1 00:00:01,560 --> 00:00:06,199 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 2: I think one of the big themes for me is obsession. 3 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 3: Great theme. 4 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:21,159 Speaker 2: It's the characters are obsessed. I become obsessed. There's a 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,920 Speaker 2: whole culture of obsession around this far from place pit 6 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 2: Caroen Island, and you start finding this insane cause and 7 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 2: effect of actions two hundred years ago and how they've 8 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 2: impacted a group of individuals today. So another big theme 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:43,440 Speaker 2: is trauma, little traumas everywhere essentially, and it's a civilization 10 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:45,519 Speaker 2: on the edge of the world, and it's sort of 11 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 2: death by a thousand cuts. 12 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 13 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 14 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold More Wicked on Exactly Right. I've 15 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 16 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 17 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 18 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories and now we 19 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 20 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents Wicked Words is 21 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: about the choices that writers make good and bad. It's 22 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:31,319 Speaker 1: a deep dive into the stories behind the stories. Author 23 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: and travel writer Brandon Presser is a fabulous storyteller. His 24 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,479 Speaker 1: book The Farland is an expansive story that stretches over 25 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: two centuries. There's a mutiny, a beautiful island, and many, 26 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: many murders. And as an author, I'm jealous. I will 27 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: say I love nautical history. If I could write a 28 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: book that's set on the water, I'm looking for a 29 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:53,480 Speaker 1: good mutiny. 30 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:55,639 Speaker 3: So I'm so jealous of this story. 31 00:01:55,720 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 4: So let's start absolutely, Yeah, a bunch of swash buckling 32 00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 4: British navy men who set out on a scientific mission 33 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 4: to cultivate a fruit breadfruit on the far side of 34 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 4: the world in Tahiti and bring it to Jamaica to 35 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 4: feed the slaves of the Caribbean plantations. 36 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 2: Only when they arrive, due to storms and other weather, 37 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 2: they have to wait for six months into heat before 38 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 2: they can go back. And what happens is they've fall 39 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,280 Speaker 2: in love with the destination, they fall in love with 40 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 2: the women, and when it's time to go, they rebel. 41 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 3: So let's start from the launch. 42 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 2: Well, what's interesting is that Lieutenant Bli who's going to 43 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: command the vessel was chosen for completely nepotistic purposes. His 44 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 2: wife was of a higher station and her uncle owned 45 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 2: a bunch of plantations in the New World, and he 46 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,920 Speaker 2: petitioned to the admiralty and was like, please send a 47 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 2: ship to get this bread fruit. We need a more 48 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 2: sustainable way to feed our slaves of the plantation. And 49 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 2: so Bli was put into place. And back then people 50 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 2: were what was called pressed into service. Navy men would 51 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 2: go into bars and force men to join fleet. But 52 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 2: because Tahiti had this lore around it as this mythical 53 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 2: place with beautiful people and beautiful weather, it was actually 54 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: really easy to find people to join the ship. In fact, 55 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: Bli had made so many promises to the friends and 56 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 2: family of his wife that he was told to take 57 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: foremanshipmen on board, and he took about eight. Oh wow, 58 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 2: So he actually stacked the ship incorrectly. He had too 59 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 2: many new sailors, and that was sort of part of 60 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 2: the recipe for what would eventually be a disaster. 61 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:49,840 Speaker 1: So not enough career seamen. Essentially, who would be loyal 62 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: to him. You've got a bunch of people who have 63 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: never really done much of this. Is that right, and 64 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: we're willing to rebel, I would guess. 65 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, So he had a whole coterie of fifteen year 66 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 2: old boys, and then he had brute strength, and then 67 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: he really worked those men hard because the fifteen year 68 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:13,119 Speaker 2: old boys were pretty useless. So there were already hard 69 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: working conditions on board. And when they reached the bottom 70 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 2: of South America, there were too many storms to allow 71 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:22,719 Speaker 2: them through. They tried for a month to get through 72 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 2: the storms. So what they ended up having to do 73 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 2: was go the long way around the world under Africa 74 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: and then across to Australia. So it was supposed to 75 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,039 Speaker 2: be a four month journey, it ended up taking eleven, 76 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 2: which is why they arrived at the wrong time of 77 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 2: the year to collect the breadfruit and turn back around. 78 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: And they were already working under difficult conditions to begin with. 79 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: And so you've got all these people who have signed 80 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,720 Speaker 1: on for a much longer trip than they thought they 81 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: were going to. 82 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they left around Christmas and BLI sort of 83 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 2: made an empty promise that they'd be done by the 84 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 2: following Christmas, but of course they didn't even reach Tahiti 85 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 2: until October of the following year. That included stops to 86 00:05:04,920 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: repair the ship. That included months at sea without any stops, 87 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 2: eating disgusting rations at that point. 88 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: So let's go back, because you have said breadfruit several times, 89 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 1: and I've never heard that before. 90 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,039 Speaker 2: So the idea was that Captain Cook had already visited Tahiti. 91 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 2: In fact, bly was with him on the mission where 92 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:29,040 Speaker 2: he ended up being murdered in Hawaii by the locals. 93 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 2: And Tahiti was very populated at the time, and they 94 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: had this breadfruit growing everywhere, and it was called breadfruit 95 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: because when you cooked it, it supposedly tasted like bread, 96 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 2: high in protein, high in nutrients. And so Tahiti had 97 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 2: this legendary fruit. It was populated that they were going 98 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,040 Speaker 2: to go. It's already been cultivated, and they were going 99 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 2: to use half of the ship to put all these 100 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 2: seedlings into the vessel. Even Bli had to give up 101 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 2: his captain's quarters so that there would be enough room 102 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 2: for one thousand huttings to bring. 103 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 3: Wow, So what do they think was going to happen? 104 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 3: This might be naive of me. 105 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: What did they think that their interaction with the Tahitians 106 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: who were already on the island. 107 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 3: Were they just going to let him take all this fruit. 108 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 2: So what had happened over the years was that Captain 109 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 2: Cook had become sort of a celebrity figure in Tahiti, 110 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: and BLI was going to leverage his friendship with Cook 111 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 2: and say, I've come on, Cook's behalf, We would like 112 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 2: to take a thousand cuttings. It grows so abundantly and 113 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 2: so wildly that it wasn't going to be that big videal. 114 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 2: And as part of the cargo that they packed to 115 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 2: bring to Tahiti were mirrors beads. The Tahitians didn't want 116 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:44,240 Speaker 2: to trade in money, they wanted to trade in goods 117 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 2: that they didn't have, and of course the British had 118 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 2: a ton of that. 119 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: Can you give us the cliff notes version of what 120 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 1: happens with Captain Cook? 121 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely? This is in the late seventeen eighties, okay. And 122 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 2: Captain Cook has made three journeys all over the world 123 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 2: quote unquote, discovering a bunch of new destinations. And as 124 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 2: part of one of his journeys, he had a British 125 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 2: nobleman named Joseph Banks who documented all of the new plants, 126 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 2: all of the new animals and brought it back. He 127 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,720 Speaker 2: was the president of the Royal Geographical Society, and Cook 128 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 2: started out as an explorer, and then I could take 129 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 2: the liberty of saying. On his third trip he became 130 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: a bit despotic and sort of megalomaniac kind of personality 131 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 2: and started treating locals that he would meet on the 132 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 2: way poorly, where before it was sort of from a 133 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 2: more diplomatic point of view, and he just got away 134 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: from himself and was chopping off ears of tribal chieftains. 135 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 2: And finally in Hawaii, which he called the Sandwich Islands, 136 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 2: the Hawaiians rebelled, cut him up into pieces, and actually Bly, 137 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: who commanded the bouncy, witnessed it. 138 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: And you would think that by the time Bligh is 139 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: in charge of his own ship, wouldn't there be some 140 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: sort of a blueprint for who you should stock the 141 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: ship with a good balance between more experienced seamen versus 142 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: the more inexperienced who might be a little bit more 143 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: influenced to mutiny if there were some people on board 144 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: who wanted to do that. 145 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 3: So they landed Tahiti, what year do they leave? 146 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 2: They left in seventeen eighty seven, and they arrived in 147 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 2: seventeen eighty eight. 148 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 3: Can we describe what they see? 149 00:08:27,840 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 1: These men who have not had correct nutrients, who I'm 150 00:08:31,280 --> 00:08:34,240 Speaker 1: sure are very pale and traumatized by being on the 151 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: ocean for months and months, almost a year. 152 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 2: Yes, suddenly a tall ship comes over the horizon, and 153 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: they're these ghastly apparitions, these skinny men with beards, who 154 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 2: are gaunt and missing teeth. 155 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 3: With weapons. I'm assuming, well, they. 156 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 2: Knew they were going to get a kind welcome because 157 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 2: enough explorers had been to Tahiti before, and BLI had 158 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 2: even been to Tihi before, so he knew what he 159 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 2: was getting himself into. And of course there was a 160 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 2: traditional welcome with all these outriggers coming out to bring 161 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 2: fruits and flowers and dancing, and there was a beautiful welcome. 162 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: But I think from if you think about it from 163 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 2: the Tahitian point of view, these men were absolutely ghastly 164 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 2: and monstrous. 165 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: Really, tell me how many people are on this boat. 166 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: You might have mentioned it before. When they pull in. 167 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 2: The bounty has just over forty crewmen. 168 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: Forty Okay, So they arrive and they are given a 169 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: warm welcome, and I assume they start gathering fruit after 170 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: they unwind a little bit so. 171 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 2: What's decided is that there's going to be a landing 172 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 2: party that is going to set up a tent on land. 173 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 2: They brought two gardeners with them, so a midship win 174 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 2: will come and help and then he'll be assigned back 175 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 2: to the ship. So Brute Forest will be helped to 176 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 2: chop down trees and then we'll be assigned back to 177 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 2: the ship. So there's a group of them in a 178 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 2: tent to set up, and the culling essentially begins, and 179 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:59,320 Speaker 2: negotiations occur with different chieftains. They move the ship at 180 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 2: one point go to a different piece of land to 181 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 2: find more cuttings over there, and the gathering goes pretty efficiently. 182 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 3: Okay, so everybody seems happy. 183 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 1: What was the anticipated time that they were going to 184 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,079 Speaker 1: be on the island. 185 00:10:14,120 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 2: As quick as possible, and I think we could sort 186 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: of estimate that would be about three weeks. Okay, everything 187 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 2: goes well, the breadfruit looks great. What Bline's waiting for 188 00:10:25,440 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 2: is a change in wind so that he can go back. 189 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 2: He gives everyone a little bit of time and even 190 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,079 Speaker 2: does sort of a benevolent throwing of a party and 191 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 2: gives everyone time to say goodbye. To all of their 192 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 2: friends that they had made. They pack up the ship 193 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 2: and they leave on April first of the following year. 194 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 2: So now we're in seventeen eighty nine and they leave, 195 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 2: and three weeks into their long journey to Jamaica, the 196 00:10:53,520 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 2: mutiny occurs in the middle of the night. 197 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 1: So everybody is tan and full of breadfruit, and now 198 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: they're on course. Finally, they had stayed from October is 199 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: that right of eighty eight until April of eighty nine? 200 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:06,960 Speaker 1: Is that right is at the time period? Okay, so 201 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: they were there longer than just a few weeks. They 202 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:12,359 Speaker 1: were there over Christmas and into the spring. What switches 203 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: for them in the middle of the night, in the 204 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: middle of really deep water. 205 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 2: The reason behind the mutiny is the most studied element 206 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 2: of this widely known event, and one hundred books have 207 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 2: been written about the relationship between Fletcher Christian and William 208 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: bly So. 209 00:11:33,280 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: Fletcher Christian is a lieutenant under BLI and he's the 210 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: leader of this upcoming mutiny. 211 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 3: How does this even happen? 212 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: What happens is that everyone's depressed because they're having to 213 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 2: go back to their dreary lives. And what I think 214 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 2: occurs is this trickle down of trauma where BLI had 215 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: witnessed Cook's murder in Hawaii about a decade earlier, and 216 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 2: a similar sequence of events occurs on a small island 217 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 2: in Tonga, and Christian leads people ashore to get some 218 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: fresh water because they're running low, and the whole ordeal 219 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: is a disaster. They're chased off the island, and I 220 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:22,160 Speaker 2: think something triggers Bli and he just lays into Christian. 221 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 2: He'ses Christian of stealing something, and that Christian was sort 222 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 2: of noble birth and he felt like his reputation was 223 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: being tarnished. And there's a moment where we have no 224 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 2: log of Christian, but he was a lieutenant on board 225 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,199 Speaker 2: and he should have been keeping a log, and so 226 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 2: we know that he threw his log overboard, and there 227 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 2: is a moment where we think maybe he was going 228 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 2: to abandon the ship, but then he decides to do 229 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,319 Speaker 2: it in reverse, and he gathers all of his friends 230 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 2: because he's very congenial. He had a lot of friends 231 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 2: on board and garnered better following than Bli, and he 232 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 2: takes about half of the crewmen about It's like twenty 233 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 2: five of them mutiny against the rest and they lower 234 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 2: a dinghy into the water, and they put Bli into 235 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:13,839 Speaker 2: the dinghy with about seventeen of his loyal followers, and 236 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 2: they're meant to row off into the night, and Christian 237 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 2: could have put a bullet in Bly, but he decides 238 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 2: to let Fate handle what happens to Bly and the 239 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 2: other men, and then he commandeers a vessel and goes 240 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:28,719 Speaker 2: back to Tahiti. 241 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: I want to know a little bit more about Lieutenant 242 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: Fletcher Christian. He said he's of noble birth. Why is 243 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: he not the captain or whatever, the head of this 244 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: mission to begin with. 245 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 2: That's a great question, because there's something really important to 246 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: remember that. I think we picture all of these people 247 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 2: as being in their thirties and forties and fifties and sixties. 248 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 2: They're all extremely young. Bligh is in his early thirties 249 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 2: as the commanding officer, and Fletcher Christian is ten years younger. 250 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 2: And one of the reasons that Christian is on board 251 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: and Christian was very intelligent we have records of him 252 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 2: doing very well in school, is that his family was 253 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 2: of noble birth, but they had lost all of their money, 254 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 2: and so it was a good way to make money 255 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 2: and earn prestige in the Age of Discovery was to 256 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,480 Speaker 2: join as a higher ranked officer. 257 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: But isn't this unusual that someone is at that rank 258 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: to then just decide to lead a bunch of fifteen 259 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: year olds and sort of n'er do well. 260 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 3: Maybe on a mutiny. 261 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: And they got the numbers, so they got twenty five 262 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: out of forty people to agree to this. 263 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 5: Right. 264 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, this psychology there is fascinating and no one has 265 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 2: been able to perfectly unpack it. But I think this 266 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 2: is where that death by a thousand cuts starts to 267 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 2: play in. Is that Bly had been needling him with 268 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 2: insults for over a year. And there is one theory 269 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: that I elaborate on in the book that the idea 270 00:14:57,280 --> 00:15:00,280 Speaker 2: of a mutiny had been put in Christian's brain even 271 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 2: before he left, because his older brother had been a 272 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 2: participant in a mutiny on a merchant vessel and basically 273 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,359 Speaker 2: warned him be careful who you trust. And this imagery 274 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 2: of a caged animal starts to become pervasive, and I 275 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 2: think it's this mental breakdown is essentially what happens to Christian. 276 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 1: Does a bond form with this group of men, Do 277 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: any of them become romantically involved with these Tahitian women. 278 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:33,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, all of them found a blood brothers in friends 279 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 2: and then had a wonderful time with the Tahitian women. 280 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 2: Christian did sleep with a variety of women. I think 281 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 2: the Hollywood version is that he met this woman Malatua, 282 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 2: and they fell deeply in love and it was a 283 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 2: Romeo and Juliette situation. That really wasn't the case. We 284 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 2: can't substantially prove that he made some sort of vow 285 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 2: to her. But when they return, he seeks this one 286 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 2: woman out, in particular Malatua. 287 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: This is going to sound very naive. Couldn't they have 288 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,280 Speaker 1: just asked to go back? I mean, is it their 289 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: right to go back? At some point? 290 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 2: When you're in the Navy, you're bound by very specific rules. 291 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 2: So if you didn't go back with Bly to the 292 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: New World and then onto England, you would have been 293 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 2: a deserter, okay, And if you were caught, it would 294 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 2: have been perceived as treason. You would have been court 295 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 2: martialed and likely you would have been hanged. 296 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:21,600 Speaker 3: Okay. 297 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: So when we last heard from blythe he was in 298 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:27,320 Speaker 1: a dinghy with seventeen other people. 299 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 3: Is that right? That's correct, Is it near Tonga that 300 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 3: they're a drift? 301 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 2: Yes, a drift and you know it's four in the morning, 302 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 2: it's still dark out. All of these men are put 303 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 2: in a dinghy, which they call a cutter, and they 304 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 2: disappear into the night, and then the bounty is commandeered 305 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 2: back to Tahiti and that's when Fletcher Christian's obsession with 306 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 2: being caught begins. It's almost microscopic at the beginning, but 307 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: what he decides is that he can't stay on Tahiti 308 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: because when he's found, he will no doubt be dragged 309 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 2: back to England and hanged for his crime of treason. 310 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 2: So he decides he's going to take any Tahitian friends 311 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 2: that want to come along. They're going to settle a 312 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 2: different island, okay, And then he gets it in his 313 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 2: head that he's going to create a colony for the 314 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 2: British Crown, and he calls his settlement Fort George, after 315 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:22,240 Speaker 2: the King of England. And they find an island, Tubuai, 316 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 2: that's settled by the Tubauayans, which are cousins of the Tahitians, 317 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:30,400 Speaker 2: and things go horribly wrong there very. 318 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: Quickly, as one would expect trying to settle an island 319 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: that's already been settled exactly. 320 00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 2: So he goes back to Tahiti again, and at that 321 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 2: point his fellow mutineers are like, you know what, Christian like, 322 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,879 Speaker 2: We're done, We're exhausted. We've been building this colony. We 323 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:47,399 Speaker 2: don't want to do this anymore. We just want to 324 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 2: stay in Tahiti, and if we get caught, so be it. 325 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: But eight of them go with Christian to try to 326 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 2: find an uninhabited island, and along goes six Polynesian men 327 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 2: and around dozen women. And that's when the real story 328 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 2: of Pitcaren begins, because ultimately they will find an uninhabited 329 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 2: island called pit Karen. But the obsession with being caught 330 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 2: continues because did Blie survive He was a pretty wily. 331 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: Navigator evadinghy with seventeen other people. 332 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 2: Yes, And that's the obsession begins to grow. Is one 333 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,640 Speaker 2: day on pit Karen, is Fletcher Christian going to see 334 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,360 Speaker 2: a tall ship on the horizon coming to take them 335 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 2: away and hang them? Is he going to disgrace his 336 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 2: family back home of Noble Earth? So it's fun to 337 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,439 Speaker 2: leave Bli's fate as a question mark until later in 338 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 2: the story. 339 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 1: Would Britain care that much about a merchant ship with 340 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: forty men to then risk a lot to go send 341 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: somebody to find out what the heck happened to these guys? 342 00:18:54,160 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 2: Yes, they cared a lot. In fact us gets back 343 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: to England. So should I guess? Should I just spoil 344 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,199 Speaker 2: the bly? I'm gonna spoil the bly stuff. 345 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: You can go ahead and spoil it. I can already 346 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: tell because he's a master navigator. He survived in this dingy. 347 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 2: He did. And what's interesting is that this is what 348 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 2: I knew that I had to write a book, because 349 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 2: the fly's journey in itself could be a whole book. Yeah, 350 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: so he's in the dinghy. They have pieces of bread, 351 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:29,439 Speaker 2: a little bit of water, a few logs, and what 352 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,919 Speaker 2: ultimately happens is they make it all the way to 353 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 2: Tea More four thousand miles away. 354 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: How is that possible without eating one of each other? 355 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: I don't understand they really made it that far. 356 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 6: They took all the bread, which they had five worth 357 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 6: of bread, and they rationed it so that they would 358 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 6: all eat like an eighth of an ounce of bread 359 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 6: each a day. 360 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 3: Is this the bread fruit with all the protein or bread, bread. 361 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:12,520 Speaker 2: Actual loaves of bread. 362 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 3: Oh well, they must have been skeletons when they arrived. 363 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 2: They were. But what they got to do was stop 364 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,439 Speaker 2: in the Great Barrier reef along the way, where they 365 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 2: could pick crab and oysters. So there was a moment 366 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 2: where they weren't in complete open water where they could 367 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 2: get sustenance. But it rained almost the entire time, which 368 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 2: sounds like a curse, but that's actually the reason why 369 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 2: they survived, because they were able to have fresh water. 370 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 3: Did he know where he was going? Do you think? 371 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 3: Did you get that impression? 372 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 2: He absolutely did, because they tried to stop on another 373 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 2: Polynesian island and the only death amongst those men was 374 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 2: that they were trying to get water and food and 375 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 2: they were chased off the island by spears and one 376 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 2: of them was speared in the throat. Was so then 377 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,000 Speaker 2: he vowed to not stop on any other Polynesian islands. 378 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 2: But he was so good at plotting using stars that 379 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 2: he was like, I am going to take us all 380 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 2: the way to safety to the Dutch East Indies. Okay, 381 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 2: So ultimately they all end up in Batavia, which is Jakarta, 382 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 2: and they all are ferried back to England on Dutch 383 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 2: vessels in batches. So there's room for three of them 384 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 2: on the first one, so Blagos, and then there's room 385 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: for a few more, and a few more go and 386 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 2: Black gets back and he tells everyone the story, and 387 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 2: the Crown is incensed. They are angry at what happened. 388 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 2: And then they take one of their warships called the Pandora, 389 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 2: and they take it all the way to Tahiti with 390 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 2: the Crown's most notorious captain, Captain Edward Edwards great name, 391 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: And they go all the way to Tahiti looking for 392 00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 2: the men. And when they get there, they find the 393 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 2: men who had bowed out from looking for a pick heron, 394 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 2: and they round them up and they put them in 395 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 2: the brig And what happens is the Pandora hits a 396 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 2: reef near Australia, sinks, a quarter of those crewmen die, 397 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 2: some of the prisoners die, and they do the same 398 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 2: open water journey that blinded to Batavia in repeat. 399 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: Wow, the terrible luck. I guess that wasn't that unusual though. 400 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: People hit icebergs and people hit rocks, and it was 401 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: just so much more mysterious than it is now. 402 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 2: It's been really fun to take the entire crew and 403 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 2: see what happened to them after the whole bounty story occurred. 404 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 2: You know, of course nine of them ended up on 405 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 2: pick Hearen, and we'll unpack what happens to all of them. 406 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 2: It's really interesting. The loyalists. You know, some of them 407 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 2: went out on a mission two years after returning from 408 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 2: the bounty and they died on that mission, or they 409 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 2: were involved in another mutiny, or it was just a 410 00:22:54,640 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 2: completely reckless existed. And yeah, we were pretty much guaranteed death. 411 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 3: So does Edward Edwards with his great name, does he 412 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 3: die on this wreck? 413 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 2: No? He makes it out. 414 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: Does the crown say, well, say lovey, we're going to 415 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: give up on finding Fletcher Christian or is there another 416 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: effort made? 417 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 2: They decide that the bounty was lost at sea, because 418 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 2: what happens is they grabbed the leftover men in Tahiti, 419 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:29,480 Speaker 2: put them in the brig and then zigzag through Polynesia 420 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 2: looking for them, stopping on every island, combing the entire 421 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 2: destination for three whole months. They never find them, So 422 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 2: they decide that the bounty went down and. 423 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: Pit Karen tell me a little bit about that. That's 424 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 1: an uncharted island where how could they not spot them? 425 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:51,520 Speaker 2: So pitt Karen already had a name before Christian and 426 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 2: the other mutineers found it. And the reason it had 427 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,879 Speaker 2: a name was that there was a captain a couple 428 00:23:56,960 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 2: decades earlier, Captain Carter It, who had a youngmanshipman on board, 429 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,359 Speaker 2: who was fifteen, whose last name was Piccern, whose father 430 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 2: was a quite well known navy officer, and this young 431 00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: boy spotted a small island about the size of Central 432 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 2: Park in New York City, and they jotted it down. 433 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 2: They did not go on shore. There was no one 434 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 2: living on it, but there was proof of fresh water. 435 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 2: But at that time longitudinal readings were prone to being 436 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 2: inaccurate because you needed to use time to calculate it. 437 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 2: So they got the latitude right, but they got the 438 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 2: longitude wrong, two hundred miles wrong. And what ultimately happens 439 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: is in early seventeen to ninety, Christian and his band 440 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: of mutineers and Tehuitians find pick Errin Island go ashore 441 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 2: deem it habitable and the bounty is burned so that 442 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 2: no one can find them, and they purposely marooned themselves 443 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 2: on the island after they think that they can sustain themselves. 444 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 2: And fast forward eighteen years and you have an American 445 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,920 Speaker 2: merchant vessel. They were sealers, so at this time it's 446 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 2: like Nantucket is booming with whalers and sealers. And one 447 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,280 Speaker 2: of the ships is in a storm and has lost 448 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 2: his way. And there's an American captain, maybe Folger, who 449 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 2: sees this bump of land and they're very low on supplies, 450 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 2: and he's like, you know, I'm not an explorer. I 451 00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 2: really don't want to get into this, but we should 452 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 2: go on get some fresh water. And as they get closer, 453 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 2: they see a fire burning and they're like, oh my gosh, 454 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 2: what is happening. I can't believe people live here. This 455 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 2: is so wildly remote. And then three young boys in 456 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 2: a little out rigger canoe emerge from the island and 457 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 2: pull up next to Fulger ship and they speak perfect English. 458 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,239 Speaker 2: Imagine being nine thousand miles away from Great Britain and 459 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 2: you see these Polynesian look boys speaking proper British English. 460 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 2: It was completely confusing, and flashed forward an hour when 461 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 2: he starts talking to them, and he puzzled it altogether 462 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 2: that he has solved the biggest nautical mystery of the time, 463 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,479 Speaker 2: which is whatever happened to the Bauncie and Fletcher Christian. 464 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: So these are the children of the Tahitian women and 465 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: the British sailors who all left Tahiti and went to 466 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: pick Karen. 467 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 3: Well. 468 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 2: Interestingly, when they arrived on the island, the mutineers, Christian 469 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 2: to Mutaneers, and the Tahitian women, there are twenty eight 470 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 2: of them, nine men, and in eighteen oh eight, eighteen 471 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 2: years later, eighteen years of solitude, only one of the 472 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,480 Speaker 2: men is left, and the documents say it's about three 473 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 2: or four women. It's harder with the women, unfortunately, because 474 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 2: history marginalizes women of color so much, but it's about 475 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 2: three or four. So of the twenty eight, there are 476 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 2: four of them left. 477 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 3: Wow, why, I mean, what was the mystery? 478 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 2: Well, Folger asked this man immediately when he realizes that 479 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 2: the mystery of the bounty has been solved, where is 480 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,240 Speaker 2: everyone else? And he says, swept away by desperate contentions? 481 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 3: Who's going to rule the island? 482 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 2: So they all murdered each other? 483 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: Okay, hold on the big ten million dollar question. Did 484 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: Fletcher Christian become one of these men who survived. 485 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 2: So it was really The second chapter of the book 486 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 2: puts the mystery out there. Who is the final man? 487 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 2: Who if in this game of real life survivor, is 488 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 2: the winner and sole survivor of this PI care and experiment. 489 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 2: And of course I don't tell you until the end 490 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 2: of the book, but you meet all of the other characters, 491 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 2: because then the book goes back in time and starts 492 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 2: from the beginning. So you meet Christian, of course, Is 493 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 2: it Christian that's the final survivor? Is it Quintal the psychopath? 494 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:59,919 Speaker 2: Is it Young the Bookish Bible thumper? Is it McCoy 495 00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 2: the drunk? And you meet all these characters, and then 496 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,280 Speaker 2: you're sort of left to figure it out. And I 497 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 2: resolve it at the end and I explain who it is. 498 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 2: But when Folger, the American captain, asks the sole survivor, 499 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 2: who are you? He doesn't say because he doesn't want 500 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 2: to get in trouble, and he uses a code name. 501 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 2: He uses the name Adams instead. 502 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 3: Can you give us a hint? People are gonna want 503 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 3: to know, They're gonna they're gonna get mad at me. 504 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:29,439 Speaker 2: I'm going to give you a hint. So it's not 505 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 2: the patent the evil person that wins, and it's not 506 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 2: the good guy either, So it's that shade of gray 507 00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: character and that kind of whittles it down to a 508 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,680 Speaker 2: couple of the other guys that you meet. 509 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: Okay, so someone other than Christian. So Christian gets killed. 510 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: So I'm assuming he's annoyed himself president or dictator whatever 511 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: of the island. Is that kind of the way you 512 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: would think he's led everybody there. 513 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 2: So Christian wants to create a democracy that's refreshing. It 514 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 2: is refreshing, and it's unclear if he does it because 515 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 2: of cowardice or if he does it because he genuinely 516 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,440 Speaker 2: believes in a democratic experiment. But what he does with 517 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 2: the nine men is they're all paired up with Tahitian 518 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: women and there's a group of Polynesian Menezuela. And he 519 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,959 Speaker 2: divides the island up into parcels, so everyone gets to 520 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 2: be sort of governor of their own little parcel of land. 521 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 2: And they create a chortwheel essentially, so each couple is 522 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,760 Speaker 2: going to do the watch to watch for ships for 523 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 2: a week up at lookout Point, and then they can 524 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 2: return to their parcel and communal gardens are created. Everyone 525 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 2: scours the timbers of the bounty to create cottages for themselves. 526 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,040 Speaker 1: Oh sounds idyllic actually, and then they fish and what 527 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 1: else is available. 528 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 3: Resources to them food wise on the island. 529 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 2: Well, what they quickly discover was that there's evidence of 530 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 2: a human touch on the island before they had arrived. 531 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 2: There was evidence of gardening and a certain sort of 532 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: geometry that doesn't exist in nature. And it turns out 533 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 2: that it had been used in some capacity, maybe an 534 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 2: obsidian mine or away station, or even maybe people that 535 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 2: live there proto Polynesian, So a thousand years before the bounty, 536 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 2: and so all of these pieces of food, fruits and 537 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,120 Speaker 2: vegetables were growing abundantly. 538 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 3: Amazing. Where does this go wrong? Because it goes wrong, 539 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 3: horribly wrong. 540 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 2: So the first year goes great. The first year everyone 541 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 2: is living in harmony Malatua. The wife of Christian has 542 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,040 Speaker 2: a son almost nine months to the day after they arrive, 543 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:48,760 Speaker 2: and everything feels glorious and hopeful, and then something terrible happens. 544 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 2: One of the women is tending to the garden and 545 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 2: she is gored to death by a goat. Oh no, 546 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 2: she's killed, and it throws the balance of the island off. 547 00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 2: Because her husband decides that he needs a new bride. 548 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 2: But of course, who could it be as different as 549 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,719 Speaker 2: the Tahitians were with their perception of love and sex, 550 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,920 Speaker 2: the British really still had it ingrained to them that 551 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 2: it was one man per wife, and there were a 552 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: few Tuhitian men on the island and they had brides 553 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 2: as well. So it's decided in a vote that one 554 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,320 Speaker 2: of the Tahitian men would have to give up his 555 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 2: wife and give him to the British man. So it's 556 00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:40,720 Speaker 2: just there's this imbalance with this woman's sudden exit from 557 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 2: the narrative, and it creates this horrible imbalance because this 558 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 2: is the moment where we start thinking about Tahiti as 559 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 2: a nation. It's a huge impact. She knew a lot 560 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 2: about medicine, she delivered the babies, she was an asset, 561 00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 2: and her departure really shifts the balance of what's going on, 562 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: and that immediately puts things into a spiraling motion and 563 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 2: creates a major schism between the Polynesian men and the 564 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 2: white men. 565 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: So the people who are left who Folger runs into 566 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: right the American merchant ship. These are children from is 567 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: it mostly children from the Tahitian women and the men, 568 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: or who are these folks who won? Essentially besides the 569 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: semi bad guy. 570 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 2: The ultimate answer is no one won. There's a moment 571 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 2: that comes a little bit later called massacre Day in 572 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: the history of the island, and that happens about two 573 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,640 Speaker 2: years after this woman dies very suddenly, and it's the 574 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 2: culmination of a lot of hostility and a lot of 575 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,520 Speaker 2: individuals die that day, and then there's a retaliative day 576 00:32:55,680 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 2: avenging those murders, and then and that is this very 577 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 2: anti Darwinian moment where the people that you think are 578 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 2: the ones who are keeping this society together, the ones 579 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 2: who have their head on their shoulders, the ones who 580 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 2: are really propelling everything forward, they're all the ones that go. 581 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 2: And then you're left with this very cruel Darwinian joke. 582 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 2: The handful of people that remain are just the ones 583 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 2: who are the drunks and the ones who don't know 584 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 2: how to survive. So it's frustrating because it doesn't feel 585 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 2: like a win, but it is sort of very human 586 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 2: and very real that the right people don't always prevail. 587 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,280 Speaker 1: So what happens Folder gets there, He finds these people, 588 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 1: they're there, So what does he leave them? 589 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 2: He does. What happens is he finds these people. There 590 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,000 Speaker 2: are four older adults, one of the British men, and 591 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 2: around three of the older Tasan women, and in those 592 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 2: eighteen years a ton of children have been born. Thirty 593 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 2: plus children have been born to all these men and women, 594 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:02,640 Speaker 2: and they're all scampering around the island. And he solves 595 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 2: the mystery, and he decides that he is going to 596 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:09,240 Speaker 2: tell the Admiralty what he's found. And he only spends 597 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 2: one day on the island with everyone, and then he 598 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 2: leaves and he makes his way to South America and 599 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 2: he's captured by the Spanish and he's put in the 600 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: Spanish colonial prison, and the story of what happens remains 601 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 2: buried for even more years, And what ultimately happens is 602 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 2: a series of rediscoveries of Pickeren by other ships who 603 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 2: didn't even know so a couple years later, other ships 604 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 2: find Pieren and they had never even heard of it. 605 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 2: So these rediscoveries keep happening, and this Adams character, the 606 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:47,399 Speaker 2: Alias Adams' final survivor. He keeps tweaking his story too, 607 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 2: to further distance himself from the mutiny. 608 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,080 Speaker 1: From Massacre Day and the mutiny and all that because 609 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 1: he doesn't want to be sent back. He does not 610 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: want to be taken after being there for decades at 611 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:58,480 Speaker 1: this point. 612 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,600 Speaker 2: Right, and so he he really hones his lie that 613 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 2: he had nothing to do with any murderers and he 614 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 2: had nothing to do with the mutiny whatsoever, and the 615 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:14,319 Speaker 2: identity of Adams remains buried for even more time. And 616 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,479 Speaker 2: then there's this bizarre plot twist in world history. In 617 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 2: the twilight years of Pikiren's solitude, they become God fearing 618 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:29,879 Speaker 2: and they turn to Christianity, and finally, when everyone's discovered 619 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 2: and the whole world knows about Pikaren, they're revealed to 620 00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 2: be the ideal society because they are devout Christians and 621 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,399 Speaker 2: they've emerged from the darkness. And finally Adams reveals who 622 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 2: he is, and then they're perceived almost as angels, angelic, 623 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 2: pious devotees of Christianity. So there's this whole plot shift. 624 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: And then as they evolve, do we have now descendants? 625 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: Because I want to get into you now and how 626 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 1: you fit into all this As a travel writer, First 627 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 1: of all I want to know is the island still there? 628 00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:12,359 Speaker 2: Yeah? So now we'll flash forward to today, pick air 629 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 2: and island is still inhabited. There are forty eight individuals 630 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 2: that live there today. They are the descendant of Fletcher 631 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:24,359 Speaker 2: Christian and the other mutineers and their Tahitian bribes, and 632 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 2: these individuals choose to remain living at the edge of 633 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 2: the planet, separated from the rest of the world. A 634 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 2: cargo freighter visits the island only four times a year 635 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 2: and brings them the goods that they need to sustain themselves. 636 00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 2: They've built homes on the island. When I visited the island, 637 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 2: there was a new refrigerator that was bringing brought to 638 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 2: the island to plug in. And I should say in 639 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,879 Speaker 2: the book the narrative actually sea size between the two, 640 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 2: so you're not reading it as half a book of 641 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 2: history and then half a book from today. So the 642 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 2: first chapter is ME on the island wondering why the 643 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 2: heck am I on this island. The second chapter is 644 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 2: FOLDER meeting the atoms Alias and the whole mystery is 645 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 2: set into motion. And then everything starts back at the beginning. 646 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 2: So I travel from America down to Tahiti. The British 647 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 2: travel from the UK down to. 648 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 7: Tahiti, and we all find our way to pick caar, 649 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 7: and then everything starts clicking closer and closer and closer 650 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 7: as you understand that the actions and the trauma sustained. 651 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 2: Two hundred years ago trickle down into how the people 652 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 2: feel today and how they view the world and how 653 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 2: they interact with me. They are curious about having visitors 654 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 2: and they encourage it. It's just takes a lot of 655 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 2: time and a lot of money. And I explain very 656 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,200 Speaker 2: upfront how it happened for me. They were starting to 657 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,240 Speaker 2: look at tourism as a way of injecting the local 658 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 2: economy with some money. So on this freighter that serves 659 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,160 Speaker 2: the island and four times a year, there are twelve 660 00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 2: berths and they're usually reserved for the pit careners to 661 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 2: get on and off the island. High schoolers actually go 662 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 2: to high school in New Zealand Wow, And so sometimes 663 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 2: their parents will go visit them, and a lot of 664 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 2: them need medical care in Tahiti. When there's a berth 665 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 2: that opens up, that's when a tourist can grab it 666 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 2: and go. And I had been reached out to by 667 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 2: a consultant and she said she had been working with 668 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:31,000 Speaker 2: the pitcareners. They're interested in having a North American journalist 669 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 2: coming to visit to write a magazine article about, you know, 670 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 2: the world's most far flong inhabited destination. Essentially wow, And 671 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,959 Speaker 2: it was just like a fun story that had photos 672 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 2: about what life is like today. And you know, you 673 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 2: can go swimming and diving, and the food is incredible 674 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 2: because you're catching your own fish, and you're pulling coconuts 675 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,840 Speaker 2: and bananas off the trees as you take a hike. 676 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:54,399 Speaker 2: And I genuinely didn't think I was going to write 677 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 2: a book, but then the experience was so unique and 678 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,800 Speaker 2: the history so riveting that I to know more. 679 00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:02,760 Speaker 3: What do they think about their history? 680 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,399 Speaker 2: I think that they perceive themselves to be the custodian 681 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 2: of the most fantastical, mystery, legendary event that has occurred 682 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 2: in nautical history, and they almost see themselves as royalty 683 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,200 Speaker 2: in a way. A lot of their Tahitian forbears were 684 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 2: Tahitian nobles, They were Tahitian noble women and the men. 685 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 2: Fletcher Christian could trace his ancestry to William the Conqueror, 686 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:35,879 Speaker 2: and they are oddities the people that live there now, 687 00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 2: and they're often invited all over the world to speak 688 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:42,319 Speaker 2: about Pickaren and to talk about life there. It's a 689 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 2: living museum. 690 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,399 Speaker 3: But not anyone can live there. 691 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:50,759 Speaker 2: They actually offer immigration opportunities. They want to keep the 692 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 2: island populated, and so you can actually apply for citizenship 693 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,200 Speaker 2: and you will actually get a stipend to build a 694 00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:03,760 Speaker 2: home there. However, the islanders don't want you to live there. 695 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 3: It's theirs, and they don't want your diseases either. I'm assuming, 696 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 3: I'm sure they don't want COVID. I mean I can't imagine. 697 00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,239 Speaker 1: That's one of the concerns of some of the other 698 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:16,920 Speaker 1: more isolated islands in areas is they don't want Westerner diseases, right. 699 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,400 Speaker 2: Correct, The island has been closed during the entirety of 700 00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 2: the pandemic, and we could say that pit Karen is 701 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 2: the only country that has never had a COVID case. 702 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 3: Is there a government, Is it a democracy? 703 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,680 Speaker 2: They have an autonomous government. Instead of calling it a president, 704 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 2: they call it the mayor, which feels apt because it's 705 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,879 Speaker 2: only forty eight people. And what I loved was that 706 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,399 Speaker 2: everyone has a title like Minister of Transportation, but that's 707 00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 2: just like guy who makes sure the road is not 708 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 2: super ready. They have like postmaster General, which is like 709 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 2: guy works at the mailbox. 710 00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: I was curious about when you said they want to 711 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: boost the economy. What is the economy in pitt Karen. 712 00:40:57,400 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 2: Well, they get a lot of taxpayer money from the UK, 713 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,760 Speaker 2: so they're well taken care of, and taxpayer dollars actually 714 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,239 Speaker 2: run the freighters to service them. But it's really hard 715 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:10,720 Speaker 2: to generate income on the island, so the government actually 716 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 2: pays everyone. It's like ten New Zealand dollars an hour 717 00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 2: for their services. So it's actually quite democratic when you 718 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 2: think about it, because the mayor and the garbage man 719 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 2: make the same amount of money. Yeah, they used to 720 00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 2: sell stamps to stamp collectors and they still do. I 721 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,399 Speaker 2: bought stamps when I was there and they're rare, right, 722 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 2: A pit care and stamp is a coveted stamp to 723 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 2: have in your collection, you know. 724 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 1: If we wrap this back around to the beginning of 725 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: the story, which started in the late seventeen hundreds, Fletcher Christian, 726 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: if I remember correctly, wanted to create an island that 727 00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: he claimed he wanted to be a British colony, and 728 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: that's kind of what's happened. I know it's not a colony, 729 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 1: but he wanted a piece of land that he would 730 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,919 Speaker 1: commit to the crown, but he wanted. 731 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 3: The freedom to do whatever the hell he wanted to do. 732 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: And it sounds like, besides getting killed, it sounds like 733 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: he was able to do that. 734 00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 2: It does in a strange way. I think that fantasy 735 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,200 Speaker 2: was fulfilled, and I think Christian is seen as the 736 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 2: architect of pit Karen, and I think that there was 737 00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:18,400 Speaker 2: an ardent desire to fulfill that destiny. There have been 738 00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 2: a lot of bumps. However, along the way. 739 00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,799 Speaker 1: What happened to Bli? Did he ever go on a 740 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: ship again? I can't imagine. 741 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 2: No. The craziest thing about Bli is that when he 742 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 2: got back to the UK, it was cleared of wrongdoing 743 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 2: and they sent Edward Edwards to go find everyone. They 744 00:42:36,239 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 2: actually sent Bly on a second breadfruit mission. 745 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,359 Speaker 3: Because the first one worked out so well. 746 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,880 Speaker 2: And he went because he was so obsessed with raising 747 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:47,320 Speaker 2: his station, and he wanted to be this famous guy, 748 00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 2: and he was born for the middle class, but he 749 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 2: desperately wanted to be a nobleman. This is the best 750 00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:57,120 Speaker 2: part is that Bli suffered several additional mutinies in his life, 751 00:42:57,560 --> 00:43:01,480 Speaker 2: ultimately became the governor of New South Wales, in Sydney. 752 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,880 Speaker 2: There was a rum rebellion there and he died in 753 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,120 Speaker 2: London of what they think was high blood pressure. 754 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,359 Speaker 1: I imagine he got a little bit of glee out 755 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: of learning what happened though to Fletcher Christian after he 756 00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 1: sent him a drift in a dinghy with seventeen other people. 757 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 2: He died right before. 758 00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 3: Oh so what is the moral of this? Is there 759 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 3: a moral? 760 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 2: The moral is that you can travel to the farthest 761 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,759 Speaker 2: recesses of the world, but you can't escape yourself. 762 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,319 Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, Catherine Miles on 763 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:41,560 Speaker 1: the serial killer who stalked women in a national park. 764 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 5: Once this tent is found, it is immediately the fog 765 00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 5: of war in the Shenandoah National Park, and the authorities 766 00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:54,400 Speaker 5: there start to make a series of catastrophically terrible and 767 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:59,959 Speaker 5: in some cases utterly indefensible decisions, including withholding from both 768 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 5: the media and partgoers and the general public that this 769 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:07,959 Speaker 5: murder had occurred for about forty eight hours. They tried 770 00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 5: to pass it off as a bear attack. 771 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,440 Speaker 1: My new book, All That Is Wicked is available for 772 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:27,640 Speaker 1: pre order now, including the audiobook. All That Is Wicked 773 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:30,280 Speaker 1: is based on our first season of tenfold War Wicked. 774 00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,399 Speaker 1: You might think you know the whole story of killer 775 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:35,799 Speaker 1: Edward Ruloff's crimes, but there's so much more. My book 776 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:39,440 Speaker 1: American Sherlock is also available. This has been an exactly 777 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,400 Speaker 1: right tenfold war Media production. The producer is Alexis Imirosi, 778 00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:47,720 Speaker 1: Our mixer is Ryo Baum. Our sound designer is Andrew Epen. 779 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is. Our composer Nick Toga did the artwork. 780 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:55,840 Speaker 1: Ilsa Brink designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, 781 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,840 Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on in 782 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,480 Speaker 1: Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter 783 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: at tenfold more and If you know of a historical 784 00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:10,080 Speaker 1: crime that could use some attention, especially if it happened 785 00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:14,120 Speaker 1: in your family, email us at info at tenfoldmore Wicked 786 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,840 Speaker 1: dot com. We'll also take your suggestions for true crime 787 00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:19,360 Speaker 1: authors for Wicked Words