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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick. And today on Stuff to Blow

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Speaker 3: Your Mind, we're going to be beginning a series of

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Speaker 3: episodes about the personification of death, when death becomes not

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Speaker 3: a process but a person or I guess more generally

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Speaker 3: an entity. So, Rob, you picked out this topic, how

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Speaker 3: did you end up thinking about this?

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess the main answer is how could I

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Speaker 2: not write because general contemplations of mortality aside, which will

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Speaker 2: definitely unwrap as we proceed here, All that aside, anthropomorphic

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Speaker 2: personifications of death are just everywhere in our media and culture,

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Speaker 2: to the point that it almost becomes invisible until you

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Speaker 2: really start looking for it. Like I was just reflecting

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Speaker 2: over the movies that my family and I watched to

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Speaker 2: get during the month of December, and they are like

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Speaker 2: three different films that had a personification of the Grim

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Speaker 2: Reaper in it, you know, to varying degrees. So two

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Speaker 2: of them were of course from a Christmas Carol from

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Speaker 2: Mickey's Christmas Carol, which we watched, and then also the

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy Scrooge Musical, which is also excellent. Both of

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Speaker 2: those have a manifestation of the Ghost of Christmas Yet

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Speaker 2: to Come, which is a death entity. Of course, in

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Speaker 2: the original story and in pretty much any adaptation you

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Speaker 2: encounter often depicted as a grim reaper, a skeletal figure

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Speaker 2: in a black robe.

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Speaker 3: The bony hand pointing the Scrooge's grave. Yea name is

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Speaker 3: on that grave.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And then another one we watched was the two

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Speaker 2: thousand and six TV adaptation of Terry Pratchett's The Hogfather,

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Speaker 2: in which you have actual death taking over the duties

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Speaker 2: of a Santa like figure named the hog Father in

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Speaker 2: order to save the mortal world, in a story that

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Speaker 2: I have to stress is equal parts hilarious and silly

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Speaker 2: and then also legitimately thought provoking. And beyond these examples, though,

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Speaker 2: it just really becomes a challenge to think of works

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Speaker 2: and fandoms and sort of fan you know, mythos is

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Speaker 2: that don't have at least some death personification analogue. You know,

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Speaker 2: even if it's not a direct Reaper style figure, then

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Speaker 2: maybe it's somebody who just looks like death, like for instance,

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Speaker 2: Star Wars. Of course, you know, the Emperor or Emperor

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Speaker 2: Palpatine is month after sent past cinematic depictions of death.

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Speaker 3: That's good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so they're just simply too many to name. We'll

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Speaker 2: probably name some as we go, but yeah, you have

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Speaker 2: everything from the enigmatic chess player from the Seventh Seal

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Speaker 2: to just various versions of death in comic books where

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Speaker 2: heshi or they range in exactly how they're depicted and

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Speaker 2: you know, seriousness and some are frightful, summer sexy. We

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Speaker 2: have all different sorts of rappings that we give the

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Speaker 2: death entity.

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Speaker 3: The one from the Seventh Seal goes a long way.

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Speaker 3: I noticed even academic papers and scientific papers in the

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Speaker 3: in the background section often mentioning the Seventh Seal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that is the one that I'm to understand.

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Speaker 2: Emperor Palpatine is like visually based.

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Speaker 3: Upon and Bill and Ted.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, of course, of course, Yeah, we'll have to

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Speaker 2: come back to him as well. But yeah, the cessation

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Speaker 2: of life is the ultimate individual dwell point in all

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Speaker 2: of our futures, drawing us towards our fate and just

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Speaker 2: summoning endless contemplations of it along you know, multiple lines

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Speaker 2: of human culture. So again, yeah, it's hard not to

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Speaker 2: think about about the personification of death, you know, even

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Speaker 2: just sort of like you know, I don't know, spitballing

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Speaker 2: over the years and just think, you know, encountering death

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Speaker 2: in life. I've long thought of death, and I'm not

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Speaker 2: the first to think of it this way, like a

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Speaker 2: figure in the distance, you know. And perhaps if you're

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Speaker 2: very lucky, you begin at a considerable distance from this figure,

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Speaker 2: though it inevitably comes closer, and not merely in terms

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Speaker 2: of the advancement of one's own life, but of course

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Speaker 2: also the myriad ways we wind up experiencing death through

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Speaker 2: the passage of others in the world around us, close, distant,

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Speaker 2: you know, it makes no difference. It's all unavoidable, of course.

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Speaker 2: And as this figure approaches, we continually make out more details,

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Speaker 2: at first in its silhouette, and then as it comes

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Speaker 2: closer still we make out more exact features. Features maybe

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Speaker 2: we've long suspected we're there, believed to be there, or

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Speaker 2: that we've been taught to expect, and perhaps new revelations

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Speaker 2: as well. And I still find this to be the case.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this visual metaphor of death is a figure that

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Speaker 3: is in the distance, but on its own closing the

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Speaker 3: distance to us. Is one that I think about how

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Speaker 3: well this was explored in a horror movie from a

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Speaker 3: few years back.

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Speaker 4: It follows, yeah, you've seen that one, Yes, absolutely, yeah,

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Speaker 4: and yeah it it really does feel like that sometimes

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Speaker 4: it's such a great yeah, a great a visual metaphor

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Speaker 4: for it.

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Speaker 2: Now, I want to advise listeners here that yes, these

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Speaker 2: episodes are going to deal with the concept of death

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Speaker 2: personified in human culture and what it means. So no

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Speaker 2: shame if it's just not the right time for you

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Speaker 2: to listen to these episodes. We're going to, of course

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Speaker 2: approach the topic with the same level of respect and

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Speaker 2: curiosity that we always try to use and approaching subject

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Speaker 2: matter on the show. I know I can understand though

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Speaker 2: if you want to skip them. In many ways, I

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Speaker 2: feel like I had my fill of death in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five, and I'm sure virtually everyone feels the same.

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Speaker 2: I don't think anyone out there is thinks thinking to themselves, Man,

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Speaker 2: I wish I'd experienced more death in my world, so

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Speaker 2: part of me would prefer not to think about it either.

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Speaker 2: But I also feel like it's helpful to chase after

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Speaker 2: these concepts instead and maybe better understand them, and also

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Speaker 2: you know, explore how everyone before us has thought about

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Speaker 2: these concepts. So in this series, we're going to tackle

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Speaker 2: the subject matter here from a number of different angles.

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Speaker 2: This episode is going to deal largely with some of

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Speaker 2: the overreaching classifications that they are going to be essential

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Speaker 2: for our conversations moving forward.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Yeah, So we thought in part one here

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Speaker 3: it might be good to focus mostly on types of

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Speaker 3: death personified and to kick things off, there is one

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Speaker 3: interesting distinction I started thinking about between two related but

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Speaker 3: different figures that appear in a lot of different mythologies,

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Speaker 3: and that is the figure that actually embodies the moment

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Speaker 3: of death itself, like the grim reaper, versus the figure

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Speaker 3: that we might call the psychopomp. The psychopomp coming from

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Speaker 3: the Greek meaning the soul guide, the guide to the afterlife.

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Speaker 3: So the grim reaper type figure appears at or right

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Speaker 3: before the moment of death. It is sometimes glimpsed by

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Speaker 3: the doomed as a notice of impending death. Maybe you

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Speaker 3: even see it a good time before your death, but

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Speaker 3: you know it's just there letting you know, like hey soon.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes it is portrayed as showing up right before death

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Speaker 3: and kind of calling the still living person to the

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Speaker 3: realm of death, or sometimes it is imagine to actually

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Speaker 3: mechanically cause death in some way, maybe by touch or

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Speaker 3: by kiss or by a word. So it's there at

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Speaker 3: the moment the person dies to either let them know

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Speaker 3: death is coming, to call them, or to make them die.

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Speaker 2: Whereas what does what does death do? In the Final

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Speaker 2: Destination movies?

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Speaker 3: Death settles the score In those movies, death is an

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Speaker 3: accountant and notices that you are in debt and we

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Speaker 3: need to come collect.

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Speaker 2: Okay, we'll come back to that example then for sure.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's sort of the grim reaper type figure,

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Speaker 3: whereas the psychopomp figure appears to guide or faery the

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Speaker 3: soul of the dead to the afterlife. So I was

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Speaker 3: thinking about an analogy. The grim reaper figure is like

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Speaker 3: the bouncer who taps you on the shoulder and says, hey,

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Speaker 3: it's time to leave. You know you're cut off, we're

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Speaker 3: going versus the psychopomp is the cab driver who takes

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Speaker 3: you home after you've been kicked out of the club.

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Speaker 3: And this distinction appears across a lot of different cultures

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Speaker 3: and mythologies, but of course it's not universal. Sometimes there

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Speaker 3: are major death associated figures that don't exactly fit either type.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes there are figures that embody both rolls simultaneously, as

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Speaker 3: if you know, the bouncer tells you it's time to

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Speaker 3: leave and then also gives you a ride home.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that's a good way of putting it. I was

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Speaker 2: reflecting on these two types and thinking, Okay, the grim

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Speaker 2: reaper type is I guess more easily conceptualized as a

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Speaker 2: hunter or a killer. You know, in one case, maybe

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Speaker 2: not even a human enemy, but you know, one that

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Speaker 2: hunts you and pursues you and will eventually gets you.

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Speaker 2: But there's like that idea, well maybe I can outsmart

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Speaker 2: it in the meantime, Yeah, maybe I can bargain with

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Speaker 2: it and so forth. Whereas the psychopomp that feels much

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Speaker 2: more human in nature because it is like it is

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Speaker 2: it is ultimately well maybe not always, but in many

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Speaker 2: cases the psychopomp is an ally. It is someone you

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Speaker 2: want to find you because you've died, Yes, but now

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Speaker 2: you have this journey that needs to be undertaken to

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Speaker 2: reach the afterlife, and the psychopomp is going to guide

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Speaker 2: you there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And the role of the psychopomp I think differs

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Speaker 3: a lot, depending on what your particular what your particular

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Speaker 3: vision of the afterlife is. So, you know, there are

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Speaker 3: some more benevolent views of the afterlife where they're kind

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Speaker 3: of like an you know, they're the concierge who arrives

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Speaker 3: to say like, hey, everything's going to be great now

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Speaker 3: we're going up to heaven versus there are more threatening

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Speaker 3: or perilous journeys to the afterlife where you need a

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Speaker 3: guide to get you there or you are in trouble.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, and yeah. And in this case with the psychopomp,

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Speaker 2: they're not judges, they're facilitators of a journey. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So I thought it might be worth mentioning just a

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Speaker 3: couple of examples of these types appearing in literature, and

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Speaker 3: we can come back to these throughout the series. But

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Speaker 3: one demonstration of a psychopomp figure that stuck out in

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Speaker 3: my head is the way Hermes, the god Hermes, guides

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Speaker 3: the pitiful souls of the dead suitors to Hades in

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Speaker 3: the Odyssey. Do you remember the rob m Yeah, yeah, vaguely.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: So I'm going to read from the Richard Lattimore translation here.

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Speaker 3: This is going to be in the beginning of book

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Speaker 3: twenty four, and the context in the story is that

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Speaker 3: Odysseus has come home finally to Ithaca, and he finds

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Speaker 3: that while he's been gone, all these guys have been

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Speaker 3: trying to woo his wife, Penelope. They're referred to as

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Speaker 3: the suitors. And all these guys are like, hey, you

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Speaker 3: know he's not coming back. Marry me instead, And so

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Speaker 3: Odysseus comes back and he kills them all. He kills

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Speaker 3: them all to reclaim mastery over his house. And then

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Speaker 3: after the slaughter, Odysseus and Penelope go off to bed together.

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Speaker 3: And later we're told what happens to the souls of

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Speaker 3: the dead suitors. So here I'm gonna read from the

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Speaker 3: beginning of book twenty four. Hermes of Kyline summoned the

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Speaker 3: souls of the suitors to come forth, and in his

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Speaker 3: hands he was holding the beautiful golden staff. This is

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Speaker 3: the Cadusius, the beautiful golden staff with which he mazes

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Speaker 3: the eyes of those mortals whose eyes he would maize,

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Speaker 3: or wakes again the sleepers, hurting them on with this,

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Speaker 3: he led them along, and they followed, gibbering, and as

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Speaker 3: when bats in the depth of an awful cave, flitter

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Speaker 3: and gibber when one of them has fallen out of

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Speaker 3: his place in the chain that the bats have formed

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Speaker 3: by holding one on another. So gibbering, they went their

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Speaker 3: way together, and Hermes, the kindly healer, led them along

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Speaker 3: down moldering pathways. They went along and passed the ocean

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Speaker 3: stream and the White Rock, and past the gates of

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Speaker 3: Helios the Sun, and the country of dreams, and presently

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Speaker 3: arrived in the meadow of Asphodel. This is the dwelling

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Speaker 3: place of souls, the images of dead men. Oh wow,

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Speaker 3: so here Hermes. And if you read older translations, this

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Speaker 3: is sometimes rendered as Mercury, but Hermes would be the

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Speaker 3: accurate name of the god. Here in the great context,

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Speaker 3: Hermes leads the powerless and bewildered souls of the dead

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Speaker 3: into Hades, into the land of the dead, kind of

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Speaker 3: like Batman with his bat summoning beacon. You know, I

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Speaker 3: remember that? Is is it?

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Speaker 1: In?

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Speaker 3: Batman begins that he like presses a button on something,

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Speaker 3: and it makes a big train of bats up here

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Speaker 3: and swirl down on it. Except, of course, the thing

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Speaker 3: that he uses to lead them is not technology. It

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Speaker 3: is the magical Wand again the Cadusius, the staff and

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Speaker 3: the suitors here are already dead. Their souls are being

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Speaker 3: guided to the next place in their journey. And importantly,

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Speaker 3: they need a guide because in this ancient Greek vision

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Speaker 3: of death, the souls of the dead are not They

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Speaker 3: don't go to the afterlife automatically, I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: in some visions of ancient Greek afterlife they do, but

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Speaker 3: here they really need a guide. And also, the souls

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Speaker 3: of the dead in this ancient Greek vision of the

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Speaker 3: afterlife are not elevated to a superhuman state of like

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Speaker 3: demi godhood, as we often imagine the ghosts of the

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Speaker 3: dead and modern media, you know, when you see like

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Speaker 3: movies and stuff today, it's almost like people imagine that

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Speaker 3: when someone dies they become a ghost or an angel,

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Speaker 3: and they become like a god, they gain extra powers,

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Speaker 3: they're semi omniscient, you know. The souls of the dead

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Speaker 3: are not like that. In the vision of Homer, these

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Speaker 3: souls are distinctly diminished. They're confused, frightened, and without much

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Speaker 3: strength or agency of their own. And that's why they're

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Speaker 3: described does gibbering like bats in a cave. They're just

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Speaker 3: you know, they're they're no longer even fully human. They're

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Speaker 3: just kind of like, you know, crying out in pain

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Speaker 3: and astonishment, and they don't know what to do. They

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Speaker 3: are like sheep in a flock, actually, and they need

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Speaker 3: a shepherd with the staff to guide them or they

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Speaker 3: will be lost. So that's a classic psychopomp. But by contrast,

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Speaker 3: reaper type figures usually appear before death to the living,

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Speaker 3: giving them a signal of impending doom.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and there are ultimately tons of examples we could

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Speaker 2: draw from here, and the one that I'm gonna mention

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Speaker 2: first is maybe not the best example because it's more

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Speaker 2: death adjacent than it is supposed to be actually death.

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Speaker 2: But I thought about it many times in the run

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Speaker 2: up to this episode. I was also just reminded of

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Speaker 2: it because the cadence in Homer kind of reminds me

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Speaker 2: of the cadence of what I'm going to read here.

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Speaker 2: This is, of course, just one tiny bit from the

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Speaker 2: Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner by Samuel Taylor Coleridge, and

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Speaker 2: it goes as follows, like one that on a lonesome

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Speaker 2: road doth walk in fear and dread, and having once

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Speaker 2: turned round, walks on and turns no more his head

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Speaker 2: because he knows a frightful fiend doth close behind him tread.

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Speaker 3: So in fact, here you don't even see it. You

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Speaker 3: just know it's there again, it's closing the distance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So it's this idea again. This is maybe

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Speaker 2: not death, this death adjacent Jason, a contemplation of fear.

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Speaker 2: We don't know, or at least I assume, we don't

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Speaker 2: know whether the teller here actually sees anything behind him

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Speaker 2: in this example, or he just feels that it is there.

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Speaker 2: And then feeling that is there, there's a certainty that

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Speaker 2: they are pursued, that they're hunted, and that it will

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Speaker 2: eventually catch up with them, and so what can they

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Speaker 2: do but just continue on in the state of anxious dread. Now,

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Speaker 2: there are a couple of more fun examples of a

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Speaker 2: clear grim Reaper character that you can find in the

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Speaker 2: writings of the Brothers. Grim Death's Messengers is one that's

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Speaker 2: pretty fun and ultimately has a punchline. One of the

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Speaker 2: things about the grim Reaper or any personification of death,

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Speaker 2: as I'll probably mention again, whenever there's a joke, generally

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Speaker 2: you are the punchline. That's just how Death's humor goes.

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Speaker 2: And that's pretty much what happens here. But in Death's Messengers,

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Speaker 2: a fun little story in which Death gets caught up

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Speaker 2: in a fight with a giant, like essentially the Grim

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Speaker 2: Reaper ends up fighting a giant and gets whooped by

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Speaker 2: the giant. Usually we think of personifications of death being

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Speaker 2: pretty powerful when it comes to mortals, and maybe even

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Speaker 2: like semi immortal characters. But here the giant just whips

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Speaker 2: Death leaves them, you know, laying next to a stone

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Speaker 2: on the side of the road or whatever. And then

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Speaker 2: a young man comes across Death, doesn't know that he's Death,

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Speaker 2: and says like, oh, here's a guy who needs my help.

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Speaker 2: I'll help him out. And we also come to understand

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Speaker 2: that this is necessary because if the longer Death is

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Speaker 2: out of action, the more Death cannot do his thing.

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Speaker 2: People are not going to die, the world's going to

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Speaker 2: become overrun, and so forth. Oh no, so, But the

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Speaker 2: young man knows nothing of this. He just helps him up,

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Speaker 2: and then Death asks the young man if he knows

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Speaker 2: who he is. The young man says, nope, no idea,

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Speaker 2: just trying to do a good deed, and Death says,

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Speaker 2: I am Death. I spare no one, nor can make

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Speaker 2: an exception with you, however, so you may see that

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Speaker 2: I am grateful. I promise you that I will not

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Speaker 2: attack you without warning, but instead I will send my

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Speaker 2: messagers to you before I come and take you away.

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Speaker 2: And then the twist is that after various bouts of illness,

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Speaker 2: death does come for the man, and he initially is like, whoaa,

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Speaker 2: whoa hold on? You promised me that you would send

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Speaker 2: messengers first. You wouldn't just come and swoop me up.

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Speaker 2: I would have some warning, and Death informs him, yes,

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Speaker 2: I did send you messengers, and he gives a list

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Speaker 2: of all these ailments that the man had suffered. He's like,

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Speaker 2: those were my messengers, and then the story ends with

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Speaker 2: the man did not know how to answer, so he

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Speaker 2: surrendered to his fate and went away with Death got him. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And there's another tale, Godfather Death, which involves Death being

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Speaker 2: named as the godfather of a child who then grows

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Speaker 2: up to become a famous physician because his godfather Death

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Speaker 2: shows him a special healing herb that grows in the

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Speaker 2: forest and also gives him this ability to see where

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Speaker 2: death stands in relation to an ill person. So if

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Speaker 2: he sees death at the head of the bed, of

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Speaker 2: the sick person is a bond, then he knows that

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Speaker 2: that individual can be cured with the magic herb. If

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Speaker 2: death stands at the foot of the bed, well, then

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Speaker 2: no cure is possible. Might as well pack it up.

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Speaker 2: But then the physician ends up exploiting this trick by

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Speaker 2: turning the bed around. And this works, you know, once

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Speaker 2: or twice, but he runs a foul of death in

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Speaker 2: the process.

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Speaker 3: Oh man, I thought that would be a good lesson

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Speaker 3: about correlation and causation.

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Speaker 2: But in both tales, death is mostly an executioner of

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Speaker 2: a decree. You know, He's there's a bit of the

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Speaker 2: psycho pomp there as well. In the first tale, death

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Speaker 2: says upon finding the main character again, he initially says,

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Speaker 2: follow me. The hour of your departure from this world

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Speaker 2: has come. So, you know, I guess we can tales

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Speaker 2: like this. We can kind of get into the details

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Speaker 2: of like, Okay, is he does he do something? Does

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Speaker 2: he actually have a scythe? And is he going to

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Speaker 2: swing that scythe and like sever something like sever you

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Speaker 2: from the mortal world? Is there a thread that needs

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Speaker 2: to be cut? Is there a soul that needs to

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Speaker 2: be like ripped out of the body Mortal Kombat style

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Speaker 2: or is it more of like, hey, I'm here, come

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Speaker 2: with me. Get in, dummy, We're off to the afterlife.

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Speaker 3: Well, rob, if you are ready, I was going to

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Speaker 3: talk about a few ideas about the archetypes of death

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Speaker 3: from studies in psychology from beginning in like the nineteen

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Speaker 3: sixties and seventies and coming up until recent years. Do

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Speaker 3: you want to jump into that, Let's do it. So

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Speaker 3: there's one concept I think we should start with before

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Speaker 3: we talk about anything else about archetypes of death in psychology,

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Speaker 3: because lots of psychology studies about the personification of death

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Speaker 3: refer back to the same foundational text, and that text

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Speaker 3: is a book from nineteen seventy two called The Psychology

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Speaker 3: of Death by Robert Castenbaum and Ruth Aisenberg. This was

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Speaker 3: a very important work in the academic study of how

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Speaker 3: we think and feel about death. But the idea that

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Speaker 3: gets repeated the most from it is this idea of

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Speaker 3: the four archetypes of death. So Castenbaum and Aisenberg set

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Speaker 3: out to investigate how Americans think about death when they

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Speaker 3: imagine it as a person or an entity, and they

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Speaker 3: use the following prompt in their initial sort of open

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Speaker 3: ended question and answer sessions. So they said, if death

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Speaker 3: were a person, what sort of a person would death be?

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Speaker 3: Think of this question until an image of death as

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Speaker 3: a human being forms in your mind. Then describe death physically,

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Speaker 3: what death would look like? Now, what would death be like?

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Speaker 3: What kind of personality would death have? And after comparing

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Speaker 3: a whole bunch of answers, And then after they did

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Speaker 3: the initial research with like open ended queries, they started

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Speaker 3: doing kind of consolidating these into categories and asking people

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Speaker 3: multiple choice questions. And the authors end up arguing that

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Speaker 3: most Americans' ideas about death fell into one of four

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Speaker 3: general categories, which they called the macabre, the gentle comforter,

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Speaker 3: the gay deceiver, and the automaton. So to briefly summarize

390
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Speaker 3: these archetypes, I'm going to draw from an updated edition

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Speaker 3: of The Psychology of Death published by Castenbaum in the

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Speaker 3: year two thousand. So the first one is the macab.

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Speaker 3: Castenbaum writes quote, the macab was characterized as a powerful, overwhelming,

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Speaker 3: and repulsive figure. The image often was of an emaciated

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Speaker 3: or decaying human, or of a monster with only faint

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Speaker 3: resemblance to human form. So a few characteristics of the Macab.

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Speaker 3: In terms of age and gender. When human in form,

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Speaker 3: the Macab was most often imagined as a hideous old man.

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Speaker 3: In terms of personality, the Macab is either callous and

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Speaker 3: unfeeling or actively sadistic, wanting to hurt you. People. I

401
00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 3: thought this was interesting. They reported feeling emotionally close to

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00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,439
Speaker 3: the Macab figure, but in a threatening way, not a

403
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 3: good emotional closeness, like you know this this thing knows me,

404
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 3: and it wants to hurt me.

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Speaker 2: It is a personal enemy.

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Speaker 3: Yes, And Castenbaum notes the irony that this death figure,

407
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Speaker 3: the most frightening of the four types, is the one

408
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 3: most often portrayed as a victim of death itself, being

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Speaker 3: either already dead like a skeleton, or in a partially

410
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,440
Speaker 3: decayed state, you know, having been consumed or partially consumed

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Speaker 3: by the force which it symbolizes. Which that's kind of interesting,

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Speaker 3: Like the scariest image of the thing is also a

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Speaker 3: victim of the thing.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting. I want this is kind of I mean,

415
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Speaker 2: this almost feels like an outrageous overstatement of the obvious

416
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Speaker 2: by virtue of how it is echoed through, especially like

417
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Speaker 2: fantasy media, like I instantly think of Warhammer forty thousand,

418
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Speaker 2: where you have like the gods of chaos and the

419
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Speaker 2: God of decay. Of course he and all his cronies

420
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 2: look like gross zombie creatures. Yeah, the blood God, you know,

421
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 2: he looks, you know, it's everything's bloody and violent and

422
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 2: snarling looking and so forth. You know, So we almost

423
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 2: take it for granted that the embodiment of the thing

424
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,200
Speaker 2: would look like victims of the thing. But yeah, when

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Speaker 2: you really stop and ask, well, why would that be,

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Speaker 2: And it's not certainly not always the case in you know,

427
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Speaker 2: human myth making, fantasy and so forth.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, especially since this is the version of death that

429
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Speaker 3: is an inflictor more so than certainly more so than

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Speaker 3: the next type we'll talk about. So, the second main

431
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 3: archetype is the gentle comforter. That's what they call this one.

432
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 3: In Castenbaum's words quote imbued with the theme of soothing welcome,

433
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 3: the gentle comforter is quiet, kindly, you know, it's all right,

434
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 3: you're coming home. Unlike the macabre, which was most often

435
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 3: a frightening old man, the gentle comforter seems to be

436
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 3: of any a your gender, though usually an adult and

437
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,679
Speaker 3: not a child. The comforter is All of the categories

438
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 3: are more often male than female, and that's true of

439
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 3: the Comforter as well, but the male bias is much

440
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: smaller in the Comforter category than in the macab It's

441
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 3: more mixed with gender representations. A commonly reported image is

442
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 3: that of Father Time, a soft spoken, grandfatherly figure with

443
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 3: a beard who eases your fears. Some people even There

444
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 3: are some reports that Castembaum includes where people identify identify

445
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 3: that the comforter figure with like biblical figures you know,

446
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 3: I don't know, you know, like Abraham or something you're imagining,

447
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 3: like a bearded figure from the Bible welcoming you.

448
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 2: Or Gandolf you know, Oh yeah sure.

449
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 3: And as with the macabre, people felt emotionally close to

450
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 3: the gentle comforter, but obviously without the threatening tones. It's

451
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 3: the opposite here. Both of these figures know me well,

452
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 3: but the macabre brings a personalized curse and the comforter

453
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:09,960
Speaker 3: brings a personal blessing. One woman in the research said quote,

454
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 3: his voice would be of an alluring nature, and although kind,

455
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 3: would hold the tone of the mysterious. Therefore, in general

456
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 3: he would be kind and understanding yet be very firm

457
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 3: and sure of his actions and attitudes. This passage, for

458
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 3: some reason, really hits something kind of like it touched

459
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 3: a deep intuition that I thought was mysterious and interesting.

460
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 3: So the figure is friendly and soothing, but also firm

461
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 3: and mysterious, like it's not going to be persuaded and

462
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 3: you don't understand it.

463
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: M yeah, yeah, the deep mystery of the incarnation. Yeah. This,

464
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 2: and of course all four of these types we're going

465
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,440
Speaker 2: to come back to again and again in subsequent episodes

466
00:26:55,480 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 2: as well. Of course, how can you not like the

467
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 2: the gentle comforter, the good cop, the bad cop good

468
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 2: cop scenario that we've looked at thus far. I mean,

469
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 2: this is clearly the one you want, and you know

470
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 2: so it should come as no surprise that poetic incarnations

471
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 2: of this are also very attractive. There is one, in

472
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,480
Speaker 2: particular in the poem when Lilac's last in the dooryard

473
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: bloomed by Walt Whitman, And I want to read a

474
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 2: couple of lines from that here, because I found this

475
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: quite enchanting. Dark mother, always gliding near with soft feet,

476
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 2: have none chanted for thee a chant of fullest welcome.

477
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 2: Then I chanted for THEE. I glorify THEE above all.

478
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,440
Speaker 2: I bring THEE a song that, when thou must indeed come,

479
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 2: come unfalteringly approach strong deliveries. When it is so, when

480
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: thou hast taken them, I joyously sing the dead lost

481
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 2: in the loving, floating ocean of THEE, laved in the

482
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 2: flood of thy bliss o death. That's great. That's that's

483
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: how everyone would want it to.

484
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 3: Be, I think, certainly most. And it turns out that

485
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 3: the gentle comforter image is the most common across all types,

486
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 3: so it's the one people imagine the most often.

487
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 2: Though, of course, as we're going to continue to get

488
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: into here, it's not like you really necessarily get to choose,

489
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 2: like various ideas are you were exposed to via your culture,

490
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,400
Speaker 2: via media, and then it's going to be also informed

491
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 2: by how you feel about death as a personal concept,

492
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 2: as a larger concept in the world, and so forth right.

493
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 3: Okay, So the next category is what they call the

494
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 3: gay deceiver. And note that gay here doesn't have anything

495
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 3: to do with sexual orientation. This is the older usage

496
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 3: meaning like jolly you're happy, So, as the name implies,

497
00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 3: this is a jolly trickster somebody who embodies tempt Haitian seduction, danger,

498
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 3: I think fun, and fatal irony. This figure is usually

499
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 3: depicted as an attractive, elegant, and sophisticated middle aged adult

500
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 3: or young adult of any sex, most often actually described

501
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,640
Speaker 3: as just a few years older than the person doing

502
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,959
Speaker 3: the imagining, and usually but not always, the opposite sex

503
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 3: of the person imagining. So the deceiver here, they tempt

504
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 3: their victim with pleasures, with excitement, pleasure, and adventure. And

505
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 3: from a lot of the descriptions I'm reading here, I

506
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 3: get notes of what'st thou like a taste of butter,

507
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 3: So the trickster. One key thing about this figure is

508
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 3: that people think of it as something that is first

509
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 3: seen one way and then revealed to be another way.

510
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 3: So you think of it first as one type of being,

511
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 3: but then later there's an iron You find out who

512
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 3: they really are only once it's too late, usually after

513
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 3: your death is sealed. And so this death archetype shares

514
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 3: a lot in common actually with literary depictions of the

515
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:18,280
Speaker 3: Christian devil, you know, glamorous, powerful, irresistible, and dangerous when

516
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 3: imagined as a man. Some respondents mention a goateee and

517
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 3: a dark suit, very devil imagery when imagined as a

518
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 3: woman often thought to be tall and beautiful with long

519
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 3: dark hair and Castenbaum says interestingly that this archetype often

520
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 3: involves elements both of ego ideal meaning an idealized version

521
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 3: of the self, but also of scammer or con artist.

522
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 3: And obviously you can see how this version of death

523
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 3: as a tempter and as a deceiver taps into ideas

524
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 3: you find in Christian morality plays about how temptations to

525
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 3: the pleasures of the flow, temptations to adventure and lust

526
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 3: and greed will ultimately lead to one's destruction.

527
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 2: I'm reminded that this variation of death and its feminine

528
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 2: form was often invoked on wartime anti std propaganda. Yes,

529
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: where you know, there'd be some depiction of the alluring

530
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: feminine form. Yeah, but there would be a skull face,

531
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 2: you know, that sort of thing, or the mass slips

532
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 2: away and it's a skull there. A skull is somehow

533
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: revealed in the scenario, that sort of thing, and of

534
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: course that ties into you know, the whole subject of

535
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 2: the monstrous feminine is depicted as well the.

536
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 3: Other way around. I think of a softer version of

537
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 3: the deceiver here as the death in Emily Dickinson's because

538
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 3: I could not stop for death, he kindly stopped for

539
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 3: me where. You know, it's subtle in the poem, but

540
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 3: I think he is depicted as kind of like a

541
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 3: handsome suitor there, like he's coming to show you a

542
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 3: good time, but we all know where it's going to

543
00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 3: end up.

544
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, coming back to the fun of the scenario,

545
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 2: the joke. Even I am reminded that if death is

546
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 2: telling a joke, you're probably the punchline. So I guess

547
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 2: that's that's one of the that seems to be one

548
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: of the take comes here, is that the fun being

549
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: had is not necessarily yours or a fun has had.

550
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 2: Maybe it is in the short term, but not in

551
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 2: the long Yeah.

552
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 3: That's the setup. And then the punchline is dead.

553
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 2: Yeah.

554
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. And so those are the first three categories. You

555
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 3: got the macabre, the comforter, the deceiver, and then finally

556
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 3: what Castenbaum and Aisenberg called the automaton. Castenbaum writes, quote,

557
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 3: the automaton may be a class in a class by itself.

558
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 3: The image of death as an objective, unfeeling instrument in

559
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 3: human guys, The automaton looks like a normal person but

560
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 3: lacks human qualities. Unlike other personifications, he usually a male,

561
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 3: does not establish a huge human relationship of any kind. So,

562
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 3: unlike the first two categories, which both of which were

563
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 3: understood to be emotionally close to the dying person, the

564
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 3: automaton is not understood as emotionally close at all. Quite

565
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 3: the opposite caston Maulmin goes on. He advances with neither

566
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 3: diabolical pleasure nor gentle compassion, but as an automatic, soulless apparatus.

567
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 2: So yeah.

568
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,720
Speaker 3: Again, unlike the macabre, which is emotionally close and threatening,

569
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 3: unlike the comforter, who is emotionally close and soothing, the

570
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 3: automaton does not have any identification with the dying person

571
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 3: at all. At the automaton acts at a remove. He

572
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 3: does not have a meaningful relationship with you. He does

573
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 3: not have feelings about what is happening.

574
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 2: He can't be stopped, he can't be bargained with. Yeah. Yeah,

575
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 2: so he's the terminator. But he's also kind of a bureaucrat, right,

576
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: or like a civil officer. Yeah, you know, this is

577
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,479
Speaker 2: not personal, This is just the job. Take no pleasure

578
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 2: in it, but it also doesn't really bother.

579
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 3: Me facilitating an unstoppable process. Yeah. So a few general

580
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 3: findings from cast Enbaum and Aisenberg. I think I already

581
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 3: mentioned this, but of the four types in their original research,

582
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 3: the gentle comforter was the most common. They say, across

583
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 3: all categories, death is more often imagined as male than female.

584
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 3: All four categories show male bias, but the male bias

585
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 3: is strongest in the macabre and the automaton. Those are

586
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 3: the most often thought of as male. The comforter is

587
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 3: still male biased, but more mixed. The deceiver is mixed,

588
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 3: often the opposite sex of the dying person. And then

589
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 3: this is interesting, weird little detail. Castenbaum says, quote for

590
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 3: what it might be worth, funeral directors and students of

591
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 3: mortuary sciences, where the subsamples with by far the highest

592
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 3: personage of no personifications encountering some type of inner resistance

593
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,280
Speaker 3: to a task most others did not find very difficult.

594
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 3: So you know, you ask people to sit down imagine

595
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 3: death as a person. Most people can play this game.

596
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 3: They can play along and say, yeah, here's what I

597
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 3: think they would be like. For some reason, people in

598
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 3: these professional classes, you know, professional training or professional services

599
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 3: around death. They just resisted this task. They were more

600
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 3: likely to say, I can't come up with the personification.

601
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 3: I'm not going to do it.

602
00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 2: That is fascinating, you know, like, what does it say

603
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 2: about proximity to the physical realities of death in the

604
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: you know, in the generation or contemplation of these concepts,

605
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 2: because we obviously put a lot of energy into distancing

606
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,320
Speaker 2: ourselves from the sort of experience of physical death that

607
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 2: mortuary professionals and in various other professionals experience. So I wonder, like,

608
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 2: do we on some level tend mystified death and the

609
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 2: departed in removing ourselves from that physical reality? And granted,

610
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 2: you know, we have to acknowledge that in much of

611
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,439
Speaker 2: the modern world we are able to remove ourselves from

612
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 2: that physical reality of death and dying in ways that

613
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: people in different times and even in different places cannot do.

614
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 2: So it's you run into the problem of being too

615
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 2: universal across time and space with this sort of pondering.

616
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 2: But I mean, I mean, it's there in the finding though.

617
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 2: You know, the question is anyway you know that these

618
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 2: people who's day in, day out is dealing with the

619
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 2: reality of death and the physical reality of death find

620
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,120
Speaker 2: it much harder to say, oh, yeah, here's a sketch

621
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 2: of what death looks like. This is the personification of

622
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 2: this individual entity that carries this out.

623
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, and as you, I think we're just alluding to

624
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 3: it is really worth noting that these archetypes are not

625
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 3: proposed to be either culturally unif versal nor necessarily stable

626
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 3: across time. I think a key finding in death psychology

627
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,000
Speaker 3: is that the personification of death, while it might possess

628
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,280
Speaker 3: a few characteristics that are kind of common across culture

629
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: and time, is mostly pretty variable and is going to

630
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 3: be informed by shifting changes in how the culture portrays

631
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 3: and processes death, and also by just more obscure factors.

632
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 3: In a lot of cases, is going to be hard

633
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 3: to understand why people at a certain time and place

634
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 3: think about death the way they do. It's just a

635
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 3: lot of cultural input on that. Anyway, I wanted to

636
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 3: mention a few more things from Castenbaum's book here, so

637
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 3: Castendam cites the work of a different researcher named Richard

638
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 3: Linnetto in nineteen eighty two, who compared personifications of death

639
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 3: to levels of death anxiety thought this was interesting, and

640
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 3: Linetto found that the people with the highest levels of

641
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 3: anxiety about death were tended to be among women who

642
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:16,800
Speaker 3: personified death as a woman. That's interesting, I don't know why. Meanwhile,

643
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 3: men who imagined death as a man were the most

644
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 3: afraid of thinking about the following things, the sight of

645
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 3: a dead body, the prospect of another world war, and

646
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 3: the shortness of human life. With all of these correlations

647
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 3: I just mentioned, it's hard to know if there's really

648
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 3: any significance, but interesting. Linetto also found that people who

649
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 3: were most focused on the shortness of human life and

650
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 3: the quick passage of time were the least likely to

651
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 3: picture a gentle comforter and the most likely to picture

652
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 3: the macabre, you know, the grim, horrifying vision of death.

653
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:00,040
Speaker 3: I thought that was interesting because while I personally I

654
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 3: don't usually think about death as a as a personified

655
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:08,359
Speaker 3: figure much. I I found this personally relevant because I

656
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 3: so often find my life defined by time anxiety. I mean,

657
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 3: it's like, I feel like it's the main struggle in

658
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 3: my life is just always thinking about there not being

659
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 3: enough time to do the things I need to do.

660
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:21,760
Speaker 3: And yeah, I wonder if that that makes me especially

661
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 3: prone to thinking of death as a monster.

662
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,439
Speaker 2: Huh. Yeah, this is fascinating to think about. No one

663
00:39:28,320 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: ever came up to me and asked me to draw

664
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 2: a picture of what I think death looks like. And

665
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 2: and I don't think I ever really gay. I get

666
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 2: I'm you know, morbid enough that I've always been fascinated

667
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 2: by depictions of death and you know, visual and you know,

668
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 2: in literature and film and and in various mythological treatments.

669
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 2: But you know, it wasn't until recently that I really

670
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 2: created I think we're created or chose or you know,

671
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 2: had it thrust upon me, that there would be like

672
00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 2: more or less a concrete idea of what it is is,

673
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 2: you know, I would say that I yeah, I felt,

674
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 2: I felt, I felt a fair amount of time anxiety

675
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 2: of late as well. You know, the shortness of human

676
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 2: life and the threat of greater wars are also both

677
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 2: things that weigh on me all the time, you know,

678
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 2: much like the people in this of the study. But

679
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, I wouldn't say that I ever strongly

680
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: associated the idea of death with the personification. I'd say

681
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 2: maybe growing up, you know, in in in a Protestant

682
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 2: church environment, and being exposed to various you know, works

683
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 2: from you know, from from the Western catalog of art,

684
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 2: you would, you know, you'd see images of like an

685
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: Angel of Death, you know, be they classical or something

686
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 2: more recent. And so I think I had maybe a

687
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 2: vision of that in my mind, like maybe a vision

688
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 2: that maybe maybe leans slightly more masculine and kind of

689
00:40:55,400 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: wavered between automaton and gentle comforter, and more recently I

690
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 2: think I've gravitated towards more of a gentle comforter, but

691
00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 2: maybe at times with a little bit of the gay

692
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 2: deceiver thrown in there as well. So I think maybe

693
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 2: more feminine in my mind now, maybe more comforting, but

694
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 2: also like sometimes wondering if there's a bit of a

695
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 2: sly smile there, you know, that there's a joke at play,

696
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 2: and again with all death jokes, you're the punchline.

697
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, I like the idea that a

698
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 3: comforter could still have a sense of irony or a

699
00:41:28,760 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 3: sense of humor about what's happening, even if it's at

700
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:32,280
Speaker 3: my expense.

701
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 2: I mean, well, that's one of the great things about

702
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 2: Pratchett's death in the Discworld books is that he has

703
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: a very dry humor about everything. So yeah, I don't know,

704
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 2: of course, do you want that kind of personal service

705
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: if death were to come calling. I'm not sure, but

706
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 2: it can be pretty amusing in our literature.

707
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 3: But I find myself often really put at ease if

708
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 3: a person who I do understand is genuinely sympathetic can

709
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 3: still make a joke at the expense of my suffering.

710
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 2: I suppose it's also worth reminding ourselves in all of

711
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 2: this that, I mean, we're all capable of holding multiple,

712
00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:16,719
Speaker 2: even contradictory ideas about reality and unreality, and of course

713
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 2: our views on such big concepts as death can also

714
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 2: shift over time, so you know, there doesn't necessarily need

715
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 2: to be you know, one version of death. If you

716
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 2: were to personify it and draw it down on a

717
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 2: piece of paper, death might look a little different if

718
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 2: you're setting in your study, or if you were, you know,

719
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 2: waiting in in the waiting room at a hospice. You

720
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 2: know there's going to be perhaps different mindsets in play.

721
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally Also worth noting that Linetto as well as

722
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 3: other researchers, have generally found that the more quote favorable

723
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 3: personifications of death, and I think this would mainly be

724
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:58,879
Speaker 3: the gentle comforter are associated with lower levels of death anxiety.

725
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 3: But in interessting question is which way does the causality

726
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,399
Speaker 3: run there? So does imagining death as a comforter make

727
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,520
Speaker 3: you less afraid of death? Or does being less afraid

728
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:16,439
Speaker 3: of death make you imagine a comforter. Another variation is

729
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 3: that Linetto found that the deceiver archetype was not associated

730
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 3: with lower death anxiety, even though this archetype is attractive

731
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 3: and seductive. So you might think at one level favorable.

732
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 3: I think there's just like people have enough cognitive aw

733
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 3: awareness of like the danger and irony wrapped up in

734
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 3: this personification to maybe treat it more like they treat

735
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 3: the other less favorable forms. So one more thing we've

736
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:50,240
Speaker 3: alluded to several times, how these trends in death personification

737
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,760
Speaker 3: can change over time. They're clearly not just like fixed

738
00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 3: in the human animal. You know, they're culturally variable and

739
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 3: they change. So in the two thousand an edition of

740
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 3: the book, Castenbaum mentions that he did some research with

741
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,000
Speaker 3: colleagues in the late nineteen nineties to see if anything

742
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 3: had changed about how people personified death since his original

743
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:15,760
Speaker 3: work in the sixties and seventies, and this is Castenbaum

744
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 3: and Hermann nineteen ninety seven if you want to look

745
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 3: up the paper. But the main changes he identify have

746
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 3: to do with gender breakdown in personification. He says that

747
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,439
Speaker 3: by the time of nineteen ninety seven, there had, for

748
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 3: some reason been a sharp increase in the number of

749
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 3: women who personify death as a woman. So there's there's still,

750
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 3: you know, a male bias in how people represent death

751
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,440
Speaker 3: in their minds, but more women personified death as a

752
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 3: woman by the late nineties. Also, there were some changes

753
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:53,720
Speaker 3: in the type of personality attributed to death. The gentle

754
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 3: comforter is still the most common type of death figure

755
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:00,120
Speaker 3: imagined by women and the most common overall, but there

756
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 3: was a significant decrease in the percentage of men who

757
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,839
Speaker 3: imagined a comforter. By nineteen ninety seven, men had come

758
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,160
Speaker 3: more often to see death as a cold and remote person,

759
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 3: the automaton, or as grim and terrifying the macabre. The

760
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 3: author is also found that the average age of death

761
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 3: personified had decreased. That's kind of interesting, So, you know,

762
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 3: we used to be more likely on average to picture

763
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 3: death as a person of advanced age. The average age

764
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 3: people imagine has gone down.

765
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 2: Okay, so death has gotten younger and younger.

766
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting trends. Kind of hard to even speculate

767
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 3: about what might account for some of these changes, but obviously,

768
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,600
Speaker 3: you know, so many factors feeding into our imaginative tendencies here.

769
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 3: I think it would be kind of hopeless to just

770
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 3: like pick one cultural change and say that's what caused it.

771
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:01,160
Speaker 3: But despite variability across time and culture, do think these

772
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,719
Speaker 3: categories are useful to talk about because, for one thing,

773
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 3: it seems they remain very relevant, at least within an

774
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:12,239
Speaker 3: American cultural context, and they give us a scaffolding to

775
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,400
Speaker 3: talk about other findings in death personification. So with that

776
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 3: in the background, Rob, if you're cool with it, I

777
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 3: wanted to run through a couple of twenty first century

778
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:24,320
Speaker 3: research papers I turned up which I thought were intriguing.

779
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 3: Let's do it, Okay, So the first one is I

780
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 3: dug up a paper from two thousand and eight by

781
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:34,880
Speaker 3: Jonathan Bassett, Polly McCann, and Kelly Kate, published in a

782
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 3: journal called Omega Journal of Death and Dying. The paper

783
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 3: was called Personifications of Personal and Typical Death as related

784
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 3: to Death Attitudes. So This was a simple imagination exercise

785
00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 3: done with a relatively small group of university students, so

786
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 3: this is not like a hugely powerful study. I wouldn't

787
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 3: place a ton of weight on the results, but what

788
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,240
Speaker 3: they found was interesting to me because it was counterintuitive.

789
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:06,280
Speaker 3: So to read from their description of their research here, quote,

790
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:10,880
Speaker 3: ninety eight students enrolled in psychology classes were randomly assigned

791
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 3: to personified death as a character in a movie, depicting

792
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 3: either their own deathbed scene or the deathbed scene of

793
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 3: the typical person. And then after this, the students completed

794
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 3: an updated version of a standard inventory called the Death

795
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:34,240
Speaker 3: Attitude Profile. So this idea of comparing personifications of one's

796
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:38,759
Speaker 3: own death versus death in general or the deaths of

797
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 3: others is interesting because obviously death is a highly emotional

798
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 3: and frightening subject for lots of people, and I think

799
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 3: there's a good chance that variations in how we think

800
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 3: about it would depend on the question is it my

801
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:55,800
Speaker 3: own death we're talking about?

802
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 2: Yeah?

803
00:47:56,719 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 3: For example, you might guess that on average, people imagine

804
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:05,319
Speaker 3: a more frightening or unsettling type of entity representing their

805
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 3: own death than they do representing the deaths of others,

806
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 3: because Obviously, people tend to be more afraid of their

807
00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 3: own death, but interestingly, that is not what the researchers

808
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 3: found in this experiment. So the authors did not use

809
00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 3: exactly the same four categories as Casten, Bauman Aisenberg. Instead,

810
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 3: they used a system that was like sort of three

811
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 3: for four the same. So you had the option to

812
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,720
Speaker 3: imagine death as a cold or remote sort of person,

813
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 3: a gentle, well meaning type of person that's sort of

814
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 3: the comforter, a grim terrifying type of person that's sort

815
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 3: of the macabre, and then a robot like person. So

816
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,759
Speaker 3: it seems like we've split the automaton category into these

817
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 3: options of a cold or remote person and a robot

818
00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 3: like person.

819
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've kind of ejected the trickster from the scenario.

820
00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think in general I hesitate to say

821
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 3: this because I didn't fully check this, but my impression

822
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 3: from reading summaries of the older research is that the

823
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:10,879
Speaker 3: deceiver or trickster archetype was the least common of the four,

824
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:15,480
Speaker 3: but you know, did still show up as a common strain,

825
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 3: so it was worth exploring. So they said that in

826
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 3: their sample, relatively few people chose the grim terrifying image

827
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 3: or the robot like image. The most popular were the cold,

828
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 3: remote sort of person and the gentle, well meaning sort

829
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:36,480
Speaker 3: of person. And in fact, something kind of the opposite

830
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 3: of what I just hypothesized off the cuff a minute

831
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 3: ago is what they found. When asked to imagine another

832
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 3: person's death, subjects were relatively more likely to picture the cold,

833
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 3: remote figure. When asked to imagine their own death, they

834
00:49:52,640 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 3: were relatively more likely to imagine the gentle comforter. Huh,

835
00:49:57,160 --> 00:50:00,040
Speaker 3: and the author is refer to previous work by a

836
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 3: researcher named Tomer. Writing in their conclusion quote. These findings

837
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,359
Speaker 3: seem to support Tomer's position that it is easier to

838
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 3: face death with stoic resignation when thinking about the inevitability

839
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 3: of other people's death as part of the natural order

840
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 3: of things than when contemplating one's own mortality.

841
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 2: Okay, well that absolutely tracks right, Yeah, yeah, totally yeah, yeah,

842
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 2: someone else must die. Well, it's the cycle of life.

843
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 2: I must die. Hold on a minute, I need a bargain.

844
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it flips the script of just how I

845
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,959
Speaker 3: imagine what the death personification is doing? Does this make sense?

846
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 2: So?

847
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 3: H the way I might interpret this experiment assuming Again,

848
00:50:41,239 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 3: you know, this was a relatively small study, so assuming

849
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 3: this kind of thing holds up broadly, I would interpret

850
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 3: this as finding support for the idea that the way

851
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:54,480
Speaker 3: we picture death as a person often says more about

852
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:57,400
Speaker 3: what we need than about what we fear.

853
00:50:58,440 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 2: Uh.

854
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,839
Speaker 3: And obviously both pathways can manifest you know, fear is

855
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:06,920
Speaker 3: clearly there sometimes, Like for example, I would assume most

856
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 3: people who imagine the grim, terrifying, macabre figure are doing

857
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 3: so as a manifestation of fear unresolved fears of some kind,

858
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 3: rather than as a coping strategy. Thinking about the skeleton

859
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,720
Speaker 3: with the side is probably not like helping you feel

860
00:51:22,760 --> 00:51:25,000
Speaker 3: better about death in some way. I mean, it might

861
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,240
Speaker 3: be you could imagine some ways a person might need

862
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 3: to think of a threatened, threatening, terrifying figure, like, oh,

863
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe if like the person feels they

864
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 3: need to be punished in some way. But I would

865
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 3: think this is a relatively rare way it works.

866
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 2: Or they know deep down that they are a terrible

867
00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 2: boss and they've been bad at Christmas their whole life.

868
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but the image of the gentle comforter

869
00:51:47,880 --> 00:51:53,000
Speaker 3: obviously does serve a psychological need. It makes death less frightening,

870
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 3: to give it a body, and to imagine that body

871
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:01,839
Speaker 3: as belonging to a kind, wisely helper who delivers you

872
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 3: from pain. So if the comforter comes to mind more

873
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 3: naturally when we think of our own death versus when

874
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 3: we think of the deaths of others, that makes me

875
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 3: think that the base level function of the personification of

876
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 3: death might be more as a psychological defense mechanism that

877
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 3: provides us comfort and puts our fears to rest, rather

878
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 3: than doing something else. And I really want to emphasize

879
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 3: I mean, when you approach it that way, that sounds

880
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 3: kind of obvious, but I would say it doesn't have

881
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 3: to be this way. I would not say that providing

882
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 3: comfort is the default reason we conjure visionary or imaginary

883
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:48,399
Speaker 3: figures in our mind. For example, I think if there

884
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 3: is a default assumption about the evolutionary reason we imagine monsters,

885
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 3: it is probably specifically to amplify fears so that we

886
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:03,240
Speaker 3: act more defensively and take vigorous steps to avoid danger.

887
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 3: Like the imagination I think usually works to make your

888
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,959
Speaker 3: fears of the unseen and the unknown more vivid, more

889
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:16,200
Speaker 3: powerful and motivating, so as to you know to guide

890
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 3: you away from danger. It's not supposed to make you

891
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 3: feel like death is going to be okay, but when

892
00:53:22,800 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 3: at least, you know, modern Americans in these experiments think

893
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 3: about the abstract idea of their own future death as

894
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 3: opposed to the deaths of others, the imagination does the opposite.

895
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 3: It soothes, it provides comfort, It says it's going to

896
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 3: be okay, and you know, you could It would be

897
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 3: really interesting if you could like compare this to you know,

898
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 3: ancient history or something like. I wonder if this is

899
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 3: a historically contingent fact based on the expectation that it's

900
00:53:55,640 --> 00:54:00,720
Speaker 3: now normal in industrialized societies to live to old age

901
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,759
Speaker 3: and die from one of a handful of chronic diseases,

902
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 3: as opposed to there being like a high likelihood that

903
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,920
Speaker 3: you die an unexpected sudden death at an early age

904
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 3: from unexpected you know, from contagious disease or violence.

905
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 2: Hmmm hmm. Yeah, that'll be that maybe a question we'll

906
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 2: have to carry with us into the next few episodes. Yeah, oh,

907
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 2: if not through life itself. Yeah.

908
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 3: Also, just wanted to flag this is not particularly relevant

909
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,120
Speaker 3: to the studying question, but in the background section of

910
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 3: this one, the authors flag a nineteen ninety six paper

911
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 3: in the journal Death Studies by Mara E. Tam which

912
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 3: it surveyed a sample of Swedish healthcare workers to figure

913
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:57,360
Speaker 3: out if there were any other common time and place

914
00:54:57,480 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 3: associations with the personified figure of death, and Tam found

915
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 3: that death was most often pictured as a man, consistent

916
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:11,280
Speaker 3: theme wearing dark clothing, associated with rural areas, the season

917
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 3: of autumn, and the evening time. So I'm thinking, wow,

918
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 3: death is it's going trick or treating?

919
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:22,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, kind of an old timey Halloween figure. I

920
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 2: don't know. I mean, we also associate autumn with things

921
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 2: going away, so it makes sense. Yeah, yeah, but autumn

922
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 2: is also kind of comfy as opposed to, like, like

923
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 2: a cold the idea of like a cold winter death,

924
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 2: I guess a cold winter reaper.

925
00:55:37,080 --> 00:55:38,879
Speaker 3: Well, so what do you think about this idea that,

926
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:44,000
Speaker 3: as opposed to other imaginative impulses we have, which might

927
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 3: be more often to amplify fears and cause us to

928
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 3: act defensively, that for some reason, imagination, when applied to

929
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 3: the concept of death, causes us to do the opposite.

930
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 3: It conjures up comforting images that make it feel like

931
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 3: it's going to be. Okay. That does seem kind of

932
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 3: an interesting difference, you know.

933
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a coping method, perhaps because I mean

934
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 2: there are no guarantees on any of this, right, yeah.

935
00:56:12,120 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 2: But it's like when you if you pick up a

936
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 2: copy of the album Sabbath Bloody Sabbath, like which which

937
00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 2: deathbed do you pick for yourself? And you know you

938
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 2: instantly are gonna you may, I don't know, depending on

939
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:26,239
Speaker 2: your worldview, you may flip over to the back and say, well,

940
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,480
Speaker 2: the peaceful one, that's that's mine, Maybe not so much

941
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:33,800
Speaker 2: the the hellish one on the front, the debauchery. But

942
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 2: you know, unless unless that's more your thing.

943
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 3: Did I ever tell you about how so? My you know,

944
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 3: three year old likes Black Sabbath and she used to

945
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,319
Speaker 3: ask to listen to that album by calling it the

946
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 3: bedtime record, bedtime record that's got a guy in bed.

947
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah it is, it's bed time. Do you keep it?

948
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:54,319
Speaker 2: Which side do you keep displayed out? There's like an

949
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 2: album that you have out and you have like one

950
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:56,839
Speaker 2: side facing.

951
00:56:57,440 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 3: It's usually on the shelf. Well sometimes when it would

952
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 3: be I don't know, you'd see it both ways.

953
00:57:02,360 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 2: Okay, that's the beauty of the album design. Right to

954
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 2: back up to something we were talking about earlier. We're

955
00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 2: talking about the Deceiver or the gay deceiver, and I

956
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 2: was kind of there was something like there was a

957
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,200
Speaker 2: there was an itch that I couldn't quite scratch us,

958
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 2: like this is reminding me of something in particular, and

959
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 2: it brings to mind the love song of Jay Alfred

960
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 2: Proofrock or one line from it from T. S. Eliot,

961
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 2: and that is, of course I have seen the Eternal

962
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 2: Footman hold my coat and snicker and short, I was

963
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 2: afraid the Eternal Footman is of course death. And I've

964
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 2: got back on that line before, like why is why

965
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,479
Speaker 2: is death snickering? What does he why does he find

966
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,439
Speaker 2: this funny? Like it's clearly at my expense against again

967
00:57:44,480 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 2: I am the punchline. Yeah, So I thought back to

968
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 2: that line.

969
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 3: I mean, he watched you try to eat that peach,

970
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 3: and he knows what's coming while you're eating peaches and

971
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 3: you're not even thinking about it.

972
00:57:57,160 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 2: There's some other underlying psychological issues going on clearly with

973
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 2: mister Proufrock.

974
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 3: So one last study I wanted to mention before we

975
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 3: wrap things up for part one here was published in

976
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 3: the same journal as the last one. This is the

977
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 3: journal Omega Journal of Death and Dying. This paper was

978
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:20,960
Speaker 3: by a psychologist named Young Gen Kong who is affiliated

979
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 3: with New Mexico State University, and it's called Personification of Death.

980
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 3: What types of death are personified by macab gentle, comforter, gay, deceiver,

981
00:58:31,600 --> 00:58:36,720
Speaker 3: and automaton. This was twenty twenty one. The core idea

982
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 3: in this paper is a further exploration of Castenbaum and

983
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:46,680
Speaker 3: Aisenberg's for archetypes, but asking the question what specific aspects

984
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 3: of the death of the death experience can be attributed

985
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 3: to each of these four personifications. In other words, do

986
00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 3: specific types of death and circumstances of death make us

987
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 3: think of different death figures? And a few interesting trends

988
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 3: and results. Cong says that people were most likely to

989
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 3: imagine the macabre figure when thinking about murder, which occurs

990
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 3: outside the home. That's kind of not surprising.

991
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense again thinking back to the hunter,

992
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 2: the killer, it is one that pursues us and singles

993
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 2: us out.

994
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:27,920
Speaker 3: The comforter was most associated with peaceful death in old

995
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:33,200
Speaker 3: age taking place at home. Again, not very surprising there,

996
00:59:33,240 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 3: But I thought the next two were a little more interesting.

997
00:59:36,120 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 3: The deceiver, the gay deceiver was most associated with death

998
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 3: by heart attack. Wow uh, whereas the automaton was most

999
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 3: associated with death from cancer occurring in a hospital. And

1000
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 3: so a few things about this. I was thinking about

1001
00:59:54,880 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 3: the deceiver, the association between the deceiver and the heart attack.

1002
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 3: I can't you know the reason obviously why people would

1003
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 3: have this association, But I wonder if this has anything

1004
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 3: to do with the idea that people think of a

1005
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 3: heart attack as a surprise. It is something that happens

1006
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:16,560
Speaker 3: suddenly and without warning. It's like a trick on you,

1007
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 3: but also something that is thought to be associated with

1008
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 3: lifestyle and life history. Like I'm not saying this is

1009
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 3: the right way to conceptualize cardiovascular health, but people do

1010
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 3: think about it this way. Like you were tempted by

1011
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 3: a lifetime of pleasures from you know, Scotch and methamphetamine

1012
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 3: and French fries, and then the devil sneaks up, yeah

1013
01:00:39,720 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 3: and stabs you in the back. It's like, you did

1014
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 3: those things, they were fun, and now the heart attack

1015
01:00:44,400 --> 01:00:44,800
Speaker 3: is coming.

1016
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 2: What a cruel trick you played on me? That thought

1017
01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 2: those were good for me? Yeah, yeah, I guess. So

1018
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 2: it really feels like, this is a category that would

1019
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 2: at least historically be more easily associated with something like

1020
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:07,320
Speaker 2: siff less, you know, in in previous centuries obviously, you know,

1021
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 2: or some other you know, sexually transmitted ailment that might

1022
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:15,520
Speaker 2: have a lot of morality issues attached to it, that

1023
01:01:15,680 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 2: sort of thing. And I likewise, I was a little

1024
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 2: surprised by the automaton. I mean, on one level, not

1025
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:25,320
Speaker 2: like you know, when when deaths from cancer occur in

1026
01:01:25,360 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 2: a hospital environment, you know, it's there is that sense

1027
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:31,160
Speaker 2: of like this is very procedural, and things have are

1028
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 2: being done, and there's kind of like a back and

1029
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:35,600
Speaker 2: forth and we know where it is going and then

1030
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 2: we reach eventually reached that place. But at the same time,

1031
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 2: I mean, cancer often does feel like a cruel, cosmic joke,

1032
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 2: and I don't know, it seems like that would be

1033
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:48,240
Speaker 2: more the deceivers doing. But you know, they could also

1034
01:01:48,280 --> 01:01:51,919
Speaker 2: be me slightly misunderstanding the classifications here.

1035
01:01:52,120 --> 01:01:55,600
Speaker 3: Well, I would say with the automaton, it is interesting,

1036
01:01:57,800 --> 01:01:59,880
Speaker 3: you know, the idea of death in a hospital some

1037
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 3: that takes place in a medicalized context. It involves technology.

1038
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 3: There are stages and steps of what is happening that

1039
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 3: people might feel are better understood by the dissociated professionals

1040
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 3: around them than by the person to whom this death

1041
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 3: means the most, the person themselves and to their family members.

1042
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:28,080
Speaker 3: Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah, yeah, people who this

1043
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 3: matters less to have a better understanding of what's going

1044
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 3: on because they've seen this process a million times.

1045
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I could imagine too, We're coming back to

1046
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 2: what we were talking about earlier with proximity to death

1047
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 2: and the idea that funeral directors and people in the

1048
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 2: mortuary industry may be less inclined to personify death in general.

1049
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 2: You could imagine that, like this is a place where,

1050
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:54,000
Speaker 2: you know, death is very close and people deal with

1051
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 2: it every day, and yeah, there is maybe like an

1052
01:02:56,240 --> 01:02:59,040
Speaker 2: increased awareness of what it is and you know, and

1053
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 2: where we stand in really to it. So maybe it

1054
01:03:01,080 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 2: does demystify it and to to a point anyway, So

1055
01:03:05,040 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 2: maybe it doesn't completely erase the figure, Like there a

1056
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:12,240
Speaker 2: silhouette remains, but it is this automaton silhouette and it's

1057
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 2: not it's not personal. It is just it's destiny. Yeah.

1058
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,840
Speaker 2: Another way I was thinking about the trickster idea though,

1059
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 2: is the deceiver? Is that all you really need is

1060
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:29,440
Speaker 2: just an idea that it's kind of your fault. You

1061
01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 2: know that you were you know that you were tricked

1062
01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 2: or you tricked yourself into doing it. And you know,

1063
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 2: I was thinking about this the other day because I

1064
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:40,720
Speaker 2: was let's see, I was listening to an interview with

1065
01:03:40,760 --> 01:03:46,600
Speaker 2: longevity researcher and Blue Zone proponent Dan Butner, who is

1066
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:50,760
Speaker 2: not talking specifically about this example, but it was talking

1067
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:55,160
Speaker 2: in general about modern fitness and diet regimes that you know,

1068
01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 2: often to some degree or another, sort of promising you

1069
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 2: some sort of mortification against death and some shot at

1070
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:07,120
Speaker 2: a longer life. And you know, most of these are

1071
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:09,720
Speaker 2: not going to you know, especially when they're attached to

1072
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:11,520
Speaker 2: some sort of a fad, you know that they're not

1073
01:04:11,560 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 2: really going to make a huge difference in the long run,

1074
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 2: you know, or at least Butner would argue that there

1075
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 2: are these other other aspects that are far more important

1076
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 2: that are related to you know, broader diet and broader

1077
01:04:25,280 --> 01:04:28,040
Speaker 2: exercise and so forth. But anyway, there's no shortage of

1078
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:31,160
Speaker 2: people that are willing to say this is your shot.

1079
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 2: You can buy this product, you can you can buy

1080
01:04:33,600 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 2: this lifestyle, and this is what you need, and there's

1081
01:04:36,800 --> 01:04:38,720
Speaker 2: kind of like implied, and if you don't, well it's

1082
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:41,160
Speaker 2: kind of on you. You've kind of you know, So

1083
01:04:41,280 --> 01:04:43,760
Speaker 2: that's the trick. I don't know, that's that was one

1084
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:45,280
Speaker 2: thing I was thinking about in regards to this.

1085
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 3: At any rate, I think I see what you're saying,

1086
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 3: that we live in an environment of false assurances, where

1087
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 3: people are being given the idea that they you don't

1088
01:04:55,840 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 3: have to die, you know, you can like nobody really

1089
01:04:59,160 --> 01:05:05,360
Speaker 3: almost nobody thinks exactly that, But you're allowed to perpetuate

1090
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,360
Speaker 3: an illusion, a little illusion where you can feel like,

1091
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 3: you know, somehow I can escape it, somehow, it's not

1092
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,000
Speaker 3: going to happen to me. I can just keep it,

1093
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:14,280
Speaker 3: you know, I can keep it at bay if I

1094
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:18,080
Speaker 3: take the right supplements or do whatever. You know, it's

1095
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 3: just it's not going to happen to me, and it is,

1096
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:23,240
Speaker 3: you know. So that's the trick in a way. We're

1097
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 3: given all these these false assurances.

1098
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1099
01:05:26,000 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, Though also I want to be clear, I'm not

1100
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:30,640
Speaker 3: saying like there's nothing you can do to affect when

1101
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 3: it happens. I mean, obviously, you know, there are there's

1102
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 3: pretty good evidence for some types of you know, effects

1103
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 3: of certain lifestyles on longevity. Nothing is you know, nothing's

1104
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 3: going to work all the time, but you can change

1105
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:48,960
Speaker 3: your your odds or you know, on average with the

1106
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:51,200
Speaker 3: and and the weird thing about this is, you know,

1107
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:53,240
Speaker 3: from what I can tell, like all the stuff that

1108
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:56,280
Speaker 3: looks like it's the really good secret trick that only

1109
01:05:56,360 --> 01:05:58,520
Speaker 3: the people really in the know know about that never

1110
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:00,720
Speaker 3: turns out to be real. You know, it's it's the

1111
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:03,440
Speaker 3: boring stuff you've already heard in all like diet and

1112
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 3: exercise and stuff.

1113
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:09,560
Speaker 2: Not having the methamphetamine in the French fries. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1114
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:12,800
Speaker 2: And not to sound like every like self help source

1115
01:06:12,840 --> 01:06:15,320
Speaker 2: out there, I'm sure, but yeah, you're going to die

1116
01:06:15,320 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 2: at some point, but you're in the meantime you are

1117
01:06:17,480 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 2: going to live. Yeah. That might be a short amount

1118
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 2: of time, it might be a long amount of time,

1119
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 2: but you will be living during that time. And that's something. Yeah.

1120
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:27,480
Speaker 2: All right, Well, I think we're going to go ahead

1121
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 2: and close up this episode, but we will be back

1122
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:33,560
Speaker 2: because there's a lot more to discover to discuss. We've

1123
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 2: I think we've we've presented an excellent scaffold on which

1124
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 2: to build out the rest of our conversations. We're going

1125
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,080
Speaker 2: to get we're certainly going to get more into gender

1126
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:48,880
Speaker 2: and death personifications. I have some interesting sources on that.

1127
01:06:49,600 --> 01:06:50,560
Speaker 2: We're going to look at.

1128
01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:53,160
Speaker 3: Really interesting stuff about that in art history hmm.

1129
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:56,720
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah. And you can even follow that trend into

1130
01:06:56,840 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 2: and get into modern media, like you know, where does

1131
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:02,320
Speaker 2: a male death show up, what does a female death

1132
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:05,360
Speaker 2: show up? And so forth, So it'll be fun to

1133
01:07:05,360 --> 01:07:07,520
Speaker 2: get into that, and we'll also of course draw on

1134
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:14,360
Speaker 2: various other cultural traditions regarding the personification of death. So

1135
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:17,280
Speaker 2: we hope you will join us for those discussions in

1136
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 2: the upcoming episodes. In the meantime, we'd love to hear

1137
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:22,520
Speaker 2: from everyone out there if you have thoughts on anything

1138
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 2: we've discussed here, Certainly, even if it's just maybe you

1139
01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 2: had never thought about what death personified would be and

1140
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:32,760
Speaker 2: how you picture it. If you want to go through

1141
01:07:32,800 --> 01:07:36,080
Speaker 2: that experiment with us, write in and tell us what

1142
01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:38,360
Speaker 2: death looks like. Maybe we can share these in a

1143
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 2: future Listener Male episode.

1144
01:07:40,240 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

1145
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1146
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:48,400
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any others, or to

1147
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:51,040
Speaker 3: suggest a topic for the future, or just to say hello.

1148
01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 3: You can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

1149
01:07:53,680 --> 01:08:02,120
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

1150
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:05,160
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

1151
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:09,080
Speaker 1: more podcasts from heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1152
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:25,600
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.