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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

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Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

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Speaker 1: to share.

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Speaker 2: She does an email at trust Me pod at gmail

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Speaker 2: dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust Me, trust Me. I'm like a swat person. I've

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Speaker 3: never lied to you.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that one person has all the answers? Don't?

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Speaker 4: Welcome to trust Me?

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Speaker 1: The podcast about cults, extreme belief and the abusive power

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Speaker 1: from two unenlightened beings who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: Ian Lola Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth speak for

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Speaker 2: yourself on the Unenlightenment Talk.

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Speaker 1: Oh really yeah, really, you're gonna you're gonna be more

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Speaker 1: enlightened than me.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I actually took acid and became one third enlightened

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Speaker 2: a couple of.

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Speaker 1: Years ago, so that's true. I'm only like one sixteenth enlightened.

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Speaker 4: Today. Our guest is Natai Joseph.

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Speaker 1: He is a former Hari Krishna monk with a master's

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Speaker 1: degree in the psychology.

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Speaker 4: Of coerci control.

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Speaker 1: This is part two of our interview with him and

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Speaker 1: say we're going to go in a sort of different

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Speaker 1: direction and we're going to discuss his work with Cheetah House,

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Speaker 1: which is an organization devoted to helping people recover from

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Speaker 1: adverse effects in response to meditation practices.

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Speaker 2: We're going to talk about how, while often beneficial, meditation

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Speaker 2: isn't necessarily always right for everyone, some of the known

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Speaker 2: potential adverse effects, and how people like Sam Harris have

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Speaker 2: contributed to the widespread perception that it's always good and

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Speaker 2: if it's not working, you're doing it wrong.

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Speaker 1: Plus, we discuss whether you can separate a historically religious

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Speaker 1: practice from the religion it was originally employed in service of,

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Speaker 1: and whether transcending the self is always a good thing. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is honestly, this is such an interesting conversation. And

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Speaker 1: I know I say this in the interview, but I

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Speaker 1: was really resistant to this kind of discussion initially because

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Speaker 1: I was a bit brainwashed about how meditation is always good. Yea,

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Speaker 1: and I still love meditation, by the way, But we'll

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Speaker 1: get into all that suit Megan.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, tell me your cultis things.

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Speaker 5: Okay, Well, this week I got two letters in the mail.

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Speaker 5: I was so excited. I did two hand written letters to.

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Speaker 2: Me, but when I opened them, they were both from

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Speaker 2: Jehovah's witnesses. Handwritten again letters telling me about their religion

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Speaker 2: and inviting me to a celebration of Jesus. So there

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Speaker 2: was a reference at the end of one of the

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Speaker 2: letters that said something along the lines of like, I

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Speaker 2: know y'all have had a bad experience with religion in

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Speaker 2: the past, but this is different. So I assume they're

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Speaker 2: talking about you and I and that's why I got

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Speaker 2: two letters.

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Speaker 1: But did only one of them say that reference that? Yes,

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Speaker 1: that is so interesting. I wonder if we're going to

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Speaker 1: get I don't know. I wonder who else it's going

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Speaker 1: to try to reach out to us, because we're such.

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Speaker 2: Like, yeah, who's going to try to you know how

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Speaker 2: George Clooney's a bachelor forever. Were like, unreligiously affiliated forever, Like,

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Speaker 2: who's going to break us?

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Speaker 4: Wait, what's the George Clooney?

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Speaker 1: What okay?

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Speaker 2: You know people are like, oh my god, George Cloinne

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Speaker 2: is going to be a bachelor forever. Who's the woman

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Speaker 2: who's finally in a tamm and like they're like, our

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Speaker 2: religion's the one, you know.

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Speaker 4: Right right? We are George Clooney, is what you're saying.

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Speaker 5: Of course we're George Clooney a Lola.

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Speaker 1: You're just as hot and successful and rich as George Clooney. Yes,

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Speaker 1: is what I'm getting from that. Yeah, wow, that's so interesting.

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Speaker 1: I mean gotta say, real glad. I took my shirt

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Speaker 1: off the internet because I don't think you can find

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Speaker 1: me anymore.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, really smart.

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Speaker 1: Although I looked for you and I couldn't find you,

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Speaker 1: so I don't know where how they found you.

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Speaker 5: I'm a little interested to know myself.

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Speaker 4: But uh yeah, sorry j Dubbs. Respect your dedication.

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Speaker 5: Maybe I'll go to the thing and you'll never see

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Speaker 5: me again.

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Speaker 4: We'll see I can't wait.

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Speaker 5: What about you? What's the cultiest thing that happened to

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Speaker 5: you this week?

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Speaker 1: This is not necessarily culty. I am just deep in

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Speaker 1: this crowdfunding campaign. You guys, I only have eight days left.

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Speaker 1: Eight days, so could really still use your help. We're

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Speaker 1: halfway there. We need some extra push, do it. Anyone

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Speaker 1: wants to support my film, which is promoting self reflection

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Speaker 1: and promoting the idea of not clinging to your ideology

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Speaker 1: for any reasons including your ambition. If you feel like

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Speaker 1: supporting that, go to bitt Ly slash Pruning film and

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Speaker 1: if you contribute any amount, I will respond back to

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Speaker 1: you and ask if you are donating through trust me,

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Speaker 1: and if you are, you can tell me your name

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Speaker 1: and we will shout you out on the podcast.

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Speaker 5: Oh I love that.

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Speaker 4: But anyway, just how to get that out of the way.

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Speaker 4: Please help me? Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: So I was just reading about a cult leader who

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Speaker 1: is arrested just this week. He calls himself the God.

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Speaker 1: The e in the is actually two threes.

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Speaker 5: It looks a lot cooler than it sounds. I'm seeing

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Speaker 5: it written down.

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Speaker 4: It looks like a cool rapper name or something.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 4: Arrested for rape and false imprisonment.

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Speaker 1: He is a thirty seven year old man arrested in Georgia.

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Speaker 1: Reportedly calls himself God and was known as nature Boy

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Speaker 1: while in Costa Rica late last year. Basically, there are

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Speaker 1: some elements here that are super interesting. On his Facebook page,

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Speaker 1: he says he works at Messiah in the Kingdom of Heaven.

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Speaker 5: That's a link an option I need to get into.

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Speaker 1: So this is a polygamous group and they also, fascinatingly

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Speaker 1: shocking believe in not bathing. That's apparently a part of

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Speaker 1: their spiritual practice, to the extent that they were barred

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Speaker 1: from a spirit air flight because of body odor after

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Speaker 1: they were deported from Costa Rica. Now, y'all, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you've ever been on a Spirit flight, but

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Speaker 1: if you're going to get banned from Spirit, you know.

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Speaker 4: That shit is real bad, because that is the worst

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Speaker 4: airline I know.

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Speaker 1: They keep getting thrown out of all of these places, Nicaragua, Panama,

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Speaker 1: Costa Rica.

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Speaker 4: And finally, oh my gosh.

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Speaker 1: Right, so they were known as Carbon Nation, and I've

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Speaker 1: been looking for someone from and also Melanation. I've been

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Speaker 1: looking for someone from this group to talk to and

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Speaker 1: have not found anyone yet. So if you guys know anyone,

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Speaker 1: please let me know. But basically, he has made everyone

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Speaker 1: turn all their money over to him, verbally mentally abusing

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Speaker 1: people and physically abusing people as well. And you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just a pretty harrowing sexual abuse, physical abuse, pretty

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Speaker 1: pretty harrowing stuff. So I am happy that he's finally

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Speaker 1: in custody because I think they also, I want to say,

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Speaker 1: they also got kicked out of Hawaii. They've just like

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Speaker 1: been fucking shit up. I mean, I don't even want

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Speaker 1: to say they. He has been fucking shit up and

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Speaker 1: like while abusing this poor group of people. Yeah, for

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Speaker 1: quite some time now, so wow, I'll see what happens

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Speaker 1: with that. But yeah, carbonation.

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Speaker 4: Man.

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Speaker 1: Fuck, it's always the multiple why wives and quotes. It's

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Speaker 1: always the fucking they have to have sex with everyone.

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Speaker 5: I know, I know why guys come on.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, those poor people, So we'll keep you updated.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at them right now. The women are so

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Speaker 2: fucking gorgeous. Not that that matters, but I know they

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Speaker 2: are there. They're all well, of course they are, I mean.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, right, but yeah, okay, all.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well are you ready for this fascinating discussion on

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Speaker 1: meditation and how it's been sold to all of us

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Speaker 1: as the perfect cure for everything.

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Speaker 5: I'm really excited. Let's do it.

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Speaker 1: Do you think like the concept of guru is inherently problematic?

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Speaker 1: Is there any world in which there can be a

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Speaker 1: healthy guru?

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Speaker 6: I mean, if you broaden the term, sure, but like

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Speaker 6: we have other words for that.

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Speaker 1: Like mentor right right, teacher?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, someone might refer to their music teacher

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Speaker 6: as a guru. That's all find and good, But like

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Speaker 6: when we're talking about spiritual gurus, I feel like, let's

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Speaker 6: not even use the trappings. If we're trying to do

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Speaker 6: it healthy?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 5: What was the reaction to your truth varied?

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Speaker 6: Obviously, Yeah, you know, some people stopped participating fully, like

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Speaker 6: I know that to be a fact. Some people, either

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Speaker 6: at that point or not too long after, disengaged. Some

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Speaker 6: stop donating, you know, some double down, get you get

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Speaker 6: this whole gamut. Of course, some some denyed what I

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Speaker 6: was saying, which is like absurd, you know. And part

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Speaker 6: of the effectiveness was people liked me, people trusted me.

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Speaker 6: I had been a sincere person in this group, and

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Speaker 6: so I'd say, yeah, the reaction was quite buried. The

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Speaker 6: way I pictured it was like when you drop some

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Speaker 6: sort of agent in a Petrie dish. It's like things

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Speaker 6: are going crazy, but you zoom out and it's like

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Speaker 6: this is irrelevant to the rest of the world. It's

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Speaker 6: still important because those are people I care about. And

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Speaker 6: I agonized over publishing that piece because I worried that

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Speaker 6: it might break some people's minds.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 6: There was a guy who was getting real into knives

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Speaker 6: at the time in the group, and I was worried

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Speaker 6: about what might happen there. I was worried about someone

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Speaker 6: committing suicide if I just like meant somehow tore their

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Speaker 6: structure down in seven thousand words, right, And so you

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Speaker 6: know none of that happened, thankfully.

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Speaker 2: Good.

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Speaker 1: Were you able to like forge new relationships in your

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Speaker 1: life or did you? Were you able to take some

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Speaker 1: of them with you?

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Speaker 6: There's some from there and then there's other connections because

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Speaker 6: I did have a more normal childhood. So I reconn

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Speaker 6: one of those friendships, which has been nice. There's Hari

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Speaker 6: Krishna's who have left or who aren't very fanatical. I

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Speaker 6: also had a policy. I didn't unfriend anyone on Facebook.

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Speaker 6: I just started publicly processing cult deconversion and I want

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Speaker 6: people unfriend themselves because they had no power.

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Speaker 3: I completely did not believe, and so it was like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: bring it.

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Speaker 6: You're not going to tell me anything I haven't heard,

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Speaker 6: but I'm saying things that you might need to hear.

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Speaker 6: And so over the years, hundreds unfriended themselves.

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Speaker 3: Wow, and some some remain. And there are people who

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Speaker 3: you know, obviously have a high tolerance.

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Speaker 6: For the challenging and at times denigration of their of

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Speaker 6: their faith and I'm cool with right.

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Speaker 1: What about just like the philosophy itself, if any thing

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Speaker 1: do you find to be valuable, and then how does

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Speaker 1: that play in in terms of some of the work

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Speaker 1: you've done as far as meditation and its adverse effects,

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Speaker 1: Like were you meditating, Like was that a part of

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Speaker 1: your lifestyle?

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Speaker 6: Mantra meditating like we were Ideally you chant.

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Speaker 3: Two hours a day.

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Speaker 6: I rarely, rarely chanted two hours a day, not something

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Speaker 6: that I found a lot of pleasure in. So it's

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Speaker 6: similar but a bit different. Also in terms of the

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Speaker 6: philosophy redeeming characteristic, I think one of the big trappings

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Speaker 6: and misunderstandings is like, no, I don't think there's anything

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Speaker 6: so unique to that, thinking that I couldn't have got

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Speaker 6: that positive elsewhere with less collateral damage, and so like,

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Speaker 6: I don't want to give it some credit, even where

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Speaker 6: there may be redeeming qualities, I don't want to give

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Speaker 6: it the character of like exclusivity.

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Speaker 1: Right right.

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Speaker 6: You know, when I think now about where some of

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Speaker 6: those things serve me, you know, one of the things

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Speaker 6: is really that ability to identify so fully with a

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Speaker 6: cause or a project or an organization, I think helps

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Speaker 6: make me a very ethical person in the work I

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Speaker 6: do now, because an organization is its own entity, and

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Speaker 6: your individual best interests are never going to fully align

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Speaker 6: with the organization's best interests.

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Speaker 3: And I think that I.

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Speaker 6: And others with a similar experience sometimes have a stronger

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Speaker 6: ability to think in the interests in the best interests

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Speaker 6: of the organization or.

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Speaker 3: Of the collective.

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Speaker 6: And that can be a problem when it's to the

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Speaker 6: neglect of oneself, but it can also be really wonderful

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Speaker 6: in advancing things that you care about and muddying the

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Speaker 6: waters less with your own kind of things. So I

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Speaker 6: find some value in unnatural degree of the ability to

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Speaker 6: kind of subordinate one's own ideas or prominence in a decision.

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Speaker 1: Fewer conflicts of interest at.

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Speaker 3: Play, So that's something positive, you know. The only things

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Speaker 3: I miss about the lifestyle is I like cooking.

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Speaker 6: And I used to, you know, plan multi day menus

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Speaker 6: for retreats and cook for multiple people a day, and

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Speaker 6: and that was fun.

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Speaker 1: But well, you can come here to cook for us.

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Speaker 5: You don't have to.

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Speaker 3: That's that's the thing about I'll do the.

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Speaker 1: Dishes, tie, just just cook us some meals.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that sounds great.

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Speaker 1: I fucking suck at cooking. Man, someone makes a meal, I'm.

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Speaker 6: Like, oh, are famous for their food? Like especially that's

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Speaker 6: that was a major recruiting tactic. Consciously in their minds.

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Speaker 1: Oh, interesting to the Sunday gathering.

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Speaker 6: Make you jump up and down and chant and dance

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Speaker 6: and you know, get some of these social effects going,

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Speaker 6: give you some philosophy, and then pump you with deep

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Speaker 6: fried food and sugar.

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Speaker 1: Oh that would work, Yeah for sure, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was curious about whether you were meditating frequently and

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Speaker 1: whether you had experienced any adverse effects of that because

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Speaker 1: of some of the work that you do and have

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Speaker 1: done in terms of talking about this subject that people

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Speaker 1: are pretty uncomfortable talking about. Myself included when my mom

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Speaker 1: first told me that you had stuff to say about

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Speaker 1: why meditation could be bad, I was like, come on,

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Speaker 1: I was like, please, there's so much evidence. You know.

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Speaker 1: It's like, I think that there is a really natural

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Speaker 1: aversive reaction to that because it's so prominent in the

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Speaker 1: culture right now and in the field of psychology. It's

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Speaker 1: everyone is advocating for meditation as the sort of cure

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Speaker 1: all for anxiety, depression and ability to focus.

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Speaker 3: You want to rely?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. Can you kind of just start us into

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Speaker 1: how did you get involved? What is Cheetahaus and how

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Speaker 1: did you get involved with it?

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Speaker 6: Well, let me first just say because you like, did

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Speaker 6: I meditate, Like, so not in any of the ways

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Speaker 6: that we typically think about it in mainstream culture.

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Speaker 3: What gave me an innate.

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Speaker 6: Interest in this work and allowed me to spot it

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Speaker 6: when when I encountered it was I came out of

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Speaker 6: a monastery having a greater familiarity with Eastern religion and

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Speaker 6: Buddhism than most people, And very quickly it was clear

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Speaker 6: to me, like, why is everyone assume that like this

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Speaker 6: is just unabashedly positive. And I understood where some of

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Speaker 6: these ideas originated, which was in the larger project of

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Speaker 6: ending reincarnation by ending desire and ending suffering and so like,

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Speaker 6: to me, that was a signal like there's other stuff

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Speaker 6: going on here, and the uncritical positivity struck me as

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Speaker 6: a religious attitude to some extent. And so even before

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Speaker 6: I met Willoughby Britton who found a cheetah house and whatnot,

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Speaker 6: I was on this since I was doing non traditional

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Speaker 6: undergrad in my late twenties at Columbia University. And it's

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Speaker 6: this kind of thing where like the word meditation comes

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Speaker 6: up and someone who's studying finance to get rich on

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Speaker 6: Wall Street is like, yeah, I really should meditate, but

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Speaker 6: I just don't and I'm like, where, how did we

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Speaker 6: get here? So when I ultimately I was in a

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Speaker 6: research workshop at a conference and everyone was kind of

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Speaker 6: sharing the different research they work on, and doctor Willoughby Brittain,

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Speaker 6: who's a Brown University stood up and mentioned what she

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Speaker 6: was working on.

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Speaker 3: I was like, Oh, there it is, someone's doing it.

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Speaker 3: Oh crap.

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Speaker 6: I had already been in my head for a few years,

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Speaker 6: and so I made an effort to connect with her.

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Speaker 3: We went out to dinner, me and me and her

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Speaker 3: and her.

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Speaker 6: Husband and talked about some of their work and they

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Speaker 6: know a lot about Hindu traditions as well.

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Speaker 3: And we've stayed in a.

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Speaker 6: Little bit of contact here and there. But several months

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Speaker 6: later I started getting more involved with Cheetah House, and

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Speaker 6: Cheetah House is basically the organization that will be started

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Speaker 6: to help in the dissemination of this information that is

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Speaker 6: very underrepresented and in the support of the people who

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Speaker 6: are living with varying degrees of debilitation from meditation and

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Speaker 6: or meditation communities.

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Speaker 1: That's awesome.

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Speaker 2: Stuff can really get in my head in a good

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Speaker 2: way and in a bad way. I have like a

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Speaker 2: I don't know the word like I can lean towards

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Speaker 2: getting obsessive about things, and so Buddhism makes so much

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Speaker 2: sense to me.

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Speaker 5: This isn't Buddhism, but it's so similar.

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Speaker 2: And so I will just get so scared by it

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Speaker 2: because I'm like, I don't want to reincarnate over and

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Speaker 2: over and over again, and like I'll read, I'll like

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Speaker 2: take like weird notes on the Tibetan Book of the Dead,

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Speaker 2: like I don't what do I do?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 5: And so it's just so.

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Speaker 2: Cool that people recognize that there's that part of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you sent this article that Harper's did Lost in

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Speaker 1: the Thought, Yeah, which was really eye opening, and I

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Speaker 1: highly recommend it to anyone who's interested in.

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Speaker 6: Learning more suicide. You know, warning for anyone, true.

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Speaker 1: True, Yes, thank you. There is one quote that I

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Speaker 1: thought summarized it in a useful way because basically she

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Speaker 1: asked a couple of different psychiatrists the interviewer what they

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Speaker 1: thought about this idea that people could suffer harmful effects

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Speaker 1: for meditation. One guy was like, no, and the other

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Speaker 1: one said this, I.

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Speaker 3: Think I know what you're gonna say.

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Speaker 1: If you deprive the brain of normal inputs through sensory

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Speaker 1: or social deprivation that can produce psychosis, he said, And

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Speaker 1: you can think of prolonged meditation as a form of deprivation.

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Speaker 1: The brain is accustomed to a certain amount of activity.

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Speaker 1: When you're sitting motionless with your eyes closed for ten

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Speaker 1: or more hours a day, he said, neurons can start

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Speaker 1: firing on their own, unprompted by external stimulation, and this

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Speaker 1: might lead to unusual phenomena, which we call psychosis. So

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Speaker 1: I want to be really really clear, meditation does not

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Speaker 1: cause psychosis. You're not going to go into psychosis. Like

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Speaker 1: for someone like me hearing this, I'm like, because I

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Speaker 1: am obsessive, I'll hear that and be like, does this

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Speaker 1: mean that I'm I'm going to have a psychotic break

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Speaker 1: because I meditated today. You know, now, this is not

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Speaker 1: a one to one. It is possible that it is

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Speaker 1: not a cure all for everyone, and might even if

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Speaker 1: you go to like do it for too long or

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Speaker 1: just like overdo it, it can have harmful effects.

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Speaker 3: But I would like to.

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Speaker 6: Add to that, so I would say it's possible that

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Speaker 6: it's not a cure all, and it's actually impossible that

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Speaker 6: it is.

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Speaker 2: Sure.

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Speaker 3: And so when we.

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Speaker 6: Move from like meditation in a Buddhist context to meditation

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Speaker 6: as an evidenced based mental health intervention, some things have

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Speaker 6: to change, and so no other evidence based and I'm

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Speaker 6: using scare quotes because there's some evidence, but the evidence

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Speaker 6: has been systematically skewed for decades. And that's some of

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Speaker 6: what Willoughby Brittain's research is balancing.

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Speaker 1: Out skewed how what do you mean skewed?

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Speaker 6: As in research designed conducted by people with either financial

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Speaker 6: or ideological commitments. So some of the early meditation research

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Speaker 6: was done by team you know, So when you introduce

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Speaker 6: this topic and you said, there's like a real natural aversion,

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Speaker 6: I would argue it's not a natural aversion, it's one

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Speaker 6: that's been cultivated our thing around meditation for years and

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Speaker 6: across the level of scientificness interesting to it that it

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Speaker 6: hasn't actually achieved. And so what other evidence based mental

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Speaker 6: health intervention do we assume.

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Speaker 3: Will work for all people if they do it right?

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Speaker 6: You know, if someone's like, oh, you know, I tried

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Speaker 6: XYZ drug, you might say, oh, well, maybe did you

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Speaker 6: try different dosage?

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Speaker 3: But you're not just going to.

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Speaker 1: Assume that like they did it wrong. Right.

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Speaker 2: It's like exercise, you know, that is it is what's

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Speaker 2: something that mental health professionals are like, you should exercise.

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Speaker 2: People get exercise addictions, people get meditation addictions where the

404
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Speaker 2: theology in their head starts to get too much. Nothing matters,

405
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Speaker 2: nothing matters, nothing matters, nothing is real.

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Speaker 6: Like yeah, but also, you know, I do want to

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Speaker 6: emphasize the natural inclination is to think about practice amount,

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Speaker 6: you know, like addiction is implying like an excessive amount.

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Speaker 6: And all of those are relevant potential factors to when

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Speaker 6: meditation does and doesn't serve someone. But one of the

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Speaker 6: really important things to remove the stigma and to help

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Speaker 6: remove the religiosity from this is to underscore that there

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Speaker 6: are some people that have no pre existing whatever you

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Speaker 6: want to ascribe it to, and it's just not a

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Speaker 6: good fit.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And so.

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Speaker 6: Because of how deeply our culture has imbibed a sense

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Speaker 6: that it is either innocuous or beneficial, it's hard to

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Speaker 6: conceive of this might not work for someone, and that

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Speaker 6: doesn't mean them or their process was broken. It's just

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Speaker 6: not everything is for everyone. There's a whole lot of

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Speaker 6: people on the planet, and historically these practices were done

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Speaker 6: by a portion of monastics in a much larger society.

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Speaker 6: It was that it was mass meditation, and there's some

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Speaker 6: really fascinating history as to how that came about related

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Speaker 6: to colonialism and cultural preservation in Buddhist countries. I'm not

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Speaker 6: an expert on that, but it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: I have been one of those people, one of those

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Speaker 1: evangelists who's like, no, no, but did you do it

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Speaker 1: the right way? And I think part of that also

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Speaker 1: came from the fact that I was introduced to meditation

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Speaker 1: via mindfulness, via Terra Brock specifically, who I really really

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Speaker 1: like her work because it's presented in a very practical way.

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Speaker 1: It's very much about just like being attuned to your

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Speaker 1: own body and your own feelings, and it's not really

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Speaker 1: about transcending the self. And I would talk to people

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Speaker 1: who were doing like TM, and it just was it

439
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Speaker 1: just felt like a totally different approach. Not that I

440
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Speaker 1: was saying like anyone who does TM is doing it wrong,

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Speaker 1: but it seemed like sometimes people would be missing the point,

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Speaker 1: or they would think that meditation was about like clearing

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Speaker 1: your mind and having no thoughts, which of course no

444
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,840
Speaker 1: one can do. And so I would be like, but

445
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 1: are you sure, are you sure you're doing it right?

446
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 1: Like it might work for you if you just do

447
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 1: it right, you know. And I think there's like some

448
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 1: validity to some of that, Like there is a certain

449
00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 1: kind of practice that can be beneficial for a lot

450
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,400
Speaker 1: of those people, but also maybe not like like.

451
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,720
Speaker 6: Therapy, you know, but there's a bunch of factors. Who

452
00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 6: are you seeing, what modality are they using, etc.

453
00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:20,400
Speaker 3: Et cetera.

454
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,760
Speaker 1: Totally, totally. I don't want to scare people.

455
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 2: I think people get that they can meditate if they want.

456
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I just want to talk about like what

457
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,199
Speaker 1: some of the adverse effects are that you guys have

458
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:33,080
Speaker 1: kind of seen in your work.

459
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 6: And I should preface it by saying, yeah, it's not

460
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 6: about scaring people. It's like this is already happens with

461
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,040
Speaker 6: some people and to advance the field as a whole.

462
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 6: While I think many people currently feel like this is antagonistic,

463
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 6: the reality is organizations are going to start getting sued

464
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,639
Speaker 6: when people get hurt, when people comit suicide, et cetera.

465
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 6: And so we're really talking about refining our application of these.

466
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 1: Tools, right right.

467
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, So it's like knowing what is a contraindication and

468
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 6: what practice. So there's already some data about different practices

469
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,639
Speaker 6: working better for different things. But then on the flip

470
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,560
Speaker 6: side of that, a big problem is if and when

471
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 6: someone has some difficulty how they're responded to and right now,

472
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 6: that often invalidates them, encourages them to keep going and

473
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:31,439
Speaker 6: makes problems worse, spiritualizes their problem. But in terms of

474
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:36,120
Speaker 6: specific difficulties, I never feel like I list these out

475
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 6: too well, but they really run the entire gamut from

476
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 6: let's say, kind of more overt things like maybe some

477
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 6: seeing lights, like seeing flashing lights, maybe auditory hallucinations, involuntary

478
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 6: movements some people experience. But I'm getting ahead of myself,

479
00:23:56,040 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 6: you know, anxiety, depression, That kind of standard stuff can

480
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 6: end up increasing or improving for a time, but then

481
00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 6: you've reached the point of diminishing returns. And so partly

482
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 6: we're here to be like, hey, pick it up and

483
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 6: put it down when it works, and remind people that,

484
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 6: like you're still the core ingredient and determiner.

485
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,480
Speaker 3: Right when and how right.

486
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,320
Speaker 6: I love that losing kind of interest in life might

487
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 6: be an effect more extreme stuff like depersonalization. Derealization is

488
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:34,920
Speaker 6: not uncommon among people that get to such a point

489
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 6: that they find Cheetah house for example, you know suicidality,

490
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 6: which obviously is discussed in that article.

491
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: I'll just give a quick example because I've talked about

492
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: my own like struggles with like panic and what I

493
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 1: now know to be OCD and you know derealization quite

494
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 1: a bit on the on the show. But one of

495
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: the things that came up for me in those first

496
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: couple of weeks when I didn't understand what was happening

497
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 1: to me, Oh, then what are you doing? Go on,

498
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 1: you can keep that, Steve. There's a cat on the

499
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 1: screen and everyone should know was I mean, this isn't

500
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 1: even meditation, But like one thing I was told that

501
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 1: would work would be like breathing deeply, deep breathing, and

502
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 1: I would find that I would breathe deeply, and then

503
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 1: I'd be like, why isn't it working, Why isn't it working?

504
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:24,960
Speaker 1: And then I breathe deeply more and like that can

505
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: almost cause a sort of hyperventilation, you know, Like these

506
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,879
Speaker 1: things that can work sometimes in different contexts definitely do not.

507
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 1: And it would be the same thing with meditation. I'd

508
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,399
Speaker 1: be like, just meditate yourself calmer, Just meditate yourself calmer.

509
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:38,399
Speaker 1: And because I was so hyper tuned to whether or

510
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: not I was calmer, as it would make me more anxious.

511
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: Be calm, bitch. But I was pouring over studies like,

512
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 1: but meditation's supposed to help, Meditation supposed help, and meditation

513
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 1: does help me. But the big lesson I learned there,

514
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: just if anyone's curious, was that like, accepting whatever your

515
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: experience is instead of trying to change it is the

516
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: only way to actually get you know, that was the

517
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: only way I found that I would get through it. Yeah,

518
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 1: that is an example of like someone who for who

519
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: meditation has been very useful, mindfulness has been very useful,

520
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: like just a tuning to my body, a tuning to

521
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 1: the present. But in that context, I was doing it

522
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 1: in a way that was not right for me in

523
00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 1: that moment.

524
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 6: And you know, not infrequently we end up having people,

525
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 6: even people like on the team at Cheetah House who

526
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 6: are friends of mine, meditation was the best thing in

527
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 6: their life for years, potentially, but for whatever reason, and

528
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 6: we can speculate forever as to the many complex variables

529
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 6: that did change. And so again, part of the core

530
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 6: work of Cheetah House and this entire angle is no

531
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 6: one's out there just saying like you can stop and

532
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 6: that's fine, and you're not cutting yourself off from some

533
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:58,400
Speaker 6: positive attainment that you now cannot get. Yes, And again

534
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 6: that comes to that exclusivity. There's so much problems that

535
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 6: can occur when you believe that the positives of something

536
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 6: can only be gotten through this technique.

537
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 3: And I think.

538
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,640
Speaker 6: That the powers that be in pitching and selling mindfulness

539
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 6: have really done a great job in leading people to

540
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 6: believe this is distinct. What it has to offer is distinct,

541
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 6: and it is buttoned up science, ready to go, and

542
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 6: it's just not accurate.

543
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: Right. A lot of the lessons that I learned from

544
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: mindfulness I've also kind of relearned in CBT therapy, for

545
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: you know, just like recognizing and allowing my thoughts to

546
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: be there without fighting them. A lot of the benefits

547
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 1: I've derived from meditation I get from reading a book,

548
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,360
Speaker 1: because the whole thing is about redirecting my attention back

549
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: to the book. Redirecting my attention back to the book

550
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: and not you know, beating myself up if I like

551
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: lose focus for a second. One particular kind of champion

552
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: of meditation that I'm interested in talking about is SAMs

553
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: because actually I had an ext boyfriend who was like

554
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: obsessed with this idea of like transcending the self, and

555
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 1: he loved Sam Harris's podcast but also his app with

556
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: all these different meditations, a lot of them were focused

557
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: on like noticing that you're just like a headless person

558
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 1: and you can't see you know, so many it's and

559
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 1: that was something that was championed to me or that

560
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: I perceived as being this like more like deeper, more

561
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: philosophical approach to life and more whatever. And so anyway,

562
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,399
Speaker 1: I'm curious if there are people who come to Cheatah

563
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 1: House who have had negative experiences from specific people you've

564
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: seen or specific programs that you've seen repeatedly.

565
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.

566
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 6: I mean, you know, no program is exempt. There's nothing

567
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 6: out there that's like so perfect that no one has

568
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 6: a bad experience, just like any other evidence based intervention. Sure,

569
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 6: but there are some that tend to produce more problems.

570
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 6: One is Goenka the pass Anda retreats, which are you know,

571
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 6: famous ten day silent retreats where you know so much

572
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 6: about someone's experience has changed overnight that it really is intense.

573
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 6: It's it's largely led by video recordings of Gowanka speaking,

574
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 6: and so that's that's a you know, top candidate in

575
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 6: terms of potentially causing issues. And then Sam Harris has

576
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 6: been a big one. And Sam Harris is really interesting

577
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 6: because you know, he doesn't come to us in a vacuum.

578
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 6: He is a famous atheist, logician, debater, whatever you want

579
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,520
Speaker 6: to call it. That was his initial currency and clout,

580
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 6: you know. And like my former care wrote an article like, yeah,

581
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 6: trying to intellectually attack some atheist argument of Sam Harris.

582
00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 3: It makes me chuckle now.

583
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,760
Speaker 6: But so when he through whatever series of events, and

584
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 6: he was always a bit more open to these kind

585
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 6: of things, even when he was mostly focused on the

586
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 6: atheism stuff. But through whatever series of events, he has become,

587
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 6: in my view, a pretty stream evangelist. And it really

588
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 6: boggles my mind how someone can so un ironically use

589
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 6: the word enlightenment and speak as if like they are

590
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 6: the purest materialist based scientists and there's no ideology factoring

591
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 6: in here, et cetera. It's important to think about the

592
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 6: context because that brings a certain type of audience, and

593
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,840
Speaker 6: I think some of his audiences like men who want

594
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 6: to body hack, you know, there's a certain approach like

595
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 6: Buddhist modernism, where it's like, let's ditch all the religious

596
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 6: baggage and like just keep the scientific part. And it

597
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 6: has this very like masculine accomplishment, crack the code, maximize

598
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 6: your your body and mind element. And so that's already

599
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 6: kind of his pool partly that he's pulling from. And

600
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 6: then you get them doing meditation and it's like you're

601
00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 6: already got an orientation that is a liability or like

602
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 6: an additional risk factor. And so then they're listening to

603
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 6: meditation or whatever, and to be fair, I don't listen

604
00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 6: extensively to this content some here and there. But then

605
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 6: Sam Harris starts talking about the self as an illusion

606
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:20,080
Speaker 6: or headlessness, and it's like, what blows my mind is

607
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 6: like the myopia in that the deep almost like unquestioned

608
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,719
Speaker 6: assumption that the experience that he's had and is having

609
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 6: will universalize to everyone. And so specifically you're talking about

610
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 6: a famous, wealthy intellectual who's been famous since before he

611
00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 6: was even into this, and he finds some great reward

612
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 6: and value in putting on the conceptualization of like the

613
00:31:48,840 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 6: self is an illusion.

614
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 3: Other people are broke themselves, are.

615
00:31:54,720 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 6: You know, discredited by culture or by society, they have

616
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 6: no power. And you know, furthering this, like yourself is

617
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 6: an illusion may not be the same kind of france

618
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 6: in the in the flowers of reality or whatever that

619
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:16,239
Speaker 6: Sam Harris finds it to be when the rest of

620
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 6: his life he's a very famous, powerful person who's not

621
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 6: perpetually inhabiting the awareness of being an.

622
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 5: Illusion, right, right, he has control of his life. So

623
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 5: in a sense, yeah, yeah.

624
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: That's a good way to say, you don't need to

625
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: conceptualize yourself as much when you have that much autonomy

626
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: in your day to day life. Yourself is sort of

627
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 1: inherent to your life.

628
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, And it's just like so inherently affirmed at

629
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 6: literally like the mass media level. Right, Sam Harris is

630
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 6: the person because we're talking about and right now.

631
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: Right, one of my OCD themes is existentialism and my

632
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: ERP exposure. In response prevention, my therapist said that she

633
00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 1: told me, not only told me to listen to Sam

634
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: Harris's I guess, which I already do sometimes, like I

635
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: do find it to be very interesting a lot of

636
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: the time. But she said a lot of her clients

637
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 1: she either sends them there or they find it to

638
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: be a trigger for their existential OCD, which is like

639
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: not necessarily the same as the meditation itself. It's also

640
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 1: just like deep philosophical conversations about the self and consciousness

641
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 1: and you know, all of that. But it is interesting

642
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 1: that that congregates sort of.

643
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:28,120
Speaker 6: In this those philosophical conversations couched in this is science

644
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 6: and logic. I want to actually give a few caveats

645
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 6: and references to some other things because.

646
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 3: I really write it, yeah, to be fair.

647
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 6: So you know, Sam Harris hosted Willoughby Britain and her

648
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 6: husband Jared Lindahl, who's also a researcher in this realm

649
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 6: on his podcast Behind a Paywall, but probably two plus

650
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 6: years ago now, so he did invite them on. He

651
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 6: had Willoughby read a letter from someone who had reached

652
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 6: out to Cheetah House being having been harmed by his app,

653
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 6: and he you know, read that out on his podcast

654
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 6: and the whole discussion and dude, and he donated some

655
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 6: money to the work, to the research and support of

656
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 6: these things. So, like everything, it is a spectrum. And

657
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 6: I'm not employment like my former guru, none of that

658
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 6: stuff would have ever happened, you know, So I'm not

659
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 6: it's all the same. Yeah, at the same time, like

660
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 6: with great power comes great responsibility, and some of these

661
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 6: people are so largely influential the Decoding The Guruz podcast

662
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 6: did an episode with Sam Harris. He came on, and

663
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 6: I think that's a good, if not frustrating, one to

664
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 6: listen to. And just this week and last week, you know,

665
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 6: Rachel Bernstein's Indoctrination podcast posted a two part interview with

666
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 6: Willoughby Britton herself. So those are other places people can

667
00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 6: look for.

668
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: Some more stuff on this interesting. I do want to

669
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 1: give him credit because I think Sam Harris is really

670
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: good about acknowledging criticism and discussing it directly with the

671
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: people and trying to avoid causing any active harm. He's

672
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: removed himself from the IDW, but you know, like that

673
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: are sort of associated with that movement.

674
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 3: I think I agree.

675
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 6: With that, But there's also a rhetorical prowess that I

676
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 6: don't actually view as prowess anymore. It drives me bade

677
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 6: to be honest, when he's engaged in directly with his critics,

678
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 6: I find those to be very fruitless, non systematic discussions.

679
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: Is there good research yet? I mean, I know it's

680
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: all still sort of being studied. But is there good

681
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: research yet about like what different forms might work for

682
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 1: different people or what might be more risky type of

683
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: meditation to engage.

684
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 3: In, or there there is and it's ever growing.

685
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 6: I mean, Willoughby's lab is called the Clinical and Affective

686
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 6: Neuroscience Lab at Brown, and they've consistently put out studies.

687
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 6: The first kind of foundational one was in twenty seventeen,

688
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 6: and it's called the Varieties of Contemplative Experience Study. And

689
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 6: even in the title, you hear this isn't like the

690
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,400
Speaker 6: Bad Parts of Contemplative Experiences.

691
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 3: Study, it's the varieties.

692
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 6: Of contemplative Experiences And that's where they initially identified like

693
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 6: fifty nine distinct domains.

694
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 3: Of adverse effects that people reported.

695
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 6: Some of them are not always long lived, but like

696
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,240
Speaker 6: they still documented all of that and a time dimension,

697
00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 6: so like short the biggest category they call lasting bad effects.

698
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 6: And so all that kind of research is there. There's

699
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 6: incre Like you know, they've published a paper called like

700
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 6: mindfulness is too much? Is there too much of a

701
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 6: good thing? Which speaks to this practice amount component relevant

702
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:44,160
Speaker 6: but is not you know, determinate onto itself. Really there's

703
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 6: like perpetually studies coming out, and there's some increasing collaboration

704
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 6: and other people also doing this work where historically in

705
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 6: a meditation study they didn't even ask about an adverse effect.

706
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 6: Of course you're not going to find them. Now we're

707
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 6: doing better research at least some Yeah.

708
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,880
Speaker 1: Wow. So there's so much stuff in the field of

709
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: psychology that I'm like constantly just amazed at how early,

710
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 1: how like we're still like baby baby babies, I know,

711
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:16,800
Speaker 1: what is the word fetal?

712
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 5: Fetal barely like if forming.

713
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's I'm like, we should know more about this,

714
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 1: Like we should understand this, and yeah, it's part of

715
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: the reason I'm burning to one day and I'll never

716
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: stop talking about it, become a researcher myself. But you know,

717
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: so there isn't really enough yet to know like how

718
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: to choose which one is right for you? Like, is

719
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: there anything practical kind of we can say.

720
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 6: You know, and again, like this podcast is often about cults,

721
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 6: so we're not calling mindfulness a cult. There are cultic

722
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 6: groups and systems that occur within these realms of practice

723
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 6: and so on. But I mean, I guess in terms

724
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 6: of advice, it's almost but it's like don't make anyone

725
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 6: else the ultimate arbiter of what does and doesn't work.

726
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 3: For you, and consider yeah, any.

727
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 6: Argument, no matter how compelling, that is headed that way

728
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 6: a red flag. So there's some encouraging study is about, like,

729
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 6: you know, less than thirty minutes a day might improve sleep,

730
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 6: but it's not a given that meditation improves sleep, And

731
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 6: in monastic environments usually you want to sleep as little

732
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 6: as possible because austerity is as lauded as a virtue.

733
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 6: So practicing less, you know, not adopting a practice that

734
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 6: somehow isolates you from other people in your life. If

735
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 6: there's an ideological or just a time demand component that

736
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,919
Speaker 6: then is hindering these other relationships, that's when this thing

737
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 6: is starting to pervade more and more parts of your life.

738
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 6: And then I consider that a red flag. Or when

739
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,200
Speaker 6: you know there can be community connected to a practice,

740
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 6: but how in soul is that community?

741
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,240
Speaker 1: Quick note, I feel like I should have said this earlier,

742
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: But like when we're talking about how meditation for long

743
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 1: periods of time can cause hallucinations, I mean talk about

744
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 1: a tool for a cultic group. I feel like we've

745
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:18,600
Speaker 1: had multiple guests who were in groups that would have

746
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: them meditating for hours a day and then they're thinking

747
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: they're having these like transcendent spiritual experiences. But like it was,

748
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 1: hallucination is like what a lack of sensory input can cause,

749
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 1: and that can sort of present as getting in touch

750
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: with another realm.

751
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 6: And historically, who's to say it wasn't that all along?

752
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 6: And culturally then interpret and apply great thing to right

753
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 6: people's enlightenment experiences.

754
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 1: Maybe, you know, Yeah, I mean, you made a really

755
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: great point when we talked before just about how like

756
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 1: I mean, and you've kind of been saying this the

757
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: whole time, but I'm just wondering if you talk a

758
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: little bit more about this idea that like meditation originates

759
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,200
Speaker 1: from these religions that had a spiritual goal in mind,

760
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: and we are doing the same practice without the same

761
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: belief system, And can you just talk about that disconnect

762
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: a little bit more.

763
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,399
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think in my mind it's like things don't

764
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:21,319
Speaker 6: actually exist outside of context. To me, there's always a context,

765
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 6: and so these ideas and practices were developed in a

766
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 6: context where reincarnation was just a given right and and

767
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 6: you know, other things were like given assumed truths, and therefore,

768
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 6: you know, it's like a mall map. If I'm here

769
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 6: and I want to get here to nirvana, blowing out

770
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 6: of my existence, meditation is a you know, pretty viable

771
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,280
Speaker 6: path to get from where I am to there. Those

772
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,240
Speaker 6: people were not trying to focus better at their job.

773
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 6: They were not trying to love their partner better. They

774
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 6: were not try more attentive to the children that they

775
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 6: didn't have, like and so while we're not doing the

776
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 6: exact same practices like you can't divorce that, these are

777
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:17,959
Speaker 6: not practices handed to us from divinity. Therefore, intrinsically they

778
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 6: were a context. They had this other thing, and so

779
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 6: to just easily and cleanly say like, oh, we're going

780
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 6: to use that but for these other aims doesn't work.

781
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:33,880
Speaker 6: And you know, some more devout Buddhists would almost agree

782
00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:35,720
Speaker 6: with a lot of what I'm saying, and they would

783
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 6: say like, yeah, the problem is all these scientists and

784
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:43,640
Speaker 6: psychologists think that they can use this for their end.

785
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:45,680
Speaker 6: So there's some people who would say, yeah, you shouldn't

786
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 6: divorce it from the larger worldview. That's not what it's

787
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 6: intended for. But I think that's where some of the

788
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 6: disconnect happens. And then we don't have that cultural history

789
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 6: or awareness, so no one is kind of no red

790
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 6: flag goes off when the meditator says, you know, do

791
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 6: you want to focus or do you want to relax?

792
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 6: And we're like, wait, the same methodology for both.

793
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, if there are benefits to be had, of course,

794
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 1: let's incorporate them. Let's integrate them into psychology. But let's

795
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: do it in a way that's responsible and differentiates between

796
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: different types of practices and what lengths of time might

797
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 1: be appropriate, and you know whether it should or should

798
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: not be tied to a specific ideology exactly.

799
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 6: And then what we're seeing is because that isn't what

800
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 6: stage dot set. What we're talking about now feels like

801
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,279
Speaker 6: an attack, but it's because, like I said, like the

802
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 6: perception is skewed, and so what we're doing now is

803
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 6: like corrective in.

804
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,279
Speaker 1: My view, right right, and progressive.

805
00:42:49,320 --> 00:42:53,879
Speaker 6: It's both pushing it forward and rebalancing what's already there.

806
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 5: Right.

807
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: So, say someone uh listening to this podcast has had

808
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,160
Speaker 1: a negative reaction to a long minute, say they're struggling

809
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 1: with anxiety or dissociation or whatever, what should they do?

810
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,720
Speaker 6: I mean first is if you haven't entertained stopping or pausing,

811
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 6: take the permission to do that. It's not permanent, you're

812
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 6: not committed, et cetera. But like too often, no one

813
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 6: has ever told someone that, right, And so I'd say,

814
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 6: you know, try it out. Other than that, I'd say,

815
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 6: you know, there's some and growing resources out there. Cheetah House.

816
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 6: We have a support group. We have a care team,

817
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 6: which is like trained one on one consultations with people,

818
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 6: some of whom also have mental health credentials. But it's

819
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 6: not therapy because it's online across state lines. So it's

820
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 6: really because no one else is out there with real

821
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 6: informed perspective on these struggles and people are just coming

822
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 6: and come in and coming needing help. So we designed

823
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:52,479
Speaker 6: over twenty twenty one this care team and it's people

824
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 6: with lived experience and training and supporting others, and so

825
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,440
Speaker 6: that appointments can be booked through the Cheetah House website

826
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 6: for that and just resources there. There's some some good

827
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 6: videos on vimeo on the Britain lab vr itt O

828
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 6: n Vimeo page.

829
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 1: Awesome, thank you well, n' ti. I feel like I

830
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:14,720
Speaker 1: could talk to you for freaking hours.

831
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 5: I mean, really so smart.

832
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: So to summarize, you've had such unique experiences at this point,

833
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 1: and you know so much. What does the future hold

834
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 1: for you? What are the big lessons from these things?

835
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:27,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, just well, I guess.

836
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 6: I want to mention, you know, week to week, I'm

837
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:33,760
Speaker 6: only doing a few hours related to the meditation adverse

838
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 6: meditation experiences work. You know, most of what I do,

839
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 6: I work at a child whose prevention nonprofit, and I

840
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:44,279
Speaker 6: still do work in cult awareness and interventions occasionally, you know,

841
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 6: sometimes people want my help and understanding the situation their

842
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 6: family is dealing with. One of the places I imagine

843
00:44:50,960 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 6: myself heading is really nonprofit consultation. So I realized many

844
00:44:56,320 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 6: cults mine included are five oh one C three nonprofit

845
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 6: and so I you know, really I've been in my

846
00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 6: industry since I was eighteen, although I didn't think about

847
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 6: it that way for a long time. And what I've

848
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 6: become increasingly passionate about and was passionate about even then,

849
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:17,839
Speaker 6: was really organizational community health. And so basically, I think

850
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:23,320
Speaker 6: I have a unique ability to perceive the problems based

851
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 6: on being on the end of them for so long.

852
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 6: So my thinking is, if I can take some of

853
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 6: that and all the experience I'm building in my career

854
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:38,959
Speaker 6: and really help good causes do what they are trying

855
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 6: to do better and more ethically.

856
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 3: That feels really good to me.

857
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:47,560
Speaker 6: And I also worry about too long term of involvement

858
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 6: in any one organization because of my sectivity to bureaucracy

859
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 6: and politics, and you know, any industry, you eventually kind

860
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 6: of learn how the sausage is made and you're like, oh,

861
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 6: and so my thing is like, that's a project based work,

862
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:09,560
Speaker 6: you know, organizations. If my niche is interpersonal influence and

863
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 6: abuse and things preventing of that systems of accountability, the

864
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 6: people who hire me are at a point where they

865
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,800
Speaker 6: want that. So I get paid to come in fault

866
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 6: fined as I used to get criticized for by my

867
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 6: group suggest things, and then ultimately I'm not responsible for

868
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 6: the long term execution of that, which is where things

869
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 6: start to break down also, And so not that I

870
00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 6: wouldn't be invested in that, but it allows me to

871
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,680
Speaker 6: kind of take the core of what I have to offer,

872
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 6: try to like inject it into meaningful causes and move

873
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 6: in to not drive myself crazy.

874
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly right.

875
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,360
Speaker 1: So basically, if you don't want your group to become

876
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,000
Speaker 1: a cult contact a tie.

877
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 6: Well, let me I mean, I will say I played

878
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 6: a big hand in the current iteration of Cheetah House

879
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 6: in terms of helping steer the mission and vision and

880
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 6: values exercises, and we really agonized. We went to great

881
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 6: lengths meeting all the time to talk about how are

882
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 6: we going to avoid recreating dynamics that occurred in creating

883
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 6: this problem in the first place. Right, Because when people

884
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 6: are coming and they're trying to resolve these meditation issues,

885
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 6: this is like worldviews you're touching on, and so we

886
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 6: really go to great lengths to understand what people are

887
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 6: struggling with, how they interpret that, and what their goal is.

888
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,360
Speaker 6: And if we feel like what we have to offer

889
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 6: is well suited to that, then we offer it. But

890
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 6: if they are certain that they still want to retain

891
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 6: a strictly spiritual interpretation of what they're struggling with, then

892
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 6: we will direct them to other places that are more

893
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 6: useful for that. And so, you know, I feel pretty

894
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 6: good about this foundation that we've laid, and it was

895
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,560
Speaker 6: one of my first kind of goes at that degree

896
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 6: of trying to inject some of these ideas, and it's

897
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 6: a very favorable group of people to do that.

898
00:48:11,160 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 3: They're on the same page.

899
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 5: Oh that's great, that's awesome.

900
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,280
Speaker 1: So if people want to contact you, where where should

901
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: they go?

902
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 3: Facebook? You can reach me. If someone wants to email me,

903
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 3: they can do that.

904
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,839
Speaker 6: And Jay two three sixty five at Columbia dot edu.

905
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:25,880
Speaker 3: I'm available.

906
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,160
Speaker 6: I just don't have a website and I do sidework

907
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 6: and stuff, but it's not to the point where people

908
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 6: can book book my time through calendarly or anything like that.

909
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thanks so much for talking to us.

910
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:41,520
Speaker 1: This has been enlightening and fascinating and stimulating and.

911
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 5: All of it enlightened.

912
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 1: Get it not enlightened? We are not.

913
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:50,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really glad.

914
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 6: You know, you reached out to me quite a ways

915
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:56,240
Speaker 6: ago initially, and I'm happy that it finally came full circle.

916
00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:00,080
Speaker 1: Me too, Good stuff you too, And I can't I

917
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: to hear about any future podcast you might have in

918
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: the works.

919
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 3: Is potential? Uh, some ideas cooking up?

920
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 5: Imagine?

921
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: So cool? Okay, thanks so much to and Tie. That

922
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: was super super interesting.

923
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,319
Speaker 4: And Megan, I would like to know have you been

924
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 4: a member of the Cult's meditation.

925
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:21,880
Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, a deep member.

926
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 2: Actually, I wish I would have said this in the beginning,

927
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 2: but I once did.

928
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:27,240
Speaker 5: With my graduate degree.

929
00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 2: I went to France for two weeks and did a

930
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 2: meditation course that was like it counted as a class credit.

931
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 2: So we went to a monastery in France and for

932
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 2: two weeks we meditated all day every day.

933
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:44,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, what was like?

934
00:49:44,440 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 2: It was so glorious. I loved it so much. It

935
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 2: was one of the best experiences of my life. But

936
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,359
Speaker 2: when I came home, I was trying to go to

937
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,719
Speaker 2: sleep and I was kind of meditating. I don't know,

938
00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 2: but I entered some bizarre half conscious realm where it

939
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 2: sounded like a katrillion demons were screaming inside of my chest.

940
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 3: My God.

941
00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:09,280
Speaker 4: Jesus accent.

942
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,640
Speaker 2: Then I like talk to someone and they're like, yeah,

943
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:14,440
Speaker 2: I mean, it's exactly what he said.

944
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 5: They were like, yeah, meditating that much is.

945
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:21,760
Speaker 2: Not good for you all at once, Like you need

946
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 2: to keep in reality.

947
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,720
Speaker 1: So when you were because I've never really asked anyone

948
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 1: about their experience on a meditation like a retreat or

949
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: you know, sort of long sessions like that, like what

950
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 1: was the actual experience, Like was it boring?

951
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 4: Were you hallucinating? Was it? Like? What was it?

952
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:42,320
Speaker 2: I mean, there was so many different weird experiences. Because

953
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 2: someday it would be like the morning we would get

954
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 2: up and we would meditate with this monk named Chantelle

955
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:54,160
Speaker 2: who it would be very like, uh, strict and hard

956
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,919
Speaker 2: and early and like straight back and whatever, and that

957
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,600
Speaker 2: was difficult. But then there'd be other ones that were

958
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:04,719
Speaker 2: more I don't know. There was like one meditation I

959
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 2: felt like I was going to have an orgasm. Like

960
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,320
Speaker 2: another meditation, I felt like I could see a different life,

961
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 2: like I don't know, crazy shit was happening. But again,

962
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 2: if you take all stimulation away from your brain and

963
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 2: close your eyes for fourteen days, that's sure to happen. Also, though,

964
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 2: you know, the serenity and peace and clarity I had

965
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 2: was unbelievable, and I was able to make changes to

966
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:33,080
Speaker 2: my life that I'm really proud of. So I don't know,

967
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,560
Speaker 2: but there's definitely has to be balanced.

968
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 1: You're in the benefitter category. It's definitely like conducive to

969
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: your well being.

970
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,360
Speaker 4: I think absolutely. Was there a particular style that you

971
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:44,759
Speaker 4: were doing.

972
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 2: I don't really remember, although I do know that all

973
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 2: the teachers had a different style.

974
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 4: Oh that's cool, that's super interesting. If I were to

975
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,720
Speaker 4: do that that's that would be more the way.

976
00:51:55,640 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: I would be interested in doing it. Yeah, getting sort

977
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,160
Speaker 1: of a sense of all the different ways that you

978
00:52:00,160 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 1: can meditate, I get really I think I mentioned TM

979
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 1: in an interview, but I get really Like my body

980
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 1: tenses up a little bit when people tell me that

981
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:11,080
Speaker 1: they've only ever done TM, because that is an organization

982
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,319
Speaker 1: that takes your money and tells you you have a

983
00:52:13,440 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 1: mantra that only they can give you, and like you

984
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 1: can just keep taking classes forever. Right now, there's a

985
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I fucking love David Lynch, but I am

986
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 1: getting these advertisements for this like expensive program that teaches

987
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: filmmakers to meditate.

988
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 5: I think I can't. I can't.

989
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 4: And it's like a like a long program.

990
00:52:36,040 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 1: Literally all you have to.

991
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 2: Do is close your eyes and stop being mean to

992
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:41,160
Speaker 2: yourself for ten minutes.

993
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:46,839
Speaker 1: I have not I haven't done that many styles, but

994
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 1: I just I do really like just the really basic

995
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: idea of mindfulness, which is just like come back to

996
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: the present. Whatever it is that you're focusing on, just

997
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:56,319
Speaker 1: come back to the present. It's just about coming back

998
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: to your body. There are a thousand fucking ways to

999
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 1: do that, a million ways to do that. But yeah,

1000
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 1: when I get wary when someone's like, oh this is

1001
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 1: the way, this is the only way that I do it,

1002
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,879
Speaker 1: and this is my mantra that I've been given and.

1003
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 4: The only way one should do it, I.

1004
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 2: Will say there was a weird experience or one of

1005
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,839
Speaker 2: the girls on the meditation trip was like, I'm going

1006
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:19,880
Speaker 2: to die and we were all like, no, you're not.

1007
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 5: And then she did.

1008
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 4: So when did she die?

1009
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:24,960
Speaker 5: Like three weeks after we got back and she was

1010
00:53:24,960 --> 00:53:27,279
Speaker 5: in her twenties. Oh my god, how did she die

1011
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 5: the weirdest way. It didn't make sense.

1012
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 4: I'm going to need like a tiny bit more information.

1013
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 2: She had a weird blood disorder that wasn't fatal, but

1014
00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 2: I guess it's not nothing.

1015
00:53:39,320 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 5: She always had to deal with it.

1016
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,719
Speaker 2: And then we were in France and we were like

1017
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:45,720
Speaker 2: meditating all the time and she had this panic attack

1018
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:47,399
Speaker 2: and was just like, I think I'm going to die

1019
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,040
Speaker 2: soon and we were like, of course you're not, Like

1020
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,959
Speaker 2: it's fine whatever, And then a couple of weeks after

1021
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:54,280
Speaker 2: we got back, she died.

1022
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 5: And then just randomly, my friend.

1023
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,720
Speaker 2: Went to high school with her in a completely different state,

1024
00:54:00,160 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 2: knew all about her. I mean, she knew her very well,

1025
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:04,840
Speaker 2: so she like went back for the funeral and stuff,

1026
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 2: and it was just so strange.

1027
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 4: Wow, that makes me feel really sad.

1028
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 1: My theory on that would be that like when you're

1029
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,800
Speaker 1: so that attuned to your body in a meditation retreat,

1030
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: like you can sense that something is wrong, you know,

1031
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 1: versus the like busy busy.

1032
00:54:19,640 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 2: Oh yeah she didn't psychically, no, but it was just

1033
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:23,640
Speaker 2: like really strange.

1034
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:24,960
Speaker 4: Oh that's awful.

1035
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:26,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, what a.

1036
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 4: Lovely note to end.

1037
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:29,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks, thanks.

1038
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:32,280
Speaker 5: I just want everybody to know that it does get worse.

1039
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 2: So anyway, we can't wait to see you here next week.

1040
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:38,759
Speaker 5: Anything to add la.

1041
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:42,280
Speaker 1: La no other than do you you guys, if meditation

1042
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 1: makes you happy, please fucking do it.

1043
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 4: Do not be deterred. I have OCD.

1044
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 1: So I definitely went on a little spiral for two

1045
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 1: weeks after first talking to NATAI where I was.

1046
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 4: Like, should I not metitude anymore? And please do not

1047
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 4: do that, because it's not real.

1048
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:59,239
Speaker 2: Just yeah, take what works, leave what doesn't, and you know,

1049
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 2: see what happen happens.

1050
00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 4: Indeed, all right, well this.

1051
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:05,800
Speaker 5: Week, remember to follow your gut, watch out for red flags,

1052
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 5: and never ever trust me.

1053
00:55:09,520 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 1: Bye bye,