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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. I'm Stephaniel Iidecker here with Courtney

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Speaker 2: Armstrong and Body. Move in and listen. We have a

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Speaker 2: stacked night of headlines. It is not a great day

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Speaker 2: to be meta or YouTube for that matter, because we

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Speaker 2: heard their case yesterday which they lost in New Mexico. Well,

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Speaker 2: the Los Angeles verdict is in today as well, and oof,

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Speaker 2: it is not good. So we will be unpacking all

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Speaker 2: of that. Plus the verdict in that very very difficult

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Speaker 2: trial that we've been covering about the woman who allegedly

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Speaker 2: poisoned per friend, remember the nurse Oof, We have a

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Speaker 2: verdict on that one also. Plus I don't know if

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Speaker 2: you guys saw this, but Savannah Guthrie her first day

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Speaker 2: in person interview and you have to just watch it.

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Speaker 2: It will be on the Today Show tomorrow is heart wrenching.

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Speaker 2: The clips that I've seen is just absolutely devastating. Where

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Speaker 2: is her mom? Nancy Guthrie. She's still begging for our help.

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Speaker 2: And we have our favorite prosecutor, Jarrett Farantino with us

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Speaker 2: this evening.

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Speaker 3: You could not have tom on a better night, honestly,

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Speaker 3: like so many verdicts that we have got to unpack

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Speaker 3: with that, right, of course.

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Speaker 4: That's a lot of legal work.

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Speaker 2: Come on, man, we hope you've been resting all day.

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Speaker 2: I know it's been a late night and it's East

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Speaker 2: Coast time, but listen, you are. We're going to try

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Speaker 2: not to hold you hostage too too long. But man,

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Speaker 2: we have a lot of questions for you, Jared, and

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Speaker 2: you weren't here last week, so.

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Speaker 3: Now we're all backed up. We've been saving them up.

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Speaker 2: Come on, all right, good, good, good good, And of

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Speaker 2: course we have producer Taha with us, and of course

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Speaker 2: Sam and Adam are in the control room just waiting

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Speaker 2: for your call. Eight eight eight three one prime. So, ladies,

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Speaker 2: I am so excited about this social media change in

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Speaker 2: the air. And listen, money talks and it sounds like

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Speaker 2: Meta has to pay a lot of it. That's exactly right.

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Speaker 5: So we're going to start Stephanie with what happened today,

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Speaker 5: and it was a California jury and they just hands down.

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Speaker 5: It's literally a first of its kind, six million dollar verdict,

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Speaker 5: and what they found was that both Meta and YouTube

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Speaker 5: are responsible for designing addictive platforms additionally for failing to warn.

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Speaker 2: The users about that.

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Speaker 5: So this case, if you haven't been following it, it

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Speaker 5: centers on a woman who goes by the pseudonym of Kaylei.

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Speaker 5: Kaylee is now twenty years old, and she said when

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Speaker 5: that the platforms design encourage really compulsive use that contributed

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Speaker 5: deeply to her depression, anxiety, body dysmorphia. And listen, this

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Speaker 5: is the first in a major wave of nearly two

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Speaker 5: thousand lawsuits behind it, and that includes three hundred and

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Speaker 5: fifty plus families and two hundred and fifty plus entire

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Speaker 5: school districts. So, and if you remember from yesterday, this

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Speaker 5: ruling follows a new Mexico verdict that ordered Meta to

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Speaker 5: pay a whopping three hundred and seventy five million dollars.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and a second phase could impose further penalties and

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Speaker 5: platform changes. So more information. But Jarrett, we'd love to

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Speaker 5: get sort of your knee jerk reaction to this.

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Speaker 4: It's earth shattering for social media. There's no doubt you

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Speaker 4: know this case. We always heard about social media companies, Facebook,

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Speaker 4: everyone being immune from lawsuits because of two thirty. You know,

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Speaker 4: you heard President Trump talk about Everybody talked about this,

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Speaker 4: and the big question here was how can these plaintive

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Speaker 4: side step to thirty. It's become largely a products case.

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Speaker 4: They're saying, this isn't an issue of what's being posted online.

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Speaker 4: This is a products case. Your design is what has

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Speaker 4: harmed us. Your addictive engineering, your algorithm, everything you've done,

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Speaker 4: including internal memos that entice young people to stay connected,

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Speaker 4: are what has led to these physical manifestations of depression

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Speaker 4: and children and all of these things. Ironically, this young

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Speaker 4: woman is twenty, so think about when social media came

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Speaker 4: on her entire adolescence. Teenage years were the just the

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Speaker 4: heyday of social media. And now it's time to pay

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Speaker 4: the piper. We're seeing these effects and if you add

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Speaker 4: up those litigants and there's going to be more, it's

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Speaker 4: a ton of money on the line.

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Speaker 2: It's a ton of money on the line. And we

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Speaker 2: were debating this a bit last night just about listen,

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Speaker 2: the role of a parent in this social media mess

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Speaker 2: that we find ourselves in. And look, I have been

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Speaker 2: thinking about that since you've been with us and body

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Speaker 2: our conversation last night, and yeah, it's true. If we

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Speaker 2: had to do it all over again, I speaking for myself,

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Speaker 2: I would have delayed and I would have been more

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Speaker 2: restrictive with social media period. But like it's too late,

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Speaker 2: and now to somebody saying, well in maybe moving forward

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Speaker 2: for young parents and people who are kind of facing

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Speaker 2: that timeline, yeah, I think the proof is in the

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Speaker 2: pudding a bit. But to hear them say that they

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Speaker 2: were purposefully doing things that were addictive with intention is

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Speaker 2: pretty mind buggling, because again, we all signed up with

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Speaker 2: one side of circumstances and they intentionally knew it was another.

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Speaker 2: And I feel like the only thing that will stop

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Speaker 2: them is frankly, their wallets.

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Speaker 4: And high prices. It's it's if you remember the McDonald's

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Speaker 4: Hot Coffee lawsuit, remember that and if you don't remember

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Speaker 4: that on Seinfeld. But the bottom line was why that

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Speaker 4: woman received so much money is because in order to

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Speaker 4: consequence accompany the size of McDonald's, there has to be

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Speaker 4: a lot of zeros and that's what we have here.

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Speaker 4: The other thing we have here, And you make a

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Speaker 4: good point, Stephanie you're saying, as parents, is there some

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Speaker 4: personal responsibility? Sure, yes, we wish we did more, But

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Speaker 4: think about the opioid cases, think about the tobacco cases.

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Speaker 4: It's like, yeah, I wish I didn't start smoking, or

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Speaker 4: I wish I did take a pain pill, But I

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Speaker 4: also wish I knew that this product wasn't designed to

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Speaker 4: hook me, hook line and sinker and cause me great harm.

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Speaker 4: So although there's some personal responsibility, you're not, as far

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Speaker 4: as I know, Stephanie, a billionaire yet, So.

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Speaker 2: That is fair as a fair statement.

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Speaker 4: I like the Yello pay the price.

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Speaker 2: If I become a billionaire, I promise to give money

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Speaker 2: away because apparently it only brings unhappiness. Yes, yes, Jared,

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Speaker 2: I have a question, and listen.

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Speaker 5: I asked this understanding that you do not live in

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Speaker 5: the minds of the jurors. But this one went on

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Speaker 5: for a long time. So it was a jury that

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Speaker 5: was comprised of seven women and five men, and they

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Speaker 5: deliberated for over nine days. They asked the judge several questions,

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Speaker 5: and a certain point the judge had to say, listen,

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Speaker 5: please go ahead and keep deliberating.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think this might have been so difficult?

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Speaker 4: Well, there's it's a novel case, it's a new legal theory,

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Speaker 4: it's a new legal issue, it's a it's a strange

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Speaker 4: kind of harm. You know, if you have a straight

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Speaker 4: up car accident case, you understand injury, you understand physical injury.

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Speaker 4: So here are the leaps that jurors had to make.

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Speaker 4: They had to be convinced this was not a personal

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Speaker 4: responsibility situation exclusively. They had to understand the technology. They

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Speaker 4: had to understand how that harm manifested itself with the litigants.

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Speaker 4: They had to understand that there weren't these other causes.

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Speaker 4: It's this naturally someone who's depressed. So there were experts

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Speaker 4: to decipher on the physical end. All of that together,

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Speaker 4: then it was a matter of how much is it worth?

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Speaker 4: How much can we compensate someone, What is a life

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Speaker 4: that has experienced all of these emotional issues, body dysmorphia?

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Speaker 4: What are those things worth? Those are a lot of

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Speaker 4: tough questions for laid people to weigh.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I bet, I bet they did a good job, though,

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Speaker 2: and listen, this is a week of deliberation, so they

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Speaker 2: obviously were very thorough, and even in our coverage yesterday,

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Speaker 2: it seemed as though there was a lot of debates still. Ye,

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Speaker 2: behind clothes.

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Speaker 6: We were talking, Yeah.

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Speaker 3: We were talking last night and Courtney, we had been

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Speaker 3: talking about like it wasn't looking like maybe it was

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Speaker 3: looking like maybe there might be a hung jury of

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Speaker 3: some kind. That's right, because they were in deliberations for

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Speaker 3: over nine days. Yeah, and that's not and they were

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Speaker 3: asking like really interesting questions. The questions they were asking

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Speaker 3: made it seem like they were going to rule in

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Speaker 3: the Planktif's favor. But then it just kind of dragged

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Speaker 3: on and on, and I was like, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: I don't know what's.

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Speaker 4: Going to happen with surprised, you know, even if you

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Speaker 4: knew where you were headed, and those questions did lean

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Speaker 4: very heavily toward that result. Yeah, still have a lot

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Speaker 4: of work to do as jurors. You still have to

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Speaker 4: get Once you get over the liability, then it becomes

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Speaker 4: a matter of damages and how are you going to

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Speaker 4: send the proper message Although you're not supposed to be

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Speaker 4: thinking that to meta and knowing full well that this

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Speaker 4: case is going to stand, we have a system that

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Speaker 4: although this case stands for itself, this will send shock

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Speaker 4: waves across the legal community. Because it shows an attack

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Speaker 4: vector and that a case will stand up and a

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Speaker 4: liability theory can be made against social media companies and

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Speaker 4: you can establish liability for damages in a courtroom. So

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Speaker 4: they have two choices here, do we file it, do

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Speaker 4: we appeal this and fight it as far as we

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Speaker 4: can go to try to get some good law on

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Speaker 4: behalf of the social media companies, or do you open

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Speaker 4: your checkbook.

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Speaker 3: Well that's a really good question because what's the punishment.

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Speaker 3: I mean, three six mint Let's face it, six million

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Speaker 3: dollars is nothing to Meta and or too Google Google, right,

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Speaker 3: it's nothing to them, So what's the out come for me?

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Speaker 4: That's true in one instance, but if you have two

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Speaker 4: hundred and fifty school districts standing behind you, in hundreds

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Speaker 4: of plaintiffs, and guess what the second this verdict came in.

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Speaker 4: I'm not going to do this, but the lawyers of

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Speaker 4: the world are going to be one eight hundred. Get Meta,

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Speaker 4: you know, to join the flash. The flood gates are open.

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Speaker 4: It will break the biggest companies in the world. I

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Speaker 4: was part of the opioid livage. These were the biggest

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Speaker 4: companies in the world next to Meta, and many of

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Speaker 4: the same issues were dealt with. They pumped their chest out.

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Speaker 4: They were going to fight this. Guess why. They ended

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Speaker 4: up resolving most of those cases. So it's going to

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Speaker 4: be interested, but they fought some, so it's going to

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Speaker 4: be interesting to see where this plays out. Meta is

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Speaker 4: not going to go down without a fight. I anticipate

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Speaker 4: an appeal as far as they can go here.

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Speaker 2: I just sort of feel like there's like a wind

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Speaker 2: of change. It's like so slight, but it does feel

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Speaker 2: like there is a wind of change in the air

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Speaker 2: right now where I think good is going to prevent ill. Honestly,

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Speaker 2: some of this stuff seems wild that they're even standing

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Speaker 2: there saying that they had no idea. No, no, no,

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Speaker 2: this is not addictive like they deny. Deny has worked

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Speaker 2: for so so long in so many categories in our world,

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Speaker 2: and I think, really this is the beginning of a

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Speaker 2: lot of important decisions to be made in the right

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Speaker 2: the right direction, and a lot of categories I do just.

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Speaker 4: Think about, like infinity play and auto play in the algorithm.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I've found myself in that you know, minutes

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Speaker 4: has gone by and you're sitting there, It's like, whoa jeez,

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Speaker 4: I just wa a minute. Every juror has done that

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Speaker 4: for the most part too, and they're like, wait a minute,

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Speaker 4: they did that to me. And now you have a

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Speaker 4: vulnerable young person whose life has been turned upside down

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Speaker 4: because they spent the lion's share of their life on

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Speaker 4: Facebook on Instagram, not to mention, you know, the impact

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Speaker 4: of what's celebrated on these platforms, because we know, you know,

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Speaker 4: they call it face book and everybody's living their best

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Speaker 4: life on there. The adults in the room look at

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Speaker 4: a child versus that company, and you see the result

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Speaker 4: they lost. I mean, David killed Goliath in this case,

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Speaker 4: and that's what's going to happen across the country.

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Speaker 3: So, even though this is targeting the platform design of

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Speaker 3: both companies well in even TikTok and Snapchat prior to

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Speaker 3: them settling, do you think that does this have any

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Speaker 3: too thirty implications at all moving forward?

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Speaker 4: I think the most significant implication is it wasn't about

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Speaker 4: the content, it was about the product the platform design.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the design.

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Speaker 4: Two thirty is irrelevant in a sense based on the

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Speaker 4: look plaintiffs lawyers are pretty sharp. They devised a claim

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Speaker 4: that got around too thirty, you know, and that that

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Speaker 4: oh content from two thirty. It really it won't change

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Speaker 4: that in any way. What it has done has paved

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Speaker 4: a road and blazed a trail right to their wallets

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Speaker 4: around two thirty. And that's a problem.

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Speaker 5: Well okay, right, And I thought, like you said, the

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Speaker 5: prosecution they did such a great job and they talked about,

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Speaker 5: you know, the digital casino of it all, and the

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Speaker 5: plaintiff and her testimony it affected herself worth entirely, and

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Speaker 5: she was so compulsively checking for lakes.

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Speaker 2: She was running out of class to go to the

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Speaker 2: bathroom to check. I mean, she couldn't.

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Speaker 5: That is all where her mind was because of the

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Speaker 5: addictiveness of the platform.

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Speaker 4: So and she's not alone in that. Now, this is

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Speaker 4: something that we're going to say. I think the other

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Speaker 4: good that can result in this is changes on the platform,

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Speaker 4: making it safer, making it less addictive, you know, to

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Speaker 4: the extent that that could happen. That's something that's going

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Speaker 4: to be better for our kids overall. And I think

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Speaker 4: suits have to make.

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Speaker 2: Change absolutely and the kids that are behind them. Right,

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Speaker 2: So there's a whole new generation that we were sort

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Speaker 2: of the test ummy on and look, we know sort

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Speaker 2: of what the proof is now and we can still

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Speaker 2: pump the brakes. And again, if anyone's just kind of

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Speaker 2: having that conversation, definitely do the research because it's pretty clear,

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Speaker 2: you know, hold off as long as humanly possible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well, and they're going to have to go back

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Speaker 3: to the drawing board with the platform now. I mean

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Speaker 3: to course correct at this point, and that's going to

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Speaker 3: take some time. So I wouldn't expect like a big

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Speaker 3: change overnight right to these algorithms and and the way

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Speaker 3: that the feed works and whatnot. But I mean, over time, slowly,

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Speaker 3: but surely things might course correct.

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Speaker 7: You know.

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Speaker 6: It's got to be patient and well hopefully.

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Speaker 3: Well other than that, I mean, if they if they

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Speaker 3: you know, say hey, listen, we're working on it. It

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Speaker 3: might help them legally, right Jared, I mean maybe well they.

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Speaker 4: Could, and it could be part of the resolution here.

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Speaker 4: But again in court, they have to be careful because

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Speaker 4: if they say that it's a post remedial measure. For example,

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Speaker 4: if you can't fix something that has already harmed somebody

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Speaker 4: without making yourself look liable in a core room, So

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Speaker 4: that conversation may not be had there, but it will

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Speaker 4: be had hopefully in mediation rooms and moving forward.

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Speaker 3: All right, well, we'll see when we come back. Savannah

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Speaker 3: Guthrie speaks out as her mother Nancy remains missing.

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Speaker 6: Keep it right your True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Steph. You're with Courtney

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Speaker 2: and Body and listen. We have our favorite prosecutor in

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Speaker 2: the house, Jarrett Farentino, and he's breaking down all of

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Speaker 2: your legal questions. We have many of those, and if

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Speaker 2: you want to ask yourself live eight eight eight three

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Speaker 2: one crime, or you can always leave us a talk back.

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Speaker 2: In fact, we have one right now.

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Speaker 8: Hi, guys, I've been following the Nancy Getter case, and

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Speaker 8: I have to say it doesn't seem like the sheriff

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Speaker 8: has been doing a great job. Like opening the crime

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Speaker 8: scene to early Kim the sheriff's base legal consequences for

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Speaker 8: how an investigation is handled.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, great question, what a really good yeah, And I

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Speaker 3: agree like opening that crime scene up early. I mean

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Speaker 3: that I remember Brian Inton was like on the front

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Speaker 3: porch with his camera filming and there was like blood

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Speaker 3: everywhere in the plants that the suspect took to cover

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Speaker 3: the camera up were just strewn about. I was like, what,

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Speaker 3: I couldn't believe it.

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Speaker 5: People were there so long and there were so many

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Speaker 5: people were ordering pizzas delivery to this crime scene.

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Speaker 2: That is true, but also just a little bit in

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Speaker 2: his defense. I mean, listen, this is a sheriff in

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Speaker 2: a fairly small area, right, This was a very big

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Speaker 2: national case in Boom. Suddenly the FBI was called in.

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Speaker 2: Didn't Cash Pateel have a big, you know, a big

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Speaker 2: moment where they were going to get to the bottom

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Speaker 2: of this no matter what. Even our President had weighed

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Speaker 2: in on Air Force one. So it wasn't as though

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Speaker 2: this sheriff, who, by the way, presents very sweet. So

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Speaker 2: maybe that's why I done a little bit.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, it really does.

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Speaker 2: But he has a little bit of a he has

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Speaker 2: has had a few dings against him. The one thing

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Speaker 2: I would really say too, that was real time is

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Speaker 2: the DNA. Remember, like they wanted to send the DNA

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Speaker 2: to AUTHORM, which is Authoram is a DNA lab and

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Speaker 2: they do such extraordinary work. It's so state of the art.

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Speaker 2: They solve so many crimes with their their great ability

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Speaker 2: to use DNA testing. And you know this particular sheriff

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Speaker 2: really insisted it went somewhere else, right, that's they.

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Speaker 3: Had a contract with like a lab in Florida, And

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Speaker 3: I think it's just the way it's done there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I got a lot of debate though at

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Speaker 2: that time.

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Speaker 6: Oh, it absolutely did well.

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Speaker 3: Did you guys see these clips from Savannah's So Today's

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Speaker 3: show hosts Savannah Guthrie. She gave her first televised interview

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Speaker 3: since her mother, excuse me, Nancy's disappearance. And this is

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Speaker 3: all as the Pima Commi sheriff is facing scrutiny over

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Speaker 3: his handling of the cases. You know, the talk back

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Speaker 3: just mentioned Nancy Guthrie again. She's eighty four. She went

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Speaker 3: missing from her Tucson, Arizona home early in the morning

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Speaker 3: on February first, after visiting her daughter Annie's house. And

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Speaker 3: it seems like digital forensics evidence is really central to

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Speaker 3: this investigation. I mean, we don't know for sure because

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Speaker 3: we're not the cops, but it seems like the digital

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Speaker 3: the digital evidence is really key here. And that includes

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Speaker 3: you know that really scary nest in doorbell camera footage

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Speaker 3: and it had this masked man and armed intruder with

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Speaker 3: the gun hanging off off his belt and it was

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Speaker 3: just really goofy. So and there was all this blood

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Speaker 3: outside on the home. And you know, no suspect has

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Speaker 3: been publicly named thus far. So this Savannah interview, Steph,

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Speaker 3: you mentioned that you watch some of it.

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Speaker 4: I did.

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Speaker 6: It is so sad. So here's some of the things,

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Speaker 6: you guys.

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Speaker 3: I you know, I'm really not very emotional, like normally

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Speaker 3: not I no, I mean like I watched this and

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Speaker 3: I I my, oh my god. There was one key moment.

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Speaker 3: So she sat down with her other her co host, right,

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Speaker 3: her name.

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Speaker 2: Is Hoda, Right, yeah, Hoda left, and then stepped in

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Speaker 2: when Savanna has been gone.

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Speaker 3: It's set to air tomorrow. But they released some of

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Speaker 3: the clips and here's the one. Okay, so she said,

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Speaker 3: Savannah said, someone needs to do the right thing.

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Speaker 6: We are in agony.

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Speaker 3: And she's saying this, you guys, you have to imagine

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Speaker 3: there are tears streaming down her face. Okay, she said,

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Speaker 3: it is unbearable. And here's the one that is gonna

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Speaker 3: it that got me. I wake up in the middle

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Speaker 3: of the night every night, and in the darkness, I

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Speaker 3: imagine her terror and it is unthinkable. But those thoughts

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Speaker 3: demanned to be thought and even Hodah got like emotional

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Speaker 3: when when when Savannah said this, I mean, it was

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Speaker 3: so like my mother went through this unimaginable terror. You know,

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Speaker 3: she was alone. I'm I'm paraphrasing here, she was alone, scared.

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Speaker 3: These these thoughts demand to be thought like. It just

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Speaker 3: really broke my heart.

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Speaker 6: Savannah.

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Speaker 3: She's going to return to the Didit the Today Show

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Speaker 3: expected in April, with a person close to the show

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Speaker 3: confirming that she does plan in a clumb backed Studio

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Speaker 3: one A in just a few weeks, although NBC has

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Speaker 3: not announced her exact indeed, so the sheriff, right, the

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Speaker 3: sheriff question, Yeah, what do you think Jared about the

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Speaker 3: sheriff and the Contraverty?

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Speaker 4: First, I want to say something about the agony, if

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Speaker 4: you don't mind. The agony comes from having been a

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Speaker 4: part of cases like this, particularly the Brittain case out

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Speaker 4: of South Carolina, where Brittain was a spring breaker who

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Speaker 4: was missing for thirteen years. I represented Britney's mom Don

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Speaker 4: in the final stages of that case, but for the

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Speaker 4: last three years. The agony comes from not knowing what

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Speaker 4: happened to your love. I think I don't know that

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Speaker 4: Savannah is under any delusion that her mom is still

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Speaker 4: with us. I think there's hope, there's always hope, But

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Speaker 4: the reality is she doesn't know what happened to her mother,

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Speaker 4: and she wants closure. She wants if her mom is gone,

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Speaker 4: she wants the opportunity to give her a proper burial.

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Speaker 4: And that may sound a cop but really those are

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Speaker 4: the kind of things we're at day fifty one here,

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Speaker 4: like these are the kind of things you start thinking,

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Speaker 4: this is an eighty four year old woman. You're thinking,

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Speaker 4: I can't mourn my mother properly because I don't know

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Speaker 4: what happened to her, but I know it wasn't good.

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Speaker 4: That's the agony. Whether or not the sheriff is liable

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Speaker 4: also takes me back to the Britney Drexel case, because

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Speaker 4: there were missteps in the initial years of that investigation

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Speaker 4: and false suspects. I very similar to this case, and

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Speaker 4: it went on for thirteen years. You can bet Don

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Speaker 4: and her family wanted to do something civilly with regard

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Speaker 4: to the original law enforcement missteps, there's really not a

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Speaker 4: claim there. There's just not a claim civilly for police

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Speaker 4: officers who make missteps and investigations. Now if they deliberately

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Speaker 4: jail the wrong person, those kinds of things. We're all

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Speaker 4: familiar with those kinds of claims. But for a family

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Speaker 4: in a situation where you have a police officer who

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Speaker 4: is not in the best he's not the best suited

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Speaker 4: person for this job. They released that scene way too early,

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Speaker 4: and I hate to judge, but I knew it immediately.

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Speaker 4: It made me think they knew what happened, and we're

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Speaker 4: sawd We're minutes away from the police information. The other

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Speaker 4: issue was he did not call the FBI in soon enough.

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Speaker 4: If you remember, the chief of the Moscow Police Department

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Speaker 4: had done a training in Quantico and when he arrived

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Speaker 4: at the scene in Idaho, the first call he made,

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Speaker 4: if not the first, the second call was to the

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Speaker 4: FBI because he knew this was beyond his resources. Doesn't

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Speaker 4: mean he's stupid, doesn't mean he can't handle a tough pace.

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Speaker 4: You have to accept your limitations in that business. Local

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Speaker 4: police departments have to seed sometimes to the state police

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Speaker 4: or the district attorney's office, and we have had to

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Speaker 4: seed to the power and the abilities of the federal government.

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Speaker 4: There's political prosecution, there's pride, but let me tell you this,

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Speaker 4: Those days cost valuable, valuable pieces of information and evidence.

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Speaker 4: In this case.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think there was so much attention on this case.

434
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 2: Though even just again it sounds like I'm defending the sheriff.

435
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 2: I don't know the sheriff. I'm just Devil's advocate. The

436
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 2: entire world was looking for Nancy Guthrie. Everybody was looking

437
00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 2: for Nancy Guthrie. There was an all hands on decap

438
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,119
Speaker 2: to this case, the likes of which we've never seen.

439
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 2: Maybe that was part of the problem too, now that

440
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,360
Speaker 2: I'm saying this out loud, maybe the call to attention

441
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 2: for any possible tip in all of the land. Maybe

442
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 2: that also clogged the system a little bit because they

443
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 2: were getting so many junk tips. I don't know.

444
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 4: But I'm also more thinking too, and that's a good point, Stephan.

445
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 4: But I'm also more thinking about the scene itself, things

446
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 4: of that nature that could have been compromised. You look

447
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 4: at John Beney Ramsey. The whole world was watching that case,

448
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 4: looking for that answers for that little girl, and the

449
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 4: scene was.

450
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 3: Compromised immediately immediately.

451
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 4: Doctor Henry Lee said this, the rice is cooked. It's

452
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 4: too late. If there's a misstep because you're not familiar,

453
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 4: you don't feel in kidnapping or murder cases enough. That's

454
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 4: where you're going to have consequences that will echo in

455
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 4: eternity for the life of that case. That's where you're

456
00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,399
Speaker 4: gonna have missteps.

457
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 3: Such all the Deputies union they unanimously passed a no

458
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 3: confidence vote against the Peen mccony sheriff, Chris Nanos, and

459
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 3: they cited past suspensions and alleged misrepresentations with union president

460
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 3: Sergeant Aaron Cross. He stated Nanos has lost the faith

461
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 3: of his deputies and the community and is unfit to

462
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 3: wear the badge. I mean that's pretty harsh.

463
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 9: You guys, not.

464
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 4: Good, not good. And you know, I've dealt with police

465
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 4: officers who have had supervisor officers, chiefs who have had

466
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 4: just World War Three with their unions and personnel, personal

467
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 4: issues that bleeds into your work, whether or not, it'll

468
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:47,120
Speaker 4: find you in the courtroom and it'll find you in

469
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 4: those investigations. Look, they were looking for somebody to fly

470
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 4: the helicopter. That guy was suspended. They had to find

471
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 4: somebody else to fly the helicopter because there was an

472
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 4: issue with the sheriff. Like those are the kind of

473
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 4: things that if I'm at that scene, I would be like, Sheriff,

474
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 4: I don't care. Get the helicopter in here.

475
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 3: Exactly, rent the Grand Canyon guy right like, let's go right, true,

476
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 3: So go ahead.

477
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 5: Yeah, just if you are just joining us. This is

478
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 5: true crime tonight, and we're talking about Nancy Guthrie still

479
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:23,119
Speaker 5: missing more than fifty days, Savannah Guthrie's mother, and also

480
00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 5: the controversy that is surrounding the Pima County sheriff. So

481
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 5: Jarrett Farentino, prosecutor extordinaire, is helping us break some of

482
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 5: this down. I thought it was interesting the direct appeal

483
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 5: to the abductor that Sheriff Nano said, just give her up,

484
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 5: just let her go, take her to a clinic, a hospital,

485
00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 5: drop her off.

486
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 2: Is that common? I don't recall hearing that from law enforcement.

487
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 4: You know what I've seen appeals to the abductor, and

488
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 4: even in Savannahs last individual statement, she said the same thing.

489
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 4: It's not too late to do the right thing. That's

490
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 4: the hope they're holding on to that Nancy Guthrie is

491
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 4: still alive, being kept somewhere and appealing they're giving that

492
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 4: person an off rand if they feel like I have

493
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:17,959
Speaker 4: no choice. It's been fifty days. How the heck am

494
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 4: I going to get her out of here? If this

495
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 4: is somebody with that's mentally challenged, for example, and they

496
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 4: hear something that the sheriff is speaking directly to them

497
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,760
Speaker 4: and giving them an out, there's a small chance, and

498
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 4: I mean small chance that that may speak to someone

499
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 4: out there. It's really all they have at this point.

500
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 4: And that's the only thing you can say. The other approaches,

501
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 4: We're going to find you wherever you're hiding and or

502
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 4: going to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

503
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 4: That's another approach that's been taken as well.

504
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 2: Man, they will be too at this point. I think

505
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 2: we're all so angry about this. I still have to

506
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 2: like hold out Pope. I guess I know that sounds crazy,

507
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 2: but who knows. Miracles happen. I don't have any idea,

508
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 2: But you cannot possibly have a slice of humanity if

509
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,119
Speaker 2: you don't see this interview with Savannah Guthro and not

510
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 2: want to help in any possible way. It's like everybody's

511
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:10,679
Speaker 2: worst nightmare.

512
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 10: And yeah, I really felt her and I I watched

513
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 10: it on TikTok and I was kind of sitting in

514
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 10: my bed when I woke up and I was just like, oh,

515
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 10: I mean, I had tears, tears, and it's really it's

516
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 10: really really emotional.

517
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,160
Speaker 4: I'm hopeful she can come back. But can you watch

518
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 4: Savanna in the morning getting excited about some concept or

519
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 4: something on.

520
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 2: The show and a new toaster.

521
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 4: That's going to be difficult because the this for a

522
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 4: long time too. To look at her fight through tears

523
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 4: and get excited about you know, some some cooks.

524
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 3: Recipes's difficult, it is, but it could also get her

525
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 3: mind off of it too. It could also, that's true,

526
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 3: get her mind off of it. I want to continue

527
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 3: on with sheriff very quickly. So this is a quote

528
00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 3: from supervisor Matt Hines, and he says, the Guthrie investigation,

529
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 3: because of its high profile nature, certainly reframes things and

530
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: makes people all over the world and certainly all over

531
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 3: the nation just kind of tune in and.

532
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 6: More aware of this sheriff.

533
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 3: And you know, concerns over the sheriff his prior disciplinary

534
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 3: history were highlighted in including eight suspensions totally thirty seven

535
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 3: days during his time in al Paso Police department for

536
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 3: alleged use of force in subordination, illegal gambling, and habitual tardiness.

537
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 3: And this was listen, this was in the late seventies.

538
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: This was a long time ago, though. I mean, I'm

539
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 2: not for him, but I mean, that is a lot

540
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 2: of I totally snacks on the hand, for sure, I

541
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 2: didn't like that.

542
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 3: But so the Pima County Board of Supervisors have voted

543
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 3: to require the sheriff to provide reports under oath with

544
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 3: the supervisor that I just quoted Matt Hines stating, at

545
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 3: a time when our trust in our government entities is

546
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 3: at an all time low, having this kind of information

547
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 3: come out about the highest ranking law enforcement official is

548
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,479
Speaker 3: incredibly troubling and very serious. And he also warned that

549
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 3: failure to comply could result in removal from office for

550
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 3: the sheriff.

551
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 7: Wow.

552
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 3: So I mean, this is like serious, This is very serious.

553
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 3: And I kind of wonder had Nancy Guthrie not happened

554
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 3: and the mistake said it well, the missteps along the way,

555
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 3: would this be happening or would it was it kind

556
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: of just that trained already heading anyway. I don't know,

557
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 3: but I don't think so, right, Like, I don't think

558
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 3: this would all be happening.

559
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 4: It certainly sped it up. It wasn't headed right. There's

560
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 4: been a lot of issues here. But the longer this

561
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,280
Speaker 4: goes on, somebody's got to be consequenced, and I think

562
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 4: it's going to be the sheriff at some point.

563
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 2: Unbelievable. And listen, we have this case. We can't wait

564
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 2: to talk to you about this. Jared too, the insulin

565
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 2: nurse case where she allegedly killed her friend or was

566
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: it suicide? So, Biddy, I know you had some last

567
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 2: licks to discuss about this Nancy case.

568
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I wanted to mention it's because it's kind

569
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 3: of important. Investigators are looking at January eleventh as a

570
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 3: potential date where something happened. The p MC County sheriff

571
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 3: Sheriff Chris Nanas he said, we do believe that something

572
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 3: occurred on January eleventh, and that's with the FBI's analysis

573
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 3: of the equipment and digital stuff. He said, stuff they've

574
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 3: been doing or that they've done, so something must have

575
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 3: happened on the eleventh. This was about two weeks prior

576
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,239
Speaker 3: to her going missing, because she went missing, you know,

577
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 3: the night of January thirty first into the first of February. Wow,

578
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 3: so about twenty days prior, right, something happened and they're

579
00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 3: looking at it. So I'm hoping they're on to something, right,

580
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 3: I mean, they're looking at that date, so maybe they'll

581
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 3: have a break very soon.

582
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: That's it.

583
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 6: That's all I want to say.

584
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 5: So good, Yeah, okay, I have a very important legal

585
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 5: case to get to. But I first want to acknowledge

586
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 5: Stephanie Lyideker is so poised.

587
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:20,239
Speaker 2: She sounded so good right now.

588
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, are you serious?

589
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 2: She's very serious.

590
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 4: Of it.

591
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 5: Okay, again, I couldn't believe she was actually sitting. I've

592
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 5: seen Stephanie see a bug and here we are.

593
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: We'll have her back.

594
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 5: But the case and Jarrett, we've spoken about this before

595
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 5: and now it has an ending. So a Utah jury

596
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 5: found that Nurse Megan's Sunwall guilty of manslaughter. Yeah, she's

597
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 5: guilty of manslaughter and obstruction of justice. And this is

598
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 5: in the insulin overdose death of her friend, Nurse Meghan's friend,

599
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 5: casey Lynn Terry. Now this is the one that's complicated.

600
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 5: The victim, casey Lynn Terry, had for several years falsely

601
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 5: claimed she was terminally ill and misled the now convicted

602
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 5: nurse Megan to believe that she was ill. She also

603
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 5: led the nurse to believe that there was a one

604
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 5: point five million dollar life insurance policy that existed that

605
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 5: if the victim died, those monies would go to the nurse. Well,

606
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 5: prosecutor seemed to do a pretty good job of arguing

607
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 5: that indeed, Nurse Meghan administered the fatal insulin dose, and

608
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 5: she'd been encouraging the victim for years to kind of

609
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 5: hurry up with the end of your life.

610
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: And I'm not trying to make light but she did

611
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 2: for years. No, that's literally what she was doing. Yeah, So, Jared,

612
00:33:58,680 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: what are your thoughts on the.

613
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 4: I'm not surprised, and you know, I just I recall

614
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 4: our conversation from the week before last where to me,

615
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 4: this case comes down to the fact that Megan was

616
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 4: a nurse, and a nurse, as a nurse or a

617
00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 4: medical professional, you take a hippocratic oath to provide medical

618
00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 4: care and life sustaining and supporting care. She did the

619
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 4: one hundred percent opposite here. She was cunning, she was manipulative.

620
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 4: She administered that insulin and sat there while Casey died

621
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 4: over a period of hours. She had an invested, vested

622
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,400
Speaker 4: interest in the death of Casey. So you have a

623
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 4: greed component to this. And we talked about the fact

624
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 4: that if you get into a fight and you're a

625
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 4: black belt, okay, you are judged based on your knowledge,

626
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 4: your advanced knowledge of fighting. For example, Meghan is looked

627
00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 4: at as a nurse. She has advanced medical training. If

628
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 4: someone claims to be sick, read the medical chart, go

629
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 4: over and make a determination. You're in the best position

630
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 4: to make that assessment. All of those things together were

631
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 4: all bad for Megan. Even if Casey was beingve we

632
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 4: don't victim blame in prosecution necessarily. It's not about where

633
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 4: Casey's mind was. It's all about where Megan's level of

634
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 4: intent was. And that's what I would keep saying to

635
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:33,399
Speaker 4: the jury, Like, Okay, Casey was not this model patient. Yes,

636
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 4: she had mental mental things going on and believed she

637
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 4: was sick or wanted to be sick. But Megan played

638
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,959
Speaker 4: into that vulnerability and that led to her death.

639
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 7: Wow.

640
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 3: So even though she's not her nurse, right, I mean,

641
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,879
Speaker 3: like she wasn't her nurse, so she doesn't really have

642
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 3: access to her medical records, right, But she.

643
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 4: Was providing care to her, She was counseling her, she

644
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 4: was by her bedside and administered drugs to her. So

645
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,959
Speaker 4: that makes her her nurse. So at that point you're

646
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 4: viewed and imbued with all the authority of a nurse.

647
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 4: And that's so it's a good point, but that distinction,

648
00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 4: it becomes a very fact intensive review of that relationship.

649
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,279
Speaker 4: What was Megan doing with regard to Casey. She was

650
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 4: treating her in a certain way and administer the insulin for.

651
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 6: Instance, So that gives her the like she's her nurse. Then, okay, yeah,

652
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:27,479
Speaker 6: I like that. I meeting.

653
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 2: Well, not to mention too, she was financially motivated. We

654
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 2: have those texts of her basically, you know, acknowledging the

655
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 2: fact that she assumed she was going to get paid

656
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 2: and that her life insurance policy was going to be

657
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 2: you know, left to this nurse in the event of

658
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 2: her untimely passing. So yeah, there seems to be much

659
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 2: more more to it than just her trying to assist

660
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 2: in a Frances motive. Stephanie too, Yeah, real motives.

661
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 4: Money, My life is falling apart, like die fast, So I.

662
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: Can't say basically exactly, Yeah, yeah, it's a wild case.

663
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 3: Did she say something along the lines of, yeah, you

664
00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 3: dying would certainly make life easier for me, or you

665
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 3: know something along those lines.

666
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 6: Wasn't that?

667
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 5: It was in a text, Oh, dear, I mean one

668
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 5: that I'm looking at, and there were multiple There is

669
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 5: nothing left for you here. If you dying would get

670
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 5: me out of this mess and darkness, I am in

671
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 5: I would take it. And one other one that Jarrett

672
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 5: goes so much to Nurse Megan acting as the actual

673
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,359
Speaker 5: nurse to the victim, is she asked, do you want

674
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 5: to take some promathazine when I get there, so you're

675
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 5: asleep when this is happening.

676
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't know about that one. When this is happening,

677
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 3: drop the mic.

678
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 2: I mean, think about it. That's sicko. So she was

679
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,720
Speaker 2: going over there with the intention of killing her and

680
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 2: hopefully getting paid for her assistance.

681
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 4: M M.

682
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very, very bad.

683
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 4: And the jury didn't buy that assistant suicide deal either.

684
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 4: What changes that? You know? Jack Kavorkian, to the best

685
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:05,919
Speaker 4: of my knowledge, did not have a one point five

686
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 4: million dollar policy payout waiting for him on the other

687
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,720
Speaker 4: end of his killing of his client or patience.

688
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 5: Yes, so I have one more follow up legally, so

689
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,120
Speaker 5: nurse Megan Soundwal she was found guilty of manslaughter, and

690
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 5: in this instance they the jurors had been instructed they

691
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 5: could consider lesser charges, hence the manslaughter. What determines say

692
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 5: if someone if someone's prosecuting and says murder one or

693
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 5: that's it, or if they are if jurors are given

694
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 5: the option of different levels.

695
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 4: Yes, that is a really good question, and that's a strategy.

696
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 4: My typical approach in the homicide cases I had was

697
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 4: I would charge an open count of homicide. So it

698
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 4: would say so and so is charged with homicide, and

699
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 4: what would happen is the case would proceed and then

700
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 4: the judge would instruct on the various levels of homicide. Now,

701
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:09,160
Speaker 4: if it did not involve a attending felony, second degree

702
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 4: would not be given. In Pennsylvania, for example, you'd have

703
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 4: the top which is first, a third, and then you

704
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 4: may receive the instructions of manslaughter, involuntary, involuntary. So to me,

705
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 4: that was the safest way, I believed, in clearest way,

706
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 4: to leave all options on the table, have lower options.

707
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 4: But make no mistake, if it was open, we were

708
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 4: typically going for first degree.

709
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 9: Thank you.

710
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 2: Wow.

711
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 3: I don't know what else to say about this one.

712
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 3: You know, if you want to weigh and give us

713
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 3: a call eighty eight thirty one crime.

714
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 4: Other thing I would say too, if a case is

715
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 4: clearly manslaughter, it would be charged as manslaughter too. We

716
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 4: would do that as well. We wouldn't charge somebody who

717
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 4: somebody's death resulted from reckless conduct with first degree murder.

718
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 4: My point is you would typically charge something that would

719
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 4: qualify as a first and open coal right.

720
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 2: That makes sense?

721
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, I had If i'd love to actually go

722
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 5: to another talkback about another case, if we may.

723
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 7: Hello true crime tonight, ladies and gents. Jared Barantino. I

724
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 7: have questions about the boys boys, the men that are

725
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,800
Speaker 7: brothers and why they can only be charged fifteen years

726
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,000
Speaker 7: for all of the crimes that they have committed. Can

727
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 7: you go into that a little bit and how it works.

728
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 2: Thanks, I have that same question. Great, great, great talkback.

729
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 2: Just that is an excellent talkback.

730
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 5: And just for reference, the brothers that listeners referring to

731
00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 5: are the Alexander brothers, tal Orn, and Alan, and they

732
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 5: were all three convicted on federal sex trafficking and related

733
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 5: charges for abusing women over the course of many, many years,

734
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 5: and also many women. So what's going on with this

735
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:03,760
Speaker 5: fifteen years?

736
00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:04,280
Speaker 2: Jared?

737
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 4: So I don't necessarily know where the where the fifteen

738
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 4: years is coming from. I could tell you that there

739
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 4: are many, many factors that go into the consideration of

740
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 4: a sentence that's ultimately imposed. So number one, based on

741
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 4: the charges that the Alexander brothers were convicted of, this

742
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 4: federal coercion, trafficking, all of this stuff, and the cases

743
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 4: they were the ones that were actually convicted of, there

744
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:34,520
Speaker 4: are aggravating circumstances that can enhance their sentences. So what

745
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 4: happens is the case is reviewed, a report and extensive

746
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:43,279
Speaker 4: report that the Alexander brothers may or may not participate in,

747
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 4: is generated, and a recommendation is given to the judge.

748
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 4: My understanding is the fifteen years could be for each

749
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 4: count that they're facing. Arguably they can get a consecutive

750
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 4: sentence that tax those charges together where they end up

751
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 4: looking at forty five instead of fifteen. I could be wrong,

752
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 4: but my understanding when they were convicted was they're looking

753
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 4: at more time than that, and it will come down

754
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:16,280
Speaker 4: to where their particular charge fits in the sentencing guidelines.

755
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 4: So if the answer is it's just fifteen, which I

756
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 4: don't think it is, it's because whatever they were specifically

757
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 4: convicted of and the other factors bring them into that

758
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 4: guideline range. A judge is literally handed a grid with

759
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 4: a range on it, okay, and they'll say X amount

760
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 4: of years to a higher amount of years, and the

761
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 4: judge is obligated under the lot to sentence within that guideline.

762
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 4: So if it's fifteen, it's because the crimes fall within that.

763
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:50,240
Speaker 4: But in this case, I believe and I'm pretty sure

764
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 4: that they're looking at more time if they're stacked and

765
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 4: the judge can consider a lot here. The judge can

766
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:02,840
Speaker 4: consider intoxicants were used, drug legal drugs were used, fraud

767
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 4: and coercion was used in assaulting these young women. All

768
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,480
Speaker 4: of those things together aren't beneficial for the Alexanders, and

769
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 4: the fact they took a trial hurts them as well.

770
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:14,879
Speaker 2: So true, yeah, so true. Fifteen years to me did

771
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 2: seem very low, and that tracks I really want to

772
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 2: interview the mother. How is it possible that your three

773
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 2: boys are now going to be serving time, whether it's

774
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 2: fifteen years or forty five years, for such a graageous

775
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 2: sexual crimes like the Duggers, like the Dogs, the Duggers

776
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 2: having two sons who have become sexual devians and predators,

777
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 2: even against their own sisters allegedly allegedly allegedly alleged, Well, no,

778
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 2: I think one of them. They're that well one alleged. Yeah,

779
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 2: it's not that alleged. And even one of the sisters,

780
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,240
Speaker 2: as a victim, came forward and did it really.

781
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 6: I'm saying allegedly for the new one.

782
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,400
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, for the new one. But I like their parents,

783
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 2: even the Duggers for that matter, can their parents be

784
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 2: brought into questioning.

785
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:04,879
Speaker 4: A lot of times? And I'm not speaking necessarily about

786
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 4: the Duggers or the Alexanders. These are learned behaviors, right,

787
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 4: and they're the result of how many serial killers were

788
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 4: abused in some manner in their childhood, or had some

789
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 4: serious head injury along the way, or a series of

790
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 4: head injuries. So something you could interview mom to find

791
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 4: out number one, did something before these children when they

792
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 4: were children, or were they subjected to abuse, sexual abuse

793
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 4: or physical abuse by someone in that house during their upbringing,

794
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 4: Because it's their three for three here, I mean, it's

795
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 4: not one that's shit goes out. It's they ran the

796
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 4: full game on twins. That's something that says to me,

797
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 4: there's something that went on in the past there. You

798
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 4: don't need to be Sherlock Holmes to figure that part out.

799
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 4: It's a matter of what was it? Was there in

800
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,240
Speaker 4: this Was there a bad babysitter? Was it a parent issue?

801
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 4: Was a parent abusive to another parent? And oftentimes the

802
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 4: answers lie there. Not to go all Sigmund Freud, but

803
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:05,439
Speaker 4: the answers lie there.

804
00:45:05,920 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: No, I agree, I mean honestly. And the idea that

805
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 2: these three brothers were we're doing these things together, also

806
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,359
Speaker 2: like they were all set on it in the same

807
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 2: room and sometimes were so marred. It's just it's really unfathomable,

808
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 2: especially when they're successful, you know air quotes, you know,

809
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 2: good looking guys with a lot of opportunity to get

810
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 2: a normal relationship. Instead, they really became predators, I think.

811
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 4: Four boys, and like if a brother brought a young

812
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 4: woman's home, she became like a sister. It wasn't somebody

813
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 4: another brother was going to see her take out. It

814
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 4: was like an unwritten rule.

815
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 3: Of course.

816
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 4: It was all very familiar and odd and downright dangerous

817
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 4: and their proclivities were unreal and they're going to pay

818
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 4: for it.

819
00:45:56,719 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 2: They are going to pay for it.

820
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 5: So the sentencing actually will be happening in August, so

821
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 5: we have a while to find out in the heat

822
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 5: of summer.

823
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 2: And there won't be housed together. I don't think, right,

824
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 2: that's usually something that's.

825
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: Not other thing.

826
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:16,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, coming up at the top of the hour,

827
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 3: Attorney Derett Farantino is going to stay with us, thank goodness,

828
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 3: to discuss Officer Kelsey Fitzimmons accused of turning a gun

829
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 3: on the fellow cop, but she says it was meant

830
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 3: for herself. Keep it right here, True Grime Tonight.

831
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

832
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Steph here with Courtney

833
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 2: and Body. And if you're just joining us and you

834
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 2: missed any of the first hour of the show, do

835
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:53,239
Speaker 2: not worry at all. You could always catch us right

836
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 2: after as a podcast. Now, listen, we're getting into a

837
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 2: lot of legal talk right now because our very favorite

838
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 2: prosecut it's finally back in town. Jarrett Farantino is here

839
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 2: to answer any of your questions. So if you want

840
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:09,239
Speaker 2: to call us live please do eight eight eight three

841
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 2: one crime, or of course leave us a talkback. So, Boddy,

842
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 2: this case breaks my heart a bit. This is a

843
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 2: confusing one. You know, why don't you set it up

844
00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: for us because I know we are we are entering

845
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 2: a heartbreaking conversation.

846
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:28,239
Speaker 6: We are, right. So this is the case of Kelsey Fitzsimmons.

847
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 9: Right.

848
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 3: She's a former police officer. She worked the North Andover

849
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 3: Police Okay, and she's charged with assault with a dangerous

850
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 3: weapon after allegedly, allegedly allegedly attempting to shoot Officer Patrick Noonan.

851
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 6: Okay. So she was being served a restraining order at

852
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:49,280
Speaker 6: her home when this happened.

853
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 3: Okay. So prosecutors are claiming that Kelsey raised her gun

854
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 3: and pulled the trigger, and they're arguing that Officer Noonan

855
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 3: is only alive today because the gun wasn't loaded. Right,

856
00:48:03,640 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 3: So the defense contends she intended only self harm.

857
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:08,240
Speaker 6: Okay.

858
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 3: Listen, she was right in the middle of this terrible

859
00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,759
Speaker 3: like breakup with her fiance, the father of her like

860
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 3: four month old son, Okay, And they were serving her

861
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 3: a restraining order to from her fiance, and they were

862
00:48:23,560 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 3: going to be taking custody of her son. So at

863
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 3: this moment, she's postpartum, right, she just had she was

864
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 3: having severe postpartum depressions. Her life was right, her life

865
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,439
Speaker 3: was like falling apart, right, and then her coworkers knock

866
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 3: on her door. Don't we're taking your kid. At this moment,

867
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 3: her her life is just shattered. Okay, this is a

868
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 3: this is according to her, by the way. Okay, so

869
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,719
Speaker 3: she is she's doing a bench trial, and this is

870
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:52,239
Speaker 3: something I want to talk to Jarrett about.

871
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,719
Speaker 6: So I'm really glad that he's here tonight. So a

872
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,600
Speaker 6: bench trial, Jarrett, what is a bench trial?

873
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 4: So a bench trial is a trial before a judge

874
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 4: without a jury. So you do a lot of the

875
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 4: same things. You cut out some of the dramatics and

876
00:49:08,360 --> 00:49:13,040
Speaker 4: some of the formality, and the case is streamlined and presented,

877
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:16,760
Speaker 4: and a judge makes the determination of guilt or innocence.

878
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 3: Wow, So instead of putting her fate in the twelve jurors,

879
00:49:22,120 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 3: it's in one judge.

880
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,400
Speaker 6: That seems risky to me. Do you think that's risky?

881
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 4: It is as a prosecutor when someone offers to do

882
00:49:31,480 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 4: a bench trial, and I've done my share of bench trials,

883
00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:39,800
Speaker 4: for homicides and shootings. I was always willing to agree

884
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 4: and accept that because it's a lot better for us.

885
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 4: Unless it's a largely legal question. Factually, you're going to

886
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 4: end up in pretty good shape judges, even if they're

887
00:49:52,239 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 4: defense oriented. It's a less dramatic. It's just a much

888
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 4: simpler process and judges, you hope are going to do

889
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:00,520
Speaker 4: right thing.

890
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:02,879
Speaker 3: So let me ask you a question. You said, it's

891
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 3: going to come down the legalities. As a prosecutor, right,

892
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 3: you're a former Pennsylvania prosecutor. How do you prove intent?

893
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 3: So the North Andover Police Department does not have body

894
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,759
Speaker 3: cam footage. Okay, so it's it's literally he said. She

895
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 3: said at this point, Okay, how do you prove intent here?

896
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 3: It's it's one word against you, both police officers. How

897
00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:23,839
Speaker 3: do you prove intent?

898
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 4: Well, oftentimes you don't get an admission on intent, so

899
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 4: it's always circumstantial when it comes down to it. So

900
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:34,239
Speaker 4: in this case, you're going to look at positioning of

901
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 4: their bodies, the aiming of the gun, the testimony, all

902
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 4: of the circumstances surrounding this. Does what I saw a

903
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 4: little bit of Kelsey Fitzgibbons's testimony today. A lot of

904
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 4: what she was saying, she made a very good witness,

905
00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 4: and I think something that's worth noting about her. She

906
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:55,360
Speaker 4: did three semesters of law school. And when you do

907
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 4: three semesters of law school, I'm going to let you

908
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 4: in on a little secret. Those ain't the semesters. They

909
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 4: are the hard ones. That's when you learn about the law.

910
00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 4: So she's trained in the law. She looked very believable today.

911
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 4: She was wearing glasses, her hair was up, she was

912
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,320
Speaker 4: very composed, and she was talking about whether or not

913
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:22,000
Speaker 4: she expected the officers even to come into the house,

914
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 4: and whether or not they were even going to enter

915
00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:27,440
Speaker 4: her home. Because she's a trained officer, she knows the

916
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 4: paperwork is served from the outside. She was going to

917
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:33,720
Speaker 4: kill herself. She never expected to see him there. She shocked.

918
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:37,320
Speaker 4: There's a struggle. The gun clicks, that's what she's saying happened.

919
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 4: And she told a pretty compelling story. So you have

920
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 4: to go through the attending circumstances. What brought the officer in?

921
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:47,640
Speaker 4: Did she see him enter? Was there truly this intent

922
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 4: to kill herself or was she looking to do a

923
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:55,799
Speaker 4: suicide by cop or was she looking to to raise

924
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 4: the stakes and shoot an officer, and how you prove

925
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 4: that as prior conduct if that's admissible, things of that.

926
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,440
Speaker 3: Nature, right, So let's I want to summarize that really

927
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:09,160
Speaker 3: quick for the listeners. So Kelsey testified for about ninety

928
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,839
Speaker 3: minutes today and under direct it was so really it was. Yeah,

929
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 3: So under direct questioning, she said, I wanted to take

930
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 3: my own life. I never pointed the gun at the

931
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 3: at a fellow officer. She meant, I thought that was

932
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 3: important that she said fellow police officer. And then she

933
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:28,719
Speaker 3: continued and she said it never happened. And she said that,

934
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,280
Speaker 3: you know, she was confused, but knew something was happening

935
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 3: because the officers and her coworkers knocked under door and

936
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 3: said they needed to come in, all right, and we've

937
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 3: seen the service because there's surveillance footage like from inside

938
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:43,800
Speaker 3: her porch area that we can see that this happens.

939
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 3: And she went on and she said, cops handed her

940
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:50,080
Speaker 3: the paperwork, and this is kind of this is very heartbreaking.

941
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 3: Cops handed her the paperwork and she saw that her

942
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:57,320
Speaker 3: son was also on the order, and she said, I

943
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 3: knew in that moment I was going to have to

944
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,280
Speaker 3: hand over my four month old to a police officer

945
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:05,959
Speaker 3: and to be brought out of my house. Kelsey said

946
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 3: that she lied to the officers about where her guns

947
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 3: were located, saying that they were in the basement because

948
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 3: this is I'm quoting now, because I didn't want them

949
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,800
Speaker 3: to take them away. I wanted to be alone with

950
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:21,040
Speaker 3: my firearm to take my life. I made that decision

951
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 3: as I realized I had just lost everything in a

952
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 3: fifteen second conversation with my coworker. Not that it's according

953
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 3: to Kelsey, right, Another really important person in this whole

954
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 3: story is the officer, right, Officer Patrick Noonan. And he said,

955
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 3: after the gun clicked, because again there was no round.

956
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 3: Right after the gun clicked, Kelsey tried to get another

957
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 3: round in the chamber and started to point the gun

958
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:52,680
Speaker 3: at him. The officer, Patrick Noonan. He said he fired

959
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 3: two shots at Kelsey. One hit her in the chest

960
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 3: and the other one missed. Officer Noonan's neighbor testified that

961
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:04,040
Speaker 3: the officer referred to Kelsey as a effing whack job.

962
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 2: This kind of breaks my heart. I have to just

963
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 2: jump in your fort one quick moment. Please again, this

964
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,800
Speaker 2: is a fellow officer, So for someone to call another

965
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 2: officer a whack job kind of bums me out to

966
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 2: hear that, especially after hearing her testimony. Listen, this woman

967
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 2: was in crisis. Clearly there was likely a reason that

968
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 2: her four month old was being taken from her. Ideally

969
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 2: that was just a temporary thing. By her own admission,

970
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 2: she was really struggling. And if any parent, mother or

971
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,040
Speaker 2: father with a four month old, you know, if you're

972
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 2: in that way and you think the world is coming

973
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,359
Speaker 2: to an end, you know, my heart rips out for her.

974
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 2: And here she is now, she's on trial, even though

975
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 2: she's the one that sustained the injuries, and this is

976
00:54:46,160 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 2: a very complicated case. She's the one that got shot

977
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 2: by said officers. So her pal the one that's calling

978
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,360
Speaker 2: her a whack job, who really needs work together. You know,

979
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 2: I thought that was very mean to he admitted to it.

980
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 2: I was santi I know, I didn't like it. I

981
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 2: kind of wanted him to feel a bit more compassion

982
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 2: for her.

983
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 3: Right, she had a collapse from his sake, But from

984
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 3: his perspective, she tried to kill him, right, I mean

985
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 3: that's what he's saying, that she.

986
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:16,800
Speaker 4: Put it out in his world, she could be a

987
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 4: whack job, and he was doing the right thing that

988
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 4: day in defending himself. So I'm sure, I'm sure that

989
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 4: that's the way Patrick Noonan sees it.

990
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 2: Sure.

991
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 4: And the other thing about whether the guns were upstairs

992
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 4: or downstairs, that the argument on the other side is

993
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 4: she was leading officers away from those guns saying they

994
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 4: were downstairs, and she went upstairs to get.

995
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:40,760
Speaker 2: The gun right exactly.

996
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 4: And that's again that's someone who's thinking through I'm going

997
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 4: to get my gun. I'm at the end of my

998
00:55:47,200 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 4: rope here. I'm going to take down whoever can go

999
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:52,840
Speaker 4: down with me if I'm in fact going to kill myself.

1000
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 4: But here's the thing. All of the things that we're

1001
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 4: talking about right now will not have as much play

1002
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,320
Speaker 4: with it as it would with a jury. And I

1003
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:05,319
Speaker 4: wonder if it was a good decision on her part.

1004
00:56:05,640 --> 00:56:08,080
Speaker 4: I think a bench trial, when I think much of

1005
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 4: this would have had better play with a jury. I

1006
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:12,800
Speaker 4: think if judge is more likely to see if it

1007
00:56:12,960 --> 00:56:15,839
Speaker 4: is truly smoke and mirrors and this is more clear

1008
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:18,879
Speaker 4: cut than Kelsey would have you believe, and it's more

1009
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 4: like Patrick Noonan says, then a jury is more likely

1010
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 4: to see it Kelsey's way than a judge.

1011
00:56:26,000 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's very interesting.

1012
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, if you're just joining us, we're talking about the

1013
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 5: case of Kelly Fitzsimmons.

1014
00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 2: It's a complicated case.

1015
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:37,760
Speaker 5: She's an officer charged with assault with the dangerous weapon

1016
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 5: after allegedly attempting to shoot her fellow officer. Prosecutor Jarrett

1017
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:47,399
Speaker 5: Farantino is with us, So if you have questions, you'd

1018
00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:49,320
Speaker 5: give us a call and ask him directly.

1019
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 2: Eight eight eight three one crime. So jareded this.

1020
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,399
Speaker 5: The prosecution pointed to comments that a neighbor had made

1021
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 5: online about this whole thing being a setup from the

1022
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 5: get go and comparing it to the Karen Reid case.

1023
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 2: Any thoughts on.

1024
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:16,280
Speaker 4: That, Well, every case is unique, and I hope there's

1025
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 4: not another Karen Reid case as long as we all live.

1026
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:26,640
Speaker 4: But it's not that because here's the thing. Kelsey puts

1027
00:57:26,720 --> 00:57:29,440
Speaker 4: the gun in her hand. This is a different story.

1028
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:33,080
Speaker 4: You know, it wasn't a she's saying, I did have

1029
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 4: that gun, I did want to kill myself, I did

1030
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 4: aim it at myself, and I did not intend to

1031
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 4: shoot the officer. So there's not a lot of dispute

1032
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:44,840
Speaker 4: what happened here where the rubber meets the road is

1033
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:48,400
Speaker 4: whether or not she was intending on shooting officer knew.

1034
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 4: It's a far cry from the Karen Reid case. When

1035
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 4: the Karen Reid case was the police actually murdered John O'Keefe,

1036
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:01,000
Speaker 4: covered it up, and framed Karen Reid. That's about four

1037
00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 4: different steps ahead of where this is. It's not that

1038
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 4: I don't think why are we even I mean, the

1039
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 4: officer didn't go in there knowing that gun was unloaded

1040
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 4: and then say, I'm just going to say she aimed

1041
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 4: it at me, but I went in to shoot her

1042
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:13,400
Speaker 4: she was holding the gun.

1043
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 2: But why would we even prosecute this case at this point?

1044
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 2: I feel like this woman has been through enough and

1045
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 2: if this guy was not shot, he was not injured.

1046
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 2: They are, you know, coworkers at least you know, doesn't

1047
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 2: sound like they're best of friends by any means. Clearly,

1048
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 2: he called her a whack job. She's the one that

1049
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 2: sustained the injuries. She's the one that had to be

1050
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 2: pulled from her child. She's the one that's suffering from

1051
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:37,200
Speaker 2: the postpartum She acknowledges these things. Can we just get

1052
00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 2: her some mental help and get her reunited with her family. Again,

1053
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 2: I mean idea, here's extreme.

1054
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 4: In my experience, I wouldn't have charged this as legally

1055
00:58:46,680 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 4: it could qualify as an attempt to learn. But the

1056
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,600
Speaker 4: gun is loaded. That aside. In my office, boy, if

1057
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 4: he charges attempted murder, you got to come damn close

1058
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 4: to killing somebody. We used to like scratch our heads

1059
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:00,439
Speaker 4: and say like if the DA didn't approve the charge,

1060
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 4: be like, why hasn't he approven attempted murder here? But

1061
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 4: it just has to be there. And in this case, again,

1062
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 4: a judge is more likely to hit you with this charge.

1063
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 4: A jury would look at this and say, how could

1064
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 4: you attempt to kill somebody with an unloaded gun? This

1065
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:17,919
Speaker 4: is crazy? And you're out there on that alone made

1066
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,080
Speaker 4: I think he is quite It's not a great case.

1067
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 4: It's not a great case for attempted murder. I don't

1068
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 4: certainly none of us know what happened in there, but

1069
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 4: I just I'm watching all of you, and I see

1070
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 4: you're being moved by her emotion. The nature of the situation.

1071
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:36,920
Speaker 4: Your child, a four month old child, is being taken

1072
00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 4: from you, your relationship, which she said she did not

1073
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 4: know the relationship was ending at that moment she found

1074
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:45,360
Speaker 4: out when she gets served with the paperwork by noon

1075
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 4: So that's another issue.

1076
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 2: That's how humiliating you're getting served by your buddy at

1077
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 2: work too, who you think probably thinks you're a whack

1078
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 2: job already. And if you see the body cam footage,

1079
00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:58,520
Speaker 2: you know she was. She's in a state. I mean,

1080
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:01,240
Speaker 2: it's pretty the cart the hot mess.

1081
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 4: If you ask me here, you did ask me. I

1082
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 4: think it's I.

1083
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 3: Think I do think the click is important here though.

1084
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 3: I think that if because the click basically is the

1085
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 3: gun making a sound without a bullet in it, right,

1086
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 3: So if you have a weapon and you fire it

1087
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 3: and there's no round, you know, it's just it's going

1088
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 3: to make a click. I think that click is why

1089
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 3: she's being prosecuted because it's an attempt.

1090
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 4: Right, Oh that's why. And and and again body, you're correct,

1091
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:38,520
Speaker 4: that fits. The click means she squeezed the trigger, right,

1092
01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 4: I mean, that's why you have it says she's trying

1093
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 4: to shoot at him again like it was even further intent.

1094
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 4: So Noonan has a perceived ability. It perceives that she

1095
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 4: has the ability to carry this out. She's going to

1096
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:56,480
Speaker 4: shoot him, which is why he has to shoot her right.

1097
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 4: You know. The other part of this too is if

1098
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:02,680
Speaker 4: they didn't charge her, then Noonan's response may have been

1099
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 4: considered excessive. And that's another thing we got to think about.

1100
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 3: And that's a lot of people are saying that, I

1101
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 3: think I think it was.

1102
01:01:10,760 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 2: I think it was. I think it lacked a bit

1103
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 2: of compassion, especially if it's somebody that you know in

1104
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:16,680
Speaker 2: a very tricky situation. You would think, if this is

1105
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 2: somebody that's like one of you, that it wouldn't be

1106
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 2: so formal. You're ripping a child out of someone's hands.

1107
01:01:23,520 --> 01:01:25,680
Speaker 2: I don't know. I see all sides of this, but

1108
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 2: this one, just to me seems like she suffered enough.

1109
01:01:29,360 --> 01:01:32,960
Speaker 2: He deserves a proper apology, and everybody should get on

1110
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:33,439
Speaker 2: with the show.

1111
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:35,760
Speaker 4: We should know by the end of the week. The

1112
01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 4: good news On a bench trials, they go very very fast,

1113
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 4: or at least by early next week. We're not going

1114
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 4: to have like a several week bench trial.

1115
01:01:43,320 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 2: Does a judge deliberate in private, Yes.

1116
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:51,360
Speaker 4: They can, but oh yes, they do deliver and they

1117
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 4: talk to your opinions sometime later. They don't deliberate while

1118
01:01:54,560 --> 01:01:56,600
Speaker 4: they're on the bench. Although some of them are bad

1119
01:01:57,520 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 4: I could see them.

1120
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:01,080
Speaker 2: Deliberate, yeah moving me.

1121
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1122
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,439
Speaker 5: Well, listen, Jared, we have to thank you so much

1123
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 5: as always for joining us. We threw a lot of

1124
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 5: cases that you Chachler and yeah, anyone who wants more

1125
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 5: of Attorney Jared Farantino than follow him on Instagram at

1126
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:22,680
Speaker 5: Jarrett Farentino and pre order his upcoming book, Mothers, Murders

1127
01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 5: and Motivations.

1128
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 2: Thank you, Jared. Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio.

1129
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 2: We're talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker

1130
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 2: here with Courtney Armstrong and body move in big thanks

1131
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:49,720
Speaker 2: yet again to Jarrett Farentino to really just kind of

1132
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 2: come here and jump in. We just throw a lot

1133
01:02:52,560 --> 01:02:56,160
Speaker 2: at him live and he's such a great, a great

1134
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 2: asset to the show and we're so glad, so thank

1135
01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 2: you for all the talkbacks in questions and frankly, we're

1136
01:03:02,000 --> 01:03:03,240
Speaker 2: going to go to another one right now.

1137
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 4: Hate you crum.

1138
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 5: You're talking about the best threat and I am praying

1139
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:10,520
Speaker 5: I'm not the only one that thinks it's insane number

1140
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:12,920
Speaker 5: one that they signed her on to be the bach

1141
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:13,720
Speaker 5: Thrette to begin with.

1142
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:18,120
Speaker 4: Mormon, Wow, these are the actions of a Mormon woman

1143
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 4: modern or not. You're kidding me.

1144
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 9: She has a child, she's going to leave this child

1145
01:03:22,680 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 9: for thirty days.

1146
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 7: She's talking openly about her ex and domestic violence.

1147
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:28,960
Speaker 4: Are you kidding me?

1148
01:03:29,440 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 2: Have our standards really become that bad? Words out of

1149
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 2: my mouth? I could not agree more.

1150
01:03:38,160 --> 01:03:41,280
Speaker 5: I thought you were agreeing and saying word like eighties

1151
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 5: no word word word.

1152
01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 2: Yes, I think our standards are lowering because it's like

1153
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 2: I don't know. Yes, I think it's you know, even

1154
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:54,120
Speaker 2: the whole the whole show. Again, I hadn't really walked.

1155
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:55,760
Speaker 2: And now, of course I'm watching it. You know, don't

1156
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:57,520
Speaker 2: hate me for it, but I'm definitely going back and

1157
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:00,760
Speaker 2: watching The Mormon Wives. And look, I mean there's a

1158
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:04,480
Speaker 2: lot of scandal in that show. This is more scandalous

1159
01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 2: than I was expecting because of the Mormon part of it.

1160
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 2: I didn't think that they were all entangled in some

1161
01:04:10,120 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 2: sort of They were all having sex with each other.

1162
01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 6: There was like a lot going on TikTok before it

1163
01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 6: was on the Mormon Wives. It was like a big

1164
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 6: thing on TikTok for a while.

1165
01:04:19,400 --> 01:04:21,160
Speaker 2: They were all having orgies and things.

1166
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:25,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, they were swinging, right, yes, so not all of

1167
01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 6: them but no, we were some a lot.

1168
01:04:29,440 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 2: Of how many do we think? You know? And literally, Courtney,

1169
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 2: you said this earlier. It's episode one. You see her

1170
01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 2: outside being arrested. So this is not a well kept secret.

1171
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 2: This is a no brainer. Like you literally, you literally

1172
01:04:44,600 --> 01:04:50,880
Speaker 2: contractually brought in a violent domestic cheater into the Bachelor

1173
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 2: with the hopes of finding love. That's ridiculous. That is

1174
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,000
Speaker 2: not the goal in the show anymore, though, I know,

1175
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 2: but I don't think audiences know that. Are I feel that,

1176
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 2: And like, by the way, in my day, it literally

1177
01:05:03,200 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 2: was all we were all hypnotized. All we did was

1178
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 2: talk about love. Were like, oh you honestly you were

1179
01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:12,000
Speaker 2: crying every day and like talking about love. It really was.

1180
01:05:13,160 --> 01:05:15,400
Speaker 2: It sounds ridiculous and maybe I was very low in

1181
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:18,080
Speaker 2: the totem pole at those times, but you know, we

1182
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:20,280
Speaker 2: sort of all drank the kool aid and believed like

1183
01:05:20,480 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 2: love could potentially conquer all. I believed it did. You know,

1184
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:29,439
Speaker 2: it was very successful, very successful. So this seems gross.

1185
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:32,240
Speaker 3: I just feel like with socialism, I just feel like

1186
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:37,680
Speaker 3: with social media and all the drama that people watch

1187
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 3: on social media, because listen, the drama is what sells.

1188
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:43,960
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't think that's the case anymore. I disagree.

1189
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 2: I firmly disagree.

1190
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:49,440
Speaker 3: I'm talking about social media and it absolutely is one

1191
01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:53,240
Speaker 3: hundred percent. Like give me an example, I don't know,

1192
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:57,080
Speaker 3: the people fighting about something anything.

1193
01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:00,560
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, Instagram like sometimes that's like blue.

1194
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:02,760
Speaker 3: Things right now is huge on social media because of

1195
01:06:02,800 --> 01:06:04,440
Speaker 3: all the kids surrounding them.

1196
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it'spiest, but like what example, So like you

1197
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:13,920
Speaker 2: people are fighting literally fist fighting.

1198
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 3: Well, arguing like fist fighting, like I r L streaming

1199
01:06:18,840 --> 01:06:21,520
Speaker 3: is huge. IRL streaming is huge, and they usually set

1200
01:06:21,600 --> 01:06:24,920
Speaker 3: up scenarios where there's going to be some kind of confrontation.

1201
01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:27,800
Speaker 3: Those are just really popular. And I feel like the

1202
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 3: networks are like, we got to catch up to social media,

1203
01:06:30,720 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 3: and so let's get this crazy broad on.

1204
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:33,439
Speaker 6: It'd be great.

1205
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 3: I really do.

1206
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:37,480
Speaker 2: I believe it. I think it's so tired and delusional

1207
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 2: and I agree with you say crazy times again, I'm

1208
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:42,000
Speaker 2: not on a soapbox. I've made more of most of

1209
01:06:42,040 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 2: the craziest television that has ever been made. Sure, so

1210
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:49,800
Speaker 2: like I'm not coming at this as like you know,

1211
01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:53,480
Speaker 2: from a Lily White, Oh my Virgin ears. I get it,

1212
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:57,480
Speaker 2: but like it was actually real, like there was an actual,

1213
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:02,800
Speaker 2: real moment where it real thing happened. That was wild

1214
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 2: because real people in a you know, a fabricated environment,

1215
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 2: but like that's who they were, and sort of if

1216
01:07:10,600 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 2: they got into a fight, you were like, I can't

1217
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:15,360
Speaker 2: believe they're fighting right now. You weren't setting up a

1218
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 2: stage for silliness completely or even inauthenticness to happen. And

1219
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 2: in this case, yeah, they were just like signing up

1220
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:24,880
Speaker 2: crazies and that was the goal.

1221
01:07:25,080 --> 01:07:27,280
Speaker 3: And I think always that's the new television.

1222
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:27,680
Speaker 6: I really do.

1223
01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 2: I think it's over. I do. I think it is

1224
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:33,439
Speaker 2: just the shark. It is so tired. And I don't

1225
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:36,040
Speaker 2: know this about social media though I don't watch. If anything,

1226
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:39,040
Speaker 2: I think social media was catching up with reality shows

1227
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:42,480
Speaker 2: and now maybe that's the reset. I think social media

1228
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 2: came after well after Jersey Shore.

1229
01:07:45,360 --> 01:07:47,160
Speaker 3: Well, no, it did, I mean for sure, but it

1230
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:49,880
Speaker 3: escalated very quickly on social media, where it didn't escalate

1231
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 3: very quickly on network television and like viewership, Like I

1232
01:07:53,400 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 3: don't even have cable TV anymore.

1233
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:57,640
Speaker 6: I just don't. I mean, I don't.

1234
01:07:58,280 --> 01:07:59,840
Speaker 3: So I just feel like some of the networks are

1235
01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:01,960
Speaker 3: like and I'm not talking about streaming services. I'm talking

1236
01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:06,520
Speaker 3: about networks like the big one, CBS, ABC, NBC, you know, FX,

1237
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 3: those guys Fox. I just feel like they're like, we

1238
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:11,640
Speaker 3: got to get up, you know, we got to get

1239
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 3: our viewership up. And what brings viewers a beautiful, crazy lady.

1240
01:08:17,400 --> 01:08:20,639
Speaker 2: Well, you know what, though, again something is different though

1241
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,160
Speaker 2: this time, and I wish I I'm going to do

1242
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:27,519
Speaker 2: a little digging because remember the original Golden Bachelor, not

1243
01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 2: this last one because that was kind of I remember that,

1244
01:08:30,240 --> 01:08:34,040
Speaker 2: but the one, the first one, which was extremely earnest,

1245
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:37,679
Speaker 2: you know, it was the opposite of there was no fighting.

1246
01:08:38,360 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 2: Those ladies were riotous. They actually all made best friends

1247
01:08:41,479 --> 01:08:43,759
Speaker 2: and were baking and cooking and kind of were acting

1248
01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 2: their age appropriate and like building each other up. And

1249
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 2: that crushed in the numbers. Like that was actually such

1250
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 2: a little a note that, all right, there's a shift happening.

1251
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 4: Now.

1252
01:08:54,600 --> 01:08:56,720
Speaker 2: There's only so many fist fights and hot tubs you

1253
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:59,960
Speaker 2: can see after a while, when you eventually become immune

1254
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:02,720
Speaker 2: to it. And then I think social media likely took over,

1255
01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:04,960
Speaker 2: and now I think it's just tired.

1256
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:07,760
Speaker 6: I hope you're right, because I'm tired of it.

1257
01:09:08,520 --> 01:09:11,639
Speaker 2: Although Love Island still you know, and I'm a sucker

1258
01:09:11,680 --> 01:09:13,920
Speaker 2: for that Bachelor in Paradise, so as I say that,

1259
01:09:15,320 --> 01:09:17,040
Speaker 2: but I kind of feel like that's a different thing.

1260
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:20,000
Speaker 2: You know, we're not really looking for, you know, violence.

1261
01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:23,000
Speaker 2: I also don't love this, Dakota. I know this is

1262
01:09:23,000 --> 01:09:26,280
Speaker 2: a very unpopular opinion. I don't think it stinks that

1263
01:09:26,439 --> 01:09:29,040
Speaker 2: this guy was sitting on a tape for three years

1264
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:32,200
Speaker 2: and those two bone heads were having sex right before

1265
01:09:32,320 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 2: she went to the Bachelor to go find love, and

1266
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:37,559
Speaker 2: just before her big moment when all of these things

1267
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:40,120
Speaker 2: are going to premiere. Now he's saying, oh wait, I

1268
01:09:40,240 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 2: forgot I had been viciously abused three years ago, and

1269
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:46,960
Speaker 2: her kids should be taken away. That also kind of

1270
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:51,519
Speaker 2: smells to me too. So they're both yeah, and I

1271
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:52,599
Speaker 2: hope she gets to help.

1272
01:09:53,400 --> 01:09:54,160
Speaker 9: I hope so too.

1273
01:09:54,520 --> 01:09:55,280
Speaker 7: Let's talk.

1274
01:09:56,560 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 11: I wanted to answer Ada's question about what case is

1275
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 11: your empire. I don't have a case so much as

1276
01:10:02,280 --> 01:10:05,200
Speaker 11: a place that is infamous in both the paranormal investigation

1277
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:09,240
Speaker 11: world and the true crime investation world, and that is

1278
01:10:09,400 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 11: the Cecil Hotel. I get so into it that the

1279
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:16,080
Speaker 11: other night I was explaining it to my husband because

1280
01:10:16,200 --> 01:10:19,080
Speaker 11: he's never heard of it for some reason, and I

1281
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:21,919
Speaker 11: think he half expected me to randomly pull out a chalkboard.

1282
01:10:25,560 --> 01:10:27,000
Speaker 2: Have you guys been Hotel?

1283
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:27,720
Speaker 4: I have?

1284
01:10:28,000 --> 01:10:36,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, have you Courtney No, which is kind of odd,

1285
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:43,560
Speaker 5: particularly since Paranor I did Paranormal time, But I know

1286
01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:47,080
Speaker 5: it's popular. I remember when the Cecil Hotel the doc

1287
01:10:47,720 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 5: the Doctor came out.

1288
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:50,040
Speaker 6: It was really bad.

1289
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 5: But yeah, it's a place in downtown hotel. It's been notorious.

1290
01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:57,200
Speaker 5: Richard violent deaths.

1291
01:10:57,320 --> 01:11:01,759
Speaker 9: Yep, oh is that the one didn't Brian Murphy also

1292
01:11:02,200 --> 01:11:05,760
Speaker 9: do like series there correct Gotcha.

1293
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:07,720
Speaker 6: And there's a case that you know, the se is

1294
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:08,240
Speaker 6: a hotel.

1295
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:11,840
Speaker 3: The documentary that you're talking about of a girl who

1296
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:15,920
Speaker 3: you know, there's surveillance footage and it's kind of eerie

1297
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:18,280
Speaker 3: and then she ends up in a water tank on

1298
01:11:18,320 --> 01:11:25,000
Speaker 3: the roof and it's very like controversial, and it's it's

1299
01:11:25,120 --> 01:11:28,479
Speaker 3: it's known to it's known to be like haunted. There's

1300
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:30,360
Speaker 3: a lot that goes on there. And of course Richard

1301
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:33,280
Speaker 3: Richard Ramirez stayed there. A bunch of people have stayed there.

1302
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:37,240
Speaker 3: I've been there. It's kind of like in a in

1303
01:11:37,320 --> 01:11:41,080
Speaker 3: a really bad area of telling you, yeah, it's not

1304
01:11:41,200 --> 01:11:41,800
Speaker 3: a great place.

1305
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:43,599
Speaker 6: Listen, you're not missing much.

1306
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:47,320
Speaker 2: Don't You're not missing much. If you don't get in

1307
01:11:47,600 --> 01:11:49,439
Speaker 2: the hotel, you might get killed outside of it.

1308
01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:51,240
Speaker 9: Outside right, well for sure.

1309
01:11:51,560 --> 01:11:53,120
Speaker 6: And I felt like I needed to take a shower

1310
01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:54,280
Speaker 6: the entire time I was there.

1311
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:56,040
Speaker 9: I got to get.

1312
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:59,120
Speaker 3: It's like a kind of place where you rent the

1313
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:01,439
Speaker 3: room for like a couple hours.

1314
01:12:03,280 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 2: Just tell more, what was I doing there? It's the

1315
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:13,559
Speaker 2: last place you'd go for a couple of hours. No, listen,

1316
01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:15,960
Speaker 2: you just go there and like grab a drink, I guess,

1317
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:16,960
Speaker 2: or they even have a bar.

1318
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:18,560
Speaker 3: I don't even know if they have a bar. I

1319
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:23,240
Speaker 3: don't think they do. It's kind of like it's it's

1320
01:12:23,320 --> 01:12:26,600
Speaker 3: not a good place, like I said, Yeah, it's not.

1321
01:12:26,960 --> 01:12:29,519
Speaker 2: Not into haunted things. If I could just not court me,

1322
01:12:29,760 --> 01:12:33,960
Speaker 2: I am, I would be petrified. I would never stay

1323
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:38,639
Speaker 2: at the season a million years look for a million dollars,

1324
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:42,439
Speaker 2: I would be petrified. I'm scared of my own shadow,

1325
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:45,200
Speaker 2: and especially just like the tricks that your mind can

1326
01:12:45,280 --> 01:12:49,320
Speaker 2: play on yourself, and they do. Yeah, like count me out.

1327
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:52,680
Speaker 2: I've heard the greatest ghost stories. Obviously, Courtney made so

1328
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:56,320
Speaker 2: many ghost story shows, and you know, some of her

1329
01:12:56,400 --> 01:12:58,760
Speaker 2: pals from that show. You know, they say there are

1330
01:12:58,840 --> 01:13:00,680
Speaker 2: no ghosts. You know, I think Courtney has you know,

1331
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:02,720
Speaker 2: seen stuff. I'm sure I would go there and be like,

1332
01:13:02,760 --> 01:13:04,439
Speaker 2: I see ghosts everywhere. Have you come?

1333
01:13:05,360 --> 01:13:09,880
Speaker 5: Yeah? No, Well, the all of the stories came with

1334
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:15,680
Speaker 5: visual amusing, amusing my fingers evidence, some of which was

1335
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:18,320
Speaker 5: really hard. But no, I never Also, Stephanie, I'm with

1336
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:21,280
Speaker 5: you and I actually don't know where you two other

1337
01:13:21,840 --> 01:13:22,600
Speaker 5: everyone else I be.

1338
01:13:23,600 --> 01:13:24,840
Speaker 2: I never wanted to go.

1339
01:13:25,120 --> 01:13:29,120
Speaker 5: I was invited to so many hotells, et cetera, and

1340
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:31,240
Speaker 5: I chose not to personally.

1341
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:35,160
Speaker 6: I stayed at Park. I stayed at Park where.

1342
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:37,560
Speaker 2: The shining roamed. Why would you ever do that?

1343
01:13:38,120 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 6: Oh it's beautiful, it'sutiful.

1344
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:42,880
Speaker 2: Wait the one I thought it was in Bamf.

1345
01:13:43,800 --> 01:13:47,280
Speaker 3: No, it's in st It's in Colorado. BAMF is fort

1346
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:49,880
Speaker 3: to have never been there. I stayed at There's a

1347
01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:52,280
Speaker 3: place in Eureka Springs, Arkansas. I think it's called the

1348
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:53,160
Speaker 3: nineteen forty eight.

1349
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:53,720
Speaker 6: I stayed there.

1350
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:59,280
Speaker 2: Oh wait from Courtney that no, I do see your ghost.

1351
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:03,200
Speaker 5: I do several stories there, and that hotel was beautiful

1352
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:04,280
Speaker 5: to my recollection.

1353
01:14:04,479 --> 01:14:09,639
Speaker 3: That's what tempted me. It was so gorgeous, like why, yeah,

1354
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:13,040
Speaker 3: so it used to be like a former women's Like

1355
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:17,800
Speaker 3: is sane my own? No, I swear to god. I

1356
01:14:17,840 --> 01:14:19,920
Speaker 3: went there with my friend Shelley. We went there for

1357
01:14:20,040 --> 01:14:20,720
Speaker 3: Valentine's Day.

1358
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:22,840
Speaker 2: I don't know what Shelley on Valentine's Day.

1359
01:14:22,920 --> 01:14:25,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, we went there. We were both like two single gals,

1360
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:27,439
Speaker 3: were like, oh, let's just go do something together.

1361
01:14:27,560 --> 01:14:30,639
Speaker 6: So we went. And I flew into North Arkansas Airport

1362
01:14:30,720 --> 01:14:32,200
Speaker 6: and never been there before. I was like, oh my god,

1363
01:14:32,240 --> 01:14:33,040
Speaker 6: what am I doing here.

1364
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:36,240
Speaker 3: In the Ozarks? It's gorgeous. But I get to the

1365
01:14:36,280 --> 01:14:38,360
Speaker 3: hotel and I'm reading about the history. It was like

1366
01:14:38,400 --> 01:14:42,160
Speaker 3: a former women's like institution of some kind. And I'm

1367
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:45,000
Speaker 3: not even getting you. We went to bed the first night,

1368
01:14:45,479 --> 01:14:48,720
Speaker 3: at like three o'clock in the morning, I swear I

1369
01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:51,960
Speaker 3: heard a gurney going like, you know, like a medical gurney,

1370
01:14:52,040 --> 01:14:53,200
Speaker 3: like a stainless steal.

1371
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:56,200
Speaker 6: Like from like nineteen twenties, like like the broken wheel,

1372
01:14:56,640 --> 01:14:58,800
Speaker 6: like going down. I got the chills right now talking

1373
01:14:58,800 --> 01:14:59,080
Speaker 6: about it.

1374
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:01,519
Speaker 2: It's scared. The c It woke us both up.

1375
01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:04,799
Speaker 6: We both heard it. Yeah, it was scary.

1376
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 2: And then you stay or did you leave?

1377
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:07,280
Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah?

1378
01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:09,800
Speaker 2: We stayed. We loved it. We loved it.

1379
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:11,760
Speaker 9: Would have chilled out immediately.

1380
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:15,120
Speaker 2: I would have checked it immediately. In no way, no way,

1381
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:17,439
Speaker 2: the airway. I believe in ghost.

1382
01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:19,720
Speaker 9: Sorry, I was just gonna say, did you ever go

1383
01:15:19,760 --> 01:15:22,519
Speaker 9: to the Amityville Horror House, because you know I'm there.

1384
01:15:22,880 --> 01:15:23,920
Speaker 6: You guys have have you?

1385
01:15:24,160 --> 01:15:26,040
Speaker 2: Yeah? For a long island please, That's where we used

1386
01:15:26,040 --> 01:15:28,519
Speaker 2: to go and have cocktails. That that is a place

1387
01:15:28,560 --> 01:15:31,439
Speaker 2: that we would go to. Oh you were scared, Well

1388
01:15:31,479 --> 01:15:33,439
Speaker 2: I didn't go in it. Somebody lives in it, but

1389
01:15:33,560 --> 01:15:35,360
Speaker 2: we would go outside of it because I had those

1390
01:15:35,400 --> 01:15:37,200
Speaker 2: like iconic windows you know that.

1391
01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:40,320
Speaker 6: Yeah it is, and that's why that's back to the house, right.

1392
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:43,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, it's scary. I mean, listen, it's scary. But

1393
01:15:43,720 --> 01:15:46,280
Speaker 2: I have never seen a ghost. I've lost people that

1394
01:15:46,360 --> 01:15:48,960
Speaker 2: I love and I've seen to see them, but I've

1395
01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:50,599
Speaker 2: never seen a ghost. But I believe in there.

1396
01:15:52,360 --> 01:15:54,960
Speaker 9: I never told the best story to me when you

1397
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:57,680
Speaker 9: were saying you saw footage of some It was a

1398
01:15:57,720 --> 01:16:00,439
Speaker 9: couple laying in bed and they set up the camera

1399
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:03,040
Speaker 9: at night so that they can they thought the home

1400
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:07,040
Speaker 9: was haunted, and you saw little footprints at night on

1401
01:16:07,200 --> 01:16:10,000
Speaker 9: the bed walking across to me. That was the freakiest

1402
01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:11,080
Speaker 9: thing I've ever heard.

1403
01:16:11,400 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 2: A stop it.

1404
01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 9: I don't know how you stop it.

1405
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:19,240
Speaker 5: You saw that, Courtney Yeah on video Yes, and interviewed

1406
01:16:19,280 --> 01:16:22,840
Speaker 5: the women and then interviewed The segment was called Creepy Sleep.

1407
01:16:23,280 --> 01:16:28,439
Speaker 2: I remember it. It was well sided a movie.

1408
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:31,479
Speaker 3: There's a movie that I think is kind of about that.

1409
01:16:31,479 --> 01:16:33,040
Speaker 3: I think it's called Paranormal Activity.

1410
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:34,040
Speaker 2: Oh it's so scary.

1411
01:16:34,280 --> 01:16:36,559
Speaker 6: Oh it's so scary. I'm gonna watch.

1412
01:16:37,520 --> 01:16:40,640
Speaker 2: Is too scary for me. Their witch when she's in

1413
01:16:40,720 --> 01:16:43,760
Speaker 2: the corner at the end, too much, too much. I

1414
01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:44,600
Speaker 2: love it.

1415
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:46,679
Speaker 6: There's nothing I like more than being scared.

1416
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:47,360
Speaker 3: I don't know why.

1417
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:49,560
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, I like it.

1418
01:16:49,720 --> 01:16:52,200
Speaker 2: I used to. I mean I I must because we

1419
01:16:52,280 --> 01:16:54,479
Speaker 2: talk about a lot of scary things. But I see it.

1420
01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:57,800
Speaker 3: I mean like paranormally, like a paranormal like a guy

1421
01:16:57,880 --> 01:17:02,200
Speaker 3: with a knife. No, but I'm like, oh, I'm like yeah.

1422
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:06,559
Speaker 2: Like I go through those like Halloween things where it's

1423
01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:10,400
Speaker 2: the real people like at universe. Yeah, yeah, like it is.

1424
01:17:10,640 --> 01:17:13,920
Speaker 2: I am not built for it. I have that horrible scream.

1425
01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:22,840
Speaker 2: I can't scream. I'm gonna sweat. I am like building's

1426
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:26,120
Speaker 2: mind is petrified.

1427
01:17:27,360 --> 01:17:30,200
Speaker 9: Is it really Yeah, mine is a definite high pitched

1428
01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:32,280
Speaker 9: woman like to the point where the people at those

1429
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:36,599
Speaker 9: haunted houses they've actually not complained. I wouldn't use that word,

1430
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 9: but they they've loosely said to keep it down a bit,

1431
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:42,360
Speaker 9: to calm down.

1432
01:17:46,040 --> 01:17:47,799
Speaker 2: Goal is to make people scream.

1433
01:17:50,600 --> 01:17:52,400
Speaker 6: My face hurts. I'm laughing too hard.

1434
01:17:53,640 --> 01:17:54,120
Speaker 9: That's sad.

1435
01:17:56,360 --> 01:18:00,880
Speaker 3: Well, listen, stick around. We've got more to dig into.

1436
01:18:01,200 --> 01:18:02,600
Speaker 3: We still got more talkbacks to get to.

1437
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:02,920
Speaker 2: Listen.

1438
01:18:02,920 --> 01:18:04,640
Speaker 6: Hopefully we'll get through them without cracking up.

1439
01:18:05,320 --> 01:18:06,000
Speaker 2: Keep it right here.

1440
01:18:06,120 --> 01:18:08,400
Speaker 6: True Crime Tonight. We're talking true crime all the time.

1441
01:18:19,320 --> 01:18:22,200
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight, an iHeartRadio. We're talking

1442
01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:25,120
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm staff here with Courtney

1443
01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:27,920
Speaker 2: and Body and of course we have Taha Salmon Adam

1444
01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:30,720
Speaker 2: in the house as well. Wave come on, give a

1445
01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:35,639
Speaker 2: little hello there, Yes, look at Adam in there. Listen,

1446
01:18:35,680 --> 01:18:37,760
Speaker 2: we're trying a little video element here.

1447
01:18:38,760 --> 01:18:39,120
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1448
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:45,320
Speaker 2: Courtney just ripped out her magnifying glass like a good

1449
01:18:45,960 --> 01:18:50,400
Speaker 2: super saluted dun dune Dune. Anyway, this has been a

1450
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:55,000
Speaker 2: very fun show. Should we go to talk with Yeah,

1451
01:18:55,080 --> 01:18:57,240
Speaker 2: let's do it Tetra Crime tonight.

1452
01:18:57,360 --> 01:19:00,680
Speaker 12: So in the case of the anesthesiologist, I feel like

1453
01:19:00,800 --> 01:19:03,360
Speaker 12: you wanted to her to take the picture at the

1454
01:19:03,479 --> 01:19:07,080
Speaker 12: edge of the cliffs, so that way, after he injected

1455
01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:12,479
Speaker 12: her with the syringes, she can accident the allegedly fall

1456
01:19:12,640 --> 01:19:14,679
Speaker 12: off the edge of the cliff, and then the photo

1457
01:19:14,760 --> 01:19:17,200
Speaker 12: would be proof that she was taking pictures at the

1458
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:19,639
Speaker 12: edge of the cliff. And that's why she foul because

1459
01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:22,320
Speaker 12: taking the syringes up with him. I feel like he

1460
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:23,920
Speaker 12: already had something in mind.

1461
01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:28,320
Speaker 3: Of course, I mean that's why he got mad, right,

1462
01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:31,200
Speaker 3: so logical. Did you guys see this video of her

1463
01:19:31,280 --> 01:19:32,240
Speaker 3: today that was released.

1464
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:35,120
Speaker 2: No, I'm sorry to cut you off, but there's new

1465
01:19:35,160 --> 01:19:37,799
Speaker 2: footage that was released today. I guess it's like bodycam

1466
01:19:37,880 --> 01:19:42,639
Speaker 2: footage from someone, but it basically shows the two helpers,

1467
01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:45,519
Speaker 2: the two women who are heroes by the way, and

1468
01:19:46,320 --> 01:19:49,720
Speaker 2: so it was actually so beautiful to see. Meanwhile, she

1469
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:52,760
Speaker 2: has been beaten with a rock. The girls are like

1470
01:19:53,040 --> 01:19:55,920
Speaker 2: putting ace bandages around her face. Her little eyes are

1471
01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:59,280
Speaker 2: all black and blue, and she's bleeding. Her little hands

1472
01:19:59,320 --> 01:20:02,640
Speaker 2: are all blood like she's been through it. And in

1473
01:20:02,760 --> 01:20:07,200
Speaker 2: the kindness of people, not just the two women that

1474
01:20:07,439 --> 01:20:10,000
Speaker 2: really stepped in, because that could have been very dangerous

1475
01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:13,280
Speaker 2: and then just really a crowd gathered and they were

1476
01:20:13,560 --> 01:20:15,960
Speaker 2: they were tending to her and making sure she was okay.

1477
01:20:16,120 --> 01:20:20,400
Speaker 2: And although seeing it is very tragic because she really

1478
01:20:20,520 --> 01:20:24,720
Speaker 2: was beaten up at me, it's really disgusting, But then

1479
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:27,120
Speaker 2: at the same time, it's like people really jumped into

1480
01:20:27,240 --> 01:20:30,600
Speaker 2: help and they didn't think of themselves first. And I

1481
01:20:30,640 --> 01:20:32,040
Speaker 2: don't know about you guys, but I have been in

1482
01:20:32,120 --> 01:20:35,160
Speaker 2: more situations, some that are really sticky, and even some

1483
01:20:35,400 --> 01:20:39,240
Speaker 2: like a car accident for example, where really like angels

1484
01:20:39,280 --> 01:20:41,960
Speaker 2: and humans came out of nowhere and really went above

1485
01:20:42,000 --> 01:20:44,840
Speaker 2: and beyond to make sure that you know, that I

1486
01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:47,320
Speaker 2: was okay and they didn't have to and put them

1487
01:20:47,600 --> 01:20:50,439
Speaker 2: their own selves in danger. Like I believe in that

1488
01:20:50,560 --> 01:20:54,320
Speaker 2: spirit so much. So you know, thank god, she's okay.

1489
01:20:54,880 --> 01:20:58,120
Speaker 2: She looks great now. Thank goodness, she seems to fully recover,

1490
01:20:58,520 --> 01:21:02,160
Speaker 2: and you know, she is away from this monster. It's okay,

1491
01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:03,800
Speaker 2: She's going to have a good life ahead.

1492
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:05,200
Speaker 9: I hope.

1493
01:21:05,240 --> 01:21:08,320
Speaker 3: So that was But yes, I do believe that's why

1494
01:21:08,400 --> 01:21:11,360
Speaker 3: he wanted the picture, and I do also believe that's

1495
01:21:11,400 --> 01:21:14,040
Speaker 3: why he got so mad. His plan was like crumbling

1496
01:21:14,120 --> 01:21:17,639
Speaker 3: right before his eyes and that's why he just kind

1497
01:21:17,680 --> 01:21:20,680
Speaker 3: of was like, Okay, that's what I'm doing now, you know.

1498
01:21:20,880 --> 01:21:26,000
Speaker 3: Like I think the rock was to uh disguise like

1499
01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:28,080
Speaker 3: mimic her falling down the cliff.

1500
01:21:28,840 --> 01:21:32,320
Speaker 9: Oh, he was going to still try to go through point.

1501
01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:34,599
Speaker 9: I didn't think about that. Yeah, but it's the second

1502
01:21:34,640 --> 01:21:36,840
Speaker 9: time because I even right before the show, I said

1503
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:39,559
Speaker 9: the body like, I thought he might have just lost

1504
01:21:39,600 --> 01:21:41,560
Speaker 9: it because she didn't want to take the photo and

1505
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:44,479
Speaker 9: that was the reaction. But it was all planned. Like

1506
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:45,719
Speaker 9: in other words, I didn't.

1507
01:21:45,640 --> 01:21:47,800
Speaker 2: I guess why would he have the syringes?

1508
01:21:48,920 --> 01:21:50,760
Speaker 3: Well, I think he was going to while they were

1509
01:21:50,800 --> 01:21:52,639
Speaker 3: taking the photo. I think he was going to stick

1510
01:21:52,680 --> 01:21:56,000
Speaker 3: her with the syringe right after the photo obviously, and

1511
01:21:56,120 --> 01:21:58,200
Speaker 3: then she would pass out and just fall down the hill.

1512
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:00,280
Speaker 3: When that didn't work out, I think he went to

1513
01:22:00,360 --> 01:22:02,840
Speaker 3: plan B, which was to grab the rock and he

1514
01:22:02,960 --> 01:22:06,120
Speaker 3: was just going to mimic injury she would have sustained.

1515
01:22:07,680 --> 01:22:08,960
Speaker 9: Yeah, it all makes sense now.

1516
01:22:09,360 --> 01:22:10,080
Speaker 2: Shame on him.

1517
01:22:10,160 --> 01:22:10,519
Speaker 9: I don't know.

1518
01:22:10,720 --> 01:22:12,920
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't know, baby, I don't know. I

1519
01:22:13,040 --> 01:22:16,360
Speaker 5: think he and again none of us live in his mind,

1520
01:22:16,960 --> 01:22:21,400
Speaker 5: obviously the accused. But yeah, given the words he said

1521
01:22:21,479 --> 01:22:24,120
Speaker 5: after his plan, which was obvious to you know, have

1522
01:22:24,320 --> 01:22:28,280
Speaker 5: to go off the cliff. Well to his son also,

1523
01:22:28,520 --> 01:22:32,080
Speaker 5: I tried to kill Auri and it didn't work. And

1524
01:22:32,240 --> 01:22:34,599
Speaker 5: now I think he just got unhinged. And the rock

1525
01:22:34,800 --> 01:22:39,160
Speaker 5: was that too, was you know, a weapon of convenience

1526
01:22:39,240 --> 01:22:41,960
Speaker 5: that was there. And I also will be very curious

1527
01:22:42,000 --> 01:22:47,120
Speaker 5: because these syringes they never were recovered, They would never recovered,

1528
01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:51,799
Speaker 5: and the defense maintains he didn't have them. I believed

1529
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:54,160
Speaker 5: the victim and she said, and I believe that to

1530
01:22:54,240 --> 01:22:58,080
Speaker 5: be true. However, legally I don't know. It's curious because

1531
01:22:58,200 --> 01:23:01,240
Speaker 5: the accused was found really shortly after.

1532
01:23:01,479 --> 01:23:02,720
Speaker 9: So where did these syringders go?

1533
01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:03,840
Speaker 4: Wow?

1534
01:23:03,920 --> 01:23:04,519
Speaker 6: Off the cliff?

1535
01:23:04,640 --> 01:23:08,040
Speaker 2: I don't know, yeah, wow, maybe yeah the ocean right.

1536
01:23:08,120 --> 01:23:11,880
Speaker 2: Also something to note to this is totally this I'm

1537
01:23:12,080 --> 01:23:15,160
Speaker 2: jumping off a we're switching gears. I was gonna say

1538
01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:19,840
Speaker 2: jumping off cliff here appropriate. I was like, I didn't

1539
01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:24,400
Speaker 2: no association. I was not making that connection, just switching gears.

1540
01:23:25,400 --> 01:23:28,439
Speaker 2: I think it's worth noting because I personally have been

1541
01:23:28,960 --> 01:23:33,040
Speaker 2: really disgusted by Diddy and all of his craziness and

1542
01:23:33,640 --> 01:23:37,560
Speaker 2: sometimes jay Z gets, you know, swept into that conversation

1543
01:23:37,800 --> 01:23:41,639
Speaker 2: and he's been the assault the accuser that was accusing

1544
01:23:41,720 --> 01:23:45,040
Speaker 2: him of sexual assault. They dismissed the case. So just

1545
01:23:45,120 --> 01:23:47,439
Speaker 2: making a note of that that that really went away,

1546
01:23:48,240 --> 01:23:51,360
Speaker 2: and he sat down for an interview and basically said

1547
01:23:51,400 --> 01:23:55,840
Speaker 2: that the allegations were, you know, horrific and really almost

1548
01:23:55,920 --> 01:23:59,720
Speaker 2: destroyed his life and we're devastating to his family and

1549
01:24:00,280 --> 01:24:03,400
Speaker 2: for him to explain to his daughter and all the things.

1550
01:24:03,680 --> 01:24:05,880
Speaker 2: So I don't know, I just want to say that

1551
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:14,160
Speaker 2: because shame on Diddy, and you know, hopefully all the

1552
01:24:14,240 --> 01:24:17,240
Speaker 2: fallout exactly. Let's do another talk back.

1553
01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:23,200
Speaker 3: You asked about that one case that we always think about.

1554
01:24:23,360 --> 01:24:26,080
Speaker 2: For me, it is the Jack and Lily Sullivan case.

1555
01:24:26,520 --> 01:24:27,920
Speaker 2: Where did those kids go?

1556
01:24:28,960 --> 01:24:29,559
Speaker 6: Still active?

1557
01:24:30,760 --> 01:24:31,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's still active.

1558
01:24:32,120 --> 01:24:34,280
Speaker 3: I remember this because I helped while I didn't help,

1559
01:24:35,160 --> 01:24:38,880
Speaker 3: But I remember when they went missing. And this happened

1560
01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:43,479
Speaker 3: in Nova Scotia and it's in Canada, and it's in

1561
01:24:43,560 --> 01:24:47,360
Speaker 3: a really remote kind of like rural era of Nova Scotia.

1562
01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:51,240
Speaker 3: And their two little two little kids, and the mom

1563
01:24:51,280 --> 01:24:53,720
Speaker 3: and dad or the mom was sleeping with her her

1564
01:24:54,160 --> 01:25:02,000
Speaker 3: boyfriend and it's like their stepdad and and they woke

1565
01:25:02,120 --> 01:25:06,320
Speaker 3: up and the kids were gone, Okay, and they live

1566
01:25:06,680 --> 01:25:09,920
Speaker 3: in like kind of like a dilapidated kind of house.

1567
01:25:10,040 --> 01:25:16,680
Speaker 3: It's very unkept outside there's you know, objects everywhere all

1568
01:25:16,720 --> 01:25:19,800
Speaker 3: over the place, but surrounding the house it's nothing but

1569
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:20,919
Speaker 3: like woods.

1570
01:25:21,280 --> 01:25:27,080
Speaker 2: It's really remote, extremely remote, and is beautiful but gorgeous.

1571
01:25:27,160 --> 01:25:30,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, gorgeous. And yeah they haven't. I mean this happened

1572
01:25:31,040 --> 01:25:35,360
Speaker 3: in May of twenty twenty five. Yeah, Lily was six

1573
01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:42,040
Speaker 3: and Jack was four, and their mom, she's married to

1574
01:25:42,080 --> 01:25:44,720
Speaker 3: a guy named Daniel, and they claim that they were

1575
01:25:44,760 --> 01:25:46,639
Speaker 3: in their bedroom with their they have a one year

1576
01:25:46,640 --> 01:25:51,320
Speaker 3: old daughter together while the kids just wandered off, and

1577
01:25:51,760 --> 01:25:55,960
Speaker 3: the grandma, she lives kind of nearby. She said that

1578
01:25:56,040 --> 01:25:58,960
Speaker 3: she heard the kids playing on the swings around nine

1579
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:01,880
Speaker 3: am and then she fell asleep again. And this leaves

1580
01:26:01,920 --> 01:26:04,679
Speaker 3: like this really narrow window of time that they would

1581
01:26:04,680 --> 01:26:05,799
Speaker 3: have been able to wander off.

1582
01:26:07,280 --> 01:26:09,320
Speaker 6: And again there's nothing.

1583
01:26:09,600 --> 01:26:12,080
Speaker 9: But what did they ever suspect? The parents?

1584
01:26:12,400 --> 01:26:17,959
Speaker 6: Oh very well, yeah, yeah, especially the boyfriend.

1585
01:26:18,080 --> 01:26:20,439
Speaker 2: And well the other weird thing, right, it's the boyfriend,

1586
01:26:20,520 --> 01:26:21,519
Speaker 2: not right.

1587
01:26:21,680 --> 01:26:24,800
Speaker 3: The other weird thing too, was like the mom like

1588
01:26:25,080 --> 01:26:27,120
Speaker 3: right when all this happened, they like broke up like

1589
01:26:27,439 --> 01:26:32,920
Speaker 3: that day and she I think she's First Nations, which

1590
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:37,720
Speaker 3: in Canada, if you're not aware, is Native Okay, Indigenous

1591
01:26:37,800 --> 01:26:41,120
Speaker 3: to Canada, and I think she's First Nations And she

1592
01:26:41,520 --> 01:26:45,519
Speaker 3: left the familial home and went to her tribe and

1593
01:26:45,640 --> 01:26:48,200
Speaker 3: stayed there because they like broke up that like it

1594
01:26:48,280 --> 01:26:51,320
Speaker 3: was either that day or like two or three days later.

1595
01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:54,320
Speaker 6: But it was like really sauce to everybody was this case.

1596
01:26:54,400 --> 01:26:56,280
Speaker 6: Is still very active on social media.

1597
01:26:57,600 --> 01:26:59,759
Speaker 2: Working on this case for a while. She's a career

1598
01:27:00,240 --> 01:27:03,760
Speaker 2: and we should have her on that. She would love

1599
01:27:03,840 --> 01:27:06,200
Speaker 2: to come on and we can pick her brain and

1600
01:27:06,360 --> 01:27:11,760
Speaker 2: we can scratch your you know, Roman Empire case, because yeah,

1601
01:27:11,880 --> 01:27:15,200
Speaker 2: it is pretty startling, and you know, also the tripard

1602
01:27:15,360 --> 01:27:19,200
Speaker 2: is interesting because it's jurisdiction and you know, was the

1603
01:27:19,280 --> 01:27:22,000
Speaker 2: boyfriend part of the problem and maybe mom was. I'm

1604
01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:24,160
Speaker 2: not saying this is what happened. These are just sort

1605
01:27:24,200 --> 01:27:27,360
Speaker 2: of some of the allegations in the chatter around this case.

1606
01:27:27,400 --> 01:27:31,880
Speaker 2: And yeah, it's really been silenced or they're just missing,

1607
01:27:32,360 --> 01:27:32,840
Speaker 2: Well it's not.

1608
01:27:33,120 --> 01:27:36,400
Speaker 5: And also the investigation was so extensive. I mean they

1609
01:27:36,520 --> 01:27:39,559
Speaker 5: interviewed more than fifty people, people had to polygraph tests,

1610
01:27:40,120 --> 01:27:44,479
Speaker 5: hundreds of hours of video and please, you know, can't

1611
01:27:44,640 --> 01:27:47,040
Speaker 5: establish abduction or criminal activity.

1612
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:47,800
Speaker 2: It's right.

1613
01:27:47,920 --> 01:27:50,400
Speaker 3: I think that it's really hard to because this is

1614
01:27:50,479 --> 01:27:53,960
Speaker 3: really popular on American social media, and I think that

1615
01:27:54,080 --> 01:27:59,080
Speaker 3: it's really startling to Americans the privacy that Canadians are

1616
01:27:59,200 --> 01:28:02,680
Speaker 3: benefit from, and you know, things that we are used

1617
01:28:02,680 --> 01:28:05,720
Speaker 3: to getting, you know, from the police here, they're very

1618
01:28:05,800 --> 01:28:07,960
Speaker 3: tight lift up in Canada, and trust me from first

1619
01:28:08,000 --> 01:28:12,720
Speaker 3: and experience in dealing with Canada, they're very, very very

1620
01:28:12,840 --> 01:28:15,960
Speaker 3: tight lipped with reason, I mean, with good reason in

1621
01:28:16,040 --> 01:28:18,519
Speaker 3: most cases. So I think too that's one of the

1622
01:28:18,600 --> 01:28:22,000
Speaker 3: things that's kept us really active on social media is

1623
01:28:22,080 --> 01:28:26,439
Speaker 3: that there's just like little tidbits of information enough to run.

1624
01:28:26,320 --> 01:28:30,080
Speaker 2: With, right, wow, so I forget so And in case

1625
01:28:30,280 --> 01:28:34,920
Speaker 2: anyone's not familiar with this body who's in the Netflix documentary,

1626
01:28:35,200 --> 01:28:38,040
Speaker 2: don't f with Cats and really you.

1627
01:28:38,080 --> 01:28:38,959
Speaker 6: Know, it's Canadian.

1628
01:28:39,040 --> 01:28:44,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's Canadian crime, right, And it's just it's just

1629
01:28:44,760 --> 01:28:49,439
Speaker 3: a different it's just a different rule book. It's not

1630
01:28:49,640 --> 01:28:52,400
Speaker 3: it's really not the same. There's no foya, you know

1631
01:28:52,439 --> 01:28:54,599
Speaker 3: what I mean, Like, you don't get that kind of stuff.

1632
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:58,000
Speaker 3: So it's very very different. So I think that's one

1633
01:28:58,000 --> 01:29:01,400
Speaker 3: of the things that's maybe why so many people are

1634
01:29:01,400 --> 01:29:03,240
Speaker 3: still following this case and you know, in the case

1635
01:29:03,280 --> 01:29:04,719
Speaker 3: of our talk back, it's a Roman empire.

1636
01:29:05,160 --> 01:29:07,479
Speaker 9: Well, definitely, I would love to bring the guests on

1637
01:29:07,600 --> 01:29:08,479
Speaker 9: that you mentioned and.

1638
01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:09,120
Speaker 6: I would too.

1639
01:29:09,160 --> 01:29:13,759
Speaker 2: I would love that. Yeah, so yeah, I'm really kids.

1640
01:29:15,040 --> 01:29:16,439
Speaker 9: Let's go to one more talk back.

1641
01:29:17,240 --> 01:29:20,280
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Oh my god, I received my witties.

1642
01:29:20,400 --> 01:29:23,720
Speaker 3: We took one to light on it Axed Alexlie, thank

1643
01:29:23,760 --> 01:29:24,400
Speaker 3: you so much.

1644
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:26,080
Speaker 2: It's from Australia.

1645
01:29:26,520 --> 01:29:30,799
Speaker 8: Why my hot Angels and tayha It is so great

1646
01:29:31,040 --> 01:29:32,200
Speaker 8: just recording.

1647
01:29:31,840 --> 01:29:33,240
Speaker 2: In Times Square at the moment.

1648
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:34,719
Speaker 7: Thank you again.

1649
01:29:35,560 --> 01:29:39,599
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I want to eat her up. First

1650
01:29:39,640 --> 01:29:42,120
Speaker 2: of all, the picture is adorable. The follows that we're

1651
01:29:42,160 --> 01:29:46,479
Speaker 2: getting from you guys we posted on social media. Yeah,

1652
01:29:46,560 --> 01:29:48,400
Speaker 2: so we'll do that. Well, we're going to do a

1653
01:29:48,439 --> 01:29:50,519
Speaker 2: whole compilation of all of the photos. Just getting to

1654
01:29:50,600 --> 01:29:54,759
Speaker 2: see you guys' faces. It's so satisfying and it's always

1655
01:29:54,800 --> 01:29:57,280
Speaker 2: like just as I pictured, and it's so fun. But

1656
01:29:57,640 --> 01:30:00,360
Speaker 2: don't forget, Hailey was a very specific case because she

1657
01:30:00,600 --> 01:30:05,799
Speaker 2: was in Canada. In frankly, we can't really ship to Australia. Australia, Australia,

1658
01:30:05,880 --> 01:30:09,480
Speaker 2: forgive me. We were just talking exactly and we were like, Australia,

1659
01:30:09,520 --> 01:30:11,400
Speaker 2: that's like I don't know. This is like I don't know,

1660
01:30:11,479 --> 01:30:16,400
Speaker 2: that's it. We're he was coming to the United States

1661
01:30:16,520 --> 01:30:18,599
Speaker 2: and she was going to New York City. And then

1662
01:30:18,600 --> 01:30:20,640
Speaker 2: we're like, whoa, Well, Whitney will get the sweatshirt to

1663
01:30:20,720 --> 01:30:22,960
Speaker 2: Ava and Eva will get the sweatshirt to somebody else,

1664
01:30:23,000 --> 01:30:25,479
Speaker 2: and now we'll get delivered to the hotel. And it

1665
01:30:25,680 --> 01:30:27,400
Speaker 2: was like a high stakes for us. It was a

1666
01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:31,280
Speaker 2: pretty high stakes operation and it was awesome. We're so

1667
01:30:31,400 --> 01:30:33,479
Speaker 2: happy to hear her.

1668
01:30:33,800 --> 01:30:36,599
Speaker 9: She wore it, and she's so she's so cute by

1669
01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:39,439
Speaker 9: the way, Heley, I love your hair. She's got color

1670
01:30:39,880 --> 01:30:42,880
Speaker 9: streaks in her hair. She's adorable. So I love it.

1671
01:30:42,960 --> 01:30:45,479
Speaker 3: I'm so glad we're having so much fun in New York.

1672
01:30:46,720 --> 01:30:47,439
Speaker 2: Let New York go.

1673
01:30:48,040 --> 01:30:49,240
Speaker 9: I still can't believe you haven't been.

1674
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:50,800
Speaker 6: I've never been to New York.

1675
01:30:50,960 --> 01:30:56,360
Speaker 3: Yeah never, I've never been to New York or Hawaii.

1676
01:30:56,560 --> 01:30:57,360
Speaker 6: Like, what's wrong with me?

1677
01:30:57,840 --> 01:31:00,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, let's do New York first. That's the must

1678
01:31:00,760 --> 01:31:04,200
Speaker 2: to do New York. I mean, like, all would be

1679
01:31:04,240 --> 01:31:06,680
Speaker 2: the greatest tour guides in New York.

1680
01:31:07,200 --> 01:31:09,200
Speaker 3: I've always wanted to go to New York at Christmas,

1681
01:31:09,320 --> 01:31:11,400
Speaker 3: like and you know, see the tree magic.

1682
01:31:11,840 --> 01:31:13,479
Speaker 6: I've always I love Christmas.

1683
01:31:14,080 --> 01:31:17,760
Speaker 2: This spring is actually quite great, isn't the fall? The fall?

1684
01:31:18,000 --> 01:31:20,080
Speaker 6: I don't like the humidity. I would listen, I like

1685
01:31:20,240 --> 01:31:21,920
Speaker 6: I like the fall. Listen. I don't like humidity. I

1686
01:31:21,920 --> 01:31:22,839
Speaker 6: don't want to community.

1687
01:31:23,240 --> 01:31:25,320
Speaker 9: Yeah, the summer is that's not great, you know.

1688
01:31:25,920 --> 01:31:29,240
Speaker 5: But if you love Christmas, I mean that is New

1689
01:31:29,320 --> 01:31:32,240
Speaker 5: York is Christmas. You go to Rocket Fellers Center.

1690
01:31:33,640 --> 01:31:35,720
Speaker 9: Everyone in the streets, all of it.

1691
01:31:36,000 --> 01:31:38,120
Speaker 2: The tree people are ice skating.

1692
01:31:38,760 --> 01:31:40,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's what I want to do here.

1693
01:31:40,600 --> 01:31:41,800
Speaker 9: It's a good time of year to go.

1694
01:31:42,000 --> 01:31:44,120
Speaker 6: So I want to go Christmas shopping at Macy's.

1695
01:31:45,080 --> 01:31:45,479
Speaker 9: Let's do that.

1696
01:31:45,600 --> 01:31:46,320
Speaker 2: I really do.

1697
01:31:46,560 --> 01:31:47,680
Speaker 6: Yeah, I really want to do that.

1698
01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:50,439
Speaker 9: But if you will.

1699
01:31:51,800 --> 01:31:56,760
Speaker 2: Probably no haunted hotels in New York either. We're gonna

1700
01:31:56,760 --> 01:31:59,519
Speaker 2: stay someplace nice and and really like right in the

1701
01:31:59,600 --> 01:32:01,599
Speaker 2: heart of time. I'm square, and we will go see

1702
01:32:01,600 --> 01:32:06,000
Speaker 2: a show. Yeah that's so great, you know. Gabe said

1703
01:32:06,000 --> 01:32:07,880
Speaker 2: the same thing. So we have to do this. We

1704
01:32:07,960 --> 01:32:09,720
Speaker 2: have to te adventure.

1705
01:32:09,960 --> 01:32:10,720
Speaker 9: No you haven't been.

1706
01:32:11,160 --> 01:32:13,880
Speaker 2: Oh yes, And I was like, oh my goodness, I'm

1707
01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:17,040
Speaker 2: so excited to know someone. And I'm like that I'm

1708
01:32:17,080 --> 01:32:20,160
Speaker 2: inserting myself into your trip, but I would like to

1709
01:32:20,240 --> 01:32:25,000
Speaker 2: participate in this hosted trip because New York City is

1710
01:32:25,040 --> 01:32:27,519
Speaker 2: the best. AVA will be greeting us with open arms

1711
01:32:27,600 --> 01:32:31,519
Speaker 2: and allegedly, allegedly allegedly sweatshirts. A little Felicity. Yes, our

1712
01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:34,800
Speaker 2: little Felicity Tyler Moore.

1713
01:32:36,360 --> 01:32:37,800
Speaker 6: He really is Mary Tyler Moore.

1714
01:32:37,960 --> 01:32:40,240
Speaker 3: I really see her just like with her little like

1715
01:32:40,479 --> 01:32:43,720
Speaker 3: macho latte, like in Brooklyn, just like walking down the

1716
01:32:43,760 --> 01:32:45,000
Speaker 3: street with her little.

1717
01:32:44,880 --> 01:32:47,760
Speaker 9: You know, that's really what she does day. As we

1718
01:32:47,840 --> 01:32:49,960
Speaker 9: talk every morning and she's like, Okay, I'm doing my

1719
01:32:50,040 --> 01:32:52,599
Speaker 9: research from the new coffee shop today. She picks different

1720
01:32:52,640 --> 01:32:57,559
Speaker 9: areas in Brooklyn. So I'm like that sounds so cool.

1721
01:32:57,800 --> 01:33:00,680
Speaker 9: So I've missed her so much. She's been gone for

1722
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:03,519
Speaker 9: a couple of days, and my life has not been

1723
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:05,120
Speaker 9: the same because I don't have anyone to talk to

1724
01:33:05,280 --> 01:33:06,559
Speaker 9: and vet you all day.

1725
01:33:06,479 --> 01:33:09,200
Speaker 6: About was trying to text me, but I'm like, I'm

1726
01:33:09,240 --> 01:33:10,000
Speaker 6: busy leaving alone.

1727
01:33:10,080 --> 01:33:12,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, nobody text me back today.

1728
01:33:12,640 --> 01:33:14,800
Speaker 2: I was a cooky today with the text, but I

1729
01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:18,160
Speaker 2: loved it, And yeah, welcome back, Eva, and we're glad

1730
01:33:18,200 --> 01:33:19,440
Speaker 2: you got your sweatshirt.

1731
01:33:19,479 --> 01:33:22,599
Speaker 9: Exactly, So can you believe we're almost at the end,

1732
01:33:22,760 --> 01:33:24,759
Speaker 9: Like this show kind of flew by today.

1733
01:33:25,280 --> 01:33:27,320
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Tah, how are we going to top

1734
01:33:27,360 --> 01:33:29,519
Speaker 2: this one? With Jared? What happens tomorrow? We have well,

1735
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:33,560
Speaker 2: tomorrow we're having a little astrology of some killer astrology,

1736
01:33:34,000 --> 01:33:38,000
Speaker 2: the Long Island serial killer for example, So we're going

1737
01:33:38,040 --> 01:33:39,360
Speaker 2: to do a little bit of that. But also what

1738
01:33:39,479 --> 01:33:40,920
Speaker 2: other stories are you going to be following?

1739
01:33:41,080 --> 01:33:44,000
Speaker 9: Well, not only is astrologer Kim Allen coming to talk

1740
01:33:44,040 --> 01:33:46,559
Speaker 9: about what you're talking about, but the latest one Bury

1741
01:33:46,640 --> 01:33:50,040
Speaker 9: more Few, the husband accused of killing is White. There's

1742
01:33:50,080 --> 01:33:51,840
Speaker 9: some updates with that, so we got to dig into that.

1743
01:33:52,120 --> 01:33:55,800
Speaker 9: So get your zodiac and chocolas all together, because we

1744
01:33:55,840 --> 01:33:59,840
Speaker 9: got we can get ours done. Send your dates and

1745
01:34:00,040 --> 01:34:00,840
Speaker 9: we'll find out.

1746
01:34:02,680 --> 01:34:05,320
Speaker 2: The show. Okay, we love you, Stay safe out there. Goody,

1747
01:34:05,880 --> 01:34:06,240
Speaker 2: good night,