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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, Today we're continuing our celebration of Black

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Speaker 1: Music Month with one of my all time favorites, jazz legend,

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Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins. Rollins is dubbed the Saxophone Colossus. He's an

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Speaker 1: American tenor and composer who was widely regarded as one

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Speaker 1: of the most influential jazz musicians ever, with several awards

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Speaker 1: under his belt, a Grammy Award for Lifetime Achievement in

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Speaker 1: the National Medal of Arts to name a few. Some

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Speaker 1: even venture to call him the greatest living improviser. Sadly, now,

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Speaker 1: at ninety one years old, Rollins no longer plays as

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Speaker 1: a result of pulmonary fibrosis, but he is able to

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Speaker 1: look back at an eight decade career that took him

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Speaker 1: all the way from the beginnings of bebop to playing

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Speaker 1: with the Rolling Stones and all over the world. On

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Speaker 1: today's episode, I spoke to Sonny Rollins by phone about

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Speaker 1: one of his first big gigs at eighteen way back

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Speaker 1: in nineteen forty nine, playing alongside other jazz icons like

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Speaker 1: Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. He also explains why he

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Speaker 1: no longer actively listens to music, and for the first

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Speaker 1: time ever, how Charlie Parker is the reason he kicked drugs.

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Speaker 1: This is broken record Liner notes to the digital age.

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Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Here's my phone conversation with the great

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Speaker 1: Sonny Rollins. I want to talk about early in your career.

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Speaker 1: You're eighteen years old in nineteen forty nine. That was

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Speaker 1: your first like professional date, and the first that I

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Speaker 1: can figure was with Bab's Gonzalez on Saint Louis Blues.

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Speaker 1: That does that seem true? I know that I began

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Speaker 1: recording in I've laid forties, so I would imagine that

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Speaker 1: it might be true. I turned verifying exactly. Do you

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Speaker 1: remember Babs Gonzalez pretty well? Oh? Sure, he's like a character,

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Speaker 1: you know, as you Yeah, I remember mans very well.

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Speaker 1: mAbs uh like to my playing a lot, and I

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Speaker 1: used to make some of these gigs that Drabs Gonzalez

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Speaker 1: had Poulain registers in the car and we go down

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Speaker 1: to Shilly, or we go up to Boston or Praises

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Speaker 1: in the an immediate area, and hey, so I got

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Speaker 1: a chance to play with some of my idols. I

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Speaker 1: got a chance to pray reflection of Varrow. I want

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Speaker 1: to bring that up the same year, when you're still eighteen,

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Speaker 1: you got to play on some pretty incredible un Powell records, well,

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Speaker 1: Pouncing with Bud, fifty second Street Theme, Dance of the Infidels.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just real, real classics. And you're playing on

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Speaker 1: there with Fats, with Fats Navarro, the amazing trump of player.

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Speaker 1: It's insane. Yeah, I know it really. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: guess I had too many dogs in my head to

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Speaker 1: we even stop and and realize what I was doing. Yeah, oh,

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Speaker 1: but you know, so this is I credit bab and

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Speaker 1: Zealous in doing that, with getting me on a lot

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Speaker 1: of jobs Fats naval I think, I'm sure I can't

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Speaker 1: remember some of me some other the the best players

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Speaker 1: around play with some of these Jews, And I was

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Speaker 1: a young young chat and my having and that opportunity

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Speaker 1: to play with them was tremendous at eighteen playing with

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Speaker 1: people like Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. Were you were

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Speaker 1: you nervous at all? Well, I was too stupid to

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Speaker 1: be nervous that I always fell that if they wanted

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Speaker 1: me there, then I'll just you know that I should

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Speaker 1: be there. I was. I was never really wanted these guys.

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Speaker 1: And was your felt intimidated. Yeah, I just fell well,

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Speaker 1: look if they want me to read, then I'm just

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Speaker 1: you know, I guess I'm stored to be here. So

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Speaker 1: it wasn't Buds. So I went on and did what

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Speaker 1: I did. But it was certainly not on the level

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Speaker 1: of J. J. Johnson and all of these people that

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Speaker 1: I was playing with when I was a teenager, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean Roy Haynes, who we thankfully, just like you,

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Speaker 1: we still have around these days. He was on those

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Speaker 1: Bud Power sessions as well. Um, the drummer Roy Haynes.

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Speaker 1: Do you ever have the urge to call someone like

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Speaker 1: that these days? And just sort of confirmed that these

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Speaker 1: things actually happened. I called Roy up born his birthdays

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Speaker 1: and I always called him up and we talk about

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Speaker 1: the things that we can both remember. So Roy I know,

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Speaker 1: and I know Roy. We know. We were went to

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Speaker 1: young kids running to play music. And Roy moved up

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Speaker 1: in our neighborhood upon Stigar Hill, the Corvette. We all

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Speaker 1: knew him. And then Roy was playing with Lester Young.

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Speaker 1: You must have loved Lester. I mean, I can imagine

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Speaker 1: Lester must have been an inspiration for you. Lester Young

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Speaker 1: was God, you know, and it was so good to

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Speaker 1: get to know lest of Young and to know that

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Speaker 1: Lester Young like to me because we used to be

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Speaker 1: up in Leicester's apartment at the Alvin Hotel up on Broadway,

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Speaker 1: and guys would be less, say, look like they were

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Speaker 1: if for some guys coming musicians. He would call that

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Speaker 1: and say him, I no, say I'm not at home.

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Speaker 1: So you know, a lot of people came to see him,

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Speaker 1: but hitting the ride everybody. And he liked me. He

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Speaker 1: liked me and Matt Roach used to come by there,

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Speaker 1: and uh, I got a Gritter friendship with the Great

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Speaker 1: Press and that gave me a lot of validation that

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Speaker 1: I was doing something right. Yeah. Absolutely. I'm realizing Roy

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Speaker 1: has a birthday coming up in a few days here,

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Speaker 1: so I guess you'll be probably calling him. Huh oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know it's coming up. Yeah, I'll find out

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Speaker 1: about it and I will definitely call him definitely. Yeah, yeah, man,

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Speaker 1: Roy will be twenty ninety seven. You're ninety one. Now,

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Speaker 1: how long ago does an experience like that feeling this point, like,

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Speaker 1: does it even feel like it was in the same lifetime? Well,

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Speaker 1: yes and no, and uh you know it was no

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Speaker 1: in a life That's a tough, tough question, because lifetime means,

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Speaker 1: you know, the last week could be a different lifetime

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Speaker 1: in a way of speaking. Yeah, sure, in a way

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Speaker 1: it's a different way time, yes, but still it was

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Speaker 1: a lifetime which I was involved in, so it's not

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Speaker 1: that different. But yes, it was different in so many ways,

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Speaker 1: different reversions around, different ven years around. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: a lifetime is a difficult word since I believe in reincarnation.

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Speaker 1: I accept re incarnation. So maybe when you say it

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Speaker 1: was a different lifetime, it ends up too many contradictory

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Speaker 1: things to be able to answer that precisely. No, I

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Speaker 1: see what you mean. I see what you mean. I

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Speaker 1: was watching an interview did the other night in nineteen

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Speaker 1: sixty two on Ralph Gleason's show that I Used to

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Speaker 1: have Jazz Casual. You were the same age during the

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Speaker 1: filming of that that I Am. Now you're thirty two,

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Speaker 1: and you were referring to yourself as old In that taping,

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Speaker 1: you refer to yourself as kind of like an old cat. Now,

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Speaker 1: I'm curious what advice you might give yourself at thirty two. Now,

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Speaker 1: you know, I've made so many mistakes in life. I've

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Speaker 1: done some good things in life. You know, I was learning,

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Speaker 1: which I was a learning experience. I think there was

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Speaker 1: born a fairly positive person. Used to call me the

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Speaker 1: gesture or now you're a little boy so in play.

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Speaker 1: So I think I had a positive personality all through

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Speaker 1: my life. You know, that's what we think, and that's good.

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Speaker 1: But things happened to us. We get tested in life,

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Speaker 1: and it's a long trip, you know. And I've known

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Speaker 1: so many people that didn't make it all the way

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Speaker 1: and ended up in terrible situations. I was talking about

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Speaker 1: my friend, he's a great drummer from Chicago named eight

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Speaker 1: Day that's play with that Day. When I was in

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Speaker 1: Chicago in nineteen forty nine, he was strung out on

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Speaker 1: drugs and I was short of strung out on drugs

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Speaker 1: entertain So that was a different, different world. But it

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Speaker 1: was one of those rivers I had to cross, so

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Speaker 1: that it's hard to look back. You know. I made

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Speaker 1: a lot of mistakes in life. I did some things

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Speaker 1: in life which I like my music. I was already

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Speaker 1: trying to get better. But as I said, I was

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Speaker 1: a guy that wasn't afraid of trying to do something

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Speaker 1: and playing with superior musicians and all of that. No,

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Speaker 1: you definitely tray right. You know, I felt that I

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Speaker 1: should be there. They wanted me to be there. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we have to learn. We have to try to be

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Speaker 1: at the golden rule when all that stuff got to

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Speaker 1: try to do it. We don't get it now, we

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Speaker 1: have to try to again. Like that said in the

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Speaker 1: TV commercial, pay me now or pay me later, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna quote. I'm gonna start quoting that. Yeah, man, you

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Speaker 1: gotta get it right. You can't do anything and get

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Speaker 1: away with it. You gotta get it right. You don't

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Speaker 1: get it right now, you're gonna get happy day it

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Speaker 1: right later because you're reap to So. See, some of

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Speaker 1: these things are very important to remember that what life

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Speaker 1: has survived life is to find out the reason for life?

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Speaker 1: What does it mean? And that goes on a non

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Speaker 1: man who knows how many lives we have to live

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Speaker 1: because a brilliant children who knows. I don't know, but

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Speaker 1: I know that you can't get it generally in one lifetime.

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Speaker 1: Some people are really advanced that I've read in life.

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Speaker 1: I say, wow, their journey. They know a lot more

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Speaker 1: than I do than some people. I'm ahead of some

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Speaker 1: other people in their journeys. I say, wow, I've learned

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Speaker 1: some things this guy hasn't learned. Why this girl hasn't

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Speaker 1: learned all of these things? Read something. We're going to

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Speaker 1: take a quick break here, but we'll be back with

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Speaker 1: more from Sonny Rollins. We're back with more from Sonny Rollins.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm thinking about what you've sewed musically, and

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Speaker 1: that certainly is more and more than I think many

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Speaker 1: people you know would ever contribute to one lifetime. And

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about the year particular, nineteen fifty six

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Speaker 1: for you. That year you played a date with Miles

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Speaker 1: Davis that included Charlie Parker. Do you remember that date? Oh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Collectors all Items, Collectors Items exactly. You played Serpent's Tooth.

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Speaker 1: Did you interact with Bird much on that session? Well,

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Speaker 1: Bird was another one of my rods, so of course

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Speaker 1: there was a lot of other things happening on that

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Speaker 1: particular session. And well, i'd guess a miners year old

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Speaker 1: say it. At that time, I was still on drugs.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't seen Charlie Parker in a law so he

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Speaker 1: said all he said, So, Sonny said, I told him,

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Speaker 1: I think it's a Yeah, how are you doing I

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Speaker 1: think he meant that I bet my life together and

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Speaker 1: I tell him, oh yeah, yeah, man him, I'm doing good,

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Speaker 1: you know, Or so I lied to him. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: doing good. And some guys in the band later on

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Speaker 1: during the session they read it on me. They said, oh, Man,

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Speaker 1: Sunday's Sunday was out getting high with this last night.

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Speaker 1: So anywhere later on the session, after he found out

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Speaker 1: that I had lied to him, I had noticed something

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Speaker 1: in him had destroyed. He was had despondent. He was

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Speaker 1: to know that that I had and not missed me.

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Speaker 1: Then I realized man Bird was so involved that all

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Speaker 1: of the young musicians trying to follow his music in

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Speaker 1: his lifestyle. Yeah, I was killing him. Yeah. Knowing that

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Speaker 1: all these young guys were using drugs, it wor was

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Speaker 1: clilling you? It worse Cloninger and I saw that at

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Speaker 1: this session. So you know what I said, Okay, that said,

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Speaker 1: I said this to myself, I'm going to get off

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Speaker 1: for drugs, and still Charlie Parker that he shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: so down because some people are following his positive effect

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Speaker 1: on their life, not the negative effect. And that's when

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Speaker 1: I made my decision to get off of drugs. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I didn't know that. I had no idea. Yeah, well

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Speaker 1: that's part of this life that I'm living here, so actualy,

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Speaker 1: you know what I got off for drugs. I didn't

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Speaker 1: know where they need to know all of that, but

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Speaker 1: it wasn't losing. It's very fascinating. Did you ever get

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Speaker 1: a chance to tell Charlie Okay? What happened was this?

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Speaker 1: There was a drug rehabilitation place in Lexington, Kentucky. It

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Speaker 1: was the first place where everyone was like the Betty

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Speaker 1: Ford Clinic before the Betty Ford Clinic, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of people were there, people that were into drugs and

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Speaker 1: movie stars were there. We were treated like patients, not

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Speaker 1: as criminals anyway. So I was there for the cure.

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Speaker 1: The cure was I've been four months I left Lexington

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Speaker 1: and five five fifty five that's when I was discharge

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Speaker 1: or whatever we were to call it. But the unfortunate

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Speaker 1: maybe so maybe not. Part of it was that Charlie

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Speaker 1: Parker passed away one month before I got out of

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Speaker 1: lexc Pinkentucky. So I never got the chance to which

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Speaker 1: I was waiting to do. Growing up your birth Madam

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Speaker 1: straight Charlie or straight man, I would convince him more,

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Speaker 1: he would know that I was scientious, because I was

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Speaker 1: so ashamed of lying to him earlier on this recognate

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Speaker 1: he just recalled. So I was so anxious for this

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Speaker 1: to happen. I would be able to see him and

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Speaker 1: convince him that I was, that I wasn't going to

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Speaker 1: disgrace him anymore. But unfortunately that worth denied me. However,

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Speaker 1: I do believe in things like the afterlife and all

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Speaker 1: that stuff. I think Charlie Parker knew wherever he was

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Speaker 1: at that Oh Sonny got my message. Yeah, no, definitely.

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Speaker 1: And you know, really, when you think about it too,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty great timing that you got cleaning fifty five,

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Speaker 1: because I mean, in fifty six, your career is really insane.

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Speaker 1: Your sort, your output I'm thinking about you know, you

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Speaker 1: do Saxophone, Colossus tenor Madness, you do Brilliant Corners with

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Speaker 1: the Loneus um you do a lot of your work

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Speaker 1: with Max Roach and Clifford Brown Quintet. Just really incredible

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Speaker 1: stuff is happening. I wanted to ask you that Brilliant

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Speaker 1: Corners album with the Loneus Monk. That record really blows

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Speaker 1: my mind when I listened to it. It's like spectacularly complex,

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Speaker 1: especially that title track. Do you remember was that a

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Speaker 1: tough session? A couple of session, the great tough session.

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Speaker 1: It was a little different than the meter that Monk

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Speaker 1: could play before, as I remember, the tough music, tough music.

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Speaker 1: But everybody liked that record a lot. You know, always

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Speaker 1: mentioned d when they're talking about months accomplishments. Yeah, did

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Speaker 1: you enjoy playing on it? I think so. I think so.

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Speaker 1: It was a hard record to make, you know, it

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Speaker 1: was hard. Everybody didn't get it the first first door around.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, sure I was playing with Mark. Playing with

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Speaker 1: Mark was it was a celestial experience, whatever came out

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Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, And I had that experience, and everybody

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Speaker 1: liked bed record a great deal. I know Ernie Henry

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Speaker 1: another tenant player. He ended up leaving I think one

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Speaker 1: of the sessions, and then Clark Terry came into sort

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Speaker 1: of play. Did you ever feel like leaving? Oh no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: maybe if they kicked me out, but I'm not leaving

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Speaker 1: on my own, no, noo. They'd have to show me

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Speaker 1: the door. There was a lot of great people on

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Speaker 1: that record. There was Oscar Pediford was there, Max Rhoades,

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Speaker 1: I believe, and played the chilt I forget everywater that

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Speaker 1: was on the regular verse. It was great. It was

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Speaker 1: a little different than some of the music had done before,

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Speaker 1: so it was quite a quite a landmark. Yeah, seen

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Speaker 1: something about playing in the Max Roach Clifford Brown quintet

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Speaker 1: with with yourself and George Morrow and Richie Powell. It

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Speaker 1: sounds to me like you guys had incredible chemistry. Did

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Speaker 1: it feel that way to you at the time? Of

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Speaker 1: course I had played with Matt some couple times and

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Speaker 1: in New York, but when that was the band was

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Speaker 1: Clifford and he it was different. Was right now I

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Speaker 1: was doing more. I think I played as a sideman

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Speaker 1: or something like some retoric Max Roach in New York.

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Speaker 1: But when I played with the band, that band, it

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Speaker 1: was really I don't know. I'm glad it sounded like

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Speaker 1: that because I had a great experience playing with Clifford Brown.

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Speaker 1: And Clifford was such a straight a straight up guy,

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Speaker 1: was such a straight up player. When the mess players

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Speaker 1: as we know. When I look back today and I

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Speaker 1: talked to different guys, all these young guys, Clifford Brown

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Speaker 1: was her favorite trumpet player, so he was quite a guy.

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Speaker 1: But he was also a great person. And I learned

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Speaker 1: a lot from Clifford because Clifford was playing all of

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Speaker 1: this music, but he was not a guy that was

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Speaker 1: missing maryer drugs. He wasn't at Cno. So I said

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Speaker 1: to myself, while, man, listen to all this music he

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Speaker 1: can play and he's not had nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: his personal life. So so you don't have to be

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00:21:07,956 --> 00:21:11,876
Speaker 1: using drugs or drinking a lot or and even gotten

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Speaker 1: bad to play as much music as he did. And

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Speaker 1: that was a real expirational to me. And I really

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Speaker 1: learned that a Wow, man, if custics could do it, Man,

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00:21:25,396 --> 00:21:27,956
Speaker 1: all his music he's playing, I can do it. I

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Speaker 1: don't need drugs to play. Yeah. So he was a

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Speaker 1: grand and we were good friends. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: I was really close after he passed away. When when

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Speaker 1: we were playing in the band and sometimes uh, I'd

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Speaker 1: channeled Clifford. I said, Rumford, man, Uh, what what would

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00:21:51,956 --> 00:21:54,476
Speaker 1: what should we do right here? I mean I talked

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Speaker 1: to him like that about the music. Wow, and then

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00:21:58,116 --> 00:22:03,076
Speaker 1: he'd answer me. And that were known for a while

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Speaker 1: before that band broke up. Max got I did trump

305
00:22:07,636 --> 00:22:11,596
Speaker 1: he plays, of course, but that happened for a while

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Speaker 1: and then after a while, I had stopped channeling Clifford

307
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Speaker 1: and let him go on on his journey his life Juney,

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Speaker 1: but I channeled him for a long time after he passed,

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Speaker 1: and then now you know, and we had to play

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Speaker 1: the same music, a lot of the same music. We'll

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Speaker 1: be right back with more from Sonny Rollins after a

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Speaker 1: quick break. We're back with the rest of my conversation

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Speaker 1: with Sonny Rollins. Do you remember where you were when

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Speaker 1: you when you found out Clifford and Richie Powell passed

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Speaker 1: away in the car accident. Well, the brand was in uh,

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00:22:58,196 --> 00:23:04,756
Speaker 1: Brownie and Richie were in Padelphia where they lived. Richie

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00:23:04,836 --> 00:23:08,716
Speaker 1: lived in Willow Grove, sort of suburb Brownie was in.

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Speaker 1: So we had been on the road to Bendmon Road.

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Speaker 1: So we had a low time off before we went.

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Speaker 1: I think we were going out to California, but on

321
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Speaker 1: the way we were going to play in Chicago. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: the days we had off, Max and myself Canton, New York,

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Speaker 1: and George Morrow came to New York. You know. The

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Speaker 1: next job was Chicarlo, and we left Chicago traveling right

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Speaker 1: car and Brownie and Archie Powell left Philadelphia. Chevron on

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Speaker 1: the Pennsylvania turnbike by car Marx say Now and George Margotten.

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Speaker 1: We got to Chicago and we you know, waiting around there.

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Speaker 1: I remember Miles was playing at the club right down

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Speaker 1: the street, when sixty thirty street. So while we were

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Speaker 1: waiting for a cliff to arrive in Chicago, we had

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00:24:13,356 --> 00:24:17,716
Speaker 1: the bad news. It was a soccer I mean we

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00:24:17,756 --> 00:24:21,956
Speaker 1: were quieting like babies, and it was you know, as

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Speaker 1: a branch because everybody loved Brownie. Yeah, I mean Richie too,

334
00:24:28,876 --> 00:24:34,596
Speaker 1: but Brownie was you know, Brownie was Resilion later and

335
00:24:33,836 --> 00:24:40,556
Speaker 1: I had gotten more accolade and the Richie, you know,

336
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Speaker 1: Richie was served. But she was making his name at

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Speaker 1: the time. Really, huh, he was making his name and

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Speaker 1: the game, yeah, incredible playing Brownie had made his name. Really.

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Speaker 1: Did you see Bud Powell in the sort of aftermath

340
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Speaker 1: of that, or ever get a chance to talk with

341
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Speaker 1: Bud Powell, who was Richie Powell's brother. Do you know

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Speaker 1: how he took that? I don't know how he took dead?

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Speaker 1: No O, God's curious. No, I don't know. Did you

344
00:25:03,356 --> 00:25:07,796
Speaker 1: feel like that band had more yet to do? I

345
00:25:07,836 --> 00:25:11,036
Speaker 1: had been so we I think you didn't know Clifford

346
00:25:11,076 --> 00:25:14,516
Speaker 1: and I used to practice together all the time, and

347
00:25:15,076 --> 00:25:20,356
Speaker 1: besides the gigs, but we were trying to get closer,

348
00:25:20,996 --> 00:25:26,196
Speaker 1: you know, as the musicians playing it a saxophone and trumpet,

349
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Speaker 1: So we were trying to get closer, trying to get

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Speaker 1: tighter with our things. We had to play ensemble and everything,

351
00:25:34,756 --> 00:25:37,556
Speaker 1: and I was nowhere in the bands. I was trying

352
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Speaker 1: to learn the book and all this stuff. But besides that,

353
00:25:43,276 --> 00:25:48,236
Speaker 1: there was this resides the repertoire I was playing with

354
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Speaker 1: Clifford that he and I had tried to always get closer.

355
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Speaker 1: So yeah, I think I had a lot to do. Yeah,

356
00:25:58,316 --> 00:26:00,236
Speaker 1: do you think they had anything to do with you

357
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Speaker 1: sort of stripping things back and go into like that

358
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Speaker 1: trio format the next year, just just you on sax

359
00:26:06,156 --> 00:26:10,876
Speaker 1: and then bass and drums that related musically all. I

360
00:26:10,876 --> 00:26:18,476
Speaker 1: don't remember when I did the first trio albums that time. Yeah,

361
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Speaker 1: maybe six months later, eight months later it would have

362
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Speaker 1: been just yeah, Um, I don't know. If no, I

363
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Speaker 1: don't believe so, because I had always I had always

364
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Speaker 1: uh enjoyed the small instrumentation. You know. In fact, when

365
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Speaker 1: I first mad Miles Davis, I was playing trio and

366
00:26:45,596 --> 00:26:51,636
Speaker 1: we were playing opposite Miles, you know, Miles Receivers Stars

367
00:26:51,676 --> 00:26:54,716
Speaker 1: and we were the local band, and I think I

368
00:26:54,836 --> 00:26:57,876
Speaker 1: was playing trio at that time. So no, I think

369
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Speaker 1: I think the trios I did didn't stem from the

370
00:27:04,756 --> 00:27:09,436
Speaker 1: Comfort Brown period. Were you surprised? I will carryous people

371
00:27:09,436 --> 00:27:11,396
Speaker 1: found that idea of you just playing in that small

372
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Speaker 1: trio you based drums like you did on on Way

373
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Speaker 1: Out West or not at the vanguard. I hope that

374
00:27:18,556 --> 00:27:21,156
Speaker 1: it would be received well, well, I think it was.

375
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Speaker 1: I think it absolutely was. I mean, it's it's it's

376
00:27:23,596 --> 00:27:26,756
Speaker 1: it's uh, those seem to have really stood the test

377
00:27:26,796 --> 00:27:29,396
Speaker 1: of time in an incredible way. But it's it's funny

378
00:27:29,436 --> 00:27:31,876
Speaker 1: also just in a way, how curious people find that

379
00:27:31,956 --> 00:27:33,596
Speaker 1: you know that that it's like, oh, whoa, you're you know,

380
00:27:34,076 --> 00:27:36,916
Speaker 1: this is this pianoist trio. You know, it seemed to

381
00:27:36,956 --> 00:27:41,276
Speaker 1: sort of well, I always liked that, and not pay

382
00:27:41,516 --> 00:27:45,276
Speaker 1: was a great piano player. There's no reflection on Planner,

383
00:27:45,356 --> 00:27:50,036
Speaker 1: but I liked the idea of just a rhythm section

384
00:27:50,956 --> 00:27:55,796
Speaker 1: and uh allowed me to sort of be free in

385
00:27:55,876 --> 00:28:01,676
Speaker 1: a completely free just compose things in my own in

386
00:28:01,836 --> 00:28:07,676
Speaker 1: my own mind and create the harmonies and the musical

387
00:28:07,876 --> 00:28:12,636
Speaker 1: situations and just came to me. I had a rhythm

388
00:28:12,636 --> 00:28:16,196
Speaker 1: behind me, had the base, and had the drums to

389
00:28:16,276 --> 00:28:21,396
Speaker 1: keep things moving. Yeah, and I had to feed them

390
00:28:21,476 --> 00:28:27,236
Speaker 1: to conceive of all of these things. So that's why

391
00:28:27,356 --> 00:28:29,756
Speaker 1: I like find like that had nothing to do with

392
00:28:29,876 --> 00:28:33,276
Speaker 1: anything else I got you. There's some wild playing on

393
00:28:33,316 --> 00:28:37,156
Speaker 1: those records from you, and even some incredible you know,

394
00:28:37,196 --> 00:28:38,876
Speaker 1: even from the other cats, you know, like Night at

395
00:28:38,876 --> 00:28:41,756
Speaker 1: the Vanguard. H there's a couple of baseils on that

396
00:28:42,116 --> 00:28:45,956
Speaker 1: record that are great as well. You know. Yeah, I

397
00:28:46,036 --> 00:28:50,076
Speaker 1: tried to get his guys weren't afraid to put it

398
00:28:50,116 --> 00:28:53,916
Speaker 1: without your piano. Yeah, so a lot of guys you know,

399
00:28:54,076 --> 00:28:57,716
Speaker 1: would be retacent to do that rose there, you know,

400
00:28:57,756 --> 00:29:02,196
Speaker 1: because a piano fis right in with the with a

401
00:29:03,556 --> 00:29:10,356
Speaker 1: with a base, you know, like a hammer and egg. Yeah, yeah,

402
00:29:10,476 --> 00:29:13,756
Speaker 1: yeah there, I mean, yes, so wow, the piano and

403
00:29:14,076 --> 00:29:20,316
Speaker 1: jumps here, base here stayen years old. You know, those

404
00:29:20,356 --> 00:29:23,636
Speaker 1: guys can wake up in the middle of the unit

405
00:29:23,756 --> 00:29:27,596
Speaker 1: and throw him and dates be right and tune for

406
00:29:27,676 --> 00:29:31,076
Speaker 1: the next note. So it was something which you know,

407
00:29:31,356 --> 00:29:36,636
Speaker 1: you're were somewhat of a challenge to them. Yeah, it

408
00:29:36,756 --> 00:29:41,156
Speaker 1: was wilbur aware by the way, wild beware wilboware We

409
00:29:41,276 --> 00:29:43,836
Speaker 1: used to have a joker about Robo. We used to

410
00:29:43,836 --> 00:29:53,396
Speaker 1: call him wilbur being aware. That's great. Alvin Jones also

411
00:29:53,436 --> 00:29:57,556
Speaker 1: on drums on that, just Sovie Alvin Jones yea incredible,

412
00:29:57,596 --> 00:30:01,516
Speaker 1: incredible trio man Man Man. I had some other guys

413
00:30:01,596 --> 00:30:04,756
Speaker 1: on that. On other parts of the record, I added

414
00:30:05,556 --> 00:30:11,476
Speaker 1: Peter Looker and another guys from Donald Bailey Baltimore. Donald

415
00:30:11,476 --> 00:30:14,036
Speaker 1: Who is Donald Bailey's I can't figure out who this

416
00:30:14,076 --> 00:30:17,196
Speaker 1: Donald Bailey bass player? I know there's a drummer Donald Bailey, right,

417
00:30:17,396 --> 00:30:19,516
Speaker 1: But there's a drummer Donald Bailey. But is there also?

418
00:30:19,836 --> 00:30:22,716
Speaker 1: But I can't find anything out about a bass player.

419
00:30:22,716 --> 00:30:25,636
Speaker 1: Donald Bailey was I know, I know he was very

420
00:30:26,316 --> 00:30:30,956
Speaker 1: under Uh that's it full for musician. Nobody know much

421
00:30:30,996 --> 00:30:34,116
Speaker 1: about him. How did you know him? My good friend

422
00:30:34,196 --> 00:30:39,356
Speaker 1: went to school then there at uh, I've watched college.

423
00:30:40,196 --> 00:30:43,396
Speaker 1: I forget what it was it because you have to

424
00:30:43,436 --> 00:30:47,836
Speaker 1: forgive me. You know, there's when again at a certain age,

425
00:30:47,916 --> 00:30:52,396
Speaker 1: you're your your your memory, you know your short term

426
00:30:52,476 --> 00:30:59,996
Speaker 1: memory goals. You know it's like ten minutes from now,

427
00:31:00,076 --> 00:31:07,116
Speaker 1: but I need it now. But anyway, No, he's here.

428
00:31:07,356 --> 00:31:12,436
Speaker 1: He was very but he was known in the area,

429
00:31:12,996 --> 00:31:15,516
Speaker 1: you know, and he's a good player. You know, he

430
00:31:15,596 --> 00:31:18,396
Speaker 1: played good. I liked him on those things. I always

431
00:31:18,396 --> 00:31:20,556
Speaker 1: thought maybe was someone that like just couldn't say, like

432
00:31:20,596 --> 00:31:23,316
Speaker 1: you couldn't say who it was for some contractual reason

433
00:31:23,396 --> 00:31:26,556
Speaker 1: or something, because I was like, who, Yeah, I can't

434
00:31:26,596 --> 00:31:30,236
Speaker 1: but know who this guy is. No, don't really and

435
00:31:30,436 --> 00:31:35,196
Speaker 1: uh unfortunately he passed not too long after those records

436
00:31:35,236 --> 00:31:39,036
Speaker 1: came out. But they did a great their great job

437
00:31:39,196 --> 00:31:43,596
Speaker 1: over accompanying me on that. Yeah. Absolutely did the record

438
00:31:43,636 --> 00:31:45,996
Speaker 1: Sunny Side Up that you did with Dizzy Gillespie and

439
00:31:46,036 --> 00:31:49,916
Speaker 1: Sonny Stitt fifty nine. Oh yeah, how did that come together? Well,

440
00:31:49,956 --> 00:31:54,476
Speaker 1: that came together to Norman Grange. Of course, did you

441
00:31:54,636 --> 00:31:58,156
Speaker 1: know who Norman Granges? He did jazz at the Philharmonic, right,

442
00:31:58,156 --> 00:32:04,796
Speaker 1: You put on all those shows a year promoting jazz. Yeah,

443
00:32:04,916 --> 00:32:09,316
Speaker 1: he did a lot of promotion of different people. And

444
00:32:09,836 --> 00:32:14,276
Speaker 1: his crowned seatment was jadged the Pharmonic. But he was

445
00:32:14,316 --> 00:32:20,516
Speaker 1: a big time or jazz promotor. He ain't replaying someplace. See.

446
00:32:20,556 --> 00:32:23,756
Speaker 1: He got to be a big fan of mine and

447
00:32:23,796 --> 00:32:28,196
Speaker 1: then he was his date. I mean he arranged your

448
00:32:28,316 --> 00:32:33,116
Speaker 1: date that so it turned out to be sunny and

449
00:32:33,276 --> 00:32:37,156
Speaker 1: Sunny and Dizzy. Yeah. Were you friendly with Dizzey at

450
00:32:37,156 --> 00:32:39,596
Speaker 1: that time or did you know him decently well or

451
00:32:39,676 --> 00:32:43,276
Speaker 1: at all? Yeah, I was funded with Desy. You know,

452
00:32:43,316 --> 00:32:45,596
Speaker 1: if you know Dozey at all, you've got to be

453
00:32:45,716 --> 00:32:51,956
Speaker 1: friendly with him. That type for guy, he's going to mean,

454
00:32:51,996 --> 00:32:57,596
Speaker 1: he's always going to be something light and amusing that

455
00:32:58,076 --> 00:33:02,876
Speaker 1: uh becomes part of the conversation. And you know, Dozy

456
00:33:03,036 --> 00:33:07,876
Speaker 1: was a wonderful guy. Dizzey was a guy that always

457
00:33:08,196 --> 00:33:12,436
Speaker 1: was teaching people's stuff. You know, he don't real young

458
00:33:12,796 --> 00:33:17,076
Speaker 1: users should be run and he's coming and you know

459
00:33:17,156 --> 00:33:20,236
Speaker 1: that they showed to get it on the piano and

460
00:33:20,396 --> 00:33:25,156
Speaker 1: show the piano playing some chords and sense chords, you know,

461
00:33:25,276 --> 00:33:29,876
Speaker 1: stuff like that. He was a great natural teacher. I mean,

462
00:33:29,956 --> 00:33:33,556
Speaker 1: not that, I mean he wasn't trying to diminish again

463
00:33:33,796 --> 00:33:37,116
Speaker 1: not I didn't ring like that. I mean we were

464
00:33:37,196 --> 00:33:41,596
Speaker 1: happy to have Dizzy Gilaspie there. That that was said.

465
00:33:41,676 --> 00:33:45,876
Speaker 1: He won't he wanted to h to to teach, you know,

466
00:33:47,036 --> 00:33:50,156
Speaker 1: not to despatch the other guy at all, not in

467
00:33:50,276 --> 00:33:54,316
Speaker 1: that sense in the least. Yeah, if everybody was listening

468
00:33:54,356 --> 00:33:57,276
Speaker 1: to what he was doing, saying and playing that record

469
00:33:57,276 --> 00:34:00,036
Speaker 1: Sunny Side Up was kind of an anomaly. I feel like, uh,

470
00:34:00,156 --> 00:34:02,196
Speaker 1: in your catalog at least, you know, at the time,

471
00:34:02,196 --> 00:34:04,716
Speaker 1: it felt maybe much more like a dizzy record than

472
00:34:04,756 --> 00:34:07,756
Speaker 1: any anything else, which I think is probably only natural.

473
00:34:08,436 --> 00:34:11,596
Speaker 1: I think it's a dizzy record. Zard. Yeah, I mean

474
00:34:11,636 --> 00:34:13,276
Speaker 1: it's kind of like the three of you guys. I mean,

475
00:34:13,356 --> 00:34:18,076
Speaker 1: you know it's it's named Sunny seven. It was Busy Gillespie,

476
00:34:18,676 --> 00:34:22,076
Speaker 1: it was his session. I mean yeah, yeah, no, no, no,

477
00:34:22,116 --> 00:34:25,436
Speaker 1: that's fair, that's fair. That's such a cool record. Yeah,

478
00:34:25,676 --> 00:34:32,236
Speaker 1: some people liked to lot. Some people, uh musicians, Uh

479
00:34:32,356 --> 00:34:37,356
Speaker 1: really thought that that was one of my best records. Yeah,

480
00:34:37,396 --> 00:34:39,356
Speaker 1: well you know what, you recorded that fifty seven, but

481
00:34:39,396 --> 00:34:43,276
Speaker 1: it comes out fifty nine. The next year, nineteen sixty,

482
00:34:43,756 --> 00:34:46,956
Speaker 1: Lee Morgan quoted you on a Jazz Messengers record he

483
00:34:46,996 --> 00:34:51,316
Speaker 1: did your little band down. Uh just they're just this

484
00:34:51,596 --> 00:34:55,636
Speaker 1: little phrase that you do. Oh really and yeah, and

485
00:34:55,636 --> 00:34:57,876
Speaker 1: in League quoted you on this song called the Opener

486
00:34:57,956 --> 00:35:01,276
Speaker 1: on a Jazz Messengers record just the next year. It's good. Yeah,

487
00:35:01,276 --> 00:35:05,716
Speaker 1: I know. Layers a great player. Yeah, leaders should come

488
00:35:05,756 --> 00:35:09,716
Speaker 1: whenever he was playing with Match and Comfortence some Aladelphia

489
00:35:10,956 --> 00:35:14,476
Speaker 1: at a club there Lee would come by, you know,

490
00:35:15,076 --> 00:35:18,436
Speaker 1: to have Cliffin. It means that's another guy, I mean,

491
00:35:18,516 --> 00:35:23,276
Speaker 1: the young guy. They all love Cliffic so much. So anyway,

492
00:35:23,356 --> 00:35:26,356
Speaker 1: that's when they meant to me. And uh, he used

493
00:35:26,396 --> 00:35:31,276
Speaker 1: to play outside the cover with his uh mouthpiece alone.

494
00:35:31,796 --> 00:35:33,996
Speaker 1: He would show me what he could do just playing

495
00:35:34,036 --> 00:35:37,876
Speaker 1: his mouthpiece. In those who I'd say, they say, hey, man,

496
00:35:37,956 --> 00:35:43,836
Speaker 1: that's good there Lee Morgan. I mean, but he's great. Man,

497
00:35:43,916 --> 00:35:46,876
Speaker 1: he's a great player. You never got to play with him,

498
00:35:46,876 --> 00:35:50,876
Speaker 1: did you. I don't think so. I don't think so. No.

499
00:35:50,996 --> 00:35:54,996
Speaker 1: I think that's one one of the trumble players that

500
00:35:55,076 --> 00:35:59,436
Speaker 1: I missed. Would have been great to hear you guys together. Man. Yeah,

501
00:35:59,436 --> 00:36:02,476
Speaker 1: I wonder Roddson must have been a Yeah, I'm sure.

502
00:36:03,636 --> 00:36:10,116
Speaker 1: I'm sure I would have been uh inspired. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

503
00:36:10,196 --> 00:36:12,716
Speaker 1: I'm curious as anyone you admire outside of jazz in

504
00:36:12,796 --> 00:36:17,476
Speaker 1: terms of musically, Oh yeah, I admire all of the

505
00:36:17,596 --> 00:36:23,236
Speaker 1: great musicians from their centuries. I like Jay as Mac,

506
00:36:23,676 --> 00:36:33,156
Speaker 1: I like uh Brahms, Oh, David Cravell, I like Fat Swaer, Louis,

507
00:36:33,316 --> 00:36:37,516
Speaker 1: Joard new kors Man, Luis I'm my favorite year and Alls.

508
00:36:37,716 --> 00:36:42,036
Speaker 1: I like everybody. Yeah, I appreciate all Kashian music. Do

509
00:36:42,116 --> 00:36:46,716
Speaker 1: you listen to music at all? Still? These days? It's yours? Three?

510
00:36:47,516 --> 00:36:48,796
Speaker 1: What do you? What do you listen to? What do

511
00:36:48,796 --> 00:36:52,156
Speaker 1: you enjoy listening to? Now? I never listen to too

512
00:36:52,236 --> 00:36:57,636
Speaker 1: much music. It's usage. I have listened to so much

513
00:36:57,916 --> 00:37:02,596
Speaker 1: music in my life. I still think music all the time.

514
00:37:02,796 --> 00:37:06,476
Speaker 1: I'm still playing my horn, even though I can't play

515
00:37:06,596 --> 00:37:10,876
Speaker 1: my horn anymore. I'm skill of my imagining passages that

516
00:37:10,996 --> 00:37:17,276
Speaker 1: I would be fingering on my instrument, although I can't

517
00:37:17,316 --> 00:37:23,836
Speaker 1: do that anymore. So I'm listening to music. I love music,

518
00:37:23,916 --> 00:37:28,436
Speaker 1: and occasionally I get to hear music, aren't some of

519
00:37:28,476 --> 00:37:33,196
Speaker 1: the radio stations I have on. I hear some music

520
00:37:33,236 --> 00:37:36,436
Speaker 1: and I love it. But I don't go out to

521
00:37:36,636 --> 00:37:39,836
Speaker 1: listen to music anymore. I don't mean go out in

522
00:37:39,836 --> 00:37:44,196
Speaker 1: the street. I mean I don't seek out music anymore.

523
00:37:44,836 --> 00:37:46,996
Speaker 1: It is it frustrating to hear it in a sense,

524
00:37:47,116 --> 00:37:49,356
Speaker 1: since you can't you just pick up your horn and

525
00:37:49,716 --> 00:37:53,156
Speaker 1: play some figures or anything. To a certain extent, I

526
00:37:53,676 --> 00:37:58,116
Speaker 1: wouldn't look very completely his frustration, but that's part of it,

527
00:37:59,036 --> 00:38:03,076
Speaker 1: because I hear something and I fear what I would

528
00:38:03,156 --> 00:38:07,396
Speaker 1: be doing. What I can do so in a sense

529
00:38:07,476 --> 00:38:13,476
Speaker 1: I was safe. This not a frustration because I love

530
00:38:13,596 --> 00:38:18,476
Speaker 1: music and listening to somebody that I admire. It is great.

531
00:38:18,556 --> 00:38:23,956
Speaker 1: It's a great feeling. So frustration might come a littlement

532
00:38:24,676 --> 00:38:29,716
Speaker 1: because I can't contribute, being that it was part of

533
00:38:29,796 --> 00:38:33,636
Speaker 1: the insig Sonny. It is um. There is a pleasure

534
00:38:33,636 --> 00:38:35,756
Speaker 1: and an honor speaking with you. I hope we get

535
00:38:35,796 --> 00:38:38,596
Speaker 1: to do it again. Okay, man, take it easy in

536
00:38:38,956 --> 00:38:46,396
Speaker 1: God bless you as well, sir. All right man, all right, bye, Sonny.

537
00:38:47,596 --> 00:38:49,916
Speaker 1: Thanks for Sonny Rollins for taking us back to some

538
00:38:49,996 --> 00:38:54,956
Speaker 1: of the earliest, most important moments in American recorded music history.

539
00:38:55,236 --> 00:38:57,556
Speaker 1: Do you hear your favorite Sonny Rollins songs? Check out

540
00:38:57,596 --> 00:39:01,476
Speaker 1: the playlist at broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure

541
00:39:01,516 --> 00:39:04,476
Speaker 1: to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com

542
00:39:04,516 --> 00:39:07,516
Speaker 1: slash broken Record Podcasts, where you can find all of

543
00:39:07,516 --> 00:39:11,116
Speaker 1: our new episodes. Can follow us on Twitter at broken Record.

544
00:39:11,476 --> 00:39:13,876
Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced a help from Lea Rose, Jason

545
00:39:13,916 --> 00:39:18,276
Speaker 1: gambrel Ent, Holiday, Rick Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering

546
00:39:18,356 --> 00:39:21,956
Speaker 1: help from Nick Chaffey. Our executive producer is Mia Lobell.

547
00:39:22,836 --> 00:39:25,996
Speaker 1: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you

548
00:39:26,076 --> 00:39:28,756
Speaker 1: like this show and others from pushkin consider subscribing to

549
00:39:28,916 --> 00:39:32,796
Speaker 1: Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers

550
00:39:32,836 --> 00:39:36,476
Speaker 1: bonus content an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety

551
00:39:36,516 --> 00:39:40,476
Speaker 1: nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions,

552
00:39:41,156 --> 00:39:43,236
Speaker 1: and if you like the show, please remember to share,

553
00:39:43,316 --> 00:39:46,116
Speaker 1: wait and review us on your podcast app. Our themes

554
00:39:46,156 --> 00:39:48,356
Speaker 1: expect Anny Beats, I'm justin Richmond,