words. The magic words are up against the wall. Motherfucker. 62 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: This is a stick up. Yeah, but you should you 63 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: should talk more about the rest of it. I just 64 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: want to read that quote. Oh God, you should say 65 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: it all her memory now, Okay, I read this six 66 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: years ago. Seven Now. I wanted to find more about 67 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: what Amery Baraka thought about the Motherfucker's because of the 68 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: second time they've they've referenced him black Mask used his 69 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: picture when they fake assassinated Ken Coke in the last episode. Um, 70 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: I haven't succeeded yet to finding out what a merry 71 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: thought of them, but I do know that overall the 72 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: Motherfucker's were in very solid terms of the Black Panthers. 73 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: They coordinated actions together. Like at one point there was 74 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: like riots and Harlem, and so the Motherfucker's through a 75 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: big thing in the Lower East Side, so that cops 76 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 1: had to leave Harlem and come down and yeah, like 77 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: rather than like showing up to the other people's thing 78 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: and being like, oh yes too, they were like, all right, 79 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: well we'll do a thing. And then the NMPDS fucked 80 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: you know, Yeah that that's okay. This is this is 81 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: why this is Okay, I I have two things about protested. 82 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: Every time I got want to show, I must say 83 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: one do not okay that the first one is not 84 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: related to this. Stop trying to take over the Brooklyn 85 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: Bridge unless you can secure one of the sides. If 86 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 1: you don't secure one of the sides, they will like 87 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 1: they will block up both sides the bridge and restaurant. 88 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: This has happened three different times in different uprisings in 89 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 1: my lifetime, and every single time everyone is goes, this 90 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: is Pikachu face thing, or like, oh my god, how 91 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: do we all get arrested at? Please stop? That's the 92 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:08,359 Speaker 1: first on bridges. That's how I feel. Don't go on bridges. 93 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: I walk around them. It's like bridges unless you can, 94 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: unless you like really seriously have liked of thousands of 95 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: people to hold on side of the bridge. Okay, always 96 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: have a way to retreat. Stop doing this, please, there 97 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: will be another uprising in my life time if you guys, 98 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: I will have failed in my mission as a podcast 99 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:26,479 Speaker 1: if you guys all get arrested again in the Brooklyn Bridge. 100 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ. Okay, So that that's number one. Number two, 101 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: it's it's this thing that now like now, I can't 102 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: remember which police department said it. It might have been 103 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: l A, it might have been Portland's. But yeah, there 104 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: was this line that was like, yeah, yeah, we we 105 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,800 Speaker 1: we We can stop like one protest of five thousand people, 106 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: but we can't stop like a hundred protests of five 107 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:50,280 Speaker 1: hunder people. So like, please stop sending everyone to one place, 108 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: because that that allows the cops scotch read the numbers. 109 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: There actually aren't that many cops. It's just that when 110 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 1: when their numbers are concentrated, they do really well. And 111 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: if you do stuff like what they're doing, which is 112 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: you draw, you keep drawing cops all over the place. Right. 113 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: Their commanding control system is terrible. They're not very smart. 114 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: You can, you know, you can pull apart. But if 115 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: if you if you keep just pulling all of your 116 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: people in one place, you will keep losing. So don't 117 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 1: don't do that. Do what these people are doing. It's 118 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: much smarter. We've gotten worship this tactically apparently since I know, 119 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: I mean, they were fairly advanced for their time. Um, 120 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: but of course this is purely history. I don't know 121 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: what you're doing tying this into the modern world. This 122 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: is just a little slice of history. No one should 123 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:34,760 Speaker 1: do any of them anyway, Yeah, no, totally okay. And 124 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: then other things about their interactions the Black Panthers, and 125 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:39,280 Speaker 1: we'll get to more of that too as we go on. 126 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: But Eldritch Cleaver, who was the leader of the Black 127 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,920 Speaker 1: Panther Party at this time, asked Ben Maria from Black 128 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: Masking Up against the Wall Motherfucker's to be his running 129 00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: mate for president. Oh cool. Ben turned him down. Was basically, 130 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: like he's quoted a couple different ways over the years. 131 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: It wasn't like, well, hell, no I'm not. He was like, no, 132 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 1: I'm an anarchist. Yeah, I can't, like not really my thing. 133 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: Like thanks, though, Clever's political art, by the ways, wild 134 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: look that up sometime. He oh boy, he takes a 135 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: wild turn in the eighties. Yeah okay, yeah, oh time. 136 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: So maybe it wasn't weird two people at the time 137 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: that they named themselves from a poem called black People, Right. 138 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: Trying to like I've been talking about the whole time, 139 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,040 Speaker 1: trying to wrap my head around sixty year old leftist 140 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 1: race relations has been an ongoing process. They formed. The 141 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: group soon became an identity the motherfucker's exist to throw 142 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 1: themselves into the fray, to walk the walk. And they also, 143 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: uh called themselves the family, which don't do. There's very 144 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 1: few things that I want to say that they did 145 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: that they that don't do. Now, this is one of them. 146 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 1: Don't call yourself the family. There's no relation that they 147 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 1: claim to Charles Manson's the family that was happening around 148 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 1: the same time in the West Coast where they were. Yeah, 149 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: I was gonna say there's definitely some overlap. There there is, 150 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: and I actually, um, it didn't quite make it into 151 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 1: the script. The there was a cultural thing that was 152 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: happening where but basically everyone's being a little bit of 153 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: edge lords the Motherfucker's. I didn't see them do as much. 154 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: But Burnard and Dorn from the Weather Underground at one 155 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: point Um ended a speech by holding up three fingers, 156 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: but not in a cool, cool Hunger Games way or 157 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: a boy scout's way, but like separated out like a 158 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: little eating fork. And it's a reference to when they 159 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: killed Tate and some other people, they left forks in 160 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: their bodies. If you're not up on the Charles Manson thing, 161 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: he's never gonna be on this fucking show because he's 162 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: not cool. He was a fucking racist trying to start 163 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: a race war. In case you were wondering, Charles Manson 164 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: as he was a cult leader who was trying to 165 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 1: start a race war so that he could rule over 166 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:50,199 Speaker 1: all the black people in the world. Um fuck him. Anyway, 167 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: they called themselves the Family. What a nice little what 168 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: a nice little side note we just add, Yeah, I 169 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:02,840 Speaker 1: forgot what show was first, Like, oh funk I should 170 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: do a bastards Man anyway? Um you should. I feel 171 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: like that would be fun. Yeah, because I've been like, 172 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: I'm just like deep and there's gonna be a bunch 173 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: of more episodes of about like late sixties ship coming 174 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 1: up for you all. Each of them took on the 175 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: last name motherfucker, so like you'd be like me a motherfucker, 176 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 1: be Margaret motherfucker. Surprise, Surprisingly that works for both of us. 177 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: I feel like the very strong and I think Sophie 178 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: Sophie motherfucker works too. It's actually just a really solid 179 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: last name. Um, I think it sounds cooler if it 180 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 1: was motherfucker Sophie. But all right, all right, there's no 181 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 1: membership role. Of course, membership was fluid One person says 182 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: there was ten to fifteen core members. Another person says 183 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: it was more like fifty. Once again, I have two 184 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: very opposing sources on all of this. I actually believe 185 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: the larger number because there was multiple affinity groups within 186 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: the Motherfucker's and that was kind of I think the 187 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: big thing that this other person who is in one 188 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: of the affinity groups is referencing in his memoirs. So 189 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: the ten to fifteen was probably one of those groups. 190 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: They hung out on the streets, they made closest friends 191 00:10:08,040 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 1: with a group of their like closest people that they 192 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 1: crewed up with was a group of Puerto Rican street 193 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: kids who came out to their events hung out at 194 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: their crash pads. They also ran with a group of 195 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: street winos who, following their leads, started their own organization, 196 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: the Wine Group for Freedom a k a. The Wine 197 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: Nation that Rules so much. Right, I did not know 198 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: was a thing. I mean, as an organized entity, I 199 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: was not aware of. But I haven't been the furthest 200 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: from that. At some point in my life was more 201 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: of a malt liquor street kid, but um literally in 202 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: the same streets where all this should happened. Tompkins Square Park. Anyway. 203 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 1: As for who they organized with, Ben Maria put it 204 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: like this quote, we took LSD and hung out in 205 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 1: the streets, So like, what were we gonna do? Or 206 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: we're gonna organize students. I couldn't stand students. Whether or 207 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: not this group was patriarchal is another matter of historical debate. 208 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: Once again between these two people who don't like each 209 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: other's positions. Osha says and no uncertain terms, that it 210 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 1: was patriarchal, that the women were auxiliary, that they came 211 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: and went only based on who they were sleeping with, 212 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: and that they did like a majority of the cooking 213 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: and cleaning. Ben says in no, in certain terms, that 214 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,679 Speaker 1: it was not patriarchal. I think the answer is complicated. 215 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: I think that they were as patriarchal as other male 216 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: radicals at that time. But the thing is is they 217 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: actually weren't anywhere near an all male group. I think 218 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: that part is actually true. What it was is that, 219 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: as was the style at the time, the women organized 220 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: separately um in a but it wasn't an auxiliary It 221 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 1: was a separate affinity group. They all took the name 222 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: like Carol motherfucker, and shipped like that, and um, they 223 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,559 Speaker 1: did their own actions autonomously. They asked for support from 224 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: the men. They'd be like, Hey, we're gonna go funk 225 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,320 Speaker 1: up this speaker. Can you either come with and support 226 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: us or stay home and cook dinner so that we 227 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: have dinner when we get back. And the men did, 228 00:12:09,600 --> 00:12:12,959 Speaker 1: because yeah, even Oshow and he's like, it was all men, 229 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: and then he goes on for paragraphs talking about all 230 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 1: this amazing ship the women did. I think he in 231 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: retrospect isn't totally grasping the separate organizing that again, was 232 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,000 Speaker 1: like more the kind of way that people are in 233 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: identity organizing at the time. Yeah, I mean I feel 234 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: like that. That's definitely like I don't know, well, like 235 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: a yeah, definitely true. Like sixties groups their gender politics 236 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 1: is like not good and it's really bleak reading a 237 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: lot of issues and stuff. But like that, I don't know, 238 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: people people did like the like the way that sort 239 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,440 Speaker 1: of liberation struggles gets framed around that time, I think 240 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: leads to a lot of that kind of stuff of 241 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,319 Speaker 1: like everyone has their own sort of liberation movements and 242 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: they do things within like that thing, and that's sometimes working. 243 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 1: You get a lot of these like I don't know, 244 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,960 Speaker 1: I'm most familiar with this with how sort of like 245 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,719 Speaker 1: Asian American became a term. Was a bunch of the 246 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: sort of third world ist people who like formed their 247 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: own like we're gonna be the Yellow Power group, like 248 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: alongside Black Power, and we're gonna do this whole thing. 249 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: And it's like there's advantages to it. There's also I 250 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: don't know, like there's real parts where it gets really 251 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: bad and like you know, like part of the reason 252 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: none of the stuff exists anymore really in the US, 253 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,199 Speaker 1: and why Asian American doesn't you know, has nothing to 254 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: do with the sort of radicalism anymore in terms of 255 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: people think about it. Was like, well, okay, so it 256 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: turns out that like if if if you're sort of 257 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: group basis is supposed to be like the Third World 258 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: TM and you know, you you you have a bunch 259 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: of people, have a bunch of people who are sort 260 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: of like Chinese nationalists, Combodian nationalists, and Vietnamese nationalists all 261 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: trying to work together. And then China, Campodia and Vietnam 262 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 1: go to war with each other. Oh yeah, sure, real 263 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:57,679 Speaker 1: bad shape that this is. This is the whole thing 264 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: too with like this. This is like like a lot 265 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 1: of these sort of maoist groups get into real trouble. 266 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: For example, because the CCP starts supporting like the wrong 267 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: side of the Civil War and Angola, but they're they're 268 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: they're they're backing a rebel group. Eventually the US South 269 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: Africa backs like that. This is like a real and 270 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:16,439 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm kind of going on attention there. There 271 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: there are a lot of real issues with the way 272 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: that American movements are sort of are supposed to be shaped. 273 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: It's the sort of mirror images of these national liberation movements. 274 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: But then when those humans go to war with each other, 275 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: it really messes everything up. And that that has a 276 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: lot of sort of like and it has a lot 277 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 1: of downstream effects on a lot of these groups. And 278 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,600 Speaker 1: also I don't know, like it's why I don't think 279 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: it's actually like a great organizing model really because that's 280 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: a lot of problems. It's so interesting because yeah, like there, 281 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: you know, we we we run into all the time, 282 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: we run into the limits of identity based organizing. But 283 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: at the same time, when we like subsume our identities 284 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: to be part of these like um, these groups, we 285 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: can also then some times like lose something valuable as well, 286 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 1: And it's like this fun tension that I guess we've 287 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: been struggling with for fucking ever, you know. Yeah, I guess. 288 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: My My one thing about that, like like, don't do 289 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: it if if you're if you're gonna do a thing 290 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 1: and we're gonna be like, we're gonna foord identity around this. 291 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: Don't do it off of like the politics of another country, 292 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: because that is going to come back to bite you 293 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,320 Speaker 1: in ways that you were not prepared for. Yeah, no, 294 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: that makes sense. I didn't write down a ton of 295 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,600 Speaker 1: the actions that happened specifically by some of the women, 296 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: but it was like all the stuff we're talking about, 297 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: It was a bunch of different affinity groups doing all 298 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: of this different stuff. But Carol, motherfucker. At one point 299 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 1: she was breastfeeding in public and a cop was yelling 300 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: at her for breastfeeding in public, so she whipped out 301 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: her tit and squirted him with breast milk in the face. 302 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 1: And that just rules. I'm glad you did that then 303 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: and not now, so we don't have to read the 304 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: discourse about it, because I feel like it'd be terrible, 305 00:15:55,960 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 1: but I just think that's funny. And another way in 306 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: which they were engaged in militant feminist struggle. Valerie Salanis 307 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: was one of their hanger on and close friends with 308 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: many in the group. Valerie Salanas is famous for two things. 309 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 1: She's famous because she wrote a book called The Scum Manifesto, 310 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: which is the manifesto for a group called the Society 311 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 1: for Cutting Up Men, which is as misinteresting as it gets. 312 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: It is a male exterminationist pamphlet or book, and a 313 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: very interesting read. Frankly, when it's taken as hyperbole, it's 314 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: very interesting. Second, she's famous because she shot Andy Warhol. 315 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:42,760 Speaker 1: She didn't kill him one job, you know, more than 316 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,040 Speaker 1: the rest of us, she she she's got further than 317 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: anyone else did. But yeah, yeah, you'll like The Motherfucker's. Uh. 318 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: The movie about her is called I Shot Andy Warhol. 319 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: In the movie, they actually basically claimed that Ben from 320 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: The Motherfucker's gave her the gun. He vehemently says that 321 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: this is not true. What happened instead was that but 322 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 1: but what happened instead was that she climbed it. We'll 323 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: talk about some of this other ship later. They were 324 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: occupying Columbia University. She climbs in through the window and 325 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 1: she's like, hey, hey, Ben, what happened if I shot somebody? 326 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 1: And Ben's like, you know, it really depends on who 327 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: you shoot and whether or not they die. It's like okay, 328 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: and then climbs out the window. So wait, you can't 329 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: like them, no, because because they said they they derailed 330 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 1: fully killing Andy Warhol Oh oh no, I don't. I 331 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: don't think she shot to not kill. I think she 332 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 1: was just given honest, I don't know reasonable all right, 333 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: that's not a Valerie. Valerie grew up really fucking rough. 334 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: She was born in ninety six. She suffered physical and 335 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: sexual abuse from her family when she was a kid. 336 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 1: This rules she sold insults for a living on the playground. 337 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,119 Speaker 1: Like that's awesome. If you want her like a really 338 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: sick burn, you'd go to Valerie and give her a 339 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: dime and she'd write you a really good insult to 340 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: use against another kids about a dollar or so today. 341 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: At one point, I know, at one point she beat 342 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:19,440 Speaker 1: up a bully who was like picking on a younger kid. 343 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: Another point she beat up a nun. I don't know 344 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: what for. I don't know I deserved that. Her life 345 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: was hard as fun. She was homeless at fifteen. She 346 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: had a kid when she was seventeen that was taken 347 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: away from her and given up for adoption. I think 348 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,399 Speaker 1: without her consent, she worked her way through college. I 349 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: believe through sex work, but I know she did sex 350 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: work later. And I'm not a hud certain at what 351 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: point she began doing sex work. She got herself a 352 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: degree in psychology, ran a radio show at her college 353 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 1: campus where she gave listeners advice about how to beat 354 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: up men who are fucking with them. She lived openly 355 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 1: as a gay woman in the fucking nineteen fifties. She 356 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: moved to New York City. She kept hustling, or started 357 00:18:57,359 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: hustling um and she wrote a bunch of stuff, and 358 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: including a play about a man hating sex worker who 359 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: kills a guy called up Your Ass. And she tried 360 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: to get Andy Warhol at stage the play. He claimed 361 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: he lost the script, but then he hired her to 362 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: perform in one of his films, which she did. Then 363 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: she decided it was an attempt to steal her work, 364 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: so she shot him. There's more to it than that, 365 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: but not a lot more than that. It's very complicated 366 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,959 Speaker 1: and also um, she's not um. She's not neurotypical in 367 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: a lot of different ways. He survived, Andy war All survived. 368 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: She turned herself in. She said that she shot Andy 369 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: Warhol because he had too much control over her life. 370 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:38,360 Speaker 1: She was diagnosed as schizophrenia. I've got complicated feelings about 371 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 1: the scum manifesto. If you take it as hyperboly, as hyperboly, 372 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,640 Speaker 1: it's really interesting. It's basically like patriarchy is really fucking 373 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 1: bad to women, and violent resistance is an understandable thing 374 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,600 Speaker 1: to consider. And for the longest time I assumed it 375 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: was intended as I probabe perboly, because I was like, no, 376 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: I can't clearly, and we look at this, you know, 377 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: it seems like she both did and didn't mean it 378 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 1: as hyperbole. Most of the ship it is messy. It 379 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,199 Speaker 1: depends on who you ask, and sometimes it depends on 380 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: when you ask the people you ask. Ben has given 381 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: conflicting answers to this question. How does this tie into 382 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: the motherfucker's you might ask, I'm glad you asked. She 383 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,199 Speaker 1: wasn't one of them, but she hung out sometimes and 384 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:19,120 Speaker 1: Ben let her crash with him because she was homeless. 385 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: They actually met because um Ben was selling black Mask 386 00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: on the street and she was like, well, I've got 387 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: a nickel and he was like, I don't care how 388 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: it and then she took it and she was like, 389 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 1: oh wait, hold on, and she walked into the bookstore 390 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 1: that they were hanging out in front of, stole a 391 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: copy of her own book, came out and gave it 392 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: to Ben and Ben was like, clearly, you're fucking awesome 393 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: and we should be in each other's lives. And she 394 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: clearly wasn't dating any of them. Count She's clearly the 395 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: kind of person who shot with it, shot anyone who 396 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:52,479 Speaker 1: sucked with her. Ben describes this Gun Manifesto this way quote. 397 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: There was a lot of parody and irony in her writing, 398 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:56,359 Speaker 1: but she was also, and I don't mean this in 399 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: a bad way, a fairly crazy person. She saw need 400 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: to raise a lot of issue is around what happens 401 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: to women, and it scut Manifesto is the best way 402 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: she could express herself. Um And I feel like that's 403 00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: the best summation about Scott Manifesto and the intentions behind 404 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 1: it that I've been able to find. Yeah, I think 405 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,119 Speaker 1: that that makes sense. I don't like it's it's definitely 406 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: one of those things that's like very complicated historical document, 407 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: and there have been some people who have used it 408 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: to have some really really bad politics, which um, yeah, yeah, 409 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:36,360 Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, I don't know. It's like I don't 410 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 1: want to write it off like completely as a thing, 411 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:43,959 Speaker 1: but yeah, there's I don't know, there's some there's some 412 00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: real weird turf stuff that people have like used that 413 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:52,479 Speaker 1: for which don't do that. It's bad, no, and like 414 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: and and miss injury in general is like actually a 415 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: very negative thing and it negatively impacts everybody, and it 416 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: is like I as a recovering misinterest. Um, I think 417 00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: that it's important to I really like the the more 418 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: inclusive frameworks where we talk about like, um, the ways 419 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: in which patriarchy hurts everybody, and it hurts some people 420 00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: more than it hurts other people. But um, I think 421 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 1: overall that is the winning both ethically and strategically attitude 422 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: to have. But um, I think it's interesting to read. 423 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 1: I think it's an interesting argument to say, look, how 424 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: bad things are, even if I don't agree with it. 425 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: I also haven't read it about twenty years, so she 426 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: gets arrested. Well, you know what also got you arrested, 427 00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:55,880 Speaker 1: not taking advantage of these screaming deals of stuff. Here's 428 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: some stuff, and we're back from that. Totally natural. Sophia 429 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: has this like two thumbs up, you did great, totally 430 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,120 Speaker 1: doesn't have her hand on her forehead shaking her head. 431 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 1: Not at all. I would never lie to you, dear listeners. 432 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: Oh I can't lie to you. It was all a lie. 433 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: Sophie was shaking her head. What are you talking about? 434 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: No note? So Ben wrote a pamphlet supporting her after 435 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: her arrest, probably the only public support for shooting this artist. Uh. 436 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: He went up to the moment and he passed out 437 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,199 Speaker 1: a pamphlet supporting the woman who had just shot New 438 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 1: York City's art Darling, with the quote Valerie is ours 439 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: on it signed the Motherfucker's um. To quote Ben, Yeah, 440 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: to quote Ben. More from an interview he did years later, 441 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: he was helping to destroy the whole idea of creativity 442 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: and art. Some people dislike the term, but I feel 443 00:23:57,480 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 1: that creativity is a kind of a spiritual act, a 444 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: profound thing for people to do. Warhol was the exact opposite. 445 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: He tried to deny and purge the core of creativity 446 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,200 Speaker 1: and put it on a commercial basis. As a person, 447 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: he was really despicable as well, and that's why Valerie 448 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: hated him. He used and manipulated people. Yeah, and I 449 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,080 Speaker 1: I really like I have a like, like dear fanatically 450 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:25,320 Speaker 1: hatred of that guy. Oh man, you're then okay. One 451 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 1: of my favorite things about working with Mia is finding 452 00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: out the people that she hates. And it's so it's 453 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: so funny because she's always right, she's always it's so funny. 454 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: And then it's really funny when we randomly hate the 455 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: same person. It's so beautiful, etcetera. And no idea. Oh 456 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 1: that's so nice. Stay there, Stay there if you like 457 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: you true the football player, a writer or a talking head. 458 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,040 Speaker 1: Definitely not a writer. There's my three guesses where any 459 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: of them? Right? Yes? Okay, all right, anyway back to 460 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: the motherfucker's because I don't know anything about what's happening 461 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: in the normal world. I know about weird ship that 462 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: Proto Punks did with Switchblades in the nineteen sixties on 463 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: Lower East Side, much cooler. They were a group, now 464 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: a gang, usually staying on the non cult side of 465 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 1: the is this occult Line. Their first action under their 466 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: new name was in February sixty eight. The Lower East 467 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: Side was in the middle of the sanitation workers strike, 468 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,920 Speaker 1: so there's garbage piled up everywhere. Uptown was all sparkling 469 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: and clean. So the Motherfucker's grabbed a whole bunch of 470 00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,000 Speaker 1: garbage and bags, had a parade with kazoos and black flags, 471 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 1: and of course flyers went to the subway, took the 472 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,680 Speaker 1: subway up to Lincoln Center for Performing Arts on the 473 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 1: Upper West Side, dumped all the garbage on the steps 474 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: while a phalanx of cops were guarding the place. Their 475 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,720 Speaker 1: flyers read, we propose a cultural exchange garbage for garbage. 476 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 1: I didn't I I knew about the action. I didn't 477 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 1: know it was these guys. Yeah, awesome. Now they just 478 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: want everything. There's some ship. They didn't here, but I 479 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 1: was like, whoa, that was them. Yeah. Most of their 480 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: day to day work, like every cool group that we 481 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: talk about, is mutual aid. Most of the thing that 482 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,360 Speaker 1: they did day in and day out was take care 483 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: of people in each other. They set up free stores 484 00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:24,960 Speaker 1: where you could go in and everything in the store 485 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: is free. They set crashed but wait, Okay, so this 486 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: is they didn't invent them, right that that's an older 487 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,199 Speaker 1: thing than them, So I am aware of At the 488 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: same time, the Diggers on the West Coast, who were 489 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: also a narco hippies but in a very different style, 490 00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,639 Speaker 1: also setting up free stores. So I presume this pre 491 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: dates them or is something that was happening counterculturally at 492 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: the time, but I don't know. They set up crash pads, 493 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,679 Speaker 1: which was another big countercultural thing where basically it was 494 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 1: like a you can show up and sleep here. Um. 495 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,440 Speaker 1: Sometimes they're squatted, sometimes they're rented. They had huge community 496 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: feasts in the courtyard of St. Mark's Church for three 497 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: four hundred people, several nights a week. And I really 498 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: like this because it gives me a sense of continuity 499 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: because decades later the offenses of St. Mark's Church where 500 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 1: where thousands of us took refuge from police who are 501 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,320 Speaker 1: attacking us. During the two thousand four Republican National Convention, 502 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,160 Speaker 1: I feel like, Okay, people ask a lot about sort 503 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,399 Speaker 1: of like what what parts of like European white culture 504 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: should anyone like do, And my my one answer to 505 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: that is you need you guys need to bring back 506 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,959 Speaker 1: the like the medieval peasant feasting schedule. Oh yeah, that 507 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: was the that was like one of the three days 508 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,760 Speaker 1: or something like at it's heightened, like like you that 509 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: that's the one, that's the one. Bring the feasts back. Yeah, 510 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: you can do this. I mean the twelve one of 511 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: most recent episodes we did on the twelve days at Christmas. 512 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: It's just twelve days of parties and all the all 513 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 1: the rules are gone and you can just do whatever 514 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: you want. And yeah, look we just just keep putting 515 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: more of them one day. Yeah, yeah, once we have 516 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: three sixty four days a year of Christmas, then things 517 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: are chilling. We can all work for a day, you know, 518 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: it would be like a nice break. So they had 519 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: movement lawyers and doctors on retainer to provide free services 520 00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: to two people. Um, they help draft dodgers get new 521 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:22,439 Speaker 1: ideas and help get people across the border and just 522 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: basically like if there's like illegal lefty ship that needs 523 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,199 Speaker 1: to happen there there right, And they let anyone use 524 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: their mimiograph machines and so like a lot of these 525 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: like flyers, there's different affinity groups of motherfucker's and they 526 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:37,120 Speaker 1: don't have like a central committee where they're like, oh, 527 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 1: you can't put out that one less it's approved by 528 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: everyone or whatever, right, And they would let people just 529 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: like come in and use their things to make propaganda. 530 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: One thing I found really sweet this is something specifically 531 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: that Ben did. Other people might have done it too, 532 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: But again, I only have two people's voices about all 533 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: of this, you know, And so that's why it focuses 534 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: a lot on on these two characters. Kids who are 535 00:28:57,120 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: having bad trips could come to the Motherfucker's and Ben 536 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: would sit down with them, take acid, meet them where 537 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: they're at, and bring them out of bad trips. And 538 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: they scammed and shoplifted everything they needed. Since they were 539 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: opposed to the commercialization of the countercultural life. They'd shake 540 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: down psychedelic shops to ask for contributions to the cause. 541 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,160 Speaker 1: You're making some money off the movement, you should kick 542 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: some of it back. And they would hit up groceries 543 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: for day olds. And at one point, so this is 544 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 1: a story I don't have a source for. This is um. 545 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: I've hung out a lot in New York, and so 546 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: I have some stuff like orally that I cannot source of. 547 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: Please treat this as a UM. It's not a very 548 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,400 Speaker 1: big radical thing. I just want to always point out 549 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: when I'm like less certain about something I'm saying. At 550 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,800 Speaker 1: one point, they're like getting day olds at some like uptown, 551 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 1: like or midtown or something like some fancy grocery store 552 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: and or like something. They're digging to the garbage or whatever, 553 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: and they get told to funk off, and they were like, 554 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: we see that your store has all of its windows. 555 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: Isn't that cool that your store has all of its windows? 556 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 1: I hope your store always has all over this windows. 557 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: And then they were like, all right, fine, you can 558 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: have our trash it rules. And they wore black biker 559 00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: jackets and carried switchblades you can see why they didn't 560 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: like it, and called hippies yeah, And basically they protected 561 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: the homeless youth dropout culture. They wrote Make Love, but 562 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: Prepare for War. The cops constantly fucked with them. They 563 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,719 Speaker 1: would constantly bust their crash pads looking for drugs. They 564 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: would harass street kids and dropouts, and the motherfucker's would 565 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: organize demos and riots to fight back against those busts, 566 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: all while churning out more and more poetic manifestos about 567 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: the pigs and stuff and one motherfucker walked around panhandling 568 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: with a toilet he grabbed off from the trash, saying 569 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: America ships money, ship here fucking artists, and a cop 570 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: made him drop the toilet and then smashed it up 571 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 1: and then arrested him for littering while the crowd screamed 572 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: enchanted free the toilet. One of the only sources I 573 00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: found that actually discusses the racial makeup of some of 574 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: their events was actually a police source. They threw a 575 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: twenty four hour spring feast at one point, sort of 576 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: a big drug and music gathering at a four floor flophouse, 577 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: and people are like just like fucking in the hallway 578 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 1: kind of under a blanket, and people were like playing 579 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: drums on trash and doing drugs and ship sounds fun. Honestly, 580 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,960 Speaker 1: I'm not even into drugs, but whatever. And undercover report 581 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: says there was about a hundred people in attendance, about 582 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: evenly split between black people and white people. I suspect 583 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: that this leaves out Puerto Rican membership, or rather classifies 584 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: as Puerto Rican membership not by their ethnicity but by 585 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: their perceived race by the police officer, with some of 586 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: those people ending up in the white category and some 587 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: people ending up in the black category. That's my best 588 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: understanding of race and ethnicity around Puerto Rican identity at 589 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: the time in eyes of the State. So that's that's 590 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: we know some of the racial makeup of some of 591 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: their events. They had this long campaign to pressure the 592 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: rock promoter Bill Graham, who ran the film More and 593 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,719 Speaker 1: they wanted him to let the Motherfucker's or the dropout 594 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: community at large have free events at the film war 595 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: once a week. Basically it was like, it's the same thing. 596 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 1: It's like, you're making money off of our culture, off 597 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,760 Speaker 1: of psychedelic culture, so you're gonna give You're gonna kick 598 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 1: something back to the community. We got one night a 599 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: week where it's free. And he was like, no, that's 600 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 1: not fucking happening. I'm not going to do that. And 601 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: so there was threats involved on both sides. Um and 602 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: actually one of these things where no one remembers exactly 603 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: at one of the meetings someone pulled out bullets and 604 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: put them on the desk, and no one remembers which 605 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: side pulled out the bullets to put them on the desk, amazing, 606 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: partly because either side would have done it. Yeah, and 607 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: Eventually they win and either Wednesday or Thursday, everyone's memories 608 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: fucked becomes free nights and it's last a month. There's 609 00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: free bands and free drugs at all of the things. 610 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 1: And the cops are like, if this goes on, the 611 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: fillmore will never opens its doors again. Uh, And it's stopped. 612 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,959 Speaker 1: They stopped getting the free nights. The man. The man 613 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 1: shut them down. They were part of the national movement 614 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: to stop the war as well. These are the folks 615 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: who were like, the Vietnam War is gonna stop or 616 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: we're gonna die, like those the only things that are 617 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: going to happen. And the war in Vietnam was happening 618 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: in their names as Americans, and it was their duty 619 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: to stop it. Some of the motherfucker's went to the 620 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 1: ninety seven Exorcism of the Pentagon, which is when um, 621 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 1: like the Yippies and other people were like, we're gonna 622 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 1: levitate the Pentagon and people put flowers in the barrels 623 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: of guns, and the motherfucker's instead cut open the chain 624 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: link fence and stormed into the Pentagon. They all got 625 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: arrested for it. Um not that many of the crowd 626 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: came with them. They joined the SDS at some point, 627 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 1: this to the STS is the students for Democratic Society, 628 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,680 Speaker 1: which is way more radical than its name sounds. At 629 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: least then I can't actually speak to it now. I'm 630 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:15,080 Speaker 1: not really part of its organizing now. Obviously the motherfucker's 631 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: tended not to be students intended to be more radical 632 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,239 Speaker 1: than what gets talked about his democracy by most people today. 633 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: Although to be fair, most of the STS people were 634 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: also like exactly a lot of Maoist in that group. Yeah, 635 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:32,640 Speaker 1: and while they were they were druggie hippie RC revolutionaries, 636 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,040 Speaker 1: they were actually very distinct from the yippies who were 637 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: kind of the other druggie hippie RC revolutionaries at the time. 638 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: Abby Hoffman, et cetera. We talked about last time a 639 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: little bit specifically in that they were never media darlings, 640 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: and they stayed the funk away from the limelight, and 641 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: they had an unrepeatable name in a noncompromising attitude. And 642 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,279 Speaker 1: I personally think successful movements are made up of like 643 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 1: a variety of strategies and tactics, including both like the 644 00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 1: people who are willing to be left in media darlings. 645 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: Maybe I say that because I'm a fucking podcaster. I 646 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: don't know, but like it's still there's something more beautiful 647 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways about how the motherfucker's handled it, 648 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: and they really pushed in their interactions with black struggle. 649 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: It fits very well into the kind of modern idea 650 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: of accomplices not allies that comes out of a modern 651 00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 1: indigenous Antarctic thought, which is to say that rather than 652 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 1: being united by struggle, um or, we should be united 653 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: by struggle, not just passively supporting someone else's struggle. We 654 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: should work in solidarity with other struggles, rather than seeing 655 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:39,239 Speaker 1: ourselves as purely as some separate support role. Basically like, 656 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: figure out what you need to fight for and fight 657 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,080 Speaker 1: for it alongside of and in conjunction with another struggle. 658 00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 1: One of their flyers was headlined, we don't support the 659 00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: black struggle. Support is not struggle. Support is the evasion 660 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,600 Speaker 1: of struggle and um And then in this way they 661 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,360 Speaker 1: prefigure a lot of the ways that the conversation is 662 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: starting to happen now, which I find really interesting. Yeah, 663 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:05,959 Speaker 1: So it's so interesting. It's a cool way of thinking 664 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, And like, and what matters to me, 665 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,839 Speaker 1: of course, is like, if you're going to frame things 666 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: that way, How did the Panthers feel about it? And like, overall, um, 667 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:19,680 Speaker 1: it seems like the Panthers I am only aware of 668 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: positive interactions between the Motherfucker's and the Panthers. I'm sure 669 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: there were negative interactions as well, but overall it seemed 670 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:31,240 Speaker 1: like a very positive coalition from time to time or whatever. 671 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: And they were like, look, overall, I think they're cool. 672 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: People did cool stuff, but some of them were not 673 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 1: always the most mature people. At an SDS conference, the 674 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: motherfucker Osha, the one who wrote the I hate I 675 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 1: hate that I did all this book, which should be 676 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: fair some of the ship that he did. I'm like, yeah, 677 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: I hate that you did that too. He took the 678 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: mic during some debate about Maoism versus the New Left, 679 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: and he dropped his pants. I was like, Dick is 680 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 1: hanging in the wind, and he is like, this is 681 00:36:55,239 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: all too much intellectual masturbation. You know, the guy I'm 682 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: with you in spirit, buddy, Yeah, I mean it to 683 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: be fair. If you've ever read any of the transcripts 684 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: of the SCS stuff or like read like like seed, 685 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: like the counts of like half the crowd is chanting 686 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: ho ho ho, chi men, and half the chat the 687 00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 1: crowd is chanting Chairman, MAO. Like these guys, I oh god, 688 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: there's somehow like and I say this like having been 689 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: in the DA I was in the d s A 690 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,759 Speaker 1: for like a long time, Like these guys are like 691 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff is more and sufferable than 692 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: then the stuff was happening the d s A, which 693 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: is like really impressive. Yeah, it's yeah, okay, fair no, no, 694 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: it's like yeah, I'm like, I'm I'm with you in spirit. 695 00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: I bet there was too much an electrical masturbation happening 696 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: just just yeah, I don't know if your pants are yeah, 697 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: uh yeah. And and after the conference they wrote a 698 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,880 Speaker 1: report and I'm going to quote it because it's the 699 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: first thing I ever saw from the motherfucker's when I 700 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 1: was a baby. Radical Chapter Report on the SDS Regional 701 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: Council of Arched Tent. A Molotov cocktail. It's a bottle 702 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,600 Speaker 1: filled with three parts. One part it is captain wrapped 703 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: with to use light throw a bottle, fire and explosion 704 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: occur on impact with target. A white radical is three 705 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: parts bullshit and one part hesitation. It is not revolutionary 706 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 1: and should not be stockpiled at this time, respectfully submitted 707 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: up against the wall. Motherfucker. It's probably the best thing 708 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: to come out of an STS conference. Yeah, totally, okay, 709 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,439 Speaker 1: So what okay some of the other ship they did. 710 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: When the Secretary of State came to New York, he 711 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: was met by motherfucker's who had plastic bags filled with 712 00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,840 Speaker 1: cows blood with which he and his entourage were covered. Amazing. 713 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: And then this is the one that I was like, damn, 714 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: this was them in NT there's this concert you might 715 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:57,760 Speaker 1: have heard of gold wood Stock. They didn't organize wood stocks. Okay. 716 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,919 Speaker 1: What Stock famously got rowdy because someone cut the fence 717 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,160 Speaker 1: and people stormed in and the event was suddenly free. 718 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 1: You will be shocked, absolutely that was That was some motherfucker's. 719 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,359 Speaker 1: Oh and when it rained and it got real cold, 720 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 1: and everyone's like kind of fucked because everyone's like covered 721 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:20,960 Speaker 1: in mud and everything sucked. They cut open the back 722 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 1: of a supply tent and passed out three sleeping bags 723 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: that they stole. Amazing. And another thing they did This 724 00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: goes back a year, but I just wanted to point 725 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: out the woodstock thing. In nineteen, after the assassination of 726 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King Columbia University students led by the s 727 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: a S, the Student Afro American Society, and supported by 728 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: the STS the Students for Democratic Society, they took over 729 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,320 Speaker 1: six buildings on campus and briefly held the Dean hostage 730 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,960 Speaker 1: and the motherfucker's were all over it. They led the 731 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: takeover of the Math building, which was like, uh, the 732 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:59,279 Speaker 1: most of the different buildings and like different cultures during 733 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,920 Speaker 1: the takeover, and the Math building was like, I don't know, 734 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,680 Speaker 1: the motherfucker's just sketchy. I'm not sure, you know. Um. 735 00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,879 Speaker 1: And at one point some jocks besieged the library because 736 00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: people have taken over the library and there's like jocks 737 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,440 Speaker 1: people use these It's like what we would probably called 738 00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: chud's now, you know, like, um, right wing people who 739 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: want to fight left wing people. Um, so we come 740 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: up with disparaging terms for them. Uh. Some jocks besieged 741 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:24,759 Speaker 1: the library and they formed a ring around it to 742 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 1: keep the occupiers from entering or exiting and to keep 743 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 1: them from getting supplies like groceries, because they figured the 744 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,359 Speaker 1: hippies wouldn't how to fight. They might have been right, 745 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 1: but the motherfucker's knew how to fight, so they climbed 746 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,839 Speaker 1: out of the math building with groceries in their arms, 747 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: broke the siege and brought groceries into the library. Amazing 748 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: and um. And then this is another one that I 749 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:54,799 Speaker 1: read this but years ago, and I could not I 750 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,440 Speaker 1: cannot find the source again, so consider this apocryphal. But 751 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:00,040 Speaker 1: this was the other thing that I read about. The 752 00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,960 Speaker 1: motherfucker's was always like, I like these people during the occupation, 753 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,120 Speaker 1: while they were building barricades, the motherfucker's wanted to use 754 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:13,240 Speaker 1: all the ancient pottery in the barricades because they figured 755 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,439 Speaker 1: the police won't break through ancient Grecian earns to funk 756 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 1: us up. Amazing, and if they do, the photos will 757 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,640 Speaker 1: be terrible. But they were outvoted by everyone else, who 758 00:41:24,719 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: was like, that's so sad. This this whole thing reminds 759 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:31,000 Speaker 1: me so much of like the dynamics of like the 760 00:41:31,080 --> 00:41:35,359 Speaker 1: Japanese version of this, Like, yeah, it's almost exactly right 761 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: down to literally you have you have a you have 762 00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: a bunch of like nerds who are trying to hold 763 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,759 Speaker 1: a building, and then like the campus administration will try 764 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,399 Speaker 1: to use a bunch of jocks with sticks to try 765 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: to break the occupation. But they can't do it because 766 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: it's nine Japan and every single person in the age 767 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 1: of thirty five notes is like a master street fighter. 768 00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: It's japan rules. Yeah, I And actually if people want 769 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: to know more about that, they can find your episode. 770 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: Do you remember what it's called how to search? How 771 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: someone can search for it and find it if they 772 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 1: want to hear about these, uh some of those Japanese 773 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,319 Speaker 1: student movements. Oh, I think it was. I think it's 774 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 1: in part th th three of my series about Nobusuki Kishi. 775 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: So that's what people should go listen to, the whole, 776 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: the whole many parts. Well, by the way, just wording 777 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,759 Speaker 1: on that part, it's well part one also what part 778 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:34,040 Speaker 1: two of that is absolutely brutal. Um, It's one of 779 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: the worst things I've ever done and I've ever read. 780 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, so wren on that. But part three has 781 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people just whacking each other with sticks 782 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: and yeah, can you it's awful, but can you spell 783 00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 1: the names of people? Can search it? I actually really 784 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,360 Speaker 1: want people to hear. Oh, yeah, this is behind the 785 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 1: Bastards and it's n O b U, s U k 786 00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: E and then Kishi k I s h I. I 787 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,319 Speaker 1: think I think that the episode was titled like, yeah, 788 00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:09,800 Speaker 1: that the slavery loving fasci Boop built Modern Japan. Okay, yeah, 789 00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 1: well that's not one of our sponsors. But although I 790 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:17,040 Speaker 1: don't know, I wonder if Behind the Bastards ever ends 791 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 1: up advertised on this show. I'm not sure there's like 792 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:27,279 Speaker 1: an event. Maybe in general, not really, but we are 793 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,360 Speaker 1: sponsored by the concept of if you are not currently 794 00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:33,439 Speaker 1: carrying your firearm, it needs to be locked the funk 795 00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 1: up if you want to be someone who carries owns 796 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,040 Speaker 1: a firearm, which not everyone should be, but some people 797 00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: choose to for very good reasons. In this very dark 798 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 1: and troubled world we live in, they need to be 799 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,280 Speaker 1: locked the funk up when you're not carrying them directly 800 00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: on your person. That is the new I'll go back 801 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,920 Speaker 1: to fun stuff at some point. Here's some other stuff, 802 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:05,680 Speaker 1: and we are back. And so the Motherfucker's They are 803 00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:10,359 Speaker 1: a star that shone brightly and not for incredibly long. 804 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:16,600 Speaker 1: Much like late sixties radicalism in general, some groups managed 805 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 1: to hold on into the mid seventies, although usually by 806 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:23,280 Speaker 1: going underground and having very different tactical ideas. The slow 807 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: end of The Motherfucker's was a little bit hard to trace. 808 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:30,680 Speaker 1: Much like everything abouse about these motherfucking motherfucker's, everyone has 809 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,600 Speaker 1: faulty memories. All the books are biased. Repression was a 810 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,239 Speaker 1: big part of it, no matter what, no matter who 811 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 1: you ask, they were starting to become well uncontrollable. They 812 00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,320 Speaker 1: were blocking off entire blocks from the police, so police 813 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 1: had us started hitting harder everywhere they could. Like basically, 814 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,520 Speaker 1: the Lower East Side was starting to become more and 815 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: more of a autonomous zone in a lot of ways. 816 00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:55,799 Speaker 1: UM and arrested folks were getting brutalized in jail, and 817 00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,400 Speaker 1: I believe that the Puerto Rican street kids when they arrested, 818 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 1: got the uh the worst of that. The some of 819 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,359 Speaker 1: the motherfucker's were indicted, and actually it's worth pointing out 820 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,160 Speaker 1: that at this point, by this point, it seems like 821 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 1: and I'm not certain about this, but by the names 822 00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,879 Speaker 1: of the motherfucker's who are listed in the different things 823 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 1: that I've read, it seems like the majority of the 824 00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:23,239 Speaker 1: motherfucker's are now actually um Puerto Rican folks. And some 825 00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:26,520 Speaker 1: of the motherfucker's were indicted in the Chicago nineteen Democratic 826 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,919 Speaker 1: National Convention protests. And these are like these like felony, 827 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,360 Speaker 1: bad ship charges. Ben didn't even make it all the 828 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,959 Speaker 1: way to Chicago because the Feds were stopping every blue 829 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,760 Speaker 1: VW bus they saw with like a picture of him 830 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:40,719 Speaker 1: trying to trying to grab him before he got there. 831 00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:44,840 Speaker 1: And in New York, the mean streets were getting meaner. 832 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,480 Speaker 1: Hard drugs started to replace lsd U. Instead of happy, 833 00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:52,920 Speaker 1: drunken fun times, it became mean, drunken, mean times. There 834 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,840 Speaker 1: was more like broken bottle fights and less utopian visioning. 835 00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 1: At one point, a car a dudes rolled up on 836 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,200 Speaker 1: Ben and he and they were like, hey, we've been 837 00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,959 Speaker 1: hired to kill you. We're going to kill you now. 838 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,279 Speaker 1: And then like fifteen people showed up to Ben to 839 00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,279 Speaker 1: support Ben. And Ben was like okay, let's see what 840 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,120 Speaker 1: you got. And the guys were like, no, never mind 841 00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:16,920 Speaker 1: me change their mind. We're actually gonna be And there 842 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: was a tension. This one fascinated me. There's a tension 843 00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,040 Speaker 1: between the East Coast LSD movement and the West Coast 844 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:27,320 Speaker 1: LSD movement. And you would think, based on like aesthetics 845 00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,200 Speaker 1: and ship and like reputation, the West Coast LSD movement 846 00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: with its tight eye and its peace and love and 847 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,560 Speaker 1: stuff versus the East Coast movement, which is like black 848 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,400 Speaker 1: biker jackets and handguns. You know, you're like, all right, 849 00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 1: clearly the West Coast LSD folks are nicer. No, No, 850 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:52,239 Speaker 1: the West Coast LSD movement, exemplified by ken KIZI thought 851 00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,719 Speaker 1: dosing people without their consent was cool and good. The 852 00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,319 Speaker 1: East Coast movement, who weren't pure fucking evil, And let's 853 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,160 Speaker 1: be clear, dosing people without their consent is pure fucking evil. 854 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 1: CI A ship, Yeah, I fucking hate you forever if 855 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,320 Speaker 1: you do. This is exemplified by Timothy Leary and supported 856 00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:12,640 Speaker 1: by the motherfucker's who all knew each other. And this 857 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,040 Speaker 1: is actually apparently part of why Timothy Leary and Kenkisi 858 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:19,120 Speaker 1: fell out. Good fuck anyway, whatever I read about that, 859 00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,200 Speaker 1: and I was like, holy shit, that rules that the 860 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,359 Speaker 1: fucking proto punks and the jackets were the ones who 861 00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:26,840 Speaker 1: are like, no, what is wrong with um? We believe 862 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,759 Speaker 1: in this ship, We believe in acid, we believe in 863 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,560 Speaker 1: opening the doors of perception, but we believe in a 864 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:33,040 Speaker 1: very different way than you, yeah, would, which is interesting 865 00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:34,840 Speaker 1: because it's like, you know, if if you look at 866 00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: what happened to these guys, at ideological successors. It's the 867 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,719 Speaker 1: punks who are like still cool to this day, and 868 00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:41,920 Speaker 1: that the ideological successors of the West Coast people are 869 00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:45,080 Speaker 1: like Peter Thiel and like a bunch of people who 870 00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,879 Speaker 1: vote Republican. There are cool hippies, and I actually think 871 00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,080 Speaker 1: that some of the like um, especially some of the 872 00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,319 Speaker 1: like rural and lower class like hippie and burner and 873 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,120 Speaker 1: side trance and like, there are there are actually these 874 00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,960 Speaker 1: like really interesting people who are kind of like still 875 00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,600 Speaker 1: really on the psychedelic page in a kind of interesting way. 876 00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:07,000 Speaker 1: But I don't know, I don't know why I just 877 00:48:07,000 --> 00:48:10,400 Speaker 1: suddenly gotten really defensive of hippies. Um, some of my 878 00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:14,239 Speaker 1: friends are poor hippies and they rule you actually might 879 00:48:14,239 --> 00:48:16,840 Speaker 1: my aunt, well, okay, so my my aunt and my 880 00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 1: uncle who am buried to each other. My aunt was 881 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,960 Speaker 1: a flower child and my uncle was an sts is 882 00:48:21,040 --> 00:48:24,600 Speaker 1: like a high schooler. They have some they did, they 883 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:30,080 Speaker 1: got up to some stuff. Yeah, But I don't know. 884 00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,239 Speaker 1: I feel like I got both of the sort of 885 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:36,439 Speaker 1: like both supposed to both the cool hippies and also 886 00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,640 Speaker 1: the like what are you guys doing hippies? So I 887 00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:41,520 Speaker 1: have like a bad hippie taste. In my mouth. No 888 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:44,560 Speaker 1: fair enough. I mean, who doesn't have a bad hippie taste? 889 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:50,680 Speaker 1: Now I'm like, okay, anyway, the jokes they write themselves 890 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:55,479 Speaker 1: and you the listener's mind. So, uh, ships getting rougher 891 00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:57,480 Speaker 1: and rougher. On the Lower east Side, violence is getting 892 00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:01,759 Speaker 1: more regular from the police and from anti hippie CRUs um. 893 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:05,760 Speaker 1: And actually, the motherfucker's started going to Boston to defend 894 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:07,520 Speaker 1: the freaks there because the freaks there were hanging out 895 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,800 Speaker 1: in these parks and we're getting jumped by chud's basically, uh, 896 00:49:12,000 --> 00:49:15,560 Speaker 1: nine sixties shuds, Marines and crews of right wing dudes 897 00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,320 Speaker 1: who are while they're just trying to hang out in 898 00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,200 Speaker 1: the park or whatever. So the motherfucker's show up and 899 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,040 Speaker 1: they're like, all right, well, we'll defend you, and they fight. 900 00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:27,319 Speaker 1: It's like there's like weird fucking sharks versus jets. It's 901 00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,520 Speaker 1: like knives versus baseball bats. They like motherfucker's of knives 902 00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:34,520 Speaker 1: and the Marines of baseball bats. And Ben gets arrested 903 00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,120 Speaker 1: for stabbing one of these people. He spends two weeks 904 00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,359 Speaker 1: in jail, and he gets found not guilty by way 905 00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,600 Speaker 1: of self defense. A single juror held out and convinced 906 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:46,120 Speaker 1: the other eleven jurors who originally were like, yeah, suck him. Um. 907 00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,200 Speaker 1: The single juror held out was like, no, that's self defense, 908 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:50,960 Speaker 1: which I guess we should. We should put it up 909 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,759 Speaker 1: plug here for two things. One if if you, if 910 00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,239 Speaker 1: you ever are doing jury duty and you get you 911 00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,840 Speaker 1: actually have to do it, you could be that juror. 912 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:02,480 Speaker 1: And the second thing is google a nullification. I'm so 913 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,759 Speaker 1: annoyed that I can't just write a letter back and 914 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:08,400 Speaker 1: be like I am an anarchist. This won't work. I 915 00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:10,520 Speaker 1: have to, like I would have to like show up 916 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,239 Speaker 1: before they would be like, oh wait, no, never mind, 917 00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:14,319 Speaker 1: we don't want you. Yeah yeah, well yeah you have 918 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:16,880 Speaker 1: to show up and say journalification like twelve times and 919 00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:22,840 Speaker 1: then you go home. Yeah, I mean, or do jury 920 00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:26,360 Speaker 1: duty if if you can whatever, mind remind me to 921 00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:30,400 Speaker 1: tell you my really fun jury duty story. Ha ha. 922 00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:32,239 Speaker 1: You all don't get to listen to it, only Ben. 923 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:38,120 Speaker 1: Then Ben's the character that me and me I get 924 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,840 Speaker 1: to hear it. So they go and they're they're defending 925 00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:44,680 Speaker 1: hippies and other places, but they get more and more 926 00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:47,359 Speaker 1: street gang and kind of a bad way, um, which 927 00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,480 Speaker 1: is pretty much always a problem when organizing along these lines. 928 00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:52,000 Speaker 1: I think that's actually one of the things that's really 929 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:55,319 Speaker 1: interesting about nineteen sixties fifties movements as you get a 930 00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,799 Speaker 1: lot of really rad ship coming out of gangs and 931 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:03,719 Speaker 1: then also appearing back into bad ship. Um, and there's 932 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,280 Speaker 1: like this interesting tension that has always been the case 933 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,680 Speaker 1: within US gang culture of people being like, oh, we 934 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:14,960 Speaker 1: can have power, but in what context? In what ways? Yeah? 935 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:16,640 Speaker 1: I mean I I think I talked about this before 936 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:18,920 Speaker 1: in other shows, but there's there's a huge example that's 937 00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,400 Speaker 1: in Brazil, which is there's a group called Red Command, 938 00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:24,880 Speaker 1: which used to be this like marcis Lenningist like internal 939 00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:27,880 Speaker 1: prison movement that just sort of like stopped being a 940 00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:31,959 Speaker 1: markhis Lenningist group and is just a gang now yeah, 941 00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:37,800 Speaker 1: and is very it's very very pleak. Yeah, yeah, this happens. 942 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:39,319 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just it's just sort of like 943 00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:42,279 Speaker 1: a dynamic that happens when you have a bunch of 944 00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:46,080 Speaker 1: people who are armed and also there's now drug money 945 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,960 Speaker 1: that that can that that that can lead very bad places. 946 00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:54,200 Speaker 1: Yet don't don't fund your movement via drug money. Bad idea. 947 00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:56,560 Speaker 1: And you know, it's interesting I actually haven't found any 948 00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,960 Speaker 1: information that the motherfucker's are actually involved in uh dealing. 949 00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:04,400 Speaker 1: I have no idea. Clearly drugs were happening in large scale, 950 00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:06,600 Speaker 1: and they were distributing drugs, and large scale, I please, 951 00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:10,760 Speaker 1: largely for free. And I think they were funding I think, 952 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:12,799 Speaker 1: But people haven't talked about the specifics of this in 953 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,719 Speaker 1: a way that's accessible to me. It seems like they 954 00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,240 Speaker 1: were using petty theft in order to buy the drugs 955 00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,799 Speaker 1: to give to people rather than selling drugs. And but 956 00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:23,680 Speaker 1: I don't know. But yeah, no in general, But yeah, 957 00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, because it didn't In the end, it 958 00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,120 Speaker 1: was not sustainable for where they were in New York. Um, 959 00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:32,160 Speaker 1: it started getting more and more gang violence stuff. At 960 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:35,480 Speaker 1: one point they're their main crash pad, one of the 961 00:52:35,520 --> 00:52:37,680 Speaker 1: affinity groups, their main crash pad burned down and they 962 00:52:37,719 --> 00:52:41,040 Speaker 1: like started crashing in a rented apartment. Some of the 963 00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:44,319 Speaker 1: like kids in the group or graffitiing the hallway. So 964 00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:48,000 Speaker 1: the landlord through acid into the kid's face, uh and 965 00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,760 Speaker 1: permanently disfigured him. So they so they killed the landlord. 966 00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:58,759 Speaker 1: And that's just some bad escalation of bad ship. And 967 00:52:58,920 --> 00:53:01,239 Speaker 1: from my point of view, six years later, I wasn't 968 00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:05,160 Speaker 1: working there too. Soon two new gangs moved into the area, 969 00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:08,040 Speaker 1: biker gangs, and all three went to war, and the 970 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,920 Speaker 1: motherfucker's were like, it's time to get out, So so 971 00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:15,160 Speaker 1: they relied on their countercultural connections, the living Theater, the 972 00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,160 Speaker 1: Anarco Pacifists, who kind of got some of them into anarchism. 973 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,400 Speaker 1: They got they got them a school bus. Uh. The 974 00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:25,000 Speaker 1: guy who named the Yippies, his name's Paul Krasner, got 975 00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,239 Speaker 1: them three thousand dollars for gas and expenses, which is 976 00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:31,800 Speaker 1: actually a fun ton of money. Um. Yeah, And they 977 00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,439 Speaker 1: filled up the bus with motherfucker's, especially the street kids, 978 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:37,640 Speaker 1: apparently because part of their whole thing was that they 979 00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,839 Speaker 1: were like trying to take care of these homeless youth, right, 980 00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:43,600 Speaker 1: And they headed out to New Mexico. And what's really 981 00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:45,719 Speaker 1: funny and actually, in a year earlier, he had actually 982 00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,120 Speaker 1: taken a bunch of kids out to California, like drop 983 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:50,479 Speaker 1: out kids. And one version of the story he stole 984 00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:52,000 Speaker 1: credit cards and bought a bunch of cars. And another 985 00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:53,680 Speaker 1: version of the story, he just stole a bunch of cars. 986 00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,920 Speaker 1: I don't know, he crimed himself some cars drove the 987 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:01,919 Speaker 1: kids somewhere safe, let them be, and then drove back 988 00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:03,479 Speaker 1: to where he wanted to keep being in a weird 989 00:54:03,719 --> 00:54:08,360 Speaker 1: fucking street art street gang. Um, when they go to 990 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,440 Speaker 1: New Mexico, all these hippies are moving to New Mexico 991 00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,520 Speaker 1: to join the peace and love hippie communes are starting 992 00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:18,319 Speaker 1: to crop up there. This is not where the motherfucker's go. No, 993 00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,760 Speaker 1: they went to go join the Chicano movement, a militant 994 00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:27,240 Speaker 1: movement called Alianza Federal de Mercedes UM or Alianza Alliance 995 00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:32,200 Speaker 1: for short, and Alonzo was trying to restore land rights 996 00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:34,880 Speaker 1: to indigenous people have been displaced by Spanish conquest and 997 00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:38,360 Speaker 1: like restore some ship as related to um. When the 998 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:42,319 Speaker 1: U S stole New Mexico from Mexico, which they had 999 00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:46,480 Speaker 1: stolen from the indigenous people two years earlier, Alianza had 1000 00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,239 Speaker 1: rated a courthouse, freed prisoners, killed a jailer in a 1001 00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:53,920 Speaker 1: cop and gotten away. Hell yeah, the lead guy was 1002 00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:58,040 Speaker 1: in jail for this. He got caught eventually. Um, but 1003 00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:03,120 Speaker 1: Alianza was like, yeah, we'll take armed hippies. Yeah, because 1004 00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:05,960 Speaker 1: like I forgot to mention it earlier that it slipped 1005 00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:07,480 Speaker 1: out of my script somewhere. They had like a bunch 1006 00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:10,440 Speaker 1: of like sawed off shotguns under their floorboards and like 1007 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:12,880 Speaker 1: that the whole time. Um and they but it got 1008 00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:14,600 Speaker 1: more and more stressful for them every time they have 1009 00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:16,040 Speaker 1: to like move crash pads and they'd have to like 1010 00:55:16,760 --> 00:55:19,040 Speaker 1: un hide their stash of firearms and move it to 1011 00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:23,560 Speaker 1: the next place, and and uh. Which is funny because 1012 00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,240 Speaker 1: like the current gun culture acts like America has always 1013 00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,839 Speaker 1: been crazy armed. We are way more crazy armed now 1014 00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:34,960 Speaker 1: than we were in the late sixties, way more. Anyway, 1015 00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,359 Speaker 1: Alianza is like, yeah, we'll take you fucking hippies. We're 1016 00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:38,800 Speaker 1: waiting and kind of waiting for our chance to do 1017 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:41,000 Speaker 1: our thing again. We're happy to have you around. The 1018 00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:43,160 Speaker 1: motherfucker's like, yeah, we want to like throw down for 1019 00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:46,080 Speaker 1: the rev and live off grid. And they were really 1020 00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:48,439 Speaker 1: shitty at being back to the Landers, but they gave 1021 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,840 Speaker 1: it their all and then they kind of start drifting 1022 00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:53,759 Speaker 1: apart at this point. I mean, a lot of them 1023 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,279 Speaker 1: I don't even think came with them, right, But some 1024 00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:00,120 Speaker 1: of the motherfucker's formed their own like bandit gangs just 1025 00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:02,000 Speaker 1: kind of unrelated to everything else. They were like look 1026 00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:03,359 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, because some of them 1027 00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:05,759 Speaker 1: were like kind of like more like I'm an art guy, 1028 00:56:05,920 --> 00:56:07,840 Speaker 1: and some of them were like, I'm a crime girl, 1029 00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:09,560 Speaker 1: and some of them were like, I'm just a fucking 1030 00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:12,279 Speaker 1: like I'm into gang ship. And you know, it's like 1031 00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:16,800 Speaker 1: they're all very different backgrounds, and as each person felt, 1032 00:56:16,920 --> 00:56:19,880 Speaker 1: some of them drifted off to become bandits, many of 1033 00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,319 Speaker 1: whom died pretty immediately and like shootouts with the cops 1034 00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:27,960 Speaker 1: and stuff. One died because he his leg got hurt 1035 00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:30,279 Speaker 1: and he refused to go to a doctor, uh, and 1036 00:56:30,480 --> 00:56:33,360 Speaker 1: he got got infected and then he died as steps us. 1037 00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:36,000 Speaker 1: Many of them drifted away to go be hippies at 1038 00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,359 Speaker 1: the Piece and love hippie communes. After like a year 1039 00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:42,239 Speaker 1: of hanging out, we're like neighbors who didn't like the 1040 00:56:42,360 --> 00:56:45,480 Speaker 1: radicals would shoot at them and ship Ocean Newman at 1041 00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:48,160 Speaker 1: this point, the the other person who I have a 1042 00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,319 Speaker 1: lot of his writing about UM. He went and lived 1043 00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:53,400 Speaker 1: at a hippie commune UM, and later he became the 1044 00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:58,600 Speaker 1: movement lawyer Ben Maria. He lived anonymously for thirty eight 1045 00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:02,560 Speaker 1: years out west. He just was like, I'm good. He 1046 00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:04,480 Speaker 1: spent a while like him and his wife, who's like 1047 00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:06,280 Speaker 1: left out of all the writing. I think on purpose 1048 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,879 Speaker 1: because she's like also into this anonymous thing, you know. Um, 1049 00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,320 Speaker 1: they like just ride around on horses for you like 1050 00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,520 Speaker 1: fucking years, and then they're like, funk it, let's become 1051 00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:21,600 Speaker 1: homesteaders and their homesteads for a long time and and 1052 00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,720 Speaker 1: the motherfucker's are done. But their legacy lives on in 1053 00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:28,840 Speaker 1: so many ways. Basically, I promised you this is how 1054 00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,600 Speaker 1: the aesthetics of punk rock come to be. Black Mask 1055 00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:35,520 Speaker 1: influenced a sister project in the UK called King Mob. 1056 00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,120 Speaker 1: I didn't include King Mob as much because honestly, a 1057 00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:42,080 Speaker 1: lot of their rhetoric is more sexist and I'll probably 1058 00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:44,240 Speaker 1: talk at some point they'll probably end up in something 1059 00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:46,560 Speaker 1: at some point they weren't like, I don't know whatever. 1060 00:57:48,200 --> 00:57:51,320 Speaker 1: King Mob directly influenced Malcolm McLaren, who's the guy who 1061 00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,640 Speaker 1: produced the Sex Pistols and the New York Dolls, like 1062 00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:57,120 Speaker 1: the guy who basically like kind of did a lot 1063 00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:59,760 Speaker 1: of the punk ship and all traces back to Black Mask. 1064 00:57:59,880 --> 00:58:03,560 Speaker 1: The aesthetics of their publications and ship give us punk rock. 1065 00:58:03,640 --> 00:58:05,640 Speaker 1: And I think it's cool because then we can trade 1066 00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,240 Speaker 1: trace Black Mask back to its roots to the anarchists 1067 00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:10,960 Speaker 1: of the Spanish Civil War. At one point Ben met 1068 00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:12,840 Speaker 1: with some old vets from the Youth Brigade and the 1069 00:58:12,880 --> 00:58:17,040 Speaker 1: Spanish Civil War and they're like, motherfucker's were motherfucker's too, 1070 00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:23,080 Speaker 1: where we're the sons of horse rooms. Yeah, and like, 1071 00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:27,600 Speaker 1: because this spirit has been part of these movements, even 1072 00:58:27,680 --> 00:58:33,600 Speaker 1: like like the anarchic spirit within anarchy, within larger anarchist movements, 1073 00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,280 Speaker 1: you know, the like the slightly more fuck you crowd, 1074 00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:38,960 Speaker 1: but they're the fuck you crowd who doesn't want to 1075 00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:42,880 Speaker 1: dose people and like it just looks out and protects people. Whatever. 1076 00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:46,280 Speaker 1: I'm really excited that I can't keep thinking about that 1077 00:58:46,400 --> 00:58:51,840 Speaker 1: line that was like hip what was it was? Yeah, 1078 00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,240 Speaker 1: hippies are being people pretending to be nice, and punks 1079 00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:58,400 Speaker 1: are nice people. These people are like the hippie bogs. Yeah, 1080 00:58:58,520 --> 00:59:02,200 Speaker 1: totally totally And they were like they are mean. They 1081 00:59:02,200 --> 00:59:04,840 Speaker 1: are nice people pretending to be mean, and they fucking 1082 00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,080 Speaker 1: did it up. And and I'm gonna end with something 1083 00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:10,800 Speaker 1: that Ben Murray has said in an interview more recently. 1084 00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,160 Speaker 1: Part of the reason I re emerged after more than 1085 00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:16,640 Speaker 1: thirty years of anonymity to talk about what we did 1086 00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:18,720 Speaker 1: back in the nineteen sixties is the fact that things 1087 00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:20,840 Speaker 1: have gotten so bad in the US. It's at the 1088 00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:22,840 Speaker 1: point where you can't ignore it. It's worse than ever. 1089 00:59:23,680 --> 00:59:25,680 Speaker 1: I figured that I'd start letting people know about our 1090 00:59:25,760 --> 00:59:28,120 Speaker 1: history and then go from there. All I can tell 1091 00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:30,720 Speaker 1: people is that when I looked, when it looked pretty 1092 00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:33,040 Speaker 1: dismal in the past, we took action and it did 1093 00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:36,200 Speaker 1: have an effect. A lot was achieved. And yet a 1094 00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:38,440 Speaker 1: few years beforehand, no one would have expected that we 1095 00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:42,480 Speaker 1: could take on the behemoth of American capitalism. It's counterproductive 1096 00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:45,560 Speaker 1: to sit back and say you can't do anything. It's 1097 00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,800 Speaker 1: not my place to tell people exactly what they should do. 1098 00:59:48,440 --> 00:59:50,480 Speaker 1: But there has always been some way to respond and 1099 00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:56,600 Speaker 1: take to take action. Just look around and like that. 1100 00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:59,880 Speaker 1: That that is a great line. And the stuff that 1101 00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:01,960 Speaker 1: I talks about that they accomplished, you know, because he 1102 01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:05,840 Speaker 1: came he came out of anonymity, because because the history 1103 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,160 Speaker 1: was not there or was there in ways that did 1104 01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:13,080 Speaker 1: not match his understanding of what had happened. Um, that's 1105 01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:16,919 Speaker 1: my most diplomatic way of saying this. And he talks 1106 01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:20,880 Speaker 1: about how like, look, there's a cultural difference. Um, you 1107 01:00:20,960 --> 01:00:24,000 Speaker 1: know they were they started off with of the US. 1108 01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:28,120 Speaker 1: As for the Vietnam War, right, but compared to the 1109 01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:30,600 Speaker 1: percent of the US that was against the Iraq War, like, 1110 01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:38,560 Speaker 1: they they did make cultural change. Um, not these fifty people, 1111 01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:43,080 Speaker 1: although yes them too, but this movement that they threw 1112 01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:48,160 Speaker 1: their fucking all into. Um. And I think it's worth 1113 01:00:48,240 --> 01:00:50,680 Speaker 1: noting something about a rock right if you look, if 1114 01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:53,320 Speaker 1: you go back to like I remembered part of but 1115 01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:57,240 Speaker 1: if you go back to the plans for the Iraq War, 1116 01:00:57,320 --> 01:01:00,840 Speaker 1: a huge part of like and like why the Iraqua 1117 01:01:00,920 --> 01:01:02,880 Speaker 1: went the course it did. Also the reason they didn't 1118 01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:05,800 Speaker 1: just sort of like like the US killed an enormous 1119 01:01:05,840 --> 01:01:08,800 Speaker 1: number of people in the rock, right, the US also 1120 01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:13,480 Speaker 1: didn't do sort of like Vietnam style saturation bombing and 1121 01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:15,560 Speaker 1: part of the real and this is everything right that 1122 01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:16,920 Speaker 1: the you know, part part of us how to do 1123 01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:21,280 Speaker 1: with neoliberal ideology, but like we actually didn't send physically 1124 01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:23,920 Speaker 1: that many troops there. And and you know this, this 1125 01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:25,800 Speaker 1: whole thing was always packages like we're going to set 1126 01:01:25,840 --> 01:01:28,120 Speaker 1: in like a surgical team. It's it's gonna be like 1127 01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:30,200 Speaker 1: a smaller invasion force. And you know, if you if 1128 01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:32,440 Speaker 1: you can listen back to like like if you go 1129 01:01:32,520 --> 01:01:34,400 Speaker 1: back and read the arguments about it like the generals 1130 01:01:34,440 --> 01:01:36,120 Speaker 1: think this is a bad idea, but the Bush administration 1131 01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:38,360 Speaker 1: specifically pushes for this. And the reason they do that 1132 01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:40,960 Speaker 1: is because that they think if they if they actually 1133 01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:43,240 Speaker 1: try to send like five million people into a rock, 1134 01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:45,440 Speaker 1: there's going to be there's going to be an uprising. 1135 01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:48,080 Speaker 1: And that that is like, you know, that that is 1136 01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:50,840 Speaker 1: in sometimes an enduring legacy of Vietnam of like like 1137 01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:53,760 Speaker 1: the U. S. Military is scared to unleach its actual 1138 01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:56,960 Speaker 1: full capacity because they're still sort of they're still haunted 1139 01:01:57,000 --> 01:02:00,360 Speaker 1: by the memory of like half of there are being 1140 01:02:00,400 --> 01:02:05,080 Speaker 1: in revolt, and that that that's a real gain that's invisible. Right, 1141 01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:07,680 Speaker 1: It's almost impossible unless you're sort of like you know, 1142 01:02:07,720 --> 01:02:09,600 Speaker 1: because because like because the Rock world was like it 1143 01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:11,560 Speaker 1: was a horror right, and same with the war in Afghanistan, 1144 01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:15,280 Speaker 1: Like these things were horror shows. But you know, if 1145 01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:16,840 Speaker 1: if you if you look at their sort of war 1146 01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:22,800 Speaker 1: planning doctors, like this could have actually been way worse. Yeah, 1147 01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:25,680 Speaker 1: And that's the thing I think it is really really 1148 01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:29,560 Speaker 1: not understood very well. And there was a branch of 1149 01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:31,640 Speaker 1: like you know, this is actually really this is this 1150 01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:33,120 Speaker 1: is a group of people who Trump comes from. But 1151 01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:34,960 Speaker 1: there was a branch of people who were like harder 1152 01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:38,360 Speaker 1: core than the neo kons, who were like like Midge Dector, 1153 01:02:38,400 --> 01:02:40,680 Speaker 1: people who are talking about like this thing called they 1154 01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:43,000 Speaker 1: called like the Nicaragua option, which is like we're gonna 1155 01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:45,640 Speaker 1: kill like one and every ten people like where you 1156 01:02:45,680 --> 01:02:47,000 Speaker 1: know this is where yeah, and and then and the 1157 01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:49,400 Speaker 1: US doesn't do it right, like it doesn't kill like 1158 01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:51,480 Speaker 1: every person in the Rock And the reason they don't 1159 01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:54,680 Speaker 1: do that has a lot to do with this kind 1160 01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:57,120 Speaker 1: of stuff in ways that are just sort of invisible now. 1161 01:02:57,240 --> 01:03:00,840 Speaker 1: But did happen? No, that's so interesting to me, Like 1162 01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:05,160 Speaker 1: I I I I hadn't considered from that point of view. 1163 01:03:05,240 --> 01:03:07,760 Speaker 1: I think about because like I threw a lot of 1164 01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:12,160 Speaker 1: work into UM trying to stop the Rock War as 1165 01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:14,800 Speaker 1: part of a movement that you know, used direct action 1166 01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:17,200 Speaker 1: to interrupt the flows of capital and and you know, 1167 01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:20,480 Speaker 1: we were very proud of our like tactical winds, right, 1168 01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:24,200 Speaker 1: but in the end we were like we threw the 1169 01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:27,880 Speaker 1: largest day of demonstrations the world has ever seen and 1170 01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:32,560 Speaker 1: it didn't change anything. We you know, UM Portland kind 1171 01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:35,320 Speaker 1: of came in second, like the Bay shut down for 1172 01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:37,560 Speaker 1: like three days. We only shut down Portland for like 1173 01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:40,200 Speaker 1: twelve hours or something, you know, but we shut down 1174 01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:45,480 Speaker 1: like every highway in Portland and like UM and massive 1175 01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:48,640 Speaker 1: numbers of the city just came out and you know, 1176 01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:52,160 Speaker 1: use diversity of tactics and and we're all proud. But 1177 01:03:52,200 --> 01:03:54,160 Speaker 1: then we were like, well, we didn't do ship. It's 1178 01:03:54,480 --> 01:03:57,320 Speaker 1: it was very demoralizing. And one of the things that 1179 01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:01,960 Speaker 1: I've been UM learning as I get older is the 1180 01:04:02,040 --> 01:04:04,800 Speaker 1: impacts that we did have UM that I didn't see. 1181 01:04:05,080 --> 01:04:08,200 Speaker 1: There's an essay called The Shock of Victory by Graber 1182 01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:12,120 Speaker 1: that talks about this UM that did me a lot 1183 01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:14,160 Speaker 1: of good because it talks about the things that the 1184 01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,480 Speaker 1: altar globalization movement that I was also part of UM 1185 01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:20,800 Speaker 1: succeeded at and ending sort of parts of the neoliberal consensus. 1186 01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:22,600 Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, thank god, all my trauma 1187 01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:28,160 Speaker 1: isn't literally for nothing. Yeah, And I think it's it's 1188 01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:36,480 Speaker 1: really it's really, really, really difficult to see how things 1189 01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:38,920 Speaker 1: could have been worse, because it's because it's really bad 1190 01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:40,920 Speaker 1: if you look at how bad everything is, right, yeah, 1191 01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:43,600 Speaker 1: but it's like you know, like the there there you know, 1192 01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:46,400 Speaker 1: for example, like that there is a world where the 1193 01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:49,000 Speaker 1: US sends like ten millions. I don't know what that 1194 01:04:49,120 --> 01:04:51,040 Speaker 1: dot that time, but the US sends like an enormous 1195 01:04:51,120 --> 01:04:53,360 Speaker 1: army into a rock. They roll over a rock and 1196 01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:56,560 Speaker 1: you know, bush bush pushed into a rock, right, like 1197 01:04:56,920 --> 01:05:00,919 Speaker 1: there are there are worlds that are in enormously worse 1198 01:05:00,920 --> 01:05:03,040 Speaker 1: than this. There's there's the world. I mean like for 1199 01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:05,360 Speaker 1: a while, like there there were there were real calls 1200 01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,480 Speaker 1: so like to start dropping nukes in a rock vour 1201 01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:12,040 Speaker 1: like and that that like you know, it the fact 1202 01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:13,840 Speaker 1: that it could have been worse doesn't midicate how bad 1203 01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:18,480 Speaker 1: it was. But it's really really hard to see, you know, 1204 01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:21,000 Speaker 1: and stuff like the fact that like ever like no, 1205 01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:23,560 Speaker 1: like the US hasn't been able to do like bilateral 1206 01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:26,880 Speaker 1: trade agreements anymore really like we have well not bilateral, sorry, 1207 01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:28,680 Speaker 1: they haven't been able to do like the sort of 1208 01:05:28,800 --> 01:05:32,160 Speaker 1: massive NAFTA style trading con front that they tried one 1209 01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:33,360 Speaker 1: in the East Asia and it didn't wait, it fell 1210 01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:36,520 Speaker 1: through which it didn't collapse, it didn't work, and it's 1211 01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:39,840 Speaker 1: it's really difficult to see that that that probably saved 1212 01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:42,840 Speaker 1: an enormous number of lives, but will never you know, 1213 01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:46,720 Speaker 1: we'll never know how many because you know, because we 1214 01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:49,200 Speaker 1: didn't because that reality didn't happen. Yeah, no, totally. And 1215 01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:52,960 Speaker 1: and then even you know, like thinking back through all 1216 01:05:52,960 --> 01:05:56,880 Speaker 1: this stuff they did right, Like every kid who came 1217 01:05:56,920 --> 01:05:59,400 Speaker 1: in and was like I'm having a bad trip and 1218 01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:02,400 Speaker 1: got pulled out of it by a motherfucker who was like, great, 1219 01:06:02,440 --> 01:06:06,080 Speaker 1: I'm inexperienced trips that are you know, um or like, 1220 01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:10,080 Speaker 1: and every draft dodger who got a new I D 1221 01:06:10,960 --> 01:06:16,520 Speaker 1: is one less soldier in Vietnam, one less at least 1222 01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:18,720 Speaker 1: one less dead person on one side or the other, 1223 01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:22,320 Speaker 1: you know, like, and every meal that you feed for 1224 01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:24,920 Speaker 1: three people is three hundred people didn't go hungry that night. 1225 01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:29,720 Speaker 1: And so it's like it's cool to like recognize both 1226 01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:33,880 Speaker 1: of the immediate direct winds and the long term effects, 1227 01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:38,080 Speaker 1: even if, um, even if it seems like, Okay, they 1228 01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:39,880 Speaker 1: were around for three years and then they were gone 1229 01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:42,200 Speaker 1: and then they all lived in the desert, and you know, 1230 01:06:42,480 --> 01:06:47,160 Speaker 1: um so I also I think that they had a 1231 01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:49,160 Speaker 1: very anarchistic end, Like I feel like that's how most 1232 01:06:49,200 --> 01:06:51,640 Speaker 1: anarchist projects sort of like I don't know, people just 1233 01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:53,840 Speaker 1: sort of walk away, which which is both I think 1234 01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:56,880 Speaker 1: good and bad. Like that they're they're they're parts of 1235 01:06:56,920 --> 01:06:58,520 Speaker 1: it that are like, I mean, obviously it's yeah, we 1236 01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:01,200 Speaker 1: don't hold on like two long. We're not like we 1237 01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:05,240 Speaker 1: must keep alive this institution that isn't doing anything anymore, 1238 01:07:05,720 --> 01:07:11,560 Speaker 1: you know, Like yeah, but it is. I don't know, 1239 01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:15,720 Speaker 1: everyone going their separate ways is like it's it's, it's, 1240 01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:19,040 Speaker 1: it's I don't know. It is very anarchist, good and badly. 1241 01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:23,800 Speaker 1: Well that's black masking up against the wall. Motherfucker's And 1242 01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:31,560 Speaker 1: if you just start us straight and out, uh nothing, um, 1243 01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:34,320 Speaker 1: you know, Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna do my one. 1244 01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:38,439 Speaker 1: This used to be a proper country. And remind everyone that, yeah, 1245 01:07:38,600 --> 01:07:42,440 Speaker 1: remind everyone that that Samuel L. Jackson once held mlk's 1246 01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:46,640 Speaker 1: dad hostage at a university, demanding a historic with black 1247 01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:51,040 Speaker 1: universities like suck less and people used to like people 1248 01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:55,440 Speaker 1: used to just hold like the deans of colleges hostage 1249 01:07:55,520 --> 01:07:58,480 Speaker 1: literally all the time, and that that was just a 1250 01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:00,880 Speaker 1: thing that accepted and like, like you can go back 1251 01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:03,520 Speaker 1: and read New York Times reports of some someone will 1252 01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:05,440 Speaker 1: take a dean hostage and it will be called non 1253 01:08:05,560 --> 01:08:09,720 Speaker 1: violent because nobody gonna be shot anyone, right, Like, I 1254 01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:12,160 Speaker 1: don't know that there are there are things that used 1255 01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:14,440 Speaker 1: to like there are things that used to happen that 1256 01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:18,120 Speaker 1: probably like are not impossible even now. And there I 1257 01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:22,479 Speaker 1: don't know, Like I think like up until right like 1258 01:08:22,600 --> 01:08:25,040 Speaker 1: every if you'd ask any radical in the US whether 1259 01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:26,920 Speaker 1: a group people could burn down to police station, it 1260 01:08:26,960 --> 01:08:30,479 Speaker 1: would be fine. Every single person would tell you. Of 1261 01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:33,200 Speaker 1: people would have been like, this is impossible. And then 1262 01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:35,320 Speaker 1: you know, and then suddenly it wasn't right, and suddenly 1263 01:08:35,560 --> 01:08:39,040 Speaker 1: like it's and like it's you know, and and suddenly 1264 01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:41,240 Speaker 1: and over the course of like like twenty four hours, 1265 01:08:41,320 --> 01:08:43,719 Speaker 1: the police are like pulling out ore like like preparing 1266 01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:45,920 Speaker 1: to burn all of their files and every surrounding police 1267 01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:47,880 Speaker 1: station because they're scared, like you're gonna bring another one. 1268 01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:50,280 Speaker 1: So I don't know, I think things that things that 1269 01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:53,640 Speaker 1: were once impossible suddenly stop being impossible very quickly. No, 1270 01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:55,880 Speaker 1: it's interesting because like one of the things that I 1271 01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:58,479 Speaker 1: was thinking about ending with us the opposite that's maybe 1272 01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:00,639 Speaker 1: me just being old, is that one of the quotes 1273 01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:03,479 Speaker 1: from Ben in one of his more recent interviews is like, yeah, 1274 01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:05,280 Speaker 1: he's like, look, I'm not telling people to do what 1275 01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:07,360 Speaker 1: we did. If you did exactly what we did now, 1276 01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:11,000 Speaker 1: you would die. And I think that there are both 1277 01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:14,040 Speaker 1: of these things are true. Both that like burning down 1278 01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:16,200 Speaker 1: a police station and having it be more popular than 1279 01:09:16,240 --> 01:09:19,920 Speaker 1: the president. You know, like I don't remember it was 1280 01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:23,240 Speaker 1: like the approval rating of burning down the third prison. Yeah, 1281 01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:27,120 Speaker 1: so like that would have seemed impossible until it becomes 1282 01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:28,960 Speaker 1: possible by doing it. But at the same time, I 1283 01:09:29,040 --> 01:09:33,320 Speaker 1: do think that like directly copying what people did in 1284 01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:38,400 Speaker 1: a different context is uh, foolish and dangerous. And so 1285 01:09:38,520 --> 01:09:41,000 Speaker 1: I think it's like it's hard to figure out to 1286 01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:44,400 Speaker 1: what degree we temper our actions and to what degree 1287 01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:47,120 Speaker 1: we demand the impossible or whatever, you know, I think, 1288 01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:49,599 Speaker 1: I don't, I know, we're sort of kind of I'm 1289 01:09:49,640 --> 01:09:51,680 Speaker 1: doing the Midwestern think of saying we're going to end 1290 01:09:51,720 --> 01:09:55,320 Speaker 1: here that we do like two more hours of step 1291 01:09:57,920 --> 01:10:01,320 Speaker 1: will all die. But there's a thing that you see 1292 01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:03,240 Speaker 1: a lot if you read back in the history of 1293 01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:06,479 Speaker 1: sort of recomments of like the people who do the 1294 01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:09,360 Speaker 1: coolest ship a lot of the times are just people 1295 01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:11,120 Speaker 1: who have never been in a movement before and something 1296 01:10:11,200 --> 01:10:14,320 Speaker 1: happens and then they just do stuff. And you know 1297 01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:15,479 Speaker 1: that like a lot a lot of the people the 1298 01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:16,880 Speaker 1: people who were doing stuff, A lot of people who 1299 01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:20,560 Speaker 1: doing people who had like never like you know, like 1300 01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:22,519 Speaker 1: the people who are letting cop cross on fire, people 1301 01:10:22,520 --> 01:10:25,479 Speaker 1: who have never done this before. And I think there's 1302 01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:28,920 Speaker 1: this kind of like, I don't know, there's just kind 1303 01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:31,000 Speaker 1: of calculus that happens when you've seen the costs and 1304 01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:34,560 Speaker 1: you understand them that makes you do stuff in a 1305 01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:36,120 Speaker 1: way this work, and you know, there's just good reason 1306 01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:38,000 Speaker 1: for this, right, Like there is a lot of good 1307 01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:39,840 Speaker 1: reasons to be very very careful at what you do. 1308 01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:43,880 Speaker 1: But I think there's this way in which not understanding 1309 01:10:43,920 --> 01:10:46,880 Speaker 1: what can happen to you is how a lot of 1310 01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:49,080 Speaker 1: the most radical stuff that happens in sort of like 1311 01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:51,760 Speaker 1: the spur of the moment of a riot happens. I 1312 01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:53,479 Speaker 1: think that that makes a lot of sense. But I 1313 01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:56,080 Speaker 1: think that like when I think about my own position 1314 01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:59,800 Speaker 1: as someone who um, you know, spent decades recovering from 1315 01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:03,639 Speaker 1: the rama that I accumulated by um throwing myself into 1316 01:11:05,280 --> 01:11:08,720 Speaker 1: some some rather direct action, you know, it's like I'm 1317 01:11:08,800 --> 01:11:12,160 Speaker 1: basically at a loss and that I cannot, in good conscience, 1318 01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:17,280 Speaker 1: uh not tell people about um that danger even though 1319 01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:20,840 Speaker 1: I see what you're talking about, UM, And so in 1320 01:11:21,400 --> 01:11:23,240 Speaker 1: most ways is simply that my hands are tied because 1321 01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:25,240 Speaker 1: I also actually one of the things I really appreciate 1322 01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:27,639 Speaker 1: about Ben's statement at the end of being like, look, 1323 01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:29,240 Speaker 1: it's not my place to tell people exactly what they 1324 01:11:29,280 --> 01:11:33,120 Speaker 1: should do. You know, there's them. I think there's a 1325 01:11:33,280 --> 01:11:38,479 Speaker 1: very specific danger in podcasting and in any kind of 1326 01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:43,080 Speaker 1: talk radio and and and anything that's sort of propagandistic 1327 01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:46,519 Speaker 1: in which you're trying to like wink wink, nudge nudge 1328 01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:49,040 Speaker 1: about what can be done. And I really don't want 1329 01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:51,599 Speaker 1: to do that, but I do think that people should 1330 01:11:52,280 --> 01:11:54,559 Speaker 1: look at their contexts, look at the risks that they 1331 01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:58,760 Speaker 1: feel comfortable with, and and think about them. Uh. But 1332 01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:01,160 Speaker 1: so that's that's where I'm is my hands are tied. 1333 01:12:01,240 --> 01:12:04,879 Speaker 1: As a I'm really playing up. This is the episode 1334 01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:06,960 Speaker 1: where I just described myself as old as many times 1335 01:12:07,000 --> 01:12:14,720 Speaker 1: as possible. Um, but okay, think like I think it's 1336 01:12:14,800 --> 01:12:18,080 Speaker 1: like I I think like, I think there's a such 1337 01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:22,160 Speaker 1: which like it's not going to be us that does 1338 01:12:22,200 --> 01:12:24,080 Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff, Like, it's not going to 1339 01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:25,880 Speaker 1: be the people who are like who are plugging into 1340 01:12:25,920 --> 01:12:27,560 Speaker 1: the left or do who do a lot of the 1341 01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:29,439 Speaker 1: stuff that will happen. It's going to be people who 1342 01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:33,240 Speaker 1: just have never encounter any of it, and I don't know, 1343 01:12:33,439 --> 01:12:35,800 Speaker 1: like I think that's a it's a bad thing in 1344 01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:37,880 Speaker 1: a lot of ways because it's I don't know, like 1345 01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:41,640 Speaker 1: you this is something like like at the beginning of 1346 01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:43,920 Speaker 1: every movie, you get a lot of people like taking 1347 01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:48,040 Speaker 1: pictures of themselves doing stuff and it's like you, Okay, 1348 01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:51,000 Speaker 1: this is gonna go really badly for you, But I 1349 01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:55,120 Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah, I I hate these are These are 1350 01:12:55,280 --> 01:12:58,040 Speaker 1: kinds of conversations that I think matter. But in a 1351 01:12:58,120 --> 01:13:01,880 Speaker 1: lot of ways, I feel that my position is to 1352 01:13:02,080 --> 01:13:05,320 Speaker 1: not use this platform as a movement strategist. And so 1353 01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:08,960 Speaker 1: that's where I'm at, um is that I I have 1354 01:13:09,160 --> 01:13:12,240 Speaker 1: thoughts about all of this stuff, and uh, and I'm 1355 01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:14,479 Speaker 1: not going to use this platform to describe them because 1356 01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:18,320 Speaker 1: of um, because of my position. But that's not to 1357 01:13:18,360 --> 01:13:21,880 Speaker 1: say that you shouldn't. I'm not glad that you're talking 1358 01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:24,599 Speaker 1: about it on my my show. Just that's that's why 1359 01:13:24,720 --> 01:13:27,000 Speaker 1: my responses are a little bit like, yeah, it's interesting, 1360 01:13:27,400 --> 01:13:30,640 Speaker 1: you know, Yeah, I know that that makes sense. Um, 1361 01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:34,080 Speaker 1: But if people do want to hear more of what 1362 01:13:34,240 --> 01:13:36,720 Speaker 1: you have to say about all this stuff, where can 1363 01:13:36,760 --> 01:13:41,679 Speaker 1: they hear it? Yeah, it could happen here the podcast 1364 01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:46,639 Speaker 1: where we talk about stuff. It's a really good podcast. 1365 01:13:46,680 --> 01:13:50,439 Speaker 1: Anyone who doesn't listen to that should listen to it. Um. Yeah, 1366 01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:54,200 Speaker 1: there's there is a lot of that's true. And Margaret, 1367 01:13:54,280 --> 01:13:56,680 Speaker 1: you have a new book I do. If you want 1368 01:13:56,680 --> 01:14:01,600 Speaker 1: to hear my opinions about Escape from install Island, this 1369 01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:05,240 Speaker 1: the adventure story, then you can purchase my new book 1370 01:14:05,640 --> 01:14:09,760 Speaker 1: called Escape from Insul Island, which comes out February one 1371 01:14:10,000 --> 01:14:11,840 Speaker 1: from Strangers in the Tingled Wilderness, and you can pre 1372 01:14:11,920 --> 01:14:13,280 Speaker 1: order it. And if you pre order it, you get 1373 01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:16,040 Speaker 1: a super cool poster of the super cool cover. The 1374 01:14:16,080 --> 01:14:21,160 Speaker 1: covers by Jonas coon Face. It's amazing. Um. And that's 1375 01:14:21,200 --> 01:14:24,519 Speaker 1: the thing you can do. And pre orders are like, uh, 1376 01:14:24,760 --> 01:14:28,120 Speaker 1: disproportionately impactful on small presses. This is a small press book, 1377 01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:31,920 Speaker 1: and small presses don't have as much capital, therefore can't 1378 01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:35,920 Speaker 1: get the same discounts at printers and therefore everything it's 1379 01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:37,960 Speaker 1: just like spirals into bad if you don't start off 1380 01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:40,080 Speaker 1: with a bunch of capital. So pre orders are are 1381 01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:46,559 Speaker 1: disproportionately impactful. That's just that's my pitch. We'll be back 1382 01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:50,640 Speaker 1: next week. Stay, I see everyone. Yeah, I don't like it. No, 1383 01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:54,040 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't like it either. This is the 1384 01:14:54,080 --> 01:15:01,400 Speaker 1: only week you'll get to do that. Ye Cool People 1385 01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:04,280 Speaker 1: Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of cool Zone Media. 1386 01:15:04,600 --> 01:15:07,439 Speaker 1: For more podcasts on cool Zone Media, visit our website 1387 01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:10,000 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com, or check us out on 1388 01:15:10,160 --> 01:15:13,040 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 1389 01:15:13,120 --> 01:15:14,080 Speaker 1: get your podcasts.