1 00:00:15,304 --> 00:00:15,824 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:20,424 --> 00:00:22,904 Speaker 2: I'm Michael Schulman, and I wrote Ballad of the Oscar 3 00:00:22,944 --> 00:00:25,264 Speaker 2: Streaker for The New Yorker and it's the story of 4 00:00:25,264 --> 00:00:25,624 Speaker 2: the Week. 5 00:00:26,904 --> 00:00:29,824 Speaker 1: Five weeks before the two thousand and nine Oscars, I 6 00:00:29,864 --> 00:00:33,664 Speaker 1: got a call from Hugh Jackman's producer. Jackman was hosting 7 00:00:33,704 --> 00:00:35,984 Speaker 1: the show and he wanted to know if I would 8 00:00:36,024 --> 00:00:38,904 Speaker 1: be one of the show's writers. Like so many things 9 00:00:38,904 --> 00:00:41,664 Speaker 1: in my career, I figured somebody just made some kind 10 00:00:41,664 --> 00:00:44,944 Speaker 1: of mistake. I figured I was just a last minute 11 00:00:44,984 --> 00:00:48,744 Speaker 1: addition to a huge group of talented variety show writers. 12 00:00:49,384 --> 00:00:51,424 Speaker 1: So I flew to New York City, where we went 13 00:00:51,464 --> 00:00:53,544 Speaker 1: to work out of a conference room at the Mandarin 14 00:00:53,584 --> 00:00:58,264 Speaker 1: Oriental Hotel. When I walked in, I saw just three 15 00:00:58,344 --> 00:01:01,984 Speaker 1: other guys, all my age, all of whom were hired 16 00:01:02,104 --> 00:01:05,184 Speaker 1: the same week that I was. There was no head writer. 17 00:01:05,504 --> 00:01:07,864 Speaker 1: There wasn't even a whiteboard. It was just the four 18 00:01:07,904 --> 00:01:11,704 Speaker 1: of us looking at our computer. It was bizarrely casual. 19 00:01:12,504 --> 00:01:14,624 Speaker 1: In fact, we spent most of our time trying to 20 00:01:14,664 --> 00:01:17,184 Speaker 1: figure out how much room service we could order without 21 00:01:17,184 --> 00:01:20,064 Speaker 1: getting in trouble. Hugh Jackman would come in for a 22 00:01:20,104 --> 00:01:22,544 Speaker 1: couple of hours each day, telling us how great our 23 00:01:22,584 --> 00:01:25,264 Speaker 1: ideas were and hugging us and letting us try on 24 00:01:25,344 --> 00:01:29,864 Speaker 1: his eighteen thousand dollars plastic wolverine clause. What I learned 25 00:01:30,024 --> 00:01:32,824 Speaker 1: is that even though it's the highest rated entertainment show 26 00:01:32,864 --> 00:01:37,064 Speaker 1: of the year, the Oscars is a pretty thrown together operation. 27 00:01:38,344 --> 00:01:41,064 Speaker 1: I've written for sitcoms that you've never heard of, and 28 00:01:41,104 --> 00:01:45,504 Speaker 1: we got way more notes and time and money to 29 00:01:45,584 --> 00:01:50,104 Speaker 1: make those shows. So I'm never surprised when chaos ensues 30 00:01:50,144 --> 00:01:53,224 Speaker 1: at the Oscars, whether it's announcing La La Land instead 31 00:01:53,264 --> 00:01:57,104 Speaker 1: of Moonlight as Best Picture, Will Smith slapping Chris Rock, 32 00:01:57,624 --> 00:02:08,944 Speaker 1: or my very favorite, the nineteen seventy four Streaker. Writing 33 00:02:09,224 --> 00:02:09,624 Speaker 1: is hard. 34 00:02:09,824 --> 00:02:13,144 Speaker 3: Who's got that kind of time when you're already busy 35 00:02:13,224 --> 00:02:15,904 Speaker 3: trying to dig all stand So it turns on a 36 00:02:16,064 --> 00:02:20,024 Speaker 3: Mike made the twitles enough because a journalist friend has 37 00:02:20,024 --> 00:02:25,184 Speaker 3: got in that jewel jibes. Single story Just listen to 38 00:02:25,264 --> 00:02:32,184 Speaker 3: smart people speak, conversation, film and information is the story of. 39 00:02:41,664 --> 00:02:44,864 Speaker 1: With the Oscars coming up this weekend, I figure how 40 00:02:44,904 --> 00:02:47,584 Speaker 1: better to cover the awards than to dive into the 41 00:02:47,624 --> 00:02:51,424 Speaker 1: best thing that's ever happened at them. In nineteen seventy four, 42 00:02:51,704 --> 00:02:54,424 Speaker 1: a man ran across the stage at the Academy Awards 43 00:02:54,944 --> 00:02:58,664 Speaker 1: butt naked. That was the last that most people heard 44 00:02:58,704 --> 00:03:01,224 Speaker 1: of him. But it turns out that was only the 45 00:03:01,264 --> 00:03:05,344 Speaker 1: beginning of a much weirder story. The guy who streaked 46 00:03:05,344 --> 00:03:09,064 Speaker 1: the Oscars was a former Ronald Reagan's speech writer turned 47 00:03:09,344 --> 00:03:13,464 Speaker 1: into this kind of gay liberation performance artist. He was 48 00:03:13,544 --> 00:03:16,344 Speaker 1: like the Zelig of the history of gay rights, popping 49 00:03:16,424 --> 00:03:18,904 Speaker 1: up at the murder of Harvey Milk, hanging out with 50 00:03:18,984 --> 00:03:23,344 Speaker 1: Robert Maplethorpe and interviewing John Waters. He lived a life 51 00:03:23,344 --> 00:03:28,424 Speaker 1: full of stunts, pranks, and pornography until one money making 52 00:03:28,464 --> 00:03:33,544 Speaker 1: scheme ultimately led to his death. Michael Shulman wrote about 53 00:03:33,584 --> 00:03:36,504 Speaker 1: all this for The New Yorker. Michael, thank you for 54 00:03:36,624 --> 00:03:39,904 Speaker 1: coming on and telling us about this crazy story. 55 00:03:40,464 --> 00:03:41,264 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. 56 00:03:41,544 --> 00:03:44,384 Speaker 1: It was nineteen seventy four, which is pretty much It's 57 00:03:44,424 --> 00:03:47,904 Speaker 1: an inflection point in society, right, like the Vietnam War 58 00:03:48,064 --> 00:03:49,824 Speaker 1: had ended the year earlier. 59 00:03:50,144 --> 00:03:55,024 Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, it was a very unstable, strange, slightly unhinged, 60 00:03:55,024 --> 00:03:57,784 Speaker 2: and electric moment in American life. 61 00:03:57,464 --> 00:03:59,944 Speaker 1: And the Oscars kind of reflect that, right. They've got 62 00:04:00,544 --> 00:04:03,024 Speaker 1: like two cool hosts and two old school hosts. They 63 00:04:03,024 --> 00:04:06,544 Speaker 1: have four people hosting and one of them is David Niven. 64 00:04:06,864 --> 00:04:09,864 Speaker 1: So this is like an old school British actor. 65 00:04:10,104 --> 00:04:12,384 Speaker 2: Yes, a very dry wit. 66 00:04:12,744 --> 00:04:15,424 Speaker 4: And now to diverge the contents. So this year's most 67 00:04:15,464 --> 00:04:20,344 Speaker 4: important envelope is a very important contributor to world entertainment. 68 00:04:20,504 --> 00:04:23,064 Speaker 1: So it's the end of the Oscars night and they 69 00:04:23,064 --> 00:04:26,664 Speaker 1: are about to injuries Elizabeth Tilword to give the best 70 00:04:26,664 --> 00:04:30,984 Speaker 1: picture Oscar when this sort of amazing thing happens out 71 00:04:31,024 --> 00:04:31,504 Speaker 1: of nowhere. 72 00:04:31,624 --> 00:04:33,864 Speaker 2: Right, So David Niven is gearing up to bring on 73 00:04:33,904 --> 00:04:39,424 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Taylor and behind him, all of a sudden, a 74 00:04:39,744 --> 00:04:45,184 Speaker 2: thirty something year old man runs across the stage, totally. 75 00:04:44,984 --> 00:04:48,984 Speaker 1: Nude, but he's so casual and calm about it. He 76 00:04:49,144 --> 00:04:51,104 Speaker 1: just looks like he was supposed to be there. He 77 00:04:51,184 --> 00:04:53,184 Speaker 1: kind of just seems to know where the camera is, 78 00:04:53,704 --> 00:04:56,224 Speaker 1: flashes the peace sign. He just seems so cool. 79 00:04:56,504 --> 00:05:00,824 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then he's gone. David Niven did not exactly 80 00:05:00,864 --> 00:05:02,664 Speaker 2: know what was happening at first, and you kind of 81 00:05:02,664 --> 00:05:05,864 Speaker 2: see him react and figure out how to play this 82 00:05:06,024 --> 00:05:09,864 Speaker 2: moment because the audience is rumbling and I'm not sure 83 00:05:09,864 --> 00:05:11,624 Speaker 2: what to do. Sort of nervous laughter. 84 00:05:12,064 --> 00:05:15,264 Speaker 1: The band plays, which is an odd reaction, like it's 85 00:05:15,304 --> 00:05:18,704 Speaker 1: a parade, and everyone applauds. It's a very odd reactor. 86 00:05:26,384 --> 00:05:29,224 Speaker 2: Yeah, weird energy and it's sort of awkward. And then 87 00:05:29,464 --> 00:05:33,744 Speaker 2: David Niven, to his credit, immediately gets the energy and 88 00:05:33,744 --> 00:05:36,984 Speaker 2: focus back in the room by saying two things. He says, 89 00:05:37,024 --> 00:05:39,584 Speaker 2: first of all, ladies and gentlemen, that was almost bound 90 00:05:39,624 --> 00:05:42,064 Speaker 2: to happen, and so that gets people laughing. 91 00:05:42,464 --> 00:05:44,584 Speaker 1: And it was bound to happen because it was nineteen 92 00:05:44,584 --> 00:05:46,824 Speaker 1: seventy four was like the year of the streaker, right, 93 00:05:46,824 --> 00:05:47,624 Speaker 1: they were everywhere. 94 00:05:47,664 --> 00:05:50,184 Speaker 2: It was true, it was almost bound to happen because 95 00:05:50,384 --> 00:05:53,344 Speaker 2: streaking had been such a popular fad and had gotten 96 00:05:53,664 --> 00:05:56,624 Speaker 2: bigger and bigger, bigger. It had started several months earlier 97 00:05:57,064 --> 00:06:00,184 Speaker 2: with like a housewife running through the valley and then 98 00:06:00,304 --> 00:06:00,824 Speaker 2: suddenly they. 99 00:06:00,784 --> 00:06:04,144 Speaker 1: Were well that's how streaking starts. Yeah what, yeah, there 100 00:06:04,224 --> 00:06:06,064 Speaker 1: was I figured it was like college kids. 101 00:06:06,584 --> 00:06:10,384 Speaker 2: Well it became a major college kid fad, like, you know, 102 00:06:10,584 --> 00:06:14,224 Speaker 2: the entire student body of the University of Georgia had 103 00:06:14,264 --> 00:06:17,264 Speaker 2: fifteen hundred and forty three people streak across campus, and 104 00:06:17,264 --> 00:06:20,744 Speaker 2: then people were streaking football games. It was infectious. Streaking 105 00:06:20,864 --> 00:06:23,064 Speaker 2: was just a thing that people did, but only for 106 00:06:23,224 --> 00:06:25,984 Speaker 2: like six months, and so by the time he got 107 00:06:25,984 --> 00:06:29,024 Speaker 2: to the Oscars in April nineteen seventy four, it had 108 00:06:29,064 --> 00:06:31,784 Speaker 2: been going on for a couple months and people actually 109 00:06:32,184 --> 00:06:34,784 Speaker 2: sort of expected that someone might try to streak the Oscars. 110 00:06:34,944 --> 00:06:38,024 Speaker 2: So when David Niven says this was almost bound to happen, 111 00:06:39,024 --> 00:06:41,664 Speaker 2: that wasn't just a line like that was kind of true. 112 00:06:42,384 --> 00:06:45,344 Speaker 2: So that gets people laughing, and then he pauses a 113 00:06:45,384 --> 00:06:47,784 Speaker 2: moment and then has this perfect one liner. 114 00:06:48,024 --> 00:06:50,744 Speaker 4: Probably the only laugh that man will ever get in 115 00:06:50,784 --> 00:06:53,344 Speaker 4: his life was by stripping off and showing his shortcomings. 116 00:06:56,304 --> 00:06:58,464 Speaker 1: Addicta well done. 117 00:06:58,304 --> 00:07:01,224 Speaker 2: Incredible, and that just gets everyone back. And it's this 118 00:07:01,704 --> 00:07:02,304 Speaker 2: perfect save. 119 00:07:02,984 --> 00:07:05,424 Speaker 1: And did people at home actually see his penis? 120 00:07:06,424 --> 00:07:10,464 Speaker 2: The cameras managed to avoid, you know, oh the sweet spot. 121 00:07:10,624 --> 00:07:12,504 Speaker 2: So yeah, that was some quick thinking. 122 00:07:13,384 --> 00:07:16,024 Speaker 1: How did this guy pull it off? This sounds like 123 00:07:16,024 --> 00:07:20,384 Speaker 1: an impossible thing. Actually spent an Oscar's backstage once the 124 00:07:20,424 --> 00:07:24,064 Speaker 1: Oscars had me like live blog or something, and I 125 00:07:24,104 --> 00:07:26,984 Speaker 1: was on the wings. It's pretty well regulated back there, Like, 126 00:07:27,024 --> 00:07:28,584 Speaker 1: I don't see how it is now. 127 00:07:28,704 --> 00:07:30,744 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm sure, I'm sure the streak had them 128 00:07:30,784 --> 00:07:35,024 Speaker 2: tighten the security. But basically he got it press pass 129 00:07:35,144 --> 00:07:40,104 Speaker 2: from a friend. He came in and he sneaked backstage. 130 00:07:40,664 --> 00:07:43,744 Speaker 2: He later said that he was so nervous about all 131 00:07:43,744 --> 00:07:46,104 Speaker 2: the wires he thought he was going to get electrocuted, 132 00:07:46,144 --> 00:07:48,544 Speaker 2: but he waited because he wanted to wait until the 133 00:07:48,584 --> 00:07:51,944 Speaker 2: final envelope. And then when the time came, he took 134 00:07:51,944 --> 00:07:56,744 Speaker 2: off his clothes and he broke through the cyclorama, you know, 135 00:07:56,824 --> 00:07:58,984 Speaker 2: the psych that was part of the set, and he 136 00:07:59,224 --> 00:08:01,104 Speaker 2: just ran across the stage and then he was on 137 00:08:01,144 --> 00:08:02,744 Speaker 2: the other side of the stage, and he thought he 138 00:08:02,824 --> 00:08:05,824 Speaker 2: was going to be apprehended by security guards, but instead 139 00:08:06,664 --> 00:08:09,784 Speaker 2: the academy press people found him and brought him to 140 00:08:09,784 --> 00:08:11,464 Speaker 2: the press room to do interviews. 141 00:08:13,904 --> 00:08:16,584 Speaker 1: So their immediate reaction was, let's hear more from this guy. 142 00:08:16,984 --> 00:08:18,344 Speaker 2: Yeah, we want to know more. 143 00:08:18,944 --> 00:08:21,424 Speaker 1: Who are well, that's so he never got arrested or 144 00:08:21,464 --> 00:08:25,184 Speaker 1: in any trouble for this, Nope? And who is he 145 00:08:25,704 --> 00:08:26,744 Speaker 1: and why is he doing this? 146 00:08:27,264 --> 00:08:31,144 Speaker 2: So the streaker's name was Robert Opple. He was a 147 00:08:31,264 --> 00:08:35,504 Speaker 2: kind of gay man about town and sort of wild child. 148 00:08:35,944 --> 00:08:39,504 Speaker 1: He has an interesting life that led him to that moment, right, 149 00:08:39,504 --> 00:08:42,984 Speaker 1: because he grows up conservative right right? 150 00:08:43,144 --> 00:08:46,824 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, he had a very suburban, middle class family. 151 00:08:47,344 --> 00:08:49,744 Speaker 2: He was in the boy Scouts. 152 00:08:49,464 --> 00:08:51,104 Speaker 1: Not just in the Boy Scouts you report that he 153 00:08:51,184 --> 00:08:53,184 Speaker 1: was an Eagle Scout, and then he did Order of 154 00:08:53,224 --> 00:08:56,664 Speaker 1: the Arrow, which is like for the like one percent 155 00:08:56,664 --> 00:08:58,544 Speaker 1: of people who love the Boy Scouts so much, you. 156 00:08:58,664 --> 00:09:00,104 Speaker 2: Seem to know more of the Boy Scouts than I do. 157 00:09:00,184 --> 00:09:01,944 Speaker 2: I've never touched the Boy Scouts. 158 00:09:01,584 --> 00:09:03,944 Speaker 1: But you should not touch Boy Scouts. That's been a 159 00:09:03,944 --> 00:09:06,984 Speaker 1: whole problem. But I for my first book where I 160 00:09:07,024 --> 00:09:08,584 Speaker 1: tried to learn how to be a man to raise 161 00:09:08,584 --> 00:09:10,904 Speaker 1: my son, I had never done the Boy Scouts because 162 00:09:10,904 --> 00:09:12,824 Speaker 1: my mom thought it was a fascist organization. So I 163 00:09:12,904 --> 00:09:15,424 Speaker 1: went and got my first badge into a sleepover with 164 00:09:15,464 --> 00:09:18,264 Speaker 1: the Boy Scouts, where I learned about all this. Wow. 165 00:09:18,784 --> 00:09:21,264 Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean he was this straight a student 166 00:09:21,304 --> 00:09:24,384 Speaker 2: is overachiever, Robert ople you know, he was the student 167 00:09:24,424 --> 00:09:26,984 Speaker 2: body president and all that kind of stuff. He tried 168 00:09:27,024 --> 00:09:30,664 Speaker 2: to join the Peace Corps and teach teach English in 169 00:09:30,864 --> 00:09:34,904 Speaker 2: Thailand and he studied Thai and he was about to 170 00:09:34,944 --> 00:09:38,304 Speaker 2: go and then the Peace Corps basically kicked him out 171 00:09:38,344 --> 00:09:39,424 Speaker 2: because he was gay. 172 00:09:39,984 --> 00:09:41,584 Speaker 1: And then what year is that? 173 00:09:41,904 --> 00:09:44,984 Speaker 2: Basically that's like mid sixties, early in the mid sixties. 174 00:09:45,024 --> 00:09:49,984 Speaker 2: And then he wound up working for Reagan's gubernatorial campaign 175 00:09:49,984 --> 00:09:53,664 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty six, which was obviously a very conservative campaign, 176 00:09:54,184 --> 00:09:57,024 Speaker 2: but he was fired because he was gay. Again, there 177 00:09:57,064 --> 00:09:59,664 Speaker 2: was a press leak that said that there were homosexuals 178 00:09:59,704 --> 00:10:01,944 Speaker 2: in this campaign and they got rid of him. So 179 00:10:01,984 --> 00:10:04,984 Speaker 2: he was what was he doing for speech writing? He 180 00:10:05,064 --> 00:10:08,984 Speaker 2: was a really smart, like straight laced, straight and narrow 181 00:10:09,224 --> 00:10:14,424 Speaker 2: kind of guy. And then after nineteen sixty six he 182 00:10:14,504 --> 00:10:17,824 Speaker 2: was transformed by the hippie movement, the sexual Revolution, and 183 00:10:17,864 --> 00:10:22,464 Speaker 2: he emerged in the early seventies as this hippie, wild child, 184 00:10:22,584 --> 00:10:23,184 Speaker 2: crazy man. 185 00:10:23,704 --> 00:10:26,824 Speaker 1: Do you think that's because he got kicked out of 186 00:10:26,864 --> 00:10:29,384 Speaker 1: the conservative world for being gay and this was the 187 00:10:29,424 --> 00:10:30,864 Speaker 1: only world that was available to him. 188 00:10:31,024 --> 00:10:33,384 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so, because he obviously was on this 189 00:10:33,464 --> 00:10:37,544 Speaker 2: conservative path and was just shut out of that world 190 00:10:37,624 --> 00:10:39,664 Speaker 2: over and every end. But also the times changed in 191 00:10:39,744 --> 00:10:42,624 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine, there was of course Stone Wall, which 192 00:10:42,824 --> 00:10:45,824 Speaker 2: really changed when it meant to be gay, and he 193 00:10:46,024 --> 00:10:48,904 Speaker 2: sort of found his place in this new gay liberation movement. 194 00:10:49,864 --> 00:10:53,944 Speaker 1: What Maakeson decided to do this streaking bit at the oscars. 195 00:10:53,504 --> 00:10:56,624 Speaker 2: Well, at the time he said, it just occurred to 196 00:10:56,624 --> 00:10:58,664 Speaker 2: me that it might be an educative thing to do. 197 00:10:59,064 --> 00:11:02,064 Speaker 2: You know, people shouldn't be ashamed of being nude in public. Besides, 198 00:11:02,104 --> 00:11:03,704 Speaker 2: it's a hell of a way to launch a career. 199 00:11:03,944 --> 00:11:05,584 Speaker 1: Yeah, that last part sounds like the truth. 200 00:11:05,824 --> 00:11:07,704 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean yeah, he was a little bit of 201 00:11:07,664 --> 00:11:10,264 Speaker 2: attention seeker, you know, to show up at like the 202 00:11:10,344 --> 00:11:13,264 Speaker 2: Gay Liberation March is dressed as a character named mister 203 00:11:13,344 --> 00:11:16,504 Speaker 2: Penis who was supposed to be a cousin of mister Peanuts. 204 00:11:17,344 --> 00:11:18,664 Speaker 1: Was it like a Penis with a monocle? 205 00:11:19,144 --> 00:11:21,024 Speaker 2: Yeah, just like a giant penis costume. 206 00:11:21,224 --> 00:11:23,904 Speaker 1: And then after he streaks, he gets fired from his job. 207 00:11:23,904 --> 00:11:27,944 Speaker 1: He's working for the Los Angeles Unified School District as 208 00:11:28,544 --> 00:11:31,584 Speaker 1: helping to figure out ways to teach English to kids 209 00:11:31,584 --> 00:11:34,704 Speaker 1: who come to LA without speaking English. They fire him 210 00:11:34,744 --> 00:11:35,264 Speaker 1: for streaking. 211 00:11:35,384 --> 00:11:37,984 Speaker 2: They immediately were like, your services are no longer needed. 212 00:11:39,664 --> 00:11:42,784 Speaker 2: But he managed to hang on to his fifteen minutes 213 00:11:42,824 --> 00:11:45,584 Speaker 2: of fame and suddenly everyone in Hollywood was really interested 214 00:11:45,624 --> 00:11:47,464 Speaker 2: in him. He went on the Mike Douglas Show, he 215 00:11:47,504 --> 00:11:50,104 Speaker 2: did a comedy show in Philadelphia, like a stand up 216 00:11:50,104 --> 00:11:51,944 Speaker 2: show where someone streaked him. 217 00:11:52,264 --> 00:11:54,944 Speaker 1: Oh so someone showed up at his event to streak him. 218 00:11:55,184 --> 00:11:57,464 Speaker 2: Yeah, but he kind of what I love about Robert 219 00:11:57,504 --> 00:12:02,264 Speaker 2: ople Is that he was really funny, Like, right after 220 00:12:02,304 --> 00:12:05,824 Speaker 2: this happened, he launched a sort of fake campaign for president, 221 00:12:05,904 --> 00:12:07,624 Speaker 2: and this was, of course at the same time that 222 00:12:07,664 --> 00:12:10,784 Speaker 2: Watergate was all going down. He created his own party 223 00:12:10,824 --> 00:12:15,864 Speaker 2: called the Nude Lib Party, and his platform was total transparency, 224 00:12:16,584 --> 00:12:20,064 Speaker 2: and his campaign slogan was not just another crooked dick 225 00:12:20,464 --> 00:12:23,704 Speaker 2: nice So he was like he was pure comedy, but 226 00:12:23,904 --> 00:12:27,664 Speaker 2: he really also had a sincere belief that nudity should 227 00:12:27,704 --> 00:12:31,504 Speaker 2: not be shameful, and that sexuality should not be shameful, 228 00:12:31,664 --> 00:12:35,344 Speaker 2: and that the way to dispel the shame was to 229 00:12:35,384 --> 00:12:36,304 Speaker 2: take off your clothes. 230 00:12:36,824 --> 00:12:41,624 Speaker 1: So he's living in LA and he's got a nemesis 231 00:12:41,664 --> 00:12:45,824 Speaker 1: in LA. The LA Police Chief At Davis, that's right. 232 00:12:45,864 --> 00:12:48,784 Speaker 2: I mean At Davis was a real homophobe. You know, 233 00:12:48,864 --> 00:12:53,104 Speaker 2: the police were really constantly cracking down on you know, homosexuals, 234 00:12:53,144 --> 00:12:55,824 Speaker 2: and there was a wisconstant harassment in LA for the 235 00:12:55,864 --> 00:13:00,024 Speaker 2: gay community there. So not long after the Oscar streak, 236 00:13:00,384 --> 00:13:03,144 Speaker 2: there was this LA City Council meeting to discuss whether 237 00:13:03,144 --> 00:13:05,984 Speaker 2: they should put a ban on nudity and the public areas, 238 00:13:06,064 --> 00:13:10,864 Speaker 2: and Robert Opal showed up again nude walked right up 239 00:13:10,944 --> 00:13:14,064 Speaker 2: to police chief Davis held up a peace sign again 240 00:13:14,184 --> 00:13:15,784 Speaker 2: and asked, is this leude? 241 00:13:16,144 --> 00:13:17,144 Speaker 1: But he went to jail for this. 242 00:13:17,544 --> 00:13:19,224 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was sentenced to four months. 243 00:13:19,984 --> 00:13:22,544 Speaker 1: He did four months in jail for taking off his 244 00:13:22,584 --> 00:13:25,384 Speaker 1: clothes at the La City Council and zero for being 245 00:13:25,464 --> 00:13:27,904 Speaker 1: naked to the oscars. Four months in jail seems like 246 00:13:27,944 --> 00:13:28,344 Speaker 1: a lot. 247 00:13:28,384 --> 00:13:30,984 Speaker 2: Well, don't mess with police Chief Ed Davis in nineteen 248 00:13:31,064 --> 00:13:31,824 Speaker 2: seventy four. 249 00:13:32,184 --> 00:13:34,264 Speaker 1: And then he runs your city council in La right. 250 00:13:34,344 --> 00:13:37,024 Speaker 2: Yeah, when his presidential bit did not work out well, 251 00:13:37,064 --> 00:13:39,224 Speaker 2: he started a writing campaign for city council. It was 252 00:13:39,264 --> 00:13:44,104 Speaker 2: sponsored by a committee called FAGS for Unseating Civic Knuckleheads. 253 00:13:44,544 --> 00:13:46,744 Speaker 2: Take the first letter of each one of those words 254 00:13:46,784 --> 00:13:51,384 Speaker 2: and you get fuck. And mostly was trying to remove 255 00:13:51,464 --> 00:13:52,664 Speaker 2: Ed Davis from office. 256 00:13:53,064 --> 00:13:57,464 Speaker 1: And then while he's running, he somehow gets arrested again. 257 00:13:57,904 --> 00:14:01,504 Speaker 2: So he showed up to the Christopher Street West Parade, 258 00:14:01,504 --> 00:14:03,904 Speaker 2: which is basically the gay Pride Parade from that time, 259 00:14:04,344 --> 00:14:08,864 Speaker 2: dressed as mister Penis. So there was some disagreement within 260 00:14:08,904 --> 00:14:11,744 Speaker 2: the parade committee about whether they wanted this kind of thing, 261 00:14:12,304 --> 00:14:15,824 Speaker 2: and the gay movement then as now really was sort 262 00:14:15,824 --> 00:14:21,544 Speaker 2: of caught between conformity and assimilation. And seeming respectable and 263 00:14:21,824 --> 00:14:26,584 Speaker 2: undermining heteronormative standards. And obviously Opel did not care about 264 00:14:26,784 --> 00:14:29,064 Speaker 2: good behavior or respectability, and so he shows up as 265 00:14:29,624 --> 00:14:32,384 Speaker 2: this penis character and the parade ejected him and he 266 00:14:32,464 --> 00:14:34,544 Speaker 2: was handcuffed and just spent a few hours in jail. 267 00:14:34,904 --> 00:14:39,784 Speaker 1: Right, there's this rift in the gay community, like you said, 268 00:14:39,824 --> 00:14:43,384 Speaker 1: exists now between do we fight for acceptability or do 269 00:14:43,464 --> 00:14:45,704 Speaker 1: we let our freak flag fly? 270 00:14:46,144 --> 00:14:49,904 Speaker 2: Oh exactly. I mean that's that's been a perennial tension 271 00:14:50,264 --> 00:14:55,184 Speaker 2: within those queer rights going up through gay marriage, like 272 00:14:55,264 --> 00:14:57,464 Speaker 2: do we want marriage? Do we want to partake in 273 00:14:57,464 --> 00:15:00,824 Speaker 2: the institution of marriage like everyone else? Or is marriage 274 00:15:00,904 --> 00:15:04,264 Speaker 2: to heteronormative and you know, but do we want to 275 00:15:04,304 --> 00:15:08,424 Speaker 2: maintain a kind of separatism and a more radical lifestyle? 276 00:15:08,464 --> 00:15:09,824 Speaker 2: You know, I think it was it was that same 277 00:15:09,944 --> 00:15:12,144 Speaker 2: kind of tension, but the mid seventies version of it. 278 00:15:12,984 --> 00:15:16,304 Speaker 1: So he's sort of famous now from the streaking and 279 00:15:16,344 --> 00:15:18,864 Speaker 1: he's made the most of it. And then he becomes 280 00:15:18,944 --> 00:15:22,224 Speaker 1: the editor of a gay porn magazine in Los Angeles. 281 00:15:22,704 --> 00:15:23,784 Speaker 1: How does that go for him? 282 00:15:23,944 --> 00:15:26,464 Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, this magazine is called Finger. And when I 283 00:15:26,504 --> 00:15:29,024 Speaker 2: was researching this story, I was in San Francisco at 284 00:15:29,144 --> 00:15:35,424 Speaker 2: the GLBT Historical Center there, and I found copies of Finger, 285 00:15:35,824 --> 00:15:41,584 Speaker 2: which is very raunchy. It's like straight up to total smut. 286 00:15:41,704 --> 00:15:43,664 Speaker 2: But there was the thing that I found in these 287 00:15:43,744 --> 00:15:48,624 Speaker 2: archives that was like a total gem is that in 288 00:15:48,664 --> 00:15:52,104 Speaker 2: one of these issues of Finger, he wrote an editor's letter, 289 00:15:52,384 --> 00:15:56,504 Speaker 2: like a welcome letter, that was basically his manifesto of nudity. 290 00:15:57,224 --> 00:16:00,544 Speaker 2: So he said, the thrust of my messages undress. As 291 00:16:00,584 --> 00:16:03,264 Speaker 2: long as cover up is part of anyone's mental set, 292 00:16:03,424 --> 00:16:05,344 Speaker 2: he or she will be diminished in his efforts to 293 00:16:05,384 --> 00:16:09,424 Speaker 2: be totally self actualized. Undressed goes far beyond simply urging 294 00:16:09,464 --> 00:16:12,464 Speaker 2: one to remove the clothes from one's physical person, but 295 00:16:12,584 --> 00:16:15,824 Speaker 2: that can be a start, a visual statement of innocence, 296 00:16:16,064 --> 00:16:19,824 Speaker 2: an external sign of one's intent to exorcise hypocrisy. 297 00:16:21,784 --> 00:16:25,184 Speaker 1: So he's a real believer in nudity in addition to 298 00:16:25,904 --> 00:16:26,424 Speaker 1: the gay. 299 00:16:26,304 --> 00:16:31,544 Speaker 2: Rights stuff, yeah, and a believer in sexuality, that human 300 00:16:31,584 --> 00:16:34,064 Speaker 2: sexuality should not be shame. He goes on in that 301 00:16:34,784 --> 00:16:38,064 Speaker 2: editorial to write more about Catholicism, and I think you 302 00:16:38,104 --> 00:16:41,584 Speaker 2: see some of his conservative upbringing coming through in his 303 00:16:41,624 --> 00:16:44,544 Speaker 2: sense of rebellion against kind of Catholic morality. 304 00:16:45,144 --> 00:16:47,984 Speaker 1: And so he's worked. Why is it called finger the magazine? 305 00:16:48,424 --> 00:16:51,184 Speaker 2: Why wouldn't it be is your magination? 306 00:16:52,984 --> 00:16:55,384 Speaker 1: Well, the next gay magazine works for it's called Drummer, 307 00:16:55,464 --> 00:16:57,424 Speaker 1: which I figured is some other gays slining term. I 308 00:16:57,424 --> 00:17:00,224 Speaker 1: don't know, Yeah, I don't. 309 00:17:00,024 --> 00:17:02,384 Speaker 2: Know why it is called Drummer, but Drummer was it 310 00:17:02,464 --> 00:17:04,784 Speaker 2: was like the Bible of like gay s and m. 311 00:17:04,904 --> 00:17:08,464 Speaker 2: It is a leather magazine and he was writing about 312 00:17:08,504 --> 00:17:13,224 Speaker 2: like the cycle sluts, which were leather men on motorcycles. 313 00:17:13,744 --> 00:17:18,144 Speaker 1: And then the magazine gets rated by nemesis Ed Davis 314 00:17:18,624 --> 00:17:19,184 Speaker 1: at some point. 315 00:17:19,224 --> 00:17:22,784 Speaker 2: Right, Yes, that's right. So the LAPD was really harassing 316 00:17:23,184 --> 00:17:26,384 Speaker 2: the people a Drummer and they actually held a charity 317 00:17:26,504 --> 00:17:31,064 Speaker 2: SMM slave auction, and police Chief Davis tried to prosecute 318 00:17:31,104 --> 00:17:32,584 Speaker 2: the publishers on charges. 319 00:17:32,264 --> 00:17:34,824 Speaker 1: Of slavery, oh, of actual slave. 320 00:17:34,984 --> 00:17:37,504 Speaker 2: Slavery, like, oh, you're having a slave auction. Slavery is 321 00:17:37,584 --> 00:17:38,344 Speaker 2: against the law. 322 00:17:39,664 --> 00:17:40,424 Speaker 1: Did that work? 323 00:17:41,064 --> 00:17:44,504 Speaker 2: No, of course, it's it's ridiculous, but it did sort 324 00:17:44,504 --> 00:17:48,224 Speaker 2: of harass the magazine out of la and they moved 325 00:17:48,224 --> 00:17:51,264 Speaker 2: their operations to San Francisco. And that's part of the 326 00:17:51,304 --> 00:17:53,864 Speaker 2: reason why Robert ople himself moved to San Francisco. 327 00:17:57,024 --> 00:18:00,184 Speaker 1: In San Francisco, Robert ople would reinvent himself as an 328 00:18:00,304 --> 00:18:04,384 Speaker 1: art gallery owner and connoisseur of gay photography, rubbing shoulders 329 00:18:04,384 --> 00:18:09,184 Speaker 1: with Robert Maplethorpe, John Waters, even Harvey Milk until well, 330 00:18:09,784 --> 00:18:13,744 Speaker 1: he rubbed shoulders with the wrong guy, which is podcast 331 00:18:13,824 --> 00:18:19,304 Speaker 1: speak for murder. But first, our advertisers want to sell 332 00:18:19,344 --> 00:18:23,464 Speaker 1: you a very fine artist in leather harness. I'm just kidding. 333 00:18:23,784 --> 00:18:33,824 Speaker 1: It's probably Meandes. Just three years after he streaked the Oscars, 334 00:18:34,304 --> 00:18:37,704 Speaker 1: Robert Opole's basically been run out of Los Angeles, and 335 00:18:37,744 --> 00:18:40,824 Speaker 1: he finds a place where everyone and their hardcore porn 336 00:18:40,864 --> 00:18:45,464 Speaker 1: magazines are welcome. Yeah, if you had any means to 337 00:18:45,624 --> 00:18:48,144 Speaker 1: move from wherever you were and you were gay, you 338 00:18:48,224 --> 00:18:50,344 Speaker 1: went to San Francisco in the seventies. 339 00:18:49,984 --> 00:18:52,864 Speaker 2: Right absolutely, And this is where we get the explosion 340 00:18:52,904 --> 00:18:55,624 Speaker 2: of the Castro. Droves of people were coming from around 341 00:18:55,664 --> 00:18:57,984 Speaker 2: the country, and gay people from around the country were 342 00:18:57,984 --> 00:19:00,824 Speaker 2: coming from their little towns and going to the Castro 343 00:19:00,904 --> 00:19:03,424 Speaker 2: because they knew that in San Francisco they could be 344 00:19:03,464 --> 00:19:04,744 Speaker 2: themselves and have a community. 345 00:19:05,184 --> 00:19:07,784 Speaker 1: Even in the early nineties, when I was in college 346 00:19:07,784 --> 00:19:09,984 Speaker 1: at the Bay Area, we would I fy the Castro 347 00:19:10,104 --> 00:19:12,704 Speaker 1: and it was it was scary as hell. It was 348 00:19:12,744 --> 00:19:17,184 Speaker 1: like Pete Townsend's rough boys, gay like leather. It just 349 00:19:17,224 --> 00:19:19,904 Speaker 1: felt like everyone was looking to fuck or fight like 350 00:19:19,944 --> 00:19:21,144 Speaker 1: it just scared the hell out of me. 351 00:19:21,224 --> 00:19:23,904 Speaker 2: Well so, actually, when Robert Opple got there, he found 352 00:19:23,904 --> 00:19:26,904 Speaker 2: the even rougher gay neighborhood which was South of Market 353 00:19:26,984 --> 00:19:29,744 Speaker 2: or Soma, which was like Castro, was where the sort 354 00:19:29,744 --> 00:19:33,864 Speaker 2: of the young pretty boys were like going disco dancing. 355 00:19:34,504 --> 00:19:38,624 Speaker 2: Soma was the leather community that was like hardcore leather. 356 00:19:39,264 --> 00:19:43,024 Speaker 2: So that's where Robert ople found his place. He moved 357 00:19:43,024 --> 00:19:44,864 Speaker 2: there in nineteen seventy seven, you know, and this was 358 00:19:44,904 --> 00:19:49,504 Speaker 2: of course before the AIDS epidemic. So there was just 359 00:19:49,544 --> 00:19:53,824 Speaker 2: an aspect of hedonism and possibility and the dating scene 360 00:19:53,944 --> 00:19:56,864 Speaker 2: where you could actually find people to date if you 361 00:19:56,904 --> 00:19:59,464 Speaker 2: were a gay man, and it was a place that 362 00:19:59,584 --> 00:20:01,624 Speaker 2: was totally sexually liberated. 363 00:20:01,984 --> 00:20:04,464 Speaker 1: Yeah, you wrote in your piece about this guy Jim 364 00:20:04,504 --> 00:20:07,904 Speaker 1: Stewart who approached him with this crazy line. 365 00:20:07,984 --> 00:20:11,264 Speaker 2: Oh well, so Jim Stewart was one of the leather 366 00:20:11,344 --> 00:20:14,144 Speaker 2: man in Soma, and he he had an erotic photography 367 00:20:14,184 --> 00:20:17,344 Speaker 2: business in his apartment and he wrote a memoir called 368 00:20:17,424 --> 00:20:20,384 Speaker 2: Folsome Street Blues, where he wrote about how one day 369 00:20:20,424 --> 00:20:24,864 Speaker 2: after Robert Opele arrived, he found Ople, you know, knocking 370 00:20:24,864 --> 00:20:27,984 Speaker 2: on his door and Jim Stewart says, why do I 371 00:20:27,984 --> 00:20:31,104 Speaker 2: think I know you have we fucked? And Ople said, 372 00:20:31,184 --> 00:20:37,944 Speaker 2: I streaked the Academy Awards. 373 00:20:35,104 --> 00:20:37,944 Speaker 1: So many ways to be known in Master District at 374 00:20:37,944 --> 00:20:38,304 Speaker 1: the time. 375 00:20:38,544 --> 00:20:40,624 Speaker 2: Yeah. But the reason that he was there seeking out 376 00:20:40,704 --> 00:20:44,464 Speaker 2: Jim Stewart was because he was opening an art gallery 377 00:20:44,464 --> 00:20:47,744 Speaker 2: and erotic art gallery in South of Market called Faye 378 00:20:47,784 --> 00:20:52,784 Speaker 2: Way Studios, and he was looking for artists to display there. 379 00:20:53,664 --> 00:20:55,184 Speaker 1: Fay Way being a punt. 380 00:20:55,504 --> 00:20:58,864 Speaker 2: It's a pun on Faye Ray from you know, the 381 00:20:58,944 --> 00:21:02,264 Speaker 2: girl from King Kong Kong movies in the thirties, the actress, 382 00:21:02,944 --> 00:21:05,624 Speaker 2: but also fay f E y as in you know, 383 00:21:05,864 --> 00:21:09,664 Speaker 2: limp wristed Faye Gay stereotype. But that was right. 384 00:21:09,824 --> 00:21:12,304 Speaker 1: He was a photographer, So he is opening an art 385 00:21:12,304 --> 00:21:14,584 Speaker 1: gallery that's going to show a lot of photography, I imagine, 386 00:21:15,984 --> 00:21:18,384 Speaker 1: which is how he meets Robert Maplethorpe. 387 00:21:18,704 --> 00:21:20,224 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean so. One of the things that's so 388 00:21:20,984 --> 00:21:25,344 Speaker 2: incredible about Ople's post streaking life is that he kept 389 00:21:25,424 --> 00:21:29,704 Speaker 2: brushing shoulders with these other famous people from countercultural history, 390 00:21:29,744 --> 00:21:32,024 Speaker 2: and one of them was was Robert Maplethorpe, who was 391 00:21:32,504 --> 00:21:35,304 Speaker 2: very young and not well known at the time. He 392 00:21:35,384 --> 00:21:39,424 Speaker 2: had barely cracked California. He was really a New York 393 00:21:39,504 --> 00:21:46,984 Speaker 2: artist who was producing these homo erotic, very boundary pushing photographs, 394 00:21:47,584 --> 00:21:52,064 Speaker 2: and Ople put some of his work in Faywai Studios. 395 00:21:52,624 --> 00:21:55,304 Speaker 1: Was it one of the first places that Maplethorpe was shown. 396 00:21:55,064 --> 00:21:56,984 Speaker 2: In, certainly in California? 397 00:21:57,704 --> 00:22:00,064 Speaker 1: Wow? So Robert Ople's kind of a big deal in 398 00:22:00,104 --> 00:22:00,544 Speaker 1: this scene. 399 00:22:00,624 --> 00:22:03,744 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, this was like a storefront gallery, but 400 00:22:03,824 --> 00:22:06,424 Speaker 2: it kind of became a hot spot where people would go. 401 00:22:06,584 --> 00:22:09,344 Speaker 2: And at the time, gay art in San Francis had 402 00:22:09,384 --> 00:22:13,424 Speaker 2: mostly been shown like in restaurants, in clubs, places where 403 00:22:13,424 --> 00:22:17,264 Speaker 2: people are not necessarily looking at the art. So to 404 00:22:17,344 --> 00:22:22,984 Speaker 2: have a gallery that was dedicated to erotic, rough gay 405 00:22:23,664 --> 00:22:25,544 Speaker 2: art was pretty brown breaking. 406 00:22:25,784 --> 00:22:28,544 Speaker 1: Okay. So he's on one extreme of this gay rights 407 00:22:28,544 --> 00:22:31,784 Speaker 1: movement in San Francisco, But there's a whole other part 408 00:22:31,864 --> 00:22:33,904 Speaker 1: of the gay rights movement in San Francisco, which is 409 00:22:33,944 --> 00:22:37,704 Speaker 1: like the Harvey Milk part, which is Harvey Milk's wearing 410 00:22:37,824 --> 00:22:40,464 Speaker 1: the three piece suit and he's running for the word 411 00:22:40,504 --> 00:22:43,864 Speaker 1: of supervisors in San Francisco. What does ople think of 412 00:22:43,864 --> 00:22:44,824 Speaker 1: Harvey Milk at that point? 413 00:22:44,944 --> 00:22:47,704 Speaker 2: You know, it's really interesting because I saw Harvey Milk 414 00:22:47,784 --> 00:22:50,464 Speaker 2: is almost like a mirror image of Robert Opple, Like 415 00:22:50,464 --> 00:22:53,144 Speaker 2: they sort of had parallel past. They had both started 416 00:22:53,144 --> 00:22:57,504 Speaker 2: out in you know, sort of conservative politics and then 417 00:22:57,784 --> 00:23:01,304 Speaker 2: sort of became these wild child hippies and then wound 418 00:23:01,344 --> 00:23:04,944 Speaker 2: up in San Francisco. But whereas Opel was opening an 419 00:23:04,944 --> 00:23:08,784 Speaker 2: erotic art gallery, Harvey Milk cut his hair, got his suit, 420 00:23:09,624 --> 00:23:13,464 Speaker 2: ran for political office, and he was projecting a much 421 00:23:13,504 --> 00:23:19,104 Speaker 2: more again like respectable image of gay culture and gay 422 00:23:19,464 --> 00:23:23,744 Speaker 2: gay influence. But Robert ope was really into Harvey Milk. 423 00:23:23,784 --> 00:23:27,104 Speaker 2: And there's this one story where he actually walked into 424 00:23:27,384 --> 00:23:30,424 Speaker 2: Milk's campaign office, which was at Harvey Milk's camera shop 425 00:23:30,744 --> 00:23:35,584 Speaker 2: in the Castro, and he offered a campaign poster that 426 00:23:35,624 --> 00:23:38,184 Speaker 2: he had created, and it was a picture of a 427 00:23:38,464 --> 00:23:42,184 Speaker 2: woman with an exposed breast and she was piercing her 428 00:23:42,424 --> 00:23:46,224 Speaker 2: left breast with a pin that said Harvey Milk for Supervisor, 429 00:23:46,864 --> 00:23:49,104 Speaker 2: and he kind of left it there, like, in case 430 00:23:49,144 --> 00:23:51,464 Speaker 2: you need it, here's an idea for a campaign poster. 431 00:23:51,624 --> 00:23:54,064 Speaker 2: And of course that is absolutely the opposite of what 432 00:23:54,104 --> 00:23:57,624 Speaker 2: they wanted to project. You know, it was just pushing 433 00:23:57,624 --> 00:24:00,464 Speaker 2: that boundary, pushing that envelope. That's not what the Milk 434 00:24:00,464 --> 00:24:02,744 Speaker 2: campaign was doing. They were appealing to like the labor 435 00:24:02,824 --> 00:24:07,824 Speaker 2: unions and trying to expand their voting base beyond just 436 00:24:07,904 --> 00:24:09,944 Speaker 2: the gay men and the castro And that's how he 437 00:24:09,984 --> 00:24:10,704 Speaker 2: eventually won. 438 00:24:12,144 --> 00:24:15,664 Speaker 1: And then not long afterwards, of course, Dan White, one 439 00:24:15,664 --> 00:24:19,504 Speaker 1: of the other council members, assassinates Harvey Milk after he wins. 440 00:24:20,224 --> 00:24:25,304 Speaker 2: Dan White was this former policeman, very clean cut guy, conservative, 441 00:24:25,464 --> 00:24:29,784 Speaker 2: representing a very conservative, whitebread district in San Francisco. He 442 00:24:29,944 --> 00:24:33,344 Speaker 2: was elected in the same election as Harvey Milk, and 443 00:24:33,424 --> 00:24:36,744 Speaker 2: they were colleagues and there's a sort of long tangled 444 00:24:36,784 --> 00:24:39,144 Speaker 2: history to how Dan White got to this point. But 445 00:24:39,184 --> 00:24:42,024 Speaker 2: then he showed up at city Hall, climbed in through 446 00:24:42,064 --> 00:24:46,624 Speaker 2: a window with a gun and assassinated the mayor, George 447 00:24:46,664 --> 00:24:50,704 Speaker 2: Moscone and Harveney Milk right in city Hall, and Diane Feinstein, 448 00:24:50,784 --> 00:24:54,264 Speaker 2: who was their colleague, had to come out and tell 449 00:24:54,304 --> 00:24:57,184 Speaker 2: the press the murderer is Dan White. I mean, there's 450 00:24:57,264 --> 00:24:57,784 Speaker 2: video of this. 451 00:24:57,944 --> 00:25:04,144 Speaker 1: It is jaw dropping, and this really, I mean upsets 452 00:25:04,184 --> 00:25:06,904 Speaker 1: everyone in San Francisco, especially in the gay community, but 453 00:25:07,464 --> 00:25:10,224 Speaker 1: it really motivates Robert ople Oh yeah. 454 00:25:10,384 --> 00:25:13,544 Speaker 2: Immediately there were all sorts of conspiracy theories swirling and 455 00:25:13,584 --> 00:25:16,184 Speaker 2: you know, how could this have happened or the cops 456 00:25:16,184 --> 00:25:18,184 Speaker 2: in on it. There was a lot of suspicion, and 457 00:25:18,264 --> 00:25:21,544 Speaker 2: rightly so, because the San Francisco Police Department was constantly, 458 00:25:21,584 --> 00:25:25,384 Speaker 2: you know, cracking down, rating gay bars and you know, 459 00:25:25,424 --> 00:25:28,344 Speaker 2: taking people into the park and clubbing them with nightstcks. 460 00:25:28,384 --> 00:25:31,344 Speaker 2: So there was just a lot of tension. And the 461 00:25:31,504 --> 00:25:34,344 Speaker 2: murder of Harvey Milk, who was one of the first 462 00:25:34,384 --> 00:25:39,024 Speaker 2: openly gay elected officials in the whole country and really 463 00:25:39,064 --> 00:25:41,744 Speaker 2: the mascot of this community. I mean, that just it 464 00:25:41,864 --> 00:25:45,744 Speaker 2: just blew everything wide open. And even more so when 465 00:25:46,024 --> 00:25:50,144 Speaker 2: Dan White was put on trial and given a relatively 466 00:25:50,224 --> 00:25:53,624 Speaker 2: slap on the wrists. If the gay community was devastated 467 00:25:53,704 --> 00:25:58,104 Speaker 2: before because of the assassinations, the verdict is really what 468 00:25:58,224 --> 00:26:02,064 Speaker 2: turned that into complete rage. And so there was a 469 00:26:02,224 --> 00:26:05,824 Speaker 2: night called the White Knight Riots where the entire castor 470 00:26:05,824 --> 00:26:08,824 Speaker 2: community just was ripping up cars, setting things on fire, 471 00:26:09,184 --> 00:26:14,544 Speaker 2: and the SFPD reacted by raiding gay bars, beating people. 472 00:26:14,784 --> 00:26:18,384 Speaker 2: It's a legendary night in the gay rights movement? 473 00:26:18,904 --> 00:26:19,624 Speaker 1: What does Opel do? 474 00:26:20,784 --> 00:26:24,224 Speaker 2: So he was very involved. He appeared at a benefit 475 00:26:24,344 --> 00:26:28,624 Speaker 2: for some of the protesters who've been arrested, and he 476 00:26:28,744 --> 00:26:31,384 Speaker 2: was on one hand telling friends that he was going 477 00:26:31,424 --> 00:26:33,744 Speaker 2: to write a play about what really happened to Harvey Milk, 478 00:26:33,824 --> 00:26:38,464 Speaker 2: And he started developing this plan for something he was 479 00:26:38,544 --> 00:26:41,464 Speaker 2: going to do a kind of performance art piece where 480 00:26:41,464 --> 00:26:43,824 Speaker 2: he was going to go to the Gay Freedom Day 481 00:26:43,864 --> 00:26:47,784 Speaker 2: Parade and stage a pseudo event called the Execution of 482 00:26:47,904 --> 00:26:50,384 Speaker 2: Dan White. He had a friend who looked just like 483 00:26:50,464 --> 00:26:52,384 Speaker 2: Dan White. So the idea is they would dress someone 484 00:26:52,424 --> 00:26:55,824 Speaker 2: ups Dan White and that Opel would appear as a 485 00:26:55,904 --> 00:26:59,184 Speaker 2: leather man and publicly execute him. There was actually a 486 00:26:59,224 --> 00:27:01,904 Speaker 2: poster for this event at the parade that said, what 487 00:27:01,944 --> 00:27:05,544 Speaker 2: would happen if a queer gay homosexual per cocksucker faggot 488 00:27:05,664 --> 00:27:08,144 Speaker 2: shot and killed an ex cop? Would he get away 489 00:27:08,144 --> 00:27:08,624 Speaker 2: with murder? 490 00:27:09,144 --> 00:27:11,864 Speaker 1: And he does this performance and it makes the evening news? 491 00:27:11,944 --> 00:27:16,064 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, So at the Gay Parade that year nineteen 492 00:27:16,104 --> 00:27:20,624 Speaker 2: seventy nine United Nations, Plaza and Ople introduced himself as 493 00:27:20,784 --> 00:27:24,424 Speaker 2: the character Gay Justice like in an allegory, and then 494 00:27:24,464 --> 00:27:29,104 Speaker 2: he quote unquote executed this lookalike of Dan White and. 495 00:27:29,064 --> 00:27:30,024 Speaker 1: Do you get in trouble for this? 496 00:27:31,104 --> 00:27:35,504 Speaker 2: They immediately got death threats at his gallery. The organizes 497 00:27:35,504 --> 00:27:39,544 Speaker 2: of the parade strongly advised him against doing it, but 498 00:27:39,664 --> 00:27:42,024 Speaker 2: he did it anyway, so it did upset people. 499 00:27:42,904 --> 00:27:45,824 Speaker 1: So then, and this was maybe the most surprising part 500 00:27:45,864 --> 00:27:49,144 Speaker 1: of your very surprising piece. Robert Ople gets a girlfriend. 501 00:27:50,184 --> 00:27:53,824 Speaker 2: Yeah he does. You thought that was the most surprising part, huh, 502 00:27:54,264 --> 00:27:56,744 Speaker 2: I mean it did so okay. So this was this woman, 503 00:27:57,144 --> 00:28:03,024 Speaker 2: Camille O'Grady. She is like a super punk and she 504 00:28:03,064 --> 00:28:05,344 Speaker 2: had come from New York where she was in a 505 00:28:05,344 --> 00:28:08,424 Speaker 2: punk band. She knew Robert Mayplethorpe and also dated him, 506 00:28:08,464 --> 00:28:11,904 Speaker 2: so she had so gay boyfriends. So Camilla Griddy ended 507 00:28:11,944 --> 00:28:14,144 Speaker 2: up in San Francisco. She got there at the end 508 00:28:14,184 --> 00:28:16,784 Speaker 2: of nineteen seventy eight. Maplethorpe had told her to look 509 00:28:16,864 --> 00:28:19,584 Speaker 2: up Robert Ople, so she goes to the gallery. They 510 00:28:19,624 --> 00:28:22,944 Speaker 2: have this like four hour mind meld, and soon they're 511 00:28:23,704 --> 00:28:25,624 Speaker 2: dating and they're kind of tied at the hip, and 512 00:28:25,704 --> 00:28:29,064 Speaker 2: Camille actually moved into the back of Fewai Studios, which 513 00:28:29,064 --> 00:28:31,544 Speaker 2: I had a little apartment, and they're basically living together 514 00:28:32,904 --> 00:28:33,344 Speaker 2: and all of. 515 00:28:33,304 --> 00:28:35,104 Speaker 1: This is happening. So quickly. This is only a couple 516 00:28:35,264 --> 00:28:36,864 Speaker 1: years after the streaking, right. 517 00:28:37,184 --> 00:28:40,504 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is nineteen seventy nine, so five years after 518 00:28:40,544 --> 00:28:40,944 Speaker 2: the streak. 519 00:28:41,904 --> 00:28:44,104 Speaker 1: And they make a little movie together called Fuck You 520 00:28:44,144 --> 00:28:47,144 Speaker 1: Santa Claus, which did that win in the Oscars? 521 00:28:49,344 --> 00:28:51,264 Speaker 2: No, but they do have a nominee this year called 522 00:28:51,264 --> 00:28:53,184 Speaker 2: My Year of Dix. So I feel like maybe Robert 523 00:28:53,184 --> 00:28:56,344 Speaker 2: Oplethorpe's you know, long influence has been felt. 524 00:28:57,984 --> 00:29:02,144 Speaker 1: And he's interviewing like John Waters and Divine for this 525 00:29:02,224 --> 00:29:05,664 Speaker 1: proposed cable station that he's trying to create, and he 526 00:29:05,744 --> 00:29:09,024 Speaker 1: decides he decides to fund that by selling drugs. 527 00:29:09,704 --> 00:29:11,744 Speaker 2: Right, I mean, first of all, I love that he was, 528 00:29:11,864 --> 00:29:14,624 Speaker 2: of course in the same meal you as John Waters 529 00:29:14,704 --> 00:29:18,024 Speaker 2: and Divine. Of course, why wouldn't he be. He just 530 00:29:18,144 --> 00:29:22,624 Speaker 2: loved that sort of down a dirty camp, be outrageous. 531 00:29:22,864 --> 00:29:29,544 Speaker 2: John Waters overra is is opel, very charming, delightful. Every 532 00:29:29,544 --> 00:29:31,864 Speaker 2: foot all the footage I've seen of him, he's funny. 533 00:29:32,184 --> 00:29:35,664 Speaker 2: He just had so much spark and energy and conviction. 534 00:29:35,864 --> 00:29:38,664 Speaker 2: He had political conviction behind all this stuff, but he 535 00:29:38,944 --> 00:29:43,944 Speaker 2: always sort of laced it with humor, with outrageous rivaled humor. 536 00:29:44,464 --> 00:29:47,664 Speaker 1: And he's selling drugs. Is this new there is. He's 537 00:29:47,704 --> 00:29:48,584 Speaker 1: been doing this whole time. 538 00:29:49,144 --> 00:29:52,264 Speaker 2: The people who knew him seemed to think that he 539 00:29:52,504 --> 00:29:56,184 Speaker 2: started selling drugs to kind of fund his activities. He 540 00:29:56,264 --> 00:29:59,384 Speaker 2: was selling PCP or angel dust and Opa would take 541 00:29:59,424 --> 00:30:02,144 Speaker 2: it himself and he would sort of run through the 542 00:30:02,144 --> 00:30:04,224 Speaker 2: streets naked a little bit of a throwback to his 543 00:30:04,264 --> 00:30:08,104 Speaker 2: streaking days. And Kamil, his new girlfriend, Camille Grady, was 544 00:30:08,544 --> 00:30:10,704 Speaker 2: very much a against this whole thing. She was very 545 00:30:10,744 --> 00:30:12,944 Speaker 2: worried about him. She would videotape him while he was 546 00:30:12,984 --> 00:30:14,904 Speaker 2: on PCP and then show him the next day to 547 00:30:14,944 --> 00:30:17,024 Speaker 2: say like look you and the night like curled up 548 00:30:17,024 --> 00:30:19,384 Speaker 2: in a ball, weep it like this is not cool. 549 00:30:20,104 --> 00:30:23,824 Speaker 1: And so what happened on this night of July eighth, 550 00:30:23,984 --> 00:30:25,544 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine. 551 00:30:25,784 --> 00:30:29,664 Speaker 2: So this was two weeks after the execution of Dan White. 552 00:30:30,024 --> 00:30:31,784 Speaker 1: This all happened within three weeks. 553 00:30:31,904 --> 00:30:36,464 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, So July eighth, nineteen seventy nine, O'Grady went 554 00:30:36,464 --> 00:30:39,584 Speaker 2: out to a club called the Plunge and Opah was 555 00:30:39,704 --> 00:30:41,784 Speaker 2: not feeling well, so he was back at the gallery. 556 00:30:42,184 --> 00:30:44,944 Speaker 2: So Camille was with a friend called Anthony Rogers who 557 00:30:45,024 --> 00:30:49,264 Speaker 2: his nickname was Harmodius. And so Camille and Harmodius are 558 00:30:49,264 --> 00:30:52,224 Speaker 2: at this club and she was very into sort of spiritualism, 559 00:30:52,424 --> 00:30:56,304 Speaker 2: and she said she had a premonition and she said, Anthony, 560 00:30:56,424 --> 00:30:57,904 Speaker 2: we've got to go back to the house. They get 561 00:30:57,984 --> 00:31:02,424 Speaker 2: back around nine pm to Feway Galleries and while they're there, 562 00:31:03,384 --> 00:31:06,584 Speaker 2: there's a buzzer that rings at the front door. They 563 00:31:06,624 --> 00:31:09,744 Speaker 2: go to the door and income these two really rough 564 00:31:09,784 --> 00:31:13,544 Speaker 2: locking guys and one of them pulls out a handgun, 565 00:31:14,184 --> 00:31:17,544 Speaker 2: the other has a sort of shotgun, and they demand 566 00:31:17,584 --> 00:31:20,984 Speaker 2: money and they demand drugs, and one of them puts 567 00:31:21,024 --> 00:31:24,304 Speaker 2: the muzzle of the shotgun right on Camille's neck and says, 568 00:31:24,344 --> 00:31:27,024 Speaker 2: give us the money or I'll kill her, and Opel 569 00:31:28,464 --> 00:31:31,184 Speaker 2: unwisely fought back. He said, you'll have to kill us 570 00:31:31,224 --> 00:31:34,504 Speaker 2: all there's no money, and then he keeps saying get 571 00:31:34,504 --> 00:31:35,464 Speaker 2: out of my space. 572 00:31:36,064 --> 00:31:37,464 Speaker 1: And that's just the kind of guy he is. 573 00:31:37,904 --> 00:31:40,024 Speaker 2: He was not taking any shit from anyone, and. 574 00:31:40,064 --> 00:31:41,904 Speaker 1: He's not afraid of David Nivin. He's not gonna be 575 00:31:41,904 --> 00:31:42,704 Speaker 1: afraid of these guys. 576 00:31:43,064 --> 00:31:46,144 Speaker 2: Well, I mean he should be, because David Niven isn't 577 00:31:46,184 --> 00:31:50,464 Speaker 2: going to kill you except with his dry wit. So 578 00:31:50,504 --> 00:31:53,704 Speaker 2: like the first guy with the shotgun says, I'll blow 579 00:31:53,744 --> 00:31:56,344 Speaker 2: your head off, and he fired a warning shot up 580 00:31:56,344 --> 00:32:00,784 Speaker 2: in the ceiling. Opel says, get out, get out. He says, 581 00:32:00,864 --> 00:32:04,184 Speaker 2: you're gonna have to shoot me. And meanwhile Camille and 582 00:32:04,264 --> 00:32:08,184 Speaker 2: Harmodious Anthony Rodgers were tied up in the back and 583 00:32:08,464 --> 00:32:11,264 Speaker 2: they hear a shot and then they hear a thud, 584 00:32:12,064 --> 00:32:16,064 Speaker 2: and that is the murder of Robert ople the two gunmen, 585 00:32:16,184 --> 00:32:20,344 Speaker 2: they leave, Camille and Harmodius untie themselves, go out into 586 00:32:20,344 --> 00:32:24,744 Speaker 2: the gallery and see Robert Opole a bleeding from above 587 00:32:24,744 --> 00:32:26,264 Speaker 2: his eye and taking his last breaths. 588 00:32:26,744 --> 00:32:28,704 Speaker 1: How big a story was this murder when it. 589 00:32:28,664 --> 00:32:31,464 Speaker 2: Happened, It was really big in the gay press. So 590 00:32:31,544 --> 00:32:34,344 Speaker 2: in the Bay Area Reporter there it was front page news. 591 00:32:34,984 --> 00:32:38,304 Speaker 2: And part of what happened immediately after the murder is 592 00:32:38,304 --> 00:32:41,944 Speaker 2: that the gay community thought that this was somehow a 593 00:32:41,984 --> 00:32:46,264 Speaker 2: big plot and that it was a political assassination essentially, 594 00:32:46,304 --> 00:32:50,304 Speaker 2: because remember it had happened two weeks after his performance 595 00:32:50,384 --> 00:32:52,784 Speaker 2: art about Dan White in the Gay parade. 596 00:32:53,064 --> 00:32:54,824 Speaker 1: And you know, Milk had just been killed. 597 00:32:55,104 --> 00:32:57,704 Speaker 2: Milk had just been killed, the mayor had just been killed. 598 00:32:57,904 --> 00:33:01,064 Speaker 2: The cops were raiding people like San Francisco was having 599 00:33:01,064 --> 00:33:04,304 Speaker 2: a Milt debt and so everyone was very conspiracy minded, 600 00:33:04,704 --> 00:33:07,624 Speaker 2: and in a way rightly so, like crazy things were happening, 601 00:33:07,864 --> 00:33:10,424 Speaker 2: absolutely mind bending things were happening. And so the gay 602 00:33:10,424 --> 00:33:14,904 Speaker 2: community saw the killing of Robert ople as this couldn't 603 00:33:14,944 --> 00:33:17,944 Speaker 2: have just been a stick up for drugs like this 604 00:33:17,984 --> 00:33:20,464 Speaker 2: had to have been a political assassination. 605 00:33:21,184 --> 00:33:22,224 Speaker 1: Who were these guys? 606 00:33:22,424 --> 00:33:25,744 Speaker 2: These guys turned out to be. Maurice Keenan was the 607 00:33:25,824 --> 00:33:29,024 Speaker 2: man who actually shot Robert ople and then Robert Kelly 608 00:33:29,064 --> 00:33:29,864 Speaker 2: was his accomplice. 609 00:33:30,264 --> 00:33:32,824 Speaker 1: I don't want to be murdered by a Maurice. I 610 00:33:32,864 --> 00:33:35,064 Speaker 1: want a much tougher I want a much tougher name. 611 00:33:35,104 --> 00:33:36,744 Speaker 1: I'm a murderer, you know. 612 00:33:36,784 --> 00:33:38,584 Speaker 2: One of the things that I found out a lot 613 00:33:38,584 --> 00:33:40,344 Speaker 2: about but really didn't have room in the story for 614 00:33:40,584 --> 00:33:42,864 Speaker 2: was just sort of their background and what led them 615 00:33:42,864 --> 00:33:48,024 Speaker 2: to this moment. They basically Maurice was absolutely on a 616 00:33:48,904 --> 00:33:52,224 Speaker 2: crazy drug Binch. He was on just a paranoid frenzy 617 00:33:52,264 --> 00:33:54,424 Speaker 2: that had lasted days that it came out the day 618 00:33:54,464 --> 00:33:57,184 Speaker 2: before he had shot his own dealer because he thought 619 00:33:57,184 --> 00:34:00,344 Speaker 2: that he was, you know, working for the man. Maurice 620 00:34:00,384 --> 00:34:03,664 Speaker 2: Keenan was tried in the early eighties and he was 621 00:34:03,824 --> 00:34:08,144 Speaker 2: sentenced to death and he spent many years on death row, 622 00:34:08,264 --> 00:34:11,184 Speaker 2: and then years later, in an appeal, his sentence was 623 00:34:11,224 --> 00:34:13,144 Speaker 2: downgraded to life in prison. 624 00:34:13,304 --> 00:34:14,984 Speaker 1: And is he still alive on death threat? 625 00:34:15,424 --> 00:34:17,464 Speaker 2: He's in prison in California somewhere. I wrote him a 626 00:34:17,504 --> 00:34:18,944 Speaker 2: letter in prison. He never responded. 627 00:34:19,264 --> 00:34:22,024 Speaker 1: So you not only wrote this story about the Oscar Streaker, 628 00:34:22,144 --> 00:34:24,864 Speaker 1: you also wrote a whole book about the Oscars called 629 00:34:24,944 --> 00:34:28,224 Speaker 1: Oscar Wars. What would you say is your craziest Oscar story? 630 00:34:28,344 --> 00:34:31,144 Speaker 2: You know? I have been there covering it when the 631 00:34:31,264 --> 00:34:34,264 Speaker 2: Envelope makes up happened with Muna Longland. I was there 632 00:34:34,264 --> 00:34:36,424 Speaker 2: for the slap last year, and. 633 00:34:36,504 --> 00:34:37,944 Speaker 1: Oh you were there for the slap? 634 00:34:38,024 --> 00:34:40,544 Speaker 2: I was there. Yeah, I saw it happen from the 635 00:34:40,624 --> 00:34:41,984 Speaker 2: cheap seats up in the balcony. 636 00:34:42,704 --> 00:34:46,664 Speaker 1: I saw it happen live on TV. And I remember 637 00:34:46,864 --> 00:34:50,104 Speaker 1: being shocked at the audience reaction and the fact that 638 00:34:50,144 --> 00:34:53,424 Speaker 1: the audience was so eager to keep this show going 639 00:34:53,544 --> 00:34:56,384 Speaker 1: and pretend it didn't happen. What was the feeling in the. 640 00:34:56,264 --> 00:34:59,344 Speaker 2: Theater, Absolute bewilderment. 641 00:34:59,624 --> 00:35:01,904 Speaker 1: A lot of people ever pretended it was no big deal. 642 00:35:02,544 --> 00:35:05,744 Speaker 2: No, no, people were just it was like it was just shocked, 643 00:35:05,824 --> 00:35:08,424 Speaker 2: you know what it felt like it felt like when 644 00:35:08,464 --> 00:35:11,584 Speaker 2: you're in a bar and a very violent brawl breaks out, 645 00:35:12,024 --> 00:35:14,744 Speaker 2: or two people are yelling in a restaurant or something like, 646 00:35:15,224 --> 00:35:18,064 Speaker 2: you know something where you're in a public place, there's 647 00:35:18,504 --> 00:35:21,464 Speaker 2: this element of like danger and unpredictability. And some people 648 00:35:21,624 --> 00:35:23,904 Speaker 2: even there thought that it might have been, you know, 649 00:35:24,224 --> 00:35:27,064 Speaker 2: a comedic bit. I didn't because as soon as I 650 00:35:27,064 --> 00:35:29,704 Speaker 2: heard him say, get my wife's same out your fucking mouth, 651 00:35:30,264 --> 00:35:32,144 Speaker 2: I thought, well, you can't say that on TV. And 652 00:35:32,144 --> 00:35:35,304 Speaker 2: he sounds extremely angry. I can hear this all the 653 00:35:35,344 --> 00:35:37,704 Speaker 2: way in the balcony. I could hear him yelling, and 654 00:35:37,744 --> 00:35:40,824 Speaker 2: I was like, this man just had a moment. But 655 00:35:40,984 --> 00:35:43,024 Speaker 2: you know, it's funny to bring it back to the Streaker. 656 00:35:43,064 --> 00:35:47,264 Speaker 2: I mean, Dasher's always has an element of unpredictability because 657 00:35:47,504 --> 00:35:49,344 Speaker 2: you don't know who's gonna win. But then there are 658 00:35:49,344 --> 00:35:52,384 Speaker 2: these moments that are just in their own echelon of 659 00:35:53,064 --> 00:35:56,264 Speaker 2: absolute crazy, unpredictable things. And you know, I think the 660 00:35:56,304 --> 00:35:59,904 Speaker 2: slab is up there with the Streak, with sashing little feather, 661 00:36:00,104 --> 00:36:03,344 Speaker 2: you know, declining the award from Irelon Brando, the envelope 662 00:36:03,384 --> 00:36:05,584 Speaker 2: mix up. You know, these things that just happened, they 663 00:36:05,624 --> 00:36:06,984 Speaker 2: become the story of the Evening. 664 00:36:07,504 --> 00:36:10,464 Speaker 1: Michael Schulman, you wrote the Ballad of the Oscar Streaker 665 00:36:10,504 --> 00:36:13,144 Speaker 1: for The New Yorker. Thank you so much for talking 666 00:36:13,144 --> 00:36:13,464 Speaker 1: to us. 667 00:36:13,624 --> 00:36:15,184 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. This is really fun. 668 00:36:16,944 --> 00:36:19,824 Speaker 1: So who knows, maybe this year there'll be another streaker 669 00:36:20,024 --> 00:36:22,824 Speaker 1: or a slapper or someone to meet. The Oscar is 670 00:36:22,864 --> 00:36:25,864 Speaker 1: a tiny bit interesting to give us something to actually 671 00:36:25,944 --> 00:36:30,384 Speaker 1: talk about the next day. But let's be honest, most 672 00:36:30,464 --> 00:36:34,264 Speaker 1: years the Oscars suck. It's like a sports event where 673 00:36:34,264 --> 00:36:36,904 Speaker 1: instead of watching the game, someone just shows up on 674 00:36:36,944 --> 00:36:40,584 Speaker 1: screen and announces a winner. Worse, the mood in the 675 00:36:40,624 --> 00:36:43,504 Speaker 1: place is awful. You start out with a bunch of 676 00:36:43,544 --> 00:36:46,504 Speaker 1: nervous people and then halfway through it's just a bunch 677 00:36:46,504 --> 00:36:48,544 Speaker 1: of pissed off people who didn't win their awards and 678 00:36:48,584 --> 00:36:51,784 Speaker 1: don't want to be there. But you know what, there 679 00:36:51,864 --> 00:36:54,424 Speaker 1: is something I actually look forward to every Oscar's Night, 680 00:36:55,304 --> 00:36:57,904 Speaker 1: and that's reserving a table at a restaurant in Los 681 00:36:57,944 --> 00:37:00,104 Speaker 1: Angeles that's normally totally booked. 682 00:37:02,864 --> 00:37:06,064 Speaker 3: At the end of the show, what's next for joel Stein? 683 00:37:06,264 --> 00:37:09,224 Speaker 3: Maybe he'll take a naper poke around one. 684 00:37:10,224 --> 00:37:15,304 Speaker 1: Our show Today was produced by Molibard and Nisha Benkutt. 685 00:37:15,664 --> 00:37:18,944 Speaker 1: It was edited by Lydia Jan Kott. Our engineer is 686 00:37:19,184 --> 00:37:24,104 Speaker 1: Amanda kay Wang and our executive producer is Catherine Shira Dao. 687 00:37:24,744 --> 00:37:27,344 Speaker 1: And our theme song was written and performed by Jonathan 688 00:37:27,384 --> 00:37:30,344 Speaker 1: Colton and a special thanks to my voice coach Vicky 689 00:37:30,464 --> 00:37:34,384 Speaker 1: Merrick and my consulting producer Laurence Alasnik. To find more 690 00:37:34,384 --> 00:37:39,184 Speaker 1: Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 691 00:37:39,184 --> 00:37:42,784 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm Joel Stein and 692 00:37:42,824 --> 00:37:45,104 Speaker 1: this is the story of the week. Do you think 693 00:37:45,104 --> 00:37:47,264 Speaker 1: if you'd been in San Francisco during this time, you 694 00:37:47,304 --> 00:37:48,704 Speaker 1: would have been involved in any of this? 695 00:37:49,424 --> 00:37:51,264 Speaker 2: God, I would love just I think a day in 696 00:37:51,344 --> 00:37:54,904 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine San Francisco in the castro. I don't 697 00:37:54,904 --> 00:37:58,424 Speaker 2: think I would be involved in like the leather scene. 698 00:37:58,464 --> 00:38:00,064 Speaker 2: I don't think I can I really have the stomach 699 00:38:00,064 --> 00:38:03,064 Speaker 2: for that. But maybe I would have been a castro boy. 700 00:38:03,064 --> 00:38:04,064 Speaker 2: Who knows? 701 00:38:04,264 --> 00:38:06,584 Speaker 1: You know, after only having talked to you for about 702 00:38:06,584 --> 00:38:08,344 Speaker 1: an hour and a half, I can tell you that 703 00:38:08,384 --> 00:38:09,904 Speaker 1: you would have been in none of this. 704 00:38:13,824 --> 00:38:16,864 Speaker 2: I like disco. I've been I've gone in disco danced. 705 00:38:17,464 --> 00:38:20,304 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's I've gone and disco, dance. 706 00:38:20,304 --> 00:38:24,104 Speaker 2: Loved, I would have thrived in the disco age. Thrived