WEBVTT - Jack White & Brendan Benson of the Raconteurs 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:14.320 Pushkin. I'm at Jack White's house in Detroit. There's over 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:16.840 a dozen of us there. Jack's eighty eight year old 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:18.800 mom is in the front room, greeting everyone as they 0:00:18.840 --> 0:00:21.800 come in. His older brothers there too, sawars, some folks 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:25.119 from the Third Man record label, Jack Runs, Malcolm Gladwell 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:28.240 and I are sitting in amazement. The Rack and Tours, 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:32.479 Patrick Keeler, Jack, Lawrence, Brendan Benson, Jack White are hanging 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.400 on Jack's sun porch, warming up, playing the blues of 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:39.160 the thirty or so number one Billboard albums. This year, 0:00:39.360 --> 0:00:42.360 only four have been rock albums, and one was The 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:46.680 Rack and Tours Help a Stranger. Jack and Malcolm first 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:49.720 met in Nashville to talk about Elvis for Malcolm's other podcast, 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.680 Revisionist History. Malcolm got the grand tour of Jackson State 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:55.720 in Tennessee, where he and most of the band live 0:00:55.800 --> 0:00:59.080 now full time. After that, Malcolm would jump at any 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:01.560 chance to hang with Jack. So when the invite came 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:03.640 to tape a broken record episode with the band in 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:07.280 their native Detroit, we leaped at it. Even Rick Rubin 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:09.040 phoned in for it. You'll hear him turn up a 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:15.160 few minutes into the conversation. This is a fun one. 0:01:16.720 --> 0:01:19.560 This is Broken Record Season three. Liner notes for the 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:26.600 Digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Just a quick note here. 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:28.880 You can listen to all of the music mentioned in 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:31.520 this episode on our playlist, which you can find a 0:01:31.560 --> 0:01:35.319 link to in the show notes for licensing reasons, each 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:38.080 time a song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:44.880 this sound effect. All right, enjoy the episode. Before Malcolm 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:47.039 and Rick's conversation with the Rack and tours, the band 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:49.600 kick things off with a great cover of Donovan's Hey 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:55.160 Jip Dig the Slowness. Wait, that's the one where you 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:58.480 thought of swapping out Cadillac for Tesla. Yeah, we were 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.000 talking about it. I want don't we modernize if we're 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:03.600 doing the cover of this. You know, all the old songs, 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:06.680 the rock and roll and blue songs are always Cadillac, 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:08.919 this and that. So this this song had Cadillac and 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:12.160 Chevrolet and the original head I think the Mustang was 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:14.280 a Memphis Mini song. I think he was taking his 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.799 thing from and we're talking about Donovan, and so we thought, 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:19.600 why don't we modernize, Let's let's put it in something 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.760 like But we're like, oh, this just sounds silly. And 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:25.639 then we just brought up this whole conversation of why 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.799 why is it such a hard thing to interject modern 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:33.320 technology into the lyrics of rock and roll or blue songs? 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:37.720 Because hip hop and country can do it and I 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:40.840 and they're expected to almost expected to you, like in 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:42.760 modern countries. I mean, I don't know, you could look 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:44.160 some up or something, because I don't really I'm not 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:46.960 that familiar with modern country lyrics. But when I'm listening 0:02:46.960 --> 0:02:50.280 to the radio Nashville, it's always like something like you 0:02:50.320 --> 0:02:53.800 know all that shit, and like, yeah, I hope so, 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:57.600 because that's a that's a hit, that's a hit. We laugh, 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.560 But that actually, you know what I mean, like why 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:02.600 are they? And then hip hop it's you can drop 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:04.560 any modern reference and you're expected to its supposed to 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:08.720 like whatever's hip this week, you know, let alone, uh 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.320 not twenty nineteen. So but when rock and roll, if 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:14.800 you do it, it's kind of it's kind of goofy. 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.800 I mean, it brings up the idea, like I was 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:23.400 talking sending you the idea of this phonograph lyrics, you know, hello, hello, 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.320 oh Rick, oh hey Rick, Hello, Hello, how are you? 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:32.000 We're all good? We're sitting here with the Rack on tours. Hey, Rick, Hey, Rick, Hey, 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.440 what's happening? They just played a it's an old Donovan 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:39.480 song which references I'll buy you a Cadillac, and we 0:03:39.520 --> 0:03:41.840 were asking the question why can't it be updated to 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:46.360 I'll buy you a Tesla AX? And why why is 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:48.160 it you can't? Why is it you can do modern 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:51.560 references in country songs but not in rock and roll songs. 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:53.640 That was the question on the table. I think you 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:57.440 can know. I would love to. I would love to 0:03:57.480 --> 0:04:01.320 hear Jack singing about the Tesla AX. Yeah. I'm gonna 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:03.440 give you example. I'm gonna do uh, just a second 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:07.400 of a Phonograph blues, Robert Johnson Phonograph Blues. So we 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:11.440 got like a But if that was a hip hop track, 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:14.040 I'm sure you know this Rick better than the most 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.080 you could say that if you put the right new 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:20.680 beat on it, not only is it gonna work, it's 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:24.040 actually expected. But there's something about rock and roll and 0:04:24.120 --> 0:04:26.239 blues to me. I always feel like, if you can't 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:28.880 there has to be a mechanical thing to have it 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:31.600 have romance to it, Like if it doesn't have if 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.040 it's if you yeah, everybody's still singing about trains, and 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:36.240 even guys never even seen a train in their life 0:04:36.480 --> 0:04:38.240 can write a song and put a train in there. 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:42.120 But if you say mono rail people mover or whatever, 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:45.080 and if that doesn't make any sense, it's not romantic. 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:47.400 If you we're talking about electric car set of an 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.440 old Cadillac, all of a sudden, it's not romantic. But 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:53.719 then ultimately you limit the rock and roll vocabulary to that. 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:56.240 I don't think. I don't think agree with you. I 0:04:56.240 --> 0:05:00.160 think that's a that's a self imposed limitation that maybe 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.279 that's what it's gonna take. Maybe that's what the reinvention 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:05.920 of rock and roll sounds like. It's modern references. I 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:07.800 don't know, Almo, I think rock and roll has this 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.719 like lyric Lyrically, it's always been mysterious. I think, you know, 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:13.920 like almost like a I mean, even the Blues they 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:17.240 were like speaking like you know, such slang. I mean, 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:19.440 it was like, you know, you couldn't easily understand what 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.240 they're talking about. And it's continued on, like what's Mick 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:24.240 Jagger mean by that? But if Robert Johnson is when 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:27.320 he's saying, Beatrice, I love your phonograph or whatever he's 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:29.279 talking that was a modern thing right then and there. 0:05:29.279 --> 0:05:30.880 That was a hot thing to have. A lot only 0:05:31.000 --> 0:05:33.359 rich people had record players in a lot of prices. 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:36.000 Maybe more than that, maybe it was, like you know, 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.919 in that day, a way of saying, you know, I 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:42.560 don't know, like secretly I'm in love with you, or 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:44.760 I don't know. Maybe it meant even more like it was. 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:48.839 I'm just I'm talking about just the literal reference of 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:53.360 he's referencing a modern technological device a phonograph right at 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.080 that time. If you wrote a blue song quote unquote 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:59.000 right now and you mentioned iPod or listening to streaming 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.320 service on your I phone, that's not romantic. It's just 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.440 it's kind of sounds silly, and if you and maybe 0:06:05.440 --> 0:06:09.200 it's something to contextualize with rock and rolls place in 0:06:09.320 --> 0:06:12.080 culture now in twenty nineteen, compared to hip hop or 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:15.080 or country music or modern country music, which I don't 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:17.919 really think is even even is country music really anymore, 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:21.040 But the fact that they're expected to make really current 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:23.159 modern references in country music for it to be a 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.839 hit song, it's expectation. But those guys, I think Williams 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:29.440 wouldn't been caught dead not singing out of Cadillac or something, 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:31.880 you know like that. It is this a problem for 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:34.960 that kind you're talking about? Sort of the rock and 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:40.200 roll vernacular has a set of very specific reference. Is 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:42.599 that a problem that you can't kind of updated easily? 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:46.280 You did put clicking and swiping into a rock Yeah, 0:06:46.320 --> 0:06:51.720 we can't be done. We had a song on there 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:55.839 was said Brendan actually came up with lyricists, don't bother me. 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:59.120 It's so but that's that's what was in there. And 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:01.599 he came up he said that though clicking and swiping, 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:03.560 And I thought that was funny because it had like 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:08.240 multiple meanings. It's not pointing to a specific cultural artifact. 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:13.080 If you're playing with words, you're winking. Yeah, I did. 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:15.240 I did a bid women sound song few years ago 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.880 called three Women, and his was like and when I 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:21.560 did it was I got three women red, Blondie and 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:24.000 Brunette and I when I went to the five, I said, 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:27.440 and I got away with it there that was a 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:29.320 blue song done in sort of like a funky way. 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.920 And I said digital photograph And I was purposely trying 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:36.880 to break this idea in might have but let's go 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:39.480 back to he made that comment just now, Jack that yeah, 0:07:39.800 --> 0:07:42.560 and a lot of what passes for country today, he said, 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:46.000 isn't really country. Yeah, talk a little bit about the distinction, 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:48.320 you see. You seem to say that there are some 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:52.360 rules that apply to country. That yeah, you can talk specifically. 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:54.400 I think someone who's in a country artist might be 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:55.960 able to tell you better than I would have. But 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:58.320 I think they'd also be afraid to say it because 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:00.800 they're very I think they live in fear in that 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:04.200 world because they only have one radio format, it's country, 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.440 and if they don't stick to the formula, they will 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.120 not get radio airplay if they try to do like 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.440 if a modern country artist without naming any names whatever, 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:16.160 were to do like a record an album as the 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:18.040 same way Hank Williams or Loretta Lynn had done in 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.880 the sixties or fifties, then they would call it roots 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:22.920 rock or Americana and it would never get played and 0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:24.280 it would never get played on the radio, and it 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:26.800 would become Okay, he's trying to go roots you now, 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:29.720 and it would be a failure, I think, And I 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:32.040 think that's the scares them. They have to use really 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:35.960 computerized they're adapting, they're adapting really quickly. They're evolving, you know, 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:39.440 Like I mean, the country music itself is changing. I 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.400 mean has been changing for so for so long now, 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:46.240 and finally it's become anything goes. It's pop, it's rap, 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:49.160 it's whatever, heavy metal, so I mean it's I mean, 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:51.240 maybe it's kind of evolving for that read out of 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:55.280 necessity because there's only there. They only have this corner 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.800 of the market or whatever, you know, so in order 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.959 to survive country music. Well that's how big. That's how 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.679 why Taylor's swift got so more it's more gigantic as 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:10.240 distanced away from country and became more pop and succeeded 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:12.320 in doing so. Which is I mean, you're talking about 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:14.080 the most loyal fan base, and think in all the 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.080 genres is country music fans. I mean, if they like 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:17.719 you for one day, they like you to the day 0:09:17.760 --> 0:09:20.559 they die. And the worst star where we came from 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:23.200 the garage rock hipsters who like you this week and 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:25.920 don't like you next week. Yeah, and that idea of 0:09:26.240 --> 0:09:30.480 that you toggle back and forth between Nashville and Detroit 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.880 is really interesting. I'm just curious about how that affects 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:39.560 the way you make music. I think one thing that 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:42.080 happens is you know, there's a lot. Yeah, I've met 0:09:42.120 --> 0:09:45.360 a lot more fiddle players, you know, like since I've 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:50.480 been living there, or steel players, and invariably you invite 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:53.480 one of them some you know, just as a I mean, 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:55.040 you just get to know these people. They're cool, so 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:57.560 you invite them down to play, and soon they're appearing 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.440 on your record. And then people are saying, you know, 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.440 you've I see how you've you know, you've taken on 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.280 this kind of Nashville sound or whatever, and it's like, well, 0:10:06.800 --> 0:10:11.120 actually this person I mean, yes, I guess maybe you 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:13.679 could say that, but uh but in reality, it was 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:15.600 just this guy's so cool and I'm in all of 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:19.120 his skills. I love his He's like he's crazy good, 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.000 and it's I want to be around that, you know. 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.400 To add to add to that, though, if you went 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:25.839 nobody wants to be boxed in in any case. So 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:28.280 if you were say we did all move to Nashville 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:32.400 and we actually became country singers because of the environment, 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:35.520 we would probably be prone to not admit it. We'd 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.760 probably be prone when asked to say, oh no, that's 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:39.800 has nothing to do with this. We'd like country music 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:43.520 back when we live in Detroit, We're not being pushed 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:47.040 around or influenced by our environment or whatever. But I 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:49.240 think wherever you go, it's not like when we were 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:51.480 in Detroit. It's not like we like the Stooges because 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:53.840 we're walking down the street we like the Stooges. It's 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:56.480 because the people were hanging out with like the Stooges, 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:58.560 and we like them too, and not just means a 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:01.440 cultural thing. In this area the country, we're more prone 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:04.480 to like the gorries of Stooges, Detroit, Cobras, whatever. And 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:06.679 if you're down in Nashville, you're more prone to like 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:10.000 Laretta Lynn and Tammy Laynette. Would you say that since 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:13.800 moving to Nashville forgetting the making of music, has your 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:18.280 taste changed at all? That's a great question. Rick. I'm 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:23.440 gonna say I've been I've been exposed more to country, 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:26.880 kind of pop country by my wife, and she's like 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.520 that stuff, and so I think my I think I've 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:32.520 come around slightly to some of it, you know, just 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:35.240 seeing I can see some good and I'm not sure 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.800 it's changed my taste, but maybe it's broadened my horizons 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:42.800 a little bit. You know. Have you written I have 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.320 an appreciation. So I have a very large appreciation and 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:49.760 respect for some of those writers. I think they're super 0:11:49.840 --> 0:11:53.560 clever and you know what I mean, And that's sort 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:55.959 of been country music for a long time, kind of 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:58.920 witty and clever. And that could be like Florida Georgia 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:01.120 line that has a line maybe that's just like, oh, 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:03.839 that's good, that's good. You know, I appreciate that kind 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:06.800 of stuff. My appreciation goes to, like I like the 0:12:06.800 --> 0:12:11.000 cleverness of the monster mash and the cleverness of uh, 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:14.400 you know, uh, the novelty songs. And if you there's 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.160 is when you're a songwriter and you're and you're thinking 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:19.560 of something clever, like I think this last record, Druis album, 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:21.720 we stayed away from clever in a lot of ways. 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:24.120 It's it's tempting to want to come up with a 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:27.200 clever lyric, but then you also can go pass that 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:31.880 line into novelty, well then into not no emotion, no emotion, 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.840 no feeling, because it's that clever is kind of like 0:12:34.880 --> 0:12:38.280 it's this Nie slapper or it's like a jeez, I 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:40.719 mean not it's actually I take that back. I mean 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:44.200 sometimes it's just just so good it's and I'm trying. 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.679 I can't think of, you know, any great examples right now. 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.160 Is there a song on this on this most recent record, 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:51.560 she thinks I still love her, you know, or something 0:12:51.600 --> 0:12:55.200 like that. You know that song, Yeah, she thinks I 0:12:55.200 --> 0:13:00.199 still care? I mean, it's the whole song is or 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:06.000 the whole song is kind of just this witty it's 0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.760 so heavy. It's almost like in Loretta Lindos at all 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.880 the time, like there's a throwaway that's the novelty hook 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:15.240 to get you involved. But the metaphors once you get 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:17.520 in there are so heavy and deep that makes you 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.319 giggle for a second kind of smile, but then you're like, oh, 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.280 whoa wait a minute, Yeah, I think I think she 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:24.920 thinks I still care is one of the most amazing 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:28.439 metaphors ever written. As from a songwriting standpoint, everyone can 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:30.679 relate to that, like, yeah, you know, but you could 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:34.080 laugh forget her, forget him, you know, like I need him, 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.040 you know. It's just classic man and then summed up 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.040 so perfectly in that song. But it's because he's he 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:42.800 does still care, right, that's the whole point of that song. 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.480 I remember there's a Conway twitty song that begins with 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:48.360 all the things he has to do now that his 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:51.480 woman has left him. Yeah, I remember I've canceled my 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:56.520 subscription to the whole Ladies Turn. And it's like totally gimmicky, 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.080 and then you start to realize, oh my god, yeah, 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.320 this guy's truly truly Yeah, you know. It's what's interesting 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:06.800 about it is it's really sarcasm. Yeah, and it's not 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.120 unusual to hear sarcasm. Let's saying a Bob Dylan song, 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:16.720 but lines might be sarcastic, it would, the premise of 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.760 the song is almost never. I can't think of an 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:23.840 example where the premise of the song is based on sarcasm. Right, 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:26.320 you're right, right, it's hook lines to hook you in 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:29.760 with sarcasm. But the deeper meaning of it is actually 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:32.720 But I go so far as to say that that's 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.120 the all great songs are like that, that that the 0:14:35.240 --> 0:14:38.160 story is what you're trying to convey. You're communicating a story. 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.640 The music, the melody, all of it's a trick. It's 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:43.760 all of a way to trick you into the story. Well, 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:47.360 hopefully there are many levels too, Right, there's to trick 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:49.720 you in, to get you. The beat is a trick. 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:52.520 The title the song's a trick, that the melody is 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:55.000 a trick. And I don't mean that in an insulting 0:14:55.080 --> 0:14:57.160 sense a way. It's there's nothing wrong with that. That's great, 0:14:57.160 --> 0:14:59.520 and I think that's when. But it's just to manipulate 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:01.560 your feeling and your emotions and to make you sad, 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.200 make you cry like this, this feels you know, this 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:06.520 is great? Or this you know, you make some sort 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:10.640 of sound that sounds you know, whatever the decord, you know, 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.320 the ultimate? Do you do it? Do you would you 0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:16.520 say you do that consciously? I do sometimes I think 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:21.280 so yeah, and and probably fail most of those times. 0:15:21.320 --> 0:15:24.360 I'm conscious of it. And then other times, you know, 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:26.640 I mean, songs kind of creep up on me later, 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.880 much later, and I think, wow, man, I you know 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:32.400 that's cool. That's really deep, you know, it's it moves 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:34.560 me in a different way. Maybe it hits me differently, 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:36.560 and I think, oh, okay, I think that was a 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:39.280 successful song. You know, is there a song on the 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:42.520 latest album that strikes you in retrospect as a Nashville song, 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:46.040 a song you would would only have written because you 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:49.160 moved to Nashville. Maybe thoughts and prayers and thoughts and 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.600 prayers as Yeah, that's the last song on the record, 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:54.040 kind of has that vibe to it. Can you pay 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:56.360 a little bit and then explain what sort of Nashville 0:15:56.400 --> 0:15:59.720 about it? Let's discover maybe we can discover the way 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:03.960 I love that song. Wait, can that song get played 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:09.160 on country radio? No? Absolutely, you know, it's really it's 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:12.280 really more it's more Southern rock than it is kind 0:16:12.320 --> 0:16:14.560 I think you're right, Rick, Yeah, yeah, it has that 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:16.920 feeling to it. It's sort of like those incorporations of 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:23.880 those sort of luck that kind of cowboy Yeah, it 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.760 makes me think more of like Leonard Skinner and Molly 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.200 Hatchett than it does country music. You know. Yeah, So 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:32.040 like on paper, if you were going to write a 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.080 story about a garage rock band from Detroit then moved 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:39.240 to Nashville who has songwriting sensibilities, you might say that 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:44.320 they're gonna turn into fuckinglerd Skinner. I don't know. You 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.800 are Southern rock not necessarily not necessarily a bad thing. Yeah, 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:50.240 not a bad Wait. Can you can you talk a 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:52.920 little bit about how that song came about? It was 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.200 like a little demo I did it. I thought maybe 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:57.800 it wasn't really that interesting, but Brendan kind of heard 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:00.120 something in it, and we were testing it out. It 0:17:00.160 --> 0:17:04.000 was more minor key, I think, wasn't it all minor? 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.120 And then we changed you changed it to major D 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:14.280 and brought some sort of my brightness too? So is 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:16.520 that all you began with or did you beat? Yeah? 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.480 And I had that was like I was trying to 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:21.919 write lyrics like I wouldn't normally write, trying to like 0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:23.920 pretend I was a different songwriter writing those lyrics. I 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:26.439 would never write, why why does the grim Reaper creep? 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:29.680 How does the Grim Reaper creep? If he doesn't really 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:31.560 have the time? I mean, that's me. When I wrote 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.000 that down was to trying to be ridiculous to myself, 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:36.920 like what another songwriter would write, like why no? Cross 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.000 that out? I was trying to go into that territory 0:17:39.080 --> 0:17:41.480 or Joe, trying to shake myself up a little bit. 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:44.479 And I had heard I had heard a pick. What's that? 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:49.159 Did you pick? Did you pick a character for that songwriter? 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:51.879 Or was it just not you? Was it rooted in 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:56.240 either anyone you love or a combination or a fictional character? 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.399 What's the character? Actually? It's a It's like I won't 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:01.600 say the name. But I heard I heard a reference 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:03.439 on the radio, driving in the car, heard a reference 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:05.320 in the radio that pissed me off so much. It 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:07.399 was a reference in a song that was someone trying 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.520 to be clever and modern. And I won't say what 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:13.040 it was, but to me, that made me write this 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.000 line of I wrote a letter down to you like 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.520 I'm Sullivan Blue. I was trying to say, like if 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:20.880 I had took this goofy song writer and said, hey, listen, 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:22.800 why don't you instead of that reference, why don't you 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:26.159 reference something that actually has some staying power, some longevity 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:28.640 to it, instead of saying that person's name, Why don't 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:31.080 you say Sullivan Blue and let people go and learn 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:32.920 about Sullivan Blue in the letter he wrote in the 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:36.080 Civil War and maybe that. So it's almost like I 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.560 was pretending to workshop with this songwriter kid who doesn't 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:43.640 know what he's doing. You know. It's kind of a strange, crazy, 0:18:43.720 --> 0:18:46.360 off the left field thing to do. But so you're 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.359 literally driving down the road. Had you heard that song before, No, 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:51.159 so you're hearing it for the first time, and then 0:18:51.200 --> 0:18:55.040 you the song makes a reference and you're like, oh, yeah, 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:58.600 you can do better than that. Yeah, it's I think 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:00.240 you should care enough. I think a lot of people 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:02.119 don't say that I'm dumb enough to say that in 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:04.200 interviews and stuff, you know, Like they say like that 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:06.199 that that that's you know enough. I can hear that 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.240 and it pisces me off. But I think that you 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:10.560 should care enough about your craft. If you're an architect 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:11.840 and you drive it down the street and you see 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.920 some ridiculously built, constructed house in a neighborhood where it 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.320 doesn't belong you, you have two rules of all. You 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:19.920 can be like, oh, hey, I'm easy going man, everything's cool, 0:19:19.960 --> 0:19:22.800 sure man, whatever you want, you know, or you'll be 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.280 like no, rid absolutely, you're like you know. Frank Windwright 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:27.959 used to call all the glass building architects the glass 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:30.359 box Boys, which always thought would be a great name 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:35.919 for a band. But it's great, but his his his 0:19:36.000 --> 0:19:39.239 love of the craft. You when you're turned angry at 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.360 times by your love of the craft, When you see 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:43.960 someone getting away with something ridiculous, I think it should 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:45.800 anger you a little bit because it makes you love 0:19:45.840 --> 0:19:48.040 what you're doing all that much more. I love the 0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:52.520 idea that you could be inspired by something that you 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:56.560 don't like to make something better and new that you 0:19:56.560 --> 0:19:59.359 wouldn't do otherwise. That's really interesting. Yeah, I think I 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:03.320 always just feel like I learned more from what not 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:06.159 to do than what to do. And there's these moments 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:07.640 where I think I just popped in my head talking 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:09.919 about modern country, like when we when the Grammys were 0:20:09.920 --> 0:20:11.960 on last year, like Brandy Carlisle, when she's saying I 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:14.200 was like, oh my god, that's how it's done. That 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.040 should be country music right now. That should be what 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:19.639 all country music writing should strive for. Is what she 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.720 just did on Alive on the air. What was it 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.359 specifically about what she was doing that you that you 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.040