1 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,400 Speaker 1: All right, well, welcome guys. I am joined by a 2 00:00:12,440 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: new friend, Emily and Halt, and I am so excited 3 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: because she is a clinical psychologist and then co founder 4 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 1: of an organization called KOA, which we're going to talk 5 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: all about. It's a gym for your mental health. So welcome. 6 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: First of all, thank you, thanks for having me. Yeah, 7 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: of course, I'm just so interested in this because I'm 8 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,879 Speaker 1: a therapist. This is a podcast about mental health and therapy, 9 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 1: and I have never really heard much about this term 10 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: emotional and mental health fitness. So can we just like 11 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: talk about that and what CoA is from the beginning? 12 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: Absolutely so. CoA is a gym for mental health, and 13 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: we are working to make your mental health care practice 14 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: as modern, accessible and proactive as your physical health practice. 15 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: And we do this through therapist led emotional fitness classes 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: and one on one therapy matchmaking, and it's all really 17 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: rooted in community. This concept of emotional fitness. It is 18 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,680 Speaker 1: a newer term that we coined to describe this ongoing, 19 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: proactive practice of strengthening your mental and emotional health. So 20 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: what it does is it helps build the internal tools 21 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: that we need to face and move through the inevitable 22 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: ups and downs of life, and the curriculum at CoA 23 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: is based on research that I did a number of 24 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,960 Speaker 1: years ago where I interviewed a hundred psychologists and a 25 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: hundred entrepreneurs about what makes someone emotionally healthy, What does 26 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: that look like, what does that feel like? What do 27 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: those people do, what do they not do? And out 28 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: of this research came what we call the seven Traits 29 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: of emotional fitness. These are the seven things that people 30 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: can do every day to work toward better and stronger 31 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: mental and emotional health. It's sort of like, if you 32 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: think about physical fitness, you should be sleeping well, eating healthy, exercising. 33 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: You want to do leg day sometimes and cardio other times. 34 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: This is the emotional health equivalent of that, and those 35 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:10,559 Speaker 1: seven traits are self awareness, empathy, mindfulness, curiosity, playfulness, resilience, 36 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: and communication. One. I'm very very interested in this because 37 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: I also work in the fitness industry and something that 38 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: I see often on both sides, I would say mental 39 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: health and physical health. This like need to only work 40 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: on things if there's like a crisis in physical health. 41 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,000 Speaker 1: I hear this all the time, like I'll change my 42 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: diet or the way I approach food if I have diabetes, 43 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,519 Speaker 1: or if I get diagnosed with high cholesterol, or if 44 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: my disordered eating might not matter unless it's like an 45 00:02:41,440 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 1: actual diagnosed eating disorder, or my anxiety isn't that big 46 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: of a deal until I have a panic attack. So 47 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: I guess for me, it's so interesting that when we 48 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: say this way, I can convince people easier that hey, 49 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 1: these physical things actually do end up playing a part 50 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: in the longevity of your physical health, like movement and 51 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: diet and all and sleep and all of that kind 52 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 1: of stuff. And that's one of the reasons I created 53 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: this podcast because I was like, we all should be 54 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: talking about some of this stuff. But it's harder for 55 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: me to convince somebody or get somebody on my team 56 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: with the idea that, hey, this stuff is affecting your 57 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 1: mental health, whether you feel or not, whether your panic 58 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: attacks or not, this is affecting you and how you 59 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: go about your life. So what's that been like for you? 60 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: Because this is exactly what we need to do that Yeah, 61 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you're describing something that is really true in 62 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: our culture, which is that mental health care is really 63 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: reactive or made me feel like we have to be 64 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: completely falling apart to have permission or to deserve support. 65 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: But just like what you said, that's like saying, you 66 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: know what all do cardio? Once I get diagnosed with 67 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: heart disease, It's like, Yeah, at that point, you've lost 68 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: a lot of opportunity to prevent a lot of the 69 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,760 Speaker 1: things that you're now having to fix. And while mental 70 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: health struggles or something we're all going to face throughout 71 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: our life no matter what, I have found that people 72 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: who prioritize their emotional fitness actually do keep themselves from 73 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: having to deal with certain things. And I think a 74 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: lot of our struggles in adulthood are result of not 75 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: being given the space and the tools and the resources 76 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: and the support and the permission to lead toward our 77 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: emotional lives when we're younger. And now there's this build 78 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: up and so to me, emotional fitness is like getting 79 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: your reps in building your internal resilience so that not 80 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: only can you face tough things, but you actually might 81 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: prevent tough things. Okay, So in my head now I'm 82 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: wondering what does that look like? Because I hear this too. 83 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,240 Speaker 1: I hear because I'm like therapy for everybody, And I 84 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: love that you said that it's reactive. I don't know 85 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: I've heard that like in a sentence like that, but 86 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: I hear all the time like, yeah, I would go 87 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: to therapy, but I have nothing to talk about. It's 88 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: so funny. Well, so there's a couple of layers here. 89 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: First of all, the idea of I have nothing to 90 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: talk about. Part of that is the voice telling us 91 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: that unless we're falling apart, we don't have anything worth saying. 92 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: So that's part of it, right, But the other thing is, 93 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,160 Speaker 1: I think what we don't always realize is that the 94 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: things we most need to talk about tend to be 95 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 1: a couple layers down. They don't feel so accessible to 96 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: us in every moment. I'll have patients come in and 97 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: sit down and say, I don't know what we're going 98 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: to talk about today, And by the end of the 99 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 1: session they're in all kinds of really profound, important, tender 100 00:05:17,640 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 1: places that they wouldn't have known to ask for at 101 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 1: the beginning, but that just having that safe space to 102 00:05:23,400 --> 00:05:27,359 Speaker 1: explore leads them there. And so I would say, don't 103 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 1: listen to that idea that you don't have enough to 104 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: talk about, because we all have lots to talk about. 105 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: I mean I was in therapy three times a week 106 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 1: for eight years. I did a classic analytic course of therapy, 107 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: and six years in I was still having my mind 108 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: blown by things that I didn't even know I needed 109 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: to think or you know, feel through. So give it 110 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 1: a try. You'll you'll be a surprise, is what I 111 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 1: would say to people with that worry. Here's the other 112 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 1: thing too, that we sometimes walk into sessions with like 113 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: we have no idea and then all of a sudden 114 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: we're talking about this stuff that is like mind blowing 115 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 1: and changing the way we think, feel, act, But sometimes 116 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 1: it's just nice to be there, and like, sometimes sessions 117 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: aren't like that, and I think that's a misconception too, 118 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: of like every therapy session you have to have to 119 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: be worth it has to be this like mind blowing experience, 120 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 1: and sometimes it's just about like having a space to 121 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: be seen. And that's literally it like period one. You know, 122 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: the sessions where you do have those big epiphanies or 123 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: something earth shattering does happen. Those sessions are a result 124 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: of all of the seemingly unproductive sessions that came before. 125 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: You know, we have to build towards those things. That's 126 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: I think about it. Almost like when you're farming. There 127 00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: are seasons where you reap what you've sown, but there's 128 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 1: also seasons where you have to just let the ground 129 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 1: kind of rejuvenate and get ready to be planted again, 130 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: and there's seasons where you're waiting patiently for things to 131 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: grow slowly. And similarly, in therapy, we have to give 132 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,799 Speaker 1: ourselves the space and time to build toward change because 133 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: if change we're easy, you would have done it already. 134 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: I don't think we give ourselves enough credit that the 135 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: kind of change that we want, even just the small 136 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: changes in life that gently lead us toward where we 137 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 1: want to go, those are difficult and complicated changes to make, 138 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: and we have to create a space for that to happen. 139 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: So now I'm wondering too when people are like, Okay, 140 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: I'm into this. I want to go to a gym 141 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: for my mental health because I like the gym for 142 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: my actual health, or that seems interesting, what does that 143 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: actually look like? So our classes are really experiential. We 144 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 1: knew that just being talked at for ninety minutes it's 145 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: not going to create the deep change that I think 146 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: we're all looking for. You have to practice just like 147 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,000 Speaker 1: going to the gym and hearing a lecture about how 148 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: to lift weights correctly is I'm not going to be 149 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: the same as actually doing it. So in our classes, 150 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: what we do is we explain some kind of psychological 151 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: concept that we feel is really relevant to the trait 152 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: that you're learning, so self awareness, resilience, whatever treat you're in, 153 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:04,360 Speaker 1: and then you're actually going to practice a framework for 154 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: that psychological concept. So you're going to be in breakout rooms, 155 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: you're going to be taking polls, you're going to be 156 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,120 Speaker 1: talking to each other in the chat, and you're actually 157 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: gonna work your way through it like it's an exercise, 158 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: sort of like someone showing you around the gym and saying, 159 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: here's how you use this machine. Here's a this machine, 160 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 1: go ahead, try it, and then you do it and 161 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:22,880 Speaker 1: someone's like, oh, you know what, I would tweak this 162 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: a little bit. So all of our instructors are licensed therapists, 163 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: and even though the classes are not therapy, it's this 164 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: opportunity to have a therapeutic experience and have someone say, yes, 165 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: I think you're really getting it, but what if you 166 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 1: thought about it this way? And by the end of 167 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,079 Speaker 1: the class, not only do you have an insight shift, 168 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: you know, a perspective shift. You also have this really concrete, 169 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: actionable exercise that you can bring into your life and 170 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: practice all the time. Plus you have this community of 171 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: people who are also working on their emotional fitness. Like 172 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: the metaphor I use a lot is when you go 173 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: to the gym, you have to lift your own weights. 174 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: No one can lift your weights for you. But it's 175 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: a hell of a lot easier to lift weights when 176 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: other people are around who are also lifting weights, and 177 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: who can spot you, and who can show you how 178 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: far you've come, and who can give you something to 179 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: look forward to. You know, So we say emotional fitness 180 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,959 Speaker 1: it's an individual journey, but it's a communal pursuit. Okay. 181 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: I was about to say something about that, because I mean, 182 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: I just like going with this metaphor of like the 183 00:09:22,520 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: actual gym. Two. I teach group fitness classes and I 184 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: am a big proponent of group fitness, And the real 185 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: like thing that I love about it isn't like what 186 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:36,839 Speaker 1: it does to change your body and what it looks like. 187 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: It's that like you're creating friendships and experiences and you're 188 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: seeing people and you're making eye contact with people, and 189 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:45,720 Speaker 1: you are cheering people on, and like, that's the thing. 190 00:09:46,880 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: I don't know if you feel this, but I feel 191 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: this deeply that before the pandemic, people would ask me like, 192 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,559 Speaker 1: what do you specialize in, and like, technically I specialize 193 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: in eating disorders. But I got to a point where 194 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: I was like, honestly, I out I specialized in eating 195 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 1: disorders and body image, but it feels like I specialize 196 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 1: in loneliness. Like when we get down to the root 197 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,559 Speaker 1: of it, everybody is lonely and everybody is wanting more connection. 198 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: And I even said yesterday in a session to somebody, 199 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: I was like, I don't even know if this is 200 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: appropriate to say to you, but I've had I said 201 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: this to my client. I was like, I've had like 202 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:23,959 Speaker 1: seven people this week talk about the same thing you're 203 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 1: talking about to me, but none of y'all are talking 204 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: about it to each other, so you all think that 205 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: you're alone, and you all think that you're the only 206 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: one with this issue. And she was like, I'm not 207 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: looking for this to be fixed, because I know it 208 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: can't be fixed. But when I express this issue to 209 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: somebody else and they don't know what to say to me, 210 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: not because they can't fix it, because they're like, I 211 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: can't relate to that. That's what is painful, not the 212 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: actual thing I'm struggling with. And I was like, but 213 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: everybody's talking about this to me, to me, so I 214 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: don't know if you feel like that before the pandemic. 215 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: I think the pandemic has like grossly exacerbated that issue. 216 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: And then we pull on social media and that sometimes 217 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 1: it becomes a whole other issue because then we're not 218 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 1: going outside of our homes sometimes or we think we're connecting, 219 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: but we're not. So for you having this place where, 220 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 1: even if it is virtual, I am connecting to people 221 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,439 Speaker 1: and seeing people's faces and I'm in this with somebody. 222 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: To me, that's one of the most exciting parts of 223 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: this whole idea. Oh yeah, We've had so many people 224 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: just say how we're leaving. It was just to see 225 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: other people grappling with the same things, or a different 226 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: variation of that thing, or even something totally different. But 227 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: just seeing that other people have their own things that 228 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,320 Speaker 1: they're struggling with it is really validating. And we have 229 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 1: all kinds of really lovely stories. One time we did 230 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: a little series on living alone during the pandemic, so 231 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: it's for people, you know, really in the height of it, 232 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: when you couldn't really see anyone. We put together a 233 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: class and there were two women in their seventies who 234 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: joined the class from opposite sides of the country, and 235 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: the emotional fitness instructor them in breakout rooms together, and 236 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: they reached out to us months later to say that 237 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: they still meet every week to talk about how they're 238 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: doing to keep each other company. And there's just something 239 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: so nice about finding peers who not only are going 240 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: through what you're going through, but also feel motivated to 241 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: work on themselves, because working on yourself in and of 242 00:12:18,720 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: itself can be lonely. If you don't feel like everyone 243 00:12:21,240 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 1: around you is committed to that as well, it can 244 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 1: feel like a big emotional burden. So something I say 245 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: a lot is in most of our relationships, we tend 246 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: to say I'll take care of you if you'll take 247 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: care of me, but we CoA actually think it should 248 00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 1: be more like, I'll take care of me for you 249 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: if you'll take care of you for me, and co 250 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 1: You're going to find other people who are doing that 251 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: and who can join you in that pursuit. I love that, 252 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: and I just do individual therapy and I wish I 253 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: could do group therapy. I used to do that every day, 254 00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: and there's something special about it that, like we can 255 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 1: have all the insight and all the aha moments, but 256 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: it's something different when you're doing it with something somebody 257 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 1: else that is not your therapist. I have a question though, 258 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 1: about self awareness, because I hear that word all the time. 259 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,880 Speaker 1: Now I don't know that it's I'm really hearing it more. 260 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: I'm just noticing more, but I'm hearing more about self awareness. 261 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: And I'm also hearing a lot of people talk about 262 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: how they have self awareness that quite possibly don't. Because 263 00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 1: since that is one of the main parts of this, 264 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:34,240 Speaker 1: I want to talk about, like, for you, what a 265 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: self awareness and how do you know if you have it, 266 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: how do you know if you don't? And then what 267 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: are ways that you've seen help build it? Sure, So 268 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 1: the way I define self awareness is self awareness is 269 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: an ongoing pursuit of understanding our emotional strengths, struggles, triggers, 270 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 1: and biases. And you're right at pointing out the irony 271 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: that we don't know what we don't know. So self 272 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: awareness isn't about knowing everything about ourselves. It's about knowing 273 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: that there are things that we probably aren't aware of, 274 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 1: and feeling committed to leaning towards those things and being 275 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: open to those things. So, you know how they say like, 276 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know, 277 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:14,840 Speaker 1: the better you are in a subject, the more you 278 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: realize just how much there is to it that you'll 279 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: never understand. That's how I feel about selfworness. I feel 280 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: like the more I work on seeing myself, the more 281 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: I realize how much there is that I haven't seen 282 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: yet or that might be hard to see. And selfwornesce 283 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: is hard because if we don't know something about ourselves 284 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: at this point in our life, it's probably because it's 285 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: uncomfortable to know, so we lean away from those things 286 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: instead of toward them. So self worence is saying, you 287 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: know what, I'm going to let myself be a little 288 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: uncomfortable because I want to peek into those dark corners 289 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: and understand how I might be standing in my own way, 290 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,200 Speaker 1: or how I might be contributing to the things that 291 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: are frustrating my life, or how I might be taking 292 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: away from the relationships that I care about things like that. Okay, 293 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: I'm going to try to quote you on this. This 294 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: is really stuck out to me. If there's something that 295 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,160 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's probably because it's uncomfortable to know. Okay. 296 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: So for some people, they might hear that and they 297 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: might be like, okay, So like I don't want to 298 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: touch that, Like if it's uncomfortable, I don't want to 299 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: touch it because I relate to that so much of 300 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 1: like self awareness sometimes sucks, like it just is like, oh, 301 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:21,920 Speaker 1: I know that I do that. Or I was talking 302 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: on a podcast as on last week with one of 303 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: my friends. We were talking about feedback and like the 304 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: power of feedback and how like sometimes we won't give 305 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:31,200 Speaker 1: it to people or we don't want to give it 306 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: to people because we don't want to make them uncomfortable. 307 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, and we can also look 308 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: at it as a gift, Like if I'm giving somebody feedback, 309 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: it's probably because I'm letting them in on something they're 310 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: not aware of. And I use the example, really low 311 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: scale example of the human that produces and edits this podcast. 312 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: His name is Houston. He's amazing at his job, and 313 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,560 Speaker 1: since he listens to me talk a lot. He picks 314 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: up on things that I do, and he gave me 315 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: feedback once and he was like, do you know that 316 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: you say the US? And I think it was reminding 317 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: me what it was. Oh, every time I'm changing the 318 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: subject when I'm doing an episode by myself, I'll say 319 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 1: like with that being said, And then he's like, you 320 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: say that like twenty times an episode and I was 321 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: like oh, and a part of me cringed because I 322 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: was like, oh, okay, I wasn't aware that I did that, 323 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: had no self awareness of that, and knowing it, it 324 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: was almost a little bit embarrassing, like I felt like 325 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: a little bit of shame. But then I was like, well, 326 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: thank you, because now I can work on that and 327 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 1: you can edit it out in a podcast. But if 328 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: I go speak somewhere, people are gonna be like, oh 329 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: my gosh, that's so annoying. Can she stop saying that? 330 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 1: And so I give that example and it's not it's 331 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: a low stakes example, but I am just curious, like, 332 00:16:41,440 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 1: maybe from your experience as a therapist or INCOA, like, 333 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: how do we encourage people to move into the self 334 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: awareness realm? Because I think a lot of people want to, 335 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: like I said earlier. They want to like because it's 336 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: a great trait, right, I'm self aware. They want to 337 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: hold onto that and they want to claim it. You're saying, 338 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: but they don't actually sometimes really want to experience it 339 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: because it's uncomfortable, right, some part of them doesn't want 340 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: to experience it. But there's a reason. One of our 341 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: other traits is mindfulness, which we define as becoming more 342 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: comfortable being uncomfortable. I think that on the other side 343 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: of discomfort is everything we want in life. So much 344 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: of what we want is only not available to us 345 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: because of the discomfort we'd have to withstand to move 346 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 1: toward it. So similarly with the example you gave, it's 347 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: perfect because you weren't aware of this vocal ticket which 348 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: we all have. Some people say, um, you know that 349 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: kind of thing. You weren't aware of it, but other 350 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: people were aware. And so in the moment when you 351 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: went from not knowing it to knowing it, you are uncomfortable. 352 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 1: But if you can get past that moment, what you 353 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: gain is agency, agency to make a change, And now 354 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: suddenly you can change something that will positively affect you 355 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: in all kinds of ways. And likely it's not going 356 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: to be as uncomfortable, you know, a year from now 357 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: as it is now, but you will have made this 358 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: profound change. And so the message I want to put 359 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 1: out there is people can handle more discomfort than they 360 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,719 Speaker 1: give themselves credit for. And if they can stick with it, 361 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: then through that door of discomfort is this entire room 362 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,399 Speaker 1: or even world of opportunity and possibility for what they 363 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:22,679 Speaker 1: can do with their lives. I am obsessed with that that, 364 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 1: like that gives us agency, Like you're like putting all 365 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: these light bulbs in my head. But it's remind me 366 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:33,119 Speaker 1: of another conversation I had with somebody about how social 367 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: media controls us. And the conversation was important because it 368 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: was bringing self awareness to our behaviors and it was 369 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: like all about reminding us that we do have power 370 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,840 Speaker 1: to make choices, but when we are consumed with social media, 371 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: sometimes we don't have that. And so it was about 372 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,399 Speaker 1: getting the agency back. And I love that idea because mindfulness. 373 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: So often people are like, I don't want to practice mindfulness. 374 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to do a mindful exercise. I don't 375 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: want to do any of that. I don't want to 376 00:18:57,080 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 1: do any of that. That's uncomfortable but what mind fullness 377 00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: is doing is giving us the opportunity for agency in 378 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: our lives. Yes, it's like so much of what we 379 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: do in life is in service of avoiding discomfort. But 380 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:12,679 Speaker 1: what people don't realize is often the things they do 381 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 1: to avoid discomfort actually end up creating more discomfort for them. 382 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: So if instead we could get comfortable just leaning into 383 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: that discomfort in the first place, we suddenly have all 384 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: these new options because we're not only looking for the 385 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: option that gets us out of the discomfort the quickest. 386 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: We're now looking at all of the possibilities and deciding 387 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: which is actually the choice I want to make in 388 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: this moment. And just to give an example that probably 389 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people can relate to, because that avoidance thing, 390 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: I think it's important. I'm this way when I have 391 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,399 Speaker 1: a lot to do. I don't know if you can 392 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:45,480 Speaker 1: relate to this this, But when I have a lot to 393 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: do or something scary, like something that I'm not like 394 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: well versed in, like um, let's say my taxes, like 395 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: doing stuff like that, Like that's overwhelming to me because 396 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 1: it's a lot of stuff I don't understand and there's 397 00:19:58,400 --> 00:19:59,960 Speaker 1: fear and it am I going to do something wrong? 398 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 1: Did I do something wrong? And so what I do 399 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: is I avoid it, So I avoid doing it, I 400 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,320 Speaker 1: put it off. I wait to the last minute, And 401 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: so I think that's helping me because then I don't 402 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: have to deal with my anxiety. But in the end, 403 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 1: then it's like aprilt and my anxiety is through the roof, 404 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: and I've actually like made a lot of mistakes because 405 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: I wasn't proactive, so it makes it worse. You've you've 406 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,239 Speaker 1: given a perfect example of the kind of emotional push up, 407 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: as we call it, that you might do in one 408 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: of our mind phonest classes. So you might be asked 409 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 1: to think of an example of something that makes you 410 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: a little bit uncomfortable. So let's say it's doing taxes, 411 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:39,479 Speaker 1: and then you would be tasked with thinking, what do 412 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 1: I tend to do to avoid the discomfort? So it 413 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,560 Speaker 1: sounds like for you the answer is I put them off. 414 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: I pretend they don't exist. I tell myself I'll do 415 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: them later. And then you start to think, Okay, how 416 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: could that actually be creating more problems for me, which 417 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: you also just said. You know, at the last minute, 418 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: it's harder, you're gonna make mistakes less time to reach 419 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: out for support, right, And so then we think, what 420 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,439 Speaker 1: could we do instead of avoiding the discomfort? What are 421 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,120 Speaker 1: the shock absorbers we can put in place? So when 422 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: you know it's time to do your taxes, instead of 423 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: saying all right, I'm just gonna put through them later, 424 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: can we say, you know what? Instead, I'm going to 425 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: write a list of three things that I'm really worried about, 426 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,080 Speaker 1: and I'm going to reach out to someone who is 427 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 1: really good about taxes and ask them if they would 428 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,199 Speaker 1: just keep me company. I'm just going to take a 429 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: slightly different path when I'm uncomfortable instead of avoiding. And 430 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 1: now you've completely opened up all these new options for 431 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: yourself of how to deal with this tough thing. And 432 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: if we learn how to do this in all parts 433 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: of our life, all the little pockets that we have 434 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 1: discomfort in, it's just amazing how much more agency we 435 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: gain in the direction our life takes. Yeah, And I 436 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: love that you could put that in an example for 437 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 1: what that would look like in your program too. I 438 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: wonder too, I don't know if there's an answer to 439 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: this question. I might just be talking, but I wonder 440 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:04,520 Speaker 1: what it is about discomfort that makes us. So this 441 00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:08,199 Speaker 1: might be like an existential who knows what question, but like, 442 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: what is it about discomfort that makes us so uncomfortable? 443 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: Does that question even make sense? No, it totally does, 444 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:17,399 Speaker 1: And I guess I would say, I mean, I think 445 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: there's the truth that uncomfortable is uncomfortable, so we want 446 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 1: to avoid it. But I think if anyone examines their life, 447 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: they'll see that there are some types of discomfort that 448 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: they're more comfortable with and some types of discomfort that 449 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: they're less comfortable with. So, for example, I have a 450 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: friend who is a fitness stuff and he can push 451 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 1: himself to really extreme levels of physical discomfort, and his 452 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: mind just doesn't have to have alarm bells going off. 453 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 1: He doesn't think, oh, I'm in danger, I need to 454 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: do something about this. He's just gotten comfortable being that 455 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,240 Speaker 1: type of uncomfortable because he knows as if he keeps 456 00:22:49,240 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: pushing through it, he's going to get stronger. Whereas if 457 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: you ask him to have a difficult conversation with the colleague, 458 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: he might be like, oh no, no, no, that that 459 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,640 Speaker 1: would be too much. And really it's it's the same 460 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 1: thing happening inside of us. We have just tagged meaning 461 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: to certain types of discomfort, and in my experience as 462 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 1: a therapist, you can usually connect some dots between what 463 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: type of discomfort were you supported in withstanding growing up, 464 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: and what types of discomfort were you told are really 465 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: dangerous and that you should run from. Like if you 466 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:19,880 Speaker 1: grew up in a family that didn't let you feel 467 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: your feelings, then you might not think that it's possible 468 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,960 Speaker 1: to withstand the discomfort of feelings. So learning about that 469 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 1: in ourselves again gives us more agency about pushing against 470 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: it a little and reminding ourselves, no, you know what, 471 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,720 Speaker 1: I can handle this. It feels hard, but I can 472 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 1: do it. I'm going to keep going, which I mean 473 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: speaks to the unknown and speaks to like narratives and stories, 474 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: because I'm thinking about what kind of discomfort am I 475 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: more apt to be like run away from and run 476 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 1: into and even things like somebody might feel really comfortable 477 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: having a confrontation with an employer or like uh, negotiating 478 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: pay or something like that. Somebody might be like, yeah, 479 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: I can do that, but then they can't tell their 480 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 1: partner that they feel ignored or left out or abandoned, 481 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: you know, So where I might be the opposite of that, person, 482 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 1: and it's all about like, Okay, well what was normalized 483 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: and what are the stories like? And now I'm having 484 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: this image of like somebody might be really afraid of 485 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,719 Speaker 1: This might be a weird example, like somebody might be 486 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: really uncomfortable with the dark, like afraid of the dark, 487 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: but it's because like they left the hall light on 488 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: until they were eighteen years old because they had the 489 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: story that if the hall light was not on then 490 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: something bad was going to happen. So they're afraid of 491 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: the dark, where somebody might have slept in the pitch 492 00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: black since they were out of the womb, and so 493 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: they don't have a discomfort in that. You're describing how 494 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,640 Speaker 1: mental health is not one size fits all, and that's 495 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: really our philosophy at CO It is we're not going 496 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,600 Speaker 1: to say exactly the same thing to every person because 497 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: our relationship to the things we need to work on 498 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: a really unique. So that's why instead we present an 499 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: opportunity to use a personal example and work through what 500 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: we're teaching as it actually relates to you in your life. 501 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: I think you've also described something that I think about 502 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 1: a lot, which is a very common trope in wellness, 503 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: is to tell people just to always trust their gut. 504 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 1: Just trust your gut, like it's this perfect source of truth. 505 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 1: But what we don't realize is that our gut instinct 506 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: is trying to tell us what's going to keep us safe, 507 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: and that instinct is often formed around trauma, not truth. 508 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 1: So a person who is bit by a dog when 509 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,480 Speaker 1: they're young, their gut instinct might be that every dog 510 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: is dangerous, even though every dog is not dangerous. I 511 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: think it's also, you know, really a seat of bias. 512 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: When we're told that certain people are dangerous, then our 513 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: gut instinct might not lead us toward a true representation 514 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: of those groups of people. So I tell people your 515 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 1: gut instinct is an important voice to listen to, certainly, 516 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: but it is not the only voice that should be 517 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: on stage. You should also bring in your rational mind 518 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: to have a conversation with it. Yeah, and I feel 519 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: like you with that full circle brought this back to 520 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: like the beginning of the talking about the people who 521 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: are like, I'm fine, I don't need to work on 522 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: my my mental health. Because as a therapist, we realize 523 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 1: and we learn and we know through training and also 524 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: experience that the most important part of of the process 525 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 1: isn't or the question we should be asking isn't whether 526 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: or not somebody has trauma or whether they don't, because 527 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: the reality is a lot of us do. It's just 528 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: different wavelengths of it. But it's is that has that 529 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: been processed? And how has that been processed? What is 530 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 1: the meaning we put behind that experience? And for somebody 531 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: who's like I'm fine, Like I don't have any issues 532 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: with my mental health, I don't need to work on 533 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: my emotional fitness, and my relationships are fine. Pep. Let's 534 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:49,400 Speaker 1: say that might not know what like jail cell they're 535 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: living in. They might not realize that they might be 536 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,400 Speaker 1: caged in something, but it's just the story that they've 537 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: been living in their whole life. They don't know what's 538 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: out there, and they don't know what might be possible 539 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,120 Speaker 1: for them. Like I'm not one to say that every 540 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 1: single person absolutely needs therapy, but I am one to 541 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 1: say that every single person will benefit from therapy in 542 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: ways that they might not even know to ask for, 543 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: because just like every person is going to benefit from 544 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,920 Speaker 1: exercising a little more, eating healthy, getting enough sleep, you 545 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: might not even realize that you're tired because you've lived 546 00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: in that state your whole life, and then all of 547 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: a sudden you start getting good sleep and you have 548 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: more acute and more able to focus. And the same 549 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: is true with emotional health. You don't know what you 550 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: don't know. There is no one who would not benefit 551 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: from starting to do that work. Which is interesting because 552 00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: you said when you did this research, you interviewed mental 553 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: health professionals and an entrepreneurs. Right, Okay, I'm interested in 554 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 1: what the idea behind those two groups of people was. Yeah, 555 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: So I chose psychologist because I wanted the clinical perspective, 556 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,000 Speaker 1: you know, from that side of the couch, as I say, 557 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,399 Speaker 1: what do you see? What kinds of things are you 558 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: working on with people? How do you know when someone 559 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 1: is getting better? And from the entrepreneurial side of things. 560 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,640 Speaker 1: I was really doing this research originally to figure out 561 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: how to help people be better leaders, and so I 562 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 1: wanted to understand specifically when people look to you to 563 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: know how they should act in an organization, what does 564 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: it look like to be a healthy person for them 565 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: to look up to. So I wanted to see how 566 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,040 Speaker 1: much overlap is this And what we found pretty quickly 567 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: is that although this information is really important for leaders. 568 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: It's relevant to everyone because we are all leaders of 569 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: some kind in our life, whether we're a parent, or 570 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: whether we have friends who look to us, or whether 571 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:38,719 Speaker 1: we are helping a community or have colleagues who are 572 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: newer or whatever. There's no one who wouldn't benefit from 573 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: doing their own work because that work then ripples out 574 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: and helps everyone around them, right, which you can see 575 00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: probably in like large organizations, like what what are the 576 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: traits that the people at the top have and then 577 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: what's the level of health of this community. Yes, it's 578 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: such a clear correlation there for sure, And at I'm 579 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: like so grateful for this like pursuit because I think 580 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 1: a lot of people look at leaders and think they 581 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: should look a certain way. This is my own bias 582 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: probably coming out, But it's like if I were to say, 583 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: if you're saying what makes a good leader, I would 584 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: probably say things closer to what you're describing and what 585 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: you've found. But I don't know if I would have 586 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: said that if I when I was like in college, 587 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: I would have been like, they're strong, they don't care 588 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: about what other people think. They can make decisions quickly, 589 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: they don't need to ask for help, That's what I 590 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: would have said. Probably, Well, I think the mental health 591 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: revolution is happening right now. I think it's becoming clear 592 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: that these things are really important for us to live 593 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: the lives we want. And you know, there are different 594 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: types of success, but my experience is that to look 595 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: back and feel really good about what you've done, you've 596 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: probably prioritized relationships of some kind in your life. And 597 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: really emotional fitness is all about working on the relationship 598 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: you have to yourself and the relationship that you have 599 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: to everyone else in your life. You say, again, what, 600 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: because I just really liked it what you said about 601 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: i'll work on me for you. Sure. Yeah, So in 602 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: most relationships we tend to say I'll take care of 603 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: you if you'll take care of me. But actually we 604 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: believe that instead we should have the mindset of I'll 605 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,400 Speaker 1: take care of me for you if you'll take care 606 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: of you for me. And this isn't to say that 607 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: we shouldn't rely on each other. It means that we 608 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: are each ultimately responsible for our own satisfaction in our life, 609 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: and that by claiming that and by committing to working 610 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: on it, we're doing our self a service and we're 611 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: doing everyone around us the service as well. I wanted 612 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 1: to get back to that before we run of time, 613 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,520 Speaker 1: just because we just did a series on attachment styles 614 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: and in that I think that a lot of what's 615 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: gotten like misconstrued in the past couple like maybe ten 616 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: years because we've had this uptake of learning about codependency 617 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: is that everybody's codependency and that means everything is bad, 618 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: when the reality is we all have like a tinge 619 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: of codependency. But what you're talking about is like I'll 620 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: take care of you if you take care of me. 621 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: Is like the toxic codependent relationship, but the healthy attachment 622 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: relationship is what you're describing that you guys are teaching 623 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: and I just love that. And and not to say 624 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: you shouldn't take care of the people in your life 625 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,760 Speaker 1: where you shouldn't ask to be taken care of, that's 626 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: true too. I think our philosophy is the base layer, 627 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: the foundation of our satisfaction in life has to be 628 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: in our own hands in order to get to where 629 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: we want to go. And once you are in that 630 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,680 Speaker 1: relationship on taking care of me, you're taking care of view, 631 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,840 Speaker 1: then we're going to have the capacity to take care 632 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: of each other in a totally different way because we 633 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,959 Speaker 1: have ultimately taken responsibility for ourselves underneath it. So I 634 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: could sit here, I have more questions for you, but 635 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:46,479 Speaker 1: we're have time, so I'm going to link all of 636 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: the info in our show notes for anybody who's like, oh, 637 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: I want to follow Emily or I want to follow 638 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 1: co oor, I want to join this or I want 639 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: to explore this. I'll link it so you can just 640 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: click on it. Is there anything that you want to 641 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: express just to incur ug people are ways to find 642 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: you that you want to just say yourself. Well, sure, 643 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 1: So if anyone wants to continue the conversation with me, 644 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,560 Speaker 1: the best places Twitter and my handle is d r 645 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: Emily Anhalt. But if you're ready to come work on 646 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: your emotional fitness, then we would love for you to 647 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 1: head to join co O j O I n c 648 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: o A dot com. And actually I'm going to make 649 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 1: a discount code for your community, So if you type 650 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: and you need therapy into the discount box, then you'll 651 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,080 Speaker 1: get fifteen percent off any of our series and we'll 652 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: be so excited to see you all there. Okay, amazing. 653 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: I love this idea. I love normalizing and making it 654 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: just as important to work on our emotional sides as 655 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,719 Speaker 1: we do everything else. And do you guys do in 656 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: person or is it all virtual? We had planned to 657 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: do in person when covid hit, we made a pivot. 658 00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: We will eventually do in person again, but for now 659 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: it's digital so that anyone can join from anywhere, which 660 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: makes sense with the world we're living in right now. 661 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: And I love that anybody can go. But I just 662 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 1: have this image of like somebody like walking out of 663 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,480 Speaker 1: their apartment complex and somebody being like, where are you going? 664 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:01,600 Speaker 1: And one person's like, I'm going to cycling class, and 665 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:07,560 Speaker 1: the other person's like, I'm going to my emotional fitness class. Yeah. 666 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: I love that dream. I'm here for the dream, and 667 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: I appreciate this conversation so much, so I'll link everything. 668 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: Thanks for the discount code. That's amazing. Thank you for 669 00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: having me and for everything you're doing to normalize this 670 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: important work.