WEBVTT - Sonny Rollins 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:23.356 Pushkin. Hey everyone, Today we're continuing our celebration of Black 0:00:23.436 --> 0:00:27.756 Music Month with one of my all time favorites, jazz legend, 0:00:27.956 --> 0:00:33.236 Sonny Rollins. Rollins is dubbed the Saxophone Colossus. He's an 0:00:33.236 --> 0:00:37.116 American tenor and composer who was widely regarded as one 0:00:37.116 --> 0:00:41.556 of the most influential jazz musicians ever, with several awards 0:00:41.596 --> 0:00:44.676 under his belt, a Grammy Award for Lifetime Achievement in 0:00:44.716 --> 0:00:47.516 the National Medal of Arts to name a few. Some 0:00:47.716 --> 0:00:52.516 even venture to call him the greatest living improviser. Sadly, now, 0:00:52.556 --> 0:00:55.516 at ninety one years old, Rollins no longer plays as 0:00:55.516 --> 0:00:58.956 a result of pulmonary fibrosis, but he is able to 0:00:58.996 --> 0:01:01.516 look back at an eight decade career that took him 0:01:01.596 --> 0:01:04.156 all the way from the beginnings of bebop to playing 0:01:04.156 --> 0:01:07.956 with the Rolling Stones and all over the world. On 0:01:07.956 --> 0:01:10.996 today's episode, I spoke to Sonny Rollins by phone about 0:01:11.036 --> 0:01:13.556 one of his first big gigs at eighteen way back 0:01:13.556 --> 0:01:17.276 in nineteen forty nine, playing alongside other jazz icons like 0:01:17.356 --> 0:01:21.156 Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. He also explains why he 0:01:21.196 --> 0:01:24.356 no longer actively listens to music, and for the first 0:01:24.356 --> 0:01:28.596 time ever, how Charlie Parker is the reason he kicked drugs. 0:01:31.836 --> 0:01:34.996 This is broken record Liner notes to the digital age. 0:01:35.276 --> 0:01:39.196 I'm justin Richmond. Here's my phone conversation with the great 0:01:39.596 --> 0:01:42.996 Sonny Rollins. I want to talk about early in your career. 0:01:43.036 --> 0:01:46.236 You're eighteen years old in nineteen forty nine. That was 0:01:46.276 --> 0:01:49.596 your first like professional date, and the first that I 0:01:49.636 --> 0:01:52.956 can figure was with Bab's Gonzalez on Saint Louis Blues. 0:01:53.316 --> 0:01:58.876 That does that seem true? I know that I began 0:01:59.076 --> 0:02:05.956 recording in I've laid forties, so I would imagine that 0:02:06.156 --> 0:02:10.236 it might be true. I turned verifying exactly. Do you 0:02:10.276 --> 0:02:16.676 remember Babs Gonzalez pretty well? Oh? Sure, he's like a character, 0:02:17.596 --> 0:02:20.396 you know, as you Yeah, I remember mans very well. 0:02:21.076 --> 0:02:26.036 mAbs uh like to my playing a lot, and I 0:02:26.116 --> 0:02:31.076 used to make some of these gigs that Drabs Gonzalez 0:02:31.156 --> 0:02:36.036 had Poulain registers in the car and we go down 0:02:36.156 --> 0:02:40.956 to Shilly, or we go up to Boston or Praises 0:02:41.076 --> 0:02:47.396 in the an immediate area, and hey, so I got 0:02:47.396 --> 0:02:51.396 a chance to play with some of my idols. I 0:02:51.436 --> 0:02:54.836 got a chance to pray reflection of Varrow. I want 0:02:54.836 --> 0:02:57.276 to bring that up the same year, when you're still eighteen, 0:02:57.316 --> 0:03:01.676 you got to play on some pretty incredible un Powell records, well, 0:03:02.276 --> 0:03:05.996 Pouncing with Bud, fifty second Street Theme, Dance of the Infidels. 0:03:05.996 --> 0:03:08.756 I mean, just real, real classics. And you're playing on 0:03:08.796 --> 0:03:11.796 there with Fats, with Fats Navarro, the amazing trump of player. 0:03:12.196 --> 0:03:15.556 It's insane. Yeah, I know it really. I mean, I 0:03:15.556 --> 0:03:18.716 guess I had too many dogs in my head to 0:03:18.916 --> 0:03:25.356 we even stop and and realize what I was doing. Yeah, oh, 0:03:25.396 --> 0:03:29.876 but you know, so this is I credit bab and 0:03:29.996 --> 0:03:34.316 Zealous in doing that, with getting me on a lot 0:03:34.316 --> 0:03:40.396 of jobs Fats naval I think, I'm sure I can't 0:03:40.396 --> 0:03:44.436 remember some of me some other the the best players 0:03:44.516 --> 0:03:47.916 around play with some of these Jews, And I was 0:03:47.996 --> 0:03:52.316 a young young chat and my having and that opportunity 0:03:52.716 --> 0:03:57.116 to play with them was tremendous at eighteen playing with 0:03:57.276 --> 0:03:59.396 people like Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. Were you were 0:03:59.436 --> 0:04:06.516 you nervous at all? Well, I was too stupid to 0:04:06.636 --> 0:04:14.596 be nervous that I always fell that if they wanted 0:04:14.716 --> 0:04:17.676 me there, then I'll just you know that I should 0:04:17.716 --> 0:04:21.316 be there. I was. I was never really wanted these guys. 0:04:21.356 --> 0:04:28.196 And was your felt intimidated. Yeah, I just fell well, 0:04:28.236 --> 0:04:30.796 look if they want me to read, then I'm just 0:04:31.036 --> 0:04:34.236 you know, I guess I'm stored to be here. So 0:04:34.276 --> 0:04:36.436 it wasn't Buds. So I went on and did what 0:04:36.676 --> 0:04:42.476 I did. But it was certainly not on the level 0:04:42.556 --> 0:04:45.916 of J. J. Johnson and all of these people that 0:04:46.036 --> 0:04:50.476 I was playing with when I was a teenager, right, 0:04:50.716 --> 0:04:53.516 I mean Roy Haynes, who we thankfully, just like you, 0:04:53.596 --> 0:04:55.636 we still have around these days. He was on those 0:04:55.756 --> 0:04:58.716 Bud Power sessions as well. Um, the drummer Roy Haynes. 0:04:59.196 --> 0:05:01.636 Do you ever have the urge to call someone like 0:05:01.636 --> 0:05:04.356 that these days? And just sort of confirmed that these 0:05:04.356 --> 0:05:10.916 things actually happened. I called Roy up born his birthdays 0:05:11.236 --> 0:05:16.796 and I always called him up and we talk about 0:05:16.836 --> 0:05:20.796 the things that we can both remember. So Roy I know, 0:05:21.436 --> 0:05:24.556 and I know Roy. We know. We were went to 0:05:24.716 --> 0:05:30.716 young kids running to play music. And Roy moved up 0:05:30.956 --> 0:05:36.036 in our neighborhood upon Stigar Hill, the Corvette. We all 0:05:36.116 --> 0:05:38.916 knew him. And then Roy was playing with Lester Young. 0:05:39.396 --> 0:05:41.596 You must have loved Lester. I mean, I can imagine 0:05:41.676 --> 0:05:44.876 Lester must have been an inspiration for you. Lester Young 0:05:45.116 --> 0:05:47.996 was God, you know, and it was so good to 0:05:48.036 --> 0:05:53.436 get to know lest of Young and to know that 0:05:53.756 --> 0:05:57.476 Lester Young like to me because we used to be 0:05:57.636 --> 0:06:04.836 up in Leicester's apartment at the Alvin Hotel up on Broadway, 0:06:04.956 --> 0:06:08.876 and guys would be less, say, look like they were 0:06:09.276 --> 0:06:13.916 if for some guys coming musicians. He would call that 0:06:14.156 --> 0:06:16.356 and say him, I no, say I'm not at home. 0:06:18.276 --> 0:06:21.116 So you know, a lot of people came to see him, 0:06:21.156 --> 0:06:25.596 but hitting the ride everybody. And he liked me. He 0:06:25.716 --> 0:06:28.916 liked me and Matt Roach used to come by there, 0:06:29.756 --> 0:06:36.756 and uh, I got a Gritter friendship with the Great 0:06:36.836 --> 0:06:42.436 Press and that gave me a lot of validation that 0:06:42.756 --> 0:06:47.516 I was doing something right. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm realizing Roy 0:06:47.556 --> 0:06:49.876 has a birthday coming up in a few days here, 0:06:49.876 --> 0:06:52.756 so I guess you'll be probably calling him. Huh oh, yeah, 0:06:52.796 --> 0:06:55.636 I didn't know it's coming up. Yeah, I'll find out 0:06:55.676 --> 0:07:03.556 about it and I will definitely call him definitely. Yeah, yeah, man, 0:07:03.676 --> 0:07:06.396 Roy will be twenty ninety seven. You're ninety one. Now, 0:07:06.516 --> 0:07:09.716 how long ago does an experience like that feeling this point, like, 0:07:09.756 --> 0:07:12.836 does it even feel like it was in the same lifetime? Well, 0:07:13.116 --> 0:07:18.516 yes and no, and uh you know it was no 0:07:19.436 --> 0:07:26.116 in a life That's a tough, tough question, because lifetime means, 0:07:26.636 --> 0:07:30.356 you know, the last week could be a different lifetime 0:07:30.396 --> 0:07:33.916 in a way of speaking. Yeah, sure, in a way 0:07:34.116 --> 0:07:38.476 it's a different way time, yes, but still it was 0:07:38.516 --> 0:07:41.476 a lifetime which I was involved in, so it's not 0:07:41.716 --> 0:07:45.916 that different. But yes, it was different in so many ways, 0:07:46.636 --> 0:07:51.516 different reversions around, different ven years around. You know, it's 0:07:51.516 --> 0:07:57.316 a lifetime is a difficult word since I believe in reincarnation. 0:07:57.916 --> 0:08:02.356 I accept re incarnation. So maybe when you say it 0:08:02.436 --> 0:08:08.196 was a different lifetime, it ends up too many contradictory 0:08:09.316 --> 0:08:12.756 things to be able to answer that precisely. No, I 0:08:12.756 --> 0:08:14.836 see what you mean. I see what you mean. I 0:08:14.876 --> 0:08:17.676 was watching an interview did the other night in nineteen 0:08:17.756 --> 0:08:20.196 sixty two on Ralph Gleason's show that I Used to 0:08:20.236 --> 0:08:24.236 have Jazz Casual. You were the same age during the 0:08:24.276 --> 0:08:26.716 filming of that that I Am. Now you're thirty two, 0:08:27.236 --> 0:08:31.556 and you were referring to yourself as old In that taping, 0:08:32.036 --> 0:08:34.316 you refer to yourself as kind of like an old cat. Now, 0:08:34.876 --> 0:08:39.356 I'm curious what advice you might give yourself at thirty two. Now, 0:08:40.516 --> 0:08:45.756 you know, I've made so many mistakes in life. I've 0:08:45.796 --> 0:08:49.636 done some good things in life. You know, I was learning, 0:08:49.676 --> 0:08:53.476 which I was a learning experience. I think there was 0:08:53.716 --> 0:08:59.396 born a fairly positive person. Used to call me the 0:08:59.596 --> 0:09:03.716 gesture or now you're a little boy so in play. 0:09:03.916 --> 0:09:09.676 So I think I had a positive personality all through 0:09:09.716 --> 0:09:13.276 my life. You know, that's what we think, and that's good. 0:09:13.396 --> 0:09:17.516 But things happened to us. We get tested in life, 0:09:18.676 --> 0:09:22.516 and it's a long trip, you know. And I've known 0:09:22.636 --> 0:09:29.756 so many people that didn't make it all the way 0:09:29.956 --> 0:09:35.556 and ended up in terrible situations. I was talking about 0:09:35.636 --> 0:09:39.476 my friend, he's a great drummer from Chicago named eight 0:09:39.796 --> 0:09:43.036 Day that's play with that Day. When I was in 0:09:43.116 --> 0:09:47.796 Chicago in nineteen forty nine, he was strung out on 0:09:47.996 --> 0:09:52.796 drugs and I was short of strung out on drugs 0:09:53.036 --> 0:09:57.756 entertain So that was a different, different world. But it 0:09:58.276 --> 0:10:02.036 was one of those rivers I had to cross, so 0:10:02.356 --> 0:10:06.436 that it's hard to look back. You know. I made 0:10:06.476 --> 0:10:10.556 a lot of mistakes in life. I did some things 0:10:10.596 --> 0:10:14.356 in life which I like my music. I was already 0:10:14.476 --> 0:10:18.196 trying to get better. But as I said, I was 0:10:18.236 --> 0:10:21.836 a guy that wasn't afraid of trying to do something 0:10:22.356 --> 0:10:27.916 and playing with superior musicians and all of that. No, 0:10:28.076 --> 0:10:30.236 you definitely tray right. You know, I felt that I 0:10:30.316 --> 0:10:33.036 should be there. They wanted me to be there. Yeah, 0:10:33.716 --> 0:10:35.716 we have to learn. We have to try to be 0:10:35.956 --> 0:10:38.476 at the golden rule when all that stuff got to 0:10:38.556 --> 0:10:41.236 try to do it. We don't get it now, we 0:10:41.476 --> 0:10:45.156 have to try to again. Like that said in the 0:10:45.316 --> 0:10:53.636 TV commercial, pay me now or pay me later, I'm 0:10:53.636 --> 0:10:56.836 gonna quote. I'm gonna start quoting that. Yeah, man, you 0:10:56.916 --> 0:11:00.796 gotta get it right. You can't do anything and get 0:11:00.836 --> 0:11:04.236 away with it. You gotta get it right. You don't 0:11:04.276 --> 0:11:06.436 get it right now, you're gonna get happy day it 0:11:06.596 --> 0:11:10.996 right later because you're reap to So. See, some of 0:11:10.996 --> 0:11:16.116 these things are very important to remember that what life 0:11:16.116 --> 0:11:22.076 has survived life is to find out the reason for life? 0:11:22.716 --> 0:11:26.556 What does it mean? And that goes on a non 0:11:26.676 --> 0:11:30.196 man who knows how many lives we have to live 0:11:30.236 --> 0:11:35.036 because a brilliant children who knows. I don't know, but 0:11:35.236 --> 0:11:38.836 I know that you can't get it generally in one lifetime. 0:11:39.996 --> 0:11:43.996 Some people are really advanced that I've read in life. 0:11:44.076 --> 0:11:47.396 I say, wow, their journey. They know a lot more 0:11:47.436 --> 0:11:51.076 than I do than some people. I'm ahead of some 0:11:51.156 --> 0:11:55.316 other people in their journeys. I say, wow, I've learned 0:11:55.356 --> 0:11:59.476 some things this guy hasn't learned. Why this girl hasn't 0:11:59.556 --> 0:12:04.996 learned all of these things? Read something. We're going to 0:12:05.036 --> 0:12:06.996 take a quick break here, but we'll be back with 0:12:07.076 --> 0:12:15.156 more from Sonny Rollins. We're back with more from Sonny Rollins. 0:12:15.876 --> 0:12:18.476 You know, I'm thinking about what you've sewed musically, and 0:12:18.596 --> 0:12:21.636 that certainly is more and more than I think many 0:12:21.716 --> 0:12:25.036 people you know would ever contribute to one lifetime. And 0:12:25.116 --> 0:12:27.596 I was thinking about the year particular, nineteen fifty six 0:12:27.676 --> 0:12:30.836 for you. That year you played a date with Miles 0:12:30.916 --> 0:12:35.076 Davis that included Charlie Parker. Do you remember that date? Oh? Yeah, 0:12:35.316 --> 0:12:40.236 Collectors all Items, Collectors Items exactly. You played Serpent's Tooth. 0:12:40.396 --> 0:12:43.316 Did you interact with Bird much on that session? Well, 0:12:43.476 --> 0:12:48.796 Bird was another one of my rods, so of course 0:12:49.156 --> 0:12:52.356 there was a lot of other things happening on that 0:12:52.476 --> 0:12:58.596 particular session. And well, i'd guess a miners year old 0:12:58.796 --> 0:13:02.756 say it. At that time, I was still on drugs. 0:13:03.756 --> 0:13:06.836 I hadn't seen Charlie Parker in a law so he 0:13:06.996 --> 0:13:10.236 said all he said, So, Sonny said, I told him, 0:13:10.356 --> 0:13:12.436 I think it's a Yeah, how are you doing I 0:13:12.476 --> 0:13:15.916 think he meant that I bet my life together and 0:13:16.116 --> 0:13:20.116 I tell him, oh yeah, yeah, man him, I'm doing good, 0:13:20.356 --> 0:13:25.036 you know, Or so I lied to him. I wasn't 0:13:25.036 --> 0:13:28.596 doing good. And some guys in the band later on 0:13:28.836 --> 0:13:32.916 during the session they read it on me. They said, oh, Man, 0:13:33.036 --> 0:13:36.436 Sunday's Sunday was out getting high with this last night. 0:13:36.996 --> 0:13:41.596 So anywhere later on the session, after he found out 0:13:41.676 --> 0:13:44.996 that I had lied to him, I had noticed something 0:13:45.076 --> 0:13:50.316 in him had destroyed. He was had despondent. He was 0:13:50.836 --> 0:13:54.076 to know that that I had and not missed me. 0:13:54.276 --> 0:13:59.036 Then I realized man Bird was so involved that all 0:13:59.116 --> 0:14:03.996 of the young musicians trying to follow his music in 0:14:04.836 --> 0:14:10.796 his lifestyle. Yeah, I was killing him. Yeah. Knowing that 0:14:11.036 --> 0:14:14.556 all these young guys were using drugs, it wor was 0:14:14.676 --> 0:14:18.476 clilling you? It worse Cloninger and I saw that at 0:14:18.516 --> 0:14:24.716 this session. So you know what I said, Okay, that said, 0:14:25.116 --> 0:14:27.516 I said this to myself, I'm going to get off 0:14:27.516 --> 0:14:32.476 for drugs, and still Charlie Parker that he shouldn't be 0:14:32.596 --> 0:14:39.836 so down because some people are following his positive effect 0:14:39.916 --> 0:14:43.676 on their life, not the negative effect. And that's when 0:14:43.676 --> 0:14:48.196 I made my decision to get off of drugs. Wow, 0:14:48.316 --> 0:14:51.236 I didn't know that. I had no idea. Yeah, well 0:14:51.276 --> 0:14:55.796 that's part of this life that I'm living here, so actualy, 0:14:56.036 --> 0:15:00.836 you know what I got off for drugs. I didn't 0:15:00.836 --> 0:15:02.676 know where they need to know all of that, but 0:15:02.796 --> 0:15:05.996 it wasn't losing. It's very fascinating. Did you ever get 0:15:05.996 --> 0:15:10.196 a chance to tell Charlie Okay? What happened was this? 0:15:11.236 --> 0:15:17.516 There was a drug rehabilitation place in Lexington, Kentucky. It 0:15:17.596 --> 0:15:21.556 was the first place where everyone was like the Betty 0:15:21.636 --> 0:15:25.956 Ford Clinic before the Betty Ford Clinic, and a lot 0:15:25.996 --> 0:15:28.916 of people were there, people that were into drugs and 0:15:29.076 --> 0:15:34.196 movie stars were there. We were treated like patients, not 0:15:34.396 --> 0:15:39.796 as criminals anyway. So I was there for the cure. 0:15:39.996 --> 0:15:44.796 The cure was I've been four months I left Lexington 0:15:44.956 --> 0:15:50.996 and five five fifty five that's when I was discharge 0:15:51.116 --> 0:15:55.516 or whatever we were to call it. But the unfortunate 0:15:56.716 --> 0:16:02.876 maybe so maybe not. Part of it was that Charlie 0:16:02.916 --> 0:16:08.836 Parker passed away one month before I got out of 0:16:09.676 --> 0:16:15.556 lexc Pinkentucky. So I never got the chance to which 0:16:15.596 --> 0:16:19.996 I was waiting to do. Growing up your birth Madam 0:16:20.116 --> 0:16:24.276 straight Charlie or straight man, I would convince him more, 0:16:24.356 --> 0:16:28.076 he would know that I was scientious, because I was 0:16:28.156 --> 0:16:34.316 so ashamed of lying to him earlier on this recognate 0:16:34.436 --> 0:16:37.996 he just recalled. So I was so anxious for this 0:16:38.196 --> 0:16:41.236 to happen. I would be able to see him and 0:16:42.196 --> 0:16:46.316 convince him that I was, that I wasn't going to 0:16:46.356 --> 0:16:53.076 disgrace him anymore. But unfortunately that worth denied me. However, 0:16:54.116 --> 0:16:58.636 I do believe in things like the afterlife and all 0:16:58.676 --> 0:17:05.676 that stuff. I think Charlie Parker knew wherever he was 0:17:05.716 --> 0:17:10.956 at that Oh Sonny got my message. Yeah, no, definitely. 0:17:11.796 --> 0:17:13.516 And you know, really, when you think about it too, 0:17:13.516 --> 0:17:16.836 it's pretty great timing that you got cleaning fifty five, 0:17:16.996 --> 0:17:19.796 because I mean, in fifty six, your career is really insane. 0:17:19.836 --> 0:17:22.956 Your sort, your output I'm thinking about you know, you 0:17:23.036 --> 0:17:27.876 do Saxophone, Colossus tenor Madness, you do Brilliant Corners with 0:17:27.956 --> 0:17:30.796 the Loneus um you do a lot of your work 0:17:30.836 --> 0:17:34.876 with Max Roach and Clifford Brown Quintet. Just really incredible 0:17:34.876 --> 0:17:37.356 stuff is happening. I wanted to ask you that Brilliant 0:17:37.396 --> 0:17:41.476 Corners album with the Loneus Monk. That record really blows 0:17:41.556 --> 0:17:44.716 my mind when I listened to it. It's like spectacularly complex, 0:17:44.836 --> 0:17:47.596 especially that title track. Do you remember was that a 0:17:47.636 --> 0:17:52.636 tough session? A couple of session, the great tough session. 0:17:53.236 --> 0:17:55.836 It was a little different than the meter that Monk 0:17:55.876 --> 0:18:01.516 could play before, as I remember, the tough music, tough music. 0:18:01.796 --> 0:18:05.276 But everybody liked that record a lot. You know, always 0:18:05.356 --> 0:18:11.436 mentioned d when they're talking about months accomplishments. Yeah, did 0:18:11.476 --> 0:18:14.956 you enjoy playing on it? I think so. I think so. 0:18:15.276 --> 0:18:18.716 It was a hard record to make, you know, it 0:18:18.796 --> 0:18:23.756 was hard. Everybody didn't get it the first first door around. 0:18:24.156 --> 0:18:27.596 But yeah, sure I was playing with Mark. Playing with 0:18:27.796 --> 0:18:32.556 Mark was it was a celestial experience, whatever came out 0:18:32.596 --> 0:18:35.996 of it. Yeah, And I had that experience, and everybody 0:18:36.156 --> 0:18:40.076 liked bed record a great deal. I know Ernie Henry 0:18:40.116 --> 0:18:42.356 another tenant player. He ended up leaving I think one 0:18:42.356 --> 0:18:45.036 of the sessions, and then Clark Terry came into sort 0:18:45.036 --> 0:18:48.916 of play. Did you ever feel like leaving? Oh no, no, no, 0:18:49.276 --> 0:18:52.036 maybe if they kicked me out, but I'm not leaving 0:18:52.116 --> 0:18:58.916 on my own, no, noo. They'd have to show me 0:18:59.076 --> 0:19:01.956 the door. There was a lot of great people on 0:19:02.196 --> 0:19:07.276 that record. There was Oscar Pediford was there, Max Rhoades, 0:19:07.476 --> 0:19:13.356 I believe, and played the chilt I forget everywater that 0:19:13.556 --> 0:19:17.436 was on the regular verse. It was great. It was 0:19:17.596 --> 0:19:20.676 a little different than some of the music had done before, 0:19:21.156 --> 0:19:26.276 so it was quite a quite a landmark. Yeah, seen 0:19:26.356 --> 0:19:29.876 something about playing in the Max Roach Clifford Brown quintet 0:19:29.876 --> 0:19:33.316 with with yourself and George Morrow and Richie Powell. It 0:19:33.436 --> 0:19:36.436 sounds to me like you guys had incredible chemistry. Did 0:19:36.436 --> 0:19:38.356 it feel that way to you at the time? Of 0:19:38.396 --> 0:19:41.316 course I had played with Matt some couple times and 0:19:42.036 --> 0:19:48.876 in New York, but when that was the band was 0:19:48.956 --> 0:19:53.516 Clifford and he it was different. Was right now I 0:19:53.596 --> 0:19:57.236 was doing more. I think I played as a sideman 0:19:57.436 --> 0:20:00.356 or something like some retoric Max Roach in New York. 0:20:01.396 --> 0:20:04.236 But when I played with the band, that band, it 0:20:04.316 --> 0:20:07.636 was really I don't know. I'm glad it sounded like 0:20:07.756 --> 0:20:16.476 that because I had a great experience playing with Clifford Brown. 0:20:16.556 --> 0:20:20.676 And Clifford was such a straight a straight up guy, 0:20:20.956 --> 0:20:25.356 was such a straight up player. When the mess players 0:20:25.636 --> 0:20:28.596 as we know. When I look back today and I 0:20:28.716 --> 0:20:32.716 talked to different guys, all these young guys, Clifford Brown 0:20:32.956 --> 0:20:37.036 was her favorite trumpet player, so he was quite a guy. 0:20:37.476 --> 0:20:42.516 But he was also a great person. And I learned 0:20:42.516 --> 0:20:46.276 a lot from Clifford because Clifford was playing all of 0:20:46.316 --> 0:20:49.436 this music, but he was not a guy that was 0:20:49.556 --> 0:20:55.716 missing maryer drugs. He wasn't at Cno. So I said 0:20:55.756 --> 0:20:59.836 to myself, while, man, listen to all this music he 0:20:59.996 --> 0:21:03.676 can play and he's not had nothing to do with 0:21:03.716 --> 0:21:06.796 his personal life. So so you don't have to be 0:21:07.956 --> 0:21:11.876 using drugs or drinking a lot or and even gotten 0:21:11.916 --> 0:21:15.436 bad to play as much music as he did. And 0:21:15.516 --> 0:21:20.076 that was a real expirational to me. And I really 0:21:20.196 --> 0:21:25.276 learned that a Wow, man, if custics could do it, Man, 0:21:25.396 --> 0:21:27.956 all his music he's playing, I can do it. I 0:21:27.996 --> 0:21:31.356 don't need drugs to play. Yeah. So he was a 0:21:31.516 --> 0:21:34.676 grand and we were good friends. I mean, you know, 0:21:34.996 --> 0:21:40.516 I was really close after he passed away. When when 0:21:40.516 --> 0:21:45.316 we were playing in the band and sometimes uh, I'd 0:21:45.396 --> 0:21:51.716 channeled Clifford. I said, Rumford, man, Uh, what what would 0:21:51.956 --> 0:21:54.476 what should we do right here? I mean I talked 0:21:54.436 --> 0:21:58.076 to him like that about the music. Wow, and then 0:21:58.116 --> 0:22:03.076 he'd answer me. And that were known for a while 0:22:04.076 --> 0:22:07.596 before that band broke up. Max got I did trump 0:22:07.636 --> 0:22:11.596 he plays, of course, but that happened for a while 0:22:11.716 --> 0:22:16.756 and then after a while, I had stopped channeling Clifford 0:22:17.596 --> 0:22:22.316 and let him go on on his journey his life Juney, 0:22:22.436 --> 0:22:27.276 but I channeled him for a long time after he passed, 0:22:28.076 --> 0:22:30.836 and then now you know, and we had to play 0:22:30.876 --> 0:22:35.796 the same music, a lot of the same music. We'll 0:22:35.796 --> 0:22:38.516 be right back with more from Sonny Rollins after a 0:22:38.716 --> 0:22:45.356 quick break. We're back with the rest of my conversation 0:22:45.676 --> 0:22:49.116 with Sonny Rollins. Do you remember where you were when 0:22:49.116 --> 0:22:51.716 you when you found out Clifford and Richie Powell passed 0:22:51.716 --> 0:22:58.196 away in the car accident. Well, the brand was in uh, 0:22:58.196 --> 0:23:04.756 Brownie and Richie were in Padelphia where they lived. Richie 0:23:04.836 --> 0:23:08.716 lived in Willow Grove, sort of suburb Brownie was in. 0:23:10.076 --> 0:23:13.516 So we had been on the road to Bendmon Road. 0:23:13.556 --> 0:23:16.236 So we had a low time off before we went. 0:23:16.676 --> 0:23:19.596 I think we were going out to California, but on 0:23:19.716 --> 0:23:23.516 the way we were going to play in Chicago. So anyway, 0:23:24.036 --> 0:23:29.636 the days we had off, Max and myself Canton, New York, 0:23:30.236 --> 0:23:33.636 and George Morrow came to New York. You know. The 0:23:33.756 --> 0:23:42.476 next job was Chicarlo, and we left Chicago traveling right 0:23:42.596 --> 0:23:48.796 car and Brownie and Archie Powell left Philadelphia. Chevron on 0:23:48.876 --> 0:23:54.796 the Pennsylvania turnbike by car Marx say Now and George Margotten. 0:23:55.076 --> 0:23:58.596 We got to Chicago and we you know, waiting around there. 0:23:59.796 --> 0:24:03.556 I remember Miles was playing at the club right down 0:24:03.596 --> 0:24:07.596 the street, when sixty thirty street. So while we were 0:24:07.636 --> 0:24:13.276 waiting for a cliff to arrive in Chicago, we had 0:24:13.356 --> 0:24:17.716 the bad news. It was a soccer I mean we 0:24:17.756 --> 0:24:21.956 were quieting like babies, and it was you know, as 0:24:21.996 --> 0:24:28.556 a branch because everybody loved Brownie. Yeah, I mean Richie too, 0:24:28.876 --> 0:24:34.596 but Brownie was you know, Brownie was Resilion later and 0:24:33.836 --> 0:24:40.556 I had gotten more accolade and the Richie, you know, 0:24:40.676 --> 0:24:43.476 Richie was served. But she was making his name at 0:24:43.516 --> 0:24:45.836 the time. Really, huh, he was making his name and 0:24:45.996 --> 0:24:50.156 the game, yeah, incredible playing Brownie had made his name. Really. 0:24:50.676 --> 0:24:53.516 Did you see Bud Powell in the sort of aftermath 0:24:53.516 --> 0:24:54.756 of that, or ever get a chance to talk with 0:24:54.916 --> 0:24:57.076 Bud Powell, who was Richie Powell's brother. Do you know 0:24:57.076 --> 0:24:59.716 how he took that? I don't know how he took dead? 0:24:59.796 --> 0:25:03.316 No O, God's curious. No, I don't know. Did you 0:25:03.356 --> 0:25:07.796 feel like that band had more yet to do? I 0:25:07.836 --> 0:25:11.036 had been so we I think you didn't know Clifford 0:25:11.076 --> 0:25:14.516 and I used to practice together all the time, and 0:25:15.076 --> 0:25:20.356 besides the gigs, but we were trying to get closer, 0:25:20.996 --> 0:25:26.196 you know, as the musicians playing it a saxophone and trumpet, 0:25:26.236 --> 0:25:29.676 So we were trying to get closer, trying to get 0:25:29.716 --> 0:25:34.716 tighter with our things. We had to play ensemble and everything, 0:25:34.756 --> 0:25:37.556 and I was nowhere in the bands. I was trying 0:25:37.556 --> 0:25:43.076 to learn the book and all this stuff. But besides that, 0:25:43.276 --> 0:25:48.236 there was this resides the repertoire I was playing with 0:25:48.396 --> 0:25:53.876 Clifford that he and I had tried to always get closer. 0:25:54.436 --> 0:25:58.156 So yeah, I think I had a lot to do. Yeah, 0:25:58.316 --> 0:26:00.236 do you think they had anything to do with you 0:26:00.356 --> 0:26:03.116 sort of stripping things back and go into like that 0:26:03.276 --> 0:26:06.076 trio format the next year, just just you on sax 0:26:06.156 --> 0:26:10.876 and then bass and drums that related musically all. I 0:26:10.876 --> 0:26:18.476 don't remember when I did the first trio albums that time. Yeah, 0:26:18.756 --> 0:26:21.196 maybe six months later, eight months later it would have 0:26:21.196 --> 0:26:25.476 been just yeah, Um, I don't know. If no, I 0:26:25.516 --> 0:26:29.716 don't believe so, because I had always I had always 0:26:29.916 --> 0:26:38.556 uh enjoyed the small instrumentation. You know. In fact, when 0:26:38.596 --> 0:26:45.556 I first mad Miles Davis, I was playing trio and 0:26:45.596 --> 0:26:51.636 we were playing opposite Miles, you know, Miles Receivers Stars 0:26:51.676 --> 0:26:54.716 and we were the local band, and I think I 0:26:54.836 --> 0:26:57.876 was playing trio at that time. So no, I think 0:26:58.436 --> 0:27:04.676 I think the trios I did didn't stem from the 0:27:04.756 --> 0:27:09.436 Comfort Brown period. Were you surprised? I will carryous people 0:27:09.436 --> 0:27:11.396 found that idea of you just playing in that small 0:27:11.396 --> 0:27:14.916 trio you based drums like you did on on Way 0:27:14.916 --> 0:27:18.436 Out West or not at the vanguard. I hope that 0:27:18.556 --> 0:27:21.156 it would be received well, well, I think it was. 0:27:21.356 --> 0:27:23.556 I think it absolutely was. I mean, it's it's it's 0:27:23.596 --> 0:27:26.756 it's uh, those seem to have really stood the test 0:27:26.796 --> 0:27:29.396 of time in an incredible way. But it's it's funny 0:27:29.436 --> 0:27:31.876 also just in a way, how curious people find that 0:27:31.956 --> 0:27:33.596 you know that that it's like, oh, whoa, you're you know, 0:27:34.076 --> 0:27:36.916 this is this pianoist trio. You know, it seemed to 0:27:36.956 --> 0:27:41.276 sort of well, I always liked that, and not pay 0:27:41.516 --> 0:27:45.276 was a great piano player. There's no reflection on Planner, 0:27:45.356 --> 0:27:50.036 but I liked the idea of just a rhythm section 0:27:50.956 --> 0:27:55.796 and uh allowed me to sort of be free in 0:27:55.876 --> 0:28:01.676 a completely free just compose things in my own in 0:28:01.836 --> 0:28:07.676 my own mind and create the harmonies and the musical 0:28:07.876 --> 0:28:12.636 situations and just came to me. I had a rhythm 0:28:12.636 --> 0:28:16.196 behind me, had the base, and had the drums to 0:28:16.276 --> 0:28:21.396 keep things moving. Yeah, and I had to feed them 0:28:21.476 --> 0:28:27.236 to conceive of all of these things. So that's why 0:28:27.356 --> 0:28:29.756 I like find like that had nothing to do with 0:28:29.876 --> 0:28:33.276 anything else I got you. There's some wild playing on 0:28:33.316 --> 0:28:37.156 those records from you, and even some incredible you know, 0:28:37.196 --> 0:28:38.876 even from the other cats, you know, like Night at 0:28:38.876 --> 0:28:41.756 the Vanguard. H there's a couple of baseils on that 0:28:42.116 --> 0:28:45.956 record that are great as well. You know. Yeah, I 0:28:46.036 --> 0:28:50.076 tried to get his guys weren't afraid to put it 0:28:50.116 --> 0:28:53.916 without your piano. Yeah, so a lot of guys you know, 0:28:54.076 --> 0:28:57.716 would be retacent to do that rose there, you know, 0:28:57.756 --> 0:29:02.196 because a piano fis right in with the with a 0:29:03.556 --> 0:29:10.356