1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,680
Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

2
00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:03,800
Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

3
00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,160
Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

4
00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,080
Speaker 1: to share, leave us a message on our hotline number

5
00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,200
Speaker 1: at five one three nine hundred two nine five five.

6
00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,480
Speaker 2: Or sheet us an email at trust Me pod at

7
00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:15,080
Speaker 2: gmail dot com.

8
00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:20,560
Speaker 3: Trust Me, trust Me. I'm like a swat person I've

9
00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:23,400
Speaker 3: ever lived to you, and we never have a live.

10
00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:26,680
Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers,

11
00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,960
Speaker 1: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

12
00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:33,320
Speaker 1: belief and the abuse of power from two people with

13
00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,600
Speaker 1: no psychic ability who've actually experienced it. I am Lola

14
00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,200
Speaker 1: Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth, and today is part

15
00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:42,800
Speaker 1: one of our two part interview with Banichek. He's a

16
00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,199
Speaker 1: mentalist and magician and host of Banicheck's Mind Games live

17
00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:49,199
Speaker 1: at the Stratosphere in Las Vegas. He's extremely accomplished. He's

18
00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,479
Speaker 1: designed illusions for every magician you've ever heard of who's alive.

19
00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:54,960
Speaker 1: Pretty much. Today, he's going to talk to us about

20
00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,000
Speaker 1: what mentalism is and why it looks like psychic ability

21
00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,880
Speaker 1: but isn't. How he became interested in psychokinasis and telepathy,

22
00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:03,480
Speaker 1: and how he and a friend got involved with a

23
00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:06,520
Speaker 1: parapsychology research project called Project Alpha.

24
00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:09,080
Speaker 2: Uh ooh. He's also going to tell us how he

25
00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,520
Speaker 2: and his friend fooled the researchers into thinking they had

26
00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:16,280
Speaker 2: real psychic ability, what the million dollar challenges, and how

27
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,800
Speaker 2: no psychics have yet proven their ability in a scientific setting,

28
00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,280
Speaker 2: and how you can become emotionally invested in something you

29
00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:24,400
Speaker 2: know is an illusion.

30
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:27,919
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, bro, I love this episode. I'm so interested

31
00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,240
Speaker 1: in mentalism and we've talked about it a little bit before.

32
00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,360
Speaker 1: How there are some videos where these stage performers can

33
00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,040
Speaker 1: predict what everyone in the audience is going to draw

34
00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,240
Speaker 1: based on these cues that they gave them. It's fascinating stuff,

35
00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:42,840
Speaker 1: you guys, And it's relevant in my opinion because it's

36
00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,760
Speaker 1: manipulation and it's tricks that some of the best manipulators

37
00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,640
Speaker 1: in the world use for nefarious purposes. So important stuff

38
00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,840
Speaker 1: before we get into it, Megan, what's the goal dose

39
00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:54,920
Speaker 1: thing to happen to you this week?

40
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,960
Speaker 2: I had a pretty good one this week. I manipulated

41
00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,000
Speaker 2: myself on purpose. I went to Disneyland.

42
00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:02,600
Speaker 4: Ah.

43
00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,760
Speaker 2: Love, It's just so fascinating how you know you're in

44
00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,280
Speaker 2: a fake place, Like I know it's Disneyland. I might

45
00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,400
Speaker 2: have said, world, I went to Disneyland, and so I

46
00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,160
Speaker 2: know this village isn't real. I know there's not actually

47
00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,800
Speaker 2: even a room behind the window, but I truly feel

48
00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,440
Speaker 2: like I'm in a heavenly little village where you.

49
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,040
Speaker 4: Want to trick yourself and you can. It's so weird.

50
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,560
Speaker 1: It's an amazing experience. I haven't been in a few years,

51
00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,160
Speaker 1: but the last time I went, I remember seeing the

52
00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,560
Speaker 1: tinker Bell at night, how she flies into the air

53
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,440
Speaker 1: and she's illuminated and there's fireworks, and I was like,

54
00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,520
Speaker 1: not to quote my own song, but I want to

55
00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,840
Speaker 1: believe in the magic, y'all, Like I, yeah, yeah, I

56
00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,720
Speaker 1: don't think there's anything wrong with that cult. No, not

57
00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:45,480
Speaker 1: that that's a cult, you guys, But although there are

58
00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:47,760
Speaker 1: some people who take Disney way too seriously.

59
00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,880
Speaker 2: For sure, and you know Disney, of course is a cult,

60
00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,480
Speaker 2: of course, and that there are people who are obsessed

61
00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,760
Speaker 2: with it and it just buys all of its competition,

62
00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:56,040
Speaker 2: and you know, it's Disney.

63
00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:57,679
Speaker 4: It can be good and it can be bad.

64
00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:02,280
Speaker 2: But as far as just really knowing that something isn't real,

65
00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,040
Speaker 2: but it looks real, So just believing.

66
00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:06,200
Speaker 4: It anyway is interesting.

67
00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:10,560
Speaker 1: I love that, and I feel like that is a

68
00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,160
Speaker 1: really good representation of how we've talked about narcissists, you

69
00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,639
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Like you're looking at something it's

70
00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:18,800
Speaker 1: packaged so beautifully, and you're like, I know this isn't

71
00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:21,280
Speaker 1: good for me, Like, I know this isn't real, but

72
00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,720
Speaker 1: it's so fun to think it is, and yeah, buy

73
00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:26,240
Speaker 1: into it for a little while. You're like, oh, I'm

74
00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:27,800
Speaker 1: com bearing Disney to narcissist.

75
00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:29,880
Speaker 2: Hey, you know what, It made sense to me. I

76
00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:30,960
Speaker 2: agreed right away.

77
00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,360
Speaker 1: No, I love Disneyland. Jack and I've been talking about going.

78
00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,040
Speaker 1: He's never been, so I'm very excited to take.

79
00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,920
Speaker 4: Oh shit, you gotta go, You gotta go, you gotta go.

80
00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,440
Speaker 4: What about you? What's the cultiest thing that happened to

81
00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:43,040
Speaker 4: you this week?

82
00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,200
Speaker 1: I wouldn't even necessarily say it's a culty thing so

83
00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:51,000
Speaker 1: much as I've been really meditating on this idea of

84
00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,360
Speaker 1: like my OCD recovery and mental health and trying to

85
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,760
Speaker 1: understand my own mindset and what hinders my recovery and

86
00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,680
Speaker 1: what helps it. And I was reading about something called

87
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,160
Speaker 1: We're gonna do a like multi part series very soon

88
00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:09,800
Speaker 1: on how to think differently about trauma, which I'm very

89
00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:10,520
Speaker 1: excited about.

90
00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:11,920
Speaker 4: So excited.

91
00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,400
Speaker 1: No, I am too. But in doing research for that,

92
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:16,320
Speaker 1: one of the things that I was reading about was

93
00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,240
Speaker 1: this idea that like one of the factors that makes

94
00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,760
Speaker 1: a difference in how how well you bounce back after

95
00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,080
Speaker 1: like a traumatic experience. I mean, there are many factors,

96
00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:28,640
Speaker 1: to be clear, many factors, but one of them is

97
00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,960
Speaker 1: that you have an internal locus of control. So people

98
00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:34,360
Speaker 1: who have an external locus of control, you know, that's

99
00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:37,200
Speaker 1: when you feel like you have no power over your

100
00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,960
Speaker 1: what happens to you. It's like, oh, the environment, it's whatever,

101
00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,320
Speaker 1: it's the world that's against me, or it's In my case,

102
00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,799
Speaker 1: I was like, well, I'm just like constantly being barraged

103
00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:48,760
Speaker 1: by stimuli and then my brain reacts to that and

104
00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:50,599
Speaker 1: I have no control over that. And I was falling

105
00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,840
Speaker 1: into this hole of like because I struggled with the

106
00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,440
Speaker 1: idea of free will, believing that I have any like

107
00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,680
Speaker 1: power in my own life. So now realizing that has

108
00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,279
Speaker 1: been really interesting because I'm like, Okay, so how do

109
00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:08,280
Speaker 1: you go about rebuilding an internal locus of control when

110
00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,599
Speaker 1: you've got all this like stuff in your brain, like

111
00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:15,960
Speaker 1: I do about like priming and stimuli creating responses, and

112
00:05:16,000 --> 00:05:17,800
Speaker 1: how that so many of the thoughts we think are

113
00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,400
Speaker 1: original are just like coming from something we saw or whatever.

114
00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:23,400
Speaker 1: Like what is the way that I go about reclaiming

115
00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:24,920
Speaker 1: that sense of power for myself?

116
00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:26,680
Speaker 4: I think you just choose one.

117
00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,200
Speaker 2: You choose a thought and it doesn't have to be

118
00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,039
Speaker 2: one hundred percent true, because no thought is. But it's

119
00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,760
Speaker 2: life affirming and you just go towards that and then

120
00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:37,719
Speaker 2: as it evolves you kind of can let it go.

121
00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:39,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, so it is. It does bring up

122
00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,120
Speaker 1: a really interesting question of like, oh, so like we

123
00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,680
Speaker 1: are essentially constructing our own realities all the time, no

124
00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,839
Speaker 1: matter what, And like I do have a choice between

125
00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,560
Speaker 1: like am I going to choose the thought that like, oh,

126
00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:54,839
Speaker 1: I have no control them, just like right, brains are

127
00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:58,320
Speaker 1: just random, you know, like association machines. Or do I

128
00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,680
Speaker 1: choose the thought that like might not always be one

129
00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,599
Speaker 1: hundred percent true, that is that I have some control

130
00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,239
Speaker 1: over my life. And I recognize that the latter now

131
00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,000
Speaker 1: is like a better way to heal, a better way

132
00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,599
Speaker 1: to recover, to move forward. But It's still really hard

133
00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,279
Speaker 1: for me sometimes because I'm like, yeah, but I know

134
00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,479
Speaker 1: the brains do this thing. Of course, we all think

135
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,640
Speaker 1: we're in control and then we're subconsciously reacting to some

136
00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:23,719
Speaker 1: physical process or whatever.

137
00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,360
Speaker 4: You can have too much information at a certain point.

138
00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:29,640
Speaker 1: You really can. I've learned this hard.

139
00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:31,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's why you just have to choose something that

140
00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,840
Speaker 2: you're not married to. You're like, I know, in three

141
00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,680
Speaker 2: years I might see this differently, but it is life

142
00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,400
Speaker 2: affirming and I'm gonna go towards it and like see

143
00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,119
Speaker 2: what happens. You know, because I once read this meme.

144
00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:45,239
Speaker 2: I read a meme you guys, the whole meme.

145
00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:48,920
Speaker 4: On the middle event, but it said like hell is.

146
00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:52,360
Speaker 2: Hanging out with yourself in five years ago, right, and

147
00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,480
Speaker 2: it's just like whatever you think, no matter how smart,

148
00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:57,719
Speaker 2: and five years you're gonna be like, God, I hate you.

149
00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:01,360
Speaker 2: You're so annoying. So you know, just have fun with that.

150
00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:03,160
Speaker 1: I mean, you're right though, you do have to kind

151
00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,680
Speaker 1: of just like make a choice. Yeah, and not like

152
00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,839
Speaker 1: even if I'm fooling myself at the end of the day,

153
00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:10,840
Speaker 1: Like it's hard, you know for me, I'm like the

154
00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:13,480
Speaker 1: truth matters, and of course truth matters, but at the

155
00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,080
Speaker 1: end of the day, also like living life well and

156
00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:20,160
Speaker 1: like experiencing joy really matters. So like you kind of

157
00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,320
Speaker 1: have to pick the version of the truth that makes

158
00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,920
Speaker 1: the most sense for you, which, of course all of

159
00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:29,080
Speaker 1: my like you know, anti indoctrination stuff is like railing

160
00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:30,960
Speaker 1: against that idea. But I do think that at the

161
00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,440
Speaker 1: end of the day, like we have to construct our

162
00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:34,960
Speaker 1: realities in a way that is helpful.

163
00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:41,720
Speaker 2: Wow, thanks till Swan. Well it becomes the next till Swan.

164
00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:43,040
Speaker 1: Please kill me.

165
00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:46,320
Speaker 2: I won't kill you, but I will like what are

166
00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:48,080
Speaker 2: those things like tranquilizer dart you?

167
00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:49,160
Speaker 1: Oh that's nice.

168
00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll low a little like straight into your neck

169
00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,920
Speaker 2: and you'll pass out and then I'll I'll help you.

170
00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,360
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm questioning everything. It's fine, I'll do

171
00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,160
Speaker 1: it in public. You guys can watch my mess unfold

172
00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:02,480
Speaker 1: as everyone has already.

173
00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:03,200
Speaker 4: It's beautiful.

174
00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,800
Speaker 2: Well maybe we uh, we see what happens because there's

175
00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:08,520
Speaker 2: no other option.

176
00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:10,880
Speaker 1: There is no other option, you guys. I'm gonna make

177
00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,200
Speaker 1: some choices and I'm gonna hope for the best, and

178
00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna not obsess like OCD.

179
00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,760
Speaker 4: Wants me to that with Ryandon. I love that.

180
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:21,080
Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. I must songwriter.

181
00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,400
Speaker 4: I don't know if you know that. Yeah, fuck.

182
00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,400
Speaker 1: All right, whatever, fuck it. We're gonna see what happens.

183
00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:29,760
Speaker 4: I can't wait to see what happens.

184
00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,800
Speaker 1: Thank you same. I think let's see what happens in

185
00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:34,640
Speaker 1: this episode with Banichick. What do you say?

186
00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:36,000
Speaker 4: Okay, great, Okay, here we go.

187
00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:51,520
Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Banicheck, mentalist, magician, mind reader. Thank you

188
00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:52,880
Speaker 1: so much for being on the show.

189
00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,160
Speaker 3: It's indeed my pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.

190
00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,959
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, So before we're recording, Banichick remind me

191
00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:02,920
Speaker 1: that he actually helped out on a music video that

192
00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,680
Speaker 1: I shot a few years ago called The Magic And

193
00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:08,000
Speaker 1: there's like a flame trick in that and he super

194
00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,000
Speaker 1: fies on that, which is so fucking cool. I can't

195
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:12,080
Speaker 1: believe that I didn't put that together. I am so

196
00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,840
Speaker 1: excited about having you on today. I am like fascinated

197
00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,640
Speaker 1: by mentalism. Your story in particular is so so interesting

198
00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:20,760
Speaker 1: and the way that the manipulation all relates to cult.

199
00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:22,640
Speaker 1: I just can't wait to get into it. So you

200
00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,080
Speaker 1: currently have a show in Las Vegas called Banachek's Mind

201
00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,520
Speaker 1: Games live at the stratosphere. Correct.

202
00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:29,679
Speaker 3: That is absolutely correct.

203
00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,520
Speaker 1: You are the inventor of effects for David Blaine over

204
00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,360
Speaker 1: two hundred episodes of Chris Angel's Mind Freak. You invented

205
00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,880
Speaker 1: Penn and Teller's most famous effect, the magic bullet catch.

206
00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,120
Speaker 1: You're a best selling author who's performed in all fifty

207
00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:45,120
Speaker 1: states and five continents. You've been an award winning documentary,

208
00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,720
Speaker 1: an honest liar, and over five hundred broadcast appearances. Most

209
00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,600
Speaker 1: awarded mentalist in history. He's been on Joe Rogan, He's

210
00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,200
Speaker 1: been on every now where you can think of, Hello.

211
00:09:54,880 --> 00:09:55,480
Speaker 4: Hello, Hello.

212
00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:57,040
Speaker 1: You're very impassed in this field.

213
00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:57,920
Speaker 4: It is very exciting.

214
00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,480
Speaker 3: Well, thank you for having me on the show. Done now,

215
00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,560
Speaker 3: that's awesome.

216
00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:06,720
Speaker 1: Okay, So for people who aren't familiar with this field

217
00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:08,360
Speaker 1: that you work in, can you just tell us what

218
00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:09,200
Speaker 1: mentalism is?

219
00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,800
Speaker 3: So mentalism, we're not psychics, although there were mentalists. It

220
00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,640
Speaker 3: would like you to think there's psychic but if you

221
00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,880
Speaker 3: use the if you use the word mentalist, it basically

222
00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,320
Speaker 3: means you're using your five known senses to create the

223
00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:23,920
Speaker 3: illusion of a sixth sense mixed with magic to simulate

224
00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,360
Speaker 3: what psychic power would look like if it was indeed genuine.

225
00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,119
Speaker 3: In other words, words, we use tricks. We are not psychics,

226
00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:33,120
Speaker 3: but we look like we are if we're doing our

227
00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:33,720
Speaker 3: job right.

228
00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,000
Speaker 1: Right. So as opposed to like just prop magic, where

229
00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:38,920
Speaker 1: you like pull a rabbit out of a hat, it

230
00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,040
Speaker 1: seems as though you are breading people's minds.

231
00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean in my stage show, I say Penentala,

232
00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:48,000
Speaker 3: they do tricks with fish, coins and balls, Cris Angel

233
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,319
Speaker 3: with beautiful women seeking big road back in the day

234
00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,520
Speaker 3: with lions and tigers. I do tricks with information and

235
00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:54,840
Speaker 3: the human mind. Ooo.

236
00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,640
Speaker 1: I like that. So, Megan, would you like to confess

237
00:10:58,720 --> 00:10:59,880
Speaker 1: how you feel about this interview?

238
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,720
Speaker 2: I am so nervous. I've never been nervous for an interview.

239
00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,400
Speaker 4: I don't know. I feel like I'm gonna throw up.

240
00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:07,240
Speaker 4: I don't know why.

241
00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:13,080
Speaker 1: My suspicion, yeah, is that she doesn't like feeling like people.

242
00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,480
Speaker 4: Know the real me. Yeah, I'm trying. Yeah, maybe, although

243
00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:17,400
Speaker 4: are you afraid.

244
00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:18,760
Speaker 3: Of are you afraid of the real you? I mean,

245
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,240
Speaker 3: do you don't want people to know the real you?

246
00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:21,520
Speaker 3: And maybe that's too personal?

247
00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,840
Speaker 2: I mean I didn't think so, Like I'm a pretty

248
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:26,679
Speaker 2: open book, I thought, but maybe not.

249
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:27,600
Speaker 4: You tell me me.

250
00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,040
Speaker 3: I've heard some of your podcasts and you are pretty

251
00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,719
Speaker 3: open books. So yeah, it's almost like you do put

252
00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:33,560
Speaker 3: everything out there.

253
00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:37,160
Speaker 1: But what if what if there's more?

254
00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:38,800
Speaker 4: I know, Yeah, I can't.

255
00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:40,760
Speaker 2: I can't wait to get into all of this because

256
00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,080
Speaker 2: I don't know what's freaking me out about it, but

257
00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,400
Speaker 2: it's very in my body.

258
00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:46,400
Speaker 4: It's interesting.

259
00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:49,400
Speaker 3: It would be worse if I was if there is

260
00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:51,840
Speaker 3: such a thing a genuine psychic, because then I would

261
00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:53,280
Speaker 3: really know what you're thinking.

262
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,800
Speaker 1: Right right, right, so I know we're on zoom and

263
00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,360
Speaker 1: also just audio for people who are in the podt

264
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,760
Speaker 1: Can you demonstrate some mentalism on us right now? Can

265
00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:04,679
Speaker 1: you do a trick on us?

266
00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,080
Speaker 3: Let's talk for a while and I'll try something later

267
00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:08,840
Speaker 3: on because I then to try to figure out through

268
00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,280
Speaker 3: the interview how you might think. And I'll do something

269
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:15,080
Speaker 3: really really simple because it's extremely difficult to do it digitally.

270
00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,079
Speaker 3: This supposed to doing it if I was one on

271
00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:20,480
Speaker 3: one with you. So let's save that later on and

272
00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,360
Speaker 3: then I we'll discuss that because I think then you'll

273
00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,199
Speaker 3: have a better understanding of what's going on with the mechanics.

274
00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,199
Speaker 1: Love that we did an interview with Bob Niguard.

275
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:30,000
Speaker 4: Yes, thank you.

276
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's amazing. He is fantastic, So yeah, and a

277
00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,000
Speaker 3: very rich history, very rich story, and if you did

278
00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,560
Speaker 3: a podcast with him, I will recommend everybody to go

279
00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:40,120
Speaker 3: back and take a look at that because it's going

280
00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:40,960
Speaker 3: to be incredible.

281
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,079
Speaker 1: I'm sure freaking love that guy. I told a story

282
00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,040
Speaker 1: on that episode about I was basically forced into doing

283
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,160
Speaker 1: a call with the psychic one time because someone was like,

284
00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:50,280
Speaker 1: you have to, you have to. I was like, I

285
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:51,840
Speaker 1: don't want to, and they're like, I'm paying for it,

286
00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,320
Speaker 1: you have to. And I wouldn't give them any information

287
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,199
Speaker 1: on the phone, and they got frustrated with me and

288
00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:58,480
Speaker 1: like basically didn't give me a reading. And I was like, well,

289
00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:01,680
Speaker 1: if you are psyched, you wouldn't need cues for me.

290
00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:04,200
Speaker 1: So that concept in general is what I wanted to

291
00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:04,960
Speaker 1: dive into.

292
00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I did a thing on Nightline where I run

293
00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,040
Speaker 3: the James Randy Educational Foundation Million Dollar Challenge for many years,

294
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,840
Speaker 3: and that's where we have a million dollars for any

295
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:17,000
Speaker 3: psychic that can demonstrate their ability on a proper scientific control,

296
00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,840
Speaker 3: and on Nightline we gave multiple psychics a chance to

297
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:24,160
Speaker 3: win the million dollars and it was really interesting one lady.

298
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,000
Speaker 3: What we did was we took zerox of people's hands

299
00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,840
Speaker 3: and she was to give a reading off the hands,

300
00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:33,160
Speaker 3: and then she was to match it up with a

301
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,520
Speaker 3: biography that she had said, Okay, these are the things

302
00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,280
Speaker 3: I need to know that I can reveal about a

303
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,800
Speaker 3: person that their hands will tell. So it was things

304
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:43,559
Speaker 3: like their job, you know, their relationship and when they

305
00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:45,679
Speaker 3: were born, that kind of stuff. So we put all

306
00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:47,840
Speaker 3: those things down, but we put gloves on everybody that

307
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:49,960
Speaker 3: was sitting up there so she'd get no cues from

308
00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,480
Speaker 3: like rings or things like that, right, And she went

309
00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:55,760
Speaker 3: through and at the very end I think I don't

310
00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:57,520
Speaker 3: think she got any of them right. She might even

311
00:13:57,559 --> 00:13:59,040
Speaker 3: want one, but I don't think she. It was way

312
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,880
Speaker 3: below odds in the end. And her whole thing was

313
00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,880
Speaker 3: after she did it, she said it wasn't fair because

314
00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,240
Speaker 3: I couldn't get any feedback from the people. And I'm like, wait,

315
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,440
Speaker 3: that's exactly what you're not supposed to be getting, right.

316
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:12,760
Speaker 3: It's supposed to be about the lines in the hands.

317
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,040
Speaker 3: That's what you're supposed to be able to read, and

318
00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,040
Speaker 3: that's how you're supposed to match it up with the person,

319
00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:19,680
Speaker 3: not because they're telling you if you're right or if

320
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:22,440
Speaker 3: you're wrong. So if you're wrong, you don't keep going

321
00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:23,520
Speaker 3: down that rabbit hole.

322
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I love her confidence, I have to say,

323
00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:28,720
Speaker 2: getting them all wrong and being like I'm ready, that's

324
00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:29,560
Speaker 2: pretty impressive.

325
00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, well she didn't know, Yeah, she didn't know until

326
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:33,720
Speaker 3: we revealed it. This is what we did was we

327
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,640
Speaker 3: had everybody stand up, take a look. If this is yours,

328
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,000
Speaker 3: you know, hold it up. If it's not, crumpling it up.

329
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,080
Speaker 3: So we had that nice moment of everybody just crumpling

330
00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:43,440
Speaker 3: them up and dropping them on the ground. We had

331
00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,840
Speaker 3: another lady who was a medium, and she claimed that

332
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,160
Speaker 3: she could. And we always want to ask people ahead

333
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,200
Speaker 3: of time is this fair for you? Is it within

334
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,840
Speaker 3: the realm of what you can actually do? And ahead

335
00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:55,680
Speaker 3: of time they would to all say yes, and we

336
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,320
Speaker 3: would say how confident are you that you're going to succeed?

337
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:00,600
Speaker 3: And they were all go like ninety or hundred percent,

338
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,400
Speaker 3: but they all failed. But we had one lady, like

339
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,800
Speaker 3: I said, she was a medium, and what she did

340
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:10,240
Speaker 3: was we had pictures of live people and one picture

341
00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,520
Speaker 3: of a dead person, and these were all placed in

342
00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,800
Speaker 3: envelopes and mixed up, and it was a double blind test.

343
00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,120
Speaker 3: Even I didn't know which one was which. I laid

344
00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,120
Speaker 3: them all out on the table and she was going

345
00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,400
Speaker 3: to contact her spirit and go across the table and

346
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,120
Speaker 3: find the one that was the picture of the dead

347
00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:26,200
Speaker 3: person and keep in mind, and I also called to

348
00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,360
Speaker 3: make sure all those other people were still alive right

349
00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,200
Speaker 3: before we did the test. You just never know. But

350
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,920
Speaker 3: we used famous celebrities like we used Elvis Presley, you know,

351
00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:38,400
Speaker 3: you know, there's Marilyn Monroe, people like that. And there

352
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,880
Speaker 3: was a point where she was getting it wrong, and

353
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:42,600
Speaker 3: each time, I know what went wrong. Let me do

354
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,600
Speaker 3: it again. I know what went wrong. I know what

355
00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:46,560
Speaker 3: went wrong. And there came a point at the end

356
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,040
Speaker 3: when she failed miserably because she had to do multiple,

357
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:53,800
Speaker 3: multiple times trials where she said, I know what was wrong.

358
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:57,800
Speaker 3: Elvis is bigger than life now that he's dead. He

359
00:15:57,840 --> 00:15:59,800
Speaker 3: wants people to still think that he's alive.

360
00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:01,600
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

361
00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:05,680
Speaker 3: They always, yeah, they always they find a justification in

362
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,040
Speaker 3: the end, will matter war right? Why they failed because

363
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,080
Speaker 3: we'd always say, so, what do you think about your

364
00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:14,120
Speaker 3: powers now? And they go, oh, I still have the powers.

365
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,560
Speaker 3: You know it wasn't me, It wasn't the powers. It

366
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,720
Speaker 3: was because of X, Y and Z. It's because the

367
00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,480
Speaker 3: temperature wasn't right in the room. It's because you're a skeptic.

368
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,480
Speaker 3: There's always a reason other than looking the actual facts themselves, Right.

369
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,320
Speaker 1: I tend to be the skeptical person in whatever group

370
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,280
Speaker 1: that I'm in, and there'll be someone who's like, yeah,

371
00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,760
Speaker 1: but what about quantum physics? What about this idea of

372
00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,720
Speaker 1: like particles behaving differently while they're being observed. What about

373
00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,440
Speaker 1: you know, the fact that like maybe ghosts really do

374
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:42,320
Speaker 1: care about the energy of the room. And at that

375
00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:45,000
Speaker 1: point it's like, okay, but if we can't prove it

376
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,760
Speaker 1: in any way and there's no way to test it whatsoever,

377
00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,840
Speaker 1: and it is absolutely never consistent, then what does it

378
00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:52,080
Speaker 1: actually mean? I don't know.

379
00:16:52,360 --> 00:16:54,160
Speaker 3: Well, here's the thing. Let's let's say a medium was

380
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,960
Speaker 3: real anyway, right, Yeah, you wouldn't think that that medium,

381
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,440
Speaker 3: if he really wants to do good, like they say

382
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,960
Speaker 3: they do, you would think that he would want to

383
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,280
Speaker 3: prove to the wall that this is indeed genuine, that

384
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,120
Speaker 3: it is real. Come take a look at it. Let's

385
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,199
Speaker 3: take a look at the science of this, because it

386
00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:12,040
Speaker 3: probably would better mankind as a whole to understand that

387
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,520
Speaker 3: kind of phenomena, But they never ever want to do that.

388
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 3: And yet they always want to say, well, I'm doing good,

389
00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:20,399
Speaker 3: I'm making people feel good. You know what, I can

390
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,239
Speaker 3: get cracked to a junkie. It's going to make him

391
00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,600
Speaker 3: feel good, doesn't mean that it's good for him. There

392
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:27,200
Speaker 3: is a reason that people go through the grieving process,

393
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:28,800
Speaker 3: and part of that is so that you can actually

394
00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:31,359
Speaker 3: stay with the living and function in the living. Because

395
00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,399
Speaker 3: losing somebody that you love, whether it be a child

396
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,600
Speaker 3: or a husband or a wife, that leaves a big

397
00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:40,040
Speaker 3: gaping hole and you have to work through that hole

398
00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,919
Speaker 3: and fill it back up with living things. I had

399
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,639
Speaker 3: a very good friend and she had a kid ten

400
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,439
Speaker 3: years old died of cancer, and she had two daughters

401
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,119
Speaker 3: and her husband, and she went to a medium and

402
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,520
Speaker 3: that medium convinced her that she could talk to her

403
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:56,439
Speaker 3: dead son so much so that she kept going to

404
00:17:56,440 --> 00:17:58,880
Speaker 3: that medium and stop talking to her husband, and stop

405
00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,400
Speaker 3: talking to our kids, which is the living world, right

406
00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,040
Speaker 3: which is the world that she needs to be functioning in.

407
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,400
Speaker 3: She almost ended up in a divorce. In the end,

408
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,760
Speaker 3: she came back to her senses, but it took a

409
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:11,800
Speaker 3: lot of convincing to get her to come back to that.

410
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,639
Speaker 3: And it's really hard to tell somebody who wants to

411
00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:18,640
Speaker 3: talk to their dead loved one. It's hard to tell

412
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,439
Speaker 3: them that this stuff isn't real because it's just it

413
00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,320
Speaker 3: tears on your heartstrings because they're hurting so bad, and

414
00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:27,240
Speaker 3: you just don't want to add to that her that

415
00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,360
Speaker 3: it's really hard to tell them the truth. And that's

416
00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,440
Speaker 3: my big thing with skepticism. Most people that come into

417
00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:35,520
Speaker 3: critical thinking of skepticism that come from that kind of world.

418
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,160
Speaker 3: And we can touch based on where how I came

419
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,480
Speaker 3: into that as well at some point, because I once

420
00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,280
Speaker 3: believed in these type of phenomena. But people that come

421
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,840
Speaker 3: from that world and had this epiphany for whatever reason

422
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:48,679
Speaker 3: it's a fact or something just hits them, they start

423
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,159
Speaker 3: thinking that they're much smarter than the other people that

424
00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,800
Speaker 3: still believe, and they tend to forget that, hey, I

425
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:57,640
Speaker 3: was in that situation as well, doesn't mean I'm stupid.

426
00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:00,800
Speaker 3: It just means I was wrong about that particular thing.

427
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,160
Speaker 3: And so what they do is they start attacking believers

428
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,960
Speaker 3: and their beliefs and treat them like they're idiots. And

429
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,880
Speaker 3: like they're stupid. Rather, it's better to have a conversation

430
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,400
Speaker 3: with people and give them enough information and get them

431
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,000
Speaker 3: interested enough to where they want to do their own research,

432
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,399
Speaker 3: or they start thinking about it, and you're putting that

433
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,120
Speaker 3: little seed in the back of their head because if

434
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,359
Speaker 3: you attack them, they're going to put a wall up,

435
00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,160
Speaker 3: and that doesn't serve anybody any purpose at all.

436
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:27,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

437
00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:30,520
Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember. There was a space scientist guy,

438
00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:35,160
Speaker 1: he was on TV. Yes, I'm trying to remember exactly

439
00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:37,680
Speaker 1: how he put it. But there is a thought experiment

440
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,080
Speaker 1: about if there's a monster in the room, but you

441
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:42,359
Speaker 1: can't see it, you can't touch it, you can't taste it,

442
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,440
Speaker 1: you can't prove that it's really you can't get anything.

443
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,119
Speaker 1: At what point, like, what is the purpose of believing

444
00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:52,040
Speaker 1: that there's a monster in the room. I'm relaying that horribly.

445
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:54,440
Speaker 3: I kind of agree with that, and I sort of don't,

446
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,960
Speaker 3: because there are areas in science you can't see when

447
00:19:57,000 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 3: we get into you know, corner physics and things like that,

448
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,560
Speaker 3: things you can't necessarily understand and see right now, but

449
00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,080
Speaker 3: we find ways to see those things down the line.

450
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:08,199
Speaker 1: So I don't and that is a big argument like

451
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,000
Speaker 1: that people use for like believing in psychics and stuff.

452
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, they do, but it's interesting they go off in

453
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 3: those areas when actually, why don't you just stay with

454
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:20,359
Speaker 3: the subject at hand, the psychics, right, Why don't we

455
00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:25,200
Speaker 3: deal with that? Because that is something that whenever anybody's uncomfortable,

456
00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 3: they change the subject or they go elsewhere to look

457
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:30,359
Speaker 3: for the proof rather than trying to look for the

458
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:32,359
Speaker 3: proof in what it is that they want you to

459
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:32,800
Speaker 3: believe in.

460
00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,440
Speaker 2: So when you watch shows that we've all seen where

461
00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,879
Speaker 2: these people are talking to people who are connecting to

462
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 2: dead loved ones, do you know exactly what they're doing?

463
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:45,159
Speaker 4: Are you like, Oh, that's that one, that's that one,

464
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 4: that's that one.

465
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 3: I can't tell you always on every show that I

466
00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 3: know that because it's TV and there's so much that

467
00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,399
Speaker 3: is hidden and so much that goes on behind the scenes.

468
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,159
Speaker 3: If I'm in the location, usually I know exactly what

469
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:57,880
Speaker 3: they're doing. I do the same thing in my show

470
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 3: at the Strap okay Benichek's mind Game. I get on stage,

471
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,959
Speaker 3: I tell people their thoughts, their names, you know, numbers

472
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:08,639
Speaker 3: out of their driver's license. I used to have a

473
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 3: show called Lepathy and telepathy was all about my life,

474
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:14,120
Speaker 3: my life story. But the whole first half of that

475
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,719
Speaker 3: show was me talking about telepathy and what people believe

476
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,920
Speaker 3: telepathy is. I mean, Einstein had his theory, for had

477
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,679
Speaker 3: his Mariecourage, she had hers, and the list goes on

478
00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,439
Speaker 3: and on and on, and they all had very different theories.

479
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 3: So I'm able to talk about those theories, and I

480
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,639
Speaker 3: was able to perform things along the lines of what

481
00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 3: it was that I was actually speaking about. And I

482
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,919
Speaker 3: would close that first half with talking to people's dead relatives,

483
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 3: which is despicable and disgusting and made me sick to

484
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 3: do it, but there was a purpose and a reason

485
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:45,680
Speaker 3: I felt that I needed to. Oh, by the way,

486
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 3: I was very very careful that the information I gave

487
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,399
Speaker 3: was just me regurgitating information they already believed and thought

488
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 3: back to them. I wouldn't change the belief I wouldn't

489
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,359
Speaker 3: change any of the facts. I wouldn't change any of

490
00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 3: at all. I didn't want to change their thinking, and

491
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,399
Speaker 3: I was very careful about that, not changing their thinking

492
00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:04,840
Speaker 3: about that person. I wouldn't say, oh, they forgive you

493
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 3: or any of those things, right, wow, And there was

494
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 3: a reason I wanted to do that. I wanted my

495
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,639
Speaker 3: audience in the first half of my show to have

496
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 3: the exact same emotional feeling and response that they would

497
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 3: have if they went to any other psychic, because this

498
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 3: is the thing we often get if you start talking

499
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,320
Speaker 3: to them and you give them antidotes and you talk

500
00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,360
Speaker 3: about why this stuff can't be real, they go, yeah,

501
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 3: but there was this one psychic I went to, and

502
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 3: then really going off an emotional response that they had

503
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 3: when they were with that psychic, Right, So I need

504
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 3: people to have that exact same feeling so that when

505
00:22:37,600 --> 00:22:40,360
Speaker 3: we came back from the second half, I would perform

506
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,679
Speaker 3: as if I was still a psychic. And then there

507
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 3: comes a point when I'm talking about mediums and I say,

508
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 3: I believe they're all scum, and I can tell you why.

509
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 3: Now I give my background, my story, and now they're

510
00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 3: more willing to listen because they're emotionally invested in what

511
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 3: I have to say now. And we had a way

512
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 3: of getting feedback from people, and the typical response was

513
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 3: and this is an actual response, but it was pretty typical,

514
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 3: wan Gehl said. She said, I've talked to my mom

515
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 3: about psychic phenomena. I don't believe, and she believes, and

516
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 3: I've actually tried to talk to her because every time

517
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 3: we do we get in this huge fight and we

518
00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 3: don't talk for days. But I came to your show

519
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,159
Speaker 3: and I sat there through the first half and I

520
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,400
Speaker 3: started to think my mom was right. I was like, Wow,

521
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 3: this guy can really do it. I'm sitting here, I'm

522
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 3: watching this. We went into the lobby and my mom

523
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 3: was like a little smug about it. See I told you,

524
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 3: and I didn't really have a response for her. And

525
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,159
Speaker 3: then in the second half, when you came out and

526
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 3: said none of it was real, that it was all

527
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 3: an illusion, I was like wow. And on the way home,

528
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 3: my mom and I had a discussion. For the first time,

529
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,920
Speaker 3: we were actually able to talk about these things because

530
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,719
Speaker 3: we sort of understood where the other person was coming from.

531
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 3: And I thought that was great. That's exactly what I

532
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 3: want to do. I'm not trying to change people's belief

533
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 3: systems in my show. I'm in entertainer, but I do

534
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 3: want to give you a little bit of information, so

535
00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,000
Speaker 3: we'll get you to think about these things a little bit.

536
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:00,960
Speaker 1: Right right.

537
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:02,960
Speaker 4: That reminds me of the dress Is it blue or

538
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 4: is it black? What was it blue or black or gold?

539
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:06,960
Speaker 1: White?

540
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 3: Yeah?

541
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but some people could see it both ways.

542
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: I could see both of them depending when I looked

543
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 2: at it, and I was like, holy shit, it really

544
00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 2: is real that people see things really.

545
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 4: This way anyway, very weird.

546
00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,800
Speaker 3: It's interesting how when we get into our own worlds

547
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 3: we tend to not understand where other people are coming from. Yeah,

548
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 3: a lot of times, because like some people have good memories,

549
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 3: some people have bad memories. And if you've got a

550
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 3: really good memory, you don't understand why this person can't

551
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,760
Speaker 3: remember somebody's name. You go immediately go, oh, you just

552
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 3: don't care or you're not listening. And I guarantee you

553
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 3: I have a bad memory. I also have dyslexia, but

554
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 3: I have a bad memory. And I can ask somebody

555
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 3: their name and repeat it like four or five six times,

556
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,520
Speaker 3: and keep saying it over and over and over again,

557
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 3: and then five minutes go by it and I have

558
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 3: no view what it doesn't mean. I don't care because

559
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:56,959
Speaker 3: I do care and I do want to know it.

560
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 3: I've tried to hold onto it, but I couldn't. But

561
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 3: people have good memories cannot understand that, and people that

562
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 3: have bad memories can't understand the perspective of somebody that

563
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 3: has a really good memory. We see things from our

564
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 3: own little worlds a lot.

565
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: Of time, right, and that is why it's important to

566
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: have conversations like this to see alternative possibilities. Yeah, I

567
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: want to go back to the testing of the psychics

568
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,879
Speaker 1: for a minute, because your backstory is so interesting. So

569
00:25:21,040 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: parapsychology is kind of what you were just talking about,

570
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: where you're testing psychics, the study of mental phenomena which

571
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:31,399
Speaker 1: are excluded from or inexplicable by his orthodox scientific psychology,

572
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: such as hypnosis, telepathy, etc. That kind of thing, psychic abilities.

573
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,679
Speaker 1: So can you tell us a little bit about how

574
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: you first came to be interested in parapsychology and skepticism

575
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:40,719
Speaker 1: of it.

576
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I've got to give you a little bit

577
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 3: background on me so you to understand where it is

578
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 3: I was coming from at the time. When I was

579
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 3: a young kid. So I was born in England. My

580
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 3: mom divorced when I was a year old. She remarried.

581
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 3: We immigrated in South Africa. My mom abandoned me there

582
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 3: when I was nine with two brothers a year and

583
00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 3: three years old. We had an alcoholic step farther, but

584
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,440
Speaker 3: he was never around. Maybe we saw him on Sundays.

585
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 3: And I pretty much raised my brothers by myself. And

586
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 3: while I was in South Africa, when I was probably

587
00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 3: about thirteen fourteen years old, there was a superhero that

588
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 3: was coming to town and he had told the world

589
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 3: that he could bend metal with his mind and he

590
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 3: had convinced scientists at Stanford Research Institute, at least he

591
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 3: said he had, and he was using that as sort

592
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 3: of a bit of an endorsement. But he told everybody that, hey,

593
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 3: you can do this too. I'm going to teach you

594
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,359
Speaker 3: how to do it in your home. So Springbok Radio

595
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 3: was the only radio station there at the time, and

596
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 3: they didn't even have television, so this was through the radio.

597
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 3: And his name was Uri Gello. So Uri Gala said,

598
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 3: go get yourself a piece of metal. And I'm sitting

599
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 3: listening to the radio. So I walked around the house.

600
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 3: I found a little pin that my mom had left

601
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 3: in a sewing kit, and I brought it to the

602
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 3: radio and I concentrated on it. He said, concentrated on

603
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 3: and I did, and I concentrated and it bent, or

604
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 3: at least I thought it e bent on a micro level, right,

605
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 3: I mean, why would I not want to believe with

606
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 3: the existence that I had at that time, Why would

607
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 3: I want would not want to have this superpower? Right,

608
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 3: something beyond the existence I had, So I believed it

609
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,199
Speaker 3: had bent. I left there in nineteen seventy six to

610
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 3: find my biological dad in Australia. I moved to the

611
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 3: United States and it was while we were in Colorado

612
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,479
Speaker 3: I picked up a book by James the Amazing Randy,

613
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 3: and it was called The Truth about Uri Gella. And

614
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 3: as I read the book, the Truth, as Randy said,

615
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 3: it was a gallo is nothing more than a magician

616
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 3: posing as a psychic. Now keep in mind, when I

617
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 3: was in South Africa, any adults I did know they

618
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,160
Speaker 3: believed in Gella, so I automatically believed in him as well.

619
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,360
Speaker 3: So when I was reading the book, I got quite upset,

620
00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 3: not at them, and I got upset at myself because

621
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 3: I quickly realized just because people are in a position

622
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,680
Speaker 3: or authority doesn't make them an authority on a subject, right,

623
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 3: And I took it that they had believes, so it

624
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 3: had to be real. In the book, it mentioned a

625
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 3: method for bending a nail and a key, and so

626
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 3: I started doing those. But I started creating my own methods,

627
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 3: and then I started creating methods for bending silverware so much.

628
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 3: When I was in high school in Pennsylvania, all the

629
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 3: kids were stealing all the cutlery from the cafeteria bringing

630
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 3: it to me, and I got suspended to that, and

631
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,000
Speaker 3: they went to plastic word until I graduated. I figured

632
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 3: a way to make the school bell go off early,

633
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 3: and I told everybody I was going to make the

634
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 3: school bell go off early using psychic powers during the

635
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 3: day so we can get out of school early. I

636
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 3: got in trouble for that too. I was just shorting

637
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 3: wires and then I wrote Brandy a letter and I said, look,

638
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 3: if you ever need a kid to convince scientists that

639
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 3: this stuff is real, I would be happy to. Now,

640
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 3: keep in mind, you got to look at the culture

641
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 3: back then. This is the late nineteen seventies and going

642
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 3: into the nineteen eighties, psychic powers were all the thing.

643
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 3: That's when pyramid powers started coming out. You put a

644
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 3: razor blade under a little pyramid and it would sharpened.

645
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 3: Gallo was the rage. You had all this stuff coming

646
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 3: out from behind the iron curtain over there from Russia

647
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 3: with about their psychics. You had in Search of which

648
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 3: was the number one rated show that was on television

649
00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 3: at the time, with the Leonard Nimoy and it was seventies, Yeah,

650
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 3: late seventies, yeah, yeah, So everybody was truly believing this stuff.

651
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 3: Now there was no evidence of ESPN a proper scientific control,

652
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 3: and scientists lamented that the only reason why was because

653
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 3: of the lack of funding. Even at that young age.

654
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 3: It was my contention had nothing to do with funding.

655
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 3: It had to do that they believed in this stuff,

656
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 3: and they were going in and rather than trying to

657
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 3: find out if it was real, they're going to be

658
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 3: documenting their own beliefs. So their own biases were going

659
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 3: to be getting the way. And also because they had PhDs,

660
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 3: they thought they were too smart to be full. But

661
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 3: I went to go see Randy. Randy didn't show me anything,

662
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 3: by the way, He just wanted to meet me and

663
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 3: find out about my personality. And I found out years

664
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 3: later the reason being is he if this ever came about,

665
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 3: he wanted to be able to tell. Scientists said, hey,

666
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 3: I didn't teach this kid. Can you imagine if I

667
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 3: had taught him what he could have gone away with

668
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 3: and I think back now and I think Randy was

669
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 3: a pure magician. Had Randy have taught me, I probably

670
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 3: will have looked more like a magician than a psychic

671
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 3: because I didn't know there was a subcategory of magic

672
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 3: at the time called mentalism. I just knew that there

673
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 3: were people people using tricks. That's all that I knew.

674
00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 3: So that's why I was creating my own tricks to

675
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 3: four people. I went back home, and then it was

676
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 3: in nineteen seventy nine there was an Associated Press article

677
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 3: that came out and it said that Washington University was

678
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 3: looking for kids that could then medal with their mind. Well,

679
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 3: that was right up my alley. So I went to Ale.

680
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,520
Speaker 3: They accepted me, they wanted to meet with me, and

681
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 3: then I got a phone call from Randy a couple

682
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: of days later, and Randy said, Hey, this this guy

683
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 3: you know in Saint Louis. He's been given a half

684
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 3: a million dollars to study psychic phenomenal. I said, think

685
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 3: of his initials, and I said, as a start with

686
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 3: a P and as a second initial piece said you

687
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 3: know already. I said, yes, I've already been accepted. At

688
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 3: that time, he told me about another kid by the

689
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 3: name of Mike Edwards, and Mike had already been there.

690
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 3: Mike had been keys for them, but he was also

691
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 3: a magician, and he had called Randy, and Randy I said, well,

692
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:54,719
Speaker 3: what do you know about this kid? He says, well,

693
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 3: I don't know anything. And Mike had asked him about

694
00:30:57,400 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 3: me as well, and he says, well, I don't know

695
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 3: a lot about Manchet, but time it was Steve Shaw.

696
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 3: So for four years, Mike and there's a lot of

697
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 3: interesting stories. We can go down if you want to

698
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 3: get there at some point. But we went there and

699
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 3: for four years we convinced the scientists we were indeed

700
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 3: genuine psychics. I wanted to come out in the very

701
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 3: end explain it was a hoax. We ended up in

702
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 3: every psychology magazine around the world, in fact, every newspaper

703
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 3: around the world, and every psychology booked in every university

704
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:26,959
Speaker 3: at the very beginning of in the psychology textbooks any

705
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 3: section that was on parapsychology. So it changed the face

706
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 3: of psychology forever.

707
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: So this is called Project Alpha, right, yes, yep. So

708
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: what were some of the abilities besides spoon bending that

709
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 1: you convinced people that you guys.

710
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 3: Had well, I never said no to anything, and they

711
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 3: wanted to expand our abilities to find out what other

712
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 3: abilities we might have besides bending metal. Right, So they

713
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 3: would do things like they might take pictures. We talked

714
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 3: about pictures earlier on, and they put them in envelopes

715
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 3: and then they would sit me in a room all

716
00:31:57,320 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 3: by myself and they would give me one envelope, would

717
00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 3: show me slides different pictures, and then I would walk

718
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 3: out and I would say, I think it's slide number

719
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 3: three that happens to be in this envelope, and they

720
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 3: would open it up and I was hitting way above average.

721
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 3: I wasn't perfect every time, because that would be suspect, right,

722
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 3: So I made sure I was just way above average

723
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 3: and it meant something to them, and I found out.

724
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 3: So let me go back just a little bit. As

725
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,640
Speaker 3: I said, I never said no to anything, and Mike,

726
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 3: who was a law student, was a little bit more

727
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 3: conservative than I was. Mike and I we had a

728
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 3: cue that if we ever wanted to speak, we would

729
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 3: tap each other's foot under the table and say, hey,

730
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 3: you want to go get a drink? Because the coke

731
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 3: machines were outside way down the hallway and vending container,

732
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 3: and one time they actually put a rota on a

733
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 3: needle under a bell jar and they said, can you

734
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 3: concentrate and make it move to the left. And I'm concentrating,

735
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 3: I think, so next thing you know, it's spinning to

736
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 3: the left. They say, can you make it spin to

737
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 3: the right so people don't think it's air currents. I

738
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 3: have it spinning to the right and Matt, Mike tefts

739
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 3: me under the table. He says, you want to go

740
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 3: to get a drink? I go no, because I know

741
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 3: exactly what he wants. And they said, do you want

742
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 3: to go get a drink? Digit's foot into mine. We

743
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 3: go down the hallway and says, how did you do it?

744
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 3: I said, you know, Mike, we've been here and can

745
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 3: we keep coming? You know? And it's been like a

746
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 3: couple of years now I just found out I'm a

747
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 3: genuine psychic. Know how did you do it? So exactly

748
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 3: what I did. We went back in the room and

749
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 3: he was doing it a few seconds later. And that

750
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 3: happened a lot with these different experiments, that Mike would

751
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 3: be doing it shortly after me, and same thing with

752
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 3: the envelopes. So I'll tell you how we did the envelopes. Yeah,

753
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 3: so what we did was I found out that I

754
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 3: was in the room. I'm all by myself. I have

755
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: an envelope that's staple shot and there's a picture in it.

756
00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 3: Hold out to the light. You can't see anything. And

757
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 3: I'm sitting there and I can sit there for as

758
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 3: long as I want. I just watch the slides over

759
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 3: and over. When I'm done on the come out and

760
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 3: give them the envelope. They're not even watching me in

761
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 3: that room. So what I did was I pried out

762
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 3: all the staples, put them in an ashtray, open it

763
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 3: up just pete, put it back in, closed it, push

764
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,959
Speaker 3: all the staples back through, and close the stables. Oh god,

765
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 3: I told Mike this is what I was doing. So

766
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 3: next thing, you know, Mike's able to do it. There

767
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 3: was a problem though, because Mike went into the room

768
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 3: and he poured out the staples and he put them

769
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,280
Speaker 3: on the arm of the chair, but not in an ashtraft.

770
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 3: I forgot to tell him that. I just told him

771
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 3: I was pulling the staples out. He goes, he looks,

772
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,359
Speaker 3: he sees what it is, but he bumps the arm

773
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 3: of the chair and he cannot find all the staples.

774
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 3: He pushes them in, so he's missing like two or

775
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 3: three staples at the end. So he comes back into

776
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 3: the room and he thinks fast he calls it, but

777
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,200
Speaker 3: he miscalls it because they don't really bring any heat

778
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 3: to the picture. And he starts to tear it open.

779
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 3: They're like, no, no, no, you can't open it, and

780
00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 3: they tear it open, and the rest of the way.

781
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 3: But that was one of the things, most of the

782
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 3: things we did with that.

783
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 4: Simple Were they so mad at you at.

784
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 3: The very end. I don't know if they were mad

785
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 3: as much as being hurt. I mean, let's keep in mind,

786
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 3: Mike and I went in thinking we were going to

787
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 3: be the knights and shining armor, right, and they were

788
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 3: the enemy. That's how we saw it. They were the enemy,

789
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 3: and you know they were promoting this stuff, and you know,

790
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 3: these were bad people. Once we got in there, we

791
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 3: realized these are really good people. They have good hearts.

792
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 3: They were just very naive about this one era, so

793
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 3: much so that even when we first went in, Randy

794
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 3: sent them eleven caveats of things you should and should

795
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,919
Speaker 3: not do. Don't let the subjects control the experiments, mark

796
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 3: everything on a micro macro level, and there was this

797
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 3: whole list of different things. They showed Mike and I

798
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 3: that list. When we first came in and said this

799
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 3: came from this guy by the name of James, Randy

800
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 3: reacted like we didn't know who he was, and they

801
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,160
Speaker 3: had a good laugh about the list. They said, this

802
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 3: would make you so uncomfortable, and they threw the list away.

803
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 3: Had they followed everything on that list, we wouldn't have

804
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 3: got away with anything. But they wanted to make us

805
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,960
Speaker 3: comfortable so they could document what they already believed in.

806
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 3: And one of the very first experiments was they had

807
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 3: silvera were cutlery and they would mark on a micro

808
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,919
Speaker 3: that they didn't mark it on a micro a macro level.

809
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 3: They marked it on a macro level. And the way

810
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 3: they did it was they had little tags with numbers

811
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 3: on them, and I probably had twenty twenty five different

812
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 3: pieces of cutlery, and there'd be all different shapes, all

813
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 3: different sizes, so the measurements are all different. So at

814
00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 3: one point I would pick up a spoon and I

815
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 3: would concentrate it and go, you know, this tag's in

816
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,359
Speaker 3: my way, Do you mind if I take it off?

817
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,400
Speaker 3: I'm now controlling the experiment, which Randy said, don't let

818
00:36:24,400 --> 00:36:25,960
Speaker 3: them do that. I take it off, I put it

819
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 3: on the table. I concentrate, and nothing happens. I put

820
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 3: it down. Randy also said, don't let them work with

821
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 3: more than one item at a time. But I pick

822
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 3: up another four baby, I concentrate, take the tag off,

823
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 3: concentrate some more. But I switched the tags around, put

824
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 3: them back on the table. About an hour goes by

825
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:45,719
Speaker 3: of working with these. I know which numbers those are.

826
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 3: I pick one of them up. I say, can you

827
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 3: go ahead and measure this. I feel like something happened.

828
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 3: They measure it, and of course the dimensions are now different,

829
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 3: and to them that was evidence of psychic phenomena that

830
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 3: I had bent that fort on a micro level. Later

831
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 3: on we started doing more macrobins. But keep in mind,

832
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 3: at the beginning, Mike and I did not know what

833
00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 3: we would be getting into. We didn't know if they

834
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 3: were going to be hidden cameras, or if they were

835
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 3: going to say they're turning a camera off and it

836
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,040
Speaker 3: wasn't off and it would actually be on. We had

837
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,160
Speaker 3: no clue, and we were very very careful in the

838
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 3: beginning about how big of a band. We cause.

839
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 1: That idea of oh, well, the person with the power

840
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 1: has to be comfortable is where it starts to get

841
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: into Harry's territory, I think, because at that point, I

842
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: love this idea that you're letting them control the experiment.

843
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: When we look at some of these spiritual leaders, which

844
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 1: I want to put in quotes because some of them

845
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 1: are just pure Charlatan. Some of them they may be

846
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 1: genuinely teaching meditation or something, but so much of it

847
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 1: is about just like the atmosphere and the environment, and

848
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 1: they're completely in control of what's happening because they have

849
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: to be in a certain mental space in order for

850
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: it to work. But also, like that is not exactly

851
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: a scientific procedure, for like, I wouldn't look to those

852
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: scenarios for real evidence of somebody's power, right if they're

853
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: completely of all of the factors.

854
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 3: It was a BBC producer that game in the United

855
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 3: States towards the end of Project out for and he

856
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 3: wrote Randy a letter said, what would convince you this

857
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 3: is real? So Randy gave him the exact same eleven caveats.

858
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 3: Now it was me, it was Mike, and there was

859
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,760
Speaker 3: another kid from Japan by the name of Maslawaukee Kyota

860
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 3: and Masawaukee Kyota. I had a way to twist the spoon,

861
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,319
Speaker 3: and he would wait till nobody's looking, and he would

862
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 3: have a gimmick and his shoe and it would go

863
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 3: under the table and he would give it a twist

864
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 3: and then he would bring it out and then he

865
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 3: would reveal it very slowly that it was twisting. This

866
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 3: producer followed every roll of Randy's during the shooting and

867
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 3: absolutely nothing happened. To keep in mind, this guy was

868
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,160
Speaker 3: a true believer. Once the cameras went off, Masawaukee Kiota,

869
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 3: the Japanese kid who I didn't know he was, just

870
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 3: happened to be at the same conference. He twisted a

871
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 3: spoon and made it twist. The BBC producer had a

872
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,400
Speaker 3: complete mental breakdown. Now at time when we first went

873
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:56,800
Speaker 3: into this Mike and I thought, Okay, it's not harmful,

874
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 3: it's not really hurting anybody. We're not going to hurt anybody.

875
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 3: But he had a fleet mental breakdown. He started screaming

876
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,720
Speaker 3: and shouting that Randy was the devil, Randy was evil.

877
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 3: If it wasn't from Randy, and how do you not

878
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 3: listen to Randy. He would have got that on tape. Wow,

879
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 3: he had such a mental breakdown that and I've heard

880
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 3: your podcast, so I think it's okay. I'm going to

881
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 3: say this. A white stain appeared on the front of

882
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 3: his pants. He looked down and said he had he

883
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 3: said it his own words, a demonic ejaculation. Why I

884
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 3: had to spend I had to spend the night with

885
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 3: his assistant because he was calling her all night ranking

886
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,520
Speaker 3: and raving to her how evil Randy was and he

887
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 3: should never listen to Randy. And it was at that

888
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,480
Speaker 3: point that Mike and I who we were young, you know,

889
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 3: we're still kids, and it scared us because we realized,

890
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 3: you know, hey, people nowadays will take a look at

891
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 3: metal bending and go, oh, it's just you know, it's

892
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 3: just metal bending. It's not a big deal. But people

893
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:56,200
Speaker 3: were very much invested in this power, in having those

894
00:39:56,239 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 3: abilities and those abilities actually being real. Same as when

895
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 3: we take look back now and we go look at

896
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 3: spirit cabinets, right, but back in the day of Sir

897
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 3: Arthur Conan Doyle and those people, the spirit cabinet, that

898
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 3: was the proof they are looking looking for, the physical

899
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 3: proof they had been looking for all those years that

900
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 3: these spirits actually existed. In reality, it's not more than

901
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 3: a rogue tide. A spirit cabinet is where a medium

902
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 3: is tied down, either to a chair or in a cabinet.

903
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 3: Nowadays we tend to do imitations of them, and the

904
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 3: medium would actually be tied down to a chair, and

905
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 3: there'll be tambourines put into the cabinet, and these are

906
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 3: using cloth cabinets now that can open with a curtain

907
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 3: and close, and there would be musical instruments put in there.

908
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 3: And then and what would happen was the cabinet would

909
00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 3: be closed, tambourines would make their noise, sometimes they would

910
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 3: fly over the top, musical instruments would play. They'd quickly

911
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 3: open it up, and everybody would check, and the medium

912
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 3: would still be tied up and in a trance. Sometimes

913
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 3: a curtain would be closed and you would see a hand,

914
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 3: or sometimes if it is dark enough, the curtain would

915
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 3: open you see a little child standing there, or a

916
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 3: ghost standing there, or ectoplasm coming out of the mediu

917
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,799
Speaker 3: and then it would be closed, open back up, and

918
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 3: there's nothing there anymore. But it was all trickery. It

919
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 3: was all trickery. Exposed many times exposed by Budini Donager

920
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 3: and others through the years. So it's just being a

921
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 3: fake and a fraud.

922
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: Right, Let's bring it into some cult territory here. So

923
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, so he came up with this

924
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:31,280
Speaker 1: eight criteria for thought reform, which outlines exactly how indoctrination occurs.

925
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: The second of the eight criteria is called mystical manipulation,

926
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 1: which is basically exactly what it sounds like. I found

927
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 1: this on the internet to describe it. It is the manipulation

928
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 1: of experiences that appears spontaneous, but is in fact planned

929
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: and orchestrated by the group or its leaders to demonstrate

930
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,760
Speaker 1: divine authority, spiritual advancement, or some exceptional talent or insight

931
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: that says the leader and or group apart from humanity,

932
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: coincidences and happenstance oddities are interpreted as omens or prophecies.

933
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,839
Speaker 1: So that's exactly the kind of thing that we're talking

934
00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 1: abot are here. Yet, what were you to say?

935
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:03,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's interesting you say that because the very

936
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 3: first thing I ever did for the scientists was something

937
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 3: along those lines that I was setting up that would

938
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 3: appear to be spontaneous. Later there's a thing called spontaneous

939
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 3: pea case. It's basically PK stands for psychic kinesis, and

940
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 3: it's the idea of this almost potaguist like it right

941
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 3: where a psychic in a room sometimes will have these

942
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:24,840
Speaker 3: bursts of energies and things would just happen around them. Now,

943
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 3: as the psychic, you're actually using that, And I'm going

944
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 3: to put myself in that position right now, because that's

945
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,920
Speaker 3: the part that I was playing a psychic. You're using

946
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 3: that to convince them that your abilities are real, And

947
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 3: in that situation, it was so that they would think, someday,

948
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 3: I'm going to get that on film. Someday that's going

949
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 3: to happen right in front of me, and I'm actually

950
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 3: going to see it happen as opposed to finding it.

951
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 3: So when Mike and I first met at the airport,

952
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 3: we met because we both got off our planes a

953
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,879
Speaker 3: little bit before. Peter Peter Pop Peter Peter Papa's another

954
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:55,720
Speaker 3: one that's the evangelist. We can go down that rabbit

955
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,359
Speaker 3: hole a bit, but Peter Phillis I kind of feel

956
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 3: like Superman when I talk about this. Lang and Lanta

957
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 3: over two holes. Right. Yeah. So so we get off

958
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 3: the plane and Mike and I knew right away we're

959
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,359
Speaker 3: going to hit it off. Now, we rented a car,

960
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 3: and for some reason, Mike couldn't drive the rental car,

961
00:43:14,080 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 3: and neither could I. I think it might have been

962
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 3: something to do without age. So we were we were

963
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 3: driving Peter's car and following him in the rental car,

964
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:23,399
Speaker 3: and as we're doing that, I look in the back

965
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 3: seat and I happen to see that there's a briefcase

966
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 3: back there. So I slide it over into the front

967
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 3: below the dash. It's locked, and going, oh, if something's locked,

968
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 3: that means they don't want you in it. So I

969
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 3: picked it. It was a cheap briefcase. Open it up and

970
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 3: there's all this cutlery in there, this fork, says spoons like, oh,

971
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 3: this must be stuff for the experiments later on. So

972
00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 3: I started bending them all up, locked it up, put

973
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 3: it in the back. Then I reach over in the

974
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 3: glove compartment. I look inside there and I see a

975
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 3: few things. I bend them up. I throw a couple

976
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 3: of bent pennies and quarters in there as well. He's

977
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 3: in the ignition, and Mike says, I think we've done

978
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 3: enough damage. But the idea was if they would find

979
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 3: these things later on, right, like he would take his

980
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:01,759
Speaker 3: three case, take it in the house, put it down,

981
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 3: take it a work where we're not even there, open

982
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 3: it up, and they're all bent must be spontaneous PK.

983
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:10,440
Speaker 3: So it's that same thing that you're talking about that

984
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 3: convinces them that this is absolutely real, and it just keeps.

985
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 4: Them hanging on right.

986
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: And I think it's so important because, like we talk

987
00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 1: about what the steps are for making somebody become emotionally

988
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 1: reliant on a leader of some kind, and this is

989
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: such a crucial part of that process because once you've

990
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 1: convinced someone that you have like magical powers or you're

991
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,840
Speaker 1: in touch with God or whatever, then you are the authority.

992
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: Like if I truly believed that you, Benichek were a

993
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: mind reader, I would probably be way more likely to

994
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 1: entrust you with my life decisions. Or if you were

995
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 1: psychic and you could see the future, like at that point,

996
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 1: now you've earned my trust, and that's when it starts

997
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: to get dangerous.

998
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 3: Right, This is this is why I have a problem

999
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 3: with some mentalists to perform and don't believe that they

1000
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 3: have to give disclaimers. Right. I'm not going to tell

1001
00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 3: them performance what they should do. I'll tell them why

1002
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 3: I do and why I think it's the right thing

1003
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 3: to do. I know there are going to people that

1004
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:06,719
Speaker 3: people that come to my show, they're gonna believe no

1005
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 3: matter what I say. They're gonna believe because that's you know,

1006
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 3: where they're coming from. They're gonna be a group of

1007
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 3: skept that's gonna come not gonna believe no matter what

1008
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 3: I say. But there's a large group of people that

1009
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 3: come that are in the middle. They've never seen a

1010
00:45:18,239 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 3: mental performer. They've never seen a mentalist, to my reader,

1011
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 3: So I become the authoritative figure on that stage. If

1012
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 3: they have no explanation, whatever explanation I'm giving or presenting

1013
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 3: is what they're gonna walk away with now. In order

1014
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 3: for me to make it look like I'm duplicating psychic

1015
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,399
Speaker 3: phenomena within the moments of doing these demonstrations, I have

1016
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 3: to make it look real. But I have a responsibility

1017
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:45,919
Speaker 3: to remind them, hey, I'm not a psychic, you know. Hey,

1018
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:49,160
Speaker 3: I'm not an expert at body language. I use tricks,

1019
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 3: and I use tricks of the human mind, and you

1020
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 3: have a mystery to solve. So that's that's where I'm

1021
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 3: coming from, and I think it's really important to remind

1022
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 3: people of that, because my job is simply to entertain,

1023
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 3: not to change your belief system while you're in there.

1024
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,879
Speaker 1: All right, everybody, That is part one. Stay tuned next

1025
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: week for part two. We get into so much more stuff.

1026
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 1: So Omegan, yes, you know, Banichick is not a cult obviously,

1027
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,879
Speaker 1: although we love him. If you were someone working at

1028
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 1: Project Alpha and you witness these two boys behaving in

1029
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,279
Speaker 1: ways that seemed kind of psychic, and you're maybe not

1030
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 1: necessarily like rigorously utilizing the scientific method, but.

1031
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 4: That doesn't sound like me vaguely, do you think that?

1032
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 1: Do you think that you would buy it? Do you

1033
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:34,560
Speaker 1: think you'd buy it?

1034
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 4: Of course, go on.

1035
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, they'd be like, oh, I'm psychic, and I'd be like,

1036
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 2: you definitely are, and then they would's sake, and then

1037
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:44,600
Speaker 2: you know, once they proved one thing.

1038
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 4: Although I have to say I'm also very a suspicious person.

1039
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 2: Who is almost funnily always the one who like catches things,

1040
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 2: So maybe maybe there you are.

1041
00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so weird.

1042
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 2: I did not know this about you know, It's like

1043
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 2: it's like I'm just staring with penwheels in my head

1044
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 2: and then suddenly like something will stand out and people be.

1045
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 4: Like, oh my god, you're right, so great skill. Yeah,

1046
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 4: maybe i'd notice it. I don't know.

1047
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I mean I have no idea if I.

1048
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 1: I think it would depend on how well versed I

1049
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: was in, like what counts as reliable research, right, what

1050
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 1: factors to account for?

1051
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 2: You know? Well, I mean I will say just to

1052
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 2: kind of tie it back into going to Disneyland and

1053
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,239
Speaker 2: that it's interesting to know something's not real but it

1054
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,879
Speaker 2: still feels so real, you know. I know he's doing

1055
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 2: a magic trick now, but it still feels like magic.

1056
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:40,279
Speaker 2: It still feels magical. Yeah, oh my god. I mean

1057
00:47:40,440 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 2: that's so cool that it's not but it feels that way.

1058
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 4: So I don't know.

1059
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 2: That's just a kind of separate observation as a helicopter

1060
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 2: lands on my house.

1061
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 1: But that yeah, what did you do, Megan?

1062
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 4: I did it.

1063
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just always really fascinated by mystical manipulation,

1064
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: which is one of Robert Jaylfton whatever. I think I've

1065
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:02,879
Speaker 1: mentioned it earlier in the episode. But we all want

1066
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: to feel magic, we all want to believe that. You know,

1067
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: when I was sixteen years old and doing a fucking

1068
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:13,919
Speaker 1: seance with my three dude friends and we said, if

1069
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: there's a ghost to your show yourself and then the

1070
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: CD player opened. It was like the best moment of

1071
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: my entire life, right, and it was so exciting. And

1072
00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 1: then my friend holds up a remote red face and

1073
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: he's like, sorry, guys, and then it was like I

1074
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 1: crashed so hard, but I wanted that to be real

1075
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: so badly, because like that would prove I mean, a

1076
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: world without magic boring. It sucks you boring. Yeah yeah,

1077
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: yeah yeah. Well anyway, guys, more interesting conversation next week.

1078
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 4: We can't wait to talk to you.

1079
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 2: Then, remember this week to follow your gut, watch out

1080
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 2: for red flags, and never ever trust me really