1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. You work your entire 2 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: life trying to build something out of nothing. Now, you 3 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: even survived World War Two as a decorated veteran of 4 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: the Navy, come home, marry your sweetheart and stayed married 5 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: for decades, and from the ground up you build restaurant 6 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: franchises and you become quite successful. And after all that time, 7 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 1: you've built something that you can look back on with pride. 8 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: You've got a family to four kids, and then you 9 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: decide to retire, and boyd where you retired to is 10 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: a beautiful place. But that location where Russell and Shirley 11 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: Dermott retired to has but I'm a benchmark for absolute 12 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,199 Speaker 1: horror and it ends up and one of the most 13 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: notorious unsolved double homicides in the history of the state 14 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: of Georgia. Today we're gonna talk about the Dermot Birds. 15 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this his body bags. Well. 16 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: Jackie Howard's back here with me today. She's the executive 17 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: producer of Crime Stories Nancy Grace. Jackie, won't you to 18 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: tell us about the dermonts year old Russell Dermond and 19 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: his wife seven year old Shirley Dermott had been married 20 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: for decades, as you said, Joe, sixty eight years. They 21 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: lived in Reynolds Plantation in a three thousand sciftfoot house. 22 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: That's a gated community on the banks of Lake o'conee 23 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 1: in Georgia. It's about eighty miles southeast of Atlanta. As 24 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: you said, Russell Dermont was in the restaurant business for years. 25 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: This couple was very socially active in their community. In fact, 26 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: they were supposed to attend a Kentucky Derby party and 27 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: didn't show up. After several more days passed and neighbors 28 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: and friends had not heard from the Dermans, they decided 29 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: to conduct their own welfare check. They went to the 30 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: home and entered through a screen porch where Russell Derman 31 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: typically watched television. Everything seemed fine, Russell was not there. 32 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:30,080 Speaker 1: They decided to check out the garage to look for cars, 33 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: and there they found a grisome sight. They discovered Russell 34 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 1: Derman's body slumped down behind one of the couple's corps. 35 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:40,720 Speaker 1: Shirley Derman was nowhere to be found. Cases like this 36 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: have always just absolutely sent a chill up my spine. 37 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: And the reason why is that as death investigators were 38 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: always observing the abnormal in context of the normal. Can 39 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:55,480 Speaker 1: you imagine being a neighbor in this beautiful, big colic setting. 40 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: I mean, these homes are worth just an astronomical amount 41 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: of money and you walk in and you find some 42 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: kind of horror show like this, and that's what happened 43 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: to this fellow that discovered Russell Derman's remains. And you 44 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: know when you kind of set the stage when you 45 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: see the Derman's home, it kind of sits up on 46 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,959 Speaker 1: a bluff or a knowle, overlooking beautiful lake of Coney, 47 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: which is very deep. It's actually a river that's been 48 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 1: damned up, and uh a lot of people fish their 49 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,079 Speaker 1: ski big recreation area, and you're you have all these 50 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: multimillion dollar homes that kind of surround this place. And 51 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: the interesting thing about it, you know, when wealthy people 52 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: live in areas like this, they're getting something for their money. 53 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: They don't just want maybe opulence, they want security. And 54 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: there's only one way by roads you can get into 55 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: this place. And that's a central point of access, a 56 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,280 Speaker 1: guard shack, if you will. When the police were called, 57 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: the first thing that they had to look at and 58 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: in trying to discover what happened to this family is 59 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: point of the entry. This murder did not seem to 60 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: be a raw break gone wrong. There was no force 61 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: to entry into the house. The house had not been ransacked, 62 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: nothing had been stolen. So what's the first thing that 63 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: you do. Well, you're you're gonna walk around the perimeter 64 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: of the place. You want to see if anybody has 65 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: knocked out windows. You know, if there's windows that are 66 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: raised for instance, Um, you want to see if the 67 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: doors the points of entry, you know, standard entry, not windows, 68 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: but you know, any kind of door. If there's a 69 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: ground level basement door that has access to the exterior 70 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: and an upper main door, uh, maybe a side door 71 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: where the garage is, you want to account for those 72 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: and see if the door locks have been jimmied in 73 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 1: any way, or if someone has actually kicked the door in. 74 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: You know, lots of times in forensics we look for 75 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 1: things like tool marks on the door, on the door 76 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: facings and that sort of thing, or compromises of the 77 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: of the door knob, or maybe even footprints on the 78 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: door where someone has pounded away with their foot. We 79 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: look to see if the frame of the door is 80 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: intact or is it Leonard And that happens with great frequency, 81 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: but there was no indication of that at the scene, 82 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: and you know, that kind of heightens the mystery. Year 83 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: So you mentioned that there's only one way in to 84 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: this gated community, Actually there's two. They could have come 85 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: by water. So if no one was noted a stranger, 86 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: someone that was out of place coming in the gated community, 87 00:05:25,120 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: does that mean then that they came by water And 88 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: how does that impact an investigation? Yeah, I think it's 89 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,040 Speaker 1: quite possible. A matter of fact, I think there's a 90 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,679 Speaker 1: higher probability that's that's how this home was accessed, because 91 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 1: there's no indication, there's no investigative marks along the way 92 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: where they say that there is a specific vehicle that 93 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: drove up to this house. And think about coming in 94 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: by boat. You can do it kind of stealthily. You know, 95 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: maybe you're running your engine, for instance, out in the 96 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: open water, but then you cut it and you began 97 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: to paddle in. If you've got a couple of people 98 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:04,960 Speaker 1: manning the boat, that's certainly easy to accomplish. So you're 99 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 1: not gonna necessarily leave as much evidence behind. There's obviously 100 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: not gonna be tire tracks left behind, you can get 101 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 1: access to the to the dock. If it's dark outside, 102 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: you can move with great stealth to gain access and listen. 103 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: If you're inside the house and you don't hear a 104 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: car pull up, you're completely taken out of wares. No 105 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: boat's not gonna make a lot of noise if the 106 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: engine is killed before you arrive at the dock, you 107 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: just kind of glide in there. You secure the boat, 108 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: you step off the boat, and you've got this evil 109 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: intent in mind. But you know, it's like the old adage, 110 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: why why do bank robbers rob the bank? Well, that's 111 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,400 Speaker 1: because that's where the money is. And when you see 112 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: a home like this that you can easily see when 113 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:50,039 Speaker 1: you're driving down the main channel of this lake, you 114 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: can actually look up there and see it, and wouldn't 115 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 1: it be a plumb prize And you think, hey, I 116 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: bet those people have money there or whatever the motivation 117 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: was behind it. But I tell you this, just like 118 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: we said, there was no signs of forced injury. Nothing's 119 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 1: missing out of the home, and for me, that's a 120 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 1: huge red flag. So unless there is evidence left at 121 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: the dock, the dock was rammed, somebody was hurt and 122 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: there was blood. Because there is water and dirt, you know, 123 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: you're gonna have mud. Somebody may have stepped into the shoreline. 124 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: So in absence of all of those things, Joe, it 125 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: would seem that you are reliant then on either eyewitnesses 126 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: or video witnesses. Yeah, and then even more peripheral to that, 127 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 1: you know, you you would be relying upon ear witnesses 128 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: as well. And that's something that people don't think about 129 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: a lot. You know, what did you hear you know, 130 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: at that particular point in time? You know, because I 131 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 1: mean how many how many times have we heard stories 132 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: about people that are killed and someone that didn't actually 133 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: see it. They'll say, hey, I heard gunshots, all right, 134 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: or I heard somebody screaming, you know, or I heard 135 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:05,040 Speaker 1: a car pull up. So many times that's a that's 136 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:08,280 Speaker 1: a point that we can return to. But the most 137 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: essential factor involved in this is that even if if 138 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: it's something that you see, or if it's something that 139 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: you hear, at what point in time did you hear it? Because, 140 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: as you know, the most valuable commodity that we have 141 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: in forensic investigations is in fact minutes, seconds, hours, days, weeks, months, 142 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: that time element is what we deal in. That's our currency, 143 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: if you will. So you have to be able to 144 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: match it up. And to this point there's there's not 145 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: You don't have either one of these things, you know, 146 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: the first time that there's an indication that something is up. 147 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: Other than the fact that they didn't attend this Kentucky 148 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: Derby party, um is the fact that this genoman walked 149 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: in the house and he found Russell Norham there lying 150 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 1: on the floor in his garage. Other than the fact 151 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,360 Speaker 1: that ear witnesses as you call them, set the timeline, 152 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,839 Speaker 1: does it really give you anything else? Because if they 153 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: did not hear anyone screaming, they can say, oh I 154 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: heard a boat, but you're on a lake. What does 155 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: that really tell you? Yeah, it's like living next to 156 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: the highway, you know, Oh I heard a car. Really wow, 157 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: that's really gonna be useful, you know, it's I'm not 158 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: trying to be snarky, but it's just it's just the 159 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: fact that, um, you know, you got as you put 160 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: you know, you've got boats running around all the time, 161 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: people night fish. You know, if this is when this 162 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 1: event occurred, you know, it wouldn't be anything to hear 163 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: you know, some guy in a in a bass boat 164 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: and running up and down the lake, you know, and 165 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: those engines are quite loud. But if it was something smaller, 166 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 1: say like a tiny skiff with a smaller boat motor, 167 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: or they had an electric motor, that you're not going 168 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,960 Speaker 1: to hear at all. Um. You know, that goes back 169 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,360 Speaker 1: to this issue of stealth. So you really left at 170 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: at you know, with this case, you're really left, as 171 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: an investigator, scratch in your head saying, I don't have 172 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: any kind of whit us at all to these events. 173 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: The only thing that is really left behind are these forensics. 174 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: You know that what what are the bodies telling us? 175 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: What is the scene telling us? And we've already you know, 176 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 1: kind of talked about the scene. Now there's no signs 177 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: or force and entry or struggle. You know, we say 178 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:17,920 Speaker 1: that all the time on the news and whatnot, and 179 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: we say it in our reports as well, you know, 180 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: because it's one of the things that we look for 181 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 1: if we have some kind of horrific crime that has 182 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 1: taken place, we want to know, well, was there a 183 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: fight that ensued? Youve got toppled furniture. Do you have 184 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: anything here that really gives us an indication that there 185 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 1: was some kind of problem that had happened where they've 186 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 1: taken unawares for instance, where they compliant in in in 187 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: this particular case. And you know, so the investigators don't 188 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: really have a lot to work on, and I think 189 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: that that's the reason that this case is still unsolved 190 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: to this day. Jackie. And the things that we're talking 191 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: about right now, Joe, the entry from the water, the 192 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: lack of evidence, the earwitnesses, the video witness is are 193 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: so significant because Russell Dermott is dead, but Shirley Dermont 194 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: is missing. Yeah, that's the case. And of course if 195 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: you're an investigator and look, they were able to size 196 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: up pretty quickly from the neighbors and witnesses. You know, 197 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,480 Speaker 1: these two are a pair. You know, you generally don't 198 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: see one without the other. They go around, he said, 199 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: they're very social. They have friends that live in this community. 200 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: I think that Shirley was involved in bridge. Russell used 201 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: to play golf, but he had he had stopped doing 202 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: that and he didn't really fish. They got rid of 203 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: their boats, so he's in that home. She's in that home. 204 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: When they go out, you know, they're generally together. They 205 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: are a couple, So that's that's indicative of the lifestyle. 206 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: You know that they had lad and it gives you 207 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 1: an ideas from a behavior standpoint of what you would 208 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: expect in this kind of dynamic, in this environment, that 209 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: they were probably there together whenever this horrific thing took place. 210 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: But when the investigators showed up, they're working assumption at 211 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: that moment time is yeah, we have we have Mr 212 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: Dermot deceased here in the garage, but Sirley is nowhere 213 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: to be found. And we go back to this theme. 214 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: You know what I had mentioned this This house is big. 215 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 1: It's three thousand square foot home that's occupied by two 216 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: people in a very very wealthy area. Your default position, 217 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: all of a sudden is, well, maybe somebody snatched her. 218 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: Maybe they've kidnapped her and taken off with her. And 219 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: but if that's the case, there's nobody falling us. There's 220 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: no letters, there's no note left behind to say that 221 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: these are our ransom demands. That's not happening. All they 222 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: know is that she is seemingly just vanished into thin air. 223 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: When you have no witnesses, sometimes the the dead have 224 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: to be relied upon to bear witness and give testimony 225 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 1: to all the remains, and in this case, all we 226 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: had was Russell Dermot's body. We've talked about the complexities 227 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: of this investigation already with no sign of struggle. But Joe, 228 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:26,359 Speaker 1: what we do have is a body in the garage, 229 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:32,440 Speaker 1: Russell Dermont. Joe. Russell was decapitated. His head has never 230 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: been found. How do we do this investigation that begs 231 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: so many questions? Jackie. You know, when you begin to 232 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 1: think about a body, apps and a head um, you know, 233 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: first off, what's what's the rationale? And I think that 234 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: for many people, investigators included, when you look at a 235 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: case like this, you think that you've got to some 236 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: type of psychopathic madman that's running around the countryside. And 237 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: that's kind of our default position because it's such a 238 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: horrific act. However, that's that's not always the case when 239 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: it comes to the dismemberment of remains are partial dismemberment 240 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 1: in this case, Remember, his head is the only part 241 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 1: of his body that is missing. Everything else is intact. 242 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: And with Russell's remains, there was evidence, at least in 243 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: my mind, after reading and reviewing the autopsy reports that 244 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: his head was taken, and I think that we need 245 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: to check this box first. His head was taken postmortem. 246 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: Of course, we have any mortum and postmortem post mortem 247 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: means after death. And the reason I think that is 248 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 1: that per the information that was relayed from the friends 249 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: of pathologists, there are no what we referred to as 250 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: focal areas of hemorrhage in the tissue of the neck. 251 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: And also it's interesting to note that when the investigators 252 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: got to the scene and they saw his his body 253 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: that at the scene it has been consistently described that 254 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: there was only a tiny bit of blood that was 255 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: immediately adjacent to what was remaining of his neck. Now, 256 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: if this had been say an event where they had 257 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,040 Speaker 1: taken a knife or some sharp object and cut Russell 258 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: Derman's throat on the way to a decapitation, we do 259 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 1: know this that there would have been blood everywhere. You 260 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: say why, the reason is is that we've discussed before 261 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: on bodybacks how vascular the head is. It requires a 262 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of blood and you would have to go 263 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: through uh, you'd have to go through the juggler veins, 264 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: you'd have to go through the carotid arteries, all the 265 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:43,680 Speaker 1: while the heart is pumping until of course, life ceases. 266 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 1: But all the while you're just you will have an 267 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: uh an area that's literally flooded with blood. That's not 268 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 1: the case. So whoever did this, whoever did this, took 269 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: time with his remains and took his head off. And 270 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: if folks at home will kind of consider their spine, 271 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: uh their neck in particular the vertebral bodies that support 272 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: our neck. If you will go from the base of 273 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: your skull, let's see one. Let's C two, C three, 274 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: C four, C five count down. And his head was 275 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 1: removed at the C five level, and the doctors described 276 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: that they went all the way through all of the tissue, 277 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: the soft tissue again with no hemorrhage. And they have apparently, 278 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: and this is important, transsected the C five verebra. And 279 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: when they say transsected, that means that they didn't go 280 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: through the disk, they actually cut through bone. And from 281 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: an evidentially standpoint, that's a very y important Jackie. So 282 00:16:49,680 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 1: at autopsy, one of the things that's done when you 283 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: have any kind of dismemberment case is that, as horrible 284 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: as it is to be part of an investigation like this, 285 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: you as a forensic scientists, you have a particular skill 286 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:08,719 Speaker 1: set that you can bring to bear that can actually 287 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: identify what the instrument was that brought about this decapitation. 288 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: And it's important because they said that the Sea five 289 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 1: was actually transsected, so that means that you're gonna have 290 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: marks on the bone. So anybody that's listening to this, 291 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: if you have a saw in your home, I want 292 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,159 Speaker 1: you to think about the way the teeth look on 293 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:29,760 Speaker 1: saw or even a serrated knife. You know, they have 294 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: a very specific pattern. And even if a saw or 295 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: serrated knife is made by the same manufacturer, that pattern 296 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,400 Speaker 1: is going to change over the course of the use 297 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: of that instrument. It will slightly change and it will 298 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: make the signature, the tool mark signature left behind unique 299 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: to that particular instrument. So at autopsy I can almost 300 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: guarantee what they had done is where that bone was 301 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: transsected that Sea five. Keep that in mind, Sea five 302 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: the a cervical vertebra. They would have completely dissected out 303 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:09,560 Speaker 1: the remainder of that Sea five vertebra, and then they 304 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 1: took it and they placed it into a container with 305 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: what we call formula. The formulae is kind of like 306 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: from aldehyde. It's a preservative, and they're going to hang 307 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: on to that jack. And let me tell you why, 308 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 1: because at some point in time, if they're able to 309 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 1: find out who perpetrated this crime, get wind of it, 310 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: if they can put their hands on that tool that 311 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: they took his head off with, they can have a 312 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: tool market examiner look at that remaining bone and compare 313 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 1: that to the instrument that was used by these perpetrators 314 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: to decapitate Russell Dermot. Okay, I got two very specific questions, 315 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:53,360 Speaker 1: were you, Joe, First, what is transsected? When you hear 316 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: this term transsected, trans means going across, So they're actually 317 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: cutting across the bone. Almost if you think about sawing 318 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: a piece of wood, Okay, you're not going to cut 319 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 1: it lengthwise, You're gonna cut it across the grain, essentially. 320 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: And if you'll just imagine that whoever was doing this, 321 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: whoever was doing this, was essentially sawing more than likely 322 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 1: on the back of the neck because you get you 323 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: get quicker access to those bony prominences back there that 324 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,719 Speaker 1: support and hold it literally hold the head in place. 325 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: So you want to be able to take the head 326 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: off at that point because you can remove it and 327 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: then do whatever it is that you plan on doing 328 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 1: with Okay, my second question is, as you were talking 329 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: about the C one, two, three, four, and five, I'm 330 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:43,359 Speaker 1: reaching back to the back of my head in my 331 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: neck trying to feel and figure out what you're talking about. 332 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: What should I be feeling? How am I going to 333 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: identify and know what you're talking about here? It will 334 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: walk me through knowing where that is. So our head 335 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: is actually supported and I think we've mentioned this before 336 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:00,479 Speaker 1: on other episodes, but our head is actually reported by 337 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:05,879 Speaker 1: C one otherwise known as the Atlas. And people that 338 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: don't know what the Atlas is, it's it refers back 339 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: to Greek mythology. I think one of the earliest entities 340 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,719 Speaker 1: within Greek mythology who was Atlas. And you see these 341 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: images of this gigantic man holding up the earth on 342 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:23,959 Speaker 1: his back, and he's the Atlas, He's the supporter. So 343 00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: SEE one actually works as a support body. It supports 344 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: our head. I'm not going to be able to feel 345 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: see one correct. Well, if you go up and you 346 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,119 Speaker 1: press tightly enough, you can go up to the base 347 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: of your skull, the very base where your skull connects 348 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: onto onto the spine and if you press hard enough, 349 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: you can actually feel it right there. But you need 350 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,480 Speaker 1: to count down essentially approximately every two inches you're gonna 351 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: come to a new vertebral body. So and that's kind 352 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: of a you know, I'm kind of a big guy, 353 00:20:57,200 --> 00:20:59,119 Speaker 1: So I'm kind of moving down the back of my 354 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: neck right now and I'm counting down one and a 355 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 1: half to two inches every moment. And you can feel 356 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: because there's a little depression that's where your disk actually sits. 357 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 1: So you get down from one to two, two to three, 358 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: three to four, four to five, and you're right on 359 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 1: top of it. So what the doctor is saying is 360 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: that instead of going through that kind of depressed soft 361 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: area where a disk is, people here about getting a 362 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: slip disc. It's kind of cartilaginist. It's softer than the bone. 363 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: This individual that cut through uh Russell Derman's neck actually 364 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: went through a bony prominence, you know, actually transsected or 365 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: cut into the bone. And they made a big mistake 366 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: when they did that because every time they would drag 367 00:21:43,680 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: that saw across that specific area, the teeth of whatever 368 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: this instrument is, and they've never been very specific about 369 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: it is leaving behind definitive markings on the surface of 370 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 1: that mam. So microscopically, if you can get your hands 371 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,879 Speaker 1: on whatever bladed was that generated this and compare it 372 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: microscopically to those marks that are left on the bone, 373 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: you can have a tie back. The question is can 374 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: they put that instrument into the hands of an individual. 375 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,719 Speaker 1: And it's not just the specific instrument, but it's also 376 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: it's also a class or family they of of instruments. Say, 377 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 1: for instance, they can look at and say, well, this 378 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:25,160 Speaker 1: is this wasn't a limb saw, this was a carpenter saw, 379 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: or this was a hack saw, or for all I know, 380 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: it could be a circular saw. But with that, it's 381 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: another question that's asked because even when you're sawing, even 382 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: when you're doing this, this would have left behind quite 383 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 1: a bit of blood just in this action, and not 384 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: just that but bone, dust, tissue, that sort of thing. 385 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: So I really wonder if they hadn't placed him on 386 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: something in order to facilitate this, like a piece of 387 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: cloth or shirts or something like that, and then gather 388 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: things up and took that with them as well, because remember, 389 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: his head's missing, Jackie, so is a owne bone. Joe 390 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: regardless of where it is in the body. The bones 391 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: in the neck, the C one, C two are smaller 392 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: just in general from the size. And we've talked about 393 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: it linked dismemberment, about how really difficult it is to 394 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: do that. Is it any different when you're trying to 395 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: do it at the neck? You know, I would opind 396 00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: that it's probably a bit more simple because if you're 397 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: doing it posteriorly, which we all know now because we've 398 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: talked about this on on body bags, anatomically posterior means 399 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: from the rear, okay, the backside, and so h the 400 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: as I stated earlier, when you begin to kind of 401 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: fill your cervical spine, it's very close to the surface. 402 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: It's not like, say, for instance, if we went to 403 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: the leg, to the upper leg where the femur is 404 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:49,119 Speaker 1: our big thigh bone. You've got to go through a 405 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: lot of soft tissue to get down to the femur. 406 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: I mean a lot, and it's a mess when you 407 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: do that. But in the cervical region, those bony prominences 408 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,439 Speaker 1: or those those bony ructures, and they are very very close. 409 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: Now I can tell you this. You were talking about 410 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: differences in bone, there will be bone density issues, because 411 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: every bone has a structure in and of itself. But 412 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: if you were to take a look at bone um microscopically, 413 00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: bone is bone, you know you're gonna see it, and 414 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: you can't necessarily pick a point of origin. I'm sure 415 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,280 Speaker 1: that there are some pathology types and anatomy types that 416 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 1: would probably argue with me on that, But for our 417 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: purposes here, bone is in fact bone, It's just can 418 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: you get access to it? And this is more important. 419 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: Do you have the tools and the knowledge to be 420 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 1: able to pull this off? To facilitate it? What's your 421 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: level of nerve here? I think about that, you know, 422 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: I mean, how many people do we know that are 423 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: wandering around the general population that have actually decapitated somebody? 424 00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: Just let that sink in just for a second. Now 425 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: we get so numb to all the violence in our world, 426 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: but just just for a moment, pause and think about 427 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 1: who out there would have the nerves of Steve All 428 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: to take someone's life and then not flee, but stay 429 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 1: around long enough to acquire instruments or have instruments to 430 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 1: take a head off with. And I got one more 431 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 1: interesting little aside that I don't know how many other 432 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: people have really addressed in Russell Derman's death, and that 433 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: is they don't really have a lot of injuries to 434 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: his body. But there's one that really stands out to 435 00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 1: me that is actually not post mortem, not post mortem, 436 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: it's anti mortum. And the doctor makes note of it. 437 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:40,920 Speaker 1: And if everybody will take their right hand and extend 438 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: it out and consider your hand just for a moment 439 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: and look at your index finger. That's the finger that's 440 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:52,640 Speaker 1: right adjacent to your thumb. Right there. Russell Derman sustained 441 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 1: a crushing injury, a crushing injury Jackie, to his right 442 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: index finger. The doctor says specifically that it is a 443 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: him a ragic injury, and that means that this is 444 00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:09,639 Speaker 1: an anti mortem injury. This can only occur in life, 445 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: so that means that his heart was still pumping and 446 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: it literally crushed his finger. Now to me, you begin 447 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: to talk about things like this and why would his 448 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: finger be crushed? Well, why would it? And I really 449 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 1: wonder if people were not trying to exact information from him. 450 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: Maybe it was information relative to money. Do you have 451 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: money here? You're gonna pay pay the price with pain 452 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: here if you don't give us the information and they 453 00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: crushed his finger in life. Imagine not painful that was. 454 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,640 Speaker 1: And maybe he told him something that they didn't want 455 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: to hear, and it's at that moment that took his life. 456 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,120 Speaker 1: So there's one other fascinating piece of evidence that came 457 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 1: out in the police investigation into Russell Derman's death. Even 458 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: though he was to appitated, they found gunshot residue on 459 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: his collar. Yeah, they did. And how in the world 460 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: are you going to have gunshot residue deposition UM arising 461 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: on your collar and to say that it's on the collar, 462 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 1: I guess, I guess you could say that it is um. 463 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: It could be any area in the collar. It could 464 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: be posterior, anterior, it could be lateral. They just simply 465 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: say um on the surface of the collar. And that 466 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: has led many people to think that the rationale behind 467 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: decapitating Russell Dermott was that he had been executed, possibly 468 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 1: with a single gunshot wound of the head. Now this 469 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: raises another problem. You know that you have taken this 470 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: guy's life potentially with gunfire. You have enough smarts about 471 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: you to know if that bullet is recovered that they 472 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,400 Speaker 1: could in fact pair that up with a weapon out there. 473 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: So what do you do? Know your default position is, well, 474 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: the simplest thing I can do is I can't. I 475 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,719 Speaker 1: certainly can't do some type of postmortem surgery on him 476 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: and removed his bullet. May have to take his head 477 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: because in taking his head, I know that I'm going 478 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: to take that projectile. Over the years that I've covered 479 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: this case, I've often wondered what was going on with 480 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: Shirley Dermott and when the police first arrived there, she 481 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,920 Speaker 1: was nowhere to be found, And it has often really 482 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: bothered me. I think about my own wife, you know, 483 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: what state of mind, what she had been in, what 484 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: was going on with her? Where did they find her? 485 00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: Joe investigators trolled the lake, but to no avail. They 486 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: did not find Shirley's body. They also searched the wooded 487 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: area surrounding the home no body. But on the sixteenth 488 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 1: of May, which was approximately a little over two weeks later, 489 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: Shirley Derman's bloated body was discovered floating on Lake a 490 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: Coney by two fishermen. It was about five miles away 491 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: from the couple's home. There are several important points in 492 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: the discovery of Shirley's body, Joe, So let's take them 493 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: one by one. First, is the fact that when Shirley 494 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: Dermot's body was found, it was obvious that the intention 495 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: was for her body to not be found. Two large 496 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 1: cinder blocks had been tied to her body that way 497 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: to thirty pounds each. Wouldn't sixty pounds be enough to 498 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: keep a body submerged. No, no, it would not, particularly 499 00:29:55,880 --> 00:30:00,720 Speaker 1: as bodies begin to blow, which always happens. I mean, 500 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: it happens, um you know, people talk about this all 501 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: the time. I can confirm for you. As decomposition develops, uh, 502 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: the body begins to swell with gas. And when bodies, 503 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: when you have bodies that are found in water, the 504 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: body essentially becomes almost like a a booie. It will 505 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: float to the top. The air, you know, forces it 506 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: up until the body in some way is punctured and 507 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: the air is released. Then it can sometimes um re 508 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 1: submerge at that point in time. But you know, you 509 00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: mentioned an important part here, Jackie, is the fact that 510 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: these blocks were with her body, and they weren't just 511 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: with her body. And this is this is ghastly, It's 512 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: absolutely ghastly. These blocks were actually secure to her ankles. 513 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: So if you think of the way a balloon looks, 514 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: where we hold a balloon by string in our end 515 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: and then the balloon floats high above us um, that's 516 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: similar to this configuration. These blocks were actually secured to 517 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: Shirley Derman's ankles with what's referred to as para cord, 518 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: and para cord. You see it in the military a lot. 519 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:22,040 Speaker 1: You also see people that do camping securing things. It's 520 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: a woven nylon rope that has very specific pattern to it, 521 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 1: and it's a multicolor growth that they used, and they 522 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: all have different strengths, you know, the kind of weight 523 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: that they can support and this sort of thing. But 524 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: with her, it was bound wrapped around her several times 525 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: at her ankles. I mean, somebody really took the time 526 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: to make sure that buddy wasn't going anywhere. That in 527 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: itself is very significant, Joe, because we know that the 528 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: body was found about five miles from the couple's home. 529 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: The current in this lake, even though you talked about 530 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: there's a channel in this lake that's deep, the current 531 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,280 Speaker 1: in this lake, given that it is a lake, there's 532 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: not gonna be a current really, So we're not talking 533 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 1: about the body drifting five miles from the home, so 534 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: it's very obvious that they moved her body, intending it 535 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: at this distance to never be found. Yeah, you're right, 536 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: and there's been several people that have talked about this 537 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: from the perspective of damn releases. Now, for anybody that's 538 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 1: never been on a lake where there's been a damn release, 539 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: it's something powerful when the water is released out of 540 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: the dam into the lower lake, which in this case 541 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: is Lake Sinclair says below Lake o'coney. It's a tremendous 542 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: amount of force, but it's still not enough to drag 543 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: her body with this amount of weight on it through 544 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: this channel and then deposit it where it was, Because 545 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,880 Speaker 1: that's that's even more interesting here, Jackie. That's why I 546 00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: believe that whoever did this had a great familiarity with 547 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 1: this area, because not only was she literally five miles downstream, 548 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: but her body you had to make in order to 549 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: get to the location when she was found, and she 550 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 1: was found by fisherman, you had to make a sharp 551 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: right hand turn off the main channel and go back 552 00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:13,040 Speaker 1: up into a cove. Jackie. It's almost if if people 553 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: at home will just kind of envision what a fish 554 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,440 Speaker 1: hook looks like and the long stem of the fish 555 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: hook is the long axis. Pretend that's the channel, and 556 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: then it goes down, curves back up to the point. 557 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: That point on the fish hook is where the body 558 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: would have been found. So it would it, in my opinion, 559 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 1: at least the people would have had to have transported 560 00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 1: her body to that location and pushed her off into 561 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: this area. I think one of the things they didn't 562 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: count on. Maybe they weren't so familiar with the depth 563 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 1: in this area, because when you combine the depth of 564 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: the water, maybe a damn release lack of rain. This 565 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: is you know, it's in the warm months, maybe the 566 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 1: water levels down just a wee bit, and then you 567 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: think about decomposition the body. Right, that's how these fishermen 568 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: noticed her in the water at that amount of time. 569 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:08,200 Speaker 1: Can you imagine, can you actually imagine going out and 570 00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,080 Speaker 1: you're just going fishing for the day, You're just going fishing, 571 00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: and suddenly you look down in the water and here's 572 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: this poor woman's body. It's been sitting there for a 573 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: protracted period of time. It's an absolute horse show. So 574 00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 1: then we get to the autopsy. Joe Shirley Dermond was 575 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 1: killed by blunt force trauma, and the pathologist suspect that 576 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: it was caused by a hammer. What gave them those indications. 577 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: That's a very significant finding that the pathologist came up with. 578 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: I want to back up just a little bit, just 579 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: so that folks understand meantimes, when we're talking about homicides 580 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 1: involving females, we we always wonder if there's a sexual component, 581 00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:54,880 Speaker 1: and one of the things we look for is to 582 00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:56,960 Speaker 1: see the status of the clothing. That's actually how we 583 00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,719 Speaker 1: refer to it. I want you to know that Mrs 584 00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 1: Derman remains. She was completely clothed. I mean she had 585 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: on everything from a floral patterned shirt. She still had 586 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: a brawn bright green pants, She had underpants on, even 587 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 1: had her socks on with her shoes with orthopedic inserts. 588 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: And this is kind of significant. She actually had two 589 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: breastpads in place. Did you know that she had undergone 590 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 1: a radical double missectomy, and so all of that was intact. 591 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 1: There was nothing to indicate that this was anything of 592 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: some kind of sexual nature, at least based upon the 593 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 1: clothing status. So when the doctor received the body at 594 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: the medical Examiner's office, he did a very very thorough 595 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: job of examining her, looked at the knots actually her 596 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,880 Speaker 1: the rigging that came along with, you know, her body 597 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 1: being submerged actually entered entered the morgue with her. And 598 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: it's very interesting that when you begin to look at 599 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: the knots, this is what we referred to in forensics 600 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: as complex not tying, which means that somebody probably had 601 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: experienced tying nuts, working with rope and that sort of thing, 602 00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 1: and to secure because her these these blocks were still 603 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,919 Speaker 1: secure to her body. And one little side I don't 604 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: think that people may be aware of. Did you know 605 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:20,720 Speaker 1: that these blocks had actually been painted red. These weren't 606 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: just like standard blocks that you would see at a 607 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 1: construction site. These things were red. And I found that 608 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,720 Speaker 1: absolutely fascinating, you know. So that's another big piece of evidence. 609 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: And then talking about the the fatal injuries that she 610 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: had sustained. UM, the way the doctor actually describes these 611 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: there is um her death is actually related to what's 612 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: referred to specifically as blunt force trauma. But UM, she 613 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: was struck they think at least twice, maybe three times 614 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: with something that had a rounded, flat leading edge. UM. 615 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: And we we talked about this just previously in in 616 00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: one of our other cases on bodybags, referring to a 617 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: claw hammer. You think about the end of a hammer. 618 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: A hammer, you know, has essentially the dimensions on the 619 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: business end of the hammer where it looks. It can 620 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,040 Speaker 1: be the size of say the face of a quarter 621 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: if the quarters leaning flat. And so what happens is 622 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: when a skull is struck with a hammer. Did you 623 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: know that you can sustain a what's referred to as 624 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: a pattern injury there? Um, that is actually a circular 625 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: fracture underlying the pattern on the skin, and it it mirrors, 626 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: it mirrors the oncoming the oncoming hammers it strikes. This 627 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: is referred to as a depressed skull fracture where the 628 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:50,160 Speaker 1: table external table of the skull actually collapses and it 629 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: drives in to the brain. Of course, this leads to 630 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,200 Speaker 1: um huge hemorrhage um within the brain, and of course 631 00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,760 Speaker 1: the person winds up dying as a result. This particularly, 632 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: you began to think about how many times she was struck. 633 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: But this is a real act of violence. Um, This 634 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: is not like you know, even with Mr Dermott, we 635 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 1: think about him being shot. Um, if that is in 636 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 1: fact what had happened. Remember, we still don't have have 637 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 1: his head at this point. Um, that's kind of a 638 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: quick way to die when you think about it. But no, not, not, 639 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:29,520 Speaker 1: not this Jackie. She was beaten multiple times with a hammer, 640 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: her skull actually collapsed in on her brain, and then 641 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:35,440 Speaker 1: she was tied up post mortum. How do I know 642 00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,279 Speaker 1: that it was post mortem because where those bindings were 643 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:43,120 Speaker 1: placed over her ankles and she was essentially anchored with 644 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,280 Speaker 1: this destructure that they had created, there was no underlying 645 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 1: hemorrhage in those areas surrounding her her ankles. So it's 646 00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 1: not like she had been tied up before death and 647 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: been questioned or anything like that. Her hands weren't bound, 648 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: it's just her ankles. So this was that was done 649 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: after death. They took their time in planning this, and 650 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: then you begin to think about, well they got in 651 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: a boat and drove five mills with this poor woman's body. 652 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: You know, where did all of this take place? Did 653 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 1: they kill her in the yard because there was no 654 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 1: blood in the house. They didn't find any blood that 655 00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: I know of out in the yard. I wonder if 656 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: they brought in dogs to sniff for it. And if 657 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 1: you put her on a boat, and you kill her 658 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: on the boat, then dogs are not necessarily gonna be 659 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:32,439 Speaker 1: able to track that area. You're not gonna have any 660 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: evidence of it. Did they take her out in the 661 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 1: middle of the lake and beat her to death with 662 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,319 Speaker 1: a hammer and then drive the other the rest of 663 00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,920 Speaker 1: the distance and deposit her body weigh down stream in 664 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:43,879 Speaker 1: this little cove where they thought that no one would 665 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:47,400 Speaker 1: ever find her. Of course they did, And to this 666 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,399 Speaker 1: day we still don't have any further answers. I said, 667 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: who did this? So, Joe, it's been seven years since 668 00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: the Germans were murdered two thousand fourteen. We are still 669 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: no closer to finding out who did this? Will we 670 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,360 Speaker 1: ever be? Think as time goes by, there's there's always 671 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: a possibility. I have to always hold out hope in 672 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,239 Speaker 1: any case involving death. I mean, death is what I've 673 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 1: always dealt in as an investigator. But you know, at 674 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 1: this point, to this point, at least the forensics are done. 675 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 1: What's going to have to happen here is that the 676 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 1: public and the police are gonna have to come together 677 00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:24,200 Speaker 1: on this case, this unsolved case. This is going to 678 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: be heavily reliant upon shoe leather, as they say, you know, 679 00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: still pressing every lead that you possibly can. And this 680 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: is one other thing that's kind of troubling to me 681 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 1: is that many of the people that lived near the 682 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:47,439 Speaker 1: Dermans were aged, and it's not like, you know, you're 683 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,920 Speaker 1: around a bunch of mid twenty somethings that are going 684 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:52,760 Speaker 1: to be around for a few years that can still 685 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: offer up information. My my fear, I think is that 686 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:58,840 Speaker 1: anybody that might have some kind of recollection as to 687 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: what they remember back all these years looking in the 688 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: rear view mirror, they still gonna be around to give 689 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: us further information or to highlight something, or to come 690 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:09,560 Speaker 1: up with a new nugget of data that's going to 691 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: push this case forward. And that that's the one troubling 692 00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,399 Speaker 1: aspect with this. I'm just hoping that at some point 693 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,879 Speaker 1: in time, somebody is going to say something that they 694 00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,920 Speaker 1: probably wish that they wouldn't have said in retrospect, but 695 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 1: it winds up unlocking the answers in this kid, I'm 696 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott More and this is Body Backs