WEBVTT - O Death, Part 1: The Reaper’s Image 0:00:03.000 --> 0:00:06.760 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:14.800 Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:16.000 name is Robert Lamb. 0:00:16.040 --> 0:00:18.880 And I'm Joe McCormick. And today on Stuff to Blow 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:20.960 Your Mind, we're going to be beginning a series of 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:25.680 episodes about the personification of death, when death becomes not 0:00:25.760 --> 0:00:29.280 a process but a person or I guess more generally 0:00:29.320 --> 0:00:32.559 an entity. So, Rob, you picked out this topic, how 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:33.720 did you end up thinking about this? 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:36.159 Well, I guess the main answer is how could I 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:40.720 not write because general contemplations of mortality aside, which will 0:00:41.040 --> 0:00:45.360 definitely unwrap as we proceed here, All that aside, anthropomorphic 0:00:45.400 --> 0:00:48.960 personifications of death are just everywhere in our media and culture, 0:00:49.360 --> 0:00:52.360 to the point that it almost becomes invisible until you 0:00:52.400 --> 0:00:56.920 really start looking for it. Like I was just reflecting 0:00:56.960 --> 0:00:59.840 over the movies that my family and I watched to 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:02.640 get during the month of December, and they are like 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.559 three different films that had a personification of the Grim 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:08.400 Reaper in it, you know, to varying degrees. So two 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:12.119 of them were of course from a Christmas Carol from 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:14.640 Mickey's Christmas Carol, which we watched, and then also the 0:01:14.720 --> 0:01:19.000 nineteen seventy Scrooge Musical, which is also excellent. Both of 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:22.640 those have a manifestation of the Ghost of Christmas Yet 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.920 to Come, which is a death entity. Of course, in 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:29.360 the original story and in pretty much any adaptation you 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:33.840 encounter often depicted as a grim reaper, a skeletal figure 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:35.560 in a black robe. 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.760 The bony hand pointing the Scrooge's grave. Yea name is 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:39.399 on that grave. 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:42.520 Yeah. And then another one we watched was the two 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:46.160 thousand and six TV adaptation of Terry Pratchett's The Hogfather, 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:50.040 in which you have actual death taking over the duties 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:53.400 of a Santa like figure named the hog Father in 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:56.560 order to save the mortal world, in a story that 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:59.320 I have to stress is equal parts hilarious and silly 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:03.600 and then also legitimately thought provoking. And beyond these examples, though, 0:02:03.640 --> 0:02:06.080 it just really becomes a challenge to think of works 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.760 and fandoms and sort of fan you know, mythos is 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:15.120 that don't have at least some death personification analogue. You know, 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:19.679 even if it's not a direct Reaper style figure, then 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:22.440 maybe it's somebody who just looks like death, like for instance, 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:24.480 Star Wars. Of course, you know, the Emperor or Emperor 0:02:24.520 --> 0:02:28.640 Palpatine is month after sent past cinematic depictions of death. 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:29.679 That's good. 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:33.079 Yeah, so they're just simply too many to name. We'll 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:35.120 probably name some as we go, but yeah, you have 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:38.639 everything from the enigmatic chess player from the Seventh Seal 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:43.320 to just various versions of death in comic books where 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:46.920 heshi or they range in exactly how they're depicted and 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:51.760 you know, seriousness and some are frightful, summer sexy. We 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.880 have all different sorts of rappings that we give the 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:55.560 death entity. 0:02:55.919 --> 0:02:58.640 The one from the Seventh Seal goes a long way. 0:02:58.720 --> 0:03:03.040 I noticed even academic papers and scientific papers in the 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:06.320 in the background section often mentioning the Seventh Seal. 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:08.680 Yeah, and that is the one that I'm to understand. 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.320 Emperor Palpatine is like visually based. 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:12.799 Upon and Bill and Ted. 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:16.440 Yeah, yes, of course, of course, Yeah, we'll have to 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:19.399 come back to him as well. But yeah, the cessation 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:23.400 of life is the ultimate individual dwell point in all 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:27.080 of our futures, drawing us towards our fate and just 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:31.160 summoning endless contemplations of it along you know, multiple lines 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.640 of human culture. So again, yeah, it's hard not to 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:38.720 think about about the personification of death, you know, even 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.600 just sort of like you know, I don't know, spitballing 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:44.360 over the years and just think, you know, encountering death 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:47.160 in life. I've long thought of death, and I'm not 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.520 the first to think of it this way, like a 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.080 figure in the distance, you know. And perhaps if you're 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.720 very lucky, you begin at a considerable distance from this figure, 0:03:56.480 --> 0:04:00.520 though it inevitably comes closer, and not merely in terms 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.000 of the advancement of one's own life, but of course 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:06.640 also the myriad ways we wind up experiencing death through 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:10.920 the passage of others in the world around us, close, distant, 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:15.320 you know, it makes no difference. It's all unavoidable, of course. 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:18.920 And as this figure approaches, we continually make out more details, 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:21.599 at first in its silhouette, and then as it comes 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:25.280 closer still we make out more exact features. Features maybe 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:29.080 we've long suspected we're there, believed to be there, or 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:33.240 that we've been taught to expect, and perhaps new revelations 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.320 as well. And I still find this to be the case. 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.880 Yeah, this visual metaphor of death is a figure that 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:42.400 is in the distance, but on its own closing the 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:45.800 distance to us. Is one that I think about how 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:48.240 well this was explored in a horror movie from a 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:48.880 few years back. 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:52.880 It follows, yeah, you've seen that one, Yes, absolutely, yeah, 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:56.839 and yeah it it really does feel like that sometimes 0:04:57.040 --> 0:05:00.000 it's such a great yeah, a great a visual metaphor 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:00.400 for it. 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.880 Now, I want to advise listeners here that yes, these 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:07.520 episodes are going to deal with the concept of death 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:11.520 personified in human culture and what it means. So no 0:05:11.600 --> 0:05:13.279 shame if it's just not the right time for you 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:16.080 to listen to these episodes. We're going to, of course 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.280 approach the topic with the same level of respect and 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:23.719 curiosity that we always try to use and approaching subject 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:26.800 matter on the show. I know I can understand though 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:28.479 if you want to skip them. In many ways, I 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.599 feel like I had my fill of death in twenty 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:33.279 twenty five, and I'm sure virtually everyone feels the same. 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:36.360 I don't think anyone out there is thinks thinking to themselves, Man, 0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:40.760 I wish I'd experienced more death in my world, so 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:43.480 part of me would prefer not to think about it either. 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:47.840 But I also feel like it's helpful to chase after 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:52.320 these concepts instead and maybe better understand them, and also 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:56.720 you know, explore how everyone before us has thought about 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.320 these concepts. So in this series, we're going to tackle 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:02.000 the subject matter here from a number of different angles. 0:06:03.120 --> 0:06:06.160 This episode is going to deal largely with some of 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:10.320 the overreaching classifications that they are going to be essential 0:06:10.600 --> 0:06:12.200 for our conversations moving forward. 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.000 That's right. Yeah, So we thought in part one here 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:18.800 it might be good to focus mostly on types of 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:24.160 death personified and to kick things off, there is one 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:29.960 interesting distinction I started thinking about between two related but 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:32.720 different figures that appear in a lot of different mythologies, 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:37.920 and that is the figure that actually embodies the moment 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:42.840 of death itself, like the grim reaper, versus the figure 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.920 that we might call the psychopomp. The psychopomp coming from 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:50.560 the Greek meaning the soul guide, the guide to the afterlife. 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:55.200 So the grim reaper type figure appears at or right 0:06:55.240 --> 0:06:59.360 before the moment of death. It is sometimes glimpsed by 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:03.120 the doomed as a notice of impending death. Maybe you 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.880 even see it a good time before your death, but 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:08.479 you know it's just there letting you know, like hey soon. 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.559 Sometimes it is portrayed as showing up right before death 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:16.320 and kind of calling the still living person to the 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:21.160 realm of death, or sometimes it is imagine to actually 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:25.440 mechanically cause death in some way, maybe by touch or 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.840 by kiss or by a word. So it's there at 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.280 the moment the person dies to either let them know 0:07:31.400 --> 0:07:34.080 death is coming, to call them, or to make them die. 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:36.800 Whereas what does what does death do? In the Final 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:38.600 Destination movies? 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.160 Death settles the score In those movies, death is an 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:45.240 accountant and notices that you are in debt and we 0:07:45.640 --> 0:07:46.600 need to come collect. 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:49.480 Okay, we'll come back to that example then for sure. 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:53.040 Yeah, So that's sort of the grim reaper type figure, 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:58.560 whereas the psychopomp figure appears to guide or faery the 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:02.080 soul of the dead to the afterlife. So I was 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:05.440 thinking about an analogy. The grim reaper figure is like 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.360 the bouncer who taps you on the shoulder and says, hey, 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.440 it's time to leave. You know you're cut off, we're 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:16.160 going versus the psychopomp is the cab driver who takes 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:18.240 you home after you've been kicked out of the club. 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:24.080 And this distinction appears across a lot of different cultures 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:27.360 and mythologies, but of course it's not universal. Sometimes there 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:32.040 are major death associated figures that don't exactly fit either type. 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:36.720 Sometimes there are figures that embody both rolls simultaneously, as 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:38.599 if you know, the bouncer tells you it's time to 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:40.839 leave and then also gives you a ride home. 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.640 Okay, that's a good way of putting it. I was 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:47.280 reflecting on these two types and thinking, Okay, the grim 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:50.839 reaper type is I guess more easily conceptualized as a 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:54.840 hunter or a killer. You know, in one case, maybe 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:57.760 not even a human enemy, but you know, one that 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.800 hunts you and pursues you and will eventually gets you. 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:03.640 But there's like that idea, well maybe I can outsmart 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:06.200 it in the meantime, Yeah, maybe I can bargain with 0:09:06.240 --> 0:09:11.080 it and so forth. Whereas the psychopomp that feels much 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:13.640 more human in nature because it is like it is 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:16.760 it is ultimately well maybe not always, but in many 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:21.200 cases the psychopomp is an ally. It is someone you 0:09:21.320 --> 0:09:24.600 want to find you because you've died, Yes, but now 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:27.200 you have this journey that needs to be undertaken to 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.600 reach the afterlife, and the psychopomp is going to guide 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:31.040 you there. 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:35.040 Yeah. And the role of the psychopomp I think differs 0:09:35.080 --> 0:09:38.040 a lot, depending on what your particular what your particular 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:42.080 vision of the afterlife is. So, you know, there are 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:45.160 some more benevolent views of the afterlife where they're kind 0:09:45.160 --> 0:09:48.760 of like an you know, they're the concierge who arrives 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:50.679 to say like, hey, everything's going to be great now 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:54.560 we're going up to heaven versus there are more threatening 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:57.040 or perilous journeys to the afterlife where you need a 0:09:57.080 --> 0:09:59.400 guide to get you there or you are in trouble. 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:02.800 Yes, yeah, and yeah. And in this case with the psychopomp, 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:06.679 they're not judges, they're facilitators of a journey. Yeah. 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:09.120 So I thought it might be worth mentioning just a 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:12.360 couple of examples of these types appearing in literature, and 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:14.360 we can come back to these throughout the series. But 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:19.600 one demonstration of a psychopomp figure that stuck out in 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:24.120 my head is the way Hermes, the god Hermes, guides 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:27.600 the pitiful souls of the dead suitors to Hades in 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:31.240 the Odyssey. Do you remember the rob m Yeah, yeah, vaguely. 0:10:31.360 --> 0:10:31.680 Yes. 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.880 So I'm going to read from the Richard Lattimore translation here. 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:36.400 This is going to be in the beginning of book 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:40.000 twenty four, and the context in the story is that 0:10:40.040 --> 0:10:44.280 Odysseus has come home finally to Ithaca, and he finds 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:46.560 that while he's been gone, all these guys have been 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.679 trying to woo his wife, Penelope. They're referred to as 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:51.920 the suitors. And all these guys are like, hey, you 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:55.360 know he's not coming back. Marry me instead, And so 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.120 Odysseus comes back and he kills them all. He kills 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:01.240 them all to reclaim mastery over his house. And then 0:11:01.360 --> 0:11:04.800 after the slaughter, Odysseus and Penelope go off to bed together. 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:08.200 And later we're told what happens to the souls of 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:10.719 the dead suitors. So here I'm gonna read from the 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:15.160 beginning of book twenty four. Hermes of Kyline summoned the 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:17.800 souls of the suitors to come forth, and in his 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:21.840 hands he was holding the beautiful golden staff. This is 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:27.040 the Cadusius, the beautiful golden staff with which he mazes 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:30.120 the eyes of those mortals whose eyes he would maize, 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.079 or wakes again the sleepers, hurting them on with this, 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:37.679 he led them along, and they followed, gibbering, and as 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:41.120 when bats in the depth of an awful cave, flitter 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:43.720 and gibber when one of them has fallen out of 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.360 his place in the chain that the bats have formed 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:51.040 by holding one on another. So gibbering, they went their 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:55.000 way together, and Hermes, the kindly healer, led them along 0:11:55.080 --> 0:11:59.160 down moldering pathways. They went along and passed the ocean 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:02.520 stream and the White Rock, and past the gates of 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:06.359 Helios the Sun, and the country of dreams, and presently 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:09.920 arrived in the meadow of Asphodel. This is the dwelling 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:13.720 place of souls, the images of dead men. Oh wow, 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.640 so here Hermes. And if you read older translations, this 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:21.040 is sometimes rendered as Mercury, but Hermes would be the 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:23.880 accurate name of the god. Here in the great context, 0:12:23.880 --> 0:12:28.439 Hermes leads the powerless and bewildered souls of the dead 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.160 into Hades, into the land of the dead, kind of 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:35.240 like Batman with his bat summoning beacon. You know, I 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:36.320 remember that? Is is it? 0:12:36.320 --> 0:12:36.400 In? 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.960 Batman begins that he like presses a button on something, 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:40.959 and it makes a big train of bats up here 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:44.560 and swirl down on it. Except, of course, the thing 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.199 that he uses to lead them is not technology. It 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:51.120 is the magical Wand again the Cadusius, the staff and 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:55.520 the suitors here are already dead. Their souls are being 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:59.760 guided to the next place in their journey. And importantly, 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:03.959 they need a guide because in this ancient Greek vision 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:07.760 of death, the souls of the dead are not They 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:11.240 don't go to the afterlife automatically, I think, you know, 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:14.080 in some visions of ancient Greek afterlife they do, but 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:17.959 here they really need a guide. And also, the souls 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.560 of the dead in this ancient Greek vision of the 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:25.360 afterlife are not elevated to a superhuman state of like 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:29.160 demi godhood, as we often imagine the ghosts of the 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.640 dead and modern media, you know, when you see like 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:36.640 movies and stuff today, it's almost like people imagine that 0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.679 when someone dies they become a ghost or an angel, 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.840 and they become like a god, they gain extra powers, 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:46.520 they're semi omniscient, you know. The souls of the dead 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:50.120 are not like that. In the vision of Homer, these 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:57.000 souls are distinctly diminished. They're confused, frightened, and without much 0:13:57.080 --> 0:13:59.520 strength or agency of their own. And that's why they're 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.520 described does gibbering like bats in a cave. They're just 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:05.480 you know, they're they're no longer even fully human. They're 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:07.720 just kind of like, you know, crying out in pain 0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:10.319 and astonishment, and they don't know what to do. They 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:12.760 are like sheep in a flock, actually, and they need 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:14.960 a shepherd with the staff to guide them or they 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:19.440 will be lost. So that's a classic psychopomp. But by contrast, 0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:24.960 reaper type figures usually appear before death to the living, 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.440 giving them a signal of impending doom. 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:33.040 Yeah, and there are ultimately tons of examples we could 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:36.000 draw from here, and the one that I'm gonna mention 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:38.600 first is maybe not the best example because it's more 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:42.000 death adjacent than it is supposed to be actually death. 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:44.640 But I thought about it many times in the run 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.600 up to this episode. I was also just reminded of 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.000 it because the cadence in Homer kind of reminds me 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:51.600 of the cadence of what I'm going to read here. 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.440 This is, of course, just one tiny bit from the 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:58.280 Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner by Samuel Taylor Coleridge, and 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.760 it goes as follows, like one that on a lonesome 0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:05.240 road doth walk in fear and dread, and having once 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:08.360 turned round, walks on and turns no more his head 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:13.360 because he knows a frightful fiend doth close behind him tread. 0:15:14.640 --> 0:15:17.400 So in fact, here you don't even see it. You 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:19.960 just know it's there again, it's closing the distance. 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:24.480 Yeah, yeah, So it's this idea again. This is maybe 0:15:24.480 --> 0:15:28.440 not death, this death adjacent Jason, a contemplation of fear. 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:32.480 We don't know, or at least I assume, we don't 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:36.080 know whether the teller here actually sees anything behind him 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:38.840 in this example, or he just feels that it is there. 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.560 And then feeling that is there, there's a certainty that 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.360 they are pursued, that they're hunted, and that it will 0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:47.520 eventually catch up with them, and so what can they 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:52.160 do but just continue on in the state of anxious dread. Now, 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.200 there are a couple of more fun examples of a 0:15:56.840 --> 0:16:00.920 clear grim Reaper character that you can find in the 0:16:01.320 --> 0:16:05.720 writings of the Brothers. Grim Death's Messengers is one that's 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:09.480 pretty fun and ultimately has a punchline. One of the 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:12.360 things about the grim Reaper or any personification of death, 0:16:12.600 --> 0:16:16.040 as I'll probably mention again, whenever there's a joke, generally 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:18.800 you are the punchline. That's just how Death's humor goes. 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.760 And that's pretty much what happens here. But in Death's Messengers, 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:26.440 a fun little story in which Death gets caught up 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.080 in a fight with a giant, like essentially the Grim 0:16:29.080 --> 0:16:31.720 Reaper ends up fighting a giant and gets whooped by 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:35.680 the giant. Usually we think of personifications of death being 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:39.480 pretty powerful when it comes to mortals, and maybe even 0:16:39.760 --> 0:16:43.640 like semi immortal characters. But here the giant just whips 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.960 Death leaves them, you know, laying next to a stone 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:49.080 on the side of the road or whatever. And then 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:52.640 a young man comes across Death, doesn't know that he's Death, 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:54.600 and says like, oh, here's a guy who needs my help. 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:58.320 I'll help him out. And we also come to understand 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:01.760 that this is necessary because if the longer Death is 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:05.120 out of action, the more Death cannot do his thing. 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:07.320 People are not going to die, the world's going to 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:10.560 become overrun, and so forth. Oh no, so, But the 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.640 young man knows nothing of this. He just helps him up, 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:16.240 and then Death asks the young man if he knows 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:19.000 who he is. The young man says, nope, no idea, 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.639 just trying to do a good deed, and Death says, 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:25.320 I am Death. I spare no one, nor can make 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:28.879 an exception with you, however, so you may see that 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.320 I am grateful. I promise you that I will not 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.320 attack you without warning, but instead I will send my 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:38.000 messagers to you before I come and take you away. 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:41.520 And then the twist is that after various bouts of illness, 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:45.240 death does come for the man, and he initially is like, whoaa, 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.640 whoa hold on? You promised me that you would send 0:17:48.640 --> 0:17:51.240 messengers first. You wouldn't just come and swoop me up. 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:54.120 I would have some warning, and Death informs him, yes, 0:17:54.200 --> 0:17:56.120 I did send you messengers, and he gives a list 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:58.960 of all these ailments that the man had suffered. He's like, 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.679 those were my messengers, and then the story ends with 0:18:01.960 --> 0:18:03.840 the man did not know how to answer, so he 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:08.480 surrendered to his fate and went away with Death got him. Yeah. 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:16.120 And there's another tale, Godfather Death, which involves Death being 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:19.800 named as the godfather of a child who then grows 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:23.919 up to become a famous physician because his godfather Death 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:27.600 shows him a special healing herb that grows in the 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.320 forest and also gives him this ability to see where 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:35.160 death stands in relation to an ill person. So if 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.600 he sees death at the head of the bed, of 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:40.399 the sick person is a bond, then he knows that 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:43.560 that individual can be cured with the magic herb. If 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.080 death stands at the foot of the bed, well, then 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:49.320 no cure is possible. Might as well pack it up. 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:53.080 But then the physician ends up exploiting this trick by 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:57.240 turning the bed around. And this works, you know, once 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.959 or twice, but he runs a foul of death in 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:01.640 the process. 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:04.240 Oh man, I thought that would be a good lesson 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:05.560 about correlation and causation. 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:11.280 But in both tales, death is mostly an executioner of 0:19:11.320 --> 0:19:14.560 a decree. You know, He's there's a bit of the 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:16.840 psycho pomp there as well. In the first tale, death 0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:19.760 says upon finding the main character again, he initially says, 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:22.800 follow me. The hour of your departure from this world 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:27.000 has come. So, you know, I guess we can tales 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:29.160 like this. We can kind of get into the details 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.680 of like, Okay, is he does he do something? Does 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:33.800 he actually have a scythe? And is he going to 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.639 swing that scythe and like sever something like sever you 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.280 from the mortal world? Is there a thread that needs 0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:41.679 to be cut? Is there a soul that needs to 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:44.760 be like ripped out of the body Mortal Kombat style 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:47.520 or is it more of like, hey, I'm here, come 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.440 with me. Get in, dummy, We're off to the afterlife. 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.119 Well, rob, if you are ready, I was going to 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:08.280 talk about a few ideas about the archetypes of death 0:20:08.520 --> 0:20:12.479 from studies in psychology from beginning in like the nineteen 0:20:12.520 --> 0:20:15.159 sixties and seventies and coming up until recent years. Do 0:20:15.200 --> 0:20:17.639 you want to jump into that, Let's do it. So 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:20.720 there's one concept I think we should start with before 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:24.880 we talk about anything else about archetypes of death in psychology, 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:29.520 because lots of psychology studies about the personification of death 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:34.320 refer back to the same foundational text, and that text 0:20:34.440 --> 0:20:38.040 is a book from nineteen seventy two called The Psychology 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:43.399 of Death by Robert Castenbaum and Ruth Aisenberg. This was 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:46.520 a very important work in the academic study of how 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:50.000 we think and feel about death. But the idea that 0:20:50.920 --> 0:20:53.800 gets repeated the most from it is this idea of 0:20:53.840 --> 0:21:00.520 the four archetypes of death. So Castenbaum and Aisenberg set 0:21:00.520 --> 0:21:04.200 out to investigate how Americans think about death when they 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:07.280 imagine it as a person or an entity, and they 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:10.560 use the following prompt in their initial sort of open 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:14.960 ended question and answer sessions. So they said, if death 0:21:15.000 --> 0:21:17.919 were a person, what sort of a person would death be? 0:21:18.600 --> 0:21:21.280 Think of this question until an image of death as 0:21:21.320 --> 0:21:25.480 a human being forms in your mind. Then describe death physically, 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:29.639 what death would look like? Now, what would death be like? 0:21:29.800 --> 0:21:34.639 What kind of personality would death have? And after comparing 0:21:34.680 --> 0:21:37.560 a whole bunch of answers, And then after they did 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:40.960 the initial research with like open ended queries, they started 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:44.960 doing kind of consolidating these into categories and asking people 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:48.520 multiple choice questions. And the authors end up arguing that 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:54.439 most Americans' ideas about death fell into one of four 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:59.640 general categories, which they called the macabre, the gentle comforter, 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:05.760 the gay deceiver, and the automaton. So to briefly summarize 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:08.600 these archetypes, I'm going to draw from an updated edition 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:11.359 of The Psychology of Death published by Castenbaum in the 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:15.560 year two thousand. So the first one is the macab. 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:22.160 Castenbaum writes quote, the macab was characterized as a powerful, overwhelming, 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:26.760 and repulsive figure. The image often was of an emaciated 0:22:26.880 --> 0:22:30.679 or decaying human, or of a monster with only faint 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:36.000 resemblance to human form. So a few characteristics of the Macab. 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:40.240 In terms of age and gender. When human in form, 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:45.200 the Macab was most often imagined as a hideous old man. 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:49.840 In terms of personality, the Macab is either callous and 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:55.399 unfeeling or actively sadistic, wanting to hurt you. People. I 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:59.520