Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm at Jack White's house in Detroit. There's over
Speaker 1: a dozen of us there. Jack's eighty eight year old
Speaker 1: mom is in the front room, greeting everyone as they
Speaker 1: come in. His older brothers there too, sawars, some folks
Speaker 1: from the Third Man record label, Jack Runs, Malcolm Gladwell
Speaker 1: and I are sitting in amazement. The Rack and Tours,
Speaker 1: Patrick Keeler, Jack, Lawrence, Brendan Benson, Jack White are hanging
Speaker 1: on Jack's sun porch, warming up, playing the blues of
Speaker 1: the thirty or so number one Billboard albums. This year,
Speaker 1: only four have been rock albums, and one was The
Speaker 1: Rack and Tours Help a Stranger. Jack and Malcolm first
Speaker 1: met in Nashville to talk about Elvis for Malcolm's other podcast,
Speaker 1: Revisionist History. Malcolm got the grand tour of Jackson State
Speaker 1: in Tennessee, where he and most of the band live
Speaker 1: now full time. After that, Malcolm would jump at any
Speaker 1: chance to hang with Jack. So when the invite came
Speaker 1: to tape a broken record episode with the band in
Speaker 1: their native Detroit, we leaped at it. Even Rick Rubin
Speaker 1: phoned in for it. You'll hear him turn up a
Speaker 1: few minutes into the conversation. This is a fun one.
Speaker 1: This is Broken Record Season three. Liner notes for the
Speaker 1: Digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Just a quick note here.
Speaker 1: You can listen to all of the music mentioned in
Speaker 1: this episode on our playlist, which you can find a
Speaker 1: link to in the show notes for licensing reasons, each
Speaker 1: time a song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear
Speaker 1: this sound effect. All right, enjoy the episode. Before Malcolm
Speaker 1: and Rick's conversation with the Rack and tours, the band
Speaker 1: kick things off with a great cover of Donovan's Hey
Speaker 1: Jip Dig the Slowness. Wait, that's the one where you
Speaker 1: thought of swapping out Cadillac for Tesla. Yeah, we were
Speaker 1: talking about it. I want don't we modernize if we're
Speaker 1: doing the cover of this. You know, all the old songs,
Speaker 1: the rock and roll and blue songs are always Cadillac,
Speaker 1: this and that. So this this song had Cadillac and
Speaker 1: Chevrolet and the original head I think the Mustang was
Speaker 1: a Memphis Mini song. I think he was taking his
Speaker 1: thing from and we're talking about Donovan, and so we thought,
Speaker 1: why don't we modernize, Let's let's put it in something
Speaker 1: like But we're like, oh, this just sounds silly. And
Speaker 1: then we just brought up this whole conversation of why
Speaker 1: why is it such a hard thing to interject modern
Speaker 1: technology into the lyrics of rock and roll or blue songs?
Speaker 1: Because hip hop and country can do it and I
Speaker 1: and they're expected to almost expected to you, like in
Speaker 1: modern countries. I mean, I don't know, you could look
Speaker 1: some up or something, because I don't really I'm not
Speaker 1: that familiar with modern country lyrics. But when I'm listening
Speaker 1: to the radio Nashville, it's always like something like you
Speaker 1: know all that shit, and like, yeah, I hope so,
Speaker 1: because that's a that's a hit, that's a hit. We laugh,
Speaker 1: But that actually, you know what I mean, like why
Speaker 1: are they? And then hip hop it's you can drop
Speaker 1: any modern reference and you're expected to its supposed to
Speaker 1: like whatever's hip this week, you know, let alone, uh
Speaker 1: not twenty nineteen. So but when rock and roll, if
Speaker 1: you do it, it's kind of it's kind of goofy.
Speaker 1: I mean, it brings up the idea, like I was
Speaker 1: talking sending you the idea of this phonograph lyrics, you know, hello, hello,
Speaker 1: oh Rick, oh hey Rick, Hello, Hello, how are you?
Speaker 1: We're all good? We're sitting here with the Rack on tours. Hey, Rick, Hey, Rick, Hey,
Speaker 1: what's happening? They just played a it's an old Donovan
Speaker 1: song which references I'll buy you a Cadillac, and we
Speaker 1: were asking the question why can't it be updated to
Speaker 1: I'll buy you a Tesla AX? And why why is
Speaker 1: it you can't? Why is it you can do modern
Speaker 1: references in country songs but not in rock and roll songs.
Speaker 1: That was the question on the table. I think you
Speaker 1: can know. I would love to. I would love to
Speaker 1: hear Jack singing about the Tesla AX. Yeah. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: give you example. I'm gonna do uh, just a second
Speaker 1: of a Phonograph blues, Robert Johnson Phonograph Blues. So we
Speaker 1: got like a But if that was a hip hop track,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you know this Rick better than the most
Speaker 1: you could say that if you put the right new
Speaker 1: beat on it, not only is it gonna work, it's
Speaker 1: actually expected. But there's something about rock and roll and
Speaker 1: blues to me. I always feel like, if you can't
Speaker 1: there has to be a mechanical thing to have it
Speaker 1: have romance to it, Like if it doesn't have if
Speaker 1: it's if you yeah, everybody's still singing about trains, and
Speaker 1: even guys never even seen a train in their life
Speaker 1: can write a song and put a train in there.
Speaker 1: But if you say mono rail people mover or whatever,
Speaker 1: and if that doesn't make any sense, it's not romantic.
Speaker 1: If you we're talking about electric car set of an
Speaker 1: old Cadillac, all of a sudden, it's not romantic. But
Speaker 1: then ultimately you limit the rock and roll vocabulary to that.
Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think agree with you. I
Speaker 1: think that's a that's a self imposed limitation that maybe
Speaker 1: that's what it's gonna take. Maybe that's what the reinvention
Speaker 1: of rock and roll sounds like. It's modern references. I
Speaker 1: don't know, Almo, I think rock and roll has this
Speaker 1: like lyric Lyrically, it's always been mysterious. I think, you know,
Speaker 1: like almost like a I mean, even the Blues they
Speaker 1: were like speaking like you know, such slang. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was like, you know, you couldn't easily understand what
Speaker 1: they're talking about. And it's continued on, like what's Mick
Speaker 1: Jagger mean by that? But if Robert Johnson is when
Speaker 1: he's saying, Beatrice, I love your phonograph or whatever he's
Speaker 1: talking that was a modern thing right then and there.
Speaker 1: That was a hot thing to have. A lot only
Speaker 1: rich people had record players in a lot of prices.
Speaker 1: Maybe more than that, maybe it was, like you know,
Speaker 1: in that day, a way of saying, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know, like secretly I'm in love with you, or
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe it meant even more like it was.
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm talking about just the literal reference of
Speaker 1: he's referencing a modern technological device a phonograph right at
Speaker 1: that time. If you wrote a blue song quote unquote
Speaker 1: right now and you mentioned iPod or listening to streaming
Speaker 1: service on your I phone, that's not romantic. It's just
Speaker 1: it's kind of sounds silly, and if you and maybe
Speaker 1: it's something to contextualize with rock and rolls place in
Speaker 1: culture now in twenty nineteen, compared to hip hop or
Speaker 1: or country music or modern country music, which I don't
Speaker 1: really think is even even is country music really anymore,
Speaker 1: But the fact that they're expected to make really current
Speaker 1: modern references in country music for it to be a
Speaker 1: hit song, it's expectation. But those guys, I think Williams
Speaker 1: wouldn't been caught dead not singing out of Cadillac or something,
Speaker 1: you know like that. It is this a problem for
Speaker 1: that kind you're talking about? Sort of the rock and
Speaker 1: roll vernacular has a set of very specific reference. Is
Speaker 1: that a problem that you can't kind of updated easily?
Speaker 1: You did put clicking and swiping into a rock Yeah,
Speaker 1: we can't be done. We had a song on there
Speaker 1: was said Brendan actually came up with lyricists, don't bother me.
Speaker 1: It's so but that's that's what was in there. And
Speaker 1: he came up he said that though clicking and swiping,
Speaker 1: And I thought that was funny because it had like
Speaker 1: multiple meanings. It's not pointing to a specific cultural artifact.
Speaker 1: If you're playing with words, you're winking. Yeah, I did.
Speaker 1: I did a bid women sound song few years ago
Speaker 1: called three Women, and his was like and when I
Speaker 1: did it was I got three women red, Blondie and
Speaker 1: Brunette and I when I went to the five, I said,
Speaker 1: and I got away with it there that was a
Speaker 1: blue song done in sort of like a funky way.
Speaker 1: And I said digital photograph And I was purposely trying
Speaker 1: to break this idea in might have but let's go
Speaker 1: back to he made that comment just now, Jack that yeah,
Speaker 1: and a lot of what passes for country today, he said,
Speaker 1: isn't really country. Yeah, talk a little bit about the distinction,
Speaker 1: you see. You seem to say that there are some
Speaker 1: rules that apply to country. That yeah, you can talk specifically.
Speaker 1: I think someone who's in a country artist might be
Speaker 1: able to tell you better than I would have. But
Speaker 1: I think they'd also be afraid to say it because
Speaker 1: they're very I think they live in fear in that
Speaker 1: world because they only have one radio format, it's country,
Speaker 1: and if they don't stick to the formula, they will
Speaker 1: not get radio airplay if they try to do like
Speaker 1: if a modern country artist without naming any names whatever,
Speaker 1: were to do like a record an album as the
Speaker 1: same way Hank Williams or Loretta Lynn had done in
Speaker 1: the sixties or fifties, then they would call it roots
Speaker 1: rock or Americana and it would never get played and
Speaker 1: it would never get played on the radio, and it
Speaker 1: would become Okay, he's trying to go roots you now,
Speaker 1: and it would be a failure, I think, And I
Speaker 1: think that's the scares them. They have to use really
Speaker 1: computerized they're adapting, they're adapting really quickly. They're evolving, you know,
Speaker 1: Like I mean, the country music itself is changing. I
Speaker 1: mean has been changing for so for so long now,
Speaker 1: and finally it's become anything goes. It's pop, it's rap,
Speaker 1: it's whatever, heavy metal, so I mean it's I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe it's kind of evolving for that read out of
Speaker 1: necessity because there's only there. They only have this corner
Speaker 1: of the market or whatever, you know, so in order
Speaker 1: to survive country music. Well that's how big. That's how
Speaker 1: why Taylor's swift got so more it's more gigantic as
Speaker 1: distanced away from country and became more pop and succeeded
Speaker 1: in doing so. Which is I mean, you're talking about
Speaker 1: the most loyal fan base, and think in all the
Speaker 1: genres is country music fans. I mean, if they like
Speaker 1: you for one day, they like you to the day
Speaker 1: they die. And the worst star where we came from
Speaker 1: the garage rock hipsters who like you this week and
Speaker 1: don't like you next week. Yeah, and that idea of
Speaker 1: that you toggle back and forth between Nashville and Detroit
Speaker 1: is really interesting. I'm just curious about how that affects
Speaker 1: the way you make music. I think one thing that
Speaker 1: happens is you know, there's a lot. Yeah, I've met
Speaker 1: a lot more fiddle players, you know, like since I've
Speaker 1: been living there, or steel players, and invariably you invite
Speaker 1: one of them some you know, just as a I mean,
Speaker 1: you just get to know these people. They're cool, so
Speaker 1: you invite them down to play, and soon they're appearing
Speaker 1: on your record. And then people are saying, you know,
Speaker 1: you've I see how you've you know, you've taken on
Speaker 1: this kind of Nashville sound or whatever, and it's like, well,
Speaker 1: actually this person I mean, yes, I guess maybe you
Speaker 1: could say that, but uh but in reality, it was
Speaker 1: just this guy's so cool and I'm in all of
Speaker 1: his skills. I love his He's like he's crazy good,
Speaker 1: and it's I want to be around that, you know.
Speaker 1: To add to add to that, though, if you went
Speaker 1: nobody wants to be boxed in in any case. So
Speaker 1: if you were say we did all move to Nashville
Speaker 1: and we actually became country singers because of the environment,
Speaker 1: we would probably be prone to not admit it. We'd
Speaker 1: probably be prone when asked to say, oh no, that's
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with this. We'd like country music
Speaker 1: back when we live in Detroit, We're not being pushed
Speaker 1: around or influenced by our environment or whatever. But I
Speaker 1: think wherever you go, it's not like when we were
Speaker 1: in Detroit. It's not like we like the Stooges because
Speaker 1: we're walking down the street we like the Stooges. It's
Speaker 1: because the people were hanging out with like the Stooges,
Speaker 1: and we like them too, and not just means a
Speaker 1: cultural thing. In this area the country, we're more prone
Speaker 1: to like the gorries of Stooges, Detroit, Cobras, whatever. And
Speaker 1: if you're down in Nashville, you're more prone to like
Speaker 1: Laretta Lynn and Tammy Laynette. Would you say that since
Speaker 1: moving to Nashville forgetting the making of music, has your
Speaker 1: taste changed at all? That's a great question. Rick. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna say I've been I've been exposed more to country,
Speaker 1: kind of pop country by my wife, and she's like
Speaker 1: that stuff, and so I think my I think I've
Speaker 1: come around slightly to some of it, you know, just
Speaker 1: seeing I can see some good and I'm not sure
Speaker 1: it's changed my taste, but maybe it's broadened my horizons
Speaker 1: a little bit. You know. Have you written I have
Speaker 1: an appreciation. So I have a very large appreciation and
Speaker 1: respect for some of those writers. I think they're super
Speaker 1: clever and you know what I mean, And that's sort
Speaker 1: of been country music for a long time, kind of
Speaker 1: witty and clever. And that could be like Florida Georgia
Speaker 1: line that has a line maybe that's just like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's good, that's good. You know, I appreciate that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. My appreciation goes to, like I like the
Speaker 1: cleverness of the monster mash and the cleverness of uh,
Speaker 1: you know, uh, the novelty songs. And if you there's
Speaker 1: is when you're a songwriter and you're and you're thinking
Speaker 1: of something clever, like I think this last record, Druis album,
Speaker 1: we stayed away from clever in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: It's it's tempting to want to come up with a
Speaker 1: clever lyric, but then you also can go pass that
Speaker 1: line into novelty, well then into not no emotion, no emotion,
Speaker 1: no feeling, because it's that clever is kind of like
Speaker 1: it's this Nie slapper or it's like a jeez, I
Speaker 1: mean not it's actually I take that back. I mean
Speaker 1: sometimes it's just just so good it's and I'm trying.
Speaker 1: I can't think of, you know, any great examples right now.
Speaker 1: Is there a song on this on this most recent record,
Speaker 1: she thinks I still love her, you know, or something
Speaker 1: like that. You know that song, Yeah, she thinks I
Speaker 1: still care? I mean, it's the whole song is or
Speaker 1: the whole song is kind of just this witty it's
Speaker 1: so heavy. It's almost like in Loretta Lindos at all
Speaker 1: the time, like there's a throwaway that's the novelty hook
Speaker 1: to get you involved. But the metaphors once you get
Speaker 1: in there are so heavy and deep that makes you
Speaker 1: giggle for a second kind of smile, but then you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: whoa wait a minute, Yeah, I think I think she
Speaker 1: thinks I still care is one of the most amazing
Speaker 1: metaphors ever written. As from a songwriting standpoint, everyone can
Speaker 1: relate to that, like, yeah, you know, but you could
Speaker 1: laugh forget her, forget him, you know, like I need him,
Speaker 1: you know. It's just classic man and then summed up
Speaker 1: so perfectly in that song. But it's because he's he
Speaker 1: does still care, right, that's the whole point of that song.
Speaker 1: I remember there's a Conway twitty song that begins with
Speaker 1: all the things he has to do now that his
Speaker 1: woman has left him. Yeah, I remember I've canceled my
Speaker 1: subscription to the whole Ladies Turn. And it's like totally gimmicky,
Speaker 1: and then you start to realize, oh my god, yeah,
Speaker 1: this guy's truly truly Yeah, you know. It's what's interesting
Speaker 1: about it is it's really sarcasm. Yeah, and it's not
Speaker 1: unusual to hear sarcasm. Let's saying a Bob Dylan song,
Speaker 1: but lines might be sarcastic, it would, the premise of
Speaker 1: the song is almost never. I can't think of an
Speaker 1: example where the premise of the song is based on sarcasm. Right,
Speaker 1: you're right, right, it's hook lines to hook you in
Speaker 1: with sarcasm. But the deeper meaning of it is actually
Speaker 1: But I go so far as to say that that's
Speaker 1: the all great songs are like that, that that the
Speaker 1: story is what you're trying to convey. You're communicating a story.
Speaker 1: The music, the melody, all of it's a trick. It's
Speaker 1: all of a way to trick you into the story. Well,
Speaker 1: hopefully there are many levels too, Right, there's to trick
Speaker 1: you in, to get you. The beat is a trick.
Speaker 1: The title the song's a trick, that the melody is
Speaker 1: a trick. And I don't mean that in an insulting
Speaker 1: sense a way. It's there's nothing wrong with that. That's great,
Speaker 1: and I think that's when. But it's just to manipulate
Speaker 1: your feeling and your emotions and to make you sad,
Speaker 1: make you cry like this, this feels you know, this
Speaker 1: is great? Or this you know, you make some sort
Speaker 1: of sound that sounds you know, whatever the decord, you know,
Speaker 1: the ultimate? Do you do it? Do you would you
Speaker 1: say you do that consciously? I do sometimes I think
Speaker 1: so yeah, and and probably fail most of those times.
Speaker 1: I'm conscious of it. And then other times, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, songs kind of creep up on me later,
Speaker 1: much later, and I think, wow, man, I you know
Speaker 1: that's cool. That's really deep, you know, it's it moves
Speaker 1: me in a different way. Maybe it hits me differently,
Speaker 1: and I think, oh, okay, I think that was a
Speaker 1: successful song. You know, is there a song on the
Speaker 1: latest album that strikes you in retrospect as a Nashville song,
Speaker 1: a song you would would only have written because you
Speaker 1: moved to Nashville. Maybe thoughts and prayers and thoughts and
Speaker 1: prayers as Yeah, that's the last song on the record,
Speaker 1: kind of has that vibe to it. Can you pay
Speaker 1: a little bit and then explain what sort of Nashville
Speaker 1: about it? Let's discover maybe we can discover the way
Speaker 1: I love that song. Wait, can that song get played
Speaker 1: on country radio? No? Absolutely, you know, it's really it's
Speaker 1: really more it's more Southern rock than it is kind
Speaker 1: I think you're right, Rick, Yeah, yeah, it has that
Speaker 1: feeling to it. It's sort of like those incorporations of
Speaker 1: those sort of luck that kind of cowboy Yeah, it
Speaker 1: makes me think more of like Leonard Skinner and Molly
Speaker 1: Hatchett than it does country music. You know. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: like on paper, if you were going to write a
Speaker 1: story about a garage rock band from Detroit then moved
Speaker 1: to Nashville who has songwriting sensibilities, you might say that
Speaker 1: they're gonna turn into fuckinglerd Skinner. I don't know. You
Speaker 1: are Southern rock not necessarily not necessarily a bad thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not a bad Wait. Can you can you talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about how that song came about? It was
Speaker 1: like a little demo I did it. I thought maybe
Speaker 1: it wasn't really that interesting, but Brendan kind of heard
Speaker 1: something in it, and we were testing it out. It
Speaker 1: was more minor key, I think, wasn't it all minor?
Speaker 1: And then we changed you changed it to major D
Speaker 1: and brought some sort of my brightness too? So is
Speaker 1: that all you began with or did you beat? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And I had that was like I was trying to
Speaker 1: write lyrics like I wouldn't normally write, trying to like
Speaker 1: pretend I was a different songwriter writing those lyrics. I
Speaker 1: would never write, why why does the grim Reaper creep?
Speaker 1: How does the Grim Reaper creep? If he doesn't really
Speaker 1: have the time? I mean, that's me. When I wrote
Speaker 1: that down was to trying to be ridiculous to myself,
Speaker 1: like what another songwriter would write, like why no? Cross
Speaker 1: that out? I was trying to go into that territory
Speaker 1: or Joe, trying to shake myself up a little bit.
Speaker 1: And I had heard I had heard a pick. What's that?
Speaker 1: Did you pick? Did you pick a character for that songwriter?
Speaker 1: Or was it just not you? Was it rooted in
Speaker 1: either anyone you love or a combination or a fictional character?
Speaker 1: What's the character? Actually? It's a It's like I won't
Speaker 1: say the name. But I heard I heard a reference
Speaker 1: on the radio, driving in the car, heard a reference
Speaker 1: in the radio that pissed me off so much. It
Speaker 1: was a reference in a song that was someone trying
Speaker 1: to be clever and modern. And I won't say what
Speaker 1: it was, but to me, that made me write this
Speaker 1: line of I wrote a letter down to you like
Speaker 1: I'm Sullivan Blue. I was trying to say, like if
Speaker 1: I had took this goofy song writer and said, hey, listen,
Speaker 1: why don't you instead of that reference, why don't you
Speaker 1: reference something that actually has some staying power, some longevity
Speaker 1: to it, instead of saying that person's name, Why don't
Speaker 1: you say Sullivan Blue and let people go and learn
Speaker 1: about Sullivan Blue in the letter he wrote in the
Speaker 1: Civil War and maybe that. So it's almost like I
Speaker 1: was pretending to workshop with this songwriter kid who doesn't
Speaker 1: know what he's doing. You know. It's kind of a strange, crazy,
Speaker 1: off the left field thing to do. But so you're
Speaker 1: literally driving down the road. Had you heard that song before, No,
Speaker 1: so you're hearing it for the first time, and then
Speaker 1: you the song makes a reference and you're like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can do better than that. Yeah, it's I think
Speaker 1: you should care enough. I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: don't say that I'm dumb enough to say that in
Speaker 1: interviews and stuff, you know, Like they say like that
Speaker 1: that that that's you know enough. I can hear that
Speaker 1: and it pisces me off. But I think that you
Speaker 1: should care enough about your craft. If you're an architect
Speaker 1: and you drive it down the street and you see
Speaker 1: some ridiculously built, constructed house in a neighborhood where it
Speaker 1: doesn't belong you, you have two rules of all. You
Speaker 1: can be like, oh, hey, I'm easy going man, everything's cool,
Speaker 1: sure man, whatever you want, you know, or you'll be
Speaker 1: like no, rid absolutely, you're like you know. Frank Windwright
Speaker 1: used to call all the glass building architects the glass
Speaker 1: box Boys, which always thought would be a great name
Speaker 1: for a band. But it's great, but his his his
Speaker 1: love of the craft. You when you're turned angry at
Speaker 1: times by your love of the craft, When you see
Speaker 1: someone getting away with something ridiculous, I think it should
Speaker 1: anger you a little bit because it makes you love
Speaker 1: what you're doing all that much more. I love the
Speaker 1: idea that you could be inspired by something that you
Speaker 1: don't like to make something better and new that you
Speaker 1: wouldn't do otherwise. That's really interesting. Yeah, I think I
Speaker 1: always just feel like I learned more from what not
Speaker 1: to do than what to do. And there's these moments
Speaker 1: where I think I just popped in my head talking
Speaker 1: about modern country, like when we when the Grammys were
Speaker 1: on last year, like Brandy Carlisle, when she's saying I
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, that's how it's done. That
Speaker 1: should be country music right now. That should be what
Speaker 1: all country music writing should strive for. Is what she
Speaker 1: just did on Alive on the air. What was it
Speaker 1: specifically about what she was doing that you that you
Speaker 1: would drive I believed her. Yeah, it was beautiful. It
Speaker 1: was like undeniably beautiful. You don't have to be country,
Speaker 1: you know, a country fan or a fan of hers
Speaker 1: even to know that that was gorgeous. But voices other
Speaker 1: world Ye, yes, yes, but you gotta want to know.
Speaker 1: You gotta want to You know, there's there's artists out there.
Speaker 1: You hear them sing, and they could do a beautiful
Speaker 1: job and sing gorgeously, but I don't believe them. If
Speaker 1: I don't believe them and I don't trust them, then
Speaker 1: I don't care about their songs. How do you, I mean,
Speaker 1: is that something that you worry about with your own music? Yeah,
Speaker 1: be believable. Well, the dream would be it would just
Speaker 1: be great to just be put out because all the
Speaker 1: people that we look well, I can I can speak
Speaker 1: for everyone in the band, but I can assume but
Speaker 1: that the people that we love and admire and idolize,
Speaker 1: the songwriters and the musicians throughout history are the ones
Speaker 1: we don't know much about. I don't really know that
Speaker 1: much about Hank Grahams, I don't know that much about
Speaker 1: Robert Johnson. We grasp at little crumbs to learn about them.
Speaker 1: But I'm glad we kind of don't have that many
Speaker 1: photographs of Charlie Patton and Robert Johnson because I think
Speaker 1: we'd probably destroy the mythology and you wouldn't just be
Speaker 1: in love with that stuff as much. And nowadays you
Speaker 1: see everything of everybody's life all day long and there's
Speaker 1: no mystery at all. So in order to be a
Speaker 1: believable character like oh, like say Brandy Carlisle, I do
Speaker 1: trust her and I believe in her. I still don't
Speaker 1: know that much about her, but from first impression I
Speaker 1: trust her, you know, isn't it interesting that the better
Speaker 1: the singer, the harder it is to trust them. Do
Speaker 1: you get that? Do you feel that experience at all? Yeah?
Speaker 1: They can kind of They can fool you, can't they
Speaker 1: They can trick you. Yeah. Well, you could have, like say,
Speaker 1: at national level studio session with a bunch of musicians,
Speaker 1: and there'll be a couple of like virtuosos there who
Speaker 1: are maybe like school taught or union or whatever kind
Speaker 1: of things like that, and after a minute you kind
Speaker 1: of get that vibe like mm, too too good, too clean,
Speaker 1: too too nice enough, not enough kind of soul. We'll
Speaker 1: be back with more from Jack White and Brendan Benson
Speaker 1: after the break, We're back with more of Malcolm and
Speaker 1: Rick's conversation with the Rack and Tours The Good. I'm
Speaker 1: interested this notion of imperfection being somehow appealing and perfection
Speaker 1: being seeming phony. Is there a really good imperfect song,
Speaker 1: A Rack and Tours song, that good imperfect song that
Speaker 1: you like, that you love because of it's of it's
Speaker 1: how rough it is, or how imperfect it is, or
Speaker 1: how kind of They're all a little bit like that
Speaker 1: in various forms. You know. I think I not to
Speaker 1: say where you were you like, but I think I
Speaker 1: bring maybe bring that to that. That's what I bring
Speaker 1: to the table for you. That's what makes what what
Speaker 1: the songwriting you do in your own world where you
Speaker 1: are are. He's a song craftsman, and I'm not really that.
Speaker 1: I'm not good at that. He's very good at crafting
Speaker 1: the song perfectly, and I'm more. My talents lie more
Speaker 1: and very being very rough from perfectly and and I
Speaker 1: think that's where the matchup is cool. If we are
Speaker 1: both rough guys or both craftsman, I don't think it
Speaker 1: would work. So I think it's two different looks at you.
Speaker 1: Does that cause problems sometimes? No? Because I want it.
Speaker 1: I mean I think that I can benefit from more
Speaker 1: of that in my writing, like you know, I've always
Speaker 1: thought that, And I benefit from your craftsmanship and wanting
Speaker 1: to do I think it's because we both want to
Speaker 1: do what each other's doing a song and driving to
Speaker 1: write the perfect song. You know, can you illustrate what
Speaker 1: you're talking about with a with a snippet of a song?
Speaker 1: Caroline and drama is good because that's a that's more
Speaker 1: like I would never have done that kind of songwriting
Speaker 1: a song and the Life Stripes for example, like that
Speaker 1: kind of storytelling songwriting song. With that kind of arrangement
Speaker 1: that we did, it would have been turned into more
Speaker 1: like a slide blue song. I think if I had
Speaker 1: done it in no Oystripes, I think, dude, little, give
Speaker 1: me a little taste of that, and then like, could
Speaker 1: you have about a few minutes of coming, I think
Speaker 1: we should tune up. Yeah, yeah, that's what I meant
Speaker 1: to say earlier. Let me give you this, I mean,
Speaker 1: tune in real quick and sat tune. I wondered if
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to you guys about maybe doing that.
Speaker 1: I just thought that was kind of imperfection. It made
Speaker 1: for great music. Well, yeah, you know, this is being Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is me and him. I wouldn't have said that,
Speaker 1: but he would. And neither one or bad. Yeah, neither
Speaker 1: one or bad. And now the drummer quit, right, But
Speaker 1: that's kind of true. Well, okay, another not not an
Speaker 1: example of between Jack and myself, but myself and someone
Speaker 1: else who shall remain nameless, a producer and I was
Speaker 1: playing guitar in the control room with with the producer there,
Speaker 1: and it was kind of a really exciting part of
Speaker 1: the song, almost like a who part, and I was,
Speaker 1: I was way up here and I was, you know,
Speaker 1: playing like on an electric guitar, and that's pretty damn
Speaker 1: well in tune. But the guitar was usually, you know,
Speaker 1: on the twelfth fret or whatever they're it's really hard
Speaker 1: to keep it in tune. In fact, that's probably why
Speaker 1: Pete Town didn't liked to play those chords because they're exciting,
Speaker 1: because they're dissonant and you know, but he had me
Speaker 1: tune the chord up on the twelfth fret rick are
Speaker 1: you listening? He had he had me tune that fretted chord.
Speaker 1: So then later, I don't know, I'm screaming. Later, when
Speaker 1: the record was being mixed by by Dave Sarty, whose
Speaker 1: name can be mentioned here, he said, I said, what's
Speaker 1: going on with this song? Man? It's doesn't have this
Speaker 1: doesn't have any power to it. And he said, your
Speaker 1: guitars or everything's tuo in tune, and if you want,
Speaker 1: I can put a guitar on it that's slightly out
Speaker 1: of tune. And he did, and the song just came
Speaker 1: to life. Came to life. That's almost that's just sad.
Speaker 1: It is, I mean, it is, it was it made
Speaker 1: me very sad and I didn't have a very fun
Speaker 1: time making that record. Needless to say, well this you
Speaker 1: can transfer this over to our talk about modern country.
Speaker 1: When we did the second Racing Ters album at Blackbird Studio,
Speaker 1: which is the big studio in Nashville, most of the
Speaker 1: big country records were being recorded there, especially at the time,
Speaker 1: and they were explaining to us how they were doing
Speaker 1: the songs in the next studio over, like we were
Speaker 1: recording a drum track and a bass guitar and the
Speaker 1: band would play live together and then we would start
Speaker 1: building on it, like, oh, hey, that's two vocals. The
Speaker 1: live track was the song. That was it. It was done,
Speaker 1: and they were saying, oh, you know, at this point,
Speaker 1: we would just be getting the kick drum already in
Speaker 1: the in the over in this country album we're working on,
Speaker 1: they would do a drum beat. You'll play a drum beat,
Speaker 1: put it up on pro tools, put it on a
Speaker 1: grid so that every kick and snare is perfectly in time,
Speaker 1: and then they switch out the kick samples of the
Speaker 1: snare drum that they think is a good sounding snare
Speaker 1: drum sample, So every snare drum sounds basically exactly the
Speaker 1: same hit it exactly perfect time. There's no soul left
Speaker 1: in the recording at all. Even that's how you get
Speaker 1: played on country music radio. You have to do that
Speaker 1: stuff to this song, take all the thought of it.
Speaker 1: And it's sort of like, man, can you imagine if
Speaker 1: even the Beatles had been recorded that way? And there
Speaker 1: even hip hop those guys, those beats, guys are going,
Speaker 1: you know, going so far to make the beats imperfect,
Speaker 1: to make them nowadays we make them like swing and
Speaker 1: do weird not even in time. Sometimes it's awesome, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: But that's Jay Dillock who's the maybe maybe the one
Speaker 1: of the first to do that where they're really just
Speaker 1: kind of playing it off time and yeah and uh
Speaker 1: and uh and makeing it have some swing to it,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I mean they're trying, they're
Speaker 1: trying to go the other way with it, like they
Speaker 1: want this drum machine to sound like imperfect. You know, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's better. What's striving that? Is it? Is it being
Speaker 1: driven from the audience level or is it just driven
Speaker 1: or is it just a kind of thoughtless extension of
Speaker 1: expertise that I can because I can make a perfect day,
Speaker 1: will in my opinion, be a bad domino effect of
Speaker 1: what's selling, what's working, and all that one worked because
Speaker 1: we use this algorithm type thing and we put everything
Speaker 1: up on a grid and made everything that OCD. Two
Speaker 1: man people OCD in the business honestly thinking like you know,
Speaker 1: the engineer like I can't stand the bleed or I
Speaker 1: can't stand this this this snare is just kind of
Speaker 1: out of phase a little bit. You know, I want
Speaker 1: to replace it, and no one says anything. No one
Speaker 1: says no stop, no one ever. Everybody want to also
Speaker 1: describe it as a misuse of technology. Yeah, I agree, Rick,
Speaker 1: And it's like you can use like you know, nothing
Speaker 1: can be firm. If I say I've I've gotten punished
Speaker 1: a lot for being like this anti technology guy, I'm
Speaker 1: really not. And the point being is I think people
Speaker 1: misunderstand like I'm not saying, like if you record on
Speaker 1: computer or you're a lifeless piece of shit. It's like, no,
Speaker 1: you can record on potos and do some really beautiful
Speaker 1: things and you can use it properly if you all.
Speaker 1: But if you plug in and everything no one's playing
Speaker 1: in a room live together. Everything is a track individually.
Speaker 1: Everything has been has sixteen plugins and emulations on it
Speaker 1: of reverb with digital emulators, and on and on and on.
Speaker 1: You've you've clicked your mouse three million times before this
Speaker 1: song is quote unquote finished. Are you me? There's no
Speaker 1: way that's going to have any solar life to it.
Speaker 1: And if you took your favorite recordings of Otis Redding
Speaker 1: or the Beatles or whatever and tried to have do
Speaker 1: it in that same fashion, I don't think people would
Speaker 1: like the results. But that doesn't mean that you could.
Speaker 1: You can't use that technology and come up with beautiful things.
Speaker 1: You definitely can't, but you gotta be very diligent, I think,
Speaker 1: and what like what Rick said, that you can misuse
Speaker 1: any of that technology. It's a lot easier to misuse
Speaker 1: this technology now than it was when it was just
Speaker 1: tape machines. It was a lot harder to mess absolutely,
Speaker 1: you know absolutely, because you have more you have more control,
Speaker 1: which can be a dangerous thing. And there's no undo.
Speaker 1: There's no apple Z. You know, there wasn't no, I mean,
Speaker 1: there was no it was apple Z. So you had
Speaker 1: to commit. You had to commit, well, you guys are
Speaker 1: to play something well example, yeah, oh okay, So this
Speaker 1: was a song called Caroline and Drama that we mean,
Speaker 1: but it worked on my on my porch in Nashville
Speaker 1: when we're in our second album, and it became a
Speaker 1: sort of like a story telling song. We won't play
Speaker 1: the whole thing, it's a little bit long, but we'll
Speaker 1: play a little bit of it. And it was really
Speaker 1: us working together. I mean when this song probably would
Speaker 1: have been more of like a slide open slide, very
Speaker 1: trashy kind of song if I had done it in
Speaker 1: my other band, The White Stripes at the time, But
Speaker 1: when we did it together, it sort of turned into
Speaker 1: a storytelling kind of song. You're grateful for that, and
Speaker 1: it ways you don't, yes, because I didn't want the
Speaker 1: Rock and Tours to sound anything like The White Stripes.
Speaker 1: I want if we were going to start a new band,
Speaker 1: I don't want to sound anything like it. And then
Speaker 1: when I do solo record, I don't want it to
Speaker 1: sound anything like the Rock and Tours. And so anytime
Speaker 1: you do a project, you don't want it to have
Speaker 1: any real similarities. And I think maybe that's a little
Speaker 1: bit what's what's tough for anybody who's been in a
Speaker 1: band that connected with people in the mainstream especially, you know,
Speaker 1: I always think about that. Like, we toured with Robert
Speaker 1: Plant in South America, and I just love what he
Speaker 1: was doing solo, and you just get that vibe in
Speaker 1: the room that people just want to hear that led
Speaker 1: Zepplin song next. And it's a little bit that's a
Speaker 1: kind of curse of bands too, you know, beloved bands
Speaker 1: as a unit they liked. It's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's like maybe even part of a fantasy thing, like oh,
Speaker 1: I wish I was on the road with my four
Speaker 1: friends or something in a van or something. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Maybe there's some appeal of that, but there's this idea
Speaker 1: that this gang of guys or girls is up there
Speaker 1: against all odds, traveling in the country and and and
Speaker 1: and coming up these songs together. And when you're solo,
Speaker 1: it's almost like you're, oh, this is like an em
Speaker 1: Why why don't you just do the white stripes? Why
Speaker 1: don't want you just do that? That's what we want
Speaker 1: you to do. You know, why doesn't Robert Plant just
Speaker 1: reform led Zeppelin? Because that's what you want you to do.
Speaker 1: But I think people don't realize that it's not what
Speaker 1: the artists want. There are doesn't want to keep repeating them, says,
Speaker 1: can you imagine if Robert Denier had to keep playing
Speaker 1: Travis Bickle from textra Driver in every film for the
Speaker 1: rest of his life? I mean liked should that should
Speaker 1: be like that? It can't be in a band for
Speaker 1: more than five years. Five years actually be pretty good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not bad. You want to try it. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: Carolina and drama. It's not it's total Southern Gothic. It doesn't.
Speaker 1: But this, you know, this reminds me of the last
Speaker 1: time we chatted for that podcast episode on Elvis. You
Speaker 1: were talking about how the first time you went to
Speaker 1: Memphis he reminded you of Detroit, and then you had
Speaker 1: that whole thing about how Detroit is southern town. Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe it's not a stretch that you end up writing
Speaker 1: Southern gothic. Why Detroit a bunch of guys who right
Speaker 1: end up writting Southern gothic rock. Yeah, there's something about it,
Speaker 1: there's something there where there is a kind of literal connection.
Speaker 1: It does when you're in Memphis. I feel very much
Speaker 1: like it's like Detroit, New Orleans, Memphis, Detroit sort of
Speaker 1: have something straight down the country, some kind of blood
Speaker 1: vein going on. Yes, so you're painting the picture. We
Speaker 1: just played that song. It sounds very southern and we
Speaker 1: wrote it on a southern front porch in my house
Speaker 1: in Nashville. Well, why aren't we writing Stooges sounding heavy
Speaker 1: rock number? Maybe because we have acoustic guitars and we're
Speaker 1: sitting on a veranda or something. I don't know, but
Speaker 1: it might be that sometimes these environments saying you know
Speaker 1: that your environment influences you don't really know specifically what
Speaker 1: it is, but you know it's it's being influenced. I
Speaker 1: guess that song was written from beginning to end on
Speaker 1: your front porch and basically, yeah, for the most part,
Speaker 1: How does it when you guys write together? Is it?
Speaker 1: How does it work? Well? It's been different, like so
Speaker 1: this record, I think we did a lot of impromptu
Speaker 1: on the microphone, like just going out there and just
Speaker 1: kind of riffing, you know, just vocalizing I don't know,
Speaker 1: on a song and then picking out parts like oh
Speaker 1: that sounds nice or whatever. I'm specific I'm specifically remembering
Speaker 1: now Caroline Ramon will recept there, and it was it
Speaker 1: was sort of like say, we started off with Billy
Speaker 1: woke up in the back of his truck and I
Speaker 1: was like, Billy, that's a stupid name to put in there.
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, we'll find something else later. And and
Speaker 1: you know, I remember, actually Bob Dylan had come by
Speaker 1: the house a few months later. I have to read
Speaker 1: recorded and I played him that song and I was
Speaker 1: actually saying, hey, man, do you think it's actually went
Speaker 1: with an infigram may I You've used Billy in the
Speaker 1: song Tom Petty has in fifteen other songs. Off the
Speaker 1: top of my head, Billy Joe McAllister jumped off the
Speaker 1: tallatte Bridge. I was like, I'm trying to think of
Speaker 1: something different, but I can't think of a two syllable name.
Speaker 1: And he's like, He's like, I don't see a problem
Speaker 1: with that, and this has been validated, so okay. And
Speaker 1: then I was like, okay, then we're fine. Let's move on.
Speaker 1: And you've become friends with Dylan. We are we are
Speaker 1: he's well, he's he's my dad, he's he's my mentor.
Speaker 1: So I I don't insulted by saying we're friends, you know,
Speaker 1: in the state as if I'm anywhere near uh, but
Speaker 1: but he he uh, yeah, we do have a pretty
Speaker 1: nice relationship. He's nice to be able to play something
Speaker 1: like that and get it get feedback. But but yeah,
Speaker 1: but to talk about the Brendan and I like song
Speaker 1: right anyway? In that song, for example, I say, I
Speaker 1: go that one one thing was the name, and I okay,
Speaker 1: we'll think of something later. But then he's like, he
Speaker 1: will say, well, what's he gonna do now? You know? Okay,
Speaker 1: Well he just woke up in his truck and he
Speaker 1: went and saw, Oh there's a priest in his house.
Speaker 1: Now we're now we're feeding off each what's the priest doing? Oh, well,
Speaker 1: maybe he's fighting with someone else. There's a boyfriend there
Speaker 1: who was described by his boyfriend. How do you describe
Speaker 1: these people? Sum up their whole lives in one sentence?
Speaker 1: And I thought something like, oh he's got some blue
Speaker 1: tattoos that were given to him and hears young, Like
Speaker 1: maybe he's been in prison since he was a kid.
Speaker 1: Was a one way of saying he sent a rough life.
Speaker 1: It's hard to do that though. It's hard to sum
Speaker 1: up someone's life in a sound bite, but you kind
Speaker 1: of have to do that as a song. You have
Speaker 1: to come with these you have to make these concessions,
Speaker 1: you know, especially if you're talking about characters like that.
Speaker 1: But I think those things come out of me and
Speaker 1: him bouncing it off of each other. If I had
Speaker 1: been sitting there by myself, the song would have came
Speaker 1: out totally different and the characters would have done different things.
Speaker 1: How often are the songs that you write about a
Speaker 1: fictional character. Brendan is different, and he can tell you
Speaker 1: a different story about his own, But I almost never
Speaker 1: try to write about myself because it's just so it's
Speaker 1: too boring for me. I feel it's like it's boring,
Speaker 1: and also if it's I'm gonna end up probably writing
Speaker 1: about something negative or sad, and I don't want to
Speaker 1: keep reliving that for rest of my life. Every time
Speaker 1: I played this song live, it just seems like And
Speaker 1: then also I think it's too overdone. Nowadays. I think
Speaker 1: everyone sort of expects that the new Taylor Swift song
Speaker 1: is going to be about her dating John Mayer or
Speaker 1: something like that, and I think maybe it'd be better
Speaker 1: if people wrote about something different. I read in the
Speaker 1: book something very interesting. It was like if you had
Speaker 1: asked kids in high school one hundred years ago to
Speaker 1: write a song who knew nothing about writing music, that
Speaker 1: ninety percent of them or ninety five percent of them
Speaker 1: would have written about the Titanic or a mining disaster
Speaker 1: or something big that was to the community. But if
Speaker 1: you wrote asked a hundred high school kids right now
Speaker 1: to write a song who nothing about music or songwriting,
Speaker 1: they would all one writes songs about themselves. And that's
Speaker 1: something that I don't really have an opinion on about
Speaker 1: what that means about how culture has changed, but I'm
Speaker 1: sure everybody listening to that statement could probably infer lots
Speaker 1: of narcissism and things that to do with how we
Speaker 1: attack technology with social media and now these days, et cetera,
Speaker 1: et cetera. Whereas before a hundred years ago, and most
Speaker 1: people hadn't even been more than five miles from their
Speaker 1: own home, they would assume that there was this grandiose
Speaker 1: life outside of their small town that they know very
Speaker 1: little about. It seems very exotic, but that's all at
Speaker 1: our fingertips. Now. I want to dwell on this remote
Speaker 1: because it's super interesting, this idea of the of this switch.
Speaker 1: From one hundred years ago, the kids would have written
Speaker 1: narratives about some world event, and today would be about themselves,
Speaker 1: because I was just thinking as you were saying that,
Speaker 1: was there a one hundred years ago, you know, after
Speaker 1: Katrina there would have been a top ten song equivalent
Speaker 1: or about Katrina or about you know, we would all
Speaker 1: know someone would have memorialized nine eleven or I was thinking,
Speaker 1: you know, all these that wave of police shootings over there,
Speaker 1: you know there is one, there's one, there's that genomen
Speaker 1: a song. But but the idea that you know, hip
Speaker 1: hop could be a another version of hip hop is
Speaker 1: would be this would be a genre full of social protests. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I tried to work with Jay Z on a hip
Speaker 1: hop version of stagger Lee, which I thought I was
Speaker 1: telling Jay like and I wish you could have helped
Speaker 1: me with this riction make this actually come alive. But
Speaker 1: it never worked. It never happened. But I was trying
Speaker 1: to say, you know, Jay, this this is a song
Speaker 1: about a guy who was killed over a five dollar hat.
Speaker 1: And these are mythical folk heroes that should be mythical
Speaker 1: hip hop. Uh heroes, Where are where are the mythical
Speaker 1: hip hop characters? There's a lot of people in hip
Speaker 1: hop who talk about themselves. Most of it is the
Speaker 1: MC talking from his own point of view. Nothing wrong
Speaker 1: with that, But wouldn't it be awesome if there was
Speaker 1: also mythical hip hop characters? And I thought, God, stagger
Speaker 1: Lee is just it's just waiting to be done in
Speaker 1: a hip hop style. You know that, it's it's got everything,
Speaker 1: It's got everything that's talked about in modern hip hop,
Speaker 1: and say, all you gotta do is modernize it. Take
Speaker 1: us full circle to modernizing all things. But and he
Speaker 1: was interested in for a second, we just didn't never
Speaker 1: got I got to come together and finish it. I
Speaker 1: ended up doing on my band The Dead Weathers Out,
Speaker 1: and I I ended up doing a version called three Dollar
Speaker 1: Hat off of it because I didn't want to see
Speaker 1: the music go to waste. I'm curious about you guys,
Speaker 1: to talk a little bit more about the you know,
Speaker 1: you're talking about the music that you grew up with.
Speaker 1: I'm curious about the music that net that at the
Speaker 1: specific point you are in your career, that really affects
Speaker 1: you and moves you. I mean, I like to pick
Speaker 1: up on a little moments you're like, oh that was like,
Speaker 1: say I heard Billy Billie Eilish song on our day.
Speaker 1: The I don't know the name of the type, but
Speaker 1: I think it's a we're when we go to sleep,
Speaker 1: when we all falls it, where do we go? I think?
Speaker 1: And what I liked was the way she recorded the vocals,
Speaker 1: and to me, like that was some great use of technology.
Speaker 1: However she recorded her vocals, I'm assuming it's approach tools
Speaker 1: thing that it was like, oh man, beautiful way that
Speaker 1: it sounds like a synthesizer. But it's also sort of
Speaker 1: like four of her singing layered together, very very cool,
Speaker 1: very well done, impressive, And you remember those kind of things,
Speaker 1: like the tone of something, and that's what bums you out.
Speaker 1: It's like when everything is electronic or electric that you
Speaker 1: don't know. People used to say, Wow, how did they
Speaker 1: make the sound? How did the Beatles make that sound
Speaker 1: at that one part in the song? Are they playing?
Speaker 1: I think that's backwards guitar or whatever it was at
Speaker 1: that time, some technique that or say, like in a movie,
Speaker 1: like how did they force that horse carriage off a cliff?
Speaker 1: Did they really kill those horses in that movie? You know?
Speaker 1: But now it's just a one sentence thing. It was
Speaker 1: done on the computer. Hey Jack, how do you feel
Speaker 1: about the Donna summer song, I feel love, I love it.
Speaker 1: I love it, and as I read more about it
Speaker 1: and I think what is it? Brian Eno brought it
Speaker 1: into the studio and said de Bowie that this is
Speaker 1: the future of music, and it was. There was no
Speaker 1: what was the first song? It was all completely electronic, right, Rick, Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: And again to speak to what you said before, Rick,
Speaker 1: a good use of technology versus bad use of technology?
Speaker 1: That yes, Usually when the song something's the first, that's
Speaker 1: time has ever done. First time they built a Fender
Speaker 1: telecaster or a or a Fender or a reverb amp,
Speaker 1: like the first out of the gate is usually the best,
Speaker 1: and that that was one of those first out of
Speaker 1: the gate moments, like oh wow, look what you could
Speaker 1: do with electronic music or craft work and all the
Speaker 1: things that came throughout that scenario of there's some amazing
Speaker 1: things going to be done. And then but that's the
Speaker 1: same thing with you know, say, like a grunge movement
Speaker 1: comes out, all the dirty kind of raw signing rock
Speaker 1: and roll comes out, and then you've got to listen
Speaker 1: to seven years of the imitators kind of watering it down.
Speaker 1: No big deal. That's how music has always gone it's
Speaker 1: always gone up in hills and valleys like that. There
Speaker 1: should be a there should you know the Germans words
Speaker 1: for everything. There should be a German word for the
Speaker 1: person who comes after the originator and does a bad
Speaker 1: version of the things. Yeah, we'll be back with more
Speaker 1: from the Rack and Tours after the break. We're back
Speaker 1: with more from the Rack and tours. But can you
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about and I'd love if you
Speaker 1: paid a little bit of it. This song I don't
Speaker 1: feel like trying sometimes or some days. Some days I
Speaker 1: don't feel like trying on some days it seems like
Speaker 1: the most personal song on Neil. Yeah it is. I didn't.
Speaker 1: I didn't think much of it when I was writing.
Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't think that it was necessarily so personal.
Speaker 1: I mean I think there's kind of let me just
Speaker 1: be clear, I think I don't. I don't write strictly autobiographically.
Speaker 1: I mean I think I I tell stories as well.
Speaker 1: They're not they're not stories with you know, necessarily there
Speaker 1: are lots of different characters, and the characters maybe morph
Speaker 1: into other characters, and I take liberties and artistic license
Speaker 1: and you know, So that being said, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I think I kind of felt, you know,
Speaker 1: I was just kind of feeling at a having a
Speaker 1: bad day, you know, maybe more than just a bad day.
Speaker 1: But and I started to write this song, and then
Speaker 1: and then of course it's it's good to embellish and
Speaker 1: make things just get just twist the knife even more.
Speaker 1: And you know, so I I kind of I feel
Speaker 1: like I just take liberties and songs like maybe try
Speaker 1: to make it more shocking or more sad, or more
Speaker 1: this or that, and then it people are asking me
Speaker 1: about it, you know, like you know, it's it's wow,
Speaker 1: it's really sounds almost suicidal if you really wanted to
Speaker 1: throw it. When you're in a band like this, where
Speaker 1: there's two singers and two songwriters, you can really throw
Speaker 1: a spanner in the works. And you'd have me sing
Speaker 1: it if it's that personal, right, and then see what
Speaker 1: happens there. That could be an interesting twist. Maybe we
Speaker 1: should have done that. Yeah, And we've talked, we've always
Speaker 1: talked about doing that. We just never got around to
Speaker 1: doing that. Just singing each other's songs, like you know,
Speaker 1: I mean singing singing each other's lyrics. Will you play
Speaker 1: a little bit of that song some days? Yeah, whoa have.
Speaker 1: Have either of you written a song before where it's
Speaker 1: two distinct parts like that, where it's almost like the
Speaker 1: second half of the song answers the first half and
Speaker 1: the whole feeling of the song changes. Are there any
Speaker 1: others like that in either of your catalogs? I think
Speaker 1: I do that a lot. It's kind of a little
Speaker 1: go to of mine, like a big outro, big like
Speaker 1: you know, but he means that that that was an answer,
Speaker 1: well answer, yeah. I don't remember doing that before. Maybe
Speaker 1: maybe yeah, maybe not direct directly like an answer thing,
Speaker 1: But I do like it interesting that it's like the
Speaker 1: first half of the song is that, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't care and I'm wallowing, and then the second half
Speaker 1: of the song is but and it's it's the second
Speaker 1: half is we shall overcome. It's interesting to have both
Speaker 1: of those in the same song. It is I don't know.
Speaker 1: It just might be the first only time that you
Speaker 1: are I've ever done that. Did you start by thinking
Speaker 1: you're gonna have the answer or did you write the
Speaker 1: first half? I think it needs an answer that was written.
Speaker 1: The second half was written on the spot spontaneously, which
Speaker 1: I thought it was getting too I thought it was
Speaker 1: getting too bummed out, like we were all recording it.
Speaker 1: It was it wasn't. It also wasn't coming very easily
Speaker 1: for us all, you know, So I was and I
Speaker 1: was getting nervous that maybe people were losing interest in
Speaker 1: this song that I had such high hopes for and
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. So I think that just after a
Speaker 1: take that didn't go so well, I think I said
Speaker 1: here right now, not did yet. That just came out
Speaker 1: of nowhere yeah yet, And then they started playing along
Speaker 1: not dead yet, dear right now, I'm not by the end,
Speaker 1: we're singing dear right now and I'm not dead yet.
Speaker 1: So we were like, whoa, let's you know, we got
Speaker 1: to use that. That's great. Yeah, And I was glad
Speaker 1: because it's a happy ending, you know. But these are
Speaker 1: things that would not happen. I don't know. If I wouldn't,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't invite yourself recording your own solo stuff, you
Speaker 1: wouldn't do. Those things wouldn't have happened. No, or if
Speaker 1: I had written it, it it would become a part that
Speaker 1: would be you know, just yeah, it's funny how the
Speaker 1: last I mean, this is gonna like a totally tried observation.
Speaker 1: But I've always been fascinated by it. You could have
Speaker 1: a song like that, the bulk of which is this
Speaker 1: dense downer, and then you stick the little thing on
Speaker 1: the end and all of that is forgotten exactly the
Speaker 1: end you know. I was class was Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it's almost like it just gets you, it gets erased.
Speaker 1: The emotional arc of music is so fascinating that you
Speaker 1: can you can kind of rescue, you can take somewhere
Speaker 1: to the band's melody. Yeah, it's with that melody, you
Speaker 1: can do that. I mean, I can do that right now.
Speaker 1: Just just bummed it out right. But let's give me
Speaker 1: all right, So there's like that's the most basic trick ever.
Speaker 1: But you know it's all in there. It's great. I mean,
Speaker 1: Mozart knew it, you know, they all knew it how
Speaker 1: to just pull the heart strings. And it was just
Speaker 1: kind of just popped in my head. Was that, you know,
Speaker 1: speaking of like novelty songs and uh with deeper metaphors
Speaker 1: so hidden back there and changing things again. But just
Speaker 1: thinking of Loretta Linton's songs called Fist City. If you
Speaker 1: know this song and to the choruses, I don't know
Speaker 1: the chors exactly, but his chorus is, uh, and if
Speaker 1: you don't want to go to Fist City, you better
Speaker 1: detour around my town because I'll grab you by the
Speaker 1: hair of the head and I'll lift you off of
Speaker 1: the ground, just like a novelty thing, like oh, okay,
Speaker 1: you're gonna I'm gonna kick your ass if you mess
Speaker 1: around with man. But then she says like this double chorus,
Speaker 1: which is she's so brillian. Now she goes, I ain't
Speaker 1: saying my baby's a saint because of hate, and Nettie
Speaker 1: won't get around with a giddy. But I'm here to
Speaker 1: tell you, Galt, you better watch your your faces. You
Speaker 1: stay away from my man if you don't want to
Speaker 1: go to fist City. So uh, it's like she admits, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know he's screwing around and I'm should be mad
Speaker 1: at him, but yeah, I'm gonna talk about that right now,
Speaker 1: we're talking about you. That's brilliant songwriting. Yeah, so good.
Speaker 1: I'm curious about all of you. Are have lived through
Speaker 1: a period where the way in which people experienced music
Speaker 1: has your audience experiences music has changed fundamentally, spanning quite
Speaker 1: a Yeah, like in twenty years we've gone from buying
Speaker 1: the album and listening to it from the game to end,
Speaker 1: yeah to to I'm assuming most it's almost all spot
Speaker 1: you know, streaming and individual streaming and vinyls. How does
Speaker 1: how has that affected? Has it affected you? Has it
Speaker 1: affected the way audiences react to your music when you
Speaker 1: play live? We thought, we thought, say, like when we're like, say,
Speaker 1: when the Patrick and Jack ran the Green Horns, I
Speaker 1: was in a way straps on the Detroit garage rock
Speaker 1: scene was cooking that that. We thought we had this
Speaker 1: problem of what they call Golden age, thinking that everything
Speaker 1: was always better in the past. Oh god, the bands
Speaker 1: in the sixties they had it so good, and it's like, wow,
Speaker 1: wouldn't it be great to be from that period? Then
Speaker 1: this lay mass eighties and nineties blah blah blah digital
Speaker 1: crap that we had to grow up in. And then
Speaker 1: you been like, we thought that was bad. Jesus man,
Speaker 1: there's nobody's nobody's sitting down running a song anymore, you know,
Speaker 1: with a with a piano. And then we're gonna say, like,
Speaker 1: you see something like a Brandy Carlisle on the on
Speaker 1: the ground, He's like, oh thank god, you know, and
Speaker 1: you know, what it is you see finally is talent.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think you finally see somebody who's truly gifted,
Speaker 1: and you're like alone to pieces because what we're used
Speaker 1: to is mediocrity. I mean just you know, whatever's sort
Speaker 1: of viral and popular on the internet, which is always
Speaker 1: just so lame, you know, nothing to do with skill
Speaker 1: or creation or art or you want to say, like,
Speaker 1: I want someone to sit down and love their craft
Speaker 1: and love their work and their art form, and they're
Speaker 1: expressing it in a way where they can figure out
Speaker 1: how to blow your mind. With the tools that they're using.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if they're analog or digital or not.
Speaker 1: Can they blow their mind? Billy I. The way she
Speaker 1: recorded her vocals on that song on her the year
Speaker 1: she blew My mind, The way she record your vocals.
Speaker 1: She used it technology to her advantage and did something beautiful,
Speaker 1: and she's trying to blow your mind. Yeah, but there's
Speaker 1: not enough of that. Feels like maybe maybe when you
Speaker 1: look back and say, oh god, it seems like every
Speaker 1: time someone turned their head in the sixties, someone was
Speaker 1: might know some amazing song that we had greatness to
Speaker 1: it and would last forever. Maybe though that we're only
Speaker 1: remembering the good stuff. I don't know that's we're definitely
Speaker 1: remembering the good stuff. And the bar to get in
Speaker 1: the game in the sixties was much higher, Yeah, because
Speaker 1: the cost it took to make a record to get signed. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you had to really be good just to get signed. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And if you got to really have your you had
Speaker 1: to have your act together by the time you got
Speaker 1: to see like a guys, we got one chance. We
Speaker 1: better rehearse the ship and have it done right. And
Speaker 1: if you're gonna sing, you're gonna sing from the heart,
Speaker 1: and you're gonna or really impress them because there's only
Speaker 1: this one moment. You don't have all we can go
Speaker 1: back and overdub and fix it and click and click whatever.
Speaker 1: The beas recorded the first album in nine hours. You
Speaker 1: know that was it. Yeah, let's up in first album
Speaker 1: thirty six hours, blacks I was first album twenty four hours,
Speaker 1: students first, on and on and on and on all that.
Speaker 1: The other side of it is that because the entry
Speaker 1: bar is low, now, yes, there may be more noise
Speaker 1: and more not good stuff, but you might hear something
Speaker 1: that you might not have heard that wouldn't have made
Speaker 1: the bar on a technical level, but it's a different
Speaker 1: kind of talent. Like when I when I hear someone
Speaker 1: like young Thug, it's really exciting to me. In the
Speaker 1: old days, someone who you couldn't understand what they were saying,
Speaker 1: or maybe they don't even know what they're saying, might
Speaker 1: not get it, you know, might not get to record.
Speaker 1: That sounds like you, young Thug, and you evokes an
Speaker 1: idea that you trust him and you believe him. Right, Yes, well,
Speaker 1: that's that's what I'm sings is when you when you
Speaker 1: believe somebody, however, whatever tricks they're using to make you
Speaker 1: think that they're believable and should be trusted, or if
Speaker 1: they actually are trustable, whatever it is, you trust Young Doug,
Speaker 1: and now you're ready to open the door and listen.
Speaker 1: Listen to anything else he has to say. If someone
Speaker 1: comes out of gate and I like, I don't trust them,
Speaker 1: I kind of almost ex them out and I'm never
Speaker 1: going to really dig what they're doing, no matter what
Speaker 1: they do, no matter how beautiful it is, it's coming
Speaker 1: from somebody I don't trust. So okay, on the on
Speaker 1: the trust front, we mentioned earlier that people who are
Speaker 1: technically great are harder to trust because there's so much
Speaker 1: craft in it, it's harder to believe them. Who are
Speaker 1: the people who you think of as technically great, yet
Speaker 1: you still trust them? That's a great question. Let me
Speaker 1: think for two beyond Brandy Carlisle, because she's right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think Paul McCartney maybe, I think, you know, he's
Speaker 1: famously the technic, the more technical one guy my favorite beatle,
Speaker 1: But what's my favorite beatle? No doubt Paul, But I
Speaker 1: believe him with all my heart. I mean and and
Speaker 1: a lot of times I think I'm just interested in
Speaker 1: the way that an artist evolves, even when they're older,
Speaker 1: and how they get sort of sort of lame. It's
Speaker 1: still kind of like Paul McCarney, Like I still want
Speaker 1: to hear what he's up to, what he's doing. You know,
Speaker 1: I might include Simon and Garfuncle, even though Garfuncle is
Speaker 1: the voice you think of more in Simon and Garfuncle,
Speaker 1: the more recognizable voice, Yeah is Garfuncles. Paul's harmony is incredible,
Speaker 1: and Paul's songs are incredible. But when I listened to
Speaker 1: those records, I believe those words, like I I go
Speaker 1: with them. Yeah, there was almost these phenominalies like that
Speaker 1: that kind of started off like acts that didn't really
Speaker 1: know what they wanted to do. They knew they love music,
Speaker 1: but they didn't know what exactly their voice was, and
Speaker 1: they found their voice like I think Dylan. If folk
Speaker 1: music hadn't been happening, and the same thing with the
Speaker 1: Paul Simon and Garfuncle, both those acts. If folk music
Speaker 1: hadn't been the hot thing at that moment, they could
Speaker 1: have easily if they'd been ten years before, they would
Speaker 1: have been rock and rollers like Little Richard and Jean Vincent.
Speaker 1: I mean a matter of fact, what they were called
Speaker 1: Sumon Garf were called Tom and Jerry when they first
Speaker 1: came out, and they became because the folk moment. They
Speaker 1: became believable and down to earth and soulful folks, singers
Speaker 1: that you believed what they were saying, that they had knowledge,
Speaker 1: they were experts about something that you didn't know about.
Speaker 1: You had that that trust in this person who's communicating
Speaker 1: to you through music. You trust them and you believe
Speaker 1: that they know something that you don't know. And by
Speaker 1: that and the sign of that trust is for Simon
Speaker 1: and Garfunkel is by kind of the middle of their career.
Speaker 1: Of his career, Simon Foots gotten album called Grace Landing,
Speaker 1: which he takes you to South Africa and writ it's
Speaker 1: about essentially people from New York City. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: the most hilarious, brilliant you know, left hand turn, Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it totally works. It's probably one of the greatest albums
Speaker 1: ever made, really Graceland and and I have. I listened
Speaker 1: to it a few months ago and realize, oh my god,
Speaker 1: there's not There's also a Zaidiko song on here, there's
Speaker 1: a Los Lobos is playing on here. It's not just African,
Speaker 1: It's like all kinds of music going on that record.
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I didn't even remember that being part
Speaker 1: of that record. I thought it was all just so
Speaker 1: Lady Smith, Black Mumbazo and that. But there's really a
Speaker 1: lot going on, and there's a lot of New York
Speaker 1: going on in there. And on top of it, you
Speaker 1: name the album Grace Awesome. There's a girl from New
Speaker 1: York City who calls himself the Human Trampoline. That's that's
Speaker 1: the one from Christ's like I had a I had
Speaker 1: I had like an ignorant, naive revelation in that uh,
Speaker 1: the Mississippi Delta was shining like a national guitar. I've
Speaker 1: been singing that line walking around the house for thirty
Speaker 1: years or whatever, and it was like about two three
Speaker 1: years ago, like, oh shit, a national guitar. That's a
Speaker 1: name brand of a silver dough bro which is shiny.
Speaker 1: I thought he meant, like the big picture of the
Speaker 1: royal a national guitar. We were all playing this giantantic
Speaker 1: guitar together as the nation. That reference was made for
Speaker 1: you exactly exactly, and I blew it. I'm middle it.
Speaker 1: Should we do one? Should we do one more song?
Speaker 1: How about an only child? Kind of feeling child? Pretty cool? Yeah,
Speaker 1: this feels like a mixture of what Brendan was talking about,
Speaker 1: the personal thing, but mixed with us writing together and
Speaker 1: and it becoming a bigger song than it started as.
Speaker 1: Maybe let me start together? Right? Yeah? I wanted to
Speaker 1: and this is my favorite lyrics. Sorry no, but I can't.
Speaker 1: We're gonna do that. I can't do the solo? And
Speaker 1: would you would you say that you care that you
Speaker 1: give extra emphasis or extra care to the vocal line
Speaker 1: that brings in the solo? Is that a thing like
Speaker 1: the last vocal line? Right? Before the solo happens. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because you're sort of like, uh, you've got to set
Speaker 1: it up. Yeah, because it's uh, I think that's cool.
Speaker 1: I like to do that live, Like it's kind of
Speaker 1: it's kind of like that old school thing, like you know,
Speaker 1: it's come back home again to get his laundry done.
Speaker 1: Look out, look out, now go go you know you
Speaker 1: know how that used to do that? Or you know
Speaker 1: I can play? Is that Stevie Wonder my favorite? Go
Speaker 1: Blue Caps? Go go say the name of the band.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine like Bober Plancard go, let's up and goes.
Speaker 1: Thanks to Jack White, Brendan Benson, and the rest of
Speaker 1: the Rack and Tours for hanging out and playing with us,
Speaker 1: and a special thanks to engineers this episode two, Bill
Speaker 1: Skibby and Detroit and Leonardo Beccafici aka Fresco in Italy.
Speaker 1: On the next episode, Rick talks with Tyler the creator
Speaker 1: about his new album Igor. Broken Record is produced with
Speaker 1: help from Jason Gambrell and Milo Bell for pushkin in
Speaker 1: the streets is it Broken Record podcast dot com for
Speaker 1: playlists from every episode and follow us on Instagram at
Speaker 1: the Broken Record. Our theme music is by Kenny Beats.
Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond,