1 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 1: Stephanie Spurgeon was a married mother of two and a 2 00:00:06,480 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: licensed childcare provider who had been running a daycare facility 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 1: from her home in Florida for fifteen years. On August 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: twenty first, two thousand and eight, one year old Maria 5 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 1: Harris spent her first day at Stephanie's daycare. Maria's grandmother 6 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: had picked up a sleeping Maria that day, but soon 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: after had noticed that Maria was unresponsive and in distress. 8 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: Ignoring other potential root causes and relying on the junk 9 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,479 Speaker 1: science of shaken baby syndrome, doctors opined that brain bleed 10 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: and swelling were signs of child abuse, placing blame on 11 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: the brand new childcare provider, Stephanie Spurgeon, and when Maria 12 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: died seven days later, the charges were upgraded to murder, 13 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: but with the lack of external injuries, the state changed 14 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: its shaken baby theory, concocting a new narrative in which 15 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: Maria had been repeatedly struck against the soft surface. The 16 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,639 Speaker 1: defense failed to pivot to this new theory, instead presenting 17 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: a shape and baby syndrome defense, and with the states 18 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: uncontested yet totally dubious soft impact theory. The jury found 19 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:11,200 Speaker 1: Stephanie guilty of the lesser charge of manslaughter and sentenced 20 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: her to fifteen years in prison. With the help of 21 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: multiple innocence projects and a current candidate for state's attorney, 22 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: Stephanie was able to present the proper expert testimony. 23 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 2: This proved the. 24 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: State's ludicrous soft impact theory, win a new trial, and 25 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: ultimately be set free after nine long years. This is 26 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 1: wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today's episode is well, 27 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest with you, it's terrifying because this 28 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: is a story that is both unique and also somehow 29 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: not uncommon, and it involves an innocent woman working at 30 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: a daycare center who got caught up in the criminal 31 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 1: legal system for no reason of her own making. I'm 32 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 1: going to introduce our incredible guest today, because we have three, 33 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 1: including the woman who lived through this nightmare herself, Stephanie Spurgeon. First, 34 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to introduce our very distinguished group. Seth Miller 35 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: is here. He's the executive director of the Innocence Project 36 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:30,839 Speaker 1: of Florida. It does incredible work day in and day out, 37 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: pushing huge boulders uphills of justice. So Seth, thanks for 38 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: being here. 39 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: Thanks Jason, thrilled to be here. 40 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 1: And with him and with us. Is Alison Miller no relation. 41 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 1: She is an attorney with Ripley Wisenhunt and is also 42 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: currently running for the State's Attorney Office of Florida. And 43 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:52,880 Speaker 1: I hope people will support her because we need people 44 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: like you in positions like that. But for the time being, 45 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: we're happy to have you right where you are and 46 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: right here on the mic. So Alison Miller or welcome 47 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 1: to Wronful Conviction. 48 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. 49 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: And Stephanie, what can I say? I feel like the 50 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: whole human race owes you a debt of gratitude for 51 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: sharing your story and for just being the strong, courageous 52 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 1: woman that you are. And I appreciate you being here. 53 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 1: So Stephanie to you. Also, welcome to Ronful Conviction. 54 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 4: Thank you, Jason. It's my pleasure. 55 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: And so Stephanie, this is the story that we've heard 56 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: time and time again where somebody like yourself is doing 57 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: you know, let's call it what it is, essential work. 58 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: Where would we be as a society without daycare centers? 59 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: The working world would grind to a halt, And yet 60 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: people like you too often end up in situations like 61 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: the one we're talking about today. I mean, it really 62 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: makes my heart hurt. But let's please take us back 63 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: before this incident happened in two thousand and eight. Can 64 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: you tell us what your life was like back then. 65 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 4: I was married for nineteen years, and I had two 66 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 4: beautiful children. We had a beautiful life. We were well 67 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,800 Speaker 4: knit family. We did a lot of family vacations. I 68 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 4: was a license and home daycare provider for fifteen years. 69 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 4: The parents that would come into my home, they became 70 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 4: part of my family. Their kids became part of my family. 71 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 4: We would celebrate holidays together and different things. It was 72 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 4: very fulfilling. I was able to work with children. I 73 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,120 Speaker 4: was able to be at home with my own children. 74 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 4: I decided at one point to go into special needs children. 75 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 4: So I took lots of children that came in who 76 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 4: had speech issues or different disabilities, and I grew a 77 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 4: real heart for these kids because not a lot of 78 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 4: places would accept any special needs children. And then I 79 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,119 Speaker 4: decided to branch off a little bit further and start 80 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 4: taking teenage parent children. So Esther Harris was actually the 81 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 4: very first teen mom that I took. She was seventeen 82 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:01,080 Speaker 4: years old when I was introduced to her, Maria. 83 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: And so not only are you taking care of other 84 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: people's kids, you're doing it in your own home, opening 85 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 1: your doors and your heart and taking care of kids 86 00:05:08,920 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: who have issues with other people. Well might not want 87 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: to open their home too, or their hearts, right, I mean, 88 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: so this case, I'd like to say it happened a 89 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,039 Speaker 1: long time ago, but it really didn't, right. I mean, 90 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: it would feel a little bit better if it was 91 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: back before we had science evolved to a place that 92 00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: it was at in two thousand and eight, which is 93 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: when this tragedy occurred, of course. And I said tragedy 94 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: not crime. That's deliberate, because that's what it was. And 95 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 1: so Seth, do you want to set the stage for 96 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: us of what happened on that awful day and how 97 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: this became a criminal matter. 98 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 5: When I think about these cases when a child dies, 99 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 5: a lot of times the folks involved in trying to 100 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 5: figure out how that happened kind of go nutty. They 101 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 5: aren't able to take sober views of what might have 102 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 5: happened to that child. And that's what happened here in 103 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,119 Speaker 5: this case. Sephie Spurgeon was running an in home daycare 104 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 5: at her home. It was better business bureau rated had 105 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 5: generations worth of children who come through the daycare who 106 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 5: really positive experiences, their families had positive experiences. And the child, 107 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 5: Maria Harris, was her first day at the daycare. And 108 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 5: yet on this day, this poor child was suffering from 109 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 5: what was clearly a distress, a medical situation. 110 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 4: When Maria's grandmother, Patricia came and picked her up that day, 111 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 4: Maria had been sleeping. So I reached into the pack 112 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 4: and play and I picked her up, and she kind 113 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 4: of stirred in my arms, and I passed her to Patricia, 114 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 4: and she stirred in Patricia's arms, and then Patricia took 115 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 4: her and placed her in the car and drove her home. 116 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 4: Thirty minutes later is when we got the phone call. Maria, 117 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 4: I guess was deteriorating as she was sleeping, and I 118 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 4: was unaware that there was any issue because I simply 119 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 4: thought she was asleep. 120 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 5: At the end of the day, the child was growing up. 121 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 5: The child was crying and was clearly kind of lifeless 122 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 5: in a lot of ways, and called nine one one. 123 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 5: It took the child to the hospital and when they 124 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 5: were on the way to the hospital, they tested the 125 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 5: child's blood sugar and the child had a high. 126 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 2: Four hundreds of blood sugar. 127 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 5: And I don't know if any of y'all have diabetes 128 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 5: or test your blood sugar regularly, but that is four 129 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 5: to five times the normal level. 130 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: So this child is in major distress. 131 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 5: What they do when they get this child to the 132 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 5: hospital is they realize after doing a number of tests 133 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 5: on the child that the child's suffering from a brain 134 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 5: lead a subdural hematoma, and the child has brain swelling 135 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 5: and that has led to the child having retinal hemorrhages. 136 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 5: And instead of treating the child for what looked like 137 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 5: a diabetic situation, a diabetic distress because the child had 138 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 5: the subdual heemotone, because the child had this brain swelling 139 00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 5: and the retinal hemorrhages, the doctors immediately assumed that this 140 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 5: was an abusive situation because they thought that this was 141 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 5: the three ingredients the triad as they call it, cause 142 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 5: by taking baby syndrome or what is more commonly known 143 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 5: now is abusive head trauma. So that had a chance 144 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 5: to try to treat this child to maybe ameliorate or 145 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,559 Speaker 5: even prevent and a bigger problem or death to treat 146 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 5: this metabolic this diabetic situation, but instead they assumed it 147 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 5: was abuse and were often running taking a medical situation 148 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 5: and elevating it to the crime, and unfortunately his child 149 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 5: died seven days later. 150 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,800 Speaker 1: The idea that this might have been prevented if they 151 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: just simply focused on the problem at hand rather than 152 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: turning this into wild accusations of child abuse makes my 153 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: blood boil. I mean, and I think it's worth mentioning. 154 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: As we've covered extensively on our show Junk Science and 155 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: other episodes of Wrongful Conviction as well, just a general 156 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: overview of the theory of shaking baby syndrome or SBS. Now. 157 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,440 Speaker 1: It was initially introduced as a hypothesis by British pediatric 158 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: neurosurgeon doctor Norman guth Kelch, who was trying to explain 159 00:08:48,720 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: a cause for inexplicable child deaths in which a child 160 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: or baby, toddler whatever had presented subdural hematoma otherwise known 161 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: as bleeding in the brain, retinal hemorrhage, so you know, 162 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: bleeding in the eye, in brain swelling, or cerebral edemon Now. 163 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 1: Doctor Kuthkelch hypothesized that perhaps a typical method of scolding 164 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 1: a child in Great Britain at the time, giving the 165 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: child a good shake. Maybe that was the cause for 166 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: unintended or unexplained child deaths in which this triad of 167 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: medical findings occurred. He never was able to prove this, 168 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: He just hypothesized it and cautioned parents against the practice. Understandably, however, 169 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,599 Speaker 1: since that hypothesis, the criminal legal system just sort of 170 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: ran amuck with this idea, right leaping to the conclusion 171 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: that any child presenting those symptoms, especially if there was 172 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: any other bruisings, had been fatally abused like sort of 173 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: one size fits all, which is ridiculous, and that the 174 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,839 Speaker 1: person less responsible for the child therefore must have been 175 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: the culprit. 176 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 3: And I think we as people understanding the inner workings 177 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 3: of the human mind, when bad things happen, we want 178 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 3: to be able to say there's someone or something responsible 179 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 3: for that bad thing happening. And so, where there was 180 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 3: a legitimate science maybe at the inception this idea has 181 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:07,200 Speaker 3: been horribly bastardized to get convictions involving usually the depth 182 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 3: of infants or toddlers, and Stephanie's case is a perfect 183 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 3: example of that. Where there is legitimate scientific evidence that 184 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 3: this child was in medical distress that went ignored by 185 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 3: medical professionals because it was easier to say, oh, this 186 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 3: child must have been harmed. 187 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's worth noting that in recent years, as 188 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: doctors in larger and larger numbers have been challenging the 189 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: notion of shaking baby syndrome, they've identified, get this, over 190 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: eighty different preexisting conditions that can cause what they call 191 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: the triad of findings that were historically just attributed to 192 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: shaking baby syndrome almost automatically. Right, So the science is there, 193 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: but I mean, I wish I could say when the 194 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: criminal legal system is going to catch up. It's entirely 195 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: possible that it never will because science, let's face it 196 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: looks forward, while the legal system only looks backward at precedent, 197 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: sort of the opposite. And so, Stephanie, if you could 198 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: take us back to when you were arrested, what all 199 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 1: happened before the trial. 200 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 4: My first arrest was August twenty first, August twenty second, 201 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 4: maybe two thousand and eight. I was arrested on aggravated 202 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 4: child abuse. I went to Nells County Jail. I was 203 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 4: housed in a solitaire cell because of course my face 204 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 4: was on the news, and I was able to bond 205 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 4: out the next day. I think it's important to say 206 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 4: my bond was fifty thousand dollars, and my parents got 207 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 4: an attorney for me, which was fifty thousand dollars, So 208 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 4: right away we're in the hole. I came home and 209 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 4: was unable to have a daycare of course, so I 210 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 4: had no income, so that became an issue immediately. Maria 211 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 4: passed away seven days later. I was rearrested six weeks later, 212 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 4: on November eighth, two thousand and eight, on capitol felony murder. 213 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 4: I had just taken my son to his bus stop 214 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 4: in the morning, and when I came back home, I 215 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 4: put up in a driveway, like three squad cars surrounded me, 216 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 4: and everybody come racing out, screaming and yelling and put 217 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 4: me in cuffs and put me in the back of 218 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:17,719 Speaker 4: the cruiser and took me back to County jail. When 219 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 4: they brought me in from booking that day, they brought 220 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 4: me straight to a solitaire cell in the lobby area, 221 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 4: and I could look out and see my face on 222 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 4: the news. And as I'm looking at my face on 223 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 4: the news. I'm looking at the other inmates that are 224 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 4: in there getting processed in and they're all looking back 225 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 4: at me and that solitaire cell. So it was a 226 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:43,560 Speaker 4: very scary situation. There was a grand jury hearing, and 227 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 4: the attorney that I had that was fifty thousand dollars 228 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 4: he wouldn't try a capital case, so we had to 229 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 4: hire another firm and they cost us one hundred thousand. 230 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 4: I ended up getting indicted and then we moved for 231 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 4: a bond hearing. My bond hearing was successful, except it 232 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 4: was three hundred and fifty thousand dollars with an ankle 233 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 4: monitor and no contact with any child in the age 234 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:13,720 Speaker 4: of twelve. I thought there was no way that my 235 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 4: family was ever going to be able to come up 236 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,199 Speaker 4: with those kind of funds because we had already spent 237 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 4: so much. They did come up with it. They fundraised, 238 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 4: They drained all of your savings, accounts, everything, and one night, 239 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 4: on January twenty sixth, two thousand and nine, after I 240 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:35,480 Speaker 4: think eighty nine days in a solitaire cell, I was 241 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 4: released at two am, so I was able to come 242 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:41,439 Speaker 4: home and wake both of my kids up. My daughter 243 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 4: and I ended up sitting on the front porch in 244 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 4: a rocking chair and watch the sunrise together. It was 245 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 4: very hard to sleep because I kept thinking I was 246 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 4: going to wake up and be back in there. The 247 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 4: nightmare would be there again. 248 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company, 249 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: and by Accentsure, a global professional services company with leading 250 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 1: capabilities in digital, cloud and security. Working to reform the 251 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: criminal justice system is a key pillar of the AIG 252 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: pro Bono program, which provides free legal services and other 253 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need 254 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: as part of Extensure's commitment to racial and civil justice. 255 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: Accenture's Legal Access Program provides pro bono legal services in 256 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: partnership with more than forty organizations, bringing meaningful change to 257 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: people and communities worldwide. 258 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 5: There were signals even before the trial that the state 259 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 5: was going to move away from a shaken baby syndrome diagnosis. 260 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 5: The real issue in this case is that we had 261 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 5: these presentations in the brain and the skull, and the 262 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 5: doctors were used to saying, oh, this could only be abused, 263 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 5: it's shaken baby syndrome. The problem is these things are 264 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 5: normally associated with signs of abuse, external injuries, and this 265 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 5: child did not have a scratch or a bruise or 266 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 5: not even a single mark on her, and so the 267 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 5: doctors are trying to figure out, well, how can we 268 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 5: make this abuse and explain away to the fact that 269 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 5: there's no visual injuries on this child. And this is 270 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,720 Speaker 5: how what they call the child abuse pediatrician I'm using 271 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 5: air quotes, she came up with the theory that, well, 272 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 5: the reason there's no injuries that are apparent on the 273 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,120 Speaker 5: outside is because the child was slammed repeatedly on a 274 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 5: soft surface like a crib mattress. 275 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: So this case is nutty, right, because you don't see 276 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: it very often that the state changes their theory sort 277 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: of midstream, right, So then they came up with this 278 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: soft impact theory. But the crazy thing is it seemed 279 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: like her attorneys were defending a different theory than the 280 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: one that the state was trying to convict her on. 281 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: Am I mistaken about that? 282 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. 283 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 5: The defense attorney was very focused on shaking in Mey syndrome. 284 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 5: And when I deposed this attorney in post conviction, I 285 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 5: asked them about cases that he had done previously, and 286 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 5: what I found out was that he had done a 287 00:16:14,840 --> 00:16:18,160 Speaker 5: series of shaking baby syndrome cases where he got favorable 288 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 5: results from his clients. So he had his pat experts 289 00:16:21,680 --> 00:16:23,960 Speaker 5: in a formula for how he would approach these cases. 290 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 5: But he simply failed to learn his own case well 291 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 5: enough to know that he could not simply employ the 292 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 5: same formula that he employed in other cases where shaking 293 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 5: baby syndrome was a theory. Because not all cases are 294 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 5: the same, they're not creating equal In this case, the 295 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 5: state had already abandoned the shaking baby syndrome theory for 296 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 5: this seft impact theory, And so we're pressing long. In 297 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 5: a case they get to buy a mechanical expert. They 298 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 5: do the thing that a lot of people don't do. 299 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: They get the right. 300 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 5: Expert, they prepare that expert, but they prepare them for 301 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 5: the wrong theory. And there was this striking moment in 302 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 5: the trial where after the defense attorney sits down, he 303 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 5: thinks he's done a great job with the biomaccant of expert. 304 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 5: And the first question the state asked the expert when 305 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 5: they get up is who told you that this was 306 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 5: a shaken baby syndrome case. It was a devastating moment 307 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 5: in the trial and of course, he could have put 308 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 5: his expert back up, got them to prepare all the calculations, 309 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 5: and he failed to do that because he just didn't 310 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 5: even understand his own case. 311 00:17:22,720 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 3: The State of Florida, in their prosecution of Stephanie, relied 312 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 3: on one particular pediatrician that they frequently rely on. It's 313 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 3: so hard because these doctors and experts come in to 314 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 3: court couched with credibility and reliability, and especially in areas 315 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 3: like Vanillas and Pasco County where we've used the same 316 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:48,200 Speaker 3: experts forever, it's hard helping whomever the FactFinder is, jurors 317 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,120 Speaker 3: or judges to understand this is a misapplication of science. 318 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 3: And so you get doctors that come in and they 319 00:17:55,320 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 3: use words that we as average folks don't understand, and 320 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 3: it sounds like it must be true. And then at 321 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 3: the end it's with the conclusion that this child died 322 00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 3: as a result of intentionally inflicted abuse of trauma. 323 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the deck is truly stacked against even someone 324 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 1: like Stephanie. Right, she gets swept under this tidal wave 325 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 1: of nonsense that comes from preconceived biases and notions and things. 326 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,959 Speaker 1: Right because someone sees her in the defendant's chair. They 327 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: automatically assume somebody who's there must have done something to 328 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: be there. Right, there's that you have to overcome. Then, 329 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: as you said, there's all the medical stuff. A guy 330 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: gets up there and reads his credentials sounds very impressive, 331 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: and then spouting these theories that most jurors are not 332 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: equipped to understand or unpacked, so they think they're doing 333 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: the right thing. And I have empathy for them too 334 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: for making these mistakes. And Stephanie, you've lived through this, 335 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: so I want to get back to you. What was 336 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: this like from your perspective as a mom nineteen years married, 337 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 1: you know, upstanding citizen to say the least, Well. 338 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,399 Speaker 4: Jason, I was absolutely devastating, to say the least. Kept 339 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 4: waiting for truth to prevail. I knew that I didn't 340 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 4: hurt Maria, so I knew that something would eventually come 341 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 4: to surface that would show what had happened. It was terrifying, 342 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 4: terrifying for me, It was terrifying for my children, It 343 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 4: was terrifying for my then husband. It was awful, and 344 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 4: in the end, it destroyed our whole family. I got 345 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 4: a divorce, went to prison, and my kids grew up 346 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 4: without their mom. 347 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 1: How old were the kids when this happened. 348 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,959 Speaker 4: My son was twelve, my daughter was seventeen. 349 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: So Stephanie, when the jury went out, can you tell 350 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,199 Speaker 1: us what you were thinking at that time? Did you 351 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: think that finally this wrong would be righted and this 352 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: nightmare would come to an end. 353 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 4: I just kept thinking that eventually they would realize that 354 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 4: there's no way that I did this, that nobody hurt Maria. 355 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 4: There had to have been something else. They jury deliberated 356 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,919 Speaker 4: for twenty one and a half hours before they came 357 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 4: back with an acquittal of capital failing murder but a 358 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 4: guilty charge in manslaughter. I heard a horrible noise from 359 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 4: behind me, and it was my son crying out. It 360 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 4: was surreal. It just felt like I was in a fog. 361 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 4: I remember mouthing I love you to my family before 362 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 4: they haled me out of the courtroom and put me 363 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:44,479 Speaker 4: back in that solitaire sell I got to prison. I 364 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 4: was absolutely terrified and had to learn very quickly how 365 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,879 Speaker 4: to adapt in a maximum security prison. You have to 366 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 4: always pay attention to what's going around you, and you 367 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 4: had to kind of learn how to bob and weave 368 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 4: between people. You didn't want to draw any attention to yourself. 369 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 4: It's a very scary place. And not only is it 370 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,679 Speaker 4: scary from the other inmates, but not all the officers 371 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 4: are on the up and up. The officers are also 372 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 4: very scary. So I got to prison, and naturally I 373 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,760 Speaker 4: was quite angry, and I knew that if I didn't 374 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 4: do something with my anger, I was just going to 375 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 4: go down a dark path. So I threw myself into 376 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 4: learning about my own case, and I got certified and 377 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 4: became a law clerk, which of course is how I 378 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,879 Speaker 4: met Amanda Brumfield. We were co workers in the law library. 379 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 4: We both left the maximum security prison and we found 380 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 4: ourselves at a faith and character based war camp, and 381 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 4: that was a much safer environment, albeit it did not 382 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 4: have ac so it was extremely excruciatingly hot, but I 383 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,479 Speaker 4: traded the heat for the safety and I worked with 384 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,040 Speaker 4: Amanda in the law library and we did every I 385 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 4: think we could for other people in there, meanwhile, both 386 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 4: learning each other's case as well as our own case. 387 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 4: And that's how I survived. 388 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know where. I don't know where they 389 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: make people like you that find this sort of otherworldly strength, spirit, courage, 390 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it. But I'm just glad 391 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: you did, and I'm glad that Amanda Broomfield did as well. 392 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: I mean, she just recently joined us here on Rafel Convictions, 393 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: and yeah, I'm so freaking glad that you both found 394 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: the strength to pull through and be here. 395 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 4: Well, I had a good support system, Jason. I had 396 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 4: wonderful parents and my brother and my children, and they 397 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 4: made sure I had all of my needs, because you know, 398 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 4: in prison they don't give you shampoo and deodor and 399 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,320 Speaker 4: things like that. You have to buy these things. Thankfully, 400 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 4: I had an amazing support system that are still my 401 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:55,479 Speaker 4: support system. And you know, it was very touching because 402 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 4: not only did I have a support system for my family, 403 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 4: but my clients and the childcare. All of my daycare 404 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,679 Speaker 4: babies that I raised grew up and sent me checks 405 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 4: while I was in prison to help pay for whatever 406 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 4: I needed in there. So these daycare babies that I 407 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 4: raised were taken care of being while I was in prison. 408 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: Well that's full circle, isn't it. I Mean, it's a 409 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 1: little bit of light in a miserable dark place and 410 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: speaks to your character as well. So, Seth Allison, how 411 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: did this then eventually make its way to your desks, 412 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: and how did the process finally right itself. 413 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 5: You know what's unique I think about this case is 414 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 5: that it got to us so much earlier than a 415 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 5: lot of other cases. I've gotten guys out of prison 416 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 5: who has spent thirty or thirty five or over forty 417 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,479 Speaker 5: years in prison, and once you find out about that 418 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 5: twenty years, thirty years down the line, it's very hard 419 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 5: to rectify that. It's a reclamation project that sometimes is 420 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 5: beset with procedural problems that doesn't really allow you to 421 00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 5: turn it around. But here we were able to get 422 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 5: in on the initial post conviction motion, where you have 423 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 5: all of the potential claims available. 424 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 2: To you have no procedural problems. 425 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 5: And so we only did that because Stephanie wrote to 426 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,320 Speaker 5: us almost immediately after her initial appeal was denied. And 427 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 5: what was interesting is that she had written to us. 428 00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 5: I was litigating another case with Kate Judson, and we 429 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 5: come to find out that this other person's case, Amanda Brownfield, 430 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,679 Speaker 5: and Stephanie were friends in prison, and that's kind of 431 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 5: how Stephanie got hooked up with us. I remember being 432 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 5: in the car driving home from a different prison visit, 433 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,480 Speaker 5: talking to Kate about Stephanie's application and saying, hey, you 434 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 5: want to do another one, and that was kind of like, yeah, 435 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 5: let's get it. This case has some crazy issues in it. 436 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 5: So what became clear to us is what we've already 437 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 5: talked about. The lawyer didn't use the biomechanical engineer that 438 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 5: he had at his disposal to rebut the state's soft 439 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 5: impact theory how this supposed abuse happened. What happens is 440 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,399 Speaker 5: that juris are looking for an answer, and the prosecution 441 00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 5: gave them an answer. It's incumbent upon the defense to 442 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,920 Speaker 5: rebut that if you don't, your client's going to be convicted. 443 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 5: And so what happened here is that not only did 444 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 5: they not give them an answer, they put up another 445 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 5: expert who agreed that this was from violent trauma. So 446 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 5: the defense expert agreed is from violent trauma, and they 447 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 5: never went into any of them to like medical. 448 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 2: Issues that were very clear that existed. So that was 449 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:17,840 Speaker 2: kind of where we focused. 450 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,679 Speaker 5: Can we get the biomic engineer to look at the studies, 451 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,400 Speaker 5: do the calculations to prove that slamming on a soft 452 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 5: surface can't cause these injuries? And can we talk to 453 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:32,720 Speaker 5: pediatric endochronologists, pediatric genesis, forensic pathologists or clinical pathologists, a 454 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 5: neuroadiologists to look at all of this material in the 455 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 5: case and help us understand whether this could even be trauma, 456 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 5: and if it wasn't trauma, could it come from another 457 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 5: underlying medical issue, particularly issue of related diabetes. And when 458 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 5: we were able to do that, what we found out 459 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,400 Speaker 5: is that we had an expert, a biomechanical expert, who 460 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 5: was able to say with supreme confidence that this slamming 461 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,399 Speaker 5: on a soft service could not have scientifically caused this 462 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 5: child's injuries because he did the preeminent study of just 463 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 5: this type of scenario and it proven that a human 464 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 5: of Stephanie's size can't create enough force to cause those 465 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 5: injuries in that child's brain without also causing massive external injuries. 466 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,719 Speaker 5: Of course, there were none, and so scientifically they couldn't 467 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 5: do that. Our experts together showed that this was a 468 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 5: situation where the child had a blood clot in their brain. 469 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 5: The blood clot in their brain caused spillover bleeding into 470 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 5: the brain because blood couldn't get out of the brain 471 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 5: back to the other parts of the body, and that 472 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 5: caused swelling in the brain which caused the retinal hemorrhages 473 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 5: which caused this child's disease, and all of this was 474 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 5: caused by a thicking of the blood due to a 475 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 5: diabetic situation. 476 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 2: And so we have this evidence now. 477 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,959 Speaker 5: But the key was to show that the trial council 478 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 5: violated Stephanie's constitutional right to counsel and effective assistance of 479 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 5: that council by not bringing about all of this information, 480 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,439 Speaker 5: all of which would prove that there was no crime 481 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:55,439 Speaker 5: here and that this child died from a tragic a 482 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 5: medical situation that was just undiagnosed. 483 00:26:57,720 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 2: So that's what we did. 484 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 1: What was it like, Stephanie, when all of a sudden 485 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: You've got sort of the dream team, right, I mean 486 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 1: the Florida Innocence Project. Those of us who worked in 487 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: the Innis's movement know that the Florida Innosce Project is 488 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: held in the highest regard. So when you got the 489 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: letter or a call or whatever it was saying that 490 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: they were going to represent you, what was that like, Well, 491 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: it was. 492 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 4: A phone call from Seth at the Florida Innocence Project 493 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 4: and he patched through Kay Judson. At that time, she 494 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,479 Speaker 4: was with the Innocence Project of Wisconsin. Now with the 495 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 4: Center for Integrity and Forensic Science, and I also had 496 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 4: Josh Teffer, who is with the Exoneration Project out of Chicago. 497 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 4: So it was unbelievable to know that not only did 498 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 4: I manage to get one innocence project, but I managed 499 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 4: to get three projects all working. And I guess I 500 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 4: just kind of like threw up my hands and was 501 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 4: just like finally, finally, like I knew there had to 502 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 4: be something there, and finally somebody found it. 503 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: Right, all of a sudden, You've got the literal dream 504 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 1: team on your side, and Allison, can you take us 505 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,600 Speaker 1: through how you got involved in what eventually led to 506 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: Stephanie's freedom. 507 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 2: I love this. 508 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: This This is my favorite part of the story. 509 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 3: So Seth, with Kate and Josh did that lengthy post 510 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 3: conviction hearing in front of Judge Burgess, which he denied. 511 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 3: They appealed, and the Second District Court of Appeal overturned 512 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 3: that denial of the post conviction motion, finding Stephanie's original 513 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 3: trial lawyers to be ineffective. Seth and I have worked 514 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 3: on a number of different cases or just sort of 515 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 3: floated in the same circles myself at the trial court level, 516 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 3: and Seth Moore in the post conviction world. I could 517 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 3: remember when Stephanie's case was overturned, Seth and I having 518 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 3: this meeting of the minds where he was like, you know, 519 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 3: myself and Kate and Josh obviously still want to be involved, 520 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 3: but we need somebody who does trial work. And I 521 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 3: was like, well, I would love to be involved. And 522 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 3: so that's when I got appointed. Was like, okay, we're 523 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 3: back for a new trial. And instead of the State 524 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 3: of Florida saying we concede, the state indicated it intended 525 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,719 Speaker 3: to retry Stephanie, and so we were like, bring it, 526 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 3: y'all are prosecuting an innocent woman and we're going to 527 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 3: embarrass you. Was the mentality that we had. It was 528 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 3: all new prosecutors, all new defense attorneys, and we were 529 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 3: gearing up for a battle. Frankly, to make a very 530 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 3: long story short, the state would not agree to not 531 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 3: go forward, but to bring an end to this for everyone, 532 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 3: the Harris family, Spurgeon family, the state was willing to 533 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 3: accept what we call an Alfred please, where a defendant 534 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 3: pleads guilty but is still exerting his or her innocence, 535 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 3: saying I'm pleading guilty, but because I believe it's in 536 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 3: my best interest to do so, not because I'm legally 537 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 3: admitting to doing what I'm accused of. And I think 538 00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 3: we all felt like because of all the shortcomings in 539 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 3: the criminal justice system as they exist, the over reliance 540 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 3: on the pediatrician who doesn't seem to understand science, I 541 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 3: couldn't tell Stephanie there was no chance that a jury 542 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,479 Speaker 3: would convict her. Yet Stephanie wanted her life back, she 543 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 3: wanted her family back, she wanted to be able to 544 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 3: put her toes in the ocean, and so for everyone's sake, 545 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 3: she agreed to enter this Alfred plea and bring resolution 546 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 3: to the case. 547 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,600 Speaker 1: So, look, no one could fall at you, Stephanie for 548 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: making the decision that you made. People make it all 549 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: the time. I can find a lot of faults in 550 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: the state for dangling that sword over your head again. 551 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,640 Speaker 1: So when did you come home, Stephanie? And can you 552 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: tell us what it was like walking out into the 553 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 1: fresh air? Give us as much as you can. 554 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 4: Well, it was definitely hot. I had an entourage of 555 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 4: people out there along with Netflix. We're doing a series, 556 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 4: so everybody was filming. I got in the car and 557 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 4: The first thing they did was handy a cell phone. 558 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,160 Speaker 4: I didn't know what to do with it. I think 559 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 4: they were just so excited to finally give me some 560 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 4: piece of technology. And I went to Wall Laws. My 561 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 4: kids had always told me about wah wahs, and when 562 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 4: I walked in, it was just so overwhelming, all the 563 00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 4: lights and all the things to look at. And I 564 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 4: know that probably sounds so silly, but when you've been 565 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 4: trapped inside for so long, and I must look like 566 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 4: I was from outer space because my eyes are staring 567 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 4: at the lights, I'm sure my mouth was open. It 568 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,240 Speaker 4: was interesting. I allowed Netflix to come home with me 569 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 4: and film me coming in, and that was a really 570 00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 4: difficult thing, to allow them to film me at my 571 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:35,760 Speaker 4: most weakest, vulnerable moment of happy tears. That I did 572 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 4: allow it because I wanted to help bring more knowledge 573 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 4: when the series finally does. 574 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: Air, amen to that, and I think we all who 575 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 1: work in this field for those happy moments. So, Stephanie, you, 576 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: on top of all the other unspeakable treatment that you 577 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,719 Speaker 1: had to endure, you also, as you mentioned, had to 578 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: spend a king's ransom, you know, to try to defend yourself. 579 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: Just the thousands of dollars, and you aren't a rich 580 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: person going into this. So we now have a bigger 581 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 1: support system. Right over one hundred thousand people who are 582 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: listening to your voice now. I'm sure many of them 583 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 1: would like to do something to help you if they could. 584 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: Is there some way for people to donate, or is 585 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: there anything else that you could think up that they 586 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: might be able to do. 587 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 4: I have a GoFundMe and I would appreciate anything that 588 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 4: anybody could do to help me get back on my feet. 589 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 4: I've been home a year now and really haven't been 590 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 4: able to build up a whole lot, so I would 591 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 4: appreciate that. Thank you, Jason, Yes. 592 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: And we will link to that in a bio of 593 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: our episode. So please take a moment right now. If 594 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: you're listening and you have something you can spare, please 595 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: go to the link in the bio and donate, and 596 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: we're going to join you in doing that and trying 597 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: to help make this next period of your life a 598 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 1: little bit less difficult. And listen if you're sitting at 599 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: home wondering how we can help to prevent these wrongful 600 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: convictions from happening in the future. Besides serving on juries 601 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: and voting, like we talked about don't to Alison Miller's campaign, 602 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,400 Speaker 1: We're going to again have the link in the bio. 603 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: But Allison, what is the way if people just want 604 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: to write it down right now and we're going to 605 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 1: get a bunch of hopefully money flowing your way and 606 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: help fix this system that wrongfully convicted Stephanie Spurgeon, Amanda 607 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: Broomfield and so many others. 608 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 3: Well, that would be amazing. My website is Miller for 609 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 3: State Attorney dot com. You can get involved and you 610 00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,760 Speaker 3: can donate securely and easily through my website. I'm on 611 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 3: pretty much every social media platform. 612 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 1: So now we turn to my favorite part of the show, 613 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: and everyone who's a regular listener knows what to expect, 614 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: and by that I mean closing arguments, and for anyone 615 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: who's new to this, closing arguments works very simply. First, 616 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: I once again think our incredible guests today, Alison Miller, 617 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: attorney and candidate for State's Attorney in the State of Florida, 618 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 1: Seth Miller, executive director of the Florida Innocence Project and 619 00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: personal hero of mine, and Stephanie Expurge in my new 620 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: personal Hero. And what happens next is I turned my 621 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: microphone off and leave each of yours on so that 622 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,240 Speaker 1: you can share any final thoughts that we haven't maybe 623 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:14,279 Speaker 1: covered yet, or anything else you want to say. I'm 624 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: just going to kick back in my chair. Let's start 625 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,479 Speaker 1: with Seth and Allison, and then just hand the mic 626 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: off to Stephanie and she'll take us out. 627 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:24,719 Speaker 5: So one of the things that I think about coming 628 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,719 Speaker 5: out of these cases and working on others now is 629 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 5: how these things keep happening. We talked about it here, 630 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 5: and I wonder what we can do to prevent them 631 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 5: from happening in the future, and how we can end 632 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,120 Speaker 5: what is like a cottage industry of medical fabrication. And 633 00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 5: so that to me is the next step of this. 634 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 5: We should continue to get people out of prison who 635 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 5: are innocent, who put in prison for accidents or for 636 00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 5: things that have medical causes that weren't even crimes at all. 637 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 5: This is the leading cause of wrongful conviction and women. 638 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:55,920 Speaker 5: We have to also think about how we can prevent 639 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 5: it in the first place, and there has to be 640 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 5: a change in the medical community. If medical doctors are 641 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,040 Speaker 5: still being trained every day in medical school to make 642 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 5: the same mistakes that the medical doctors in this case 643 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 5: and other cases have made and to me, that's the 644 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 5: next stage of how do we prevent this and really 645 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,840 Speaker 5: just eradicate this fabrication from the criminal legal system. 646 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 3: Jason, I want to echo what you said is that 647 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 3: Seth and Stephanie especially are personal heroes of mine as well, 648 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 3: and Stephanie is part of the reason why I am 649 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 3: running for state attorney. If people like us don't do 650 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 3: this type of work, then nothing will ever change. People 651 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 3: have to be more involved in their local downbout elections, 652 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 3: whether it's called the district attorney or the state attorney. 653 00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 3: We have to take ownership in what prosecution looks like 654 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 3: in our jurisdictions or this sort of thing will continue 655 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,959 Speaker 3: to perpetuate. And so if elected state Attorney, I don't 656 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:58,239 Speaker 3: intend to prosecute child abuse cases based exclusively on the 657 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 3: testimony of doctor Sally Smith. I've already enlisted people like 658 00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 3: Seth and Kate understanding we're going to have to continue 659 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 3: prosecuting child abuse. Of course, everyone wants child abuse prosecuted, 660 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 3: but we need to do it with reliable forensic evidence. 661 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 3: And we have seen repeatedly in this jurisdiction at the 662 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 3: very least that this pediatric is a danger, and everyone 663 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,360 Speaker 3: frankly seems willing to ignore it. 664 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: Stephanie closing arguments well, I. 665 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:25,680 Speaker 4: Would like to start by thanking Allison. I appreciate your 666 00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,439 Speaker 4: confidence in me coming into this. I also, of course 667 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 4: have to thank Seth the Florida Ennison's Project, Kate Judson 668 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:37,240 Speaker 4: from the Center of Integrity and Forensic Sciences, Josh Teffer 669 00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 4: from the Exoneration Project, all of their staff, the experts, 670 00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 4: and all the law students, because it took an army 671 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 4: to bring me home. And I'd also like to thank 672 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 4: all the people who donate and support organizations like this, 673 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 4: because if it wasn't for your support, people like me 674 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 4: would still be BeTrapped behind those prisons. I'd like to 675 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 4: urge law enforcement and medical staff to not assume abuse 676 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 4: when they see a triad of injuries, to not race 677 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 4: in emotionally charged and be more diligent. I hope that 678 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 4: my story brings awareness to shaking baby syndrome and abuse 679 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:27,720 Speaker 4: and head trauma. I appreciate you allowing me to share 680 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 4: my story for the first time today. Thank you Jason. 681 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,839 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 682 00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Clibern, 683 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: and Kevin Wardis, with research by Lyla Robinson. The music 684 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated 685 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram 686 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and 687 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well well as at 688 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: Lava for Good. On all three platforms, you can also 689 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,680 Speaker 1: follow me on both TikTok and Instagram at its. Jason 690 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: flam Ravel Conviction is the production of Lava for Good 691 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: podcast and association with Signal Company Number one