1
00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,920
Speaker 1: Sometimes he passed around the offering baskets like three four

2
00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,160
Speaker 1: times because God gave him a number, and someone stopped

3
00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:16,119
Speaker 1: tithing right And I left early that night, and my

4
00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,840
Speaker 1: dad told me there's something off.

5
00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:20,200
Speaker 2: I don't like it.

6
00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,000
Speaker 3: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. I'm

7
00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,400
Speaker 3: Jess Cossavetto, executive producer of the Netflix series Dancing for

8
00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:34,000
Speaker 3: the Devil The Seven M TikTok Cult. This documentary series

9
00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,040
Speaker 3: explored the story of Robert Shin, the La based Chakinda

10
00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,639
Speaker 3: Church and Seven M Films. Shin founded Chakina Church over

11
00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,640
Speaker 3: two decades ago before establishing seven M Films and is

12
00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,720
Speaker 3: named in a civil lawsuit alleging abuse and cult like behavior.

13
00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:50,080
Speaker 4: And I'm Clia Gray, former member of Chakina Church and

14
00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:53,559
Speaker 4: Seven M Films. In this powerful episode, Just and I

15
00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,640
Speaker 4: sit down with past guests Angela, former wife of Chicina

16
00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,800
Speaker 4: Church and Seven M Films member, James Beata, Ash Derek,

17
00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,240
Speaker 4: and her best friend Lacey to discuss their harrowing experiences

18
00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:07,120
Speaker 4: at Hospitality Church led by pastor David. They share how

19
00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,199
Speaker 4: their journey within the church, marked by fear based teachings

20
00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,000
Speaker 4: and emotional trauma, led them to question their faith and

21
00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:14,679
Speaker 4: ultimately leave the situation.

22
00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,240
Speaker 3: Angela and Lacey reveal the impact of Pastor David's control

23
00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,640
Speaker 3: over relationships, while also touching on the lasting effects on

24
00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,039
Speaker 3: their personal lives and friendship. Now they are dedicated to

25
00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,639
Speaker 3: raising awareness about the ongoing harm caused by Pastor David

26
00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,240
Speaker 3: and emphasize the importance of compassion for those covering from

27
00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:58,560
Speaker 3: cult like environments. And now our conversation with Angela and Lacey. Hello, ladies,

28
00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,400
Speaker 3: thank you so much for joining us on this week's episode.

29
00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:04,080
Speaker 3: How are you. We're good?

30
00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:09,840
Speaker 5: Well, I'm good, Yeah, good. Hired school, We're hired like always. Yeah.

31
00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,320
Speaker 3: Well, Lacey, thank you for joining us. You know, obviously

32
00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,240
Speaker 3: we've had a conversation with Angela in the past. I

33
00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:20,080
Speaker 3: think I referenced her episode on a regular basis on

34
00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:23,360
Speaker 3: the show. It was one of my favorite episodes that

35
00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,239
Speaker 3: we recorded. I felt it was so incredibly powerful, and

36
00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:30,680
Speaker 3: when she was talking about hospitality and Pastor David, I

37
00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:33,480
Speaker 3: think we all were just like leaning in being like wait,

38
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:35,840
Speaker 3: what what is that? And we wanted to know more.

39
00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:40,000
Speaker 4: Yes, I've heard so much about this church because you know,

40
00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,480
Speaker 4: Kevin was involved in it, and even just hearing people

41
00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:45,680
Speaker 4: in Chkina talk about Pastor David and some of the

42
00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,960
Speaker 4: things before. So I'm very intrigued to know, like what

43
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,400
Speaker 4: it was like back then and also like just the

44
00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:54,880
Speaker 4: origin story of it all. So how did you first

45
00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,520
Speaker 4: get introduced to hospitality and what were some of your

46
00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:01,040
Speaker 4: initial thoughts when you had met Pastor David.

47
00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,239
Speaker 5: My mom actually got introduced to it through a friend,

48
00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,840
Speaker 5: and I guess originally she talked to him on the

49
00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:11,679
Speaker 5: phone and he prophesied to her, I guess, and from

50
00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:13,600
Speaker 5: there she started going. First she went to a couple

51
00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,919
Speaker 5: of services, and then there was like five of us,

52
00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,160
Speaker 5: all my brothers and sisters, so she took us all

53
00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,639
Speaker 5: with her. So the first time I met him, he

54
00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,880
Speaker 5: tried to prophesy over me, and it was so weird.

55
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,079
Speaker 5: I was like, what is this? What is he saying?

56
00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:27,720
Speaker 5: He tried to say I was going to be pregnant

57
00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,240
Speaker 5: by sixteen, a bunch of different things. So when my

58
00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,400
Speaker 5: mom heard that, she's like, okay, no, we got to

59
00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:34,800
Speaker 5: start going to this church and make sure that that

60
00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:38,440
Speaker 5: doesn't happen. So that's when he kind of took me

61
00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:40,760
Speaker 5: under his wing, as he calls it, and he had

62
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,720
Speaker 5: to mentor me or whatever so I had to hang

63
00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,040
Speaker 5: out with him on a regular basis. And at that time,

64
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,080
Speaker 5: I was so shy. I was so shy. I didn't

65
00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,880
Speaker 5: like to be around older men specifically, so being around

66
00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,240
Speaker 5: him was really uncomfortable. And he had a clothing shop

67
00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,480
Speaker 5: in downtown La, so my mom would go drop me

68
00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,280
Speaker 5: off and I would have to stay there with him

69
00:03:59,360 --> 00:03:59,800
Speaker 5: all day.

70
00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:01,400
Speaker 4: How old were you at the time.

71
00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:04,760
Speaker 5: I think I was like fifteen. Yeah, And so from there,

72
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,320
Speaker 5: a lot of the dancers would go to his clothing shop.

73
00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,680
Speaker 5: So it kind of turned into something like a hangout

74
00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:13,720
Speaker 5: thing when all the dancers started coming around and I

75
00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,120
Speaker 5: started getting introduced to them. That's how he kind of

76
00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,760
Speaker 5: made it into a fun thing, was using the dancers

77
00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:22,080
Speaker 5: and the whole hangout group. Everybody's young and wants to

78
00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:24,360
Speaker 5: have an excuse to stay out late and all hang

79
00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:26,719
Speaker 5: out and be on their own. So that kind of

80
00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:28,840
Speaker 5: drew us in. And then I went to high school

81
00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,600
Speaker 5: with Lacey, so we invited her to come and then

82
00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:33,000
Speaker 5: she started going with us.

83
00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:36,360
Speaker 3: And Lacey, what drew you to the church at first,

84
00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,520
Speaker 3: and how did your involvement in kind of the creative

85
00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,119
Speaker 3: and dance community influence your experience there?

86
00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,240
Speaker 1: So before hospitality, Angela and I went to church together

87
00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:51,080
Speaker 1: at Calvary Chapel. So upon like leaving that church in

88
00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,240
Speaker 1: a way pastor day, the kind of came across as

89
00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:58,240
Speaker 1: this prophet that God spoke directly through and as a

90
00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:00,680
Speaker 1: young girl that was just searching for us answers and

91
00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:05,800
Speaker 1: you know, just susceptible, naive and vulnerable, my own intergenerational

92
00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:10,159
Speaker 1: trauma following me close behind that. We really just wanted

93
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,880
Speaker 1: to do good, We really wanted.

94
00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,839
Speaker 5: To follow the Bible and live for God.

95
00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,160
Speaker 1: And I was also a dancer. I was a big

96
00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:23,279
Speaker 1: girl at the time, and you know that really drew

97
00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:26,240
Speaker 1: me in and it's like, oh, you know, this must

98
00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,920
Speaker 1: be a safe space, this must be acceptable, this must

99
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:33,360
Speaker 1: be the way. And it just got darker from there,

100
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,560
Speaker 1: like just like wow, this is a bit sinister. Just

101
00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,800
Speaker 1: his teachings and you know, just keeping us in fear,

102
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,480
Speaker 1: constantly studying out of the Book of Revelations and talking

103
00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,680
Speaker 1: about end times and if we're you know, making it

104
00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:51,080
Speaker 1: or not. And Angela and I were reminiscing and thinking

105
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:53,360
Speaker 1: back and it's just like wow, we were really scared.

106
00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:56,400
Speaker 1: We were really scared of going to hell, and we

107
00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,239
Speaker 1: were really scared of even on our good days, something

108
00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,440
Speaker 1: always had to be oh right.

109
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:05,000
Speaker 4: It's something that we've spoken about on the podcast before

110
00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,800
Speaker 4: about how a lot of these people who run these

111
00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:11,520
Speaker 4: high control groups really pray after the people who believe

112
00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:13,320
Speaker 4: they're doing good and who want to do good in

113
00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,720
Speaker 4: the world. And I think it's so sad when our

114
00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,920
Speaker 4: desire for goodness and good things and to build ourselves

115
00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:23,840
Speaker 4: as like good Christian women gets taken advantage of. And

116
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,760
Speaker 4: something that I heard you mention, So even first time

117
00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,160
Speaker 4: meeting him, David, he referred to himself as a prophet,

118
00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:34,080
Speaker 4: and right away that was something that was really big

119
00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:37,719
Speaker 4: in Chikina, like prophesying over each other. And you know,

120
00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:40,640
Speaker 4: Robert Shin, as the leader of Chicina, would often also

121
00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,840
Speaker 4: claim to be a prophet. So he said right off

122
00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:45,520
Speaker 4: the bat, he was like, I'm a prophet of God.

123
00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,320
Speaker 4: I hear directly from God. What was that like? And

124
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,680
Speaker 4: how did that shape your experience with him?

125
00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,240
Speaker 5: It kind of in a way made us see him

126
00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,239
Speaker 5: as God because he would say that he spoke directly

127
00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,800
Speaker 5: for God, so hearing from him is like hearing from

128
00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,839
Speaker 5: God himself. And he would always say, like giving a

129
00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,520
Speaker 5: profit a gift gives you special blessings from God. So

130
00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:11,600
Speaker 5: people were constantly gifting him whatever they can, food, clothes, money, anything.

131
00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 5: So it's like he was the God for many of us,

132
00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,520
Speaker 5: and we didn't realize like anything that he said we

133
00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,560
Speaker 5: all did. We took it like it was directly from

134
00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,360
Speaker 5: God and we had to do it or else we

135
00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:22,520
Speaker 5: were going against God's will.

136
00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,680
Speaker 1: He was the man that knew He was the man

137
00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:27,440
Speaker 1: that knew me better than I knew me.

138
00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,320
Speaker 5: And then people would I feel like we would go

139
00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,280
Speaker 5: to church waiting to hear what God wanted to tell

140
00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,679
Speaker 5: us that night, or what we needed to hear about

141
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,320
Speaker 5: whatever stage in our life that we're in.

142
00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,640
Speaker 3: So going back a little bit, do you know how

143
00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,400
Speaker 3: he got involved with the dance community and how he

144
00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:50,640
Speaker 3: started to I guess essentially recruit or get dancers to

145
00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:52,360
Speaker 3: his church in the first place.

146
00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,960
Speaker 5: Well, when I went there, I don't know exactly know

147
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:58,560
Speaker 5: how it started out, because by the time I started going,

148
00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,240
Speaker 5: Chez was already there and some of the dancers. So

149
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,960
Speaker 5: he called Chez his son, So that was David was

150
00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:12,160
Speaker 5: Chez's spiritual pops to call him. So they had, I guess,

151
00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:14,760
Speaker 5: in a weird way of father son relationship, and Chess

152
00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,480
Speaker 5: would be the one to bring in a lot of dancers.

153
00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,240
Speaker 5: I mean, dancers just naturally followed him. So they heard

154
00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:21,360
Speaker 5: Chez was going to church, they wanted to go too,

155
00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:23,840
Speaker 5: So there was a big group of crump dancers at

156
00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:24,239
Speaker 5: the church.

157
00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,560
Speaker 4: After the break, we continue our conversation with Angela and Lacey.

158
00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:31,480
Speaker 4: This is forgive me.

159
00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:37,120
Speaker 3: For I have followed. We'll be right back. Welcome back

160
00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,200
Speaker 3: to forgive me for I have followed. Now back to

161
00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:44,520
Speaker 3: our conversation with Angela and Lacey.

162
00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,560
Speaker 4: You mentioned that you had joined really young, or fourteen

163
00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:51,520
Speaker 4: fifteen at the time. Going around. What was his relationships

164
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,199
Speaker 4: like regards to your parents, You said you were there

165
00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,720
Speaker 4: almost every day spending time with him directly.

166
00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,120
Speaker 5: There's like something going on every single day of the

167
00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,520
Speaker 5: week pretty much, so we always had a reason to

168
00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,319
Speaker 5: be there. And then in my case, my mom went

169
00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,680
Speaker 5: to the church, so she ended up becoming part of

170
00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,959
Speaker 5: his ministry. So my mom was very involved. But there

171
00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:12,760
Speaker 5: was one point he had this thing where he would

172
00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,240
Speaker 5: say that he was giving all of us young people

173
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,480
Speaker 5: a place to hang out, like we're not in the clubs,

174
00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,840
Speaker 5: we're not going out partying. So this was our place,

175
00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:23,920
Speaker 5: and whether our parents agreed with it or not, this

176
00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:26,760
Speaker 5: is godswell and we're allowed to kind of not listen

177
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,559
Speaker 5: to them in this case because we're not doing anything

178
00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,280
Speaker 5: wrong quote unquote. My mom was fine with it for

179
00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,440
Speaker 5: the most part because she was also going. But there

180
00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,520
Speaker 5: was a certain point where when we got a little older,

181
00:09:38,559 --> 00:09:42,280
Speaker 5: me and one of my sisters, he kind of encouraged

182
00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:46,319
Speaker 5: us to be adults and kind of let us know

183
00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:48,120
Speaker 5: it was okay to make our own decisions and do

184
00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,360
Speaker 5: what we want. And even though my mom was in

185
00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,319
Speaker 5: the ministry, it kind of affected our relationship a little bit.

186
00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,560
Speaker 3: I can imagine, Lacey, was your mom or parents in

187
00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,200
Speaker 3: the church or was it just you that had joined?

188
00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:00,840
Speaker 5: Was just me?

189
00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:06,000
Speaker 1: My dad had visited once and right when he walked in,

190
00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:08,360
Speaker 1: he sat down. I think he was there for a

191
00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:11,760
Speaker 1: good hour hour and a half and he was just like,

192
00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,200
Speaker 1: when is the service going to start? When is it

193
00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,160
Speaker 1: going to start? When it's going to start, and it's

194
00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,560
Speaker 1: just it was the whole theatrics, the music would play,

195
00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,520
Speaker 1: and sometimes he passed around the offering baskets like three

196
00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:26,920
Speaker 1: four times because God gave him a number, and someone

197
00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:32,720
Speaker 1: sap tithing, right, and I left early that night with him,

198
00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,520
Speaker 1: and my dad told me there's something off. He goes,

199
00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,520
Speaker 1: I don't like it, and within me, I got really

200
00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:44,600
Speaker 1: frustrated because I felt that my dad was trying to

201
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,160
Speaker 1: come in between me and God and he just didn't understand.

202
00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,400
Speaker 1: He didn't see what I saw. And I remember asking

203
00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,240
Speaker 1: Pastor Dated what his thoughts were on Neil being my

204
00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:59,720
Speaker 1: parents over what God is telling me to do. He goes, Okay, well,

205
00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,240
Speaker 1: I will just say that you know, you must honor

206
00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,120
Speaker 1: your parents who but you know, are you going to

207
00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,360
Speaker 1: honor your earthly father? Are you going to honor your

208
00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,960
Speaker 1: godly father? And it put me in such a predicament

209
00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:12,559
Speaker 1: where I was just like, of course, I'm going to

210
00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:14,839
Speaker 1: obey God, you know, like he knows.

211
00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:17,800
Speaker 5: I think that was the case for most of the

212
00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,640
Speaker 5: young people that went there, because most of them went

213
00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,960
Speaker 5: alone without their parents. So I think for most that

214
00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:24,880
Speaker 5: was the case. They were going against their parents to

215
00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:26,440
Speaker 5: stay at this church, which is.

216
00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,120
Speaker 3: Hard because I feel like, as a parent, if you

217
00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,839
Speaker 3: know your kids at church, you would be like, okay,

218
00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,719
Speaker 3: well that feels like a safe environment to be in.

219
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:39,000
Speaker 3: But I would imagine that encouragement of disregarding parental guidance

220
00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:41,600
Speaker 3: and other authority figures would take a toll in your

221
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,640
Speaker 3: relationship with your parents. So yeah, over time, do you

222
00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:49,240
Speaker 3: feel that the church's environment also became more controlling if

223
00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,960
Speaker 3: he's having you start to distance yourself from your families,

224
00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,840
Speaker 3: Like when did that kind of shift? It seems like

225
00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,559
Speaker 3: it's like the start to something more like darker and Lacey,

226
00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,120
Speaker 3: you mentioned this earlier kind of quickly became something that

227
00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:02,960
Speaker 3: it wasn't.

228
00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,679
Speaker 5: Yeah, so once you're part of the church regularly, it

229
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,840
Speaker 5: was very controlling, like you couldn't do things without the

230
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,120
Speaker 5: pastor's permission, and he wouldn't straight out say that, but

231
00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,400
Speaker 5: he would say things to hint around it, like you

232
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:17,200
Speaker 5: have to make sure you're doing God's will, so to

233
00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:19,480
Speaker 5: go seek him for advice and all that stuff. So

234
00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:24,320
Speaker 5: people wouldn't move, they wouldn't get certain jobs, they wouldn't

235
00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,120
Speaker 5: do anything without his permission, and a lot of times,

236
00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:31,320
Speaker 5: like for example, me and James, we couldn't move for

237
00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:33,920
Speaker 5: the longest because he said that God said we couldn't

238
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,400
Speaker 5: move yet, or he couldn't get certain jobs or do

239
00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,160
Speaker 5: certain things. And it's a lot of people even lost

240
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,360
Speaker 5: their jobs going to this church because he said if

241
00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,760
Speaker 5: your job's keeping you from services, then it's keeping you

242
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,240
Speaker 5: from God. So people would miss work a lot, or

243
00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,360
Speaker 5: they're at church so late that they're going late to working,

244
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,000
Speaker 5: they get fired, and then their finances would be controlled

245
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,000
Speaker 5: by him. At the time, when I was in it,

246
00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,600
Speaker 5: it happened so naturally. You don't realize that it's happening

247
00:12:58,679 --> 00:12:59,320
Speaker 5: until you leave.

248
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:03,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, everything was pretty much controlled. From the music. We

249
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:08,280
Speaker 1: listened to movies, we're allowed to watch what's God's ungodly.

250
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,040
Speaker 1: And even when it came to dance, I remember we

251
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,480
Speaker 1: had brought another friend. He did cultural dance, she did

252
00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:20,840
Speaker 1: you know, hula, she did Tehesian dance, and he told

253
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,680
Speaker 1: her that she's praising other gods, so that's something that

254
00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:24,920
Speaker 1: she's going to need to stop.

255
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:27,880
Speaker 3: Oh wow, And that's the culture.

256
00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:32,680
Speaker 1: So then when it came to me breaking because it

257
00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,920
Speaker 1: was like secular music, when he tried to take that

258
00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,199
Speaker 1: from me, that's when I was just like, dance is

259
00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:44,880
Speaker 1: my first versus love. That's again and without me knowing

260
00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,480
Speaker 1: what I was doing. The exit from that was really

261
00:13:48,880 --> 00:13:51,400
Speaker 1: a different type of traumatic experience.

262
00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,120
Speaker 5: I think he struggled with that a lot. Lacy with

263
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,400
Speaker 5: the whole breakdancing thing. They tried to get her to

264
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,880
Speaker 5: do crump dancing too for a while, kind of like

265
00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:03,560
Speaker 5: move over to that style of dancing, because you know,

266
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:05,840
Speaker 5: David had more control over that group.

267
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,560
Speaker 3: Right, dance is your form of expression, and if you're

268
00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:11,840
Speaker 3: being forced to express yourself in a way that just

269
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,520
Speaker 3: doesn't feel organic to you, Like I can only imagine

270
00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,520
Speaker 3: as a past dancer myself, that would be very challenging

271
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:24,240
Speaker 3: and quite uncomfortable. But with that control aspect, what was

272
00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:28,800
Speaker 3: his like teachings on sickness after life? What were his

273
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:29,920
Speaker 3: beliefs on that?

274
00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,560
Speaker 5: So I feel like most of his teachings were either

275
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:39,000
Speaker 5: about hell and how close it was to Jesus coming

276
00:14:39,040 --> 00:14:42,520
Speaker 5: back and we had to be ready, or teaching about

277
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:47,640
Speaker 5: relationships and how women had to be when they're living

278
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,640
Speaker 5: a godly life. And it changed our way of thinking,

279
00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:55,320
Speaker 5: our thought process, everything. I remember. Even there was one

280
00:14:55,360 --> 00:15:00,240
Speaker 5: service he he looking back, it's just really silly and

281
00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,280
Speaker 5: kind of stupid, but he said that if you had

282
00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:05,800
Speaker 5: enough faith in God, you can eat anything you want

283
00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,440
Speaker 5: and not gain weight. And the whole church kind of

284
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,440
Speaker 5: took that and ran with it. And I remember saying

285
00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,320
Speaker 5: to everybody, I'm not doing that you guys are all

286
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,400
Speaker 5: going to gain weight and getting healthy, like, no, I'm

287
00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,080
Speaker 5: not doing that, And the whole church started getting bigger,

288
00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:19,880
Speaker 5: and he said, well, it's because you guys don't have

289
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,680
Speaker 5: enough faith in God. So everything had to do with faith.

290
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:24,400
Speaker 5: I feel like he would give a prophecy and if

291
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,720
Speaker 5: it didn't come true, his excuse was, Oh, it's because

292
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:29,440
Speaker 5: you didn't have enough faith. If you got sick, he

293
00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,720
Speaker 5: doesn't encourage going to the doctors, you got to pray

294
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:33,760
Speaker 5: about it. And if you don't get better, you didn't

295
00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:35,040
Speaker 5: have faith in God.

296
00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:37,120
Speaker 4: So you said, one of the main topics that he

297
00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:40,440
Speaker 4: would teach about was like relationships and how like men

298
00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,200
Speaker 4: and women should be in their relationships. What were some

299
00:15:43,240 --> 00:15:44,640
Speaker 4: of the things that he would teach as far as

300
00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,080
Speaker 4: like gender roles and the role of a wife and

301
00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:47,600
Speaker 4: a husband.

302
00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:52,640
Speaker 5: So our church was non me and lace. You just

303
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:55,240
Speaker 5: spoke about this earlier. Our church was known as like

304
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,040
Speaker 5: the hookup church. Everybody would end up getting together and

305
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,080
Speaker 5: getting married, and so our church had all the couples

306
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:07,080
Speaker 5: and everything. So I guess maybe that's why he's as

307
00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,280
Speaker 5: an excuse for that topic so often. But it was

308
00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,040
Speaker 5: always the wife has to you know, support her husband

309
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,440
Speaker 5: and everything that he does. He's the head of the household,

310
00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:17,920
Speaker 5: makes the decisions, and most of the husbands that were

311
00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,080
Speaker 5: there obviously went to David for all their decisions. So

312
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,600
Speaker 5: it was us essentially listening to David through our husbands,

313
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:31,160
Speaker 5: I guess, but it was very in my case. So

314
00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:36,360
Speaker 5: with James's mom, she ended up in a situation with

315
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,920
Speaker 5: her health and ended up in the hospital and it

316
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,120
Speaker 5: didn't turn out well, and he prophesied that she would

317
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,320
Speaker 5: get better. When she didn't get better, he blamed me

318
00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:48,480
Speaker 5: for it, saying I was it was because I was

319
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,400
Speaker 5: a bad Yeah, I was a bad wife. So that's

320
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:53,720
Speaker 5: why our prayers weren't getting answered. And he said that

321
00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,080
Speaker 5: in front of the whole church. So I remember James

322
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,600
Speaker 5: wanted to divorce me. Everyone started talking about me and

323
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,280
Speaker 5: I it was so broken. I was like, oh my god,

324
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:04,239
Speaker 5: I'm the reason why it's not getting better. So I

325
00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,480
Speaker 5: studied the Bible from front to back, everything there was

326
00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,080
Speaker 5: about being a wife. I made sure I lived it

327
00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,679
Speaker 5: and I did it perfectly. So I feel like for me,

328
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:18,959
Speaker 5: the whole wife thing and living according to the Bible,

329
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:22,359
Speaker 5: you know, the proverb's wife and all that. It was

330
00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,960
Speaker 5: a little more extreme for me, and I had like

331
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:27,119
Speaker 5: I would have Bible studies with Lacy Lacy. I need

332
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:28,720
Speaker 5: to learn there, so we got to study this. We

333
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:30,919
Speaker 5: gotta make sure I'm doing all this. But it was

334
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,840
Speaker 5: because I felt like I had so much pressure on me.

335
00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:37,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember you being in such high anxiety about

336
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,280
Speaker 1: it too. It's like just being isolated and called out.

337
00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,919
Speaker 1: And he'd often time to do that. He'd call people

338
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,280
Speaker 1: out and sing and it was almost like herd mentality

339
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:49,560
Speaker 1: in the church, where it's just like a pastor Dayda's

340
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,600
Speaker 1: something about you. Everyone felt that way about you, and

341
00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,800
Speaker 1: it's just it's a whole nother form of control. It's

342
00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:00,960
Speaker 1: a whole nother form of pressure and isolation. Yeah.

343
00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,959
Speaker 5: I would spend so many days in that Bible. Whoever

344
00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,439
Speaker 5: came around me, Hey, let's Bible study, let's look this up.

345
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:07,440
Speaker 5: Let's talk about this.

346
00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:12,840
Speaker 3: Do you feel that that affected your mental health and

347
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,680
Speaker 3: how did you respond to that feeling of I would

348
00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,240
Speaker 3: imagine guilt, caring what those accusations were.

349
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,880
Speaker 5: What I remember the most is not putting so much

350
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,080
Speaker 5: thought into it, just figuring out how to move forward.

351
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,280
Speaker 5: I felt like it was such an urgent thing that

352
00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 5: had to be fixed right away. So I just got

353
00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:35,679
Speaker 5: into the Bible and did whatever I could do the

354
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 5: quickest I can. And then at the time, we had

355
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,479
Speaker 5: to go pray for her daily. So when James wasn't there,

356
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:43,960
Speaker 5: I never got to I was the only wife that

357
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:46,400
Speaker 5: never got to travel because when he was in town,

358
00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:47,880
Speaker 5: I had to be the one to go every day

359
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,119
Speaker 5: to pray for her. So I was constantly fascinating. I

360
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,639
Speaker 5: was praying, I was doing whatever I could to make

361
00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:56,400
Speaker 5: sure I was in good standing with God. So when

362
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:58,320
Speaker 5: I went to pray for her that day, that God

363
00:18:58,320 --> 00:19:01,080
Speaker 5: would hear me. So I feel like for me, I

364
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,960
Speaker 5: don't remember going into a depression or anything. I was

365
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,439
Speaker 5: just okay, I got to fix this fast. And you

366
00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,199
Speaker 5: know what, the weird thing, I didn't know what I

367
00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,160
Speaker 5: had to fix, so like there was just saying I'm

368
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,920
Speaker 5: a bad wife. Okay, why I wasn't a bad wife.

369
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:20,600
Speaker 5: So I was just studying everything that I could, reading books,

370
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:21,639
Speaker 5: going through the Bible.

371
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:24,639
Speaker 3: When did you both leave the church?

372
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:27,320
Speaker 5: So I think at the time when I left Lacey,

373
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:29,600
Speaker 5: you weren't going regularly at that time. I don't think

374
00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:30,680
Speaker 5: you left a little before.

375
00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:32,520
Speaker 1: Huh.

376
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,199
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I mentioned last time when we spoke, I

377
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,720
Speaker 5: left because of the incident with Jaden when he tried

378
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 5: to say that Jayden had a demon in him, because

379
00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,000
Speaker 5: we went to the restroom, and then when I spoke

380
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,720
Speaker 5: to my friends about it, and you know, everything came out.

381
00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,680
Speaker 5: Lacey was one of the first people that I called.

382
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 5: We spoke about everything. I mean, Lacey was around to

383
00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:54,919
Speaker 5: see a lot and noticed a lot, so when I

384
00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,000
Speaker 5: was able to tell her very specific things, it was

385
00:19:58,160 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 5: easier for her to understand.

386
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:00,280
Speaker 2: There.

387
00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,400
Speaker 5: Lacey never of course, she never went back either.

388
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,320
Speaker 3: When we returned the conclusion to our conversation with Angela

389
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,800
Speaker 3: and Lacey, this is forgive me for I have followed.

390
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,439
Speaker 4: Welcome back to forgive me for I have followed. Here's

391
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:23,199
Speaker 4: the conclusion of our conversation with Angela and Lacey. What

392
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 4: had pushed you to leave?

393
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:24,960
Speaker 5: Lacey?

394
00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,120
Speaker 4: You said it was a few months before the incident

395
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:29,639
Speaker 4: with Jaden. So what caused you to decide this was

396
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:30,800
Speaker 4: not the place for me to.

397
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 1: Be When he tried to make me stop dancing?

398
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 4: Wow, yeah, this is.

399
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,280
Speaker 1: The one thing that is my expression, It's my passion.

400
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,359
Speaker 1: It makes me me like breaking was literally a lifeline.

401
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 1: It saved me from a whole lot of other things

402
00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 1: from this church also, And I don't mean for that

403
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,200
Speaker 1: to sound cliche, but it was just like the one

404
00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,840
Speaker 1: each other of my soul. That's just like, you can't

405
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:05,159
Speaker 1: have this right. And I didn't even understand it to

406
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:08,360
Speaker 1: that depth at that time. I was just like it

407
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:12,680
Speaker 1: was just such a I felt so torn mm hmm,

408
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 1: and I was still a wreck, but I had I

409
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:19,320
Speaker 1: had dance to express that unconscious stuff through.

410
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,959
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, I think that's really beautiful that an art

411
00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:26,440
Speaker 4: form that you give so much to can give back

412
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,680
Speaker 4: to you in ways that you don't even recognize when

413
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 4: you're in the moment. So you had it was the

414
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 4: conversation they had tried to make you leave dance, and

415
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,159
Speaker 4: that's when you realize, no, that's the part of me

416
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 4: that you can't have a few months later, the incident

417
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,439
Speaker 4: happened with Jaden and Angela. You were like, Okay, that

418
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 4: was your moment, your wake up of like, this is

419
00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:48,120
Speaker 4: not a safe environment for myself or my son, and

420
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,119
Speaker 4: you decided to leave. And you said Lacey was one

421
00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:52,920
Speaker 4: of the first people that you called when you got out.

422
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,400
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, what was that like reconnecting and like being

423
00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,200
Speaker 4: able to go through your experiences together from this church.

424
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 5: It was nice to honestly have someone that understood, because

425
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,959
Speaker 5: not everybody understands these type of situations, and you're so isolated,

426
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,439
Speaker 5: so when you leave, it's like you have nobody or

427
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 5: nothing to go to and you're relearning how to live

428
00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,919
Speaker 5: life all over again. So it was nice to have Lacey.

429
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,159
Speaker 5: I feel like we talked every day for a while

430
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 5: because that was my only person. When other people finally

431
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 5: decided to leave after me, It's like everyone was healing

432
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 5: in their own way, so we couldn't exactly help each

433
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,439
Speaker 5: other at that time. We're trying to figure out how

434
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 5: to help ourselves, right, So me and Lacy were kind

435
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 5: of there for each other through that.

436
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:44,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do remember being really shocked, and I specifically

437
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,679
Speaker 1: remember this feeling of really, we don't have to go

438
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 1: back things.

439
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think we didn't realize how much pressure we

440
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 5: were under for everything to make sure we make it

441
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 5: to Heaven, that we don't make little mistakes. Even me,

442
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 5: like he would tell us if we got songs stuck

443
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 5: in our head that we still had too much of

444
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,040
Speaker 5: the devil in us. So I literally trained my mind

445
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 5: to if worldly music came on, I would sing Christian

446
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 5: music in my head. So even after leaving the church,

447
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 5: it took me years to be able to listen to

448
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 5: music regularly, to be able to hear the words and

449
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,199
Speaker 5: learn songs like that was a big thing for me.

450
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 5: So it's like little things you don't realize that happened

451
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 5: until after we left.

452
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 4: I guess, yeah, I know that unlearning process can be

453
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 4: really gruesome because it's like build yourself up in a

454
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:36,800
Speaker 4: certain way and you're like, I don't even think this

455
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 4: is the real me, and then you have to find

456
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 4: a way to dig to get back to you. Okay,

457
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 4: what like what do I like? What kind of music

458
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 4: do I like? Because I've been told for so long

459
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,399
Speaker 4: that this is demonic, this is something not to be touched.

460
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 4: I think it's really incredible that you guys have both

461
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,040
Speaker 4: had each other through this process and like coming out

462
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 4: of the church. I think that was one of the

463
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 4: things that really helped Kevin and I leaving Chicaina. Was

464
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 4: a couple of other people left with us, and so

465
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 4: we felt like, oh, I'm not just alone, I'm not

466
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 4: just crazy. It wasn't just oh God demon possessed and

467
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,600
Speaker 4: decided to leave the church, like how the church makes

468
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 4: it seem.

469
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 3: Angela, I do have a question since we last spoke,

470
00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 3: have you had any contact with James? Has there been

471
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 3: any changes to the relationship with Jaden? You know, wishful

472
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 3: think and hopeful thinking.

473
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 5: Okay, So after the podcast, I think it was about

474
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 5: maybe a little less than a week, I got a

475
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 5: text message and all I said was wow, And that

476
00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 5: just didn't sit right with me because I'm like, he

477
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 5: obviously knew I did the podcast, and that's what you

478
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 5: choose to say. You don't ask how Jayden's doing. You

479
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,679
Speaker 5: don't ask because obviously in that podcast it was clearly

480
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 5: said that I did it because he asked me to,

481
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 5: and you didn't ask about him at all. So I

482
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,959
Speaker 5: sent a not so very nice text message back, and

483
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 5: I feel like the more I've found out about the

484
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 5: teachings and about how hit kind of worked, I haven't

485
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 5: been so nice, which you know, he needs to be

486
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 5: called out, so whatever. I've been calling him out on

487
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 5: a lot of things, especially when I heard about the

488
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,840
Speaker 5: teaching that they don't reach out to family unless God

489
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 5: puts it on their heart for them to want to

490
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 5: love them or something. I'm like, Okay, well, in Jaden's case, dude,

491
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 5: does God never put it on your heart? What's going

492
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 5: on there? So I think we're kind of in a

493
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,240
Speaker 5: stage where Jaden's just not really talking to him right now,

494
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,000
Speaker 5: and we're okay with that. He'll reach out every now

495
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 5: and then and ask how Jaden's doing. But that's pretty

496
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:28,399
Speaker 5: much as far as it goes.

497
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 4: You go. Angela stand on that because I agree that

498
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 4: things do need to be called out, and especially, like

499
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 4: you said, the teaching's there. It's like when God puts

500
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 4: it on your heart, but it's really like when I

501
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,400
Speaker 4: tell you to like Robert by God, he means himself.

502
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 4: So it's like, yes, when God puts it on your heart,

503
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 4: and I'll let you know when that happens. Yeah, it's discouraging.

504
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 4: I could see why. It's you know what, I think

505
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 4: we're going to limit the communication for this time period

506
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 4: because it's a dangerous group. I do feel like you

507
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 4: were acting in the best interests of your families, So

508
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 4: I really commend you for being strong and being able

509
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 4: to take that stance of like, look, I understand, but

510
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 4: at the same time, this is unacceptable.

511
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, Jaden deserves better, and so that's why I told him,

512
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 5: I'm like, you know what, God was right, the one

513
00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 5: from hospitality or the one now you're listening to two

514
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 5: different things. But yeah, I've been I've been calling him out,

515
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 5: but I'm like, my son deserves better.

516
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 3: So no, absolutely, I will say I do still have

517
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 3: a whole lot of questions on this group, just the

518
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 3: teachings and just more in depth of how this control

519
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 3: from the dance community happened and with the church and Angela.

520
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 3: You were so amazing to share your story with us

521
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 3: on another episode. But do you know, is he still

522
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 3: I was just going to ask, is this still happening?

523
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 5: So I actually looked him up, not that long, but

524
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 5: I think a couple weeks ago there. I could not

525
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 5: stay on his Instagram for long because his voice just it.

526
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,719
Speaker 5: I don't I don't like it. But yeah, I happened

527
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 5: to stumble across some pages and some of the little

528
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,840
Speaker 5: kids that were babies when I was there, little tiny

529
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 5: little kids, they're now singers in his church and they're

530
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 5: a lot older and a big part of his ministry.

531
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 5: So yeah, he's still going from what I saw. I

532
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 5: didn't stay long on his page, so I can't say

533
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,200
Speaker 5: for sure, but yeah, he still has his ministry.

534
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,479
Speaker 4: I heard he was selling barbecue plates.

535
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I saw that he has a little restaurant

536
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 5: in a Walmart somewhere. I don't know, so yeah, yeah,

537
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:34,719
Speaker 5: him and his right hand man. Yeah, they did it together.

538
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 3: Is that right hand man in quotes your mom's ex

539
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 3: husband or yeah.

540
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 5: My whole family was very much entangled in this truth.

541
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 3: And so just confirming that your mom is no longer Oh.

542
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 4: No, yeah, no. Do you know what caused your mom

543
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,919
Speaker 4: to divorce him? Was there a specific incident? Was it

544
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 4: when you left or what happened there.

545
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 5: When I left? So when I left, that's when I

546
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 5: brought everything out. Like I said, I knew a lot

547
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 5: about a lot of people and a lot of things,

548
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,720
Speaker 5: very specific things. So when people found out everything that

549
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 5: I said, people just left like there was no questioning it.

550
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,360
Speaker 5: There was no question at that point either. People were

551
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,199
Speaker 5: willing to listen and see it for what it was.

552
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 5: Because when I told my side of things, most people

553
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 5: can piece it together because they've seen little bits here

554
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 5: and there, So hearing the full story, they were able

555
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 5: to piece it together. So most of the church left.

556
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 5: Some of them decided to stay because they believed, you know,

557
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 5: he's a man of God, but he's still a mad

558
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 5: So we got to forgive him, and they took that

559
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 5: and decided to stay there for a while. And so

560
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 5: a couple years later, a whole other group left. But yeah,

561
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 5: my mom left right away after I told her everything.

562
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 4: Well, Angela, that was like, I'm glad you found the

563
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 4: courage to speak up, and you've probably saved a lot

564
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 4: of people a lot of grief by like speaking your

565
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 4: truth and letting people know what you've gone through and

566
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 4: the things that you have seen.

567
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, I hope.

568
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 4: So, I really think it's it's incredible that we've been

569
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 4: able to have both of you guys on to talk

570
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,320
Speaker 4: about this and your want to raise awareness for what

571
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 4: Pastor David has done and is potentially currently doing. So

572
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 4: what are your hopes for other people who may have

573
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 4: been affected by similar environments?

574
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 5: I guess just knowing that they're not alone. Like, I

575
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 5: didn't realize how common this is, And I think that's

576
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 5: the scariest part in leaving a situation like this is

577
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 5: imagining leaving and not having anyone having financial income, a job,

578
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 5: a family, somewhere to live. Like there's so many factors

579
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 5: that go into it. That keep people there. I mean,

580
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 5: depending on who it is. I would imagine a lot

581
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 5: of people do have a support system that they don't

582
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 5: realize that they have. Like people that they've cut off

583
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 5: for a church, usually they're still sticking around waiting and

584
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 5: hoping for them to come out. So my hopes is

585
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 5: if someone's in it, that they have enough strength to

586
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 5: stand on their own and leave and hopefully have a

587
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 5: nice support system to go to.

588
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: My hope would be that that they can read in

589
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: between the lines and understand like if whatever God they

590
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: believe in, if you're constantly on a high alert, if

591
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: you're constantly under stress, if you're constantly like in inner turmoil,

592
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,959
Speaker 1: that that's not it. Yeah, there's so much contradictory, you know,

593
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: for those you know who are listening. If your concern

594
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: is God, then you're supposed to know the word on

595
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 1: your own. You have a direct connection to whatever God

596
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 1: you believe in. And if you do believe in God,

597
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: then he comes or he or she they It comes

598
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: in so many different forms, It so many different languages,

599
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: so many different beliefs. It's it's not this one little

600
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: spec of sand on the beat.

601
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 3: We'd like to thank Angela and Lacy for sharing their

602
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 3: story with us on today's episode. We truly appreciate their

603
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 3: courage and speaking about their experience, and we wish them

604
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 3: all the best on their haling journey. Forgive Me For

605
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 3: I Have.

606
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 4: Followed is a production from wv Sound, Dirty Robert and

607
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 4: iHeartMedia's Michael tore podcast Network, hosted by me Khalia Gray

608
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 4: and me Jess Cosovetto. Forgive Me For I Have Followed

609
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 4: is produced by Aaron Burlson and Sophie Spencer Zavos.

610
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 3: Our executive producers are Khalia Gray, myself, Walmer Balderama, Leo

611
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 3: Klam and Aaron Burlison at wv Sound.

612
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 2: This episode was edited by Sean Tracy and features original

613
00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 2: music by Madison Davenport and Halo Boy. For more podcasts

614
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 2: from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

615
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows.

616
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 3: See you next

617
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 4: Week, See you next week,