1 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: Hey, what up. Welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieb. This is 2 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: All Ball, Um. I got a lot to get to. 3 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,480 Speaker 1: Ian O'Connor is my guest in this All Ball and 4 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: we'll talk about his new book, but the life in 5 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 1: times of Mike Sachowski. Speaking of Duke, I just got 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: a chance. Uh, I just got a chance to visit 7 00:00:27,160 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: Cameron into our stadium for the first time ever. And 8 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: now look full disclosure, it was Florida State. Florida State 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: is one of these teams that I've never seen a 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: team were devastated by injuries. They didn't have all five 11 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: starters because none of them had had COVID. All five 12 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: starters out with with injuries. And this is a team that, 13 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,200 Speaker 1: before the injury set in was leading the a SEC 14 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: and and beat Duke at home. Does that mean they're 15 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: the best team in the a SEC. I don't believe. So. 16 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 1: I mean they would have beaten Duke again, I'm not sure. 17 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:57,920 Speaker 1: But it's really hard to tell how you evaluate them 18 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: for the postseason based upon their health. I could evaluate 19 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: his camera in or stating which I loved. I loved 20 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: and I walked into the building and I immediately thought 21 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: about the old GALLAGHERI arena immediately because it's a slightly 22 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: bigger version UM with obviously more successful teams. It's not 23 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: as old, I don't believe. UM. I don't think it's 24 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: as intimidating as the old gallagherai BA. But I would 25 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: also point out it wasn't in a North Carolina game. 26 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't one of his games where it's 27 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: so hot that everybody's sweating in and dripping sweat and 28 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: you can't hear yourself. Think the difference is twofold with 29 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: the old guy. Now, look, it may actually not. It 30 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: probably doesn't matter now because the old Gallagher is no more. 31 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: The new Gallagher I believe is still more intimidating, is 32 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: louder uh and and is more kind of awe inspiring 33 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: when you walk when you're standing on center court. But 34 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: because it's just not whole, it's hard to ever make 35 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: the case that it's better. But the difference in the 36 00:02:05,200 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: old Gallagher IBA and Cameron indoor Stadium, I think Cameron, 37 00:02:10,040 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 1: they've obviously kept it up and redone it and it's 38 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: really The seats are all beautiful and nice, the ceiling 39 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:19,679 Speaker 1: hung uh, the steeling hung backboards are cool like, who 40 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,959 Speaker 1: has that anymore? Duke does? I think Colorado still does. 41 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: It was like the only two Power five schools that 42 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: that have that center hung, I mean the ceiling hung, backboards, 43 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 1: the stands are a little far off the court in 44 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,400 Speaker 1: the baseline. Um, it's still it gives them obviously front 45 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:40,919 Speaker 1: row seating, and it makes them likely compliant. Or as 46 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: Oklahoma State, it's you know, because it's such an old building, 47 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: they've been able to get away with and when they 48 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: redid the building, they were able to make it compliant 49 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: on different in different ways. Um. But I I feel 50 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:55,800 Speaker 1: like that second level of Oklahoma State is at a 51 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: steeper pitch and the baseline seating is much closer to 52 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: the hurt And then the old Gallagher had a flat 53 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 1: roof which made it much louder. On the other hand, 54 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: it is interesting that we went through this this pattern 55 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: of time where everybody was trying to get bigger and 56 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: better and NBA style arenas. Obviously the Bresilan Center started 57 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: that in the President Center is a great environment. Um. 58 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,040 Speaker 1: But you look at Ohouse Stay, You look at Wisconsin 59 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: the places they used to occupy and where they are now. 60 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:27,919 Speaker 1: You look at Oregon. Obviously they had to move from 61 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: Matt Court because it was basically a tinder box, but 62 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: an amazing place whereas Duke and some of this is 63 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: that it's made out of stone on the exterior has 64 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: been able to keep it in its relative same form 65 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: and it's really cool. So here's I'm gonna do before 66 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: I get to in O'Connor. Okay, of the places that 67 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: I've called games from, I'm gonna give you the five 68 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: best play coolest looking, best places that are old and 69 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: the five coolest places is by my estimation that are new. 70 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: The five places that I've been to that I think 71 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: you need to go to, right that are the the 72 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: old places. I mean, you have to go to Butler, 73 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: you have to go to Hanklefield House, not just because 74 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: of Hoosiers, uh, but because of what amazing, what a 75 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: beautiful building that is. It's a really cool building. Um. 76 00:04:24,120 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: I never felt like it was intimidating. I do like 77 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 1: the fact that they have those stands behind the hoop 78 00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,039 Speaker 1: that are elevated right that second level right behind the hoop. 79 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: Obviously at mid Court you can go all the way back. 80 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: But on a Saturday afternoon when the sun has gone 81 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: climate going through the windows at Hankle. That's a special place. 82 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: Henkel to me is probably the most aesthetically pleasing of 83 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: the old cathedrals of the sport. Uh Kansas is a 84 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: place you have to go to. It's not just was 85 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 1: a nament bolvar nasement drive, but they actually had the 86 00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: rules of the game, and the environment is incredible and 87 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: it's the old field house now that place again, they 88 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 1: have the same problem as Duke behind the basket, you know, 89 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: the students don't come close to the court because that's 90 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,120 Speaker 1: the only place that they can have wheelchair access. But 91 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: otherwise that place is perfection. And and what they've done 92 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: to redo it, you know, is really smart. They in 93 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: an effort to not have to put anything up to code, 94 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,600 Speaker 1: they've basically done everything around it to make it better. 95 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: Right the basketball facility right next door, the locker room, 96 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: all that stuff is really nice. The field house itself 97 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: is as it used to be or as close as 98 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: it used to be, and it's spectacular. And the fact 99 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: that I saw Kentucky put them down twenty a half 100 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: in what was an incredible environment this year even more, 101 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: I've seen Sandy State beat him. The only place the 102 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: thing I haven't done is we didn't beat him, but 103 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: but but Kansas is really special. So Butler Kansas obviously 104 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: Duke um the Palsto would be a place that they 105 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: redid it. I don't know. This has got to be 106 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: going back fifteen years ago. I thought they did a 107 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: really It also has those same kind of exposed girders 108 00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: if you will, or arches that that feels like a 109 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties building. UM. So then you have your basic 110 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 1: four and you're looking for another one. Right and in 111 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: terms of historic old arena, I would still put GALLAGHERI 112 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,599 Speaker 1: but on that list. You know, I put GALLAGHERI on 113 00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: on that list because you know, you look around the 114 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 1: Big ten and very few play in their older places. 115 00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: Illinois does, but it's been redone actually like the Illinois redo. 116 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: Everybody else seems that there's the Barn in Minnesota. Those 117 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: will be the next two. So I'll give you five 118 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: or six. I put the Barn in Minnesota as part 119 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: of that. Um. It's such a big building and you 120 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: don't realize that there's another arena, Like there's a wall 121 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: and then there's another arena on the other side. So 122 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: those would be the six. I've said five. Those are 123 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 1: six and I think you have to go to that. 124 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: They're all historically significant and the only one that's been 125 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,600 Speaker 1: redone to where it's a modernized building on the interior, 126 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 1: not just extrar bocal Mi states. So it probably cut 127 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: it off the list. It gets in under the wire 128 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: because the lower level is essentially the same layout as 129 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: it's always been and it's the same white wable floor 130 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: they've always had. Okay, so let's get to more modern buildings, 131 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: new arenas. Somebody's in The new arenas are actually quite nice, 132 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 1: right like um, And I guess Texas Tech is now 133 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 1: over it's like twenty years old or over twenty years old, right, 134 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: So that one's a that's a hard one, right, But 135 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: in Texas Tech it's always been a beautiful arena, but 136 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: now that the fans are there and the students are crazy, 137 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:41,559 Speaker 1: it becomes one. I would say this, Um, I didn't 138 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: include Washington heck D or whatever it's called now in 139 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: terms of the sponsorship that should be in the discussion, UM, 140 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: because I like that better than the amount of seats 141 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: that they added to Gallagher Ib Arena. UM. Some great 142 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: arenas that have been redone, like if I was gonna 143 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: go five other places that have been be done. I 144 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: would I would put New Mexico in the pit. And 145 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: it's not just because the pit. The way in which 146 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: they redid it and they took out seats was amazing, 147 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: really and it's still just as intimidating. They're gonna be better. 148 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: That's one that you're gonna want on your bucket list 149 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: a matter of fact. Um, Wyoming's arena, UH is really 150 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: cool since they redid it. You know, they're those old roundhouses. 151 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: They're taking in and making the seats better. They did 152 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 1: it at at Illinois as well. They did a great 153 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: job there. Um. But here's my five redone buildings that 154 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: are like brand new buildings that kind of redone on 155 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: the inside. The pit in New Mexico. UM. I love 156 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: Northwestern and what they did to Welsh Ryan that that 157 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: place is so cool. Seven thousand seats and they put 158 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: in this this excellent club level section. Like I think 159 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:56,319 Speaker 1: that one is very very cool, very well done. Um. 160 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: And then I look around the country. I'm like, okay, 161 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: so I would have to find three or uh Arizona 162 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: was has not been crazy redone. Um. They they put 163 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: in new chairs. I don't know how long it is 164 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 1: I'm starting to remember years. Um, I it's it's it's 165 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: not that unique a building, but it's an awesome building 166 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,200 Speaker 1: with great site lines and a great crowd and a 167 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: great atmosphere. I do New Mexico, I would say, uh, 168 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:29,839 Speaker 1: Arizona Northwestern. UM, I really like what Florida did to 169 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: redo their building. I know that old miss they have 170 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: a new building. That's what with This list is for 171 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: more redone buildings, So I'll put Florida on that list 172 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: as well redone buildings. UM. And then I've told you 173 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: I like what Illinois has done. Um. It's it's interesting 174 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:49,839 Speaker 1: because it still looks the same on the outside and 175 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: there's still parts of it in the upper bowl which 176 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: you're exactly the same, but everything else is changed and different. 177 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 1: And I would put Illinois on the list all right, 178 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 1: without further ado, no more arena talk for now, Uh, 179 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: I will give you a sense of what it's like 180 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 1: to walk into the doors at Cameron Indoor. At the end, 181 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: let's get to Ian O'Connor, who's authored a new biography 182 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: on Mike Sachowski. Yeah, when did the book first come? Like? 183 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 1: When did when did this the idea of it? When 184 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: did the book first come to be. You know, it 185 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: was really after my previous biography was Belichick did well, 186 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: and I actually wasn't done planning on doing another iconic 187 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: coach for my next project. But I've always been fascinated 188 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,080 Speaker 1: by Suschowsky. I was there for his greatest moment in 189 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:38,559 Speaker 1: the Spectrum in Philly when later made the shot against 190 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: Kentucky and covered that team that Hurley Hill late in 191 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: her team a little bit. And my my literary agent 192 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:51,560 Speaker 1: and publisher, actually we're more enchanted by the idea at 193 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: the start, and I really was looking maybe to do 194 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 1: something else again other than another coach biography, but uh, 195 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 1: they came to me with with the thought, and over 196 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: a few weeks I I embraced it because even though 197 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 1: I was I was looking to do something else. I 198 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: think he is a fascinating figure. I don't think there's 199 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: ever been a definitive biography on him. So I took 200 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,719 Speaker 1: on the challenge and really kind of used the same 201 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: approach I did with Belichick. The difference was Belichick actively 202 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 1: tried to block people from talking to me, and Schefski 203 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 1: did not do that, So I guess the challenge was 204 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: a little bit less daunting, but it was a challenge. Nonetheless, Um, well, 205 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: what was Mike Schefsky like when he first got to do? 206 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: Because I think this is and this is where the 207 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: Belichick like, where the Belichick disciples have gone wrong, is 208 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 1: that they they walk into buildings and they act as 209 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: Bill ax now or had they seen him as he 210 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: carries himself. But guys are very different when they first 211 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,720 Speaker 1: get a job, when they first get Mike Schefsky first 212 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: got to do. Because again, people I don't think they 213 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: totally understand and how different things were, how challenging a 214 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,320 Speaker 1: job that was, and what he was like. What was 215 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:08,839 Speaker 1: he like when he first got the job. Well, first off, Doug, 216 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: he gets there. He's a nine and seventeen Army coach. 217 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: I don't to this day understand how the Duke A. D. 218 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: Tom Butters hired him. Frankly, nobody knew him, nobody could 219 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: pronounce his name, nobody could spell his name, and he 220 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,040 Speaker 1: was nine and seventeen at Army. Bob Knight helped him 221 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: get that job. He had a lot of he had 222 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: a lot of Knights still in him. He was a 223 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 1: really really intense coach at Army, and so some of 224 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: the holdover players from the Bill Foster team that went 225 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: to the National Championship Game a couple of years earlier. 226 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 1: They were they were concerned about Schowski. They thought he 227 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: was going to be just a Bobby Knight knockoff, and 228 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:49,560 Speaker 1: Coach k tried to assure them that he wasn't Bobby Knight, 229 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: that he was his own man, and so, but no, 230 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: I do think other than he wouldn't cross the line 231 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: and certainly be physical with a player, he was a 232 00:12:58,520 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 1: guy who could degrade you, break you down verbally, and 233 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: so so that's that's he was a very defensive centric coach. 234 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: I think that helped him get the job and sort 235 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: of overcome the flaws that that he brought, or at 236 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: least the fact that people just didn't know who he was. 237 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: And I don't think the field of candidates that Duke 238 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: interviewed that year were terribly impressive, So I think that 239 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: helped him. But he was a guy very ambitious, I 240 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: would say night like to to a certain extent, and 241 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: probably very surprised that he got that job. Frankly, and 242 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: he well, what part of part of it is. And 243 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: again we have to remember when you go back to 244 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: when my schefs he got the job, there were It 245 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 1: was no bigger figure in college basketball than Bob Knight. 246 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: There wasn't. It wasn't. Now there's these basketball families and 247 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: basketball family trees, you know, and you got to Patino 248 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:59,080 Speaker 1: family tree, right, and then he got um like he 249 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: he had Schefski's family tree, and you had you know, 250 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,199 Speaker 1: the North Carolina and the Dean Smith family tree, etcetera. 251 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: When he got the job, there was one and it 252 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: wasn't just because of his persona, like my dad was, 253 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 1: what was a college coach then, but even when he 254 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: was when he was a high school coach, everyone would 255 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: go to his clinics. He his his coaching was considered 256 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: the best in basketball. And so if he picts on 257 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: the phone he calls, he got a pretty good shot. Um. 258 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: How there's these famous stories about how he was close 259 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: to losing his gig, close to not getting a second contract. 260 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: What's the reality too? Now that that is the reality, Doug. 261 00:14:45,640 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: I mean, he loses to Wagner at home, and that 262 00:14:47,760 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: was a bad Wagger team in the I believe it 263 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: was the e C A C Metro a team that's 264 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: losing to St. Francis of New York and l I 265 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: U and they go into Dorham and win that game, 266 00:14:56,800 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: and I think that probably was the low point, and 267 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: fans boosters Alum's students, faculty, they were all calling for 268 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: his head, and so there was a there was a 269 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: scene too. I have this in the book. Year two. 270 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: He loses at Princeton pretty badly, and already then he 271 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: starts being concerned that he's losing his hold on on 272 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: what was a dream job. Uh His assistant coaches were 273 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 1: looking for him after the game at Princeton couldn't find him, 274 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: and one of them, Bobby Dwyer, opened a sort of 275 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: a door to a side room and there was Hushovski 276 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: sitting alone crying. And I found that to be a 277 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: pretty profound scene. Uh. So he was very concerned he 278 00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: was going to get fired. Butters was concerned. He didn't 279 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: want to fire him after year three, but he was 280 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: thinking about it. He actually had a conversation with Bob 281 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 1: Knight about what do I do here? I'm in a 282 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: tough spot, and Knight actually told him extend him, and 283 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 1: and later on he did extend him, and Showsky I 284 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: think was more surprised than anybody on campus that he 285 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: got that extension. But Butters doubled down on what a 286 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: lot of people thought was a terrible higher and invested 287 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: another five years in Showsky, and it turned out to 288 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,280 Speaker 1: be one of the greatest decisions in the history of 289 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: major college athletics. Fox Sports Radio has the best sports 290 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: talk lineup in the nation. Catch all of our shows 291 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: at Fox sports Radio dot com and within the I 292 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app. Search f s R to listen live. 293 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 1: How did this thing? Would you know? There's there's a player, 294 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: there's a game, there's obviously a team. Well, it was 295 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: the recruiting class Alleri, Billis Henderson and a couple of 296 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: other guys, but it was it was Johnny Dawkins. I mean, 297 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: he's the player that changed everything. So he needed that 298 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: recruiting class. He struck out on Chris Mullen. That broke 299 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: his heart. He was right there to get Mullen out 300 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: of Brooklyn and lost him to St. John's. Probably if 301 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: you Askovsky today your biggest heartbreak and recruiting, he would 302 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 1: go back to Chris Mullen. So he bounces back the 303 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 1: next year and he really struck out in that entire 304 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: recruiting period. But the following year he gets this great class, 305 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 1: the number one class, in the country. But really it 306 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 1: was Dawkins the special player. He needed to compete against 307 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: special players in the a CEC, particularly around the Bend 308 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: at North Carolina. So that's what changed it. It was 309 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: just getting talent. He didn't have talent before that. He 310 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: had some in year one, but they were Bill Foster holdovers, 311 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: Gene Banks, Kenny Denard. That team was pretty good, an 312 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,640 Speaker 1: n I T team I think went seventeen and thirteen, 313 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: but then those next two years were bleak, and so 314 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 1: he's on the brink in that class. Like in the 315 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: ESPN documentary, did save him and Johnny Dawkins in particular 316 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: saved them and they just started winning some games on talent, 317 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: and so he goes from there. But there was some 318 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: some turning points and listen he Dean Smith was was 319 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: everything back then, and Mike challenged him. In fact, the 320 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: first time they ever coached against each other. There at 321 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: the end of the game, a couple of seconds left, 322 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: Carolina basically has the game one. I think they were 323 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: on the free throw line, but the game was over 324 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: and Smith went to shake Showski's hand and and Coach 325 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: k would not shake his hand. He said, Dean, the 326 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: game's not over. So that was the first time he 327 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: ever sort of made a stand against the great Dean Smith, 328 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,679 Speaker 1: and and Smith sort of recoiled. Roy Williams was on 329 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: the bench and he thought for a second, you know, 330 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: don't do that to Dean Smith your first time out 331 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: of the gate. But then Roy Williams said to himself, 332 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: you know what, He's right. The game wasn't over and 333 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: and this guy is is going to be difficult to 334 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: deal with. And that turned out to be the case 335 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 1: over time. Um, you mentioned I would say, he's I 336 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: don't know, it's It's interesting he mentioned greatest moment coaching 337 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:59,640 Speaker 1: was the spectrum. I would push back against that in that, Um, 338 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: I thought it was the upset of U and l 339 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: V was was was that? What would be that moment? 340 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:10,280 Speaker 1: But that's all part of of Latener. And then slightly 341 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: after Laten or Hurley joined Latner obviously, UM what what 342 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,600 Speaker 1: was what was Latener like in terms of the recruitment 343 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: and when he first got there, Because because again like 344 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: you look back now and and it's interesting you look 345 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 1: at the dream Team photo to somebody who doesn't know, 346 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,880 Speaker 1: like my son's talk years old, you didn't know anything 347 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: about about basketball at that time, but he does know 348 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: like Michael Jordan and Larry Bird and Charles Barkley and 349 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 1: John stacked in and then who's that guy? And so 350 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: now if you in reality, now if you were just say, 351 00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 1: like you put Christian later on the dream team but 352 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: shocked by the way. But in modern college basketball, you 353 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,120 Speaker 1: know Post, you know Post u c l a dynasty. 354 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: He's no more decorated college player, no more successful college 355 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 1: player than than Christian Latner. I do think we lose 356 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: that sometimes. What was that like from a symptoms well, 357 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: out of suburban Buffalo, he was recruited by basically everybody. 358 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: There were family members who wanted him to go to 359 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 1: Notre Dame, and he visited, had a good visit. North 360 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: Carolina was right there. If I'm not mistaken, I think 361 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: his mother loved Dean Smith, so uh, some some hearts 362 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: were broken in that in that recruitment. And but after 363 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: he visited Duke, that was the school for him. And 364 00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: right away, early on in practices, the coaches were looking 365 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: at each other like wow, like we knew he was good, 366 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: but we didn't know he was this good. And he 367 00:20:44,760 --> 00:20:49,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't back down from upperclassmen in in practice and scrimmages, 368 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 1: and so he established himself pretty much right away. I 369 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: was really at his coming out party nationally his freshman 370 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: year when he outplayed Alonzo Mourning in the n c 371 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: A Tournament to go to the final four in the 372 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: Elite eight in the Meadowlands. And that's really when the 373 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 1: rest of the country realized, Man, this kid is a freshman. 374 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 1: He just really took it to Alonzo and outplayed him 375 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 1: in an Elite eight game. And so, but from that 376 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: point forward, you're right. I always thought he was going 377 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: to be a good NBA, a very good NBA player, frankly, 378 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 1: and I was wrong. He was pretty good. I think 379 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: he made one All Star team. But I don't quite 380 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: understand why that didn't work out for him, because maybe 381 00:21:29,119 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 1: he was a little ahead of his time as a 382 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: stretch for but he could do it all. And listen, 383 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: he had so many big shots. It wasn't just the 384 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: shot in the spectrum against Kentucky, the shot to beat 385 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: Yukon in the n c A tournament, of course, And 386 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: but it's some relationship with Bobby Hurley too. He drove 387 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: him crazy. Hurly one time told me in practice that 388 00:21:50,560 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 1: later was really so abusive to him in a lot 389 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: of ways, trying to act like the tough big brother 390 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: that Bobby really didn't need. That one time in a scrimge, 391 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: he drove the lane and he saw Laterner come over 392 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: to help, and he intentionally fired the ball right in 393 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: his face, actually hit the side of his head, and 394 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: later was dazed and and her once he recovered, then 395 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: he chased Bobby out of the gym. I mean, Bobby 396 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: just ran about a four to forty to get away 397 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: from him. But that relationship was interesting because they basically 398 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: did not really like each other at all. And I 399 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: think at one point Bobby went to Showski and Hey, 400 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: you know what are you gonna step in here? And 401 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 1: Coach Kay said, you settle it yourself. You guys have 402 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: to figure this out. And I think it was interesting 403 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: Coach k strategy there to let those two guys find 404 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: a way to make it work. That relationship and the 405 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 1: final game they ever played together, the Fab five National 406 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:51,479 Speaker 1: Championship game in ninety two, at halftime after Latern had 407 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 1: a brutal first half, Bobby really for the first time, 408 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: took over the locker room at halftime, and Coach K 409 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: stepped back and let him and he lit late in 410 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 1: her up. That's really the only time Bobby ever did 411 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: that with anybody. But for a change he had the 412 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: upper hand and he fixed the problem and he got 413 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: Latner going in the second half, and then they blew 414 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: out the Fab five for the national title. So I 415 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,359 Speaker 1: thought it was just very fascinating the way coach k 416 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: stepped back and let those guys over three years together, 417 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: really just figure it out on their own. What what 418 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: was that like? Not not the win over you know, 419 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: the the year before they were run out of the gym, 420 00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: and there was a time there. Again, this is it's 421 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,439 Speaker 1: very hard for people who weren't around it and covering 422 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 1: it like you were, or studying it like I was 423 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: at the time. I was a really little kid. But 424 00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:47,399 Speaker 1: people forget that up until really when they won the 425 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: national championship. Duke was great up until a point. They 426 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: get to the final fours. They got blown out in 427 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: Johnny Dodkins teen was Seattle, right, got got blown out, 428 00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: was not competitive in the final four, and there was 429 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,680 Speaker 1: they can't beat the real teams with the real dudes. 430 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: Actually in eighty six that team got to the final 431 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 1: and had to lead on Louisville late and Showsky took 432 00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: the air out of the ball and really blew that game. 433 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: They should have won the national title. And actually that 434 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: was that was that was purpose Elison. Yes, that was 435 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: eighty six, Doug and he takes the air out of 436 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: the ball with it wasn't that big of a lead 437 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: five seven points four five six minutes left, And Billy 438 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: Packer on the air said this is a mistake, and 439 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,000 Speaker 1: boy was he right, because Duke would end up late 440 00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: in the shot clock, taking bad shots and and not 441 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: scoring and Louisville won the game. So Stowsky I they 442 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 1: knew he cost Duke a national title that year. But 443 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: you know they were the Buffalo Bills before the Buffalo Bills, 444 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:45,199 Speaker 1: and he was Marv Levy before Marv Leavy. Right, So 445 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: eighty six they lose that national title they should have won. 446 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: Eighty eight they lose in the final four. Eighty nine 447 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: I think that was the year they got dusted by 448 00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,239 Speaker 1: Seaton Hall after having a big lead on Seaton Hall 449 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,520 Speaker 1: at the final four. And ninety they get destroyed by 450 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,640 Speaker 1: Vegas in the final by thirty. And I remember being 451 00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:04,479 Speaker 1: on the plane with Vegas and Tark flying to the 452 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 1: Final four in Indianapolis, in ninety one when that team 453 00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: was probably the greatest team I've ever seen in college basketball, undefeated, 454 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: of course, and tark I was sitting next to him 455 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: for part of that flight, and he said, I have 456 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 1: nobody to cover Christian Laten. I'm really I have nobody 457 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: to cover him. And I thought he was just being 458 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,159 Speaker 1: a coach, just being overly concerned, and he thought he 459 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: knew I was going to write some of this. So 460 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: as it turned out, he was right. They had nobody 461 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: to cover Christian Latener in that game. But as you 462 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: probably recalled, the biggest shot in the history of Duke 463 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: basketball was not made by Latener, is made by Hurley. 464 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: Down five against Vegas. He steps into that three point 465 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: shot which changed everything with about about a couple of 466 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: minutes left, and if he misses that three, I think 467 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 1: UNLV wins that final four game and goes back to 468 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: back his national champs. And but he made it, and 469 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: and really that changed everything for Duke and coach k 470 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 1: It's funny that that's that's the that's that was the 471 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 1: moment that that changed everything. And again people do people 472 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: people people forget um. Then the next way, Okay, so 473 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: after you you went back to back national titles. They're 474 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: unable in early senior year to win one. Uh, but 475 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: what was what was it like trying to replace those guys? 476 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: That's like it was, I mean later four frontal fours 477 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: in four years. UM, Bobby Early a coach, his son 478 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: the all time assist leader in college basketball history, and 479 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: he had Grant Hill, who's arguably the most talented player 480 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: UM to ever put on a duke uniform. What what 481 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: was how hard was it to to not have the 482 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: vacuum after those guys left? Right Hurly's senior year, Right, 483 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: they lose to Jason Kidd and Cal in the n 484 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: c A Tournament, and that ends an era to some 485 00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: degree because Latern or Hurly and now both gone. But 486 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: then Grant Hill takes some back to the finals in 487 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 1: ninety four, they lose, and and that's when it really 488 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: when duke basketball descends into a very grim and dark 489 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: period of time. Coach k physically, emotionally, in every way, 490 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: literally and figuratively breaks down. He is having a an 491 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: emotional breakdown. He drove himself to the brink of physical exhaustion. 492 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: And so we're talking now, this is his wife steps 493 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:30,400 Speaker 1: in Mickey and basically forces him to rearrange his priorities, 494 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 1: makes him go to the doctor. He's got serious back issues. 495 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: He had surgery, and he came back too soon from 496 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: the surgery. But she really stepped in and saved him 497 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: from himself. He was destroying himself and his own career. 498 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 1: So she doesn't But how again to to to to 499 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: the common person, Like, you're just coaching a basketball team, right, 500 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: How was what? What was it that was causing him 501 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: this level of physical exhaustion. You're right, it's not digging ditches. 502 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: And I think the average person Doug would be like, 503 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: how tough is it to coach basketball? But he's staying 504 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,960 Speaker 1: up to all hours of the night. He's not sleeping 505 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: studying film, studying film. And he treated every day during 506 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 1: the season much like Belichick during the season and the 507 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,239 Speaker 1: off season, like Game seven of the World Series, and 508 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: that intensity day after day after day, season after season. 509 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,120 Speaker 1: It broke him down and he had series back issues. 510 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: He had surgery on a disc and and he came 511 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: back too quickly from that surgery. He needed to take 512 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 1: part of that season off and he didn't, or he 513 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: tried not to, And by rushing back, he just made 514 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: his physical condition worse, and he tried to fight through 515 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: it and grind through it and said, that's what I 516 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: asked my players to do, so I'm going to do 517 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: the same thing. And he just got to a point 518 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: where he looked about seventy years old. He was gray 519 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,600 Speaker 1: as coloring, was awful. He he just wasn't he couldn't 520 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: get comfortable with his back issues, he wasn't eating. He 521 00:28:57,680 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: just looked like death. A couple of his players told 522 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 1: me that he green gray. It is described in different 523 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: shades of just misery. And at one point Mickey made 524 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: a doctor's appointment, and she told him, I've never given 525 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: you an ultimatum in our marriage, in our life. I'm 526 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: giving you one. Now. You'll either be at the doctors 527 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: at two o'clock with me, or I'll know what you chose, 528 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: basketball or me. So she goes to the doctor's office 529 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 1: and she's concerned he's not going to be there, and then, well, 530 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: I guess I have to divorce him. Thankfully, his car 531 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 1: was there. He was there. So he ends up taking 532 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 1: that the rest of that season off, and that team 533 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: under Pete Goddet was was awful. And so what listen, 534 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: what's interesting about that teams, the recruiting wins on that team, right, 535 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: you had Mirickey Price was that from out here, he 536 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: was young. But he also he had Chris Collins and 537 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 1: Jeff Capel, and like I don't think people will understand, 538 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: like Jeff Cabel's dad was incredibly well respected coach, and 539 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: Chris Collins had was one of the great players in 540 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: the history of college basketball, and he's number one overall pick. 541 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: And so to get to have those two and then 542 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: not be able to coach them, and that, like you said, 543 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: that team was an abject disaster. Um it had wanted. 544 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: I hadn't probably heard him right that he couldn't help, 545 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: but he felt he had stranded his team. It drove 546 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: him crazy. And he actually had a friend sit behind 547 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,880 Speaker 1: Pete god At, his assistant who had taken over the team, 548 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: and said, will you just watch this guy and tell me. 549 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: Just come back to me and tell me what you're 550 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 1: seeing him do or not do during games. So the 551 00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: friend reported back to him, he's spending too much time 552 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,000 Speaker 1: with the referees, and I think it's distracting him. And 553 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: but what the players told me was he didn't have 554 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: that command voice that Schefsky had honed at West Point 555 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: and you could barely hear him in huddles above the 556 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: din of the crowd, and he's sweating through his shirts 557 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: and he looked like a mad professor. And he just 558 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: wasn't a leader. He was just one of those guys. 559 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: Never Pete Cardette was a brilliant assistant coach, but he 560 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: was never meant to be a head coach. Just one 561 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: of those guys. Great coordinator, not a great head coach, 562 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: not even a good head coach. He was not good 563 00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: at Army and he was really not good at Duke. 564 00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: And it's a bit of a shame because it just 565 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: wasn't his role. And in retrospect, they should have picked 566 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: one of the other assistants. I think at the time 567 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,479 Speaker 1: Bray or Amaker could have could have taken over that 568 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: team and there would have been different results. So it 569 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: drove Shovski crazy that his team was falling apart and 570 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 1: he could do nothing about it. And you're right, you look, well, 571 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: any year you look at the Duke roster and they're 572 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: all American high school Americans on the team. So yes, 573 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 1: some very good players. And there was one scene that 574 00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: I have in the book. Vince Carter was visiting. He 575 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 1: was on a recruiting trip. So he's visiting and he's 576 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: at a Duke game. I want to say it was 577 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: Duke Carolina. I could be wrong. It was an a 578 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: CEC game. So anyway, Carter is there, Chris Collins, who 579 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 1: had been struggling with an injury. He plays a little 580 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: bit in this game, this particularly game, and Dougs in 581 00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 1: the stands. You know, Doug's temper and Chris, I think 582 00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: took one shot, played eleven minutes, had been I want 583 00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 1: to say it was a foot injury. I have it 584 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: in the book. And he was fighting through that. And 585 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: after the game they lose and Doug storms into the 586 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,840 Speaker 1: locker room and Doug is ready to kill somebody. He 587 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: thinks the coaches, Pecardette, the assistances are mismanaging Chris, his son, 588 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: and it just goes crazy and Vince is sitting there 589 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 1: and Johnny Moore, who was an assistant s I D 590 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: at the time, said that a columnist who was there 591 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: and witnessed this, walked up to Johnny Moore, a Duke official, 592 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: and says, well, I guess we're not getting Vince Carter. 593 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: And they did not get Vince Carter. So but Doug 594 00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: had a temper and you're right, a great player and 595 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: hit probably the two most pressure packed free throws in 596 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: the history of this country. That people don't remember that either. 597 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: And and he blew his top in that locker room. 598 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: And Vince Carter played for North Carolina. Um, you see, 599 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 1: Florida thought they were getting Florida thought they were getting 600 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: Vince too. So okay, so then how do you get 601 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: it back? He comes back and it didn't turn immediately, um, 602 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: because you know they were they were upset by uh 603 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: By Yukon. Right. Well yeah, but let's stop there though. 604 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: That was a great team. So he did build it 605 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: back pretty quickly. That team, you could argue was his 606 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,080 Speaker 1: best team, or certainly one of his best teams, should 607 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 1: have won the national title. They almost went thirty nine 608 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: and oh they were like two plays away from being 609 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: thirty nine and o national champs. So but the program 610 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:54,000 Speaker 1: changed going into that season, and it changed really right 611 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: after he came back. So a couple of his assistant coaches, 612 00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: Quinn Snyder, Tim O'Toole, they wanted to modernize the program, 613 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: for one, with use of computers and doing different things. 614 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: I mean, Duke in some respects was a mom and 615 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: pop operation, and Quinn Snyder was really big into and 616 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: tim otool as well, like, hey, we need to modernize 617 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:21,040 Speaker 1: our recruiting, our our computer programs, and and how we 618 00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: track recruits, how we communicate with m via email, just 619 00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: things that Coach K really wasn't doing a lot of 620 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: and putting out colorful, colorful recruiting pamphlets and things of 621 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: that nature. But also, hey, let's change the way we 622 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 1: recruit and let's start going after kids who come from 623 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: non traditional Duke backgrounds. Chris CARROLLL came from one of 624 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: the toughest neighborhoods in St. Louis, and he described to 625 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,959 Speaker 1: me that neighborhood and just they had nothing his family. 626 00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,040 Speaker 1: He said, if it was raining outside, it was raining 627 00:34:56,040 --> 00:35:01,120 Speaker 1: in my home. And if we didn't have something bolted, 628 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,400 Speaker 1: it was getting stolen. Without question, a lot of crime, violence, gangs, 629 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: and Duke and Coach K came to recruit me and 630 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,959 Speaker 1: people from where I lived. They didn't go to Duke, 631 00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,640 Speaker 1: so a lot of people couldn't believe I was being 632 00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: recruited by them. So signing Chris Carroll, well, a little 633 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: bit of a sea change there. All of a sudden Duke, 634 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: and frankly, these seven coaches did talk about race. They 635 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: thought maybe the program had gotten to white. Tim O'Toole 636 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: told me on the record, we are preppies no more. 637 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: That was our approach. We're not going to be preppies anymore. 638 00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: And so you look at Duke really getting away from 639 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: a point where some of the assistants thought they were 640 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 1: too white in a in a in a sport really 641 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: largely dominated by African American athletes, and they started recruiting 642 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:52,320 Speaker 1: kids from diverse backgrounds, and you look at that didn't 643 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,719 Speaker 1: look like necessarily a traditional Duke team. So, uh, the 644 00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:02,839 Speaker 1: recruiting approach definitely changed. And so I think that's Chris 645 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:05,839 Speaker 1: Carrolwell is a forgotten but important figure in the history 646 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 1: of that program. So but the Night I team. So 647 00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: one of the things that it's funny you point that 648 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: out about recruiting, well, it's seen as non traditional Duke guys. 649 00:36:16,120 --> 00:36:18,879 Speaker 1: Jim Calhoun told me, I know he's probably told you. 650 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 1: He say, to this day, nobody in a city where 651 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: it's Duke people, in a city where Yukon stuff the suburbs, 652 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,920 Speaker 1: you'll see Duke Duke fans. They'll never see anything Yukon 653 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: except in the in the Connecticut suburbs, which I thought, 654 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:38,759 Speaker 1: I thought it was tastanding. And they lose that game, um, 655 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,600 Speaker 1: and then the J. Williams class comes in right and done, 656 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:46,839 Speaker 1: Levy and they lay lost in the sweet sixth team. 657 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,279 Speaker 1: But then you could argue that that national championship team 658 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:53,240 Speaker 1: in terms of talent was a I mean, you taught 659 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 1: five NBA starters on on your aster. That was an amazing, 660 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 1: amazing group for him to get back, not just the four, 661 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: but then to win it, you know one, what was 662 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: that like? That was everything to him. It's the first 663 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: time after his his physical and emotional breakdown that he 664 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: wins it all, and really the game devastated him. That 665 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:17,240 Speaker 1: just that that team should have won the national title. 666 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: They really gave one away there. Yukon was a very 667 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,359 Speaker 1: very good team, very well coached. So it wasn't like 668 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: they lost to a subpar opponent. But that team was 669 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: just so damn good. The only loss they had going 670 00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 1: into that game, I think Cincinnati beat them in Alaska 671 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: on a on a last second shot, right so men, Melbournelevitt, 672 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: end of the game, end of the game play, Yeah, 673 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: I believe Duke hit a shot right after the buzzer 674 00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 1: that would have won it in that game, and I 675 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:49,879 Speaker 1: had to go to the length of the court in 676 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: less than two seconds, I think, and they got a 677 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: shot off right after the buzzer and it went in. 678 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 1: So that team, So it really did hurt Coach K 679 00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 1: to lose that national championship game to Calhoun and Yukon, 680 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: but to come back and win it all. And he 681 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: loves Shane Batty. Who wouldn't Shane Batty ad because almost 682 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,720 Speaker 1: like Bill Bradley and Princeton, it was a perfect match. 683 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 1: And so you know what they had there, Jay Will 684 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,359 Speaker 1: and Batty. A it was a little bit of like 685 00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:20,280 Speaker 1: Derek Jeter and Mariano where it was it was Shane 686 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: Battier's team. He was Jeter and but Jay Will was 687 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 1: the closer, he was Mariano, and so there was some 688 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: tension between those two that year. Coach K noticed it, 689 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,480 Speaker 1: acknowledged it. I asked Shane Batty about that. He sort 690 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,440 Speaker 1: of downplayed it, but teammates told me that it was 691 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:41,359 Speaker 1: an interesting, almost a hurly lightner, not quite as conspicuous 692 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: as that push and pull with those guys and whose 693 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,239 Speaker 1: team is this? But ultimately it was Shane Battier's team. 694 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: But but they had great respect for each other's talents 695 00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:54,400 Speaker 1: and and ultimately it worked in the end. You remember 696 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:59,760 Speaker 1: that Boozer got hurt and Coach K in the regular 697 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 1: seat in late Coach K had to adjust I think 698 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: Casey Sanders is in the starting lineup and they had 699 00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: to figure out how to win without him. Then he 700 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 1: came back, and then they had to figure out in 701 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 1: the tournament, Okay, how do we handle this re entry? 702 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,479 Speaker 1: So there was a lot of coaching going on that year. 703 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: Uh and and really one of the best jobs that 704 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: Coach K did just to have to deal with the 705 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: absence of Boozer and then the re entry at a 706 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:33,840 Speaker 1: very delicate time. Um, so he recovers health wise, he 707 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: wins the National champion, goes the final four, then wins 708 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 1: the National Championship in the in in some people's minds 709 00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,880 Speaker 1: like when is it enough? Right? Well, what is his 710 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,359 Speaker 1: relationship like Mickey, what is his thoughts on how long 711 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,919 Speaker 1: he wants to just in that period of time, where 712 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: was he mentally emotional after the O one championship? Yeah, 713 00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: I think listen oh four heard him to loses again 714 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: to Yukon in the Final four. I think he was 715 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 1: engaged and really had no thoughts about stepping away. And 716 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: Mickey's always been not an associate head coach. He's really 717 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 1: been the co head coach there. She's involved in everything 718 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,359 Speaker 1: in recent years. I think she stepped away a little 719 00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: bit from that. But remember now the big thing is 720 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 1: he he gets the Team USA gig in OH five, 721 00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:25,920 Speaker 1: and there are a lot of people who thought this 722 00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: is gonna hurt Coach K at Duke. He's going to 723 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: be distracted and he can't. He can't be the overlord 724 00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:35,520 Speaker 1: of two programs as important as Duke and Team USA 725 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,319 Speaker 1: and have it not affect Duke. But as it turns out, 726 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 1: so he goes and he has a disastrous loss in 727 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,719 Speaker 1: OH six to Greece, the A grease team in the 728 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: semifinals of the World Championships in Tokyo that ran one 729 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,960 Speaker 1: play the pick and roll, and Coach K couldn't defend it. 730 00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: It was, frankly, was embarrassing. And and so that was 731 00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 1: a that was just some people understand um and and 732 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 1: it's it's it's hard to do it without, you know, 733 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,640 Speaker 1: like video, right, But Coach K had and they they 734 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 1: ran in this problem Duke. Really when they had Greg 735 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,600 Speaker 1: pollis is that they they defend and they still kind 736 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: of do it where it's a little different now. But 737 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:22,360 Speaker 1: his system really became once he got to two thousand, 738 00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,239 Speaker 1: offensively very simple right where it was he went away 739 00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: from the ninth passing game and it was a highball 740 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:34,239 Speaker 1: stream and then defensively, um, defensively, they just pressured you 741 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 1: and then they would they would try and trap you 742 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: out of ball streams. And he tried to use that 743 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: same philosophy in international competition. The problem is that it's 744 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,520 Speaker 1: a completely different game and how and the skill level 745 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:52,080 Speaker 1: of the European big band and the size and of 746 00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: the guards and the way in which they play and 747 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,800 Speaker 1: there you and nobody double teams ball screens in Europe. 748 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,360 Speaker 1: And that's the basic reason why. And he had a 749 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,400 Speaker 1: right he had to completely rethink kind of defensive philosophy 750 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 1: and how they played in international competition. Is that it 751 00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: is that a fair way of portraying it. Yeah, And 752 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: I think that the shocking thing was once Greece had 753 00:42:14,840 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: some success with with that one play Showski effort just 754 00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I think he did not It was an 755 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:28,520 Speaker 1: adjustment guy. No, he wasn't it's funny. Well, Kenny Dennard 756 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:30,400 Speaker 1: is a real character from his first team. He was 757 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,880 Speaker 1: a Bill Foster player and really didn't have much use 758 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 1: for Showski. He used to say, like, Okay, we run 759 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,400 Speaker 1: this motion offense and we're playing man to man defense. 760 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 1: How much coaching is really going on here? I always 761 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:43,520 Speaker 1: got a kick out that I said, we have we 762 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: have a read and react to the defense offense and 763 00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,000 Speaker 1: we're playing man. So what is coach k doing exactly? 764 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 1: So it was half kidding, but he was only half kidding. 765 00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:54,600 Speaker 1: But in that game, yeah, it was you go back 766 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,360 Speaker 1: and look at the tape and it was Greece was 767 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 1: the grease coach. He was stunned that he could continue 768 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 1: you to run this one play to perfection and the 769 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,360 Speaker 1: US was powerless to stop it. But Dwight Howard was 770 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,560 Speaker 1: a problem for coach k He he had Dwight Howard had. 771 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,279 Speaker 1: They had no use for each other. And so I 772 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 1: think Chris Bosh was an important player in in Beijing 773 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:20,319 Speaker 1: in that Olympic run because he just was willing to 774 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: He was a better defender against that play, and he 775 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:29,279 Speaker 1: was a player more willing to be coached by a 776 00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 1: college coach by coach k And there was a better 777 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,759 Speaker 1: connection there Dwight Howard. Schefsky yelled at him once and 778 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,000 Speaker 1: Dwight Howard had a look on his face like and 779 00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 1: this is according to Shane Battier who gave this to 780 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,080 Speaker 1: me on the record, that you can tell that Dwight 781 00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,360 Speaker 1: Howard had never been scolded like this ever before, and 782 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 1: he had a look on his face of just wasn't anger. 783 00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: It was just like, who the hell are you to 784 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: be yelling at me like this as a college coach particularly, 785 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 1: So whatever he was, I believe it was about his 786 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,400 Speaker 1: lack of defense on the pick and roll play. He 787 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: didn't perform it to any greater degree of effectiveness after 788 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: being yelled at. It was his way of getting back 789 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,600 Speaker 1: at coach k And and so excuse me the same 790 00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:13,919 Speaker 1: fuck you. Basically, by the way, what's what's amazing about 791 00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: it is like that. Ultimately, that's the downfall of Dwight 792 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,479 Speaker 1: Howard when he had his own team, right is ask 793 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,200 Speaker 1: anybody as Dwight Howard was not particularly coachable and was 794 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,399 Speaker 1: terrible defending the pick and roll and couldn't adjust as 795 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,120 Speaker 1: the as the league kind of adjusted. He couldn't adjust. 796 00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: He never really developed the post game. But he was 797 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,239 Speaker 1: a bad pick and role player, and that's all the 798 00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: NBA has become. And that's why he went from being, 799 00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:43,759 Speaker 1: you know, one of the most dominant statistical big men 800 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,839 Speaker 1: in the NBA to just a guy that was just 801 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,640 Speaker 1: a part of one one one championship team. It's really 802 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:51,800 Speaker 1: you know, it's like Coach k was actually trying to 803 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 1: coach him out of something that would help him, but 804 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:56,799 Speaker 1: he didn't want to be helped. I think I think 805 00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,840 Speaker 1: coach K gave up on him, and Chris Bosh really was. 806 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,239 Speaker 1: It turned out to be a godsend and so, but yeah, 807 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: there was a lot of tension there Lebron and coach 808 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:11,839 Speaker 1: K too, and Lebron after the disaster in Athens where 809 00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 1: Larry Brown did not play him nearly enough. And I 810 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,240 Speaker 1: had a phone call from David Stern during those Olympic Games, 811 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 1: and David Stern just shredded Larry Brown on this phone 812 00:45:23,160 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 1: call for the way he was coaching that team in 813 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:26,480 Speaker 1: the middle of the Olympics. I was in gymnastics i 814 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,600 Speaker 1: think at the time, and he said, Lebron James is 815 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,279 Speaker 1: already the best player in the world. He's playing like 816 00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 1: ten minutes a game, What the hell is going on? 817 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,000 Speaker 1: And what Lebron held was Lebron and twenty he was 818 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:42,840 Speaker 1: in nineteen twenty in two thousand four. So uh anyway, 819 00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,360 Speaker 1: So so now coach k takes over Popovich. Is is 820 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,359 Speaker 1: really piste off that he didn't get the gig? And 821 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:52,440 Speaker 1: Popovitch loses it in part because he was He was 822 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 1: on that staff and in Athens in two thousand and 823 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 1: four with Larry Brown. So anybody, anybody is a part 824 00:45:58,080 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 1: of it, they want they want him gone. It was 825 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: so and and and if I remember two was a 826 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 1: mess too, right George Carl Yeah, it was a mess too. 827 00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,400 Speaker 1: And it was a mess not just because of but 828 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 1: how they guys hailed themselves and they were seen as arrogant. 829 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 1: And yeah, USA basketball was a mess. And Jerry Colangelo 830 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,440 Speaker 1: made the choice and it was down to Popovich and 831 00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,480 Speaker 1: coach Kay believe it or not, in the meeting in 832 00:46:24,520 --> 00:46:27,439 Speaker 1: the when they were discussing options. And what he did 833 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:31,759 Speaker 1: was Jerry Colangelo invited all the top names in the 834 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,000 Speaker 1: world of basketball to a meeting in Chicago, Michael Jordan's, 835 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 1: Chris Mullen, He invited everybody. I think John Thompson, Pat Riley, 836 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,319 Speaker 1: Larry Bird, and not everybody could make it, but a 837 00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:44,359 Speaker 1: lot of them did. Jerry West was there and they 838 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,280 Speaker 1: discussed players and coaches and and he put some names 839 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,800 Speaker 1: on a board and they talked about those candidates openly, 840 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,799 Speaker 1: and Dean Smith, of all people, said, there's only one 841 00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,040 Speaker 1: college coach you have on that board who can get 842 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,919 Speaker 1: this thing done, and that's Coach K. And I think 843 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,439 Speaker 1: Michael Jordan and North Carolina line of guy. Of course, 844 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,200 Speaker 1: he backed it up. So Coach K gets the nod 845 00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:10,879 Speaker 1: over Popovich, and then he has this disastrous loss with 846 00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,440 Speaker 1: Lebron in OH six in Tokyo and the World Championships. 847 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,440 Speaker 1: So now Lebron James is wondering should I trust this 848 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,400 Speaker 1: guy going forward? And Coach K had to do a 849 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,480 Speaker 1: lot of work in that relationship, a lot of work. 850 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:26,880 Speaker 1: Doug and I have a scene in the book before Beijing, 851 00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,440 Speaker 1: Lebron's in a meeting, and before the meeting started, Coach 852 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,400 Speaker 1: K had asked his leaders Lebron, Kobe d Wade and 853 00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,960 Speaker 1: Jason Kidd to say something. I need you guys to 854 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:39,759 Speaker 1: say something in this meeting. This is a big meeting. 855 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:42,600 Speaker 1: He's gonna set the tone for the whole thing, and 856 00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,160 Speaker 1: the other guy said something spoke up. Lebron didn't. So 857 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 1: the meetings going forty five minutes long, and I have 858 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,120 Speaker 1: a couple of people in the room sort of detailing 859 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,720 Speaker 1: the attention that's growing in the room because Lebron hasn't 860 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,799 Speaker 1: said a word, and Coach K is clearly extending the 861 00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:02,040 Speaker 1: meeting just so Lebron would finally speak. He later that 862 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,400 Speaker 1: night at dinner told people I thought that m F 863 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,000 Speaker 1: was not gonna say anything, and I would have been 864 00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,600 Speaker 1: so piste off. So finally it was like somebody described 865 00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,440 Speaker 1: it to me who was sitting there. There was a 866 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,800 Speaker 1: power struggle going on. You could feel it. Should Lebron 867 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,240 Speaker 1: James basically endorsed Coach K, Should he give him his trust, 868 00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,359 Speaker 1: should he buy in and talk in this meeting after 869 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,719 Speaker 1: promising him he would, or should he hold back and 870 00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:31,600 Speaker 1: screw him? So finally at the end, Lebron speaks up. 871 00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:34,759 Speaker 1: He was very eloquent. He talks about, you know, we 872 00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,440 Speaker 1: have no excuses. How many times as NBA players have 873 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,200 Speaker 1: we said I wish Jason Kidd was on my team. 874 00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,759 Speaker 1: I wish I won't say Dwight Howard. He might have 875 00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,239 Speaker 1: said Dwight Howard's name, by the way, But I wish 876 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,680 Speaker 1: I had Kobe Bryant as my teammate. I wish I 877 00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:53,640 Speaker 1: had this guy, that guy will. They're all in this room, 878 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:56,000 Speaker 1: so we have no excuses. We have to win the 879 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,839 Speaker 1: gold medal and said a few more things, and then 880 00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,880 Speaker 1: he stopped and Coach K looked around the room and 881 00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:03,640 Speaker 1: he said, amen, brother, and that was the end of 882 00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,800 Speaker 1: the meeting. So, uh, that was That was a moment 883 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:08,759 Speaker 1: that they had. And there was there was a time 884 00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,120 Speaker 1: when Coach K got on him about when I'm talking 885 00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:12,680 Speaker 1: to you, I need your eyes. We need to have 886 00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:15,520 Speaker 1: eye contact. You can't turn away from me. Two players 887 00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,040 Speaker 1: see that. That's bad. Another moment, they're on a bus 888 00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:20,640 Speaker 1: going to a shoot around. I think this is pretty 889 00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:24,480 Speaker 1: early in the Beijing Games, and Lebron is openly complaining 890 00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:28,879 Speaker 1: about the necessity this shoot around on the bus, and 891 00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:31,600 Speaker 1: as soon as the bus rides over, Coach K pulled 892 00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,480 Speaker 1: them aside to say, we can't have that. You have 893 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,799 Speaker 1: to trust me that I'm not gonna do anything that's 894 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:38,920 Speaker 1: going to hurt our chances to win the gold medal. 895 00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,439 Speaker 1: I need that trust. So you had this going back 896 00:49:42,480 --> 00:49:45,560 Speaker 1: and forth and Doug one last thing on that point. 897 00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:48,120 Speaker 1: There's a scene in the in the in the book 898 00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,799 Speaker 1: after their last or during their last pre LIMB game 899 00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 1: in Shanghai. It was against Australia and Kobe had started 900 00:49:55,600 --> 00:50:00,960 Speaker 1: taking some Lakers shots, some non team centric shots, and 901 00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:04,719 Speaker 1: players started grumbling about it. So in the Australia game, 902 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:06,359 Speaker 1: I went back and watched the tape. They're not many. 903 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:08,840 Speaker 1: There's only like two that you're like, yeah, you shouldn't 904 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:13,480 Speaker 1: have that. That was a bullshit shot. And Lepron at 905 00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,799 Speaker 1: some point in the game walks by Coach K and 906 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:21,799 Speaker 1: he says, your coach, you better fix that mother, And 907 00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:25,200 Speaker 1: so Nowski is thinking, now I have to confront Kobe Bryant. 908 00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:27,520 Speaker 1: I do not want to do this, but he had 909 00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:31,439 Speaker 1: no choice. Lebron is now holding him accountable, and so 910 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:36,480 Speaker 1: he has to hold Kobe accountable. The next day, Coach 911 00:50:36,520 --> 00:50:37,799 Speaker 1: K doesn't want to do it, but he goes up 912 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,000 Speaker 1: to Kobe says he got a minute, and I think 913 00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,000 Speaker 1: they're about to head to Beijing. So he pulls him 914 00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:45,000 Speaker 1: into a room and Coach K breaks out a laptop 915 00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:46,719 Speaker 1: and he says, I just want to show you some 916 00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,719 Speaker 1: shots you've taken recently. And he I don't know, half 917 00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,560 Speaker 1: a dozen shots and he told them these are bullshit shots. 918 00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:54,880 Speaker 1: You can't take these shots. You could do this with 919 00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,600 Speaker 1: the Lakers, but not when you have Lebron as your 920 00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,640 Speaker 1: teammate and Carmelo and he's adjacent. Kidd just can't take 921 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,480 Speaker 1: these shots. And Kobe looked at I mean, I'm paraphrasing 922 00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,160 Speaker 1: because I don't have the book page in front of me. 923 00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:09,319 Speaker 1: He said, okay, coach, you got it. I won't and 924 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,400 Speaker 1: that was the end of it. And he didn't. And 925 00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:14,040 Speaker 1: Kobe was great during that Olympic round and he he 926 00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,120 Speaker 1: basically bailed them out against Spain. I'm not sure they 927 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:18,720 Speaker 1: win the gold medal without Kobe Bryant what he did. People, 928 00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:25,040 Speaker 1: People forget how close that Spain game was. It's it's 929 00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,360 Speaker 1: it's people, it's it's really interesting how stories are told, 930 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,880 Speaker 1: and that that was a very very tense game. Um 931 00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,399 Speaker 1: and Kobe made some shots and they didn't. And honestly, like, 932 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:38,960 Speaker 1: it's not it wasn't that thing of beauty. In terms 933 00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:43,839 Speaker 1: of actual offensive coaching, it was. Spain was probably better 934 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,359 Speaker 1: coached offensively and ran a better system, but just here 935 00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:51,200 Speaker 1: force of kind of will of collective defensive intensity and 936 00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,680 Speaker 1: enough Kobe Bryant shot making, which I don't know how 937 00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,800 Speaker 1: you feel having now research sitting and written this, written 938 00:51:57,840 --> 00:51:59,840 Speaker 1: this book, but I can tell you from a basketball 939 00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:03,839 Speaker 1: or affected that's how coach k has thought of as 940 00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:07,239 Speaker 1: a basketball coach now is he gets his kids or 941 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:11,719 Speaker 1: team to play harder than anybody else could get that 942 00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:14,520 Speaker 1: group to play, and then he gives you a little 943 00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:18,120 Speaker 1: bit more freedom offensively because you're playing. I can live 944 00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,240 Speaker 1: with some of those shots if you give me everything 945 00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:24,319 Speaker 1: you have on defense within reason, right, And that's that's 946 00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,960 Speaker 1: how they won that game, right, And just look at 947 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,160 Speaker 1: the way he coach Bobby Hurley gave him so much 948 00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,760 Speaker 1: offensive freedom at the point, and he wanted that freedom 949 00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:34,560 Speaker 1: from Bob Knight in Army and never got. I'm not 950 00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,680 Speaker 1: saying Mike was nearly the player Bobby Hurley was, but 951 00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:40,960 Speaker 1: he got no freedom from night to shoot, and and 952 00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,960 Speaker 1: he did. He did tell Bobby, listen, I'm giving you 953 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,680 Speaker 1: the green light to be creative offensively. As long as 954 00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:51,239 Speaker 1: you play defense, you have that freedom. I will give 955 00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,800 Speaker 1: that to you. And you know, it's interesting, Doug and 956 00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,759 Speaker 1: talking to a lot of coaches who competed against Mike 957 00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:59,440 Speaker 1: and Pete Gillen's on record in the book saying this, 958 00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:02,200 Speaker 1: and some at it anonymously that when you look at 959 00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,920 Speaker 1: him offensively, you're just never saying, I need that play 960 00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,160 Speaker 1: for for my program, I need that offensive set. So 961 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:10,880 Speaker 1: his weakness is the offensive side of the ball and 962 00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:14,320 Speaker 1: getting his best player a shot in a big moment 963 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:16,600 Speaker 1: in a big game. So some coaches talked about the 964 00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:18,920 Speaker 1: Elite eight loss to Michigan State with the Zion r 965 00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:21,000 Speaker 1: J Barrett team a little too much r J at 966 00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:23,320 Speaker 1: the end of that game and not enough Zion getting 967 00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,480 Speaker 1: getting him the ball in position to make a big play. 968 00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,400 Speaker 1: And it's funny because here's the guy who drew up 969 00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,240 Speaker 1: probably the greatest play in the history of the sport 970 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:33,560 Speaker 1: at the end of the game, right to late No 971 00:53:33,760 --> 00:53:37,560 Speaker 1: into And yet his weakness is he really isn't good 972 00:53:37,560 --> 00:53:41,360 Speaker 1: at that, and his his strengths are so profoundly good 973 00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:45,719 Speaker 1: and in terms of motivating players, and he's the Vince 974 00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:49,719 Speaker 1: Lombardi like motivator that it just covers the weakness and 975 00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,920 Speaker 1: it makes it almost irrelevant. Um, how close did he 976 00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:56,120 Speaker 1: come to take in the Lakers job. I think he 977 00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,120 Speaker 1: came pretty close. Kobe wanted him to take it. If 978 00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,120 Speaker 1: Kobe play college basketball, he was going to play at 979 00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,840 Speaker 1: Duke for for coach k and so it was appealing. 980 00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:06,960 Speaker 1: I think at the end of the day, he ended 981 00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:08,719 Speaker 1: up getting the best of both worlds. He stayed at 982 00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:12,600 Speaker 1: Duke and where you have more control over winning because 983 00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,719 Speaker 1: when you win a national title, a championship, you don't 984 00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:17,600 Speaker 1: get penalized like you do in the NBA, where you 985 00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:20,800 Speaker 1: pick last. In college, you pick first. The high school 986 00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,280 Speaker 1: Americans want to play for the national championship program. So 987 00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:26,799 Speaker 1: I think he realized it the staying at Duke gave 988 00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,920 Speaker 1: him a better chance to win titles. But then he 989 00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:33,480 Speaker 1: then he got to coach the best NBA players in 990 00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:35,880 Speaker 1: the world at the Olympics. So he ended up getting 991 00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:40,399 Speaker 1: his Kke fix. Yeah, got that, got that fix. That's 992 00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,480 Speaker 1: uh that that's that's fascinating. I can I make a 993 00:54:44,520 --> 00:54:47,200 Speaker 1: quick point about how how that oh eight changed him 994 00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,360 Speaker 1: at Okay. So he comes back from Beijing, he wins 995 00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:54,279 Speaker 1: and and listen, it was dicey at the end of that. 996 00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:59,200 Speaker 1: It's interesting that he coached forty two years at Duke 997 00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,719 Speaker 1: and he at his most devastating defeat was not as 998 00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:04,719 Speaker 1: the Duke coach it was as the team USA coach 999 00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,600 Speaker 1: against Greece in the World semis and OH six by 1000 00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,120 Speaker 1: far the most devastating defeat he ever had and the 1001 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,279 Speaker 1: most pressure he ever felt in a game. Was not 1002 00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:15,000 Speaker 1: a duke. It was against Spain in O eight in 1003 00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:16,920 Speaker 1: the gold medal. Find out the end of that game. 1004 00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:22,040 Speaker 1: But what happened was after coaching Lebron and Kobe and others, 1005 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:24,759 Speaker 1: he comes back and that he said that that's what 1006 00:55:24,800 --> 00:55:26,560 Speaker 1: I want to do when I'm a duke the rest 1007 00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:28,440 Speaker 1: of my time here. I want to coach the best players. 1008 00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:32,160 Speaker 1: So he embraces the one and done era of college basketball, 1009 00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:34,080 Speaker 1: which is something those of us sitting there in ninety 1010 00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:36,640 Speaker 1: two and never thought he would do. And he goes 1011 00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:40,120 Speaker 1: after John Wall, he loses him to Kentucky. He gets 1012 00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:43,560 Speaker 1: Kyrie Irving, Austin Rivers. People forget he was considered a 1013 00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:45,880 Speaker 1: slam dunk, one and done player coming out of high school, 1014 00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:47,640 Speaker 1: even more so than Kyrie Irving. Believe it or not, 1015 00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,839 Speaker 1: they get him, they get Jabari Parker, and then they 1016 00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,120 Speaker 1: win a national title in fifteen with a one and 1017 00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:57,279 Speaker 1: done team. So the Olympics really impacted the way he 1018 00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,640 Speaker 1: coached that duke program. Going for it. Well tell you though, 1019 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:04,200 Speaker 1: the two thousand ten national championship to me is his 1020 00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:08,200 Speaker 1: grace accomplishment, and and and and the reason is he 1021 00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:11,920 Speaker 1: changed mid stream, right. It was towards the middle to 1022 00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:15,040 Speaker 1: end of the a SEC where he started using Brian Zubeck, 1023 00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,680 Speaker 1: and they changed how they played defensively, and they pressured 1024 00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:23,160 Speaker 1: far less, and they were the best rebounding team in 1025 00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:25,719 Speaker 1: the country and they would get offensive rebounds and kicking 1026 00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:29,640 Speaker 1: out and shoot threes. So he he did show coaching 1027 00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:33,720 Speaker 1: versatility in two thousand and ten, which is remarkable, which 1028 00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:37,799 Speaker 1: brings us to his point guard was John Shire? Right? Um? 1029 00:56:37,840 --> 00:56:40,920 Speaker 1: I do think that how he decided upon John Shire 1030 00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:45,239 Speaker 1: becoming the head coach is interesting. Obviously, everybody's read the 1031 00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,560 Speaker 1: excerpts where he had a conversation with with Tommy Amaker. 1032 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:53,440 Speaker 1: Why would Americer be? Was Amaker the second choice? I mean, 1033 00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,440 Speaker 1: there's so many other choices. Bray maybe a little bit 1034 00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,160 Speaker 1: too old. Plus it did in play a duke woe Joe. 1035 00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:04,080 Speaker 1: I just lost job, right, Chris Collins kind of the 1036 00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,040 Speaker 1: shine was a little bit off the start Northwestern. But 1037 00:57:07,280 --> 00:57:10,200 Speaker 1: what why was Americer in the pecking order? Was it 1038 00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,440 Speaker 1: shied one amerker too. Was it Shire one? And everybody 1039 00:57:13,440 --> 00:57:17,160 Speaker 1: else was what was too? That's the problem, Doug. The 1040 00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:20,960 Speaker 1: university's pecking order was americer one, Shire too. The Sachowski 1041 00:57:21,040 --> 00:57:25,400 Speaker 1: pecking order was Shire one americer two. So Duke offered 1042 00:57:25,440 --> 00:57:29,080 Speaker 1: the job, the Tommy Amager and coach K effectively talked 1043 00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,080 Speaker 1: him out of taking it. Explained that, hey, if you 1044 00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:33,560 Speaker 1: come aboard for a year as successor in waiting and 1045 00:57:33,600 --> 00:57:36,600 Speaker 1: you leave Harvard, it's it's. First of all, I have 1046 00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:40,920 Speaker 1: to demote Nolan Smith back to director of basketball operations 1047 00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:44,680 Speaker 1: after I promoted him two months ago whatever it was 1048 00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:47,320 Speaker 1: after Nate James left to be the head coach at 1049 00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:49,920 Speaker 1: Austin p So now I have to demote a guy 1050 00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:54,360 Speaker 1: just promoted. And also there's gonna be an awkward dynamic 1051 00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:56,160 Speaker 1: on the staff with you and Shire. I just don't 1052 00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,040 Speaker 1: think it would be good for Duke basketball for you 1053 00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:01,040 Speaker 1: to be the head coach. So America could have said 1054 00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:04,000 Speaker 1: to him, Doug, coach, I know you're my mentor, you 1055 00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,760 Speaker 1: raised me in the game. I'm sorry you feel that way, 1056 00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:08,240 Speaker 1: but I'm gonna see you in a couple of weeks 1057 00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:09,840 Speaker 1: while I have dinner, and I'll be the head coach 1058 00:58:09,840 --> 00:58:12,600 Speaker 1: at Duke, and you will talk about our differences, will 1059 00:58:12,640 --> 00:58:14,920 Speaker 1: work it out. He could have done that and taking 1060 00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:17,920 Speaker 1: the job, but he realized, if I go there and 1061 00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,280 Speaker 1: Mike's going to keep his office, which he is on 1062 00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:24,280 Speaker 1: the sixth floor, he's gonna be very present, it's gonna 1063 00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:27,000 Speaker 1: be weird, and it's gonna be tense. And so do 1064 00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:28,520 Speaker 1: I really want to do that. I have a great 1065 00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,320 Speaker 1: life here at Harvard, My wife has a really good job, 1066 00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:33,800 Speaker 1: and he could probably coach there for the rest of 1067 00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:38,880 Speaker 1: his life. And so he actually backed off and and 1068 00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,320 Speaker 1: didn't push it and didn't take the job. He was 1069 00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:46,200 Speaker 1: offered the job, though, Wow, why not, Johnny? It's a 1070 00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,320 Speaker 1: good question. I mean, you could certainly make a case 1071 00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,880 Speaker 1: for for Dawkins being the guy America if you look 1072 00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:54,640 Speaker 1: at his career. He's been head coach at three Division 1073 00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:57,920 Speaker 1: one programs, Seating Hall in Michigan and Harvard. He did 1074 00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,280 Speaker 1: a great job at Harvard, but they've they've looked a 1075 00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:02,040 Speaker 1: little bit too now there in fifth or sixth place 1076 00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:04,480 Speaker 1: in the IVY League, and so he probably knew he 1077 00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:07,920 Speaker 1: didn't have her juggernaut coming back. You can make a 1078 00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:15,440 Speaker 1: case for her. For Dawkins, I think that's Americer. I 1079 00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,040 Speaker 1: think the Harvard thing probably helped his cause a little bit. 1080 00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:20,320 Speaker 1: I think Duke, that matches up certainly with with the 1081 00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:24,800 Speaker 1: academic profile that they want to project. Stuck as was 1082 00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:27,680 Speaker 1: a Stanford You know, I just I guess here's here's 1083 00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:31,360 Speaker 1: here's what I'm getting to. It's interesting North Carolina. There 1084 00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:35,480 Speaker 1: wasn't really anybody in the pipeline, right and so Hubert 1085 00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:40,040 Speaker 1: is the world's greatest gentleman and a wonderful man, a 1086 00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:42,920 Speaker 1: wonderful coach. But it wasn't like there was a whole 1087 00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:46,800 Speaker 1: bunch of Carolina guys because so many Carolina the best 1088 00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:50,000 Speaker 1: Carolina players have become great NBA players, right, So they 1089 00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:54,320 Speaker 1: don't outside of Stackhouse, they're not allowed into coaching. Duke, 1090 00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:58,560 Speaker 1: you have this long list from Bobby Hurley. You know, 1091 00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,600 Speaker 1: Bobby Early is a guy that who I think you 1092 01:00:01,640 --> 01:00:04,320 Speaker 1: know before maybe this past year has seen a lot 1093 01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:07,640 Speaker 1: of success. Um and then you know, I mentioned Won't 1094 01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:10,240 Speaker 1: Joe who had seen some success, although the timing didn't 1095 01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:12,439 Speaker 1: kind of. You mentioned Jeff Cable, who was a long 1096 01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:14,440 Speaker 1: time many people thought he was going to be the 1097 01:00:14,440 --> 01:00:16,760 Speaker 1: Air parent. That's why he wasn't leaving. He hasn't been 1098 01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:19,160 Speaker 1: able to turn Pitt around. And by the way, he 1099 01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:21,440 Speaker 1: if he just stayed at Duke, he would have been 1100 01:00:21,440 --> 01:00:24,240 Speaker 1: the guy. He would have been the guy. So so 1101 01:00:24,680 --> 01:00:28,240 Speaker 1: the so the question is what how do all of 1102 01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:32,560 Speaker 1: those guys feel now and how are they going to 1103 01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,680 Speaker 1: feel in this now that they've read that or they 1104 01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:38,800 Speaker 1: probably already know that Tommy was was the guy. What 1105 01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,960 Speaker 1: is the stat state they called the brotherhood? What's the 1106 01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:45,280 Speaker 1: state of the brotherhood. I think the brotherhood was disappointed 1107 01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:48,040 Speaker 1: that that Coach K got involved to that extent and 1108 01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:52,160 Speaker 1: sort of knocked America out of the box. I got 1109 01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:53,920 Speaker 1: that sense from a lot of guys. Now, Listen, they 1110 01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:57,560 Speaker 1: all respect John Shy are quite a bit National Championship player, 1111 01:00:57,560 --> 01:00:59,560 Speaker 1: a guy who would have had an NBA career without 1112 01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:03,960 Speaker 1: the injury. And John's hey, listen, out of the gate. 1113 01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,360 Speaker 1: He signed the number one recruiting class in America, So 1114 01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:09,480 Speaker 1: it's hard to argue with that. And Coach K was 1115 01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:13,400 Speaker 1: still there and involved, but still John signed those those players, 1116 01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:18,680 Speaker 1: and I think there's there's there's disappointment, there's some feeling, 1117 01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:22,320 Speaker 1: frankly among the former some former black players. I spoke 1118 01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,320 Speaker 1: to that an African American coach who had the offer 1119 01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,560 Speaker 1: didn't didn't get the job. So there's that as well. 1120 01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:34,800 Speaker 1: Everyone respects John without question, but it's it's listen, it's 1121 01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:37,480 Speaker 1: a tough one for Amaker to swallow, and particularly now 1122 01:01:37,480 --> 01:01:39,800 Speaker 1: he's sitting there. He's fifth or six in the Ivy 1123 01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:41,840 Speaker 1: League and he could have had the Duke job. And 1124 01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,600 Speaker 1: so I did feel there were people inside the Brotherhood 1125 01:01:45,640 --> 01:01:51,080 Speaker 1: who were disappointed the way it played out. What will 1126 01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:55,360 Speaker 1: the next ten years of Coach K be? Like, you know, 1127 01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,880 Speaker 1: they they're so Bob Night trying to do TV and 1128 01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:01,080 Speaker 1: then now I know he has dementia and he went 1129 01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:06,840 Speaker 1: fishing and so many of these relationships have never been healed. Uh, 1130 01:02:06,960 --> 01:02:09,840 Speaker 1: Coach K is very very different from his mentor obviously, 1131 01:02:09,840 --> 01:02:11,760 Speaker 1: as you put out the book, their lack of relationship. 1132 01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:16,040 Speaker 1: Now we will what will Coach K post head coach 1133 01:02:16,080 --> 01:02:19,280 Speaker 1: at D be? Like, very good question, Doug. And he 1134 01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,920 Speaker 1: doesn't play golf like Roy Williams does he. I don't 1135 01:02:22,920 --> 01:02:24,880 Speaker 1: think he can play tennis much anymore. He used to 1136 01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:27,960 Speaker 1: do that. Physically, I'm not sure he's he's able to 1137 01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:32,480 Speaker 1: do that as much or at all anymore. He's not 1138 01:02:32,520 --> 01:02:35,000 Speaker 1: a big reader, so I'm not sure he'd ever read 1139 01:02:35,000 --> 01:02:36,760 Speaker 1: my book. He says he will, but he doesn't really 1140 01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:40,600 Speaker 1: read a tremendous amount. He does some gardening around his house, 1141 01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:44,120 Speaker 1: and so he'll do that. But I think he's going 1142 01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:47,000 Speaker 1: to be pretty involved in the basketball program. I really do. 1143 01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,600 Speaker 1: I think he's going to be visible. I think his 1144 01:02:49,640 --> 01:02:52,560 Speaker 1: influence will be felt particularly, and this is a big 1145 01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:55,120 Speaker 1: reason why he wanted Shire in their thirty three thirty 1146 01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:58,920 Speaker 1: four year old guy who's never coached anywhere else, raised 1147 01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:03,560 Speaker 1: and molded and created by Coach K. Coach K pushed 1148 01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:07,040 Speaker 1: him through and got him the job. So John effectively 1149 01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:12,200 Speaker 1: owes him everything. And so I think Showski will exert 1150 01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:15,280 Speaker 1: his influence over that program in the next at least 1151 01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:18,640 Speaker 1: five years. I don't know about ten. He's keeping his office. 1152 01:03:18,720 --> 01:03:20,600 Speaker 1: I think he'll show up in practice here or there. 1153 01:03:20,600 --> 01:03:24,160 Speaker 1: He'll be at games, and that'll be his thing to watch. 1154 01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:27,000 Speaker 1: I think early on, John will certainly be deferential. And 1155 01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,959 Speaker 1: but how's John gonna feel about that in three years 1156 01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,280 Speaker 1: and four years, I don't know. And if you were 1157 01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:36,320 Speaker 1: the CEO of a company, I'm sorry if you were. Yeah, 1158 01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:38,720 Speaker 1: if you just took over a company and the previous 1159 01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:41,440 Speaker 1: CEO stuck around on the board or as an advisor 1160 01:03:41,480 --> 01:03:45,200 Speaker 1: consult Would you like that? I don't know. I wouldn't. 1161 01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:49,160 Speaker 1: I would want that person to to leave. And I'm 1162 01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:52,040 Speaker 1: not saying that John Shire deep down feels that way. 1163 01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:55,520 Speaker 1: But it'll be interesting to watch how that relationship plays 1164 01:03:55,560 --> 01:03:59,000 Speaker 1: out over the next three to four years. One thing 1165 01:03:59,000 --> 01:04:02,360 Speaker 1: that will surprise you about Mike Tachevski when you read 1166 01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:07,040 Speaker 1: the book, Yes, well, the first thing I was when 1167 01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:09,520 Speaker 1: I sat behind him for the first time in the 1168 01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:11,600 Speaker 1: n c A Tournament in New Jersey when he played 1169 01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:14,400 Speaker 1: Steve Alford and that Southwest Missouri state team in the 1170 01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,240 Speaker 1: sweet six team. He is by far the most profane 1171 01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:20,040 Speaker 1: coach I've ever and listen, I cursed a lot. I 1172 01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:22,160 Speaker 1: didn't care. I thought it was entertaining. I could not 1173 01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:24,320 Speaker 1: believe what I heard for two and a half hours. 1174 01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:26,560 Speaker 1: And so everyone who has had that experience for the 1175 01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:29,920 Speaker 1: first time to sit near him, they say the same thing. No, 1176 01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:32,040 Speaker 1: I know, that's not really the context of the question 1177 01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:37,160 Speaker 1: you asked. Honestly, that actually is that's I don't I 1178 01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:41,080 Speaker 1: here's the sat hood that a lot of people have 1179 01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:43,440 Speaker 1: been bothered by that for years, that that you know 1180 01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:45,520 Speaker 1: that quite tells me about to be a saint. And 1181 01:04:45,520 --> 01:04:47,760 Speaker 1: he may be a saint, he just has the mouth 1182 01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:50,919 Speaker 1: of the sailor, right, And I think it's helped out 1183 01:04:50,920 --> 01:04:54,760 Speaker 1: by how ESPN is portrayed him. But also I also 1184 01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:57,600 Speaker 1: think one of the things that helps him is that 1185 01:04:57,680 --> 01:05:00,400 Speaker 1: the cameras at Duke one of the seal and cam 1186 01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:05,120 Speaker 1: and too there behind him, so you can't see he 1187 01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:08,080 Speaker 1: can't see what he's saying all the time. That's that's 1188 01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:10,760 Speaker 1: a very good point. Yeah, good point. Like it's a 1189 01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:14,680 Speaker 1: huge it's a huge part of how he's how he's displayed. Yes, 1190 01:05:14,720 --> 01:05:17,760 Speaker 1: you see the fiery temper, but if he's he's not 1191 01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:21,960 Speaker 1: as demonstrative because of the camera placement at Cameron door 1192 01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:25,560 Speaker 1: and that that's that's seemingly every big game, I'll give you. 1193 01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:29,000 Speaker 1: I'll give you one other thing. And you're right in 1194 01:05:29,040 --> 01:05:30,960 Speaker 1: talking to a lot of players and I asked them, 1195 01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:35,040 Speaker 1: Duke has the image, at least the perception of being 1196 01:05:35,080 --> 01:05:39,000 Speaker 1: that last shining city on a corrupt hill in major 1197 01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:43,240 Speaker 1: college sports, right, So how much does coach k really 1198 01:05:43,280 --> 01:05:45,920 Speaker 1: care about that and his image in the program's image. 1199 01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:50,520 Speaker 1: And to a man, they said, not even close to 1200 01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:53,600 Speaker 1: just winning. He just wants to win. Yeah, he cares 1201 01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:55,560 Speaker 1: about that, but and I thought it was gonna be 1202 01:05:55,560 --> 01:05:58,840 Speaker 1: like a fifty fifty split. They said, deep down that 1203 01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,360 Speaker 1: is not nearly as important to him as just finding 1204 01:06:01,400 --> 01:06:04,640 Speaker 1: a way to win that day. And in talking to 1205 01:06:04,720 --> 01:06:06,840 Speaker 1: some coaches who have been around him a long time 1206 01:06:07,120 --> 01:06:09,680 Speaker 1: in the Duke program, they said, the guy wakes up 1207 01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:13,560 Speaker 1: in a stance. He his goal every day. If he's 1208 01:06:13,600 --> 01:06:17,560 Speaker 1: dealing with Doug Gottlieb or Ian O'Connor, or his players, 1209 01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:22,280 Speaker 1: or his assistance or somebody in the administration or somebody 1210 01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:24,760 Speaker 1: or the other coach, he just wants to beat you, 1211 01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:27,600 Speaker 1: whoever that person is. He wants to finish that day 1212 01:06:27,640 --> 01:06:30,400 Speaker 1: ahead of you. That is his goal. That's his everything. 1213 01:06:31,000 --> 01:06:34,360 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's nice to have that image. How much 1214 01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:36,840 Speaker 1: of it is reality, I explore in the book, certainly, 1215 01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:40,600 Speaker 1: but he does not care about that nearly as much 1216 01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:43,160 Speaker 1: as he cares about just beating you. So you have that. 1217 01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:47,439 Speaker 1: Carlos Boozer, Stanley moving from Alaska, said, Durham is there 1218 01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:50,800 Speaker 1: the and and then the questions about Diane Williamson, which 1219 01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:53,760 Speaker 1: which will always persist. All those things are addressed in 1220 01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:57,200 Speaker 1: the book. And I talked to the compliance director Chris Kennedy. 1221 01:06:57,320 --> 01:06:59,760 Speaker 1: Duke was good enough to supply him to me, and 1222 01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:03,080 Speaker 1: I I through Lance Thomas and the Jewelry and Corey 1223 01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:07,960 Speaker 1: mcgetty ineligible that team. He played in all thirty seven 1224 01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:10,320 Speaker 1: victories that team had, And there are a lot of 1225 01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:12,760 Speaker 1: coaches who believe, well, how did coach k not lose 1226 01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:16,479 Speaker 1: those thirty seven wins? Well, then as decision was well, 1227 01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:18,520 Speaker 1: Duke had no reason to know this happened. Now, he 1228 01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:21,440 Speaker 1: didn't take that much money was two thousand dollars and 1229 01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:23,760 Speaker 1: who cares, right, But it was against the rules, so 1230 01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:27,480 Speaker 1: he was ineligible to play those thirty seven victories. And 1231 01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:30,960 Speaker 1: other programs have lost victories. And I asked Jim Beheim, 1232 01:07:31,040 --> 01:07:33,080 Speaker 1: his best friend in coaching or close to his best 1233 01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:35,360 Speaker 1: friend in coaching. I said, you lost victories over things 1234 01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:37,640 Speaker 1: like that? He said, he hemmed and hard. He didn't 1235 01:07:37,640 --> 01:07:39,680 Speaker 1: really know what to say because he's he's on the 1236 01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:42,360 Speaker 1: record talking about his good friend, but he said, yeah, 1237 01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:44,760 Speaker 1: the n c A, they could be. It's a subjective thing. 1238 01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:47,400 Speaker 1: Should you have known, should you not have known? But 1239 01:07:48,120 --> 01:07:51,120 Speaker 1: one rival coach and a CC coach who compete against 1240 01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:55,120 Speaker 1: Chefski a lot, told me that whenever something like that 1241 01:07:55,160 --> 01:07:58,360 Speaker 1: pops up the Lance Thomas thing, the mcgetty thing, a 1242 01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:01,120 Speaker 1: couple of other cases. You think to yourself, well, it 1243 01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:03,880 Speaker 1: has to be a very thorough and say investigation of 1244 01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:06,720 Speaker 1: this thing. And then somehow, some way, somebody finds a 1245 01:08:06,760 --> 01:08:10,040 Speaker 1: sinkhole and flushes it. And if that were my campus, 1246 01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:12,800 Speaker 1: my school, there'd be a five year show cause at 1247 01:08:12,840 --> 01:08:16,160 Speaker 1: the end of it. So there is that feeling, without question. 1248 01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:21,080 Speaker 1: I asked Duke about it. Do you defend this perception 1249 01:08:21,160 --> 01:08:24,320 Speaker 1: among rival schools that the n c A is always 1250 01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:26,120 Speaker 1: going to give you the benefit of the doubt. It 1251 01:08:26,120 --> 01:08:28,840 Speaker 1: doesn't give other schools because it doesn't want to investigate Duke. 1252 01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:36,240 Speaker 1: It likes having a duke, so it serves their purposes. Well, listen, 1253 01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:39,280 Speaker 1: you've been so gracious with your time. I cannot wait 1254 01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:41,800 Speaker 1: to read the book in its entirety. And I'm i also, 1255 01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:44,840 Speaker 1: I'm not a not not a vacious reader. I'm not 1256 01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:49,320 Speaker 1: I'm busy doing other things. Well, now I'll tell you 1257 01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:56,200 Speaker 1: a quick story before we go. Ju Um. I'm being 1258 01:08:56,560 --> 01:09:01,840 Speaker 1: was first July of I play at the act A 1259 01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:05,120 Speaker 1: B C D camp and I'm going to be a 1260 01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:08,400 Speaker 1: junior and Coach K pulls my dad aside and says, 1261 01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:12,479 Speaker 1: you know, Bob, look, I'd probably recruit your son if 1262 01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,000 Speaker 1: he gets it gets a little bit better. But you 1263 01:09:15,040 --> 01:09:17,440 Speaker 1: see that kid over there, and it was Steve Wodrohowski 1264 01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:19,479 Speaker 1: was a year ahead of me, and he was playing 1265 01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:21,120 Speaker 1: with He played on it with a team a bunch 1266 01:09:21,160 --> 01:09:24,160 Speaker 1: of foreigners. Everybody else played with guys from their area. 1267 01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:26,680 Speaker 1: Wojo played with it with a team that was like 1268 01:09:26,720 --> 01:09:30,080 Speaker 1: two Americans the rest of foreigners. Anyway, I gotta I got. 1269 01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:33,680 Speaker 1: I found a Polish point guard, so I got no 1270 01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:38,040 Speaker 1: room for him. But anyway, so fast forward a year 1271 01:09:38,479 --> 01:09:41,920 Speaker 1: and I grew up. Bob. Bob early was my idol 1272 01:09:41,960 --> 01:09:46,519 Speaker 1: as a kid, and uh, Jim Herrick offers me a 1273 01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:50,040 Speaker 1: scholarship at the Las Vegas Hilton on the phone. He's downstairs. 1274 01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:53,439 Speaker 1: I'm up in my room and he says, Douggie, you 1275 01:09:53,479 --> 01:09:55,120 Speaker 1: know you always want to be a bruin. My sister 1276 01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:57,880 Speaker 1: was a cheerleader. We had season tickets. I was a 1277 01:09:57,880 --> 01:10:01,599 Speaker 1: ball boy as a kid with Walt Hazard and I said, uh, actually, 1278 01:10:01,640 --> 01:10:04,120 Speaker 1: Coach Herrick, I always wanted to go to Duke, but 1279 01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:07,040 Speaker 1: they signed Woe Joe, so they got no spot. Like 1280 01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:10,640 Speaker 1: the pricking me to say that to u c l 1281 01:10:10,680 --> 01:10:12,800 Speaker 1: A's head coach, like what that was wrong with me? 1282 01:10:13,080 --> 01:10:14,960 Speaker 1: But it was really how I felt it was. That 1283 01:10:15,040 --> 01:10:17,719 Speaker 1: was the power of that program at the time, especially 1284 01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:20,160 Speaker 1: for a white point guard, Like all you ever want 1285 01:10:20,160 --> 01:10:23,240 Speaker 1: to do was be Duke's point guard. That that was that, 1286 01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:27,000 Speaker 1: that was it. And you know you wanted to slap 1287 01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:30,599 Speaker 1: the floor with both of your hands in a defensive stance, right, 1288 01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:35,280 Speaker 1: that was part of it. And yeah, and and people 1289 01:10:35,400 --> 01:10:39,360 Speaker 1: mocking them, actually is was actually respectful. It showed like 1290 01:10:39,439 --> 01:10:42,840 Speaker 1: how how well known that it was right that Duke 1291 01:10:42,920 --> 01:10:46,360 Speaker 1: fights out. It became like this, this is college basketball 1292 01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:50,080 Speaker 1: is great And because you either liked or hated Duke, 1293 01:10:50,280 --> 01:10:52,559 Speaker 1: that's it. You know. It's still to this day when 1294 01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:55,080 Speaker 1: they lose, it's like a national holiday, you know, like 1295 01:10:55,080 --> 01:10:57,479 Speaker 1: with the Dallas Cowboys lose. I remember you playing for 1296 01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:00,719 Speaker 1: Freddie Sutton at Oaklahoma State, of course, but who remind 1297 01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:02,879 Speaker 1: me who recruited you at Notre Dame. Was it McLeod 1298 01:11:02,960 --> 01:11:09,400 Speaker 1: or was yeah, yeah, McLeod, Fry McCaffrey, McCaffrey in John 1299 01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:13,040 Speaker 1: McCloud and so yeah, and McLeod always struck me as 1300 01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:17,920 Speaker 1: a gentlemanly uh professorial sort of coach. I used to 1301 01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:20,800 Speaker 1: say this, and I said, I told my teammates, I 1302 01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:22,559 Speaker 1: bet he shakes hands with his wife before he goes 1303 01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:26,360 Speaker 1: to bed. He was. He was such a like he. 1304 01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:31,080 Speaker 1: The little things that he concerned himself with I were 1305 01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:34,720 Speaker 1: all like he. He would lose his mind if you 1306 01:11:34,720 --> 01:11:37,599 Speaker 1: didn't tuck your chair in when you left a meeting, 1307 01:11:37,680 --> 01:11:40,599 Speaker 1: or he left the table. Literally he would stop everything. 1308 01:11:40,600 --> 01:11:43,759 Speaker 1: Everybody come back in. Whose chair is dead? Notre Dame. 1309 01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:46,720 Speaker 1: We took our chairs and Notre Dame were sitting in 1310 01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:49,680 Speaker 1: the front two rows. He was professor oriel. It was 1311 01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:53,240 Speaker 1: all about class and dignity. He never raised his voice. 1312 01:11:53,240 --> 01:11:54,880 Speaker 1: He tried to raise his voice once and he lost 1313 01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:58,360 Speaker 1: his voice for a week. Um he was. He wasn't. 1314 01:11:58,439 --> 01:12:03,160 Speaker 1: He was definitely a He was a fast standing cat. Uh, fastating, 1315 01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:06,639 Speaker 1: fast thinking. He was. He would have been a better coach. 1316 01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:09,040 Speaker 1: I think at a Harvard, at A he was good 1317 01:12:09,040 --> 01:12:11,560 Speaker 1: to note it. He just part of it also was 1318 01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:14,960 Speaker 1: they didn't le him take transfers. Um, I don't think 1319 01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:17,120 Speaker 1: he wanted. It was the same kind of the same 1320 01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:20,200 Speaker 1: time where you can't just recruit the suburbs. You gotta 1321 01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:22,439 Speaker 1: get into some of the cities. And I don't think 1322 01:12:22,439 --> 01:12:24,840 Speaker 1: I think he struggled with that a little bit. Um, 1323 01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:28,559 Speaker 1: but I'm me getting in trouble also hurt him there. 1324 01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:30,799 Speaker 1: But a big thing wasn't when't let it take transfers. 1325 01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:32,360 Speaker 1: And when Notre Dame got in the big East, people 1326 01:12:32,360 --> 01:12:36,160 Speaker 1: want to transfer in. And after he was fired, already 1327 01:12:36,160 --> 01:12:38,120 Speaker 1: got to take transfers. He took Chris Humphreys and the 1328 01:12:38,120 --> 01:12:44,280 Speaker 1: rest of his history. Yeah, it would say Humphreys, he's 1329 01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:49,360 Speaker 1: on the staff. Now, I I was thinking of, um, shoot, 1330 01:12:49,439 --> 01:12:53,679 Speaker 1: he transferred him from Oklahoma. Why how my figure? Anyway, Yeah, 1331 01:12:53,680 --> 01:12:56,320 Speaker 1: I remember sitting in a cloud practice at Order to Dame. 1332 01:12:57,200 --> 01:13:01,160 Speaker 1: Lafonso Ellis was on that team, and and so we're 1333 01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:02,800 Speaker 1: sitting there and I was with one other writer, it 1334 01:13:02,880 --> 01:13:05,360 Speaker 1: might have been Malcolm Moran at the time, and an 1335 01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:08,439 Speaker 1: official from Notre Dame comes running down the stairs towards 1336 01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:12,800 Speaker 1: us and he says, guys, you're not gonna believe this, 1337 01:13:12,960 --> 01:13:15,840 Speaker 1: And I am not kidding, but the word is that 1338 01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:18,600 Speaker 1: in ten minutes, Magic Johnson is going to announce that 1339 01:13:18,640 --> 01:13:22,840 Speaker 1: he has the HIV virus. So he tells McLeod and 1340 01:13:23,040 --> 01:13:27,080 Speaker 1: McLeod is finishing the practice and players are moving around 1341 01:13:27,200 --> 01:13:29,840 Speaker 1: him at mid court sort of talking and just getting 1342 01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:31,760 Speaker 1: ready for him to sort of give his end of 1343 01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:35,000 Speaker 1: practice little talk. When you could tell the very moment 1344 01:13:35,080 --> 01:13:38,120 Speaker 1: he gave them that news, they froze. I mean, it 1345 01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:40,519 Speaker 1: was just just I'll never forget that scene of those 1346 01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:44,160 Speaker 1: players freezing the very second he told them that Magic 1347 01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:48,840 Speaker 1: Johnson had HIV was about to announce it. So I 1348 01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:51,320 Speaker 1: remember where I was. I was a high school freshman 1349 01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:55,639 Speaker 1: touch in high school and John McLeod was my coach. 1350 01:13:55,680 --> 01:13:59,360 Speaker 1: I mean, Tom is my coach who played for Dick 1351 01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:02,200 Speaker 1: Harterred at Penn State. He was a hardcore coach you 1352 01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:06,160 Speaker 1: just want. But anyway, that was the thing when McLeod 1353 01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:09,120 Speaker 1: was It was so classy and his it was just 1354 01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:11,840 Speaker 1: he could get mad at you and he'd have you. 1355 01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:13,640 Speaker 1: You'd get back to your dorm and the red light 1356 01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:15,639 Speaker 1: on your phone like in a hotel, would be blinking 1357 01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:19,360 Speaker 1: and you have to go and meet with his secretary, 1358 01:14:19,479 --> 01:14:22,000 Speaker 1: and the secretary or the secretary call instead of a meeting. 1359 01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:24,360 Speaker 1: You go down. He'd offer you a water, a coffee 1360 01:14:24,439 --> 01:14:26,760 Speaker 1: or or a coke and then you talk and with 1361 01:14:26,800 --> 01:14:29,240 Speaker 1: the door closed he would get on you. But with 1362 01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:32,120 Speaker 1: the door open or in team meeting. It was he 1363 01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:34,840 Speaker 1: would only address you as Notre Dame, Notre Dame, or 1364 01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:37,680 Speaker 1: immatur Notre Dame. We're not playing defense. You would never 1365 01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:40,000 Speaker 1: call anybody out. That was just his style, and I'm 1366 01:14:40,040 --> 01:14:45,960 Speaker 1: sure it was NBA based. Good stuff. Have a have 1367 01:14:46,040 --> 01:14:51,320 Speaker 1: an incredible days and I truly appreciate your timel Yeah, 1368 01:14:51,320 --> 01:14:53,439 Speaker 1: congrats on all your success, dou and thanks for having 1369 01:14:53,439 --> 01:14:58,320 Speaker 1: me on. Appreciate it. All Right, we get back to 1370 01:14:58,320 --> 01:15:01,760 Speaker 1: the arena talk. Here the end of my discussion with 1371 01:15:01,760 --> 01:15:04,880 Speaker 1: with Ian O'Connor. Here's the thing, Okay, so if you 1372 01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:07,120 Speaker 1: have him in a duke. I found the campus to 1373 01:15:07,160 --> 01:15:11,760 Speaker 1: be beautiful. Um. I found some of it to be 1374 01:15:11,880 --> 01:15:15,040 Speaker 1: kind of North Carolina as Notre Dame, like where it's 1375 01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:17,760 Speaker 1: set aside from the rest of the city. I'm sure 1376 01:15:17,760 --> 01:15:19,920 Speaker 1: lots of private schools are that way. I know there's 1377 01:15:19,960 --> 01:15:22,400 Speaker 1: some private schools that are inside. You know, Marquette is 1378 01:15:22,600 --> 01:15:26,000 Speaker 1: inside Milwaukee. I know it's Raleigh Durham. So it's not like, 1379 01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:28,320 Speaker 1: you know, Raley' is a much bigger city than Durham, 1380 01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:30,400 Speaker 1: but it's not like it's in the city. But I've 1381 01:15:30,439 --> 01:15:33,200 Speaker 1: had it to be beautiful and when when I was. 1382 01:15:33,240 --> 01:15:37,320 Speaker 1: There was a week ago Saturday. They're playing for the state. 1383 01:15:37,520 --> 01:15:40,479 Speaker 1: The weather was nice. I walked around campus. All the 1384 01:15:40,479 --> 01:15:45,280 Speaker 1: buildings either had that same stone are exterior or they 1385 01:15:45,320 --> 01:15:48,920 Speaker 1: had some kind of glass modernization. You know. You walk 1386 01:15:49,000 --> 01:15:51,679 Speaker 1: in and like when you if there wasn't a sign 1387 01:15:51,720 --> 01:15:54,720 Speaker 1: that said Cameron Indoor Stadium, you wouldn't know it was 1388 01:15:54,760 --> 01:15:57,640 Speaker 1: Cameron Indoor Stadium. The football stadium. Cool. It's kind of 1389 01:15:58,240 --> 01:16:01,360 Speaker 1: um set off below it if you're walking up to 1390 01:16:01,479 --> 01:16:04,760 Speaker 1: that Camera Indoor sience below it to the right, just 1391 01:16:04,800 --> 01:16:12,400 Speaker 1: below where the Cameron Crazies camp in Sheshevsky Ville, and um, yeah, 1392 01:16:12,400 --> 01:16:14,720 Speaker 1: it's just kind of a regular random building and you 1393 01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:16,960 Speaker 1: walk in and you're like, wow, this is Camera Indoor 1394 01:16:17,439 --> 01:16:20,960 Speaker 1: and it does it has that small gym feel to 1395 01:16:21,040 --> 01:16:25,160 Speaker 1: it that's perfect. You know, no no boxes, it's just 1396 01:16:25,160 --> 01:16:28,559 Speaker 1: just hoop. It's it's tremendous. Now they of course have 1397 01:16:28,680 --> 01:16:32,760 Speaker 1: a basketball facility which is spectacular, and Sheshevsky's office is 1398 01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:35,960 Speaker 1: famously on the sixth floor. But that that that's a 1399 01:16:36,120 --> 01:16:39,240 Speaker 1: gym and it's great. And then they have a museum 1400 01:16:39,320 --> 01:16:42,400 Speaker 1: just off one of the half one of the baselines. 1401 01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:45,320 Speaker 1: You walk in through to uh, the entryway, and there's 1402 01:16:45,360 --> 01:16:49,280 Speaker 1: a museum with jerseys and paraphernalia from all the great players. 1403 01:16:49,280 --> 01:16:51,040 Speaker 1: Like they did a nice job of keeping it the 1404 01:16:51,080 --> 01:16:55,200 Speaker 1: way it traditionally was and then modernizing it, you know 1405 01:16:55,880 --> 01:16:59,320 Speaker 1: in the gift shop, modernizing it in the in the 1406 01:16:59,360 --> 01:17:01,160 Speaker 1: Hall of Fame, and other than that, it's it's just 1407 01:17:01,200 --> 01:17:04,040 Speaker 1: a gym. It's pretty pretty cool. And my thanks to 1408 01:17:04,040 --> 01:17:06,160 Speaker 1: the folks to Duke for showing me around, show me 1409 01:17:06,200 --> 01:17:08,880 Speaker 1: the locker room, show me an enjoyable time. It was cool. 1410 01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:11,280 Speaker 1: The one point I would point out talking about Ian 1411 01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:14,200 Speaker 1: and when you have John Shire as you're coaching, and 1412 01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:16,640 Speaker 1: maybe it helps them that Mike Schevski will still be 1413 01:17:16,680 --> 01:17:20,640 Speaker 1: there is Look, whether you think Duke gets calls or 1414 01:17:20,680 --> 01:17:24,880 Speaker 1: just gets a fair whistle on the road. The younger 1415 01:17:24,920 --> 01:17:28,639 Speaker 1: coaches one want to play faster and too usually don't 1416 01:17:28,640 --> 01:17:31,479 Speaker 1: get any calls. I'm fascinated to see what happens to 1417 01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:33,720 Speaker 1: Duke over the next five years. As right now they're 1418 01:17:33,720 --> 01:17:36,960 Speaker 1: recruiting well and the craziest show up. But five years 1419 01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:38,600 Speaker 1: from now or they still recruit that level, are the 1420 01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:41,479 Speaker 1: crazy still showing up? They still has relevant program? I 1421 01:17:41,520 --> 01:17:43,840 Speaker 1: don't answer. I don't know the answer to that, of 1422 01:17:43,880 --> 01:17:46,200 Speaker 1: course you're rooting for john Shire, but I don't. I 1423 01:17:47,040 --> 01:17:49,760 Speaker 1: don't know what it looks like. I don't know what 1424 01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:51,840 Speaker 1: it looks like. And I think it is legitimate that 1425 01:17:52,439 --> 01:17:56,120 Speaker 1: Schevski wants somebody who has been with the program over 1426 01:17:56,160 --> 01:18:00,160 Speaker 1: the last decade. You know, Amerker did a of a 1427 01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:04,200 Speaker 1: job turning around Harvard. He was helped out by the 1428 01:18:04,240 --> 01:18:07,240 Speaker 1: fact that they knew how to game the academic index. 1429 01:18:07,640 --> 01:18:10,360 Speaker 1: But they went and got better players than Harvard had 1430 01:18:10,360 --> 01:18:13,280 Speaker 1: ever gotten and there was no funny business at all. 1431 01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:17,120 Speaker 1: It's fallen on some lean times here as others have 1432 01:18:17,200 --> 01:18:19,720 Speaker 1: adjusted their recruiting, and I think the IVY League over 1433 01:18:19,720 --> 01:18:23,960 Speaker 1: the past five years because of Harvard, has really stepped 1434 01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:27,080 Speaker 1: up its game in the quality of talent during that time, 1435 01:18:27,280 --> 01:18:29,600 Speaker 1: Harvard's kind of leveled off. But that's not way you 1436 01:18:29,640 --> 01:18:31,200 Speaker 1: don't get the job. I don't get the job because 1437 01:18:32,560 --> 01:18:35,960 Speaker 1: I think Schefsky wanted new, young, fresh I think you 1438 01:18:35,960 --> 01:18:38,439 Speaker 1: would have given it to Capel, but Cabel took Pitt 1439 01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:42,599 Speaker 1: And it's a hard sale when you know he did 1440 01:18:42,600 --> 01:18:46,200 Speaker 1: well at VCU, but not as well as Shaka. He 1441 01:18:46,280 --> 01:18:48,519 Speaker 1: actually did really well at Oklahoma early on, but that 1442 01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:51,520 Speaker 1: fell apart, and it still hasn't hit yet in Pittsburgh. 1443 01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:55,680 Speaker 1: I think those are the reasons. Well listen. Thank you 1444 01:18:55,720 --> 01:18:59,080 Speaker 1: so much for downloading, for subscribing, rating than just listening, 1445 01:18:59,160 --> 01:19:01,719 Speaker 1: and sharing with friends us on Facebook or on Twitter 1446 01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:04,320 Speaker 1: and wherever you want to share. This reminded the Doug 1447 01:19:04,320 --> 01:19:06,879 Speaker 1: Gotlip Shows daily three to six Eastern could three Spacific 1448 01:19:06,880 --> 01:19:09,560 Speaker 1: on Fox Sports Radio, Fox Sports Trade dot Com, the 1449 01:19:09,600 --> 01:19:12,720 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app. I'm Doug Gottliebin. This is all 1450 01:19:12,760 --> 01:19:12,920 Speaker 1: ball