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Speaker 1: Philip conspiracy realists. We're coming in Little Caesar style, hot

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Speaker 1: and ready with a classic from twenty twenty as we

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Speaker 1: celebrate the holidays and the passage of one year to another.

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Speaker 1: We are not the experts on the NBA, but we're

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Speaker 1: pretty good at figuring out conspiracies. And in this one, guys,

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Speaker 1: if you remember, not an episode per se, but an interview,

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Speaker 1: we teamed up with a guy named Tim Livingston who

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Speaker 1: introduced us to one of the biggest conspiracies in the

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Speaker 1: entire history of the NBA.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this official named Tim Donahy you back in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and seven got arrested for betting on games he

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Speaker 2: was officiating.

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Speaker 3: Whoops, wepe.

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Speaker 4: Was this the podcast series that this dude did with Tenderfoot?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so this is Whistleblower.

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Speaker 4: Really excellent deep dive and it goes into sports betting,

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Speaker 4: sports fixing conversations we've had in the past with another

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Speaker 4: expert on the subject. Now that I'm thinking about it,

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Speaker 4: his name is escaping me. But this one dude that

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Speaker 4: we talked to who is like all sports are rigged?

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Speaker 3: Yes, m mmmmm hmm.

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Speaker 1: Well, and Brian Dewey that's it.

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Speaker 2: And then we all watched this past year in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five, when there's a crazy scandal with Chauncey Billups

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Speaker 2: and Terry Rosier I don't know how to say his name,

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Speaker 2: ro O z I E. R. And a bunch of

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Speaker 2: other players that were caught up in a casino scandal

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Speaker 2: or a you know, like a do it yourself casino

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Speaker 2: style betting scandal where they'd bring in famous folks to

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Speaker 2: play you know, I guess poker with and stuff like that,

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Speaker 2: and then they would just take everybody's money.

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Speaker 5: Hey, do you like money?

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Speaker 3: Do you like the NBA?

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Speaker 1: This is the interview for you. We can't say enough

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Speaker 1: good stuff about Whistleblower. Check it out. It's available on

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Speaker 1: every podcast platform that you dig personally. Add you know,

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Speaker 1: they absolutely did it. Just spoiler for the record, the gambling,

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Speaker 1: the conspiracy stuff is real. Tim l is correct.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, and Tim is a sports journalist out there in

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Speaker 2: Los Angeles, or at least he was, so he really

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Speaker 2: knows what he's talking about. They did their work, you know,

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Speaker 2: to dig into this two thousand and seven thing. I

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Speaker 2: just want to put everybody else on one other show.

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Speaker 2: So if you listen to this episode you like it,

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Speaker 2: Maybe go check out Whistleblower. And then there's another one

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Speaker 2: Tim made called the Raven that you guys, it has

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Speaker 2: to do with a double murder that occurred right after

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Speaker 2: a Super Bowl in Atlanta. And then that was a

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Speaker 2: whole other story that was just pretty insane about Ray

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Speaker 2: Lewis and like potentially him being involved in a double murder,

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Speaker 2: double homicide.

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Speaker 5: Rather from UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history

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Speaker 5: is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now

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Speaker 5: or learn the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 5: A production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show. They call me ben Mi Compatriots

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Speaker 1: Matt and Noel are on adventures, but we'll be returning

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Speaker 1: very soon. We're joined as always with our super producer Paul,

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Speaker 1: Mission Control decand most importantly, you are you. You are here,

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Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 1: We're diving into a strange one today, fellow conspiracy realist.

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Speaker 1: It's a story that you may be familiar with if

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Speaker 1: you are if you are a huge fan of sports.

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Speaker 1: It's a story that you may have heard a headline about,

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Speaker 1: but you I've never seen it fully explored. We're diving

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Speaker 1: into a world of gambling. We're diving into the depths

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Speaker 1: of corruption, into the heights of financial shenanigans and ethics violations.

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Speaker 1: It's a mystery that is being unraveled that occurred here

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Speaker 1: in the US not too long ago. What are we

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Speaker 1: talking about? Well, to answer that question, we're going to

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Speaker 1: defer to an expert, as we always try to do.

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Speaker 1: You know that we want to bring you primary sources,

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Speaker 1: people with experience and expertise in a field. And that's

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Speaker 1: why today I am over the moon to welcome to

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Speaker 1: the show our guest, the sports journalist, writer and creator

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Speaker 1: of the Whistleblower podcast, Tim Livingston. Tim, thanks for coming

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Speaker 1: on the show today.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me Ben So, you and I I.

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Speaker 1: Have talked a bit off air about this story, which

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Speaker 1: as the podcast is still coming out. Whistleblower is a

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Speaker 1: term that I think a lot of people understand nowadays

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Speaker 1: in the West. But Whistleblower, the podcast is diving into

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Speaker 1: a very specific mystery. Could you tell us, just briefly,

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Speaker 1: I want to be careful not to spoil too much,

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Speaker 1: just briefly, what whistle Blower is about. How this story begins.

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Speaker 6: The story begins with a former whistleblower, and not the

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Speaker 6: one that we know about now. He has nothing to

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Speaker 6: do with Russia or China or anywhere else. He's a

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Speaker 6: former NBA referee named Tim Donahy and Tim Donahey for

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Speaker 6: sports fans. Sports fans know Tim Donahey as the most

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Speaker 6: disgrace official in American sports history. I think he has

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Speaker 6: that title, and whoever's in second place, it's a pretty

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Speaker 6: distance second. Tim Donnahe is looked upon as a pariah,

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Speaker 6: and rightfully so. However, when he got into trouble, he

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Speaker 6: blew the whistle on That's where we're going with this, Ben.

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Speaker 6: He blew the whistle, the proverbial whistle on a much

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Speaker 6: bigger systemic issue within the NBA, and that issue was

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Speaker 6: a culture of refereeing in which players, coaches, and team

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Speaker 6: personnel were fraternizing with referees, creating relationships with referees where

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Speaker 6: just referees as the police of this game, we're not

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Speaker 6: being policed at all. And it led to, in my opinion,

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Speaker 6: corruption on an unbelievable scale, both with donnahe himself and

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Speaker 6: with other referees at the time.

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Speaker 3: And so that's what we dive into.

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Speaker 6: It's okay, the narrative has always been Donna, he was

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Speaker 6: a rogue criminal. It was just this guy, He's the

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Speaker 6: only one. And for me, I just never believed it.

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Speaker 6: I've watched so many NBA games that something just didn't

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Speaker 6: feel right. And so that's where we dive in from

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Speaker 6: is what happened, what happened with donnahe himself, and then

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Speaker 6: part two is what happened with his with his former employer,

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Speaker 6: what happened with the NBA, What actually happened behind the scenes.

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Speaker 6: What now can we look at thirteen years ago and

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Speaker 6: peel back layer by layer and understand on a much

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Speaker 6: deeper level. And that's where this story gets really crazy,

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Speaker 6: because thirteen years later, more people are willing to talk,

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Speaker 6: more information has come to light that might have trickled

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Speaker 6: into the news at some point, but that even the

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Speaker 6: most ardent sports fans don't really know. And so that's

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Speaker 6: where we're going with this, and that's the crux the podcast.

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Speaker 1: So one thing that's fascinating to me about this is

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Speaker 1: your inspiration because it sounds like you, you know, being

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Speaker 1: a fan, very familiar with the bones of the story,

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Speaker 1: or at least the headlines we saw reported back in

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Speaker 1: oh back in two thousand and seven. I believe it

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Speaker 1: started really the rubber really started hitting the road. But

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Speaker 1: it sounds like you had a tingle of your spider

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Speaker 1: sense almost right, a discrepancy. Something was rotten in Denmark.

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Speaker 1: There was a glitch in the matrix. One thing that

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Speaker 1: fascinates me about this is there's a line in the

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Speaker 1: very beginning of the first episode where you talk about

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Speaker 1: how referees are supposed to be kind of shadows, right,

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Speaker 1: almost non entities on the court. Referees don't get noticed

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Speaker 1: until they make a call that you don't like, Right,

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Speaker 1: isn't that how it usually works out?

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Speaker 3: Exactly?

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Speaker 6: And what a weird profession, right, You get booed out

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Speaker 6: by thousands upon thousands of people every single night. You

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Speaker 6: only get noticed when you mess up. You get no

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Speaker 6: accolades when you're the best of what you do, and

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Speaker 6: being the best to what you do means that you're invisible.

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Speaker 6: It means that people have no idea who you are.

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Speaker 6: It means that the game they just watched was they

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Speaker 6: watched it without any inkling that there were officials, right,

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Speaker 6: it was just the players playing the game. And that

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Speaker 6: means that you did the best job you could have done,

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Speaker 6: the game was being played in its purest form.

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Speaker 3: However, for basketball fans.

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Speaker 6: We know that every single game that we've ever watched,

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Speaker 6: there's been at least three or four times you're going

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Speaker 6: to scream with the TV that that call was bull right.

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Speaker 6: That's we all do it as sports fans. We can't

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Speaker 6: help it. We're all couch coaches or whatever you want

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Speaker 6: to call us. And in the NBA, that's what exists

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Speaker 6: on every single night. And for me as a fan

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Speaker 6: growing up, I love basketball. I played basketball my entire life,

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Speaker 6: and so I've been cognizant of the effect that a

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Speaker 6: referee can have on a game since I was five

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Speaker 6: years old. And when I was a kid, I used

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Speaker 6: to have a really bad temper and I used to

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Speaker 6: scream at referees. I used to get so mad at

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Speaker 6: referees when they didn't make the call that I thought

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Speaker 6: was right in direct league, right, these guys are getting

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Speaker 6: paid ten dollars an hour back in the early nineties,

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Speaker 6: and they don't want to be there, and last thing

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Speaker 6: they wanted some little asshl screaming at him. I was

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Speaker 6: that kid, And then as I got older, I realized

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Speaker 6: that these are human beings that you can manipulate them,

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Speaker 6: right that if you're nice to them, if you chat

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Speaker 6: with them before the game, if you make them feel special,

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Speaker 6: they are going to give you the benefit of more calls.

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Speaker 6: So I've been fascinated by that, by the ability to

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Speaker 6: influence a referee for my entire life and for this story,

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Speaker 6: though I having played basketball my whole life and having

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Speaker 6: been in love with the sport forever, watching some of

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Speaker 6: these games that took place in the early two thousands

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Speaker 6: and mid two thousands before the scandal came out, before

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Speaker 6: it was exposed that donnihe before donnihe exposed the idea.

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Speaker 6: I can't say that he exposed everything, right, He just

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Speaker 6: gave us an inkling of the culture and of how

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Speaker 6: things operate behind the scenes. When that all came out,

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Speaker 6: it made sense to me. And because I watched some

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Speaker 6: of these games, some of those games were not right.

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Speaker 6: They weren't officials having a bad day. In my opinion,

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Speaker 6: there was no way there was motive. There was something

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Speaker 6: behind it, and that's what we're exploring in this podcast.

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Speaker 6: Ben that you mentioned I'm pretty transparent about like that's

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Speaker 6: where I'm coming from. I'm not coming from I'm a journalist,

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Speaker 6: but also I have eyes and I've watched these games,

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Speaker 6: and so I'm not shy about the fact that I'm

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Speaker 6: entering this investigation with bias, because you can't tell me

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Speaker 6: the two thousand and two Western Conference Finals were three

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Speaker 6: officials just having a bad game. I won't believe you.

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Speaker 6: It didn't happen. It wasn't just one or two bad calls.

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Speaker 6: It was an incredible amount an entire game, and especially

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Speaker 6: in an entire fourth quarters worth of egregious miscalls. And

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Speaker 6: for me, that's where I approached this destigation, where something

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Speaker 6: was something was amiss, what was it?

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Speaker 3: How did it work?

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Speaker 6: And that's what we really explore on the podcast.

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Speaker 1: You've raised a fascinating point here. It's something that I immediately

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Speaker 1: thought of when you and I were first talking off

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Speaker 1: air a few weeks ago about whistleblower and you were

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Speaker 1: telling us some of the nuts and bolts of the situation,

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Speaker 1: which are frankly disturbing. I started thinking about the tremendous

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Speaker 1: paradox that's inherent and being a referee, one of the

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Speaker 1: most powerful people on the court, is one of the

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Speaker 1: least compensated. They're making peanuts, you know, you get what

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Speaker 1: is it. I think it's an average of one hundred

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Speaker 1: and fifty thousand on the low end per year to

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Speaker 1: a little over five hundred thousand or so. And that's like,

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Speaker 1: depending on how you break down the math, that's what

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Speaker 1: some of the players are making. You know, that's like

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Speaker 1: a fraction of what they're making in a game. And

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Speaker 1: so I could see very easily the opportunity for someone

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Speaker 1: who is unethical to whether through character or stick, incentivize

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Speaker 1: the referee to make a little bit more scratch. And

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Speaker 1: we know you know this. This reminded me a little

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Speaker 1: bit of the conspiracy theories regarding Michael Jordan and gambling, right,

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Speaker 1: which is which is something we've explored a past episode.

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Speaker 1: I'm ted talking a little bit here, but I wanted

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Speaker 1: to outline that because I think a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: myself included, to be transparent, didn't really consider the discrepancy there,

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Speaker 1: the fact that like you know, I'm I'm making two

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Speaker 1: hundred and fifty grand for the whole year. That's what

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna make unless I'm moonlight right somewhere else. And

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Speaker 1: these folks that I'm calling that I'm making calls on

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Speaker 1: no matter what happens to them win or lose. They're

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Speaker 1: multi millionaires, so it doesn't seem like it would take

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Speaker 1: much for the push. But okay, So the idea of

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Speaker 1: rigged sports, it's tremendously controversial because any fan of sports,

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Speaker 1: any fan of any sport, wants the rules to be

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Speaker 1: followed right. Ostensibly, we want the game to be competitive,

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Speaker 1: we want the athletes at the top of their abilities,

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Speaker 1: and we want the rules followed so that a win

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Speaker 1: is a real win and not invalidated and not turning

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Speaker 1: into some like mafia esque con job. Could you tell

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Speaker 1: us a little bit about what Doneghey was going through

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Speaker 1: that pushed him to this like before, like okay, so

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Speaker 1: he clearly was a crooked ref There's no question about that.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct?

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Speaker 3: No question?

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Speaker 6: And to your point, think about it, right, if going

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Speaker 6: back to the Michael Jordan Bulls, think about how much

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Speaker 6: power referee has Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen stuff from

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Speaker 6: the court. A referee could give both of them two

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Speaker 6: technical fouls for no reason right when they walk on

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Speaker 6: the court, eject them both from the game, and the

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Speaker 6: Bulls have to play the rest of the game without

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Speaker 6: Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen. No referee has ever done that,

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Speaker 6: and probably ever will. That's a little bit too obvious,

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Speaker 6: But think about how much power a referee has, right

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Speaker 6: because he can also call two ticki tack fouls on

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Speaker 6: Scottie Pippen and two ticki tack fouls on Michael Jordan

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Speaker 6: and force them to watch the rest of the first

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Speaker 6: quarter from the bench. And if you're betting against the spread,

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Speaker 6: that's hugely advantageous. If you're a referee and you have

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Speaker 6: money on the game, right, so are against the bulls

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Speaker 6: in that game. So a referee has incredible and incredible

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Speaker 6: amount of power. And for those for sports fans who

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Speaker 6: don't want to believe that there's any possible corruption in sports,

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Speaker 6: just using basketball as an example, the referees, to your point,

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Speaker 6: make tenth, one twentieth, sometimes one fiftieth as much as

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Speaker 6: the guys who were yelling at them, screaming in their

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Speaker 6: face night after night after night. How can they not

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Speaker 6: over time or immediately create how can they not be biased?

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Speaker 3: Right? These guys aren't robots, they're humans.

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Speaker 6: And with guys that have ego like Tim donahe that

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Speaker 6: and again I don't think donnahe's the only referee that

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Speaker 6: was fixing games over the course of history basketball. I

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Speaker 6: think that would be incredibly naive to believe that.

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Speaker 3: The question for me is how many were there and

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Speaker 3: how high up did it go?

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Speaker 6: So in episode two, we interviewed Michael Franzis, you might

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Speaker 6: have seen in Netflix's Fear City, one of the most

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Speaker 6: brilliant members of the Mafia of all time. A guy

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Speaker 6: who is running schemes that were making millions upon millions

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Speaker 6: of dollars a day and just a very He was

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Speaker 6: a criminal, but he was a damn good one. And

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Speaker 6: he talks about how he had two NBA referees on

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Speaker 6: his payroll in the nineties that weren't Tim Dannihi, Right,

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Speaker 6: So there's just this is one monster with two NBA

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Speaker 6: reps on his payroll that were not the guy that

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Speaker 6: we're focusing on. And that gives you an idea of

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Speaker 6: a And this is what Fretsy says. It was easy

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Speaker 6: to fix a game. It's not hard when it's against

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Speaker 6: the spread. It's hard if you need one team to win, right.

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Speaker 6: So some of the games that I'm referencing from the

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Speaker 6: playoffs and finals where there was the foul discrepancies you know,

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Speaker 6: there's one team is shooting sixty free throws, there are

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Speaker 6: teams shooting thirty.

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Speaker 3: That that's where it gets egregious.

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Speaker 6: And as fans, you know, those are the games that

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Speaker 6: we still talk about to this day because we a

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Speaker 6: lot of us don't feel that those were on the

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Speaker 6: up and up. But when it comes just to the spread,

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Speaker 6: that's easy. If the Bulls are supposed to win by

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Speaker 6: by ten and you got a bet on the other

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Speaker 6: team to cover that spread for you know, if the

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Speaker 6: Bulls need to win by nine or less for you

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Speaker 6: to win your bet, yeah, call two quick fouls of

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Speaker 6: Michael Jordan, put them the bench, and you're probably in

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Speaker 6: really good shape for the rest that that right there

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Speaker 6: probably affects the point spread by three or four points immediately.

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Speaker 6: And if the Bulls are up by eleven and in

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Speaker 6: the fourth quarter, start calling more thousand than Bulls, and

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Speaker 6: you as a referee can really dictate whether the Bulls

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Speaker 6: win by eight points or twelve points. So that's exactly

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Speaker 6: and where that's where it gets interesting. And that's where

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Speaker 6: we as fans have to look at the system and

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Speaker 6: look at how easy it is for these guys to

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Speaker 6: manipulate a game and put in The NBA has put

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Speaker 6: in checks and balances since Donahey, they've done an okay

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Speaker 6: job of improving the system. There are a lot more

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Speaker 6: referees who are anonymous, who are invisible, who do a

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Speaker 6: great job. However, there are still referees that have been

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Speaker 6: refereeing for twenty five plus years who one of them.

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Speaker 6: Scott Foster was Donnihe's best friend, and him and Tim

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Speaker 6: Donna He talked one hundred and thirty four times in

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Speaker 6: the phone at the height of the scheme from October

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Speaker 6: two thousand and six to March two thousand and seven,

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Speaker 6: on the phone that donnae He used as what the

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Speaker 6: FBI said, Donna he used this phone for gambling, primarily

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Speaker 6: for gambling or later purposes. And Scott Foster's the top

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Speaker 6: official in the NBA, right, So there's all this circumstantial

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Speaker 6: evidence that points to Scott Foster and Donnahe having a

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Speaker 6: relationship that it minimally needs to be explored further. And

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Speaker 6: this guy's being when we watch the NBA Finals this year,

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Speaker 6: Scott Foster's gonna ref two of those games. And that's

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Speaker 6: the guy that I'm supposed to trust has integrity and

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Speaker 6: then I'm supposed to trust, you know, it's going to

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Speaker 6: create an even playing field for both these teams and

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Speaker 6: not let his ego or bias or anything else infiltrate.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I don't. We got a long way to go.

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Speaker 6: But yeah, when it comes to the scandal this time

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Speaker 6: in two thousand and seven, I think it went and

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Speaker 6: this is what we explored in the podcast. I believe

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Speaker 6: that it went really, really deep, and it's really fascinating

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Speaker 6: what Donnie he was doing. And then it's also for

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Speaker 6: me on the conspiracy side, way more interesting what the league,

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Speaker 6: what the NBA was doing to make this problem go away.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, let's let's explore a couple of those points.

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Speaker 1: So first off, to me, it's still you probably hear

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Speaker 1: me laughing in the background, folks, It's still hilarious to

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Speaker 1: me when you tim were first telling us in our

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Speaker 1: earlier conversations about a gambling phone, Like, I've heard of

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Speaker 1: a burner phone, but I've never known someone who gambles

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Speaker 1: so frequently that at some point they're like, I need

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Speaker 1: a different phone for this, and it's like.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, several burner phones and this one was like primarily

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Speaker 6: the gambling phone, but he hit donahe himself. There were

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Speaker 6: so many tentacles he was betting with at least two

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Speaker 6: people that we know about that were part of the

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Speaker 6: scandal that were the FBI found at least two. We

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Speaker 6: speculate that he was probably betting with three, four or

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Speaker 6: five other people. Right, Hey, Ben, can you place you

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Speaker 6: know this is the pick tonight? Put five hundred bucks

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Speaker 6: on the bulls for me and kick me back, you know,

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Speaker 6: three hundred Just bring the cash next time I see you.

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Speaker 6: That's where it gets crazy, and you got to wonder

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Speaker 6: with if you look at Donnahe's phone records, think about

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Speaker 6: how easy it is for that money to move without

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Speaker 6: a trace, if it's just cash, if it's at levels

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Speaker 6: that aren't in the millions, which are what was being

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Speaker 6: bet on Donahe's games. In the professional betting markets, when

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Speaker 6: Tim Donahue refed a game, there were millions of dollars

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Speaker 6: being moved by the mafia, by the Gambino crime family,

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Speaker 6: and by various professional betting syndicates on each game that

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Speaker 6: he refereed. Tim Donnahey referee two hundred and sixty games

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Speaker 6: over the course of the scheme, So you do the math.

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Speaker 6: Were there hundreds of millions wagered in one on Tim

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Speaker 6: Donahy's games by organized crime and other shady outlets. At least,

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Speaker 6: right we know it's hundreds of millions where they're billions maybe,

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Speaker 6: And that's crazy. That's one referee games. So now expand

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Speaker 6: that there's fifty three referees in the NBA, and let's

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Speaker 6: look at college college is even easier. Hofstra is playing Northeastern.

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Speaker 6: Anybody watching that game, anybody gonna notice if a couple

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Speaker 6: grands placed here and there and all over the country

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Speaker 6: and Northeastern shoots sixty two free throws and Hofstra only

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Speaker 6: shoots twenty five.

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Speaker 3: Probably not.

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Speaker 6: So that's where, again, as basketball fans, I think the

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Speaker 6: big thing I would love to see from our podcast

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Speaker 6: is just a demand for better checks and balances, a

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Speaker 6: demand for greater transparency, and just a demand that our game,

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Speaker 6: the game that.

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Speaker 3: We love, is.

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Speaker 6: Improved from an officiating standpoint. Because we're still not there yet.

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Speaker 1: And we'll pause here for a word from our sponsor

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Speaker 1: before we return to examine this strange tale of conspiracy,

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Speaker 1: corruption and sports with Tim Livingston, and we're back. This

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Speaker 1: is to me, what are the roots of the dilemma? First,

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Speaker 1: though I have to ask, and I know there's a

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Speaker 1: question A lot of our fellow listeners are wondering. Now

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Speaker 1: the process you describe is so subtle, right, and it's

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Speaker 1: so easy to make, uh, you know, to make ten

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Speaker 1: million dollars through a series of relatively innocuous seeming bets

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Speaker 1: instead of one big ten million pot. This stuff being

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Speaker 1: so easy to miss. It makes me wonder how someone

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Speaker 1: got wind of this. How did this guy go from being,

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Speaker 1: you know, one one of the top most established referees

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Speaker 1: in the business to this pariah to this person who

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Speaker 1: was I believe I believe one of the descriptions used

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Speaker 1: is uh is scapegoaded? Right like NBA wanted a bad guy.

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Speaker 6: So to answer your question, Donnahie was Donnie was betting

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Speaker 6: on his own games, so we can assume if he's

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Speaker 6: betting on his own games. I think we proved pretty

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Speaker 6: definitively in the first couple episodes that Donnay was fixing

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Speaker 6: any game that he bet on and was refereeing, obviously, right,

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Speaker 6: I mean his the FBI made him admit that he

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Speaker 6: at least subconsciously might have manipulated games that he was

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Speaker 6: referering and had money on. But I think we prove

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Speaker 6: again without a I don't think there's any doubt after

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Speaker 6: the first couple episodes of our podcast that Donnie he

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Speaker 6: knew what he was doing, and then he was fixing

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Speaker 6: those games. So, donnahe is fixing games for four years.

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Speaker 6: And what I think is interesting in two thousand and

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Speaker 6: seven when he got caught, if it wasn't for the

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Speaker 6: scheme getting too big, if it wasn't for this guy,

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Speaker 6: Jimmy bob A Batista, Donnahe's not really friend from high school,

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Speaker 6: but a guy that he grew up with and known

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Speaker 6: his entire life and became a professional gambler. It wasn't

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Speaker 6: for Jimmy Bautista getting involved. Jimmy Batista was at the

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Speaker 6: time addicted to pills, cocaine, and everything else under the

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Speaker 6: sun that you could smoke, swallow or inhale in any

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Speaker 6: in any way I'm trying to think of. I haven't

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Speaker 6: done drugs in a while, so this is I hope

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Speaker 6: my wife is listening for that reason, to for the

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Speaker 6: fact that I started over how to how to do drugs.

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00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 6: But Batista was an admitted addict. I mean he went

433
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 6: to rehab towards the end of the scheme. And if

434
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 6: it wasn't for Batista being in that state and he

435
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 6: went into debt, he was he was getting He's winning

436
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,880
Speaker 6: eighty ninety percent of his picks, which is a professional gambler.

437
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,479
Speaker 6: That's how you print, That's how you make that's how

438
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 6: you go buy an island. Right, you're printing money, like

439
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 6: you know, invest It's like, hey, in nineteen ninety he

440
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 6: invest in Apple. There's gonna be coming to Google. That's

441
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,200
Speaker 6: gonna ipo in like two thousand and three, I invest

442
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 6: in that. You know, it's it's not fair. You're not

443
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 6: playing on an even playing field. But Batista, because of

444
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 6: his addiction and because of his hubris, went into debt

445
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 6: and started talking and he mentioned it to too many people.

446
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 6: The scheme got too big, there was too much money moving,

447
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,199
Speaker 6: and ultimately it just came down to him talking to

448
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 6: an informant. It was an informant for the Gambino crime family,

449
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 6: and they caught it on a wire tap and boom,

450
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 6: your FBI is like, wait what you have a referee

451
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,959
Speaker 6: in your in your pocket and they started listening and

452
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 6: they started, you know, they did their due diligence and

453
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 6: they're the FBI. They figured it out in a week

454
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 6: or two, and Donnahue was the guy, and they knew.

455
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 6: What's interesting, been to your point is if Donahue kept

456
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,479
Speaker 6: it relatively small, if it was what he was doing

457
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 6: the first couple of years with a couple of friends,

458
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 6: and the circle was small, circle was tight, would he

459
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 6: still be refereeing in the NBA today? And I believe

460
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 6: the answer is yes, unequivocally. I think if a referee

461
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 6: was doing this today, we'd have no real way of knowing.

462
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 6: It's just it's completely undetectable. And that's a problem. That's

463
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 6: a big problem. And so Donahe and if you listened

464
00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 6: to Tommy Martino, who was the middleman between Donahe Andatista,

465
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 6: Tim Martinez says, they're having the time in their lives.

466
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 6: They were making gobs of money, and there were criminals,

467
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,959
Speaker 6: but they never thought they'd get caught. And when criminals

468
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 6: don't think they're going to get caught and think that

469
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,439
Speaker 6: they're just going to make this kind of money and

470
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 6: live this kind of lifestyle forever, they have fun. And

471
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:22,880
Speaker 6: so Donnahy eventually realized the FBI started knocking, and he

472
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 6: quickly went and confessed. Everything became a cooperator, because that's

473
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 6: how he only got fifteen months in prison from all this.

474
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 6: But that's what's interesting. Could this have gone on in perpetuity?

475
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 6: And again I think the answer is yes.

476
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: And does it go on today, which it seems like

477
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: there's I don't know, no no for everybody listening. Of course,

478
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: the entirety of whistleblowers is not out yet. The story

479
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 1: is ongoing and you should check it out today. But

480
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: having listened to the show, what I can say is

481
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: I am per like I live in the world of conspiracies, man,

482
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 1: and there are a ton of conspiracy theories that are

483
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: just easily easily debunked or disproven or don't add up.

484
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: But I would say, this is not a conspiracy theory.

485
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 1: This is an actual conspiracy. Donnie conspired to do these things.

486
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 1: And as I was listening, you know one thing that

487
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: struck me is I massively appreciate you saying at the

488
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: very top, look, I'm a journalist. I came in with it.

489
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: I'm convinced something is up here, something's amiss, because as

490
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,800
Speaker 1: I was listening, I ended up completely agreeing. So there

491
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: might not be like the FBI's equivalent, there might not

492
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: be something that meets the FBI's equivalent of a smoking

493
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: gun or a fire with Foster with some other close relationships.

494
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of smoke. You show a lot

495
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: of smoke in this show, and it makes me think

496
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: that the money and the opportunity is probably too good

497
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: for some people to walk away from for a number

498
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: of reasons, like human ego, like you said, but also

499
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: just the financial aspect. I wanted to ask, you know,

500
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: as an outsider, I, like many people, many of our

501
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: fellow listeners, am not a professional referee. How well did

502
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: these guys all know each other? That's one of the

503
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 1: big questions I think a lot of people have. Is

504
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: it like a clock in, clock out job? Are you like,

505
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: once you get in the rarefied air of being a

506
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: professional NBA referee, don't you kind of know of all

507
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: the other people in that sphere.

508
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 6: Absolutely, these guys have all been working together forever. They

509
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 6: exist in a very strange bubble and right now for

510
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 6: those that are actually in Orlando, that's a funny term

511
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 6: to you is considering that the NBA right now is

512
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 6: in a literal bubble, but referees, there's only about fifty

513
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 6: five NBA referees refing per season, most of them for

514
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 6: the most part. I mean it's some of them only

515
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 6: last two or three years and get canned. The ones

516
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 6: who make it though, they referee forever. They're in the

517
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 6: league for fifteen, twenty twenty five, sometimes twenty five plus years,

518
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 6: and they become synonymous with the show. And that's what's interesting, right,

519
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 6: And that's what we what we're exploring, is how much

520
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 6: of this is entertainment and how much of basketball professional

521
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 6: basketball is legitimate competition and where did those lines blur.

522
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 6: But the referees all know each other very well for

523
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 6: the most part. Some of them hate each other. Some

524
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 6: of them think that, you know, referee X might think

525
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 6: Referee why is the worst referee ever, and you know

526
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 6: he's a show off and he makes the game all

527
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 6: about himself, and you know those some of those things

528
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 6: came to light. Actually after the danahe scandal, the NBA

529
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 6: commissioned its own report, you know, like we're gonna we're

530
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 6: gonna really nail down and look at our system and

531
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 6: look at our culture and fix what's wrong, right, and

532
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 6: we're going to pay a lawyer to do it. So

533
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 6: this lawyer is going to be he's an independent. He's

534
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 6: been completely independent. This investigation is not going to try

535
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 6: and you know, cast cast doubt on some of the

536
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 6: more salacious things that have been alleged during the scandal.

537
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 6: This is an investigation we can all trust. And so

538
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 6: the Peduitz report, which is the NBA report that I'm

539
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 6: referring to after the Donnahie scandal, it still says it

540
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 6: looks at NBA referee relationships and it talks about some

541
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 6: of this stuff. Right, How some of these guys look

542
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 6: at Dick Pavetta, who's the most senior official during this time,

543
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 6: and think that he was.

544
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 3: Far too How do we say? How should I say?

545
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 6: I mean intertwined in the game, that he made the

546
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 6: game about himself, right, which, according to my definition of

547
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 6: what makes a good referees, exact opposite thing that you

548
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,959
Speaker 6: should do. Dick Paveta CORNEYA Donnie. He had an American

549
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 6: Airlines pilot that he call after every game in this Again,

550
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 6: according to Donnie, I can't prove this and never talk

551
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 6: with excuse me, the stewardess American Airline stewardess, but he

552
00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 6: used to call stewardess friend of his after every game

553
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 6: and to get a report on how much airtime he

554
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 6: got during that game. So if that's true, that's really bad, right,

555
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 6: that's really really bad. But another interesting thing been to

556
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 6: your point, fifteen or so referees again tight fraternity, Not

557
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 6: that many. Fifteen hail from Delaware County, Pennsylvania, hail from

558
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 6: the greater Philadelphia area, which, over the course of refereeing

559
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 6: in the eighties, nineties, two thousands, and now into twenty twenty,

560
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 6: a lot of referees hail from this one area of

561
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 6: Philadelphia and which, as we find out in the podcast,

562
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,480
Speaker 6: is a gambling hotbed. And that's where Donnie's from, and

563
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 6: Steve Jaffy and Joey Crawford and if you know NBA

564
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 6: referees could I could go on and on, but they

565
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 6: all hail from this one area in and around Philadelphia.

566
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 6: So it's certainly suspicious. It's not really a meritocracy. It's

567
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 6: incredibly Donna. He's a product of nepotism. His uncle was

568
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 6: an NBA referee, his father was a college referee. So yeah,

569
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 6: all these guys, it's gotten better, I think referees now

570
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 6: it's definitely more of a meritocracy as far as I

571
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 6: can tell. But really, at the time it was who

572
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,479
Speaker 6: you knew and who your dad was or who your

573
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 6: uncle was.

574
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: I mean, that's insane, because we know that nepotism often

575
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: wins the day over meritocracy and any number of fields

576
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 1: or pursuits. But the appeal of the appeal of sports

577
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:44,479
Speaker 1: in general is the idea that through one's own hard work,

578
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: focused practice, and natural talent, you can leave everything else

579
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: that's outside of the court off the court when you

580
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: play the game. And for that not to be the case,

581
00:33:56,680 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: it's got to be just a profound punch in the gut,

582
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 1: you know, especially for a lot of kids who, like you,

583
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 1: were growing up living, breathing, loving basketball, you know, and

584
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: now to find that this may very well be rigged.

585
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 1: I mean, it's understandable that people would say, well, this

586
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,880
Speaker 1: is a bad Apple situation, right, this is a bad actor.

587
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: It's a one off in the NBA. You know, as

588
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: you've explored, the NBA goes into crisis mode kind of

589
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: in their pr and their damage control. But one of

590
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: the big twists that comes about, there are two big

591
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: twists I think that are going to be startling. Is

592
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: first the NBA's damage control, their pr their report it

593
00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: it didn't do the best job persuading people that this

594
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: was a one off. And I think Donna Gie himself

595
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 1: didn't agree with their findings. And I know this because

596
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 1: of another big twist in our story, which is that Tim,

597
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 1: you talked to him. Everybody should look if you're not

598
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: familiar with this character. We want to establish this. Tim

599
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: Donaghue is alive today and you, Tim have had like

600
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 1: multiple conversations with.

601
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 6: Him, multiple And this is we start off. And what

602
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 6: I'll say now that we're a little farther because people

603
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 6: have asked me since we started, when we started this podcast,

604
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 6: the reason I had access to Donahe is because Donnie

605
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 6: and I were very friendly. I'm the only when I

606
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 6: was writing for The Post Game, which was a Yahoo

607
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 6: site back in twenty twelve, I'm the first one, I think,

608
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 6: the only person, at least, you know, according to Google

609
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 6: search results, which I've done. You know, I've google searched

610
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 6: this ardently over the past eight years. I think I'm

611
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 6: the only one who said that publicly right that I

612
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 6: believe what Tim Donahey's saying about about the culture of

613
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 6: the NBA. I said, in so many words, donnahe We

614
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 6: know what donnahe is he's not the best guy, but

615
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 6: he's also so I think he's a scapegoat for a

616
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 6: bigger systemic issue. And I think that the reason I'm

617
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 6: the only one to have written those words or something

618
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,720
Speaker 6: far more eloquent in my actual article.

619
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 3: Hopefully.

620
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 6: I think the reason I'm the one who was able

621
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 6: to say that is because I wasn't employed by the NBA. Right,

622
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 6: if you're an NBA beat writer and you believe what

623
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 6: Tim Donna he's saying, you can't say that you're not

624
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 6: going to get access to any locker room, You're not

625
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 6: going to get access to any player, You're going to

626
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 6: become a pariah. You can't say that. And most crime reporters,

627
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 6: and I'm sure a lot of the stories that you

628
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 6: guys explore from a journalistic perspective, you know, crime in

629
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 6: sports is not usually something we look at for that

630
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,879
Speaker 6: crime reporters look at. Most crime reportters don't gravitate towards

631
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 6: sports to say, oh, what's the deal here, what's the

632
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 6: scandal here, what's.

633
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 3: The corruption here?

634
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 6: So, I, just as a freelance sports writer without any

635
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 6: ties to the NBA, found myself in this very odd position.

636
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 6: And then after I wrote the article, Tim Donne. He

637
00:36:58,040 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 6: reached out to me and said thank you so much

638
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 6: for writing this, and that's where we became friends and

639
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 6: now after. But look, at the same time, I'm a journalist, right,

640
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 6: so I did my research. I've done I've investigated this

641
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 6: story over basically from that day, over the course of

642
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 6: eight plus years, and what I found when it comes

643
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 6: to Donnae is that he in fact is lying about

644
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 6: a lot of things, in my opinion, and because of that,

645
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 6: we were forced to reveal those things over the course

646
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 6: of the podcast. So Tim Donnie, I don't think it's

647
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 6: my friend any longer. Ben unfortunately or not unfortunately, I

648
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 6: don't really care. But Tim Donnae is no longer doesn't

649
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 6: like me anymore, and that's fine because I still liked Tim.

650
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,840
Speaker 6: I have no issue with Tim, and all I want

651
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 6: is to find the truth at the heart of this scandal,

652
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 6: at the heart of this conspiracy, because I really appreciate

653
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 6: you saying that it's not conspiracy theory. There's no theory.

654
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 6: It's really just a question of how deep the conspiracy goes.

655
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 6: And that's what our podcasts about, and that's what unfortunately,

656
00:37:57,320 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 6: for thirteen years, people in my world, the sports world

657
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 6: have been too hesitant to investigate for reasons that are

658
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 6: completely rational. If you're an NBA writer, you want a job,

659
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:08,479
Speaker 6: you got a future family.

660
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 3: I get it.

661
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 6: At the same time, this is the darkest moment in

662
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,359
Speaker 6: the history of basketball, and to make this fort better

663
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:20,280
Speaker 6: and too, you need to understand its fault and why

664
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 6: you know what needs improving, And so that's where this

665
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 6: journey kind of kicked off from. But yeah, Tim Donnahie

666
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 6: is is a central part of our story, and I

667
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:32,239
Speaker 6: think what's interesting for myself and the audience is deciphering

668
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 6: what's true and what's not true.

669
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: Let's pause for a brief word from our sponsor before

670
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 1: we return with more and the still developing tale of

671
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: whistle Blower with Tim Livingston, and we're back. These shows,

672
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,839
Speaker 1: both both whistle Blower and Stuff they Want you to Know,

673
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 1: have have something in common, which is pursuing the truth,

674
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 1: even when pursuing the truth is not a popular or

675
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 1: even safe thing at times. One thing that stands out

676
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,440
Speaker 1: to me that surprises me. I haven't thought about really

677
00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: until exploring Whistleblower, until speaking with you, is the idea

678
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 1: that the NBA could wield such profound, pervasive influence over

679
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: what is supposed to be objective reporting. So is it

680
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:41,560
Speaker 1: true that the NBA can just stonewall or blackball blacklisted journalists,

681
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: or they can they shut down and silence a story,

682
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: or is it more that the journalists themselves are kind

683
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 1: of proactively self selecting and avoiding things they think will

684
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: get them in trouble.

685
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 3: That's a great question.

686
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 6: And again, the media side of this is super, super

687
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 6: interesting and something that we explorer in the second half

688
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 6: of the podcast. So I don't want to give away

689
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 6: too many spoilers, but I will say that, in my opinion,

690
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 6: during the David Stern era of the NBA, and David Stern,

691
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 6: for those who don't know, is the commissioner from nineteen

692
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 6: eighty four to twenty fourteen, David Stern is and this

693
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,320
Speaker 6: is what where if you're just if you're listening to

694
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 6: Whistleblower right now, you haven't heard this, or you're we're

695
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 6: about to start revealing in episodes five, six, and seven,

696
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 6: which you're coming out over the next you'll have heard

697
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 6: five and six and seven are about to come out.

698
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 6: But the NBA was an entity you did not mess with.

699
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,280
Speaker 6: And that is not me saying that that's other journalists

700
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 6: that I've spoken with. Murray Weiss, a former New York

701
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 6: Posts reporter who broke the story in the NBA, said

702
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 6: those words very clearly, right you're about to hear You're

703
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 6: about to hear Murray Wyss say that right where people

704
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 6: warned him, don't mess with the NBA, don't mess with

705
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 6: David Stern. David Stern did not mess around. David Stern

706
00:40:56,840 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 6: was a monarch. He really was, and he was brilliant,

707
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:02,919
Speaker 6: and he's a fascinating character in this.

708
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 3: That we really.

709
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,800
Speaker 6: Are going to die, going to dive into his psyche,

710
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 6: going to dive into how he ran the league and

711
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 6: the way he ran the league. It wouldn't work in

712
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 6: twenty twenty, but it worked very well in the nineties

713
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 6: and early two thousands. He was not a social media

714
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 6: era guy. He said things that would just be absolutely

715
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 6: destroyed with the way we disseminate news and at the

716
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,800
Speaker 6: speed with which we disseminate news today. But the NBA,

717
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 6: in my estimation, in my opinion, which hopefully at this

718
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 6: point your your audience values at least somewhat as somebody

719
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 6: who has spent eight years. If you guys, don't if

720
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 6: you think I'm an idiot. That's fine as well, but

721
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 6: my opinion is that, yes, the NBA was somebody was

722
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 6: a company, right, was a thing that you did not

723
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,440
Speaker 6: mess with and that people were very scared of. And

724
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 6: it wasn't just they would go to great lengths to

725
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 6: make stories like this go away. And we explore with

726
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,120
Speaker 6: the Donahue scandal the great lengths that they made for

727
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 6: this story to go away, and it's fascinating. Now.

728
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: I do have to say I've been personally impressed by

729
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: the uh, the the thoroughness of the reporting, especially when

730
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: you know in a very real way you are telling

731
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: a story that doesn't want to be told right, even

732
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 1: in the modern day. And one thing we have to

733
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 1: let you know if you're listening to the show today,

734
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:34,720
Speaker 1: is that me and Matt and nol in Mission Control

735
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: and Doc Holiday code named Doc Holliday. Uh. Tim, Tim

736
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: isn't giving us a preview of the episodes. So all

737
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: the stuff that that you just said, Tim with my question,

738
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 1: it's it's stuff that I have to wait for the

739
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 1: next episode to hear, which I think is it's fantastic.

740
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: I just want to say that, you know, unlike some

741
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: players of the NBA. We're not getting special treatment here,

742
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 1: so we are listening along with you, folks. Perhaps one

743
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 1: way to close today's episode, before everybody goes and checks

744
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 1: out whistleblowers for ourselves, is to go back to something

745
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: that you post that I think is of crucial importance here.

746
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:26,800
Speaker 1: So there's this idea of checks and balances, right, and

747
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: how best to institute them, But it seems so complicated.

748
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: It seems like it's a very tall order. Do you

749
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 1: have things like checks and balances that you think would

750
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: mitigate this problem? I mean, is there a solution? Because

751
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: I you know, I'm not an expert. I'm not like

752
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 1: the King of referees or anything like that. And I

753
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: was thinking through this and yeah, I don't know, and

754
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: out smart than me. It's just so easy to get

755
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: away with it, you know.

756
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, And I think the first step is right now,

757
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 6: the referees are employed by the NBA. So, for example,

758
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 6: during the David Stern era, David Stern somewhat facetiously replied

759
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,359
Speaker 6: during a Dan Patrick interview in two thousand and four

760
00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 6: about his dream NBA Finals matchup. He said, Lakers versus

761
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 6: Lakers is the league. That's that's what the Laker. That's

762
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 6: what the league wants to see. And as a Lakers look,

763
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 6: I grew up a Lakers fan, right, The Lakers got

764
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 6: that hat on, I got the La hat on, and

765
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 6: I it's interesting because the Lakers were for ratings, which

766
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 6: the NBA cared a lot about. The NBA makes a

767
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:41,120
Speaker 6: majority of its money via via television. The TV contracts

768
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 6: they've signed over the last twenty years have just gone

769
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 6: up by the billions. It's gone from hundreds of millions

770
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 6: to billions to multi billions. And last year the NBA

771
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,839
Speaker 6: did almost nine billion dollars in revenue. So if you're

772
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 6: valuing the NBA as a company, their give or take

773
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 6: a thirty five billion dollar company, they're a huge corporation.

774
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 6: They're a very very powerful corporation. And so the first

775
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 6: thing you need to do is make the referees.

776
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 2: You need to.

777
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,720
Speaker 3: Create a separate employment agency.

778
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 6: You can't have the NBA employee referees because if the

779
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:19,240
Speaker 6: Lakers are playing whichever team in the Western Conference Finals,

780
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 6: and that referee has in his head that David Stern,

781
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 6: his boss's boss's boss's boss is rooting for the Lakers

782
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 6: to reach the next game, that's a problem.

783
00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 3: Right.

784
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 6: So that's step one is and Phil Jackson, formed Lakers coach,

785
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 6: the one who suggested that first, or at least, I mean,

786
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,760
Speaker 6: I'm sure a lot of people had suggested before Phil Jackson,

787
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 6: but I think Phil Jackson, of the time NBA champion's

788
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 6: he knows, he's a smart guy. He knows his teams

789
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 6: have been privy to different officiating than a lot of

790
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,320
Speaker 6: other a lot of other teams. And that's one anecdote

791
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 6: that donnae He provides in our opening episodes where Phil

792
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 6: Jackson or he calls Michael Jordan for travel, Michael Jordan

793
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 6: and Phil Jackson flip out and Phil Jackson, you know, Donnie,

794
00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 6: he says, you watch the same training tapes as I do.

795
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 6: And Phil Jackson says, yeah, they might want that call

796
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 6: to travel, but not on Michael Jordan. So it's the

797
00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:16,760
Speaker 6: same kind of bias and talent discrimination that exists throughout

798
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:20,360
Speaker 6: the league, and a call, the right call should be

799
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 6: the right call every single time, and it's not.

800
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 3: In the NBA.

801
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 6: There's biases and different rules for different players, and it's

802
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 6: it's not an even playing field. And to get there,

803
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,960
Speaker 6: the first step is to create make referees part of

804
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 6: a different organization that has no ties with the NBA,

805
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 6: and that's that's step one, and that's a big step.

806
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,400
Speaker 3: Do I think it's going to happen. I don't know.

807
00:46:42,840 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 6: I don't think anytime soon, because definitely during the David

808
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 6: Stern era, I think the NBA enjoyed having that control,

809
00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 6: and I think they giving that up would be something

810
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 6: that they would really really have to be pushed into

811
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 6: a hole to do. But that's the that's the first

812
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 6: step the solution. And then you've got to make sure

813
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 6: that that agency, that organization is is run well and

814
00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 6: run with integrity. But right now, the NBA having control

815
00:47:11,680 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 6: essentially over the employment of its officials creates a conflict

816
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 6: of interest. It's too wada chasm to to overcome.

817
00:47:19,960 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is you know, this is reminding me of

818
00:47:23,320 --> 00:47:25,799
Speaker 1: all those memes where you see like a tiny hero

819
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 1: standing up against some gigantic colossus in the on the horizon.

820
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:36,240
Speaker 1: That's an enormous conflict of interest. And you know what

821
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: what I like about this point and what I like

822
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 1: about I called some of my friends who are living, breathing,

823
00:47:47,040 --> 00:47:51,279
Speaker 1: God bless them for their optimism, Atlanta basketball fans and

824
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:56,839
Speaker 1: uh and so they so so, uh, you know, a

825
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: lot of I think a lot of folks here or

826
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 1: somehow familiar with the problem you're addressing just at the

827
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: very offset of Whistleblower, and it's this I think. You know,

828
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: if you love basketball, then of course you feel like

829
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 1: there's been several terrible calls, as you said, Tim, two three,

830
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: four per game. So I think a lot of our

831
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:28,360
Speaker 1: listeners are already excited to see it's a very real

832
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: proof that they weren't just being you know, sore loser

833
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: fans or something like that. And so we turn it

834
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: over to you, folks. Don't take my word for it.

835
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: Do check out whistle Blower. It's available wherever you find

836
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: your favorite podcast on any platform. As we said, we

837
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 1: actually waited a little bit on this interview because we

838
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:57,439
Speaker 1: didn't want to have the interview here while episode one

839
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,040
Speaker 1: was just out because there's so much stuff on the

840
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:03,839
Speaker 1: horizon that we can't get talk about. And Tim, thank

841
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 1: you for being patient with me. I know you totally

842
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:09,720
Speaker 1: caught me trying to slide in getting a little more info.

843
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: I guess I'll just have to wait. I'll have to

844
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 1: wait till next week, but.

845
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 3: I appreciate it. Ben Now was great.

846
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,479
Speaker 6: I could talk about this stuff all day, So after

847
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 6: episode ten comes out, I'll come back on and we

848
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 6: can dive even deeper. But do you appreciate it? It

849
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 6: was a lot of fun, and yeah, check out Whistleblower.

850
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 6: I think you guys will like it.

851
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 1: In the meantime, Tim, for anyone who would like to

852
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 1: learn more about your overall work, where can they find

853
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:35,440
Speaker 1: you online?

854
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 6: I'm on Twitter at Tim likes sports. To handle that,

855
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 6: I think I'd got like twenty twelve or twenty thirteen

856
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 6: that I'm going to stick with because I still like sports,

857
00:49:45,920 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 6: even after learning about all the terrible things that have

858
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:51,960
Speaker 6: happened in the world that I love. So yeah, Tim

859
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Speaker 6: likes sports on Twitter, and that's where you can That's

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Speaker 6: where I'm most active on the social media's.

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Speaker 1: Again, you can also find Tim on the No Chill

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00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:07,399
Speaker 1: podcast if you are like me, waiting for the end

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00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: of Whistleblower. In the meantime, while you're on the Internet,

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00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 1: you can also find stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 1: We're on Instagram, We're on Facebook, We're on Twitter. If

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Speaker 1: you have listened to our multiple episodes about big data

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Speaker 1: and you are still on Facebook, then check out our

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00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:24,840
Speaker 1: check out our group page. Here's where it gets crazy.

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Speaker 1: You can leave us a phone number if you don't

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00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: sip the social needs one eight three three STDWYTK. Let

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00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: us know if you want us to use your name

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00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 1: on air or not. We can't wait to hear your input,

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00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 1: your feedback on whistleblower? How deep do you think this goes?

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00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,280
Speaker 1: How high and wide do you think this conspiracy breaches?

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00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,520
Speaker 1: If you don't like phones is twenty twenty, I get it.

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00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:54,919
Speaker 1: Real friends text and you don't like social media, there's

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Speaker 1: one way you can always contact us. We have a

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Speaker 1: good old fashioned email address where we are conspiracy at

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio dot com.

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Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,