1 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Any notion of reaching across these divides is seen as compromise, 2 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,320 Speaker 1: is seen as selling out. And yet would experience in 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:14,079 Speaker 1: other countries have shown and not just the Mendelos and 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,560 Speaker 1: many others, you know, we have to find a way 5 00:00:16,560 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 1: to bridge this. Welcome to How to Citizen with Baritune Day, 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: a podcast that reimagine citizen as a verb, not a 7 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: legal status. This season is all about how we practice democracy, 8 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: what can we get rid of, what can we invent, 9 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,599 Speaker 1: and how do we change the culture of democracy itself, 10 00:00:36,920 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: relieving the theoretical clouds and hitting the ground with inspiring 11 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: examples of people and institutions that are showing us new 12 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: ways to govern ourselves. Throughout season four, we've spent a 13 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: lot of time dreaming up and defining what a culture 14 00:00:56,800 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: of democracy can look and feel like. And that collective 15 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: vision is beautiful and motivating. But to build the culture 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 1: we want, we also need to face the one we've got, 17 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: and right now, I think that culture is conflict. Our 18 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: democracy is based on this extreme version of in group outgroup. 19 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,760 Speaker 1: We don't just disagree, we dehumanize And I'm not a 20 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 1: both sides kind of person. I think the right has 21 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: done a lot more of this, but I've experienced it 22 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: from the left too, and I know that nobody's got 23 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: a monopoly on our garbage culture. We've all become more 24 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: deeply entrenched in our differences, and many of us don't 25 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: see or don't want to see a path toward being 26 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: in community with people on the other side. Throw in guns, 27 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: sensational media, and a political system that rewards outlandishness, and 28 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: the division we experience looks much more like a feature 29 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: than a bug Listen. Sometimes I wish everyone I disagreed 30 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: with would just read that article I sent them and 31 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: realize how wrong they are. Other Times I find myself 32 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: asking if we can just split the country in half, 33 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: call it a day. We tried, and we move on separately. 34 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: But community cannot be defined by total alignment on everything. 35 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: That's not community. That's a cult. And we're trying to 36 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: live together better here. That's the mission, and that living 37 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: together requires living with an incredible amount of difference. We've 38 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: been talking a lot about bringing democracy home, but it's 39 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: hard to practice democracy at home when there are members 40 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:54,320 Speaker 1: of our families we can't talk to because they've been 41 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 1: sucked into conspiracy, because they're part of a dehumanizing political 42 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:03,840 Speaker 1: culture or their opinions and mere presence feel so opposed 43 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: to our own that it's hard to practice anything with them. 44 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: But if we stop trying and just accept that this 45 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: is the way things are, this division will only get worse. 46 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 1: I'm must confess that I have this fear. I fear 47 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: and I feel the possibility of truly escalated armed conflict 48 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: along politically divided lines in this country, something we haven't 49 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: experienced on mass you know, since our Civil war, and 50 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,320 Speaker 1: we're not currently in that state. We're not living through 51 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: that literally right now, but it's a nightmare many of 52 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 1: us carry, and it's an actual lived reality that other 53 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: people around the world have gone through quite recently. Tim 54 00:03:55,520 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: Phillips and his organization Beyond Conflict have been facilitating conversations 55 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: between the victims and perpetrators of extreme violence and harm 56 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: for over thirty years. I reached out to hear how 57 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: they've helped people work through life altering conflict so we 58 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,480 Speaker 1: can gain some insights into how we avoid the path 59 00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: that Rwanda, Northern Ireland and so many other countries have 60 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: already been down. After the break my first of two 61 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 1: conversations with Tim Phillips, which took place a few weeks 62 00:04:27,440 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 1: after the January sixth insurrection. Tim, thank you so much 63 00:04:38,080 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: for spending time with me and with us. And I'm 64 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: here with you in part because I had a great 65 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 1: experience with your organization through a gathering in downtown Los 66 00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: Angeles a few years back. And the specifics are no 67 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: longer with me, but the emotion is my mind felt 68 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:56,799 Speaker 1: almost literally blown. I've done a lot of work around 69 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: race and people feeling disconnected from each other and polarized, 70 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: and there was something your facilitators did that helped us 71 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: all see the world a little differently. So I just 72 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: want to take this personal, selfish opportunity to thank you 73 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: for that experience, thank you for training people and not 74 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 1: just you, to do some of this work, and thanks 75 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: again for making time. I'd love to start him with 76 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: a more personal question. Can you tell me something about 77 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 1: yourself that surprises you? Yeah? Thank you. That's a really 78 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: good question, and surprises me is maybe this is getting 79 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: very personal, but I've been doing this work internationally for 80 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: over thirty years and I still struggle with feeling agency 81 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: in this work, and it surprises me. But it also 82 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: reflects on the challenge of the work. I think we 83 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: both are trying to do, which is, how do you 84 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: give people agency in this world? How do you give 85 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: people a sense that they can really become agents of 86 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: their own personal lives, but of the people around them. 87 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,119 Speaker 1: And you know, because we're coming up in thirty years 88 00:06:05,120 --> 00:06:07,960 Speaker 1: and most of our work was international in the last 89 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 1: five years, started working here in the United States, I 90 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: really started reflecting on the work of the internationally to 91 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,280 Speaker 1: bring it home to this country. And I started really 92 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: thinking about what allowed me to go overseas in my 93 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,919 Speaker 1: late twenties was I knew what exclusion felt like. I 94 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: knew what humiliation felt like, I knew what feeling less 95 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: than equal felt like, and not in a sense gave 96 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:33,239 Speaker 1: me an emotional connection to the difficulty of this work. 97 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 1: And I think thinking about where we are as a 98 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: country and the challenges we face has also been reflection 99 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: on my own journey. Can I press you on the 100 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: humiliation that you were familiar with, which sounds like it's 101 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: helped you do this work? What was that for you? Well? 102 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: I grew up the youngest of six children, grew up 103 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,160 Speaker 1: in a housing project here in Boston, what was used 104 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: to be called veterans housing. I didn't like the fact 105 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: that we lived there because I was being haunted. I 106 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: was being judged. Often hearing parents will say to their 107 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,720 Speaker 1: son I was in school with why are you hanging 108 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: out with that kid from the projects? And so that 109 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: really shaped a part of me to feel, you know, 110 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: I know what this shit feels like. But also I 111 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: had a mother who said, no, you live in Buckingham Palace. 112 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,440 Speaker 1: And years later I saw the real Buckingham Palace and 113 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: I said to my mother. I took out a trip 114 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,920 Speaker 1: to London with my sisters. I said, let me just 115 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: show you. This ain't Buckingham Palace where we grew up. 116 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 1: But the point is is that, you know, I had 117 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: both nupbringing that knew what exclusion and humiliation and fear 118 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: felt like. But I also had, like many people, parents 119 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: who said, this isn't what defines you as a human being, 120 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: in your family, in your community. But to your point 121 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: about humiliation, I remember when I started going overseas in 122 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: the late eighties early nineties, particularly at the end of 123 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: the Cold War, when I would meet these dissidents who 124 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: are now serving in government or leaders of journalism or 125 00:07:57,160 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: civil society organizations. They knew what it felt like through 126 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: a different lens, which is to be a victim, to 127 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: keep your head down, to feel like you're always on 128 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: guard and you don't really belong. And it was just 129 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: really an eye opener for me about how this manifests 130 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,400 Speaker 1: itself on a human experience and not just defined by 131 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: the country we grew up in. For someone who's never 132 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: heard of beyond conflict, what is it? So it's an 133 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: organization that started in nineteen ninety one when I had 134 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: a chance to go to Central East in Europe at 135 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:28,400 Speaker 1: the end of the Cold War and had a chance 136 00:08:28,440 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: to meet, as I mentioned earlier, as some of these 137 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: dissidents who are now running these post communist countries, and 138 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,680 Speaker 1: I remember asking them, how do you deal with your past? 139 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 1: How are you dealing with the legacy of repression or 140 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: a dictatorship, what it did to individuals and communities. And 141 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,719 Speaker 1: the response was, well, that's what we talk about amongst ourselves. 142 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,840 Speaker 1: But that's not the help we're getting right now, because 143 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: at the end of the Cold War we were getting 144 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:57,199 Speaker 1: help to write constitutions, build new democratic institutions, design market economies. 145 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: Nobody can understand what we've gone through. We're being asked 146 00:09:00,760 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 1: to manage these new governments and transitions, and we don't 147 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: know where to get this help. And so that led 148 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: me to this simple, what I thought, one off conference notion, 149 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: or bring together these new leaders of these postcommunist countries, 150 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: but with people who themselves had been through a transition 151 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: from dictatorship to democracy. And in nineteen ninety one the 152 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: examples were Argentina, Chile, there was a process in a 153 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,680 Speaker 1: couple of African countries, Spain after Franco denocification in Germany, 154 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: and so I had said to some folks, you guys 155 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: should do a special session bringing these new leaders of 156 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: these postcommunist countries. But do it not with self described experts, 157 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 1: but people from these other countries that struggled with these transitions, 158 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: who never imagined that they could have come out the 159 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: other side, almost like a big support group. And so 160 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 1: what started as a one off conference became a second 161 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 1: and third. But there was a real growing interest and 162 00:09:54,040 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: how do we learn from the experience of others, how 163 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: do we deal with our past? And of course at 164 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 1: the end of the Cold War you normally had what 165 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: happened in Eastern Europe, but at the beginning of the 166 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 1: peace process in Northern Ireland, or the Central American Peace Accords, 167 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 1: or the beginning of a negotiated transition in South Africa. 168 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:14,359 Speaker 1: And then on the flip side you had the disintegration 169 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: of Yugoslavia and so forth. And so this whole period 170 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: became ripe for work not only about how do you 171 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 1: build democracy, but how do you deal with these countries 172 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: that are coming out of brutal past. And so for 173 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,680 Speaker 1: these thirty years we have worked in probably seventy five 174 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 1: countries with this notion of she had experience, meaning bringing 175 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: in people to model as former enemies what change could 176 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: look like. Do you remember the moment you became interested 177 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: in conflict resolution? Well, I think actually in late eighties, 178 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven, I was watching the Super Bowl at 179 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: the home of a woman who's sort of well known, 180 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 1: Doris Kurrn's Goodwin and her husband Richard Goodwin at the 181 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 1: time KG. Yeah, And I knew her had a husband 182 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: through some work in a political campaign. And there was 183 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,640 Speaker 1: Bob Dole, Senate majority leader, and he had flown to 184 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: Managua Reagan was president to criticize in ridicule the Sundinista government, 185 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 1: and then got back on his plane and flew home 186 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: and I remember seeing this in between the Super Bowl 187 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 1: sort of innings, and I remember thinking, what just happened here? 188 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: Why did he not go and actually see the leaders? 189 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: Who was he playing to what's actually going on in 190 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: the region. And Dick Goodwin had been the author of 191 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: the Alliance for Progress as a speech for JFK, and 192 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: so he had a deep tie to the region. And 193 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: I remember just speaking to the two of them and saying, 194 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: this is pretty incredible that you have one of the 195 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: biggest issues on the foreign policy agenda of the United 196 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: States and people are just sort of playing politics for 197 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,679 Speaker 1: domestic purposes here in the United States. Can we understand 198 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: this better? And so I ended up organizing a trip 199 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: to Central America with Doris Goodwin and others to see 200 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: firsthand what was going on. And then I ended up 201 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: meeting the Sundinista leadership at the time of Nicaragua and 202 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: at the Contras in Costa Rica, the f Mellen Gorillas 203 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: of El solvad Or meeting in Nicaragua because it was safe, 204 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: and then people from the other side and other settings, 205 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: and it was just mind blowing and it was a 206 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: huge eye opener to not only the region but the 207 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: nature of conflict and the fact that people can learn 208 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: from each other as sort of kumbayas that sounds, but 209 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:23,319 Speaker 1: that was early at the core you set up this 210 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 1: mentor program, this support route of people who've been through 211 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,320 Speaker 1: something like this before, for those who were new to 212 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: the process. Democracy sponsors, if you will. Where did that 213 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: support group idea come from? Where people seated in a 214 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,760 Speaker 1: circle holding candles? No, but you know, I think that's 215 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: the nature. You're a very creative individual human being, right, 216 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: Creativity just sort of emerges, right, and in this context, 217 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 1: it just struck me that sitting in these rooms, whether 218 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 1: it be a workshop, a conference, or sitting around a 219 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: dinner table with people who are struggling with even the 220 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,559 Speaker 1: nose sitting across the table from their enemy and having 221 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 1: from South Africa. Sarah Romoposa who's now president, or Rolf 222 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: Mayer who was the chief negotiator for the Clerk come 223 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 1: into a group of Protestant former paramilitary leaders in Belfast 224 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: and say, you know, we're here now as friends. We 225 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:23,079 Speaker 1: just negotiated about a year ago the end of APARTEID 226 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 1: in South Africa, and we want to ask you what 227 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: is making it so difficult for you to imagine change here, 228 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: and you would hear these people across the divide in 229 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: Northern Ireland saying, if they could do it in South Africa, 230 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: why can't we do it here? You know, if they 231 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: could make peace with their enemy, then why is it 232 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: we're struggling to even imagine sitting in the same room 233 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,839 Speaker 1: with these people. I've read too many newspapers over time, 234 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: so I kind of know a lot of these names 235 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: you've dropped, But could you explain for someone who may 236 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 1: not have heard of it what was going on in 237 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: Northern Ireland. So the Northern Ireland conflict lasted about thirty years, 238 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: starting in the late six literally thirty years until nineteen 239 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 1: ninety eight, and over thirty five hundred people were killed, 240 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:08,960 Speaker 1: many of the meicent civilians, and the equivalent in this 241 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,640 Speaker 1: country would be a million civilians being killed in the 242 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 1: United States. And if you were a Catholic, you viewed 243 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: the conflict as a legacy of centuries of repression by 244 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: the British government in one form or another. If you 245 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: were Protestant, many of them thought of this conflict as 246 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: a thirty year aggravated crime wife. And so you had 247 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: really diametrically opposed views of what the nature of the 248 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: conflict was middle class, affluent Catholics tended to join if 249 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: they joined a political party, the Social Democratic Labor Party 250 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: led by John Hume. They wanted eventual unification with Ireland, 251 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: but we're willing to do it politically and not through 252 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 1: armed conflict or resistance. But often more working class Catholics 253 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: who lived in many of the poorer communities were known 254 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: as Irish Republicans and they tended to support in Fain, 255 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: and many of them joined and supported the Irish Republican 256 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:08,479 Speaker 1: Army and felt it was a legitimate resistance to colonial repression. 257 00:15:09,160 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 1: And their view was we couldn't wait for unification. It 258 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: has to happen now and if we have to use 259 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: armed resistance to get it, we will. And then on 260 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: the other side, you know, you had two mainstream Unionists 261 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: or Protestant political parties, the Democratic Ulster Unionist Party and 262 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,880 Speaker 1: the UUP Ulster Unionist Party. One was sort of more 263 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: middle class, which is the UUP DUP was led by 264 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: Ian Paisley, and they wanted to preserve their British identity. 265 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,480 Speaker 1: Protestants were British and they were going to defend it. 266 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: And the working class equivalent of shin Fin and the 267 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: IRA where the Loyalless paramilitary parties and their two armed wings, 268 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: and they ended up killing more people than the IRA did. 269 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: And I mentioned a friend of mine, David Irvine, who 270 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: was a Loyalless paramilitary leader, and I remember taking them 271 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: to know only the Balkans, but to Columbia to meet 272 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: with the el n in the Farc and others over 273 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 1: the years. And he really connected with him because even 274 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: though he was white Protestant from Northern Ireland, he was 275 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: a working class socialist as you would say. But somebody 276 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: who said that we took up arms to defend a 277 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: community that we thought was under threat. But he said, 278 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: we went from defending our community in other words, feeling 279 00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: that we had to kill to live, than to living 280 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: to kill. And he said something about a conflict like 281 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: that takes over our psyche and our community and the 282 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: narratives that you wake up a decade later and saying 283 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: you know, we're living to kill. This is what we know. 284 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: And so where it ended up is the Good Friday 285 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 1: Agreement brought them together, but it didn't get to that 286 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: point of resolving these underlying differences. Wow, thank you for that, Tim. 287 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: Most of us. We really didn't know the details of 288 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: that conflict, and I think, as Wikipedia to Tim, you 289 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 1: did a good job of breaking that down. I want 290 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: to know when you bring these leaders together, where their 291 00:17:04,280 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: trust falls to him. What's the vibe of those gatherings. 292 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: If it's the first gathering, it's often very tense. I'll 293 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: give an example. After the signing of the day In 294 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 1: Peace Accords, I was asked by Richard Holbrook if I 295 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: could bring together in London the leaders of the three 296 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,919 Speaker 1: communities in Bosnia, Serb, Proat and Muslim. I mean, the 297 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: Dayton Peace Accords forced a sort of peace agreement, but 298 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 1: in many ways those communities were not done fighting each other, 299 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: and there was such profound anger, and so we ended 300 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: up having this gathering in London, and in the beginning 301 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,760 Speaker 1: we had the three communities come in and the last 302 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 1: ones to take the seat with the leaders of Bosnia. 303 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: They called themselves Republic of Serupska. They were kind of 304 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: a proto fascist state, frankly, and the Bosnian Muslim leaders 305 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,880 Speaker 1: saw them and walked out and said, we can't sit 306 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 1: in the same room with these war criminals. And the 307 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 1: people who got up and went to the Bosnia Muslims 308 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: and said please come back in where the Palestinian and 309 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:06,439 Speaker 1: Israeli leaders who were in the room, who were women, 310 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: a South African leader and somebody from Belfast, because they 311 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: immediately understood how difficult this was, and they went on 312 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: their own out into the lobby and spoke with them 313 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: for about forty five minutes and essentially, you know, we're allies. 314 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: They said, please come in and sit in this room. 315 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 1: We know how difficult this is. And in moments like that, 316 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 1: you know, it's really difficult to imagine sitting in the 317 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: same room with people who were involved at the cleansing 318 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: or involved in killing and then in that sort of 319 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: support group approach. When they're sitting there, at first they're like, 320 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,359 Speaker 1: how do these people from Northern Ireland are Bosnia or 321 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: El Salvad or connect with my experience? And then when 322 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: you hear there are stories and what they went through, 323 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 1: then the differences start to fade away and people start 324 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,159 Speaker 1: to listen. And there was one moment when a man 325 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 1: named David irv who unfortunately has passed away, who was 326 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: a Protestant paramilitary leader who spent a decade in prison 327 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: for terrorism, was sitting there with these Kosovo leaders at 328 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: a different conference, and they were shouting and yelling and saying, 329 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: how do we learn from you? What do you have 330 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 1: to share to our experience? And one person yelled out, 331 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 1: we had artillery reigning on Sarajevo or reigning on Mostar. 332 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: You didn't have any of that. And David looked over 333 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 1: at a former IRA commander and was the first time 334 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: the two of them had met, and they said, if 335 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: we had access to artillery, trust us, we would have 336 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: used them on each other. We used everything we could 337 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: to destroy the other side. And you could see that 338 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: the boson coos of our leaders stop and begin to listen. 339 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: And then somebody said, but aren't you were a terrorist? 340 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: And David said, you know, terrorists have to come from somewhere, 341 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: and injustice is a powerful place to come from. And 342 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: what would happen it is you could see people start 343 00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: to pull back and listen and realize they're not here 344 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: giving a history example. They're speaking and profoundly human terms 345 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: in ways that resonate with their own experience and challenge. 346 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: Just gave me chills with that one you've mentioned, and 347 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: been a part of a lot of different gatherings of 348 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,480 Speaker 1: people who've been on opposite sides of issues. El Salvador, 349 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: Northern Ireland, South Africa, the Bosnia of region. What outcome 350 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 1: has surprised you the most in all of this experience? 351 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 1: Is there one that stands out? One of my great 352 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,600 Speaker 1: honors of life is having met Nelson Mandelar in nineteen 353 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: ninety two, and he actually served on our advisory board 354 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: and I had a chance to meet him in New 355 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: York and I went up to him in our brief 356 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: sort of encounter, and I asked him, as you negotiate 357 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: the future of your country, are you thinking about how 358 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: are you going to deal with your past? And he 359 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,600 Speaker 1: looked at me in these said, that's exactly an issue 360 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: that I've been thinking about. We've been thinking about, and 361 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: he called over his aid, a woman named Barbara Masskella 362 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 1: at the time, and I had, you know, I had 363 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,879 Speaker 1: this sort of I guess presumption of writing a memo 364 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: and I gave it to his assistant and it laid 365 00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: out the question of as South Africa's negotiating this big transition, 366 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: what are the models to look at? And so of 367 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: course it was Argentina, Chile. What happened in Europe at 368 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: the end of World War Two. But what struck me 369 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: was Mandela came back to me at the end of 370 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: that reception and there are all these great and the 371 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:36,800 Speaker 1: good and here was this young guy who got invited 372 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,720 Speaker 1: through a friend and he come up to me. He said, 373 00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to follow up with you on this because 374 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: this is really important. And he did. And over the years, 375 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: I was able to bring people from Northern Ireland, the Balkans, 376 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 1: the Middle East, to South Africa when he was president 377 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: and after, and he would sit there and he would 378 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: say to them things like be tough on structures, be 379 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,120 Speaker 1: tough on institutions, but don't be huff on each other. 380 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: And had a power coming from Mandela. And we tend 381 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: to forget or think because Mandela became such this iconic 382 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: figure that what he did is used his political and 383 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: moral authority to essent create a pathway for the other 384 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: side to cross and said, okay, it is up to 385 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 1: you to cross this bridge. And I've seen less famous 386 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,040 Speaker 1: individuals do it in other countries. John Hume in Northern 387 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,320 Speaker 1: Ireland did the same thing with the IRA, meeting with 388 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: them secretly in the eighties and when his own party 389 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: members found out, they wanted to expel him, and he 390 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: had the same view. When you describe this scene or 391 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 1: describe his intervention and counsel to others in conflict, how 392 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: do you feel in that moment when you witness that. 393 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: What's going through you emotionally? What's going through at the time, 394 00:22:55,880 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: me as an American who wasn't from those countries? Is 395 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: it landing? Is it making the impact? Because you know, 396 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: it's difficult for people to change, particularly when the change 397 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 1: you're going through as an individual, maybe as a leader, 398 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: isn't reflected in the community you're from. They're not meeting 399 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: the enemy face to face, and they're in that community 400 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: that reinforces legitimate grievance and anger and strategy. But there's 401 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 1: something that happens on that human level when you recognize 402 00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: your enemy as human. And so to your question, I 403 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: wish Mandela was alive today. I wish a number of 404 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 1: these leaders who are still alive I can get on 405 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 1: a plane and go and see them, to bring this 406 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: home to this country, because now, as an American caught 407 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,119 Speaker 1: up in this moment, I'm seeing it through a different lens. 408 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 1: I'm seeing it through a lens of like this shit 409 00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: is difficult, you know, I had the privilege and not 410 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: appreciating it, of pushing people to sit across the table 411 00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: from their enemy, to make peace with her enemy, literally 412 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: telling families in Bosnia and Trebenitza after that they should 413 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 1: move back into those villages and to those homes that 414 00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 1: have been rebuilt next to families that try to kill them. 415 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:16,920 Speaker 1: And I felt like I was doing the right thing, 416 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: and I was, but here at this moment, this country, 417 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: it'll last few years. I'm thinking this work is difficult. 418 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: I was at a safe emotional distance from that and 419 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: the other thing you asked me about trust. I remember 420 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: we brought leaders from Bahrain to Belfast a few years 421 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,560 Speaker 1: ago after the Arab Spring, and they were talking to 422 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: people separately from Protestant Shenfain other political parties, and they 423 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: would ask do you need trust to negotiate? And independently 424 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: they will say no, if you had trust, why would 425 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: you be negotiating like this. But what they say you 426 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: need to build sort of a support network underneath. Recognize 427 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: that you if you had trust, you wouldn't be in 428 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:01,280 Speaker 1: this moment. Yeah, yeah, you know, this conversation about trust 429 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 1: makes me think about this concept I've heard you talk 430 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 1: about the zone of discomfort? Can you explain what a 431 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 1: zone of discomfort is and how do you get people 432 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,120 Speaker 1: through it? So one of my mentors, as a friend 433 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: of mine, Josimitia at Gaeta from Guatemala, and a number 434 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: of years ago he said to me, you know, it's 435 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: difficult to move people from A to Z at one moment. 436 00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: You need to move them from sort of A to 437 00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 1: D and then D to G. And this is without 438 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: knowing the science or research. Just empirically, it's very insightful 439 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: because he worked and how do you bridge divides in Guatemala? 440 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 1: How do you build trust where there was no history 441 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: of trust? And what he just observed over three decades 442 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: was that where people didn't know each other, where they 443 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: fail the other side, you would have to bring them 444 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: together where they could begin to see the other, understand 445 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 1: the other, and predict the other's behavior. And then you 446 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: have to take them through some very difficult realities that 447 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: they may not accept. And he said, that's a zone 448 00:25:57,240 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: of discomfort. And then you give him a landing pad 449 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: as you would put it in that A to D, 450 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: let them process at that and then you take them 451 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: to the next level of change. So in the US, 452 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 1: can you paint a picture of one of our zones 453 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: of discomfort from one of our communities that needs to 454 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 1: get from A to Z, but an aid to d 455 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,880 Speaker 1: leap is a more appropriate path to get there. Yeah. 456 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: So after the election in November, you know, we have 457 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: this team work and on polarization in American social divides. 458 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 1: When seventy four million people voted for Donald Trump, ten 459 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:34,320 Speaker 1: million more than last time, a lot of people are 460 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: here just wanted to not erase these people, but feel like, 461 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: how do you talk with them? How do you cross 462 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: that divide or bridge that when they had no excuse 463 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: in voting for this man four years later? Right? And 464 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: I remember as we looked into it, we recognized that 465 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: there was a lot of fear in this recent election 466 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: on both sides. And one thing, there's a lot of 467 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: research on what they call status threat and so for 468 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: a lot of people who, let's say supported Donald Trump, 469 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: there's fear of the changing cultural demographic terrain of the 470 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,399 Speaker 1: United States. And that is rooted in human psychology because 471 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: you can see that in Northern Ireland among Protestants as 472 00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: a demographic changes, or in the Middle East between Israelis 473 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: and Palestinians, or in South Africa when apartheid was ending 474 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: at the route that human predictive brain is trying to 475 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 1: navigate its environment. And when things are changing in a 476 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: profound way and leaders don't come along to help them 477 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: navigate that, to change and update that mental model that 478 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: gets set up becomes very difficult for people. What often 479 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: happens is populist demagogues come along and turn legitimate fear 480 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: into grievance, then gets weaponized into something else. And so 481 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,199 Speaker 1: when I look at this country, the reality is, and 482 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 1: there's research in this White Christian evangelicals think of themselves 483 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,840 Speaker 1: as a persecuted, prosecuted community in this country, and it's 484 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: very difficult for people outside that community, particularly on the left, 485 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: to accept that. So what it means, I think for 486 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,960 Speaker 1: the left is to recognize, you know what, these are legitimate, psychological, 487 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: almost biological states of mind. And you know, and on 488 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: the right, I've seen people respond when we talk about 489 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,360 Speaker 1: status threat and they feel, well, that's collective blame. You're 490 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: essentializing us, you're thinking we all feel that way. And 491 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 1: so there are all these sort of landmines right now 492 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: in the United States because we're so divided and because 493 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: Donald Trump was such a personality type and was so 494 00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: outrageous on so many levels. It put more oxygen and 495 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: fuel into that space. And so any notion of reaching 496 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: across these divides is seen as compromise, is seen as 497 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: selling out. And yet what experience in other countries have shown, 498 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: and not just the Mandelas and many others, is you know, 499 00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: we have to find a way to bridge. This doesn't 500 00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: mean compromise. It doesn't mean it's unity for the sake 501 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: of you know, everybody get along. It's about clarity. It's 502 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: about being clear about what's going on, being clear at 503 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: this moment, being clear of how we got to this 504 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: moment as a country, but also where we want to 505 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,360 Speaker 1: go together in this country. One of the frustrations I've 506 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: had in talking about bridging divides and outreach and empathy 507 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: and understanding someone else's journey is I have perceived I'm 508 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: using my words so carefully, tim but I have perceived 509 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: that the folks who I'm associated with on the left 510 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,640 Speaker 1: have been doing a lot of that, trying to do 511 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: a lot. Let's go talk to a Trump voter, Let's 512 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: get inside their head, let's get inside of their psychology, 513 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: Let's super humanize them and I wonder if you can 514 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: take me through a zone of discomfort exercise. Maybe it's 515 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: shorter that looks at things from a different perspective, because 516 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 1: I've also heard and felt a lot of anger around 517 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter it's a terrorist group. Is there a 518 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:08,000 Speaker 1: zona discomfort example that will help me and others understand 519 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: this phenomena around the divide over Black Lives Matter in 520 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:18,240 Speaker 1: the US. Is there an easier question? You know? Here's 521 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: the thing. Somebody asked me sort of a similar question 522 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: the last month or so after what happened at the 523 00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: US capital, and I said, we really have to be 524 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: as precise as we can with words and what we're saying. 525 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: And what's really interesting in the world of sort of 526 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: conflict resolution, there's a distinction that I and others make 527 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: between conflict resolution and conflict transformation. To resolve a conflict, 528 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: think of the Day and Peace Accords in Bosnia, or 529 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 1: the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland, or the one 530 00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: that ended the Salvadoran Civil War. That's about a brutal 531 00:30:54,720 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: civil war, people dying, people being killed, people disappearing. We 532 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: need to end this. It's triage, and the way you 533 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,640 Speaker 1: achieve that is getting people across the table to in 534 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: a sense, have unity for that moment of change, but 535 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: it doesn't fully transform the underlying dynamics of the society. 536 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: So that conflict resolution is about unity for the sake 537 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: of that agreement. But conflict transformation requires clarity. How did 538 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 1: we get here at this moment and where do we 539 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: go together? Because if we're going somewhere in the future 540 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: where it's going to be a democracy, a more representative democracy, 541 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 1: a more inclusive democracy, a more shared democracy, we need 542 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,520 Speaker 1: to understand how we got to this moment as a nation, 543 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 1: in a community, and in that clarity, you need to 544 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: create a space for people to come together to feel 545 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 1: like they're being heard. And it's very difficult. Take South 546 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: Africa where ninety percent of the population was Black, Malaysian, 547 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: other community. I mean, that was a brutal regime. But 548 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: what was interesting that the African National Congress leadership, even 549 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: before Mandela got out of prison, people like Albi Sachs 550 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: and others would say that we came to realize that 551 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: we had to understand where the African of people were 552 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: coming from historically, like how did they set up a 553 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: system of apartheid, what experience did they go through to 554 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: justify setting up something like this. What were they afraid of? 555 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: This dynamic they created and they came to realize. They 556 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: said that they suffered at the cleansing and genocide in 557 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: the Boer War under the British and they had no 558 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 1: country to go back to, unlike white South Africans of 559 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 1: a British background literally had a passport in the back pocket. 560 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: So the Afrikaans had no country to go to. So 561 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,480 Speaker 1: they're going to fight to the very end. And the 562 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,280 Speaker 1: point is is that the A and C leadership in 563 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: a sense went through his own to discomfort, saying, we 564 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: are absolutely clear that this is about liberation and resistance, 565 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,160 Speaker 1: that this is a brutal dictatorship that's been dehumanizing. But 566 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: what does the future look like? Are we going to 567 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,680 Speaker 1: share this place? Are they going to flee? Well, these 568 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: people have nowhere to go to, so they're going to stay, 569 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,280 Speaker 1: which means we have to figure out together how we're 570 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 1: going to live in this country and share it. And 571 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 1: it may not be Kumbaya, everybody come together, No, it's 572 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: literally uncomfortable. It is we have to share this country together, 573 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: and so a shared future has to be built on 574 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: a shared understanding of how we got here. And that's 575 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 1: about clarity, and that clarity requires discomfort. It requires a 576 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: discomfort like you know what I may want. And from 577 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: the other side, Mandela, I mean, I'm believed that the 578 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 1: reason why Nelson Mandela and Winnie Mandela got divorced within 579 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: a year or two is they lived in two realities 580 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: of apartheid South Africa. He was in prison for twenty 581 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: seven years and had a lot of time to reflect. 582 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: She was in the social reality of apartheid South Africa, 583 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: where day in day out she could find no moment, 584 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: no chance to really sit back and say, what is 585 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: the nature of the struggle about and where do I 586 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,799 Speaker 1: want to go with this right? And I've seen this, 587 00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 1: by the way, in other settings where leaders in prison 588 00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,759 Speaker 1: said they had to make sense of their experience to 589 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 1: figure out where we want to go from here. And 590 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: so the zone of discomfort in this country is, you know, 591 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: we have to have a reckoning, but I also think 592 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: we have to have a summoning. We have to summon 593 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: people to something else because black, white, Latino, Asian, Native American, 594 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: this is our country. It's a country where what connects 595 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: us is a common citizenship. But not a common participation 596 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: in it. I mean, this is real, legitimate. I don't 597 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: have to tell you this suffering and loss and need 598 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 1: for healing and repair humanization of Native Americans and African 599 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,279 Speaker 1: Americans and other communities for a long period of time. 600 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: And yet we also have other communities who either legitimately 601 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 1: have had real loss over time or have narratives in 602 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:18,120 Speaker 1: their communities of loss. And so I think that's the 603 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: point of clarity and the discomfort, and not I mean 604 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: just the left and the right. Americans across also have 605 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,320 Speaker 1: to sit back and say this is a defining moment, 606 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 1: this is about transformation. Otherwise we're in deep trouble. Sorry 607 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,839 Speaker 1: to be so pessimistic, but I do think that that 608 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 1: is what's required at this time. And you know, I 609 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,799 Speaker 1: think of myself is progressive and liberal. My whole life 610 00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: is on social justice. But there are moments in this 611 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: country in the last few years where I tell my friends, 612 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: you know what, you've got to give people the capacity 613 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,919 Speaker 1: to change those who don't change. You start to figure 614 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 1: out who are the people who will never change, And 615 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: now you've identified them further, then there are those who 616 00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 1: are fearful of change because change is difficult, and then 617 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: more than not most people want to change and they 618 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,800 Speaker 1: have to go through discomfort. But in recognizing that takes 619 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: a discomfort because we want that certainty about what this 620 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: process should look like. And that's why you say that 621 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: reckoning is so important, But it's also summoning at the 622 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: same time. How do we both reckon and summon Because 623 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,840 Speaker 1: reckon is dealing with a reality of the past and today, 624 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: but summing what to the future. And I think that's 625 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: that moment we're renascent nation. You've reflected a few times 626 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: on bringing your work home. You've done a lot of 627 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: work outside of the US, and it sounds to me 628 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,720 Speaker 1: like you feel a sense of urgency about what's happening 629 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:45,400 Speaker 1: in the US right now. Do you ever feel a 630 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: sense that the divisions and conflicts in the US are irreconcilable? 631 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:55,479 Speaker 1: I don't. I do it at moments. There are deep 632 00:36:55,520 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: divides and there's anger on all sides. I say all sides. 633 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: It's not just both sides. I think we have to 634 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: go through stages. You know, I was saying earlier about 635 00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: clarity and unity. I think it sounds good for some, 636 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: but unity is actually a disservice to talk about right now. 637 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 1: So one is clarity, the other is coexistence or dissent. 638 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: Recognizing and living with difference and dissent is going to 639 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: be really important because people are not going to change 640 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: quickly and overnight. There are really these and transpositions. You 641 00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: have media platforms whose economic incentive is to drive that, 642 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,239 Speaker 1: and so we have to be realistic about those. And 643 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 1: so what do we do in the interim is, I 644 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,440 Speaker 1: think find ways to live with difference and not of me, 645 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,239 Speaker 1: just cultural and demographic difference, political difference. It's okay to 646 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: be dissenting, It's okay to you know, have profound disagreement 647 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: because at the core democrat see is about managing difference. 648 00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 1: And I think that's what we have to do here, 649 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:06,719 Speaker 1: is to say it's not an irreconcirable why, because what's 650 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:12,800 Speaker 1: the alternative? It is find ways to live with difference, 651 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: to manage that, and find ways to reconnect and to 652 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: see how much we have in common, and then together 653 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:26,360 Speaker 1: figure ways to define a country that reflects the reality 654 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: of what we are and where we're going in a 655 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: positive direction. After the break, we fast forward to this 656 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,800 Speaker 1: current moment we're living through and dig deep into beyond 657 00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:40,400 Speaker 1: conflicts US based work to understand how we can apply 658 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,880 Speaker 1: the lessons they've learned abroad, plus our in studio virtual 659 00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 1: audience talks with Tim about ways we can counter conflict 660 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: and extremism in our communities. So, Tim, you and Beyond 661 00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 1: Conflicts work has historically centered on these facilitating these in 662 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: person cross party dialogues. Over time, you've then layered in 663 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: a lot more behavioral science and neuroscience to understand what 664 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: drives division in the first place. What does science and 665 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: research taught us about social conflict? What did they taught you? 666 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: You know, this year is the thirtieth the anniversary of 667 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 1: Beyond Conflict, And for the first twenty twenty five years, 668 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: we would go into countries that we're trying to imagine 669 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 1: how do you go from dictatorship to democracy or from 670 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,960 Speaker 1: conflict to peace? And so having done that for a 671 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 1: number of years, we saw some successes, but we were 672 00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: also coming up against a lot of intractable conflicts and 673 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: a lot of fragile peace agreements. And the question that 674 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,720 Speaker 1: I and my colleagues ast is what are we missing 675 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 1: about the human experience? What are we missing about the 676 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,000 Speaker 1: struggles that people go through? That Guatemala and friend of mine, 677 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: and a mentor said to me, you know, exclusion is 678 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: the main driver of conflict. And I was like, okay, 679 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: how does that play out in the human brain and 680 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: our cognition, in our emotion. Because if we understand that better, 681 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: could we actually be more effective in framing strategies, interventions 682 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,839 Speaker 1: and ways to advance real transformative change in peace. And 683 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: that's why we started looking at brain and behavioral science. 684 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 1: And I'll just maybe quickly and there by saying, Jerry 685 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:21,000 Speaker 1: Adams was one. He was president of Shenfein, which is 686 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:24,439 Speaker 1: the political party associated with the IRA. Though he won't 687 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,240 Speaker 1: admit it publicly, he was one of the top IRA leaders. 688 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 1: And I had him come to a course I was 689 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,600 Speaker 1: teaching at a university here a few years ago, and 690 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,319 Speaker 1: a student sat across the table and said, how do 691 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 1: you make peace with somebody you may have tried to 692 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: kill or they may have killed somebody very close to you? 693 00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 1: And he paused, and he said, in a very thick 694 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: Belfast accent, he said, it's tough to make peace with 695 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,280 Speaker 1: a humiliated partner. And there was a retired neuroscientist sitting 696 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: in the room who had been observing the class. Nick 697 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: up and he said, you know, I've heard Adams talk 698 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 1: about humiliation. I heard somebody from the Middle East talk 699 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: about fear and empathy and what it is to be 700 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: a victim and things that are sacred. He said, you know, 701 00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 1: there's a lot of brain science research behind that, And 702 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,000 Speaker 1: I said, what do you mean brain science because I 703 00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: knew from either social psychology, what I observed, what I 704 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 1: experienced growing up, and I thought, tell me more. And 705 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,880 Speaker 1: the key thing he said that got me on this path, 706 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: he said, well he was intosemities at this point. He said, 707 00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,400 Speaker 1: speaking as a scientist, we are not rational beings with emotions. 708 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 1: In fact, we're just the opposite. We're emotionally based beings 709 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:33,440 Speaker 1: who can only think rationally when we feel that our 710 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,399 Speaker 1: identities as we see them, not you or other as 711 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,760 Speaker 1: we see them, are understood and valued by others. Once 712 00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: we feel understood, he said, there's a deep psychological, almost 713 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,040 Speaker 1: biological necessity to feel understood. Then literally we can begin 714 00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,920 Speaker 1: to engage rationally with others. And that's what put me 715 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,879 Speaker 1: on the journey to look at this. Yeah, that's powerful, man, 716 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:58,000 Speaker 1: It's just this like a prerequisite. You know, there's an 717 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:03,399 Speaker 1: emotional safety, emotional acknowledgement. Psychological acknowledgement prerequisite before you can 718 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: enter some of these higher levels. So in terms of 719 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: were you able to look back at some of your 720 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 1: previous interventions that maybe didn't stick you talk about these 721 00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,279 Speaker 1: kind of fragile peace agreements, was that, in hindsight a 722 00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 1: clearly missing element the emotional side, the neurological side. You know, 723 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: it was clear that these emotions were playing an outsize 724 00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:30,800 Speaker 1: role in making peace and reconciliation possible, like intractable conflict. 725 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 1: In the last negotiations with the PLO underrs R Fat, 726 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: when Bill Clinton and Madeline Albright were trying to negotiate 727 00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:42,080 Speaker 1: the Camp David Accords, it collapsed at the last minute, 728 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,520 Speaker 1: and the two most difficult issues were the writer of 729 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: Palestinian refugees to return and the future of Jerusalem as 730 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,439 Speaker 1: a sacred city for Jews, Muslims, and Christians. And years 731 00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: later I found that there's research coming out of brain 732 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,800 Speaker 1: and behavioral science that those things that we hold sacred 733 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: choice and not mean just religious terms, but things that 734 00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,320 Speaker 1: have a profound, almost sacred importance to us a process 735 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 1: in a different region of the brain than utilitarian decisions 736 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:13,879 Speaker 1: we make. And there's even neuroimaging that is confirmed that 737 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 1: this gets processed differently and is in a sense more 738 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: entrenched cognitively in the brain when people are still being 739 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,400 Speaker 1: forced to compromise things that are above compromise, And the 740 00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:28,280 Speaker 1: research found is a simple but powerful gesture of symbolic concession. 741 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 1: I understand how a sacred this is to you, I 742 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: understand how important this is to you. Actually creates a 743 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,799 Speaker 1: cognitive shift where people feel like, now I'm being understood. 744 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 1: And it goes back to what the scientists said a 745 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,439 Speaker 1: few years earlier about Jerry Adams comment, we have a 746 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: deep need to feel understood if we're able to navigate 747 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 1: the world and connect with others. That is profound. And 748 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 1: you've anticipated where I might have gone with that, which 749 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,360 Speaker 1: is does that mean you then need to fully concede 750 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 1: to their perspective or that sacred, deeply held belief if 751 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,480 Speaker 1: that's an athema to your own. But you use the 752 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: phrase symbolic concession that we need to feel understood, even 753 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: if we're not completely fully understood. That kind of opens 754 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:11,799 Speaker 1: the doorway and I interpreting, Yeah, I mean, that's why 755 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 1: understanding science is not to make it more complex, but 756 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 1: to decomplexify it in a sense if there's such a phrase, 757 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 1: And that is what we all know without understanding all 758 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,520 Speaker 1: the structures of the brain, is we need to feel understood. 759 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 1: We relax, our stress levels go down. And by the way, 760 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:32,319 Speaker 1: there's research that affirms that, and we can begin to 761 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 1: think about hearing others. But it doesn't mean, to your 762 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 1: point that I have to accept and endorse your point 763 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 1: of view. It just means I understand what this means 764 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,719 Speaker 1: for you. And Bill Clinton, I had reached out to 765 00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:48,440 Speaker 1: him but a year ago for this work we were 766 00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: doing on status threaten and identity threat United States. I said, 767 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 1: it's become really existential threat in this country right now. 768 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:58,879 Speaker 1: How do we navigate this when fear of change, demographic, 769 00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 1: economic has been weaponized and let's be honest, particularly by 770 00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 1: the right, for decades. Now, how do we deal with this? 771 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:07,760 Speaker 1: And he said that when he was running for governor 772 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,440 Speaker 1: of Arkansas in the early eighties, he would always ask himself, 773 00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 1: how do I get on the right side of fear? 774 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,359 Speaker 1: How do I acknowledge it? How do I have people 775 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,959 Speaker 1: feel like, oh, somebody's understanding me without validating it. It's 776 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: like I hear you now let's move in this direction. Yeah, 777 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:26,680 Speaker 1: and that's what we need to do. Understand doesn't necessarily 778 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:30,319 Speaker 1: mean agree with Bingo, which is a relief now I 779 00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:32,959 Speaker 1: know you and Beyond Conflict have been doing deeper work 780 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:37,880 Speaker 1: recently looking at how Democrats and Republicans, for example, misperceive 781 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:41,359 Speaker 1: one another and their viewpoints. Can you walk me through 782 00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:46,000 Speaker 1: those studies and what you're finding there? Sure? So leaders 783 00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 1: from other countries that I had worked with, from South 784 00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,440 Speaker 1: Africa or Central America, the Middle East, Northern Ireland, they 785 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,439 Speaker 1: had been telling me for fully a decade beforehand, Oh, 786 00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,920 Speaker 1: you need to work in your own country. They like 787 00:45:57,040 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: canaries in a coal mine, could sense were things were going, 788 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:02,040 Speaker 1: and they would know, you know, they've been through it, 789 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,320 Speaker 1: and they would know, you know, they know how to 790 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:08,239 Speaker 1: navigate these environments, and they pick it up in the ether, like, oh, 791 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,880 Speaker 1: that language is really unhealthy. There are real problems emerging 792 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 1: back home. And they were picking it up when Barack 793 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:18,120 Speaker 1: Obama became president in two thousand and eight. And so 794 00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:21,680 Speaker 1: what we did was we now had this relationship with 795 00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,319 Speaker 1: researchers at the University of Pennsylvania and other schools, and 796 00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,280 Speaker 1: we said, Okay, with some funding, let's understand how polarization 797 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,440 Speaker 1: is being shaped at this moment and what can we 798 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 1: do about it. And so that report you mentioned, we 799 00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,040 Speaker 1: called America's Divide in Mind, done by my colleague and 800 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,080 Speaker 1: Mel Bruneau, who you met a few years ago, who 801 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:43,799 Speaker 1: unfortunately passed away from cancer and he's deeply missed. We 802 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:47,680 Speaker 1: looked at how polarization is being shaped psychologically and what 803 00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 1: we found it was becoming more identity based. When that happens, 804 00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:55,279 Speaker 1: a whole range of unconscious psychological processes come online that 805 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,520 Speaker 1: only serve to drive us further apart. And when you 806 00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:01,360 Speaker 1: say identity based as opposed to idea based, right, So 807 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,360 Speaker 1: you and I could have a strong disagreement about a policy, 808 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,359 Speaker 1: or we could have a strong disagreement about each other's 809 00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:11,960 Speaker 1: value or validity or humanity. Is that the distinction? Yeah, 810 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,799 Speaker 1: I mean in the nineteen fifties, I had to dig 811 00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:16,400 Speaker 1: up and reading over the last few years a lot 812 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,560 Speaker 1: of political science about polarization, and political scientists in the 813 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,080 Speaker 1: United States said that the United States was not polarized 814 00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,880 Speaker 1: enough because the Republican and Democratic parties were bigger tents 815 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 1: and there were fewer choices for Americans of different political interests. 816 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: Or persuasions to vote, unlike the UK or other countries 817 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: that had broader political structures and therefore with more polarization, 818 00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:46,000 Speaker 1: like a local election as a polarization process. Right, because 819 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,080 Speaker 1: you're people from different science competing. That's natural and healthy. 820 00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,800 Speaker 1: But when it becomes the way it's become in this country, 821 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,960 Speaker 1: where all these other distinctions class, race, culture, geography get 822 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:03,120 Speaker 1: aligned under Democratic or Reublican. More white Christian evangelicals are 823 00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:07,760 Speaker 1: under the Republican, more people of color, professionals, educated, urban 824 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,360 Speaker 1: or under Democrats. I mean, you can see a whole 825 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,680 Speaker 1: series of how these new alignments have happened. Yeah, then 826 00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: it takes on an identity piece, and it goes from 827 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: where citizens quote unquote of a nation maybe with profound 828 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,800 Speaker 1: disagreements and we don't really feel this democracy maybe fully 829 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,799 Speaker 1: works for all of us, but when it becomes an 830 00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: us versus them, then you are profound threat to my 831 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:34,279 Speaker 1: community and identity. The good news is that we did 832 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:38,759 Speaker 1: these surveys nationally and we would ask representative democrats a Republicans, So, 833 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,439 Speaker 1: a Democrat, where are you on immigration and open borders? Well, 834 00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,880 Speaker 1: we need immigration reform, but we need a process that 835 00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,279 Speaker 1: works and allows people in but a lot of Democrats 836 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:52,000 Speaker 1: were in the middle. Republicans we need stronger restrictions, but 837 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 1: a lot we're in the middle. But if it has 838 00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:57,560 Speaker 1: a Democrat, where do you think the Republicans are? On immigration? 839 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,400 Speaker 1: They want the borders completely closed. Republican what do you 840 00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:04,359 Speaker 1: think the Democrats are? They want them completely open? Right, 841 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,480 Speaker 1: So on big issue of the big issue, and on 842 00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,560 Speaker 1: how much you think the other side dislikes you, and 843 00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:13,560 Speaker 1: even more concerning the humanizes you, it's up near fifty percent. 844 00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:16,080 Speaker 1: So we sat back and said, wait a minute. A 845 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:18,400 Speaker 1: huge chunk of the country, probably close to fifty percent, 846 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,520 Speaker 1: are overestimating by fifty percent how far apart they are. 847 00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:26,680 Speaker 1: And all that does is further drive this tribal polarisition. 848 00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:29,160 Speaker 1: And perception is reality. So if I believe that, I'm 849 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:31,319 Speaker 1: going to behave based on that. So what happens when 850 00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,960 Speaker 1: you tell people, actually, you're not as far apart as 851 00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,719 Speaker 1: you thought. What comes of that? So we actually in 852 00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,359 Speaker 1: the last year and a half, we hired a filmmaker. 853 00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:44,720 Speaker 1: I said, let's create a short video, take the research 854 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:49,480 Speaker 1: on these misperceptions, and get representative Trump and Biden supporters 855 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,360 Speaker 1: ask them the same question and capturing your response. It 856 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,439 Speaker 1: was like a holies moment, like you're kidding, but where 857 00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,680 Speaker 1: am I getting at my information? Or what about this? 858 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:02,919 Speaker 1: What about that? That video? We then tested and then 859 00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,600 Speaker 1: Stanford tested and a big Strengthening Democracy Challenge a few 860 00:50:06,600 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 1: months ago with thirty two thousand people out of two 861 00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:12,360 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty interventions. It was rated number one for 862 00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,800 Speaker 1: reducing support for political violence in the United States and 863 00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:21,640 Speaker 1: partisan animosity because it corrected these misperceptions and Americans do 864 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:25,719 Speaker 1: not get information that says, you know what, Yes, we 865 00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:29,279 Speaker 1: are divided, we have some profound issues to address, but 866 00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:33,400 Speaker 1: there's much more overlap. And when people know that, and 867 00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,600 Speaker 1: I've seen this in other countries, it's what makes peace 868 00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,600 Speaker 1: possible and deeply divided places that you have allies that 869 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:42,080 Speaker 1: you may have never imagined. How much did the propensity 870 00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 1: toward political violence decrease? How did you measure that? We 871 00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,520 Speaker 1: followed up I think it was every quarter and asking 872 00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:53,480 Speaker 1: certain questions to see does this change your view about 873 00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:58,160 Speaker 1: the use of political violence? A warmth thermometer in terms 874 00:50:58,200 --> 00:51:00,960 Speaker 1: of how warm you feel, do you feel like a 875 00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,160 Speaker 1: greater sense of being understood and so forth and so on, 876 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,240 Speaker 1: And what we found is that all of these measures 877 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:11,320 Speaker 1: improved because people sat back and said, you're not asking 878 00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:15,040 Speaker 1: me to compromise. You're not giving me a symbolic concession. 879 00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,880 Speaker 1: You're not saying that I could potentially betray my tribe 880 00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:21,880 Speaker 1: by saying, well, I have something in calm with you, 881 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,600 Speaker 1: because there are all these cognitive not just explicit, but 882 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:29,160 Speaker 1: implicit forces that are telling us don't do this. But 883 00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,920 Speaker 1: this is simple, it's neutral. It's saying, wait a minute, 884 00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,920 Speaker 1: you have more in common than you ever imagined. And 885 00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:38,759 Speaker 1: think of that in a family situation. Yeah, if you 886 00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:43,000 Speaker 1: thought a colleague or a friend really disliked you and 887 00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:45,040 Speaker 1: then you found out No, it's just the opposite. How 888 00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:49,560 Speaker 1: does it make you feel emotionally? Relief? Relief? Yeah. Also, 889 00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:51,640 Speaker 1: I need to get my hands on that video and 890 00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,440 Speaker 1: plug it into the TikTok algorithm for everybody. No, please 891 00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,479 Speaker 1: ject the Fox News airwaves and make sure that those 892 00:51:58,560 --> 00:52:01,319 Speaker 1: viewers it's if it's the number one out of two 893 00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,959 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty interventions. We need to scale that. And 894 00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:06,840 Speaker 1: I would love to fall up with you. Not because 895 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:11,080 Speaker 1: we even did research on misperceptions around democratic norms. Yeah, 896 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:14,200 Speaker 1: now I will say that after January sixth and Donald 897 00:52:14,200 --> 00:52:18,920 Speaker 1: Trump I assumed that Republicans had decreased their support for 898 00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:23,360 Speaker 1: democratic norms and principles. Our recent research with colleagues in 899 00:52:23,440 --> 00:52:28,440 Speaker 1: Chicago found that Democrats Republicans still today equally value democratic 900 00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 1: norms and principles, but if they think the other side doesn't, 901 00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,720 Speaker 1: they're willing to violate them. And it's the same fifty 902 00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,799 Speaker 1: percent gap. So getting these out at scale is what 903 00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,480 Speaker 1: we're now looking at doing. Well, when I hear the 904 00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:44,920 Speaker 1: rhetoric of the people trying to protect the election and 905 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:48,560 Speaker 1: showing up with guns, they're verbalized rationalies, well, because the 906 00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,240 Speaker 1: Democrats are going to steal it and go so because 907 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:53,719 Speaker 1: they're going to violate the norm, that gives me an 908 00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,239 Speaker 1: excuse to violate the norm. And then Democrats see that like, 909 00:52:57,239 --> 00:52:59,360 Speaker 1: well they're violating the norms, so we got to So 910 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,240 Speaker 1: it becomes this escalation. I know that you are also 911 00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,759 Speaker 1: working on a more current intervention and process. Where do 912 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:11,279 Speaker 1: we go from here? You're calling it? Tell us about that? Sure? 913 00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: So you know, I mentioned that our sort of traditional 914 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,840 Speaker 1: historic work in other countries was bringing together former enemies 915 00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:21,279 Speaker 1: across profound divides at different levels. Yeah, but then I 916 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,360 Speaker 1: realized on a personal level, for the last five or 917 00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:26,960 Speaker 1: six years when things started to go off the rill 918 00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:29,600 Speaker 1: here in my country, our country and has a different 919 00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:33,920 Speaker 1: emotional residence. It's like, wow, my history, my identities, my narratives, 920 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,319 Speaker 1: my family members who GUY can talk to, not talk to, 921 00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:38,920 Speaker 1: and it's very different. And I realized I was at 922 00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:44,880 Speaker 1: a profound safe distance. So over the last year I 923 00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:50,000 Speaker 1: reached out to a lot of these friends and I said, 924 00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,120 Speaker 1: I need to bring you now to my country the 925 00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:54,080 Speaker 1: way we would go to these other countries. We need 926 00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:57,000 Speaker 1: to bring it to this country, and not just in Washington, 927 00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,000 Speaker 1: but across the country to meet with people across divide, 928 00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:04,880 Speaker 1: whether it be community activists, bridge builders, local elected officials, megachurches, 929 00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,480 Speaker 1: small synagogues, because there are a few Americans who have 930 00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:13,279 Speaker 1: the direct experience of navigating such a profound crisis in 931 00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:17,600 Speaker 1: their own country. And we also lack a historical memory, 932 00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:19,840 Speaker 1: you know. I talk with my partner Elizabeth about this 933 00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:23,440 Speaker 1: a fair amount. As the World War two generation, you know, 934 00:54:23,560 --> 00:54:28,479 Speaker 1: leaves us, we are collectively losing a direct connection to 935 00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:31,640 Speaker 1: the worst versions of some of this division and the 936 00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:34,480 Speaker 1: scale of political violence like taken to the maximum and 937 00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,480 Speaker 1: to the extreme. So we have a temporal gap to 938 00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,719 Speaker 1: chatti clothes, but also into your point spatial when you 939 00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:43,799 Speaker 1: can bring people who've been through it, who know the 940 00:54:43,880 --> 00:54:46,480 Speaker 1: worst of this and also the healing that's possible on 941 00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:50,239 Speaker 1: the other side, bring them home here to your territory. 942 00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:52,880 Speaker 1: What does that look like him how are they received? 943 00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:56,480 Speaker 1: So in June we took this most recent report and 944 00:54:56,520 --> 00:54:59,440 Speaker 1: I brought Rolfmeyer, who was the key negotiator and the 945 00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,239 Speaker 1: talk Stand Apartheid. So this is a man who grew 946 00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,440 Speaker 1: up as a white afrikana who thought that apartheid was 947 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,200 Speaker 1: normally good for whites but for blacks early in his 948 00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,920 Speaker 1: career shocking, but that was the mental model of the 949 00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:14,239 Speaker 1: world he had. He then went through a process of 950 00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:17,279 Speaker 1: recognizing this system is corrupt and I need to do 951 00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:19,239 Speaker 1: what I can to end it. So he became the 952 00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:23,959 Speaker 1: chief negotiator in the talk Stand Apartheid, and he said, 953 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,840 Speaker 1: I came to realize over a period of years, not 954 00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,640 Speaker 1: only the corruption of apartheid, but what was in the 955 00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:32,799 Speaker 1: mindset of my community to even set this system up. 956 00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:35,600 Speaker 1: So we went to Washington and met with some of 957 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,719 Speaker 1: the key congressional leaders on the Democratic side, because we 958 00:55:38,800 --> 00:55:41,640 Speaker 1: tried to get some Republican but not at that time 959 00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:45,520 Speaker 1: interested and we met with key congressional leaders and they 960 00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:47,840 Speaker 1: were old enough to know the role that Rolfe played. 961 00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,480 Speaker 1: But talking about identity threats, social standards threat in this country. 962 00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,000 Speaker 1: It had a huge impact on the members of Congress 963 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:57,920 Speaker 1: in the meeting and the question was where do we 964 00:55:57,960 --> 00:56:01,160 Speaker 1: go from here? And Rolfe and I were talking afterwards 965 00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:04,400 Speaker 1: and country after country and even Monica McWilliams, who founded 966 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,040 Speaker 1: the Women's Coalition in Northern Ireland said we all got 967 00:56:07,080 --> 00:56:08,919 Speaker 1: to the point said there needs to be a better way. 968 00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:12,279 Speaker 1: And that's when these leaders and other countries, and we 969 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,480 Speaker 1: are often involved but not the only ones, would go 970 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,240 Speaker 1: to these other countries and come back and say, wow, 971 00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:19,160 Speaker 1: if they can do it, we can do it because 972 00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,360 Speaker 1: this is a shared human challenge of how do you 973 00:56:21,680 --> 00:56:24,080 Speaker 1: sit across the table from your enemy? Can you forgive? 974 00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:27,760 Speaker 1: And we need it here so I want to shift 975 00:56:27,880 --> 00:56:30,120 Speaker 1: us into bring it in some of the questions that 976 00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:33,960 Speaker 1: people submitted, we've got Mark texted, are you trying to 977 00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:35,879 Speaker 1: seek middle ground with those who may view the world 978 00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:38,600 Speaker 1: differently than you or is your goal only really reached 979 00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,080 Speaker 1: when they have one hundred percent bought into your political viewpoints. 980 00:56:41,320 --> 00:56:45,000 Speaker 1: We can't expect nor do we need to convince everybody 981 00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:47,399 Speaker 1: of somebody's point of view what you need to do. 982 00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,440 Speaker 1: And it's country after country. Most people are not political 983 00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,320 Speaker 1: A democratic Republican and I'm aggressive of a mega supporter. 984 00:56:53,640 --> 00:56:55,400 Speaker 1: They think about what am I going to do today 985 00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:57,880 Speaker 1: for my family, my work and all these things that 986 00:56:57,960 --> 00:56:59,800 Speaker 1: are in front of me, and yet they care about 987 00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,480 Speaker 1: it takes many of them, not all, and that's where 988 00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:06,200 Speaker 1: the vast majority are and they just want the system 989 00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:08,960 Speaker 1: to work. Yeah, so we don't have to win everybody over. 990 00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,760 Speaker 1: We just have to win enough people over to say 991 00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,360 Speaker 1: we live in a diverse country. We live in a 992 00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:18,960 Speaker 1: multiracial nation which is not fully a multiracial democracy. And 993 00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:21,800 Speaker 1: the only way we're going to address these shared problems 994 00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:25,480 Speaker 1: is finding what we have a shared problems today to address, 995 00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:30,000 Speaker 1: because our research shows that Americans have far more common 996 00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:32,720 Speaker 1: than they imagine, and how do we build off that 997 00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:34,760 Speaker 1: with all people feeling that they have to give up 998 00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:38,000 Speaker 1: their core identities or interest Thank you, We're going to 999 00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,240 Speaker 1: continue this conversation. We have some live questioners queued up. 1000 00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:45,680 Speaker 1: Damon Williams Europe first, and go ahead and state your question. 1001 00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,840 Speaker 1: I'm Damian Williams from Memphis, Tennessee. And you've kind of 1002 00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,000 Speaker 1: touched on it already. But what I was really wondering, 1003 00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:56,120 Speaker 1: you know, what it looks like is just different world perspectives. 1004 00:57:56,480 --> 00:57:58,040 Speaker 1: And I've seen it, and I've had in my own 1005 00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,760 Speaker 1: experience where two people will look at the same thing 1006 00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:06,440 Speaker 1: and literally see two different things. So how do you 1007 00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:09,640 Speaker 1: have some kind of reconciliation with someone who's experiencing a 1008 00:58:09,720 --> 00:58:14,680 Speaker 1: completely different reality. One of the simplest and best interventions 1009 00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:18,400 Speaker 1: I've learned from my colleagues in the science is context. 1010 00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:22,320 Speaker 1: Is that our brains have alved to be predictive. We're 1011 00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:26,720 Speaker 1: constantly trying to predict our social and physical environment. And 1012 00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:29,920 Speaker 1: if we don't know or have experienced the lived experience 1013 00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:33,240 Speaker 1: of others, we can access it through context. Oh, I 1014 00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:35,400 Speaker 1: know what that feels like in my community. I know 1015 00:58:35,440 --> 00:58:38,520 Speaker 1: what that feels like in my experience. So how do 1016 00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:42,080 Speaker 1: you contextualize something. I'll give you a concrete example, and 1017 00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:44,680 Speaker 1: it may not completely connect to your point, but I 1018 00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,680 Speaker 1: think it's related. So there was a statue of Abraham 1019 00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:51,080 Speaker 1: Lincoln in Boston that was a replica of the one 1020 00:58:51,080 --> 00:58:54,600 Speaker 1: in DC that was built about a decade after his 1021 00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,520 Speaker 1: assassination and he was standing on a pedestal with two 1022 00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:00,520 Speaker 1: freed slaves looking up to him, unshackled. Even at the 1023 00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:04,400 Speaker 1: revealing of this in Washington, Frederick Douglas said, this is inappropriate, 1024 00:59:04,800 --> 00:59:08,960 Speaker 1: it's dehumanizing. So two years ago the city of Boston 1025 00:59:09,080 --> 00:59:11,160 Speaker 1: decided to take a down and a friend of mine 1026 00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:13,920 Speaker 1: went to college with whose Irish American called me up 1027 00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:18,680 Speaker 1: and he's sort of centator. A conservative said, is Abraham 1028 00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:22,400 Speaker 1: Lincoln now being canceled? And what I said to him is, 1029 00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:26,640 Speaker 1: you know, Bob, imagine if there was a statue of 1030 00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:31,520 Speaker 1: Queen Victoria or Oliver Cromwell and Boston. Before I could finish, 1031 00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:35,240 Speaker 1: he said, take that statue down. It connected to his 1032 00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,440 Speaker 1: lived experience because there are these narratives in the Irish 1033 00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,640 Speaker 1: American immigrant community of the famine and what Queen Victoria 1034 00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:45,520 Speaker 1: did and what Oliver Cromwell had done earlier. The notion 1035 00:59:45,680 --> 00:59:49,920 Speaker 1: of a statue representing those two is so ibhortant that 1036 00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:52,160 Speaker 1: he all of a sudden contextualized. Well, I guess I 1037 00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:54,479 Speaker 1: can understand now what that would mean for someone who's 1038 00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:58,400 Speaker 1: African American. And from a research point of view, a 1039 00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:01,400 Speaker 1: simple intervention like that, and they've followed up can last 1040 01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:05,320 Speaker 1: a lifetime. That's fascinating. Oh, I want to follow up 1041 01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:06,600 Speaker 1: on everything, but we have so many more in the 1042 01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:08,760 Speaker 1: que I want to give keep the passing the Mike, 1043 01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:13,080 Speaker 1: Allison Mousqueta, please go ahead and state your question. Thanks. Hi, 1044 01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:17,280 Speaker 1: I'm Alison Musqueta. I am here in Denver, Colorado, and 1045 01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:20,040 Speaker 1: I work in public health across the entire state of 1046 01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,240 Speaker 1: Colorado and lots of different communities that all have very 1047 01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:26,600 Speaker 1: unique their own cultures, their own belief systems, lots of 1048 01:00:26,640 --> 01:00:31,080 Speaker 1: political differences, and I work in a program where we 1049 01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:32,800 Speaker 1: all have the similar goal, but we have a lot 1050 01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,680 Speaker 1: of different ideas about how to get there. And I 1051 01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:38,160 Speaker 1: really find that one way to do that is similar 1052 01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,320 Speaker 1: to what I think you've been saying, is find those 1053 01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,880 Speaker 1: foundations of what we all agree upon as the basis 1054 01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:47,400 Speaker 1: of the conversation and build from there. And it's taking me, 1055 01:00:47,440 --> 01:00:50,200 Speaker 1: as a young professional, long time to learn these skills. 1056 01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:52,440 Speaker 1: I was never taught these things. So I was just 1057 01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:56,840 Speaker 1: really thinking about my two young children and concern for them, like, 1058 01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:00,400 Speaker 1: how do we teach young kids and young people to 1059 01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:02,600 Speaker 1: prepare them to be in a world where these kinds 1060 01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:05,240 Speaker 1: of conversations are going to be really critical and importance 1061 01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:09,360 Speaker 1: and have this healthy level of conflict when what they 1062 01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:12,880 Speaker 1: see role modeled around us right now is not that. 1063 01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:16,200 Speaker 1: What many of the South Africans, for example, would tell 1064 01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:20,880 Speaker 1: people in other countries is process before substance in a 1065 01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:24,160 Speaker 1: deeply divided setting, to go to the issues that divide 1066 01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:27,600 Speaker 1: people as a recipe for disaster, because then people don't listen. 1067 01:01:27,840 --> 01:01:30,240 Speaker 1: And it's not just from a political or an explicit 1068 01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:33,200 Speaker 1: it's as much as psychological mindset. I don't know you, 1069 01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:35,880 Speaker 1: I don't trust you, Why should I trust you? And 1070 01:01:36,280 --> 01:01:39,240 Speaker 1: the process piece to me the common ground that we 1071 01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:41,720 Speaker 1: need to lay whether it's in a family or school 1072 01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:44,520 Speaker 1: or other settings. And we've been trying this, by the way, 1073 01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,440 Speaker 1: with some of these different groups over the last few years, 1074 01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:50,800 Speaker 1: is laying out these processes. Let's talk about how our 1075 01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:54,640 Speaker 1: brain navigates the world. Let's talk about common experiences we 1076 01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,400 Speaker 1: have and what it feels like to be marginalized, humiliated. 1077 01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:01,200 Speaker 1: You know, what is it to feel human fragility? What 1078 01:02:01,360 --> 01:02:04,360 Speaker 1: is it to feel privileged? Do you feel privilege? And 1079 01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:07,760 Speaker 1: so we take out the sort of precursor white fragility, 1080 01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:11,320 Speaker 1: white privilege, because I think it in the context of 1081 01:02:11,360 --> 01:02:14,000 Speaker 1: Northern Ireland. If the Catholics said, of the Protestants, what 1082 01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:16,400 Speaker 1: we need to do is talk first about your Unionist 1083 01:02:16,440 --> 01:02:21,080 Speaker 1: or Protestant fragility or privilege, those conversations would have gone 1084 01:02:21,120 --> 01:02:25,720 Speaker 1: nowhere because you've already had this deep identity based conflict 1085 01:02:25,760 --> 01:02:29,440 Speaker 1: where those identity markers play a much more salient important 1086 01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:33,440 Speaker 1: role than core political and economic interest. I mean, it's 1087 01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:35,680 Speaker 1: very clear if that book that came out several years ago, 1088 01:02:35,720 --> 01:02:38,720 Speaker 1: what's the matter of the Kansas is people will always, 1089 01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:43,000 Speaker 1: you know, they say it an organization's culture, Trump's process. Well, 1090 01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:46,240 Speaker 1: culture and identity will trump everything because that's what's deeply 1091 01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:50,120 Speaker 1: sort of ingrained in our evolution is how we navigate 1092 01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:54,040 Speaker 1: the world is on these identity markers. And so if 1093 01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:57,960 Speaker 1: we could think about organizing conversations and a more neutral 1094 01:02:58,080 --> 01:03:02,320 Speaker 1: human center term as opposed to a Democrat, Republican, liberal, conservative, 1095 01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:05,880 Speaker 1: Catholic Protestant, what is it that we all share? I 1096 01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:09,080 Speaker 1: want children's videos of the things that you've already launched 1097 01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:14,000 Speaker 1: into the world. And well, i'll just flag this now. 1098 01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:17,720 Speaker 1: I think there will be tension between speaking truth and 1099 01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:23,440 Speaker 1: being effective in your linguistic approach to preserve an open door, right, 1100 01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:26,120 Speaker 1: And so if we're just going to talk vaguely about 1101 01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:28,640 Speaker 1: privilege and that save white privilege or supremacy, and that 1102 01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:32,240 Speaker 1: save white supremacy, what's the trade off in terms of 1103 01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:36,280 Speaker 1: completeness versus openness that the other would even have to 1104 01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:40,600 Speaker 1: entering that conversation, Bartune, I agree with you totally about privilege. 1105 01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:43,520 Speaker 1: The thought is, how do you have a conversation about 1106 01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:46,720 Speaker 1: the nature of privilege and then say so in this context, 1107 01:03:46,760 --> 01:03:48,840 Speaker 1: could you feel privileged by the color of your skin? 1108 01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:53,080 Speaker 1: As opposed to not even going there. It's to be 1109 01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:55,600 Speaker 1: able to have people think about, all right, I've already 1110 01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:58,760 Speaker 1: sent in the conversation of privilege in my brain, right, 1111 01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:02,720 Speaker 1: and I'm already gendering in my mind, oh I know, 1112 01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:05,760 Speaker 1: or I don't feel privileged, but could you feel privileged here? 1113 01:04:06,800 --> 01:04:09,520 Speaker 1: And then you're creating a cognitive pathway for people to 1114 01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:11,960 Speaker 1: engage something. You're walking them up to it rather than 1115 01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:14,640 Speaker 1: slamming them. Yeah, you're walking them up to it as 1116 01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:16,840 Speaker 1: opposed to the way I learned how to swim. Whether 1117 01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:18,560 Speaker 1: it just threw me in the deep end and say 1118 01:04:18,600 --> 01:04:20,040 Speaker 1: do you know how to swim? I'm like, I guess 1119 01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:22,040 Speaker 1: I do now if I want to live thanks to 1120 01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:27,480 Speaker 1: each All right, Mary Pearl coming on line and go 1121 01:04:27,480 --> 01:04:31,160 Speaker 1: ahead and state your question. Thought. Well, my name is 1122 01:04:31,160 --> 01:04:33,560 Speaker 1: Mary Pearl. I'm dog sitting at my brother's house on 1123 01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:36,840 Speaker 1: Cape Cod and I'm hearing that Tim thinks we have 1124 01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:40,200 Speaker 1: to start where we are today to have these conversations. 1125 01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:43,240 Speaker 1: But I just have to ask it. Don't we have 1126 01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:47,680 Speaker 1: to have a reckoning with our history of systemic racism 1127 01:04:47,720 --> 01:04:52,560 Speaker 1: and violence and indigenous slaughter. It's used me. There's a deep, psychological, 1128 01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:58,560 Speaker 1: strong connection between white supremacy and hatred of Indigenous people 1129 01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:02,240 Speaker 1: from our past that just infuse our presence. So how 1130 01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:04,320 Speaker 1: can we get to a new place of respect and 1131 01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:10,040 Speaker 1: understanding if we can acknowledge the history? Yeah, I mean 1132 01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:12,800 Speaker 1: that is such a key question here, and it's a 1133 01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:15,960 Speaker 1: key question pretty much every country worked in in the past, 1134 01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:21,560 Speaker 1: and they're also often very divided and difficult and never 1135 01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:26,480 Speaker 1: completely resolved. My personal view is that it's very difficult 1136 01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:30,640 Speaker 1: to talk about reconciling of people until you reconcile a history. 1137 01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:33,200 Speaker 1: And the question is how do you do that in 1138 01:05:33,240 --> 01:05:36,120 Speaker 1: such a way that it advances real change? And I 1139 01:05:36,160 --> 01:05:38,680 Speaker 1: think you have to break it down as one is 1140 01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:42,360 Speaker 1: to acknowledge what has happened, and what are the ways 1141 01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:45,040 Speaker 1: in which you can do it actually is meaningful to 1142 01:05:45,120 --> 01:05:48,720 Speaker 1: the communities that need that history acknowledged, and what is 1143 01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:54,120 Speaker 1: the repair today for their descendants and the legacy of 1144 01:05:54,240 --> 01:05:57,440 Speaker 1: four centuries of blatant to humanization to people of color 1145 01:05:57,480 --> 01:05:59,840 Speaker 1: in this country. I mean Native Americans in particular and 1146 01:06:00,000 --> 01:06:05,800 Speaker 1: African Americans. So those are absolutely essential. The question then becomes, 1147 01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:10,040 Speaker 1: how do you move those forward in a country that's 1148 01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:16,160 Speaker 1: deeply not just divided politically, but with the recognition of 1149 01:06:16,200 --> 01:06:18,800 Speaker 1: what happened to Native Americans and African Americans who are 1150 01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:23,320 Speaker 1: brought here, is all these other immigrant communities Asians, Latinos, 1151 01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:26,720 Speaker 1: Muslims and others who have had Irish American, Italian American 1152 01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:29,080 Speaker 1: when they come over, we're really dehumanized, and they have 1153 01:06:29,160 --> 01:06:32,760 Speaker 1: these narratives in their families. And so what I've been 1154 01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:34,680 Speaker 1: doing for the last couple of years is reaching out 1155 01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,360 Speaker 1: to the people who led these truth commissions in many 1156 01:06:37,360 --> 01:06:40,760 Speaker 1: countries around the world and say, what can we bring 1157 01:06:40,800 --> 01:06:43,560 Speaker 1: to this moment in the United States, How do we 1158 01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:47,919 Speaker 1: stage this, how do we do in such a way 1159 01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:52,560 Speaker 1: that it can really be a process of healing and transformation. Yeah, 1160 01:06:52,640 --> 01:06:55,480 Speaker 1: I have a little trick I learned on this one, Mary, 1161 01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:58,320 Speaker 1: and I think the history can be a real third 1162 01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:03,280 Speaker 1: rail and to tim earlier point, context matters, and so 1163 01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,280 Speaker 1: how you walk people up to it. And because I 1164 01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:08,680 Speaker 1: end up talking to a lot of white people, I'm 1165 01:07:08,680 --> 01:07:12,000 Speaker 1: the white people whisperer in terms of race conversations. Sometimes 1166 01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:14,920 Speaker 1: I try to I tell a personal story of my 1167 01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:19,520 Speaker 1: own emotional challenge with accepting the painful history right in 1168 01:07:19,520 --> 01:07:22,320 Speaker 1: my own family history, with the heroic figure, you know, 1169 01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:24,480 Speaker 1: my mother, who a lot of people know of, and 1170 01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:26,840 Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, but also there were these other things 1171 01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,280 Speaker 1: about her and they created challenges for me. And there's 1172 01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:31,880 Speaker 1: a longer version of it, but essentially, like I hook 1173 01:07:31,920 --> 01:07:36,280 Speaker 1: them in with the mom was fallible story and tell 1174 01:07:36,400 --> 01:07:38,600 Speaker 1: my journey of healing on the other side of that, 1175 01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:41,360 Speaker 1: and how I actually have a deeper knowledge of my 1176 01:07:41,400 --> 01:07:44,440 Speaker 1: mother through this acknowledgment and thus a deeper love. And 1177 01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:47,000 Speaker 1: that's what I want for us in the country. And 1178 01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:51,040 Speaker 1: so it's entering through a point not of lecture and 1179 01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:58,480 Speaker 1: shame positioning, but rather confession. Really first, here's my experience, 1180 01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:01,120 Speaker 1: Here's how hard it hurt. Here's what I found on 1181 01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:04,800 Speaker 1: the other side. I want you to have that same transformation, 1182 01:08:05,200 --> 01:08:08,040 Speaker 1: that same journey, that same taste of freedom, and for 1183 01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:11,360 Speaker 1: the people who've had direct access to that's a much 1184 01:08:11,720 --> 01:08:16,559 Speaker 1: more welcome pathway into a real hard conversation than your 1185 01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:20,120 Speaker 1: daddy owned slaves. You are a white supremosies, you know, 1186 01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:23,920 Speaker 1: like it just doesn't quite do the same thing. Yeah, 1187 01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:26,840 Speaker 1: Can I add one quick thing bartunity? And that is 1188 01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:31,040 Speaker 1: the challenge we have in this country is that the 1189 01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:34,320 Speaker 1: truth commissions that emerged, the Truth and Reconciliation commissions from 1190 01:08:34,400 --> 01:08:38,479 Speaker 1: Argentina and Chile and then picked up by South Africa, 1191 01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:41,559 Speaker 1: we're mostly state run dictatorships. And then they had a 1192 01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:45,120 Speaker 1: lot of people supporting it, but they were institutionalized, legally 1193 01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:48,960 Speaker 1: set up state dictatorships. What we're seeing from Northern Ireland 1194 01:08:48,960 --> 01:08:52,439 Speaker 1: to the United States is mostly there are elements of 1195 01:08:52,479 --> 01:08:55,760 Speaker 1: the state and history in states who still today do 1196 01:08:55,920 --> 01:08:59,799 Speaker 1: things that are horrific. But it's a lot of civilian 1197 01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:02,559 Speaker 1: civilian if you know what I'm saying, right, and so 1198 01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:07,040 Speaker 1: nobody has quite figured out what is the process in 1199 01:09:07,120 --> 01:09:11,240 Speaker 1: a deeply divided community that is hyperpolarized to come to 1200 01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:15,840 Speaker 1: terms with this, and people would go to the model 1201 01:09:16,000 --> 01:09:18,719 Speaker 1: in South Africa, and the South Africans went to Argentina 1202 01:09:18,760 --> 01:09:24,360 Speaker 1: and Chile. And the benefit of that is Afrikaans and 1203 01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:27,559 Speaker 1: white people could say, ah, it was the system, yeah, right, 1204 01:09:27,920 --> 01:09:32,639 Speaker 1: or in Argentina Chile it was the military dictatorship here right, 1205 01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:37,280 Speaker 1: people's yeah. That's what I struggle with because of the 1206 01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:41,200 Speaker 1: identity based nature of our divisions, it makes it so 1207 01:09:41,280 --> 01:09:43,840 Speaker 1: much more difficult. So I agree it needs to be done, 1208 01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:46,120 Speaker 1: but let's figure out a way to do it with 1209 01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:50,480 Speaker 1: the tools we have to make it meaningful and transformative. Andrea, 1210 01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:52,680 Speaker 1: we are about to call on you. I don't know 1211 01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:55,120 Speaker 1: if it's Andrea or Andrea you will let us know. 1212 01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:59,120 Speaker 1: Go ahead and state the question that you have. I'm Andrea. 1213 01:09:59,280 --> 01:10:04,320 Speaker 1: I'm from Washington State, and I was just wondering when 1214 01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:08,640 Speaker 1: you have two people who when you're in a conversation 1215 01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:16,400 Speaker 1: with somebody where the conversation is becoming not useful anymore, 1216 01:10:16,960 --> 01:10:21,519 Speaker 1: what kind of linguistic tactics do you have to get 1217 01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:26,720 Speaker 1: the conversation going in a positive direction. I've struggled with this, 1218 01:10:27,640 --> 01:10:30,719 Speaker 1: and it was more difficult because it's my own people 1219 01:10:30,760 --> 01:10:33,519 Speaker 1: I know and so forth. But here's what I've tested 1220 01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:37,160 Speaker 1: and learned more anecdotably, when somebody said to me recently 1221 01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:40,639 Speaker 1: that the twenty twenty election was stolen, that Joe Biden 1222 01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:44,320 Speaker 1: is illegitimate, and that Donald Trump is the best president 1223 01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:47,320 Speaker 1: we've ever had. Rather than getting angry and outrage and 1224 01:10:47,360 --> 01:10:49,280 Speaker 1: get into the issues, I said, well, I can maybe 1225 01:10:49,360 --> 01:10:52,320 Speaker 1: understand why you feel that way. And what it did 1226 01:10:52,439 --> 01:10:54,040 Speaker 1: was I could see there was like a change in 1227 01:10:54,040 --> 01:10:57,880 Speaker 1: this person's countenance. What he was expecting was me to 1228 01:10:57,960 --> 01:11:01,000 Speaker 1: come back in an aggressive way. I said, I can 1229 01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:04,200 Speaker 1: understand why you feel that way. What I didn't say 1230 01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:07,519 Speaker 1: was I agree with you. You're wrong. Don't you realize 1231 01:11:07,520 --> 01:11:10,519 Speaker 1: what he stand for? Don't you realize what happened? And 1232 01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:13,320 Speaker 1: what it forced him to do was a bit of 1233 01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:17,240 Speaker 1: cognitive dissidents to rethink, so, huh, what does this mean? 1234 01:11:17,800 --> 01:11:19,760 Speaker 1: And I could see it going on. And I had 1235 01:11:19,760 --> 01:11:22,960 Speaker 1: the benefit of speaking to some brilliant social psychologists ahead 1236 01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:24,439 Speaker 1: of times, saying I want to try this, and they 1237 01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:27,240 Speaker 1: said it creates cognitive dissidents because people come in with 1238 01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:30,519 Speaker 1: an expectation that you're going to act and speak in 1239 01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:34,240 Speaker 1: a certain way. And then I didn't want to then 1240 01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:35,960 Speaker 1: at that point, because I knew I would see this 1241 01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,920 Speaker 1: person continue on the conversation. I wanted him to sit 1242 01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:42,439 Speaker 1: with I understand you. I mean it's almost like if 1243 01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:45,360 Speaker 1: you're keeping them engaged, they're not storm in a capital, right, 1244 01:11:45,880 --> 01:11:48,120 Speaker 1: And so if that's the energy you have, and again 1245 01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:50,840 Speaker 1: Tim said this already, that's not everybody's job. But if 1246 01:11:50,840 --> 01:11:53,280 Speaker 1: you find yourself in that situation and you want to 1247 01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:56,479 Speaker 1: try it, I think it can be worth a shot. 1248 01:11:56,800 --> 01:11:59,720 Speaker 1: You also can't change most of us are not in a 1249 01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:01,439 Speaker 1: a position to change in one's mind if we don't 1250 01:12:01,439 --> 01:12:04,960 Speaker 1: have a relationship with them. And so preserving the link 1251 01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:09,400 Speaker 1: is also preserving the opportunity to move people across that 1252 01:12:09,479 --> 01:12:12,040 Speaker 1: link and to be moved, you know, into some degree. 1253 01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:16,439 Speaker 1: But if we just have a counter energy and a 1254 01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:19,880 Speaker 1: severing of relationship, then we're severing one of the pillars 1255 01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:22,200 Speaker 1: of how a citizen, which is to invest in relationships, 1256 01:12:22,920 --> 01:12:26,280 Speaker 1: and we're sort of we're losing an opportunity to potentially 1257 01:12:26,400 --> 01:12:29,360 Speaker 1: persuade or change or shift that may come later. We 1258 01:12:29,479 --> 01:12:33,120 Speaker 1: got one more live question, Deborah Scheka. My name is 1259 01:12:33,160 --> 01:12:36,719 Speaker 1: Deborah and I am in Reno, Nevada. So my question 1260 01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:39,040 Speaker 1: is this. I've been thinking about how polar and I've 1261 01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:41,960 Speaker 1: been divided our country is and it troubles me deeply, 1262 01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:44,400 Speaker 1: and so what can I do? You know, I call 1263 01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:47,960 Speaker 1: a service center and I talk to a customer service 1264 01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:50,320 Speaker 1: agent and I try to be extra nice ideal with 1265 01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:53,320 Speaker 1: people in the grocery store and try to be extra nice. 1266 01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:55,320 Speaker 1: And that's the only thing I've been able to come 1267 01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:57,240 Speaker 1: up with. And it's kind of a nice thing to do, 1268 01:12:57,360 --> 01:13:00,639 Speaker 1: but it feels like it's not enough. What else can 1269 01:13:00,680 --> 01:13:02,920 Speaker 1: we do? Or is being extra nice to everyone we 1270 01:13:03,040 --> 01:13:06,519 Speaker 1: encounter that meet our standards as well? Is that going 1271 01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:09,280 Speaker 1: to going to give points for that? You know, I 1272 01:13:09,280 --> 01:13:11,480 Speaker 1: think we have to pick and choose on an individual 1273 01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:14,960 Speaker 1: level those relationships that we want to invest in. It 1274 01:13:14,960 --> 01:13:17,160 Speaker 1: could be a family member, it could be a coworker. 1275 01:13:17,600 --> 01:13:21,520 Speaker 1: There could be somebody that you know you have profound disagreement, 1276 01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:23,760 Speaker 1: but they will be in your life in some way, 1277 01:13:23,760 --> 01:13:26,960 Speaker 1: and you want a decent relationship. On a broader scale. 1278 01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:33,320 Speaker 1: What I've seen and recommend is be engaged citizens, you know, 1279 01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:37,080 Speaker 1: step out of your silos, look for those moments where 1280 01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:40,400 Speaker 1: you can actually do something that crosses divides. I mean, 1281 01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:43,599 Speaker 1: if there's one lesson that all these leaders from profound 1282 01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:45,559 Speaker 1: divides in other countries who have been through the ship 1283 01:13:45,840 --> 01:13:49,599 Speaker 1: to put up bluntly say is you've got to find 1284 01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:53,000 Speaker 1: ways to live together and cooperate because the alternative is 1285 01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:57,360 Speaker 1: really bad. The other thing is norms play an outsize 1286 01:13:57,760 --> 01:14:02,240 Speaker 1: role in shaping behavior. Research showed in behavioral science that 1287 01:14:02,360 --> 01:14:05,559 Speaker 1: actually focusing on hearts and minds has very little impact 1288 01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:08,439 Speaker 1: on behavior as much as norms do. In fact, people's 1289 01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:11,519 Speaker 1: hearts and minds will follow to shape to their new norm. 1290 01:14:12,439 --> 01:14:15,760 Speaker 1: And think of those leaders and institutions that we want 1291 01:14:15,760 --> 01:14:18,400 Speaker 1: to elevate, whether it be a Republican, a Democrat, and 1292 01:14:18,479 --> 01:14:22,480 Speaker 1: independent or cultural figures who have the capacity to shape 1293 01:14:22,560 --> 01:14:25,639 Speaker 1: new norms. When I think of John McCain in two 1294 01:14:25,680 --> 01:14:27,960 Speaker 1: thousand and eight, when that woman came up and said 1295 01:14:28,600 --> 01:14:31,479 Speaker 1: candidate Barack Obama was on an American What did John 1296 01:14:31,520 --> 01:14:34,400 Speaker 1: McCain do. He took the microphone and said, no, I'm sorry, miss, 1297 01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:38,599 Speaker 1: that's incorrect, that's wrong. That has a big influence. We 1298 01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:41,040 Speaker 1: need to be finding people, but take me on the 1299 01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:44,559 Speaker 1: Republican side, who are willing to step up and do 1300 01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:47,640 Speaker 1: the right thing. And I think that can shape an 1301 01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:51,280 Speaker 1: environment that can begin to bring the temperature down. Because 1302 01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:55,080 Speaker 1: one thing we see, and again I've seen this in 1303 01:14:55,120 --> 01:14:58,599 Speaker 1: other countries. People don't like to live their lives with 1304 01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:02,840 Speaker 1: this much toxics city in the environment. And you know, 1305 01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:05,000 Speaker 1: there are some who benefit from it, some who find 1306 01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:08,160 Speaker 1: it very entertaining and energizing, but the vast for joining Yeah, 1307 01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:10,479 Speaker 1: not the most, but not the most, but not most 1308 01:15:10,479 --> 01:15:12,759 Speaker 1: of us. And I think that's that's a good common 1309 01:15:12,840 --> 01:15:15,920 Speaker 1: ground to re establish them. We can all agree, even 1310 01:15:15,960 --> 01:15:18,200 Speaker 1: if we don't share it a factual reality, we share 1311 01:15:18,280 --> 01:15:22,000 Speaker 1: that emotional exhaustion reality, and that is a possible bridge 1312 01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:25,960 Speaker 1: as well. Gun stim We got to talk about guns. 1313 01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:31,800 Speaker 1: I think the context for increasing language around dehumanization and 1314 01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:35,840 Speaker 1: anti democratic norms and openness to political violence. It hits 1315 01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:37,960 Speaker 1: differently in the US because we have so many guns 1316 01:15:38,000 --> 01:15:41,880 Speaker 1: per capita here and so the fears of violence are 1317 01:15:42,120 --> 01:15:45,320 Speaker 1: justified in ways that they might not be in other 1318 01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:47,360 Speaker 1: places with just a lot of newspapers talking a lot 1319 01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:51,680 Speaker 1: of smack. Do you have any research experience focus on 1320 01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:55,680 Speaker 1: the special relationship that we have with guns in the 1321 01:15:55,760 --> 01:16:00,920 Speaker 1: US and the unique challenges that creates for reversing this spiraling, 1322 01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:04,360 Speaker 1: escalating threat. And it's horrendous to see the amount of 1323 01:16:04,360 --> 01:16:06,480 Speaker 1: guns and the gun culture we have in this country. 1324 01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:09,599 Speaker 1: You know, I mentioned earlier that things that we hold 1325 01:16:09,600 --> 01:16:11,639 Speaker 1: to be sacred to us a process in the different 1326 01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:15,000 Speaker 1: part of the brain than other utilitarian calculations. So I 1327 01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:17,880 Speaker 1: wrote a piece after Sandy Hook, six months eight months 1328 01:16:17,880 --> 01:16:21,160 Speaker 1: after Sandy Hook, looking at sacred values and gun control 1329 01:16:21,680 --> 01:16:26,200 Speaker 1: and recognize that after seeing a failure of gun legislation 1330 01:16:26,240 --> 01:16:30,320 Speaker 1: after Sandy Hook, it actually got worse. What are we missing? 1331 01:16:30,640 --> 01:16:33,400 Speaker 1: Is there a different way to frame the protection of 1332 01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:36,840 Speaker 1: children and a different way to frame a conversation with 1333 01:16:36,920 --> 01:16:39,639 Speaker 1: those gun odors who really think it's like a sacred value. 1334 01:16:40,120 --> 01:16:41,880 Speaker 1: And I'll be happy to share that and you can 1335 01:16:41,920 --> 01:16:44,040 Speaker 1: link it. But that got a lot of interest and 1336 01:16:44,320 --> 01:16:50,479 Speaker 1: the answer, you know, I don't know the answer, my friend. 1337 01:16:50,640 --> 01:16:54,679 Speaker 1: And yeah, it's deeply embedded. You know. I said to somebody, 1338 01:16:54,720 --> 01:16:59,080 Speaker 1: we never demobilize as a nation from the American revolutions. Wow, 1339 01:16:59,120 --> 01:17:03,400 Speaker 1: And that no of militias and the right to be 1340 01:17:03,439 --> 01:17:10,120 Speaker 1: our arms has never been reformed and changed. Yeah. We 1341 01:17:10,160 --> 01:17:13,759 Speaker 1: ask all of our guests, how do you define citizen 1342 01:17:14,000 --> 01:17:16,320 Speaker 1: if you interpret it as we do as a verb, 1343 01:17:16,600 --> 01:17:20,800 Speaker 1: What does it mean to citizen to you tim, to engage, 1344 01:17:20,880 --> 01:17:25,320 Speaker 1: to know what's happening around you, to show the concern 1345 01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:30,679 Speaker 1: about your family, your community, your colleagues, and the country 1346 01:17:30,720 --> 01:17:33,000 Speaker 1: you live in. Because there are a lot of well 1347 01:17:33,120 --> 01:17:36,400 Speaker 1: educated people that I know, and when I ask them 1348 01:17:36,400 --> 01:17:39,240 Speaker 1: about the state of affairs, they're clueless. And it's not 1349 01:17:39,280 --> 01:17:43,599 Speaker 1: because they're stupid. They don't know. And I think it's 1350 01:17:43,640 --> 01:17:47,160 Speaker 1: a requirement to understand the world you live in, particularly 1351 01:17:47,200 --> 01:17:50,600 Speaker 1: at this moment in time. Tim Phillips, thank you for 1352 01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:54,320 Speaker 1: helping us see the possibilities of a world beyond conflict 1353 01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:59,760 Speaker 1: and spending this time with us. Thank you, Thank everybody. 1354 01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:05,920 Speaker 1: It's hard to feel fully satisfied after a conversation like this. 1355 01:18:06,320 --> 01:18:10,760 Speaker 1: The kind of intractable disagreement, dehumanization, distrust, and disinformation we're 1356 01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:14,840 Speaker 1: up against. It's just overwhelming and a problem. This complex 1357 01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:20,400 Speaker 1: doesn't have a simple solution. Tim and Beyond Conflict have 1358 01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:25,040 Speaker 1: contributed to a constellation of approaches and insights that we 1359 01:18:25,080 --> 01:18:27,760 Speaker 1: can interpret and try to use in our own communities. 1360 01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:32,559 Speaker 1: And they've also reminded us that comforting or not, the 1361 01:18:32,680 --> 01:18:34,960 Speaker 1: United States is not the first country to live through 1362 01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:38,400 Speaker 1: intense division, and we're definitely not the first to believe 1363 01:18:38,439 --> 01:18:47,160 Speaker 1: that moving beyond it is impossible. I remain most heartened 1364 01:18:47,160 --> 01:18:50,639 Speaker 1: by Beyond Conflicts research which shows that we're not as 1365 01:18:50,680 --> 01:18:53,640 Speaker 1: far apart as we think we are. Basically, what I 1366 01:18:53,680 --> 01:18:57,200 Speaker 1: think Republicans think of me is far worse than what 1367 01:18:57,280 --> 01:19:01,080 Speaker 1: they actually think of me, and vice versa. That's important. 1368 01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:03,960 Speaker 1: But as far as the tactics that we use to 1369 01:19:04,040 --> 01:19:07,200 Speaker 1: reconnect to each other, I think tim and Beyond conflict 1370 01:19:07,200 --> 01:19:10,320 Speaker 1: they get us part of the way there. So this 1371 01:19:10,400 --> 01:19:13,760 Speaker 1: is the first of two episodes we have addressing this 1372 01:19:13,800 --> 01:19:19,080 Speaker 1: division at the heart of our democratic culture. I'm thinking 1373 01:19:19,120 --> 01:19:22,960 Speaker 1: of Adrian Marie Brown right now and this thing she 1374 01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:27,599 Speaker 1: said about conflict. We don't actually need to try always 1375 01:19:27,600 --> 01:19:30,800 Speaker 1: to get beyond conflict. Instead, we need to try to 1376 01:19:30,840 --> 01:19:35,240 Speaker 1: engage in generative conflict so that the disagreements we have 1377 01:19:35,600 --> 01:19:39,720 Speaker 1: and we're gonna always have them, don't destroy the prospect 1378 01:19:39,920 --> 01:19:44,200 Speaker 1: of an us and the prospect of this beautiful experiment 1379 01:19:44,240 --> 01:19:57,760 Speaker 1: we're in together. Time for some actions. First, one internally, 1380 01:19:57,800 --> 01:20:02,480 Speaker 1: reflect Think about a recent time where you strongly disagreed 1381 01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:05,960 Speaker 1: with someone about a political or ideological issue, whether it 1382 01:20:06,000 --> 01:20:09,240 Speaker 1: was online or in person, Notice where you felt that 1383 01:20:09,360 --> 01:20:12,679 Speaker 1: in your body. Did you feel pressure across your forehead, 1384 01:20:12,920 --> 01:20:16,400 Speaker 1: tension in your jaw, tightness in your stomach or chest. 1385 01:20:17,280 --> 01:20:21,439 Speaker 1: These are survival responses. Your brain and body are telling 1386 01:20:21,479 --> 01:20:24,559 Speaker 1: each other that you are in danger. The next time 1387 01:20:24,600 --> 01:20:27,920 Speaker 1: you're in a situation like this, try the ninety second 1388 01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:32,880 Speaker 1: rule created by Harvard researcher doctor Joe Bolte Taylor. She 1389 01:20:33,040 --> 01:20:36,799 Speaker 1: found that it takes ninety seconds for an emotion to pass, 1390 01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:40,000 Speaker 1: So before jumping back into a debate that's getting your 1391 01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:44,040 Speaker 1: blood boiling, take ninety seconds to step out of the 1392 01:20:44,120 --> 01:20:50,400 Speaker 1: room or away from your phone, Breathe, pace around, hold, plank, position, 1393 01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:54,479 Speaker 1: whatever it takes to give you that time to move 1394 01:20:54,600 --> 01:21:00,360 Speaker 1: out of this understandable fight flight freeze response to an 1395 01:21:00,360 --> 01:21:04,880 Speaker 1: ability to better understand yourself and others. The more we 1396 01:21:04,960 --> 01:21:07,760 Speaker 1: practice this, the more we'll be able to recognize and 1397 01:21:07,840 --> 01:21:10,720 Speaker 1: reduce our own fear and threat responses towards people we 1398 01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:16,320 Speaker 1: disagree with. Next up, become more informed. We've got stuff 1399 01:21:16,360 --> 01:21:19,280 Speaker 1: for you to watch, read, and listen to. With tickling 1400 01:21:19,400 --> 01:21:24,240 Speaker 1: all the senses, check out America's Divided Mind Beyond Conflicts 1401 01:21:24,280 --> 01:21:27,639 Speaker 1: short video that shows Americans aren't as far apart as 1402 01:21:27,640 --> 01:21:29,880 Speaker 1: we think, and if you want to take a deep 1403 01:21:29,960 --> 01:21:33,200 Speaker 1: dive into their research, we've linked some of Beyond Conflicts 1404 01:21:33,200 --> 01:21:36,280 Speaker 1: reports on the psychology that drives us apart, and on 1405 01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:39,960 Speaker 1: renewing democracy. But if reading or watching aren't your thing, 1406 01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:43,840 Speaker 1: Tim recommends listening to an interview with South African leaders 1407 01:21:44,120 --> 01:21:48,479 Speaker 1: on how America can move beyond toxic polarization. You'll find 1408 01:21:48,600 --> 01:21:52,439 Speaker 1: all of these resources linked in our show notes. Finally, 1409 01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:57,759 Speaker 1: let's publicly participate. Bridging the political tension in our country 1410 01:21:57,840 --> 01:22:01,240 Speaker 1: and in our communities won't resolve itself on its own, 1411 01:22:01,720 --> 01:22:04,639 Speaker 1: and if you've got the bandwidth, take time to move 1412 01:22:04,720 --> 01:22:09,160 Speaker 1: conversations offline and invest in building real relationships with people 1413 01:22:09,160 --> 01:22:12,400 Speaker 1: across the aisle in your community. And you don't need 1414 01:22:12,439 --> 01:22:16,400 Speaker 1: to do it alone either. Check out organizations creating opportunities 1415 01:22:16,439 --> 01:22:19,680 Speaker 1: for Americans to come together and navigate our divides at 1416 01:22:19,680 --> 01:22:23,799 Speaker 1: the local level, groups like One America Movement, Civic Genius, 1417 01:22:24,200 --> 01:22:28,880 Speaker 1: Make America Dinner Again, or Living Room Conversations. Find links 1418 01:22:28,880 --> 01:22:31,880 Speaker 1: to all these groups in the show notes. If you 1419 01:22:32,000 --> 01:22:35,360 Speaker 1: take any of these actions, please brag about it online 1420 01:22:35,400 --> 01:22:39,040 Speaker 1: and use the hashtag how to citizen. Also tag our 1421 01:22:39,080 --> 01:22:42,640 Speaker 1: Instagram how to citizen. I am always online and I 1422 01:22:42,680 --> 01:22:45,280 Speaker 1: really do see your messages, so send them. You can 1423 01:22:45,320 --> 01:22:48,439 Speaker 1: also visit our website how a Citizen dot Com, which 1424 01:22:48,479 --> 01:22:53,600 Speaker 1: has all of our shows full transcripts, actions, and more. Finally, 1425 01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:57,320 Speaker 1: see this episode show notes for resources, actions and more. 1426 01:22:57,360 --> 01:23:01,720 Speaker 1: Ways to Connect a Citizen with barrettun Day is a 1427 01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:06,240 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio Podcasts and row Home Productions. Our executive 1428 01:23:06,280 --> 01:23:10,920 Speaker 1: producers are Me, barrettun Day, Thurston and Elizabeth Stewart. Our 1429 01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:14,759 Speaker 1: lead producer is Ali Graham, Our associate producer is Donia 1430 01:23:14,840 --> 01:23:18,840 Speaker 1: abdel Hamid. Alex Lewis is our managing producer, and John 1431 01:23:18,920 --> 01:23:23,080 Speaker 1: Myers is our executive editor. Our mix engineer is Justin Berger. 1432 01:23:23,920 --> 01:23:26,920 Speaker 1: Special thanks to dust Light Productions, who arranged my first 1433 01:23:26,960 --> 01:23:31,360 Speaker 1: interview with Tim. Original music by Andrew Eapen with additional 1434 01:23:31,439 --> 01:23:35,080 Speaker 1: music by Blue Dot Sessions, and our audience engagement fellows 1435 01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:39,000 Speaker 1: are Jasmine Lewis and Gabbie Rodriguez. Special thanks to Joel 1436 01:23:39,080 --> 01:23:50,960 Speaker 1: Smith from iHeartRadio and Lay Labina. Next time on How 1437 01:23:51,040 --> 01:23:56,120 Speaker 1: the Citizen. Tim gave us insight into how deep seated 1438 01:23:56,160 --> 01:23:59,080 Speaker 1: the discord and hatred of our political division has grown. 1439 01:23:59,640 --> 01:24:01,680 Speaker 1: But a lot of us are at a loss when 1440 01:24:01,720 --> 01:24:04,880 Speaker 1: it comes to figuring out our role and de escalating it. 1441 01:24:05,439 --> 01:24:07,680 Speaker 1: And while sitting down and trying to talk things out 1442 01:24:07,720 --> 01:24:10,439 Speaker 1: will work for some of us, in order to rebuild 1443 01:24:10,479 --> 01:24:13,720 Speaker 1: relationships with those we deeply disagree with, we've got to 1444 01:24:13,760 --> 01:24:16,640 Speaker 1: get created. And she said, people are so deeply in 1445 01:24:16,680 --> 01:24:20,320 Speaker 1: their camps and there's there's so much distrust that I 1446 01:24:20,360 --> 01:24:23,840 Speaker 1: think we need to remember why we enjoyed each other 1447 01:24:23,880 --> 01:24:26,960 Speaker 1: in the first place. And so she threw a parking 1448 01:24:26,960 --> 01:24:30,720 Speaker 1: lot party, and she convinced her board to rent a 1449 01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:33,839 Speaker 1: dunk tank, and the core of the parking lot party 1450 01:24:34,000 --> 01:24:39,720 Speaker 1: was dunk the deacon, Yes, right, and we can all 1451 01:24:39,720 --> 01:24:45,080 Speaker 1: come together around that. Author and facilitator Prey A. Parker 1452 01:24:45,280 --> 01:24:48,080 Speaker 1: on the art of gathering and the inventive ways we 1453 01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:58,840 Speaker 1: can practice being in community across differences. Row home Productions