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Speaker 1: Attorney General Jeff Sessions has rolled back criminal justice sentencing

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Speaker 1: reforms put in place by the Obama administration, paving the

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Speaker 1: way to bring back the War on drugs. In a

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Speaker 1: sentencing memo to federal prosecutors, he instructed them to charge

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Speaker 1: defendants with the most serious offense is possible, most likely

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Speaker 1: to trigger severe mandatory minimum sentences. It means that we're

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Speaker 1: going to meet our responsibility to enforce the law with

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Speaker 1: judgment and fairness. It is simply the right and moral

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Speaker 1: thing to do. The Session sentencing memo is similar to

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Speaker 1: the Ashcroft sentencing memo. Under President George W. Bush, the

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Speaker 1: Obama administration had put in place policies reducing harsh prison

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Speaker 1: sentences for non violent, low level in first time drug offenders,

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Speaker 1: leading to the first decline in the federal prison population

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Speaker 1: in forty years. Joining us are sentencing experts Aimes Grauert,

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Speaker 1: counsel at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Heather McDonald

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Speaker 1: fell at the Manhattan Institute. Ames Session has prom missed

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Speaker 1: law and order agenda since he came to office. He

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Speaker 1: says tough new sentencing policies are necessary to combat what

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Speaker 1: he described as a surge of violent crime in cities.

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Speaker 1: Is there any evidence that strict sentencing accomplishes that? Hi, First,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for having me. And second, no, I

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Speaker 1: don't think there's any evidence that rolling back to these

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Speaker 1: ashcraft air policies will help kind into crime at all.

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Speaker 1: If you look at an analysis, um that, if you

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Speaker 1: look at analysis from people like the Brennan Center and

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Speaker 1: that former Attorney General air Colder himself has put out, UH,

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Speaker 1: there's no sign that cooperation rates for guilty please dropped.

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Speaker 1: There's no sign that the number of prosecutions of relatively

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Speaker 1: high level drug crimes dropped at all thanks to these

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Speaker 1: thanks to his charging policies, I don't think we'll see

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Speaker 1: any safety benefits, but we might see a return to

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Speaker 1: the same over incarceration trend that we've been dealing with

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Speaker 1: for decades. Heather, let me ask you the same question,

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Speaker 1: would is there a justification for this this changed by

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Speaker 1: the Attorney General. Well, for one thing, it's following the law.

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Speaker 1: The Congress and the Sentencing Commission mandated a certain penalty

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Speaker 1: for possession of drugs with intent to distribute UH, and

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Speaker 1: the Holder Memo had instructed prosecutors to conceal the actual

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Speaker 1: amount that a defendant trafficker was caught with from the

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Speaker 1: judge so as not to trigger the mandatory minimum possibility,

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Speaker 1: something that is used by prosecutors in order to plea

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Speaker 1: bargain down a sentence in exchange for cooperation in naming

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Speaker 1: people higher up in a drug drug trafficking organization. So

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Speaker 1: this change simply restores uh congressional intent. If if Congress

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Speaker 1: believes that the mandatory minimum penalties are too severe, it

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Speaker 1: should be up to Congress to change those, not not

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Speaker 1: prosecutors concealing the actual drug amounts that traffickers are caught with.

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Speaker 1: Aims describe what the holder memo did in your opinion, sure,

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Speaker 1: and I just want to push back on the notion

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Speaker 1: that this is somehow violating the law. Sessions clearly believe

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Speaker 1: the same thing. He said Zona four speech in Congress

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. But there's a there's a

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Speaker 1: broader interplay between the sentencing law that Congress passes and

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Speaker 1: the sentencing outcomes that defendant receipt. And that interplay involves

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Speaker 1: another key actor, and that's prosecutors. I was a prosecutor

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Speaker 1: for four years at the state level. UM, we made

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Speaker 1: broad use of our prosecutorial discretion to make sure that

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Speaker 1: the punishments at the crime. Uh, there's there's no law

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Speaker 1: that says prosecutors shouldn't do the exact same thing at

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Speaker 1: the federal level. Well, this was this preserves discretion. It

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Speaker 1: allows prosecutors to, uh, to not charge for the mandatory minimum.

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Speaker 1: It's the facts warranted. But the Holder memo basically instructed

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Speaker 1: prosecutors to conceal from the judge. And I would say

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Speaker 1: that the whole conceit of nonviolent drug traffickers, I think

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Speaker 1: is is fallacious. Uh. This February, eleven year old Tequilla

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Speaker 1: Holmes in Chicago was shot dead in the head with

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Speaker 1: a bullet to the head by a nineteen year old

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Speaker 1: marijuana dealer. James Comey, UH as FBI director, gave an

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Speaker 1: extraordinarily powerful speech in October at the University of Chicago

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Speaker 1: where he described a drug operation in in Arkansas that

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Speaker 1: was greeted by cheers and officers, officers of food, offers

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Speaker 1: of food, and hugs by the predominantly black residents who

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Speaker 1: realized that they were no longer now going to be

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Speaker 1: living under the threat and Paul of violence Aimes. Let's

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Speaker 1: go for a moment with about thirty seconds about into

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Speaker 1: the discretion idea, because Jeff Session says there's discretion, but

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Speaker 1: the prosecutors have to get recommendations of from outside the glands.

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Speaker 1: They have to go to supervisory approval and a documented explanation.

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Speaker 1: It's not just on their own. That's exactly right, And

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Speaker 1: it was the same thing under the Holder Memo that

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Speaker 1: the Holder Memo didn't say, prosecutors, you can charge withever

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Speaker 1: the whatever you want, regardless of approval. It set forth

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Speaker 1: a narrow, narrow number of criteria that had to be

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Speaker 1: satisfied before they reduce a charge and the type of

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Speaker 1: violent crime them. If McDonald's just talking about it wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have qualified for a Holder era departure from the guidelines.

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Speaker 1: Now you're right, Uh, Any departure from the maximum sentence

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Speaker 1: that Congress authorizes in any case has to be cleared

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Speaker 1: with either main Justice or u S Attorney. Since we

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Speaker 1: haven't don't have any HISSE attorneys confirmed by the Senate yet,

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Speaker 1: query how exactly that discretion will be used. We've been

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Speaker 1: talking about Attorney General Jeff's Sessions rolling back criminal justice

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Speaker 1: sentencing reforms and a sentencing memo to federal prosecutors instructing

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Speaker 1: them to charge defendants with the most serious offense is

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Speaker 1: possible most likely to trigger severe mandatory minimum sentences. And

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Speaker 1: our guests are Heather McDonald, she's a fellow at the

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Speaker 1: Manhattan Institute, and Ames Groward, he is a counsel at

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Speaker 1: the Brennan Center for Justice. Aims there was an effort,

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Speaker 1: a bipartisan effort in Congress a few years ago to

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Speaker 1: change the sentencing laws, the bipartisan Criminal Justice legislation, And

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Speaker 1: there are some civil rights advocates, sentencing advocates, some Republicans

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Speaker 1: in Congress who have been pursuing these sentencing reform measures,

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Speaker 1: who have been critical of Session sentencing. For example, Republican

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Speaker 1: Senator Mike Lee tweeted, to be tough on crime, we

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Speaker 1: have to be smart on crime. Tell us about the

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Speaker 1: bipartisan criminal justice legislation and what happened with it. I'm

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Speaker 1: happy too. It's it's actually, it's one of the most

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Speaker 1: heartening things I've seen in DC in a while. I think, uh,

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Speaker 1: you you would, you would think. And there was some

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Speaker 1: fear that this bipartisan amentum we had going into the

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Speaker 1: election would have evaporated during a badly controversial, continuing political season.

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Speaker 1: But on the other hand, exactly like you said, we've

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Speaker 1: heard a lot of support from Mike Lee Rand Paul

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Speaker 1: who spoke to to criticize Attorney General Sessions. Um move

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Speaker 1: uh and and that's a great sign. I'm hoping that

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Speaker 1: we can get the same amentum going that we had

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Speaker 1: last time. Uh. That was the sentenc Perform and Correction deck.

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Speaker 1: As the bill you're describing, it was sponsored by Senators

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Speaker 1: grass Lee and Durban and had a broad range of

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Speaker 1: bipartisan support. One of the very few Republican critics was

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Speaker 1: Jeff Sessions, who just happens to now be the Attorney General.

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Speaker 1: How there isn't Jeff Sessions sort of an outlier on

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Speaker 1: this issue? You know? There there was, indeed, as June

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Speaker 1: just said, this bipartisan movement. Um. You know. Mike Lee,

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Speaker 1: after after the Mr. Sessions is announcement, wrote on Twitter

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Speaker 1: to be tough on crime, we have to be smart

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Speaker 1: on crime. Isn't he going against the green of what?

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Speaker 1: You know? It seems to be a consensus of everybody

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Speaker 1: else thinks. Well, that never did come to a vote.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not sure that, say, the Koch Brothers necessarily

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Speaker 1: represents a or Ran Paul represents a consensus on attitudes

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Speaker 1: towards criminal justice system in policing UH. You know, I

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Speaker 1: think the most important voices to listen to are those

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Speaker 1: in inner cities, people living with the threat of drug violence.

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Speaker 1: I've never been to a police community meeting in the

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Speaker 1: inner city where I do not hear people ask the police,

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Speaker 1: you get the dealer, you arrest the dealers, They're back

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Speaker 1: on the corner the next day. Why can't you keep

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Speaker 1: them off the streets? Prison remains a lifetime achievement award

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Speaker 1: for persistence in criminal offending, and people that UH are

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Speaker 1: living with drug violence understand that it is a extraordinary

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Speaker 1: UH crime on their freedoms and on economic activity. We

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Speaker 1: hear about the alleged costs of incarceration. They're about forty

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Speaker 1: three billion dollars when you take into account actual spending

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Speaker 1: on institutions as opposed to probation and training. That's a

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Speaker 1: drop in the bucket compared to what it costs communities

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Speaker 1: to live with with unimpeded crime and trafficking. Americans spend

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Speaker 1: seven point four billion on Halloween alone, forty three billion

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Speaker 1: dollars to get the most serious offenders off the streets.

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Speaker 1: For a good period of time is frankly a bargain

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Speaker 1: compared to the costs of letting them stay on the streets,

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Speaker 1: so aims of the former Attorney General, Eric Holder called

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Speaker 1: the move unwise and ill informed, and he said that

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Speaker 1: sessions directive puts the country in danger of repeating an

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Speaker 1: all mistake spending one third of its budget on incarcerating

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Speaker 1: people rather than for ending, detecting or investigating crime. What

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Speaker 1: about the numbers for incarceration. Do you agree with what

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Speaker 1: Heather said? Well, I think if you're going to do

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Speaker 1: a formal, full cost benefit study of the criminal justice system,

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Speaker 1: the forty three billion would be just a drop in

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Speaker 1: the bucket. But it also would be just the very

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Speaker 1: beginning of that analysis. You can say it costs, however

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Speaker 1: much to incarceory people, but that's not taking into account

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Speaker 1: the amount of diminished productivity, uh, the amount of the

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Speaker 1: problems with wage growth and finding a job that people

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Speaker 1: say after they return from prison. Uh. And of course

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Speaker 1: those effects apply to everyone who goes to prison, not

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Speaker 1: just someone who uh people might say deserve to be

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Speaker 1: there for committing a serious drug crime. That would apply

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Speaker 1: to even someone who commits a very minor federal offense,

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Speaker 1: which is possessing marijuana, which is still a federal crime. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Those same people have to go back reintegrate into their communities,

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Speaker 1: and we should probably count the economic problems they face,

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Speaker 1: the hurdles they'll face in their professional life in the

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Speaker 1: future as part of the full cost benefits study. I

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Speaker 1: think when you finally finish that, which would be a

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Speaker 1: really hard task to do to telly up all the

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Speaker 1: individual costs and benefits, I think you'd come to the

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Speaker 1: conclusion that our current high level of incarceration is not

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Speaker 1: costpenct that justified, and that we could find better ways

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Speaker 1: to spend that money. At one one point where I

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Speaker 1: think miss McDonald and I agree, uh, is that the

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Speaker 1: more police officers you have on the street, the better.

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Speaker 1: There's that there's really good evidence for that just be

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Speaker 1: It's important to note that those police officers should be

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Speaker 1: engaging actively with their community, is not necessarily going after

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Speaker 1: every single petty offense that they cannet. We are going

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Speaker 1: to be talking about this for quite some time. I

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Speaker 1: believe I want to thank you both for your insights.

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Speaker 1: That's Ames grow Worth. He's a counsel at the Brennan

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Speaker 1: Center for Justice and a former prosecutor, and Heather McDonald.

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Speaker 1: She's a fellow at the Manhattan Institute