WEBVTT - Sessions Releases New Strict Sentencing Guidelines (Audio) 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:04.120 Attorney General Jeff Sessions has rolled back criminal justice sentencing 0:00:04.120 --> 0:00:07.480 reforms put in place by the Obama administration, paving the 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:09.760 way to bring back the War on drugs. In a 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:13.680 sentencing memo to federal prosecutors, he instructed them to charge 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:17.480 defendants with the most serious offense is possible, most likely 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:22.360 to trigger severe mandatory minimum sentences. It means that we're 0:00:22.360 --> 0:00:26.120 going to meet our responsibility to enforce the law with 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:29.960 judgment and fairness. It is simply the right and moral 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.720 thing to do. The Session sentencing memo is similar to 0:00:33.800 --> 0:00:37.879 the Ashcroft sentencing memo. Under President George W. Bush, the 0:00:37.960 --> 0:00:41.720 Obama administration had put in place policies reducing harsh prison 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:45.480 sentences for non violent, low level in first time drug offenders, 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.680 leading to the first decline in the federal prison population 0:00:48.760 --> 0:00:53.040 in forty years. Joining us are sentencing experts Aimes Grauert, 0:00:53.159 --> 0:00:56.360 counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Heather McDonald 0:00:56.440 --> 0:01:00.320 fell at the Manhattan Institute. Ames Session has prom missed 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:03.680 law and order agenda since he came to office. He 0:01:03.760 --> 0:01:08.200 says tough new sentencing policies are necessary to combat what 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:12.119 he described as a surge of violent crime in cities. 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:19.280 Is there any evidence that strict sentencing accomplishes that? Hi, First, 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:21.440 thanks so much for having me. And second, no, I 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:24.520 don't think there's any evidence that rolling back to these 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:28.240 ashcraft air policies will help kind into crime at all. 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:31.640 If you look at an analysis, um that, if you 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:33.760 look at analysis from people like the Brennan Center and 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:36.760 that former Attorney General air Colder himself has put out, UH, 0:01:36.840 --> 0:01:40.080 there's no sign that cooperation rates for guilty please dropped. 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:43.360 There's no sign that the number of prosecutions of relatively 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.840 high level drug crimes dropped at all thanks to these 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.200 thanks to his charging policies, I don't think we'll see 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:53.840 any safety benefits, but we might see a return to 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.200 the same over incarceration trend that we've been dealing with 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.080 for decades. Heather, let me ask you the same question, 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.560 would is there a justification for this this changed by 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:06.640 the Attorney General. Well, for one thing, it's following the law. 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:12.400 The Congress and the Sentencing Commission mandated a certain penalty 0:02:12.680 --> 0:02:17.520 for possession of drugs with intent to distribute UH, and 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:22.800 the Holder Memo had instructed prosecutors to conceal the actual 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:28.840 amount that a defendant trafficker was caught with from the 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:33.880 judge so as not to trigger the mandatory minimum possibility, 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:37.200 something that is used by prosecutors in order to plea 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:42.480 bargain down a sentence in exchange for cooperation in naming 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:47.200 people higher up in a drug drug trafficking organization. So 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:53.600 this change simply restores uh congressional intent. If if Congress 0:02:53.639 --> 0:02:59.240 believes that the mandatory minimum penalties are too severe, it 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.960 should be up to Congress to change those, not not 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:06.680 prosecutors concealing the actual drug amounts that traffickers are caught with. 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:12.320 Aims describe what the holder memo did in your opinion, sure, 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:14.200 and I just want to push back on the notion 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:17.240 that this is somehow violating the law. Sessions clearly believe 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:19.320 the same thing. He said Zona four speech in Congress 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:22.040 a couple of years ago. But there's a there's a 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:26.040 broader interplay between the sentencing law that Congress passes and 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:29.720 the sentencing outcomes that defendant receipt. And that interplay involves 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:32.400 another key actor, and that's prosecutors. I was a prosecutor 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:34.760 for four years at the state level. UM, we made 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.120 broad use of our prosecutorial discretion to make sure that 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.920 the punishments at the crime. Uh, there's there's no law 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.000 that says prosecutors shouldn't do the exact same thing at 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:46.520 the federal level. Well, this was this preserves discretion. It 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:53.480 allows prosecutors to, uh, to not charge for the mandatory minimum. 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:58.400 It's the facts warranted. But the Holder memo basically instructed 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.760 prosecutors to conceal from the judge. And I would say 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:07.240 that the whole conceit of nonviolent drug traffickers, I think 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:11.680 is is fallacious. Uh. This February, eleven year old Tequilla 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:15.040 Holmes in Chicago was shot dead in the head with 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:17.200 a bullet to the head by a nineteen year old 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:22.839 marijuana dealer. James Comey, UH as FBI director, gave an 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:28.400 extraordinarily powerful speech in October at the University of Chicago 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:34.039 where he described a drug operation in in Arkansas that 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:39.200 was greeted by cheers and officers, officers of food, offers 0:04:39.200 --> 0:04:44.000 of food, and hugs by the predominantly black residents who 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:46.359 realized that they were no longer now going to be 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:52.000 living under the threat and Paul of violence Aimes. Let's 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:55.960 go for a moment with about thirty seconds about into 0:04:56.040 --> 0:05:00.320 the discretion idea, because Jeff Session says there's discretion, but 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:05.520 the prosecutors have to get recommendations of from outside the glands. 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:09.800 They have to go to supervisory approval and a documented explanation. 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:13.080 It's not just on their own. That's exactly right, And 0:05:13.240 --> 0:05:14.840 it was the same thing under the Holder Memo that 0:05:14.960 --> 0:05:17.360 the Holder Memo didn't say, prosecutors, you can charge withever 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:21.040 the whatever you want, regardless of approval. It set forth 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:24.200 a narrow, narrow number of criteria that had to be 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.880 satisfied before they reduce a charge and the type of 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.280 violent crime them. If McDonald's just talking about it wouldn't 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:32.760 have qualified for a Holder era departure from the guidelines. 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:37.159 Now you're right, Uh, Any departure from the maximum sentence 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.520 that Congress authorizes in any case has to be cleared 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.880 with either main Justice or u S Attorney. Since we 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:45.200 haven't don't have any HISSE attorneys confirmed by the Senate yet, 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:48.400 query how exactly that discretion will be used. We've been 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:52.280 talking about Attorney General Jeff's Sessions rolling back criminal justice 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:56.320 sentencing reforms and a sentencing memo to federal prosecutors instructing 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.000 them to charge defendants with the most serious offense is 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:03.839 possible most likely to trigger severe mandatory minimum sentences. And 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.719 our guests are Heather McDonald, she's a fellow at the 0:06:06.720 --> 0:06:10.440 Manhattan Institute, and Ames Groward, he is a counsel at 0:06:10.480 --> 0:06:15.400 the Brennan Center for Justice. Aims there was an effort, 0:06:15.440 --> 0:06:20.400 a bipartisan effort in Congress a few years ago to 0:06:20.880 --> 0:06:26.480 change the sentencing laws, the bipartisan Criminal Justice legislation, And 0:06:26.720 --> 0:06:32.400 there are some civil rights advocates, sentencing advocates, some Republicans 0:06:32.440 --> 0:06:36.719 in Congress who have been pursuing these sentencing reform measures, 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:41.320 who have been critical of Session sentencing. For example, Republican 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:44.359 Senator Mike Lee tweeted, to be tough on crime, we 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:48.560 have to be smart on crime. Tell us about the 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:53.960 bipartisan criminal justice legislation and what happened with it. I'm 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:55.800 happy too. It's it's actually, it's one of the most 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.360 heartening things I've seen in DC in a while. I think, uh, 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.120 you you would, you would think. And there was some 0:07:02.240 --> 0:07:05.240 fear that this bipartisan amentum we had going into the 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:10.600 election would have evaporated during a badly controversial, continuing political season. 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.600 But on the other hand, exactly like you said, we've 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:16.520 heard a lot of support from Mike Lee Rand Paul 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:22.000 who spoke to to criticize Attorney General Sessions. Um move 0:07:22.360 --> 0:07:24.280 uh and and that's a great sign. I'm hoping that 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:26.040 we can get the same amentum going that we had 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:30.200 last time. Uh. That was the sentenc Perform and Correction deck. 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:33.040 As the bill you're describing, it was sponsored by Senators 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:35.400 grass Lee and Durban and had a broad range of 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:39.200 bipartisan support. One of the very few Republican critics was 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.320 Jeff Sessions, who just happens to now be the Attorney General. 0:07:43.320 --> 0:07:46.400 How there isn't Jeff Sessions sort of an outlier on 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.520 this issue? You know? There there was, indeed, as June 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:53.240 just said, this bipartisan movement. Um. You know. Mike Lee, 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:57.920 after after the Mr. Sessions is announcement, wrote on Twitter 0:07:58.000 --> 0:07:59.720 to be tough on crime, we have to be smart 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:03.480 on crime. Isn't he going against the green of what? 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.160 You know? It seems to be a consensus of everybody 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:09.800 else thinks. Well, that never did come to a vote. 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.320 And I'm not sure that, say, the Koch Brothers necessarily 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:18.280 represents a or Ran Paul represents a consensus on attitudes 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:22.760 towards criminal justice system in policing UH. You know, I 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:25.400 think the most important voices to listen to are those 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:30.040 in inner cities, people living with the threat of drug violence. 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.160 I've never been to a police community meeting in the 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:38.040 inner city where I do not hear people ask the police, 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:40.680 you get the dealer, you arrest the dealers, They're back 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:42.920 on the corner the next day. Why can't you keep 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:47.120 them off the streets? Prison remains a lifetime achievement award 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:53.280 for persistence in criminal offending, and people that UH are 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:58.560 living with drug violence understand that it is a extraordinary 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:03.640 UH crime on their freedoms and on economic activity. We 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:10.080 hear about the alleged costs of incarceration. They're about forty 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.600 three billion dollars when you take into account actual spending 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:17.920 on institutions as opposed to probation and training. That's a 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:22.280 drop in the bucket compared to what it costs communities 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:29.160 to live with with unimpeded crime and trafficking. Americans spend 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:33.160 seven point four billion on Halloween alone, forty three billion 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.560 dollars to get the most serious offenders off the streets. 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:40.000 For a good period of time is frankly a bargain 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.800 compared to the costs of letting them stay on the streets, 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:48.760 so aims of the former Attorney General, Eric Holder called 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.800 the move unwise and ill informed, and he said that 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:54.960 sessions directive puts the country in danger of repeating an 0:09:54.960 --> 0:09:58.360 all mistake spending one third of its budget on incarcerating 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:03.560 people rather than for ending, detecting or investigating crime. What 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:08.560 about the numbers for incarceration. Do you agree with what 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:11.520 Heather said? Well, I think if you're going to do 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:15.000 a formal, full cost benefit study of the criminal justice system, 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:17.040 the forty three billion would be just a drop in 0:10:17.080 --> 0:10:18.720 the bucket. But it also would be just the very 0:10:18.720 --> 0:10:21.840 beginning of that analysis. You can say it costs, however 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.360 much to incarceory people, but that's not taking into account 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:27.720 the amount of diminished productivity, uh, the amount of the 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.200 problems with wage growth and finding a job that people 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.920 say after they return from prison. Uh. And of course 0:10:33.080 --> 0:10:35.280 those effects apply to everyone who goes to prison, not 0:10:35.400 --> 0:10:38.280 just someone who uh people might say deserve to be 0:10:38.320 --> 0:10:40.640 there for committing a serious drug crime. That would apply 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:44.320 to even someone who commits a very minor federal offense, 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:47.480 which is possessing marijuana, which is still a federal crime. Uh. 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:50.920 Those same people have to go back reintegrate into their communities, 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:54.960 and we should probably count the economic problems they face, 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:57.840 the hurdles they'll face in their professional life in the 0:10:57.880 --> 0:11:00.120 future as part of the full cost benefits study. I 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.160 think when you finally finish that, which would be a 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:05.480 really hard task to do to telly up all the 0:11:05.480 --> 0:11:08.040 individual costs and benefits, I think you'd come to the 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:11.240 conclusion that our current high level of incarceration is not 0:11:11.360 --> 0:11:14.160 costpenct that justified, and that we could find better ways 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.199 to spend that money. At one one point where I 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.040 think miss McDonald and I agree, uh, is that the 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:21.680 more police officers you have on the street, the better. 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:24.480 There's that there's really good evidence for that just be 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:26.960 It's important to note that those police officers should be 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.920 engaging actively with their community, is not necessarily going after 0:11:30.000 --> 0:11:33.600 every single petty offense that they cannet. We are going 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:35.600 to be talking about this for quite some time. I 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.679 believe I want to thank you both for your insights. 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:41.640 That's Ames grow Worth. He's a counsel at the Brennan 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.560 Center for Justice and a former prosecutor, and Heather McDonald. 0:11:44.640 --> 0:11:46.679 She's a fellow at the Manhattan Institute