1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,800 Speaker 1: You never got a call from the President of United 2 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: States saying, mister Attorney General, I want you to do X, 3 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Y and Z. That never happened. 4 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 2: That never happened. Every generation of Americans is ultimately called 5 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 2: upon to defend amoks. It really challenges who we say 6 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 2: we are as the United States of Americas. 7 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: This is Gavin Newsom than this is Eric Holder, Eric 8 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: Calder in his bunker somewhere an undisclosed. 9 00:00:25,880 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 2: Location, undisclosed location exactly. 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: But yeah, I joke about that. But I mean, mister 11 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: Attorney General, sir, I'm American citizen, civic leader. How you 12 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:40,639 Speaker 1: feeling about the world we're living in. I mean, we're 13 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: on the eve of another government shut down, which is 14 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: becoming more and more common, but this one potentially could 15 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,600 Speaker 1: be very, very different and consequential compared to the prior ones. 16 00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: You're seeing all the weaponization of grievance across the spectrum, 17 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: DJ and elsewhere. We'll get to Jerry Mandarin and the 18 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: incredible work you've been doing since twenty seventeen. But honestly, 19 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: give me a temperature check. How are you feeling about 20 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,320 Speaker 1: things and where we are at this moment in this country. 21 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: I gotta tell you, I'm I'm extremely worried. And if 22 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 2: you would ask me that same question, you know, a 23 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: year or so ago, even with the possibility of a 24 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 2: Trump election, I would not have thought that we'd be 25 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 2: in the place that we are now. I mean, when 26 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 2: you look at attacks on the First Amendment, you know, 27 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:27,520 Speaker 2: Jimmy Kimmel, you look at the the attacks on science, 28 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:32,960 Speaker 2: the attacks on universities, you know, attacks on healthcare. I mean, 29 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,960 Speaker 2: there are a whole range of things that worry me 30 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: a great deal. The politicization of the Justice Department, as 31 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 2: evidenced by you know, the Jim Comy and a whole 32 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 2: bunch of boys, but I mean the Jim Comy indictment. 33 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 2: I think our sense of who we are as a 34 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 2: nation is being challenged, and I think people need to 35 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 2: understand that. And I think it's been great that your 36 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 2: voice has been a consistent one. And I'm not just 37 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 2: saying this. You know, you are well before Trump selection, 38 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 2: You've been out there and kind of ringing the bell, 39 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 2: and I think people are finally, finally, you know, starting 40 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 2: to starting to hear it. 41 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: And I appreciate that and I and I also appreciate 42 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: your sentiment because I think so many people listening, regardless 43 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: of their political stripes, I think must be feeling a 44 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: similar sentiment about the world we're living in. What I 45 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: mean you, I imagine of all people you because you've 46 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: seen firsthand, you've been on the inside, You've worked so 47 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:33,919 Speaker 1: closely with presidents, and you've you've maintained a deep engagement 48 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: in this country. You must anticipated Trump two point zero 49 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: in many respects to you know, represent something, But did 50 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: you expect it to represent what it has? 51 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: Meaning? 52 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: Is this fire and fury? Is this flooding the zone? 53 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: Is this russ void? Is this deeper, broader, more impactful 54 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,359 Speaker 1: than you had anticipated even eight nine months ago? 55 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think it is, you know I I think 56 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 2: it's both deeper and broader, and it has come at 57 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 2: a more rapid pace than I think I might have expected. 58 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 2: You know, just the thing that I guess I'm most 59 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:12,799 Speaker 2: familiar with you look at the Justice Department. I mean 60 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 2: the notion that a president, not an attorney general or 61 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: career people at the Justice Department make a determination as 62 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 2: to who should be indicted. And that's what the Jim 63 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: Comby indictment is all about. I mean, you know, you 64 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 2: had a Trump appointee as the US attorney who decided 65 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: that there was not a case there, so they fired him. 66 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 2: Bring in an insurance lawyer who has never tried a 67 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: criminal case, and she does the president's bidding and brings 68 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 2: a case that barely got through a grand jury. You 69 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: know that notion that a president's making these kinds of determinations, 70 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 2: that an Attorney general sees the Justice Department not as 71 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: the lawyers for the people, but as lawyers for the president. 72 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 2: These are all the kinds of things that I would 73 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 2: not have expected and worried me. You know, a great deal. 74 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 2: This really challenges, it really challenges who we say we 75 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 2: are as the United States of America. 76 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: Eric, I'm curious. You know, a lot of people on 77 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:12,280 Speaker 1: the other side would would hear that and say, come on, 78 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: you know, this is the way it's always been. Now 79 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: it's perhaps a little bit more in the open. Fair's fair, 80 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 1: it's tit for tat. We saw that weaponization coming from 81 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: the last administration. They would go back even to prior administrations. 82 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: But maybe you could, without breaking confidence, sort of pull 83 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 1: us in. I mean, you never got a call from 84 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 1: the President of the United States saying, mister Attorney General, 85 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: I want you to do X, Y and Z. That 86 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 1: never happened. 87 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 2: That never happened. We had what's called a contact policy 88 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 2: that describes the people in the White House who can 89 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:47,599 Speaker 2: talk to which people in the Justice Department, and was 90 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 2: really like two on either side. You know. I had 91 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 2: interactions with President Obama. He never ever ever raised with 92 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 2: me how he thought the Justice Department should conduct itself 93 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 2: in a particular mana. Now on national security matters, that's 94 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: a different deal there. I was part of the National 95 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,159 Speaker 2: Security team, and I was just one of many people 96 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 2: sitting in the situation room trying to figure out, you know, 97 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: what is it we could do with regard to drone strikes. 98 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 2: But when it came to you know, the criminal law, 99 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 2: the enforcement of the anti trust laws, filing civil suits, 100 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 2: civil rights, you know, protections, I never ever heard from 101 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 2: the President on that. Now, let me tell you just 102 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 2: a really quick story. I made the determination not to 103 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:35,720 Speaker 2: defend the defensive marriage at doma internal Justice Department determination. 104 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:38,279 Speaker 2: I say, we're not going to do it. I was 105 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 2: at a Super Bowl party at the White House. We 106 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 2: were going to announce this to the world, I guess 107 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 2: the following Tuesday, Wednesday, and I told President Obama. Look, 108 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: I made the determination we're not going to defend DOMA, 109 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 2: and I wanted him to know so that he wouldn't 110 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 2: read about it in the newspaper. And he said to me, 111 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: this is at the White House. He said, boy, I'm 112 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,799 Speaker 2: glad you've made that decision because that's where I wanted 113 00:05:57,839 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 2: to go. But I didn't think it was appropriate for 114 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: me to share with you what you should do. And 115 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 2: that's the truth. And so that gives you a sense 116 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 2: of how Barack Obama and Eric Holder thought the Justice 117 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 2: Department should interact with the White House fundamentally different than 118 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 2: the way Pam Bondy and Donald Trump think there's two 119 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 2: institutions should be interacting. 120 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: And when it comes to line staff, when it comes 121 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: to this career staff that you're frustrated with your governing, 122 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: your managing, they're not the political staff that the folks 123 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 1: that are sort of the clay layer that have been 124 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: there and they'll be there well beyond your tenure in 125 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: your respective roles. I mean, how did you manage those disagreements? 126 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, the President, as you noted, fired someone 127 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: he disagreed with and then installed his own person quite literally, 128 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: his personal attorney to do his bidding. But what was 129 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: sort of what's the tradition in terms of how you 130 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: manage those disagreements in terms of moving or operating in 131 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 1: a way that at least is directionally along the lines 132 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: that you wanted to achieve or proceed. I believe was 133 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:57,800 Speaker 1: the right. 134 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, I was the head of 135 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: the Justice Department, and so I had to make ultimate calls. 136 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 2: You know. I started my career as a line lawyer, 137 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,600 Speaker 2: and I think called the Public Integrity Section, it looks 138 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 2: at official corruption cases that the Trump administration has just decimated. 139 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 2: It used to be about thirty lawyers there. I think 140 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 2: they're about four there now. They don't care about official corruption. 141 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 2: And we used to say, when I was a line 142 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 2: lawyer for twelve years, we used to call the political 143 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 2: appointees tourists and said, you know, they come and go, 144 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 2: but we're the people who stay. And so when I 145 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 2: became came back to the Justice Department as Attorney General, 146 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: I always wanted to interact with the career folks, but 147 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: everybody understood that if there was was a disagreement, I 148 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 2: as the Attorney General, had the final say. And within 149 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: the Justice Department, you know, that's fine. None of the 150 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: career people ever thought that the president had the final 151 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: say on what the Justice Department was going to do 152 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 2: post Watergate. The independence of the Justice Department is something 153 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 2: that every administration, I think valued, and that you know, 154 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 2: to the consternation sometimes of the people in the White House, 155 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 2: when I decided that we were going to look back 156 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 2: at how the Bush administration had conducted itself with regard 157 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: to these enhanced interrogation techniques, A lot of people I 158 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 2: knew in the White House didn't want me to do that, 159 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: and yet I had the independence the ability to do it. 160 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: When you when you reflect on what happened to Comy, 161 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: reflect perhaps and under different circumstances, what happened to Bolton 162 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: in relationship to the quote unquote raid on his home. 163 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: I mean, what's most alarming about those instances? I mean, 164 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: what was your sort of internal conversation not only with 165 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: yourself but with others around you as it relates to 166 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: those actions by this administration. 167 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, the Komy case is one that we 168 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 2: can pretty much understand based on the reporting that the 169 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 2: media has done, and there's no case there. I mean, 170 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 2: here's the deal. Put a pin in this Jim Comy 171 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 2: is not going to be convicted. I mean, the case 172 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 2: may not get to trial, the case may get dismissed 173 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 2: by the judge after the government presents his case. If 174 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: it gets to a juror, there's no way he's going 175 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: to get convicted. So you know, put a pin in 176 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: that replay this, you know at some point. And so 177 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 2: there's that component. And then you have the President in 178 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,920 Speaker 2: that truth social post where he says kind of dear 179 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 2: Pam and basically is telling her to go after you know, 180 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 2: Jim Comey, Adam Schiff, Letitia James, and you know all 181 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 2: of these things. I mean, no case, direction by the 182 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,479 Speaker 2: president to bring the case nevertheless, and then the obeisance 183 00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 2: of the people in the Justice Department to do that 184 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 2: which the president wanted to do. Again, Republican as well 185 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:44,640 Speaker 2: as democratic administrations, this just doesn't happen. I mean, this 186 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 2: is just not normal, folks. We got to understand that 187 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 2: this goes is inconsistent with the way in which DOJ's 188 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 2: justice departments and attorneys general have you know, conducted themselves. 189 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: With regard to line employees. I mean, there's two trains 190 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: of people saying people should stand up on principle, resign 191 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 1: people should sort of stick it out, because if their 192 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: voice and their eyes are not there, my gosh, the 193 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: folks that come behind them could really lock in and 194 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: institutionalize this aberrant behavior, this normalization of delancy. What where 195 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: are you on that in terms of the conversations I'm 196 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: sure you've had with some of those career staff people 197 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 1: that you've developed relationships with over time. 198 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a really good question. And one of the 199 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 2: things my position. You know, everybody's got to make their 200 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 2: own determination. When I've been asked that by people, I say, 201 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 2: stay around, stick around, because the reality is the people 202 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 2: who they'll pick to succeed you will not be nearly 203 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 2: as idealistic, will not adhere to the traditions of the 204 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 2: Justice Department. And so I'd say, look, you stick around, 205 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: and if they fire you, you know, there's not much 206 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 2: I suppose that you can do. You'll have you know, 207 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,439 Speaker 2: employment appellet rights, and you go to court to try 208 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,320 Speaker 2: to get your job back, and that effort is even 209 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 2: enhanced by having them fire you as opposed to resign. 210 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 2: And so I think you make them push you out 211 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 2: as opposed to you deciding that you want to resign. 212 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: I appreciate that perspective. Could not agree more. I think that. 213 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: I mean, I appreciate the principal stand of saying, I 214 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,719 Speaker 1: can't be part of an administration that's that's party to 215 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: this kind of injustice, but at the same time, the 216 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,319 Speaker 1: consequences of walking away. Let me ask you, as it 217 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: relates to walking away, it seems that we have a 218 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: completely supine Congress, that there's no system of checks and balances, 219 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 1: that the Majority Speaker Johnson has completely abdicated any oversight 220 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: as it relates to that, and it relates to this 221 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: moment as we're talking, we're just quite literally hours away 222 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:45,079 Speaker 1: from a midnight deadline on that government shutdown. I mean, 223 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: vis a vis that, having experienced a little of that, 224 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: understanding what it means, what it doesn't mean a government 225 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: shut down. Where are you in terms of where are 226 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: the Democratic Party should be? Where the leadership of the 227 00:11:56,520 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: Democratic Party should position themselves at this moment, Is Jeffries 228 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: Schumer right to now sort of stand firm on protecting 229 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 1: Bombacare and its subsidies or else? Or should we right 230 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: now be outside knocking on the Oval Office saying, mister President, 231 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: we still want to negotiate. 232 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 2: Now, I mean, I think, yeah, we still want to negotiate, 233 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 2: but these are this is a principal stand that we're taking. 234 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 2: We want to make sure that Medicaid cuts that we're 235 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 2: in that big stupid bill are not put into effect, 236 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 2: that the Obamacare subsidies you know, will continue, and so 237 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 2: healthcare premiums will not rise. No, we've got to stand 238 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 2: firm and say, this is who we are, this is 239 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 2: who we are as Democrats. We stand with the people, 240 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: with the interests of the people, not with the special interests. 241 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: And we're not going to allow you to ram through 242 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: things that are going to harm the American people, you know, 243 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 2: make health care out of put health care out of 244 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 2: reach of substantial numbers of people, to folks who qualify 245 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: for Medicaid, to make it more difficult for them to 246 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 2: get healthcare. And this this is a basic kind of 247 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: governmental governmental thing. And I think the position that they 248 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 2: have taken is both principled, it's consistent again with who 249 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 2: we say we are as Democrats. And they got a 250 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: whole firm. They just got a whole firm. 251 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,440 Speaker 1: Where do you play it out? Where do you I mean, 252 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: you know, this thing the last government shut down under 253 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: Trump was on the longest that we've experienced the consequences, 254 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: they felt more intense that we colored the men in 255 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: the short run, then they sort of unpacked from GDP 256 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: perspective and getting people back their paychecks, et cetera. Where 257 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: do you what's your gut in terms of how this 258 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: plays out? 259 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 2: I think my gut is that if this goes longer 260 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 2: than a week, it's going to be long. I get 261 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 2: the feeling that, you know, this, this could end up being, 262 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: you know, really substantially, really substantial shutdown. And my hope 263 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 2: is that you know, russ Vote and you know his 264 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 2: people don't use this as an excuse of fire even 265 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 2: more federal employees. That adds another dimension to this, you know, 266 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 2: to use what is a policy difference to deny people 267 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 2: their their right to work and further harm further harm 268 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 2: the government. But my sense is that you know, in 269 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 2: Trump too, where he's kind of you know, Donald Trump 270 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 2: unbound and surrounded by the zealots who make up certainly 271 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: the White House staff and people in the cabinet, that 272 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 2: this is something that could go I think for you know, 273 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 2: an extended period of time. But you know, I understand 274 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 2: that I still think that Democrats have got to hold 275 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 2: firm to the positions that we have taken. This is uh, 276 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 2: you know, we're standing up and we're pushing back, and 277 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 2: I think that's what the American people, you know, want 278 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 2: to see. 279 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: I appreciate that. What I mean, what's your over under? 280 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: I mean, people, if you game this thing out and 281 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 1: we've seen it, it's I appreciate the reference the MV 282 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 1: director rus Bot in terms of what he's done, and 283 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: for those that are not familiar, that's the architect of 284 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: Project twenty twenty five. He was the only B director 285 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: people forget in the first Trump administration, but he learned 286 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: his lessons and now is more unbound and obviously more 287 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: mersurgical in terms of what he's trying to achieve. And 288 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: there's a lot of speculation about serious and significant cuts 289 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: that he's prepared to make in pretty short order, particularly 290 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 1: to the workforce. But also in that respect is a 291 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: tendency now, it seems to me in the Senate, particularly 292 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,920 Speaker 1: with Leeder Thune, we talk about nuclear options, we talk 293 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: about the filibuster. Is there a scenario where he moves 294 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:45,040 Speaker 1: forward if there's stubbornness and we no longer have that 295 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: sixty vote threshold on appropriations. 296 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 2: You know, it's entirely possible. I mean, if they get 297 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 2: that directive from the White House. Given the track record 298 00:15:55,720 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 2: of Congress in this administration, it wouldn't surprise me if 299 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 2: they made the determination that, all right, we'll just blow 300 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 2: up the filibuster all together and then pass this one on, 301 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 2: you know, pass put into place, you know what the 302 00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: president wants to do on purely party lines. It would 303 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 2: be in some ways shocking but not surprising, you know, 304 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:18,960 Speaker 2: I mean, in some ways you always think those two 305 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 2: words go together. But it would shock me. But again, 306 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 2: based on the way in which this Congress has done 307 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,080 Speaker 2: everything and I mean everything that you know the President 308 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: wants them to do, it would wouldn't surprise me. 309 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'd submit. I mean, I asked the question. 310 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: I'm curious your opinion, of course, but also it's a 311 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: question I think we need to ask ourselves because I 312 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: think that outcome, I would argue, is more likely than 313 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: unlikely considering I mean those two words you just said, 314 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: shocking but not surprising, is I mean, if there's there's 315 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: no phrase probably been more uttered in the last eight 316 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: months in that phrase. Look, one of the things that 317 00:16:57,000 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: was uttered was one of the reasons I wanted to 318 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: talk to you, and I'm grateful for this opportunity. And 319 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 1: that was the words that came out of Donald Trump's 320 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,840 Speaker 1: mouth when he reached out to Governor Abbott in Texas 321 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,960 Speaker 1: and he asked for five seats. It's important for folks 322 00:17:11,000 --> 00:17:15,360 Speaker 1: listening as it relates to midtermer districting and moving forward 323 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: that Greg Abbott initially was reticent. Greg Abbott expressed not 324 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 1: just privately but publicly that he wasn't necessarily convinced it 325 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: was quote unquote the right thing to do or the 326 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: timely thing to do. He was quickly disabused of that 327 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 1: when Trump circled back, saying, he's uote unquote entitled to 328 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: those five votes of the rest in Texas's history. But 329 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 1: you have a history in this space going back to 330 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen as a champion for independent redistricting, and I 331 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: want to walk back to that and walk back to 332 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:50,639 Speaker 1: the reasons why this was so important to you, reason 333 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: why it was so important then to President Obama, who 334 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: was a big part of the why you were tasked 335 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: to do this. At least that's what he asserted to me, 336 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: that he was the one who directed maybe you could 337 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: clarify that. 338 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 2: He's directed me to do a whole bunch of things 339 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 2: though the course of the last ten years or so, 340 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 2: you know, or this is true, he said, you need 341 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:11,800 Speaker 2: to head up the NDRC. 342 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,760 Speaker 1: And so what was the idea give us the origin 343 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: story of the NDRC. 344 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, as I was leaving office, he and 345 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 2: I sat down and talked about, let's kind of look 346 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,840 Speaker 2: back and see what is it that we didn't accomplish, 347 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 2: and what were the reasons why we were not as 348 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 2: successful as we might have been. And we looked at 349 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:33,239 Speaker 2: a variety of things, and you know, it really kind 350 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:34,880 Speaker 2: of we kind of tried to fall well, why why why, 351 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 2: And we really came to the conclusion that jerry mandering 352 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 2: was a problem that prevented him from getting in full 353 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: his agenda, although he had significant accomplishments. And then as 354 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 2: we looked more, he said, you know, and a lot 355 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 2: of the stuff that's coming out of the states is 356 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 2: unpopular and nevertheless gets passed, and that was also as 357 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 2: a result of gerrymandering in state legislatures. And so he said, 358 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 2: all right, let's go after that problem. And so we 359 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,479 Speaker 2: formed up the National Democratic Redistricting Committee in January of 360 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. To really promote fairness in the redistricting process, 361 00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 2: Republicans had put together, through a thing called Project red 362 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 2: Map in twenty twenty eleven, jerry manders in a whole 363 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 2: variety of states that have endured, endure through the course 364 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: of that whole decade, and put in place measures at 365 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 2: the state level that you know, people didn't like, but 366 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 2: nevertheless Republicans did it and didn't suffer any political consequence 367 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: because of the jerry manders. And then we had a 368 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 2: jerrymandered House of Representatives. And if you look when we 369 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 2: started out, Democrats had to overperform by about twenty two 370 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 2: percent in order to get to fifty to fifty in 371 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:45,720 Speaker 2: the House of Representatives. As a result of what we've done, 372 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 2: that number is now just about one and a half 373 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 2: percent something like that. We can actually, you know, actually 374 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,320 Speaker 2: handle that. And so we've promoted fairness, and that is 375 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 2: fairness has almost been like a weapon for us. We 376 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 2: use that word. People like the idea that citizens ought 377 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 2: to choose who their representatives are as opposed to politicians 378 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 2: picking their voters. And so that's why we have been 379 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 2: engaged in this fight. 380 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: Mister Attorney General. So much of what you tried to 381 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,439 Speaker 1: achieve and pursue in twenty seventeen had a little bit 382 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: of its origin story. And what happened with the Shelby 383 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: County decision of the Supreme Court, a five to four 384 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: decision in twenty thirteen. Remind everybody what happened at the 385 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 1: Supreme Court in twenty thirteen. 386 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 2: Twenty thirteen, the Supreme Court, as you said, in a 387 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 2: five to four decision, Chief Justice Roberts writing for the majority, 388 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 2: and he stated very famously in his majority opinion that 389 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 2: America has changed, and as a result, they use that 390 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,239 Speaker 2: as the basis to take from the Justice Department the 391 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 2: ability that it had to pre clear changes that states 392 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 2: wanted to make when it came to all kinds of 393 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 2: electoral things, whether it was how lines were drawn with 394 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 2: regard to districts, where polling places should be opened or closed, 395 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 2: where voter purges should be allowed. Took away from the 396 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 2: Justice Department the ability to challenge states when they tried 397 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 2: to do these things, and that has had a really 398 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 2: negative impact. We have seen pole closures all around the country. 399 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 2: It's one of the reasons why you see long lines 400 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 2: in certain states who've seen voter purges that disproportionately occur 401 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 2: in communities of color, in places where democrats are perceived 402 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 2: to live. A whole range of things has happened since 403 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 2: the Shelby County case. It's taken the Justice Department, not 404 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 2: off the field, but certainly taken away from the Justice 405 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 2: Department a lot of the tools that it once had. 406 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 1: And so, you know, in an effort to sort of 407 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: push back, you've been you know, a big party organization 408 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: is also highlighting some of those purges as it relates 409 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: to the voting roles, highlighting some of what is just 410 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: overt voter suppression activities as it relates to reducing the 411 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: number of pulling options and places, what you know, and 412 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: it led to a lot of victories. And I think 413 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: what I'd love to highlight is not just the problem, 414 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: but some of your success in terms of what your 415 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,000 Speaker 1: organization has been able to achieve. And I want to 416 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: get back to Prop fifty. I want to get back 417 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 1: to what's happening not just in Texas but across this 418 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: country at this moment. But talk to me a little 419 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: bit about what you were able to achieve with the 420 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: organization in twenty eighteen nineteen twenty, over the course of 421 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: the last decade or so. 422 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, if you look at the 423 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 2: work that we have done since twenty seventeen, by you know, 424 00:22:33,920 --> 00:22:37,959 Speaker 2: focusing using a state based strategy, different strategy, you know, 425 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 2: depending on the state, By supporting candidates who would stand 426 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,440 Speaker 2: for fairness, by challenging laws that were put in place 427 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 2: or procedures that were being used in a variety of states. 428 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 2: By raising the consciousness of people about the importance of 429 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 2: fair redistricting, by standing for independent commissions and trying to 430 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 2: get those in states wherever we quit and where it's interesting, 431 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 2: wherever we tried to he had an independent commission, whether 432 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 2: it was a red state or a blue state, people 433 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 2: overwhelmingly supported them. We got them in Missouri, we got 434 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 2: them in Utah, and then Republican legislatures, you know, did 435 00:23:09,280 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 2: things to the efforts that we had, but the people 436 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 2: always supported them. And so that's what we have done, 437 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 2: use those different tools, and as a result, we ended 438 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 2: up with maps in twenty twenty four that a lot 439 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 2: of analysts, as well as The New York Times said 440 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 2: produced the fairest maps you know in generations now fairest, 441 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 2: but not totally fair. There are still states that are 442 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 2: are still jury mannered. If you look at Texas, if 443 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 2: you look at Wisconsin, Ohio, Florida, North Carolina, there are 444 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 2: still places that still are still jury mannered and are 445 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 2: still a focus of our work and a big part. 446 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: Of just the jerry mannering. And just to sort of 447 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: unpack this a little bit more, the racial dimensions cannot 448 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,840 Speaker 1: be understated or at least even overstated. I mean, so 449 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: the impacts the black community, Hispanic community, talk a little 450 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,479 Speaker 1: bit more about how that manifests in many of these 451 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: different states. 452 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 2: That's a really important point. This jerrymandering is done on 453 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: the backs of people of color, and one only has 454 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 2: to look at what's going on in Texas. Now they 455 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 2: get there, they think five seats. I think they're being 456 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: a little optimistic, but they get whatever it is they 457 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 2: get out of this, this jerry mandering that they're doing 458 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 2: at the expense of people of color in largely urban areas, 459 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 2: largely Hispanic but African Americans, you knows as well. Uh 460 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 2: we see them, you know, breaking up districts in Austin, 461 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,719 Speaker 2: Texas and San Antonio, enjoying these really weird lines so 462 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 2: that you really decrease, dilute the power, the electoral power 463 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 2: that communities of color have in Texas. Now they'll try 464 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 2: to say this is only partisan, these are only partisan 465 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 2: things that we have done, as if that somehow makes 466 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 2: it better. You know, we're not we're not racist. We're 467 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 2: just doing things, you know, that are inconsistent with our 468 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 2: sense of who we are and consistent with our constitution. 469 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 2: But it's only on a partisan basis. But if you look, 470 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: it always almost always comes down to making it more 471 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 2: difficult for people of color to vote and then taking 472 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: away from people of color, communities of color, the political 473 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 2: power that they long sought and have tried to hold 474 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 2: on to. 475 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 1: So California is one of those states with an independent 476 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: redistricting commission. It was a commission that when I was mayor, 477 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: there was an effort to repeal it that I publicly 478 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: opposed because long supported the idea of independent redistricting. And 479 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: it's a point of pride that this state has been 480 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: one of the leaders. What happened, however, in Texas changed 481 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 1: the equation. And I'm curious, just from your prism and 482 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 1: your perspective as a champion of independent redistricting as well, 483 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: what does Texas represent to you? And first, if I 484 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: could just unpack a deeper question, why do you think 485 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: President Trump made the phone call to Greg Abbott? Why 486 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:11,240 Speaker 1: do you think he even pursued this mid decade redistricting 487 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 1: strategy in the first place. 488 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 2: Well before he picked up the phone, he looked at 489 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 2: his desk, picked up some papers that said, these are 490 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 2: your polling numbers, mister President, and he made the determination 491 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 2: that unless we cheat, unless we come up with more 492 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 2: safe Republican seats, we're in real danger of losing our 493 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 2: majority in the House of Representatives. And that would really 494 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: establish a really huge obstacle to doing the kinds of 495 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 2: radical things that they have done in the first eight 496 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 2: months and want to continue to do over the course 497 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 2: of the next next three years or so. And I 498 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,959 Speaker 2: think that's the thing that generated the call from the 499 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 2: President to the governor in Texas. And it's an interesting thing, 500 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 2: you know, when he called, when the President called those 501 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 2: folks in Georgia and said I need eleven thousands, seven 502 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 2: hundred and eighty votes when it came to the twenty 503 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 2: twenty election, Republicans in Georgia, you know, Secretary of Saint Raffensburg, 504 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 2: a person what I agree with on a whole bunch 505 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 2: of stuff. You know, they at least had the guts 506 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 2: to say, no, we're not going to do that. Called 507 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,479 Speaker 2: Greg Abbott, and he expressed some you know, little concern 508 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 2: about it at the beginning, but at the end of 509 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 2: the day did exactly what it is that you know, 510 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,200 Speaker 2: the President asked him to do. You know, we've always 511 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,960 Speaker 2: thought of the California Independent Commission as the gold standard. 512 00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 2: It's something that as I've campaigned around the country for fairness, 513 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,639 Speaker 2: I've always pointed to California, and I think the system 514 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 2: in California is a great one. But I think the 515 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 2: determination that you made and other Democrats in California was 516 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 2: exactly the right one. Given what they did in Texas 517 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 2: and what they're doing in other states as well. We 518 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 2: couldn't simply disarm. We had to respond to that. And 519 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 2: what I've said, you know, I've thought about this long 520 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 2: and hard before I said, you know, this is something 521 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 2: I think we ought to do because I've been fighting. 522 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 2: I've been fighting against Jerry Mandarin, either by Democrats or Republics. 523 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,119 Speaker 2: But I think that what's happening in California makes a 524 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 2: great deal of sense. It is something that kind of 525 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 2: meets this three part test of mine. It's got to 526 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 2: be responsive and so it's certainly responsive to that which 527 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 2: happened in Texas. It's got to be responsible. Didn't go crazy, 528 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 2: just came up with a way in which you try 529 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,080 Speaker 2: to come up with additional seats. And it's going to 530 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 2: be temporary, you know. I want to get back to 531 00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 2: this whole fight for fairness and the way in which 532 00:28:26,240 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 2: it's crafted in California, in addition to having the people 533 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 2: ultimately vote on it, which is not what happened in Texas. 534 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 2: It only will exist until after the next census. 535 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 1: No, and I appreciate this, and you know, so your 536 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: your evolution was mine as well as someone that believes 537 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: in the principle of independent redistrict as well. 538 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 2: So it wasn't. 539 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: I wasn't an immediate response, frankly was in response to 540 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: outreach by legislative leaders in Texas that said, weok, hey, California, uh, 541 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: you know, have our back, and we thought it may 542 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: be a rhetorical play just to support them and say 543 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: we're watching, we're paying attention, but realizing the consequences of 544 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: these five seats and how that can tip the balance 545 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: and rig the next election. In the twenty twenty six 546 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: we were able to fashion a process that, as you say, 547 00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: is temporary, transparent and democratic. It's the only maps that 548 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 1: are now being presented to the voters themselves. They will 549 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: decide for themselves in the most transparent way, and in 550 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: a temporary way that ends, as you suggest, after the 551 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: twenty eight, eight and thirty and into the thirty two 552 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: census will revert back to its original form. Again only 553 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: in response to Texas. But I want to ask you 554 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: to respond, It's not just Texas, is it, mister Kearny. General, 555 00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: We're seeing this in Missouri just this week. You're seeing 556 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: activity in Indiana, Conversations that are happening in Florida. There's 557 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,479 Speaker 1: different conditions and criteria in Ohio and Utah. Maybe you 558 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:56,600 Speaker 1: can give us the lay of the land more broadly. 559 00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you hit just about all the states 560 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 2: where this is still being considered. You know, Texas has 561 00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 2: already done it, Missouri has already done it, but those 562 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 2: other states are certainly considering it. And you know Ohio 563 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 2: has got to redraw their maps because of a constitutional 564 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,760 Speaker 2: provision there but the question is what are Ohio Republicans 565 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 2: I'm going to do? There is within the Ohio Constitution 566 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 2: a prohibition against partisan jury mannering. So we'll see what 567 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 2: they do in Ohio. What are they going to do 568 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 2: in Kansas? What are they going to do with Florida. 569 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 2: There is a whole range of other states where they've 570 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 2: made the determination that they're going to really kind of cheat. 571 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:31,920 Speaker 2: And that's what it is. You can talk about a 572 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 2: whole bunch of different things. It's cheating. They're going to 573 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 2: cheat to try to hold on to the majority that 574 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 2: they have in the House of Representatives. And it really 575 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 2: comes on the basis of fear. They're afraid of the 576 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 2: people who they say they want to represent. They're afraid 577 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,400 Speaker 2: of the legislative agenda that they have tried to put 578 00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 2: in place. They're afraid of the administrative things that they 579 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 2: have done. They're afraid to be held accountable for, you know, 580 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 2: taking a whole bunch of good people in a whole 581 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 2: variety of government agency around the country and simply told them, 582 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 2: you know, get out of here, you're fired. They're afraid 583 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 2: of trying to defend that which Elon Musk and his 584 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 2: doge Bros. 585 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: Did. 586 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 2: It's all a political fear is that is driving what 587 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 2: it is that they are that they're doing, and it's 588 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 2: fundamentally on American and it's unpatriotic, you know, it's it's cheating. 589 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: But it also goes against that which we do and 590 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 2: which makes I think this nation exceptional. We trust the 591 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 2: people to make determinations about policy in the direction of 592 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 2: the nation, and they want to cut the people out 593 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 2: of the process. 594 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean the de facto eliminated oversight with Congress 595 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: co equal branch of government. Increasingly, particularly with this utilization 596 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: of the shadow docket at the Supreme Court. That's another podcast, 597 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: just the shadow docket and the abuse and use of 598 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: the shadow docket by the Supreme Court itself. By the way, 599 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: for those that are wander when I'm talking about that 600 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,959 Speaker 1: shadow docket is allowed for racial profiling, not just in 601 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 1: relationship to the conversation we're having around voting, but racial 602 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: profiling of people on the basis of their skin color, 603 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: on the basis of where they congregate, on the basis 604 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: of their language. That has given Ice free reign to 605 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: terrorize our diverse communities under no other pretext than is 606 00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: the basis of those simple profiles, and I just never 607 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: thought i'd hear that in my life, and that was 608 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: afforded under the shadow docket by the United States Supreme Court. 609 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: I'm curious, Eric, just the broader issues around voting. I mean, 610 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: how concerned are you not just around the issues of 611 00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: fairness with this redistricting fight, issues of the vanalyzation of 612 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 1: fair and free elections as it relates to what happened 613 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: with Shelby, but what's happening as well with the National 614 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: Guard being deployed in American cities. Are you concerned that's 615 00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: also part of a larger agenda that may actually impact, 616 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: potentially or create a chill around election day as well. 617 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 2: See, I think you pointed out something that's really important 618 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 2: here because I think there's a there's a long term 619 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 2: play here. This is you know, it it's cast as 620 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 2: something that is anti crime. You know, it's pro public 621 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 2: safety does not obviously work. I mean, you know, these 622 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 2: people who serve in the National Guard, you know, I 623 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,520 Speaker 2: admire them, great respect to them, but they're not crime fighters. 624 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 2: That's not what they do. But I think this the 625 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 2: long play here is to desensitize people to the site 626 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 2: of troops on our streets, and I see them. I 627 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 2: can see them trying to deploy troops around the twenty 628 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 2: sixth election. And again, you don't have to do much, 629 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 2: just to just deploy them in certain cities and in 630 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 2: certain neighborhoods, and they'll have a chilling effect in certain 631 00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 2: communities and they hope, they hope, you know, suppress voter 632 00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 2: participation in those communities. So I think it's actually a 633 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 2: long play. I mean, there's an authoritarian component to this 634 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 2: that I think is who Donald that that's who Donald 635 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 2: Trump is. But I think it's also I think you're 636 00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 2: correctly pointing out a long term play to help them 637 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 2: again another way in which they can cheat when it 638 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: comes to the twenty sixth election. 639 00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought it was interesting and people may not 640 00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: be familiar with this. We still have federalized National Guard 641 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,360 Speaker 1: in the state of California. It's not just a conversation 642 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: that's being held in Portland or places like Chicago or 643 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,040 Speaker 1: Memphis for that matter, Washington, d C. It's still the 644 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: case that we have federalized troops and they were intentionally 645 00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 1: from my perspective, not well could have been coincidental, but 646 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: they were announced as extended through election day and to 647 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: reinforce that Eric. This is important as well for folks. 648 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: When we announced our efforts on this redistrict Team Proposition fifty, 649 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: this special election to push back and fight back against 650 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,800 Speaker 1: Trump's efforts. When we announced it, it was in Little 651 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,879 Speaker 1: Tokyo in Los Angeles at the Democracy Center, and at 652 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,520 Speaker 1: the same time we announced it, the Trump administration sent 653 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: out mass men that surrounded us, surrounded and created that chill, 654 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: literally intimidating people that were walking into the rally walking event. 655 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:22,800 Speaker 1: By the way, that included a dozen representatives from Congress, 656 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:27,800 Speaker 1: represent two US Senators, hundreds and hundreds of community leaders, 657 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,479 Speaker 1: and also for me, was a preview of things to come. 658 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: You have now the largest domestic police force in the world, 659 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: arguably particularly with a big, beautiful bill as they describe it, 660 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 1: an additional ten thousand potential staff that increasingly appear. And 661 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:45,680 Speaker 1: this may not be fair, but I don't think it's 662 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: deeply unfair or hyperbolic that increasingly appear to have taken 663 00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: an oath of office to Donald Trump and not the 664 00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,520 Speaker 1: Constitution in terms of how they are conducting many of 665 00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: their activities, and that to me would be exhibit a 666 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: and the conduct that was deeply unbecoming of the men 667 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,359 Speaker 1: and women of ICE and Border Patrol at that Democracy 668 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: Center rally. 669 00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:10,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think this is the kind of thing 670 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 2: that you'd expect to see in a third world country, 671 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 2: you'd expect to see in Russia, you know, so called 672 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 2: banana republics. I mean, the opposition is holding a meeting 673 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 2: to announce a position that it's taking inconsistent with what 674 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 2: the power those who are in power and government are taking. 675 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,000 Speaker 2: And what do they do? They surround, they surround that place, 676 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 2: you know, I mean, I mean, people have we need 677 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 2: to think about that? What does that mean? And then 678 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,080 Speaker 2: you end up with an interior police department that is, 679 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 2: you know, greatly expanded. Again, that's another authoritarian move. I mean, people, 680 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 2: you understand, ICE is going to be substantially larger than 681 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 2: the FBI, I mean substantially larger than the FBI, than 682 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,240 Speaker 2: the DEA. I mean, this is and this is unheard of. ICE. 683 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 2: You know has an important job, but they have never 684 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,840 Speaker 2: been the size that they're going to be. At the 685 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 2: conclusion of all the hiring that Trump and Tom Holman 686 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 2: want to do, Eric. 687 00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,239 Speaker 1: I'm just curious, and you know, I'm sensitive again to 688 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 1: your relationship to confidentiality and just the dignity of of 689 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: your your prior roles and the dignity of the office 690 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: of citizen that you hold today. But you you must 691 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: have had some pretty chilling conversations with some of your colleagues, 692 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: maybe maybe former attorney generals, uh leaders in in in 693 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: these quote unquote power ministries of the FBI and d 694 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,719 Speaker 1: O J and UH they're even the I R S. 695 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,400 Speaker 1: I mean, what what can can you sort of Is 696 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: there a composite picture you can paint, uh in bipartisan 697 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: terms and sort of universal terms in American terms of 698 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: those kind of conversations that you uniquely are positioned to 699 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: have had conducted. 700 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think they operate on a couple of levels. One. 701 00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 2: I talked to a lot of folks who've been in 702 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,480 Speaker 2: the Justice Department for or law enforcement, federal law enforcement, 703 00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 2: for FBI, for you know, extended periods of time, and 704 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 2: they talk about the stock that they have felt as 705 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,239 Speaker 2: a result of, you know, the things that they that 706 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,359 Speaker 2: have been done. Morale is just really you know, it's 707 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,920 Speaker 2: in the toilet when it comes to you know, federal 708 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,320 Speaker 2: law law enforcement. Every a lot of people are afraid. 709 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 2: I mean, these are people, you know, thinking that they 710 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 2: were going to spend their careers, you know, working to 711 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 2: support the mission of the Justice Department, the mission of 712 00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 2: the FBI, regardless of who was the president, who was 713 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,960 Speaker 2: the Attorney general. And so there there is that. I 714 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,400 Speaker 2: also talk to people here in Washington, d C. On 715 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 2: the political side, and you know what really strikes me 716 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,839 Speaker 2: is that, you know, you talk to Republicans and they're 717 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 2: not in front of the camera. They're just talking to me. 718 00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 2: We have relationship. And I'm not going to say this's 719 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,879 Speaker 2: a huge number of people, but they understand that what's 720 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 2: going on is wrong, but they are politically afraid to 721 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 2: come out and say something against that which this administration 722 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,480 Speaker 2: wants to do. I thought it was really interesting that 723 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 2: Romney in his book when he was talking about, you know, 724 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 2: people making up their minds of how they were going 725 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 2: to vote when it came to both impeachment and whether 726 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,760 Speaker 2: or not President Trump would be convicted after January the sixth, 727 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,400 Speaker 2: and he talked about people being politically afraid on the 728 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 2: Republican side, but also being physically afraid for themselves and 729 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 2: for their their families. And I also have heard that 730 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,319 Speaker 2: as well, And so you know, both in terms of 731 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 2: the political class as well as you know the career 732 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 2: folks at the Justice Department, you know, they're they're dealing 733 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 2: with things they didn't have to, they didn't expect to. 734 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 2: And the folks on the legislative side have not necessarily 735 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 2: shown the degree of courage and independence that that you 736 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 2: would hope. 737 00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: So just on that as we close, Eric, what you 738 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 1: know in terms of the frame around courage, the frame 739 00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 1: around conviction standing into the void in the absence of 740 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:56,800 Speaker 1: leadership and oversight and the kind of accountability to expect 741 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: with people in positions of power and influence and in 742 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: the House or Senate and elsewhere. I mean, what, what what? What? 743 00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: What can shape some optimism as we close in terms 744 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: of what we can do, what we can achieve. Obviously 745 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: Prop fifty I believe is foundational on that and will 746 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 1: sort of jump start the twenty twenty six election and 747 00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: taking back the House of Representatives. But in that spirit, 748 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: in that space, what can we be doing more of 749 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: and what gives you some confidence and hope about the 750 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,280 Speaker 1: future and how we can shape shift things. 751 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 2: Well, first, I'd say that Prop. Fifty has got to pass. 752 00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,359 Speaker 2: I mean that is kind of a foundation upon which 753 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,800 Speaker 2: I think this country will regain its sense of it 754 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,280 Speaker 2: of itself. This is an important, important vote. It's crafted 755 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 2: in a way that I think is absolutely responsible, and 756 00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 2: again it's temporary, so I think that has to pass. 757 00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,800 Speaker 2: What gives me optimism, though, is also a knowledge of 758 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,880 Speaker 2: our history. You know, if you look at the great 759 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,200 Speaker 2: social movements in this country, they were launched against overwhelming odds. 760 00:40:58,239 --> 00:40:59,680 Speaker 2: I mean, you can just go to the Civil rights 761 00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 2: strugg I mean John Lewis, Martin, Luther King, Diane Nash. 762 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 2: They had to think, can we rip down young people, 763 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 2: young black people and young white people? Could we rip 764 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,239 Speaker 2: down a system of American apartheid? And I'm sure they 765 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,759 Speaker 2: must have had doubts at times, but they fought through 766 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,360 Speaker 2: those doubts. They showed an unbelievable amount of courage and 767 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,799 Speaker 2: ultimately were successful. Same thing with women trying to get 768 00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,360 Speaker 2: the right to vote, you know, suffragettes at the beginning 769 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 2: of the twentieth century. They showed remarkable courage, pushed through 770 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,399 Speaker 2: those doubts. And that knowledge of history makes me think 771 00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:38,600 Speaker 2: that in this awful moment, that we will demonstrate that 772 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 2: same courage. Every generation of Americans is ultimately called upon 773 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,440 Speaker 2: to defend democracy, whether it's on the beaches at Normandy, 774 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 2: the fields of Gettysburg. You know, now is our time, 775 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 2: and we can't be the first generation of Americans that 776 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:55,879 Speaker 2: is unsuccessful in the defense of our democracy. And I'll 777 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,479 Speaker 2: say this, I say it a lot. You know, Doctor 778 00:41:57,560 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 2: King said that the ark of the mall universe is long, 779 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,799 Speaker 2: but it bends towards justice. But the deal is, it 780 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,400 Speaker 2: doesn't bend on its own. It only bends when people 781 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 2: like us, like you, governor like me, and like regular 782 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,920 Speaker 2: American citizens put their hands on that and pull it 783 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 2: towards justice. And I think that's what each of us 784 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,719 Speaker 2: has to ask, you know, what is it that I 785 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 2: can do? What is it that I can do to 786 00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:23,040 Speaker 2: pull that art towards justice to save our democracy and 787 00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 2: to keep this nation, you know, keep this nation exceptional. 788 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 2: I'm optimistic because of that history, that that that I shared, 789 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,919 Speaker 2: and I think that, you know, optimism breeds engagement, Pessimism 790 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 2: breeds resignation, and so I think we can't afford to 791 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 2: be pessimistic. We have to be optimistic, and we have 792 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,600 Speaker 2: to be active, active, and engaged. 793 00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 1: I love it. It's a wonderful way to close. This notion 794 00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: of active not inert citizenship, this notion that we have agency, 795 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,080 Speaker 1: we can shape the future. It's decisions, not conditions, that 796 00:42:57,120 --> 00:43:00,480 Speaker 1: will determine our faith and future. Eric Holder, it has 797 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:02,359 Speaker 1: been an honor to have you on the podcast. Thanks 798 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,440 Speaker 1: so much for joining, Thanks for having me