1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 3: My name is Robert Land, and I am Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 3: And we're back with part two in our series called 5 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 3: The Sunken Lands, about places where what was relatively recently 6 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 3: dry land has now vanished beneath the waters. 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: Now. 8 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 3: In the last episode, we talked about the history of 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 3: fascination with the idea of lands, and especially human civilizations 10 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 3: occupied lands that were swallowed by the sea, the most 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 3: famous of these stories, of course, being Atlantis, a probably 12 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 3: originally fictional island civilization described by Plato in some of 13 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 3: his dialogues that was, according to the story, punished for 14 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 3: its hubris by being drowned in the ocean. And even 15 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 3: though most experts on the original sources think this story 16 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 3: he probably did not refer to a place existing in reality, 17 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 3: there are still people all the time who love to 18 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,959 Speaker 3: hunt for remains of Atlantis and similar drowned empires, or 19 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 3: to interpret any strange underwater imagery or other phenomena or 20 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,960 Speaker 3: artifacts as evidence of such. Here's a weird looking artifact 21 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 3: from under the water. Maybe it's from Atlantis. 22 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's in many cases it's harmless. But you know, 23 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 2: as we've been discussing, these kind of ideas can bleed 24 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 2: into pseudoscience, pseudo archaeology, and pseudo geology, and in some 25 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: of these areas are perhaps harmless as well, but they 26 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 2: can become increasingly less harmless depending on what form they 27 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 2: end up taking within a given culture. I guess I 28 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 2: would just drive home that there's kind of an amorphous 29 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 2: nature to a lot of the concepts that we've been 30 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 2: discussing with the idea of lost islands, and there's going 31 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 2: to continue to be this kind of amorphous quality to 32 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 2: it as we proceed. 33 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 3: Right, So, despite the fact that hunting for a literal 34 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 3: physical Atlantis is probably the wrong track to be on, 35 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,119 Speaker 3: there are absolutely examples of real places on Earth where 36 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 3: land has relatively recently become covered in water. And the 37 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 3: main real world example we talked about in the last 38 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:24,519 Speaker 3: episode was what has come to be known as dogger Land, 39 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 3: a vast plain stretching mostly east of Great Britain and 40 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 3: north of the coastlines of continental Europe, off the north 41 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 3: coastlines of what is today France, Belgium, Germany and the Netherlands, 42 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 3: occupying much of the area that is now filled in 43 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 3: with the North Sea. Now, last time we talked about 44 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 3: some of the fascinating early hints, early pieces of evidence 45 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 3: that pointed to the existence of a past Doggerland, such 46 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 3: as observations going back centuries. Actually that sometimes low tide 47 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 3: on the British coast would reveal the remains of apparently 48 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 3: ancient trees and trunks still rooted in their original soil, 49 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 3: but now underneath the ocean. How's that possible? As well 50 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 3: as the discovery of terrestrial animal remains and even human 51 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 3: artifacts like the Kolinda Harpoon, a Stone age spear tip 52 00:03:16,680 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 3: dragged up from the bottom in a fishing net about 53 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 3: twenty five miles off the coast of Great Britain in 54 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,399 Speaker 3: the nineteen thirties. In nineteen thirty one. So today we're 55 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 3: back to talk more about the sunken lands. And I 56 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 3: wanted to kick off this episode by exploring Doggerland in 57 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,440 Speaker 3: more depth. So Doggerland used to be land, now it's 58 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 3: covered in sea. What happened to it? Well, I'm going 59 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 3: to lay out a rough timeline here and I just 60 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 3: want to mention at the top here a couple of 61 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 3: really good articles about the archaeology of Doggerland that I 62 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 3: was reading. One was called Europe's Lost Frontier. This was 63 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 3: a feature published in the journal Science by Andrew Curry 64 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 3: in January twenty twenty. Another is called Mapping Vanished Landscape. 65 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 3: This was in Archaeology Magazine by Jason Urbanus in the 66 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 3: March April twenty twenty two edition. So the Doggerland timeline 67 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 3: goes like this. During the Late Pleistocene, the last part 68 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 3: of the most recent ice age, between about one hundred 69 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 3: and twenty five thousand and twelve thousand years ago, much 70 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 3: of the world's water was locked in glaciers and the 71 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 3: North Sea was much lower than it is today. It 72 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 3: was about four hundred and fifty feet lower than the 73 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 3: present average. So at this time during the Late Pleistocene, 74 00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 3: Doggerland was a cold, dry place, a freezing grassland step 75 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 3: occupied mostly by megafauna like wooly mammoths or wooly rhinoceroses, 76 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 3: but other large large animals that can withstand cold environments, 77 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 3: like reindeer and the aurux, the ancestor of modern cattle. Then, 78 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:02,039 Speaker 3: after the conclusion of the Pleistocene, we transition into the 79 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 3: geological epic known as the Holocene, which extends up until today. 80 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 3: This is the warming period after the most recent ice age. 81 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 3: So this period is characterized by a steady increase in 82 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 3: temperatures which caused glaciers to begin to melt. So for 83 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 3: thousands of years, you know, I think back roughly ten 84 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 3: thousand years ago or so, for thousands of years, Doggerland 85 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 3: was still above sea level, but the warming climate and 86 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 3: the melting glaciers transformed it from a cold arid step 87 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 3: a tundra like landscape into an increasingly lush land of 88 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 3: forests and then marshes, rivers and lakes, and many sources 89 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 3: described this post glacial landscape as a kind of hunter 90 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 3: gatherer paradise. So who were these hunter gatherers? While there 91 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 3: were multiple waves of them. In fact, there's some indication 92 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 3: that the human relative, the ancient human relative Homo antecessor, 93 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 3: had existed in Doggerland going way back during the cold 94 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 3: arid Step period. The Neanderthals occupied Doggerland. It would have 95 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 3: been a harsh existence. This would be a very cold 96 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 3: and dry place where people would have survived by hunting 97 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 3: large animals. But Neanderthals did occupy the Dogerland Step. We 98 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:28,239 Speaker 3: know that through evidence of artifacts axeheads and other flint 99 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 3: artifacts that have in some cases been clearly subjected to 100 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 3: a type of birch barqu tar that the Neanderthals would 101 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 3: use that they manufactured, and then after the Neanderthals during 102 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 3: the Holocene, when the area was warming up, it was 103 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 3: clearly inhabited by Middle Stone Age Homo sapiens. And the 104 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 3: article in Archaeology Magazine that I mentioned a minute ago 105 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 3: quotes a curator of prehistoric collections at the National Museum 106 00:06:55,920 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 3: of Antiquities in Leyden named Luke Amkroutz, who says, quote, 107 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 3: during the Holocene, Doggerland was a wooded environment, but with 108 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 3: really extensive coastlines and enormous wetlands. These were the richest 109 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 3: areas to live in. There were forest resources, deer, wild boar, 110 00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 3: and berries, but also fish, migrating birds, otters, and beavers. 111 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 3: It was a garden of Eden for them, a wetland wonderland. 112 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 3: So if you were a hunter gatherer in Mesolithic Europe, 113 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 3: especially after the glaciers began to melt and the climate 114 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 3: began to warm, Doggerland was awesome. Jason Urbanis, writing this 115 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 3: article says that it is quote by any estimation, the 116 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 3: most attractive landscape in northwestern Europe for Mesolithic hunter gatherers, 117 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 3: and perhaps the continent's most densely populated region at the time. 118 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 3: So sometimes when you think about a previously exposed piece 119 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 3: of land that is in many sources referred to as 120 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 3: quote a land bridge because it is bridged the mainland 121 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 3: continental Europe with Great Britain, you think of a kind 122 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 3: of transitional place, you know that people just walked across. 123 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 3: But no, it's not just a transitional place that allowed 124 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 3: people to get from one highland to another. This was 125 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 3: apparently about the best place you could be in this 126 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 3: area of Europe at the time. It was full of resources. 127 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 2: This is also amazing that he directly compares it to 128 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 2: the Garden of Eden, that he compares it to not 129 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 2: only a land of plenty, but a utopia, which lines 130 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 2: up with so many of these ideas of a lost 131 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 2: and or sunken land, of a land from which people 132 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 2: came but can no longer return to or may one 133 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 2: day return to. But in this case it does seem 134 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 2: to line up with the idea of it actually being 135 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 2: a land of plenty, actually being a place where resources 136 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 2: were abundant, but. 137 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 3: Much like the Garden of Eden, it couldn't last forever, 138 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 3: though in this case it apparently has nothing to do 139 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 3: with a snake. It has to do with, in fact, 140 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 3: the exact same forces that made it a land of 141 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 3: plenty in abundance in the beginning ended up dooming it. 142 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 3: So a warming climate and melting glaciers first changed dogger 143 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 3: Land from an arid tundra into a lush paradise, and 144 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 3: then the same trends transformed it to the drowned Stone 145 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 3: Age graveyard it is today. 146 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 2: Oh wow. 147 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,440 Speaker 3: So from the end of the Last Ice Age, the 148 00:09:28,559 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 3: level of the North Sea steadily rose. Ice is melting, 149 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 3: the world is warming, the sea levels are rising, and 150 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 3: Urbanis writes in the archaeology article that for a period 151 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 3: of roughly three thousand years, the sea rose six feet 152 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 3: every hundred years, and then, adding to the steady creep 153 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 3: up of the waterline, there was a sudden cataclysmic event 154 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 3: that would have horribly affected the Mesolithic populations living in 155 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 3: the remaining coastal areas of that region towards the en 156 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 3: end of that warming period, so more than eight thousand 157 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 3: years ago, around sixty two hundred BCE. Again, at this point, 158 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 3: much of Doggerland had already been submerged, but what was 159 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 3: left above the water line was hit with a catastrophic 160 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 3: tsunami caused by an underwater landslide off the coast of Norway. 161 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 3: It was actually one of a series of these underwater 162 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 3: land slide events known as the Storega slides STORGGA. And 163 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 3: I've seen different estimates for the exact height and power 164 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 3: of the tsunami wave. That article I mentioned in Science 165 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: by Andrew Curry cites an estimate of at least ten 166 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 3: meters high for the wave that hit Doggerland, but a 167 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 3: twenty twenty one study of its effects on the eastern 168 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 3: coast of Scotland. So this is looking at Scotland analyzed 169 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 3: soil deposits to estimate that the water might have come 170 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 3: as far as eighteen miles inland. 171 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 2: Wow, well, I mean even just looking at the like 172 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 2: the ten meter high, that would be almost thirty three 173 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 2: feet high. 174 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,199 Speaker 3: Right, So if you are in range of the tsunami, 175 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 3: catastrophic event also may have had some effect in like 176 00:11:07,360 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 3: moving around sediments and possibly washing out some existing areas 177 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:12,160 Speaker 3: of land. 178 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 2: Right right, that again, we're already exposed due to the 179 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 2: rising the sea levels. 180 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 3: Right, and actually one of the last pieces of land 181 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 3: remaining above water from Doggerland was the now submerged Dogger 182 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 3: Bank from which Doggerland gets its name. It remained as 183 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 3: an island for a while, so Doggerland came to be 184 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 3: known as Doggerland when the name was given to it 185 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 3: by an archaeologist named Briany Coles, and it was named 186 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 3: after the sand bank in the North Sea known as 187 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 3: the Dogger Bank, which got its name because it was 188 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 3: a popular fishing spot used by these Dutch boats called doggers. 189 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 3: So the dogger boats go out, they fish around the 190 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 3: sand bank. There's good catch there and those doggers give 191 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 3: their name to the area. And apparently that that sandbank 192 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 3: was once an island, that was one of the last 193 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 3: parts of it left. Now there's an interesting contradiction, which 194 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 3: is that we know that it was probably one of 195 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 3: the most densely populated places in Stone Age Europe. It 196 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 3: was full of abundant resources. There were lots of humans 197 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 3: living there in the Middle Stone Age, but it's hard 198 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 3: to study archaeologically for obvious reasons. You can't just go 199 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 3: dig it's underwater, and also the water is deep and 200 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 3: cold and murky and stormy. It's just a difficult place 201 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 3: to explore, even with divers. So how can archaeologists learn 202 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 3: things about Doggerland other than just waiting for the occasional 203 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 3: artifact to get dredged up in a trawling net like 204 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 3: we talked about with the Kolinda harpoon. Well, actually, this 205 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 3: is one of the main subjects of that article in 206 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 3: Archaeology magazine Mapping a Vanished Landscape by Jason Arbanis, and 207 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 3: it talks about some interesting ways that scholars have come 208 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 3: up with or come across by accident to study Doggerland 209 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:09,719 Speaker 3: and see what we can learn about it. So one 210 00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 3: effort described in this article is associated with a University 211 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 3: of Bradford archaeologist and named Vince Gaffney and colleagues. Gaffney 212 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 3: is quoted extensively in this article and he talks about 213 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:28,479 Speaker 3: how he and colleagues used data from seismic reflections surveys 214 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 3: originally done by offshore oil and gas companies to find 215 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 3: mineral deposits. So the way this works is that you 216 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:38,440 Speaker 3: have a ship, it goes out in the water. It 217 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 3: emits sound waves into the water which bounce off of 218 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 3: the seafloor. And then are picked up by ship based 219 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 3: detectors and the physical features of the seafloor affect how 220 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 3: the sound is altered when it bounces back, and then 221 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 3: this information can be used to map shapes and contours 222 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 3: and anomalies deep under the water. Now they figured out 223 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 3: that that same seismic data, which was again proprietary, it 224 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 3: was owned by these energy companies, how that could be 225 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 3: used by archaeologists to assemble an approximate picture of what 226 00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 3: Doggerland was like before it flooded, to study the hidden landscape. 227 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 3: And the archaeologists were actually able to get data from 228 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,520 Speaker 3: I think multiple companies, at least one company called Petroleum 229 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 3: Geoservices or PGS, And they talk about how they used 230 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 3: data from this company to map a patch of CEA 231 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 3: roughly twenty three hundred square miles in size, and when 232 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 3: they assembled the map, they realized they were looking at 233 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 3: a place where a large river had once cut through 234 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 3: what is now the submerged dogg Or Bank. So imagine 235 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 3: that you're like looking at this seismic reflection data and 236 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 3: then you realize it's showing you a map of what 237 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 3: the land looked like before the water covered it, and 238 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 3: you can see the river bed and all that. 239 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 2: Wow. 240 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 3: And at the time of this article their maps had 241 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 3: expanded to cover more than seventeen square miles, so they 242 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 3: know a lot more about the landscape of Doggerland than 243 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 3: we did in the past. They have maps depicting a 244 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 3: lost landscape of lakes, rivers, hills and valleys. So that's 245 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 3: one way of understanding Doggerland is with this mapping project. 246 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 3: But there's another interesting thing this mentioned in both of 247 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 3: these articles, which is that, of course many more Mesolithic 248 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 3: artifacts from Doggerland have been found since the Colindo Harpoon. 249 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 3: There are lots of them now, especially a lot of 250 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 3: these these spear tips and sharp points, and a lot 251 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 3: of them have been found as an accidental byproduct of 252 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 3: beach fill efforts that are used to help, in one sense, 253 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 3: to protect the coastlines of places like the Netherlands from 254 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 3: rising sea levels, but also to counteract coastal erosion. So basically, 255 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 3: you have these big boats that go out and dredge 256 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 3: up gigantic amounts of sand from the sea bottom miles 257 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 3: off shore, and then they come back and they dump 258 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 3: it at the water's edge to expand the existing land footprint. 259 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 3: Maybe to build more harbor infrastructure or something, or to 260 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 3: fix a roding coastline, or to build up a sand 261 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,680 Speaker 3: barrier to help protect the inland areas from rising seawater. 262 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 3: And it just so happens that when they do this, 263 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 3: when these boats dredge up the seafloor for Beachville, they 264 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 3: often end up depositing previously buried artifacts of Doggerland on 265 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 3: the beaches where they can be picked up by collectors. 266 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 3: And these articles describe archaeologists who are in contact with 267 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 3: these sort of beach walking artifact collectors and they're just 268 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,600 Speaker 3: getting artifacts from Doggerland all the time. Now people are 269 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 3: writing them to say, oh, here, they've got arrowheads, axes, 270 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 3: barbed spear tips made from antler or bone, much like 271 00:16:51,080 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 3: the Kolinda harpoon. Remember that was made from the antler 272 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 3: of a red deer. And there's a lot we can 273 00:16:56,720 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 3: learn from this stuff. Because the low oxygen soiled posits 274 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 3: at the bottom of the North Sea tend to preserve 275 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 3: organic materials very well, so the researchers have been able 276 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 3: to do a lot of analysis on these organic remains, 277 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 3: including skeletal remains of the humans from these periods. And 278 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 3: this includes DNA analysis, so we know a lot more 279 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 3: than we used to. The downside, of course, is that 280 00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 3: if you are just finding like artifacts or human remains 281 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 3: that have been scooped up in this haphazard process where 282 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 3: they're you know, dredged from the ocean floor and then 283 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 3: spit out on a beach somewhere, you know nothing about 284 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 3: the context really. I mean, you might have some rough 285 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 3: ideas about where it comes from, but you know, archaeologists 286 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 3: want not just an artifact, but they want to understand 287 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 3: the context of the artifact. What soil did it come from, 288 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,399 Speaker 3: What where exactly was that located, what was the situation 289 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 3: in which this artifact would have originally been deposited. 290 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 2: So we're kind of like robbing future archaeologists who might 291 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 2: have clearer maps and therefore a little better idea about 292 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: where to search for such artifacts in these sunken lands, 293 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 2: and also better means of actually investigating these sites and 294 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 2: exploring them in a way that retains some level of 295 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:18,520 Speaker 2: context about the remains. 296 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,720 Speaker 3: That's right, And so the archaeologists described in these articles 297 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 3: have actually in some cases been able to identify artifacts 298 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 3: in their original context. So one question, it asks, is, okay, 299 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 3: so we know that Doggerland was probably a very desirable 300 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 3: location during this warming period, for the few thousand years 301 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 3: that it was warming and wet but not yet submerged. 302 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 3: So when people lived there, where did they live? Finding 303 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 3: the location of settlements as obviously difficult underwater, but they 304 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 3: say that generally the people of Mesolithic Europe were nomadic, 305 00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 3: but if there was a sheet with you know, if 306 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,719 Speaker 3: there was a great abundance of resources, they might create 307 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 3: semi permanent settlements. And the places you would look for 308 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 3: those semi permanent settlements might be things might be on 309 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 3: the like high ground close to wetland areas, so the 310 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 3: wetlands would have resources that you would want, but you 311 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 3: would want an elevated area above that. Now I'm going 312 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 3: to read a brief passage from this article in Archaeology 313 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 3: magazine describing efforts by Vince Gaffney and colleagues to identify 314 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 3: an underwater site with the help of this mapping and 315 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:35,920 Speaker 3: then extract artifacts from the underwater site so you'd understand 316 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 3: more about the original context. One of these sites quote, 317 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 3: was a shallow, fifteen mile long seafloor ridge known as 318 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 3: Brown Bank, where a wealth of archaeological objects, including a 319 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 3: thirteen thousand year old engraved aurex bone had been snared 320 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 3: by fishing trawlers in the past. The other was an 321 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 3: area along a now submerged river channel and estuary off 322 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 3: the Norfolk Coast known as the South Although the weather 323 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 3: did not fully cooperate, cutting the team's time at sea short, 324 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 3: they were able to scoop up sediment deposits from the 325 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 3: Southern River estuary site. When they examined the material, they 326 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 3: were stunned to find it contained a fragment of a 327 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:18,159 Speaker 3: stone tool known as a hammerstone. So I was pretty 328 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 3: amazed by that. The idea that they could use these 329 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 3: maps to find sites at the bottom of the North 330 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 3: Sea where they would expect humans to have lived because 331 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,240 Speaker 3: of the value of those sites compared to the natural 332 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 3: resources around them, and then go scoop up sediment from 333 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 3: under the water and actually find human artifacts where they 334 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 3: expected to look for them. That is impressive, And so 335 00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 3: the article goes on to say that while this individual 336 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 3: find of the hammerstone might not be incredibly significant, the 337 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,920 Speaker 3: fact that this technique generally works for could or generally 338 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 3: could work for finding artifacts of this type could teach 339 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 3: us a lot more about the societies of ancient Doggerland. 340 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 3: Now another archaeological note that I wanted to mention this 341 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 3: is from that article in Science by Andrew Curry from 342 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 3: January twenty twenty, and just as a funny side note, 343 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 3: the dateline on this report is from a place in 344 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 3: the Netherlands called Monster. I don't know if I'm pronouncing 345 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 3: it right, but that is a town in South Holland, Monster, 346 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 3: which is near a beach that had been constructed via 347 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 3: the sand motor process that I was talking about. So 348 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 3: a lot of Doggerland artifacts and human remains could be 349 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,119 Speaker 3: found on the beach there and are found by people 350 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:46,159 Speaker 3: walking around looking for artifacts. So this article covers a 351 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 3: lot of the same ground as the other one I 352 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 3: was talking about. But one interesting question it asks is, okay, 353 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,640 Speaker 3: we've got a good amount now of physical evidence available 354 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 3: from Doggerland, does it reveal anything about what ancient people 355 00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 3: did in response to these steadily rising sea levels? And 356 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 3: there actually has been some research on this that they 357 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,679 Speaker 3: of course know that the rising water gradually transformed Doggerland 358 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 3: from a land of rivers and forests into a wetland 359 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,159 Speaker 3: with marshes and estuaries in the lower lying areas and 360 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 3: then scattered highlands which stayed drier, and analysis of human 361 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,880 Speaker 3: bones recovered from across this transition period shows changes in 362 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 3: what people ate. So as the landscape changed, people apparently 363 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 3: shifted their diet from land based animals to freshwater fish. 364 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 3: And then one last little fact I wanted to mention 365 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 3: that I came across. This was in an article by 366 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 3: Johannis Decker at All published in the Journal of Archaeological 367 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 3: Science Reports in twenty twenty one called human and servid 368 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 3: osseous materials used for barbed point manufacture in Mesolithic Doggerland. 369 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 3: The fact was sort of contained in the title there. 370 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 3: We have already talked about how a lot of these 371 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 3: sharp spear points that have been recovered from the people 372 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 3: who lived here were made of antler and bone. These 373 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 3: are primarily animal bones, of course, you know, so they 374 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 3: might be using parts of a deer carcass or something 375 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 3: like that to make a lot of these weapons. But 376 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 3: apparently the authors of this study report at least two 377 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 3: barbed points like spear or harpoon tips that were made 378 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 3: out of human bone. 379 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,879 Speaker 2: That's fascinating and it makes one wonder, you know, what, 380 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,719 Speaker 2: what could have been the context for that. Was it 381 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 2: a matter of some sort of a supply shortage with 382 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 2: you know, deer or elkbones. Was it maybe something that 383 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,159 Speaker 2: was ritualistic? Was this, you know, the way to honor 384 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 2: ancestors or you know, or was it just hey, we 385 00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 2: need more bone and we have some human bones on hand. 386 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 2: Were these enemies? Were these friends? So many questions. 387 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, the mind always races when you get a detail 388 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 3: like that. You think like, is this was this a 389 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 3: question of efficiency or question of choice? 390 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, this whole discussion of Doggerland has been fascinating. 391 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,880 Speaker 2: I really wasn't familiar with this topic at all. 392 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I was not really either. I mean reading about Doggerland, 393 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 3: including some of the articles I've talked about today, is 394 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 3: sort of what made me want to discuss it in 395 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:19,479 Speaker 3: the context of this broader subject of submerged lands. And 396 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 3: of course it is not the only one, that's right. 397 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 2: I want to come back to the topic of lost 398 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: islands that we touched on briefly in the last episode. 399 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 2: I was reading about the topic in a book titled 400 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,479 Speaker 2: Lost Islands, The Story of Islands that have Vanished from 401 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:38,400 Speaker 2: Nautical Charts by Henry Stomel. This is a really really 402 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: fun book. He spends a lot of time just talking 403 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 2: about like why people are just so fascinated with islands 404 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 2: in general. It talks about like just the idea of 405 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 2: an island is attractive to us. You know, it's kind 406 00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 2: of like this miniature world that we can comprehend in 407 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 2: our head and so therefore real and you know, definitely 408 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 2: real islands, existing islands are of great interest to us. 409 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 2: And the idea of lost islands, well. 410 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 3: This is only half formed, but I feel like we 411 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 3: are attracted to stories that are set in the location 412 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 3: with clear boundaries. Like we like stories that are set 413 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 3: in a particular house. You know, there's like a haunted mansion, 414 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 3: and we just know the stories about that mansion. It's there, 415 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:17,959 Speaker 3: And the island is kind of the same way. You know, 416 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,879 Speaker 3: It's like it's got a clear boundary. It's surrounded by water, 417 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 3: so we have an idea of the setting that is 418 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 3: fully contained. 419 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they often do. You know, we've talked about 420 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,199 Speaker 2: the island ecosystems before. You know, you'll you'll often encounter 421 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,879 Speaker 2: a situation where an island feels like a continent made small. 422 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 2: You know, you'll have that diversity, you'll have you'll have 423 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 2: the dry arid lands, you'll have the rainforest that even 424 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,960 Speaker 2: snow tipped mountains in some cases, and you'll have it 425 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: all in just such a tight and contained space relatively speaking. Now, 426 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,680 Speaker 2: the author of this book, Stowmall, points out that nineteenth 427 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 2: century nautical charts feature a good two hundred islands that 428 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 2: we know now just don't exist, and he writes that 429 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,679 Speaker 2: most of these were situations of poor location determination and 430 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 2: or reporting errors. So, in one example, nineteenth century cartographers 431 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,199 Speaker 2: ended up including Gang's Island in the Pacific, apparently as 432 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,360 Speaker 2: a concession to various reports of a reef or an 433 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 2: island at its sighted coordinates. So, you know, you'd imagine 434 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 2: a situation where the map makers are like, okay, well, 435 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 2: some people are saying there's something there. Some people were not, 436 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,880 Speaker 2: Let's just go ahead and include it. You know, maybe 437 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,360 Speaker 2: it's a situation we're just safer to say, okay, we'll 438 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 2: put it on there. But by nineteen thirty three it 439 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 2: was clear that there was nothing there. 440 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 3: That raises an interesting question. If you have ambiguous evidence, 441 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 3: I'll say your evidence, you think it's like fifty to 442 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,639 Speaker 3: fifty that an island is in a place or not 443 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 3: And you're a map maker, should you err on the 444 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 3: side of putting it there or not putting it there? 445 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? 446 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 3: Like which would do which would do the least harm 447 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 3: if you were wrong? 448 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,479 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I think it's that's a fair consideration. He 449 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,560 Speaker 2: also points out that other matters were situations of fraud 450 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,919 Speaker 2: or deception. May come back to that idea in the 451 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 2: next episode. Uh. He also mentions optical illusions as we've 452 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 2: we've noted already and you know and we discovered discussed 453 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,480 Speaker 2: in our Fata Morgana episodes in the past. But he 454 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 2: also stresses quote that some volcanic islands do pop up 455 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 2: and down and this is this is the uh, this 456 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 2: is what I want to dive into for the remainder 457 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 2: of this episode. 458 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 3: UH. 459 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 2: He mentioned specifically the alleged islands of Los uh Tuanahi 460 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 2: or Tuanaki near the Cook Islands in the South Pacific. 461 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 2: This is one of several sites noted in the book 462 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 2: Vanished Islands and Hidden Continents of the Pacific by Patrick Nunn. 463 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 2: His website, by the way, is Patrick Nunn that's in 464 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 2: you in inn dot org. UH really good website with 465 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 2: links to all his books. He's a scientist and author 466 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 2: of multiple books dealing with sunken lands, and seems to 467 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,240 Speaker 2: be one of the leading living authorities on this subject. 468 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 2: In Vanished Islands nonethlests twenty one Pacific islands that he 469 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 2: classifies as quote satisfactorily authenticated or partially authenticated islands and 470 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 2: in parentheses probably real islands, while also identifying a longer 471 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 2: list of islands that are likely mythical. And I have 472 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,280 Speaker 2: to say, I really wasn't expecting that there to be 473 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,199 Speaker 2: so many to be, you know, there to be a 474 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 2: list of twenty one Pacific islands that are you know, 475 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 2: retained at least within oral traditions of the peoples who 476 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 2: have lived in this area that have just vanished, that 477 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: were real at one point and are now gone. But 478 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 2: of course, as we'll discuss, it is a geologically active area. 479 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 3: Okay, so what would be some examples here? 480 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,200 Speaker 2: Well, he brings up the traditions of the people of 481 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 2: the Marquesas Islands in French Polynesia, and apparently there are 482 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 2: multiple oral traditions of often catastrophic land sinkings. So really 483 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 2: ultimately exactactly the sort of catastrophic island sinks into the 484 00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,840 Speaker 2: ocean sort of events that may pop into your head 485 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 2: and that you might think, well, this is more like 486 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 2: the kind of thing that occurs just in fictions and 487 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 2: fantasy and so forth. But none stresses that you know, 488 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 2: these have likely occurred throughout human history in these given areas, 489 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 2: through throughout the history of human occupation of these areas, 490 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 2: with fresh incidents, fresh sinkings, fresh events, rejuvenating older traditions 491 00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:33,640 Speaker 2: and older ideas, as well as myths concerning lost islands 492 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 2: that align with our previously discussed tropes of utopias and 493 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 2: golden ages. None rights quote. Many such stories have been 494 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 2: believed in literally so that at various times, oftentimes of famine, 495 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,640 Speaker 2: people have searched of these fabled islands of plenty, but 496 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 2: only one canoe has ever was ever heard from again. 497 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 2: So you know, you have these sorts of stories where 498 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 2: there was this place that we came from, this place 499 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 2: that was known, and it was rich and it was abundant, 500 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,920 Speaker 2: and during times of famine it might be a place 501 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 2: that people seek for again but cannot find. 502 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 3: So what you would get is the story of the 503 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 3: failed attempt to rediscover the lost land. 504 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so it would seem. And so this is 505 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 2: again getting into that area where myth and reality kind 506 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 2: of feed into each other and it gets very very complex. 507 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 2: There are so many ways to look at any given 508 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 2: belief system, but to be clear, there are numerous examples, 509 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 2: according to a nun of populated islands in this region 510 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 2: that sank beneath the waves. One example is tion Imanu, 511 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 2: previously located in a very seismically active part of the 512 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,000 Speaker 2: Solomon Islands. In its current reduced state, it's known as 513 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 2: lark Shoal and the apparently the sinking of Tinemanu was 514 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 2: really rapid, with only a few individuals escaping via canoe, 515 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 2: but enough is to pass on their accounts into the 516 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 2: oral tradition. And this is interesting because some of the 517 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 2: details line up with what we were just talking about 518 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 2: with Doggerland, but none says that the island was apparently 519 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 2: affected by a large seafloor earthquake that destabilized the underwater 520 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 2: ridge that the island was situated on, causing it to 521 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 2: slide into deeper waters as tsunami waves washed over the land. 522 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,040 Speaker 3: Oh okay, so this was not just continually increasing sea levels. 523 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 3: This was a rapid, sudden seismic event that caused a 524 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 3: sudden end to the land. 525 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is a real cataclysm. This is 526 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 2: kind of ironically the sort of thing that the imagination 527 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 2: may summon when you bring up the idea of Atlantis 528 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,200 Speaker 2: sinking into the ocean. But I do have to point 529 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,240 Speaker 2: out that he stresses that nothing you could describe as 530 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: a sunken continent exists in the Pacific Ocean. The various 531 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 2: lost islands he references are not at all on the 532 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 2: scale of pseudoscientific lands like MoU and Limuria. 533 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 3: Right, So you really can't interpret any of the real 534 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:09,719 Speaker 3: world examples as giving credence to any of these stories 535 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 3: of lost civilizations like Atlantis or Limoria or whatever, just 536 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 3: because like the details don't line up at all. 537 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 2: Right, So None explores various islands at length in a 538 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 2: couple of the books that I looked at, but one 539 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 2: I found really interesting it kind of lines up with 540 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 2: a lot of what we're talking about in these episodes. 541 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 2: And it's the land of Hawaiki. So in various Polynesian 542 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 2: mythologies and under some different specific names, this is the 543 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:40,240 Speaker 2: homeland from which the people departed to populate the islands 544 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 2: of the Pacific. It takes on the character of not 545 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,720 Speaker 2: only a place of origin, but especially with the Maori 546 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 2: spiritual underworld and or a land beneath the sea, a 547 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 2: place where the gods reside and the world where souls 548 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 2: return to. And none points out that Hawaki is generally 549 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 2: positioned in the west in these various traditions, which he 550 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 2: says certainly matches up with accepted migration patterns of humans, 551 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 2: you know, the last wave of true human exploration on 552 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 2: our planet. But he also says that as far as 553 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 2: mythology is concerned, it also could be more aligned with 554 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: ideas concerning death in the setting of the sun. So 555 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,000 Speaker 2: just a reminder that there's so many factors to consider 556 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 2: in any given belief system and you ultimately, you know, 557 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 2: can't latch onto just like one explanation for why people 558 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 2: believe in something, right, And he also stresses that we 559 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 2: should be culturally respectful and scientifically cautious about jumping to 560 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 2: any conclusions about Hawaiki, which was you know, seems like 561 00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 2: it was likely a real place or real places, not 562 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 2: the same island of origin for all peoples in this 563 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 2: region and all cultures. But we should be careful about 564 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 2: saying that it was an island that sank beneath the waves. 565 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:04,760 Speaker 2: In this case, Non rights that while some pseudoscience writers 566 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,479 Speaker 2: have kind of picked this up and run with it, 567 00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 2: linking it to concepts like Lemuria, like mu, the idea 568 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 2: that Hawaukee sank is not a widespread detail in actual 569 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 2: Pacific island myths and was likely an invention of Western writers. 570 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,240 Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting. So maybe people reporting the stories told 571 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 3: by other cultures, but with their own gloss and the 572 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 3: sort of background of Atlantis knowledge and stuff like that. 573 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And I guess you could also approach like 574 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 2: you could also be reading about these other islands that 575 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:37,359 Speaker 2: did sink, that are lost, and you know, you end 576 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 2: up looking at that evidence and then you take into 577 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 2: account this tradition as well. So Noun's work is really interesting. 578 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,799 Speaker 2: He's been one of many voices stressing the threat that 579 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 2: climate change and rising sea levels pose to islands in 580 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,560 Speaker 2: the West Pacific, where sea levels have risen at two 581 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 2: or three times the global average over the past few decades, 582 00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 2: thus endangering not only the livelihoods and culture of modern inhabitants, 583 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:15,280 Speaker 2: but endangering their histories as well. Pacific island reefs, which 584 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 2: only formed in the last four thousand years, according to Nune, 585 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 2: are particularly vulnerable to erosion via rising sea levels. He 586 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,439 Speaker 2: stressed this in a twenty seventeen article for The Conversation. Now, 587 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 2: I may come back to more of Nun's work in 588 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 2: the next episode. Again, there's so much of it. If 589 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 2: you're fascinated by this topic, I definitely recommend checking out 590 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 2: his work. But he also points to some other natural 591 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 2: phenomena that have led to past mistakes in erroneous island identification. 592 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 2: So these errors and saying I think there's an island here, 593 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:49,120 Speaker 2: and then it turns out there's nothing there. 594 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 3: Okay, So the picture I'm getting correct me if this 595 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 3: is wrong is there are a lot of stories of 596 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 3: vanished islands. There are a few cases where it seems like, yes, 597 00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 3: this really did happen, but the majority of cases are 598 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 3: seemed to be a mistake or a legend of some kind. 599 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,359 Speaker 3: And there are a lot of different explanations, correct explanations 600 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,719 Speaker 3: for the mistakes. So yeah, what would those be. 601 00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 2: Well, one of them that he brings up is, of course, 602 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 2: floating vegetation. We've discussed this before. You know, things like 603 00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 2: like the sarcasm, a weed and so forth. You have 604 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 2: some sort of a big mat of vegetation out there, 605 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 2: and especially if you're unfamiliar with the area. If you've 606 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 2: never encountered this before and you're looking at it from 607 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 2: a distance, you might think, oh, well, there's some sort 608 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 2: of land out there. I'm not saying you'll mistake it 609 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,800 Speaker 2: for like a huge, robust island, but you might mistake 610 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 2: it for something worth marking on a nautical map. The 611 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,080 Speaker 2: other one, the other possibility that I was not prepared for, 612 00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 2: that he mentions in passing, is that it could be 613 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 2: that what you're gazing out there is not a reef, 614 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,280 Speaker 2: is not something you know, poking out of the water, 615 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:57,200 Speaker 2: or even like a large expanse of some some sort 616 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 2: of land mass. It could just be the white scum 617 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 2: of the poe low low worm. 618 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,399 Speaker 3: I've never even heard of this. What is this? 619 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 2: So these are marine anlid worms of the Pacific Islands 620 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 2: that engage in mass spawning. And it's it's a weird one. 621 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 2: So these creatures live in the seafloor substrate. And they 622 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,879 Speaker 2: they look like when we say worms, I mean they're 623 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 2: not like earth worms. They have various appendages, you know, 624 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:25,719 Speaker 2: and they have these kind of like tentaclely things on 625 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:29,759 Speaker 2: their their heads. Uh, they're you know, they're they're not 626 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:31,600 Speaker 2: I wouldn't say they're grotesque or anything. They're kind of 627 00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 2: beautiful in their own way. 628 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:35,920 Speaker 3: To me, they kind of look like a cross between 629 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 3: an earthworm and a centipede. 630 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:41,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I imagine something like that living in the 631 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,839 Speaker 2: seafloor substrate. So then they live down there, they live 632 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 2: in their their holes and so forth. But as breeding 633 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,839 Speaker 2: season approaches, they begin to change. So first the tail 634 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,120 Speaker 2: of the worm undergoes a great deal of alteration. Muscles 635 00:37:56,120 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 2: and organs degenerate, the appendages down there become more pass alike, 636 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 2: and the reproductive organs grow. They swell in size and 637 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 2: end up taking up more of the real estate and 638 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:12,879 Speaker 2: that back half of the organism. And then, in line 639 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,400 Speaker 2: with the phases of the moon, all of the plolo 640 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,839 Speaker 2: worms stick their back halves out of their holes, and 641 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,680 Speaker 2: then they rupture. They break in two, the tail section 642 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 2: full of reproductive cells and again augmented. Now for swimming. 643 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 2: It's broken off and it swims up to the surface, 644 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 2: while the rest of the worm stays down in the 645 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,839 Speaker 2: seafloor muck and regenerates. So the part that stays down 646 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:44,120 Speaker 2: there and regenerates is the atok. And then the epitopes 647 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,400 Speaker 2: are the bits that go swimming up to the surface. 648 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 3: Okay, so they're going up to the surface taking sex 649 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 3: cells with them, yes, yeah, okay. 650 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 2: So they go up to the surface and again all 651 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 2: at once. We're talking in the tens of thousands. This 652 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 2: is a mass spawning event. And then they just ride 653 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 2: around and release their gam meats. So it's uh, it's 654 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 2: it's It sounds like a site to behold now. As 655 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 2: with a lot of mass spawning incidents in the ocean, 656 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 2: this of course attracts the attention of a lot of predators. 657 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 2: If you're some sort of a predatory fish in the 658 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 2: vicinity and this is occurring, well you've got more than 659 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 2: an easy meal on your hands. You've got to go 660 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,400 Speaker 2: there and get a bite. And this applies to human 661 00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 2: beings as well. Plolo worms and their relatives are considered 662 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 2: quite a delicacy in various cultures. I love this now, 663 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 2: I was obviously, I was looking around for a little 664 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,200 Speaker 2: more insight on this. I wanted to know, like, what 665 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 2: what are they cooking with these? So what are they preparing? 666 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,479 Speaker 2: And I did find an article on gastro obscura by 667 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 2: Sam O'Brien pointing out that. Yeah, especially in Samoan traditions, 668 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,680 Speaker 2: the pololos are often fried up with eggs. It's they're 669 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 2: baked into bread with coconut milk and onions, or they're 670 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,800 Speaker 2: kind of like sprinkled or spread on toast. The author 671 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 2: here she describes it as a seaweed or caviar flavor, 672 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 2: but with a noodle texture. And I've seen it elsewhere 673 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 2: described as quote the caviar of the Pacific. 674 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 3: Ooh, yeah, so savory, seafoody kind of taste. That sounds wonderful. Actually, 675 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 3: I want to try it. 676 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 2: Yeah. I included a photo here for you, Joe, and 677 00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 2: I recommend everyone look up that article or just look 678 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,919 Speaker 2: up pictures in general. And the picture I have here 679 00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 2: for you, Joe is I believe it's a piece of 680 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 2: toast with this pololo spread on top. And yeah, it 681 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,800 Speaker 2: looks nice, reminiscent of like a cream spinach. I guess 682 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 2: just based on appearances. But again, the taste profile is 683 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 2: apparently more like caviar meets noodles. 684 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 3: I don't know if it's just the lighting in this picture, 685 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,960 Speaker 3: it almost looks kind of blue. It's a like a blue, yeah, 686 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 3: wilted wilted green kind of appearance spread across a piece 687 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 3: of toast. 688 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, I believe it's also a delicacy. A 689 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 2: related organism is a delicacy in Japan. So if we 690 00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:02,200 Speaker 2: have any listeners out there who've tried tried these dishes 691 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 2: or related dishes, please read it, write in and share. 692 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:05,879 Speaker 2: We'd love to hear your take on it. 693 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 3: Well, I did not expect things to go in this direction. 694 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,760 Speaker 3: I am mighty intrigued. I do want to try this food. 695 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 3: But wait a minute, I'm we got to convict. How 696 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 3: could this be mistaken for an island? 697 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 2: Okay, so after the breeding is finished, after the predators 698 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 2: have had their fill, after humans have come and harvested 699 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 2: their share of the of the spoils, the rest of it, again, 700 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,319 Speaker 2: the breeding is carried out, but apparently the rest of 701 00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 2: it then just kind of rots and disintegrates on the 702 00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:40,840 Speaker 2: surface of the water into this white oily scum. I 703 00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:46,719 Speaker 2: found multiple especially older like Western descriptions clearly describing it 704 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:52,759 Speaker 2: as a scum, an oily scum, And apparently this is 705 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,360 Speaker 2: what we could then potentially mistake for an island. I'm guessing, 706 00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 2: especially by individuals who are not familiar with the organizm 707 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 2: because you know, obviously there would be locals who would 708 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 2: know about this, because they know what is left behind 709 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 2: after they've gone out and harvested their share of the 710 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:14,359 Speaker 2: pololo worms. But if you didn't know what you're looking at, 711 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,720 Speaker 2: you might see like a big sort of gleaming oily 712 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 2: white mass and you might think that it is some 713 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 2: sort of a land mass. 714 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,640 Speaker 3: Well, so this reminds me of something we've actually talked 715 00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 3: about on the show before, which is pummus rafting phenomenon. 716 00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:32,320 Speaker 3: Sometimes after a volcanic eruption in one of these islands, 717 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 3: there will be a great outflow of pummus low density 718 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 3: rocks that actually rocks that float on the surface of 719 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 3: the water and all kind of clump together. And if 720 00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:44,560 Speaker 3: you look up pictures of this, it looks extremely weird. 721 00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 3: It's like a parking lot floating in the middle of 722 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 3: the ocean. So all of these floating phenomena, Yeah, you 723 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 3: can have a floating vegetation potentially mistaken for something that 724 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,799 Speaker 3: you know you should mark as an island on a map. 725 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,000 Speaker 3: I guess could imagine a pump us raft though that's 726 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,400 Speaker 3: a fairly transient phenomenon related to these volcanic eruptions, and 727 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,800 Speaker 3: now we've got to add a worm sex to the list. 728 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 3: Worm sex island. 729 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 2: Worm sex island. Yeah, something that again would be it 730 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 2: would it would, it would occur every year, but it 731 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,400 Speaker 2: wouldn't always be out there, and it seems entirely likely 732 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,160 Speaker 2: that the foreigners to the to these seas mind encounter 733 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 2: it and make note of it, and you could end 734 00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 2: up with an erroneous island identification. So yeah, I was 735 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:35,640 Speaker 2: not expecting to talk about worm reproduction in this episode, 736 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:37,200 Speaker 2: but that's where the research took us. 737 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,799 Speaker 3: Amazing. But hey, we are not done, are we. We've 738 00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 3: got to talk about more sunken lands. So we will 739 00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,040 Speaker 3: be back next time to explore this topic further. 740 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 2: That's right. In the meantime, will remind you that stuff. 741 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,839 Speaker 2: To Goli Your Mind is primarily a science podcast with 742 00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 2: core episodes. On Tuesdays and Thursdays, we do lister mails 743 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:59,799 Speaker 2: on Mondays. On Wednesdays we tend to do a short 744 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,680 Speaker 2: form artifact or monster fact episode, and on Fridays we 745 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,280 Speaker 2: set aside most serious concerns to watch a weird movie 746 00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,840 Speaker 2: on Weird House Cinema. If you are on social media, 747 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 2: follow our accounts because they are there active once more. 748 00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 2: If you use Instagram look us up specifically. Stbym podcast 749 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:20,680 Speaker 2: is our handle. There's an old one that has sunken 750 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 2: beneath the waves of social media, but stbym podcast is 751 00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:27,879 Speaker 2: the active one, and I think there's some pretty fun 752 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 2: stuff going up there, so so it's one way to 753 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 2: keep up. 754 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 3: With this huge thanks as always to our excellent audio 755 00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,480 Speaker 3: producer JJ Posway. If you would like to get in 756 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,040 Speaker 3: touch with us with feedback on this episode or any other, 757 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,400 Speaker 3: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to 758 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,200 Speaker 3: say hello, you can email us at contact at stuff 759 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:53,080 Speaker 3: to Blow your Mind dot com. 760 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:56,120 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 761 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 762 00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.