Speaker 1: Hell, I Suck a Dating with Dengler and Dared Haven
Speaker 1: Heart Radio podcast. What is going on, sucky daters? Welcome
Speaker 1: to an all new episode of Help I Suck At Dating.
Speaker 1: Jared's Holy crap, they just like keep interrupting. It's uh so,
Speaker 1: this is what happens. You know your wife butts in anyway.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Help I Suck at Dating. Dean's playing video game.
Speaker 1: My wife is coming into her room. This is just
Speaker 1: what happens. We have a great episode coming up for
Speaker 1: you though. Uh we have some emails of course. Our
Speaker 1: favorite part, we have our great guest. He is um
Speaker 1: podcast host to Deer Therapist and you can obviously listen
Speaker 1: to that wherever you get your podcast. Guy Winch is
Speaker 1: on the program today. Sound we sound like real professionals
Speaker 1: when we say that, um, so make sure you tune
Speaker 1: in for that. But before that, Dean, are you in
Speaker 1: a car? Are you in a house? Where the hell
Speaker 1: are you? I'm in a house. I'm sitting in front
Speaker 1: of my Xbox playing some color. So if you if
Speaker 1: I get a little distracted, just know that I'm you know,
Speaker 1: I'm getting some some headshots over here. So yeah, you
Speaker 1: just need to turn the Xbox off. There's too much distraction.
Speaker 1: That's why I like I that's you know, there's good
Speaker 1: things about working from home, but there's also bad things
Speaker 1: from working at home. One of the good things is
Speaker 1: you can wear pajamas to work. The bad news is
Speaker 1: there is about a million distractions jun your house that
Speaker 1: just keeps you so unmotivated. I'm not saying that to you.
Speaker 1: I'm saying that to me at the end of the day.
Speaker 1: We've been doing this podcast for a long time, right,
Speaker 1: I think almost like two or three years. You and
Speaker 1: I together for two years, I would say, And through
Speaker 1: those two years, I've really learned to just turn my
Speaker 1: brain off as soon as you start talking and just
Speaker 1: kind of tuned back in like five or six minutes later,
Speaker 1: just because you go off on these tangents, you know.
Speaker 1: So this is a great way for me to kind
Speaker 1: of like remain like keep my neurons firing while also
Speaker 1: not paying attention to you speak. So it's like kind
Speaker 1: of a win win in a weird way. Great, I'm
Speaker 1: glad to hear that. Anyway, Let's get into our first
Speaker 1: topic of the day. Beckham Martinez, bachelor A long um
Speaker 1: uh if I think everybody who probably is a bachelor
Speaker 1: fandows who Becca Martinez is? Uh? She uh just had
Speaker 1: an article written that said that her and her boyfriend
Speaker 1: have actually had talks about having an open relationship. So
Speaker 1: uh it says that, you know, Becca obviously is not
Speaker 1: afraid to embrace her nontraditional views on relationships. She's done
Speaker 1: this many times. During appearance on Tuesday's episode of Dear
Speaker 1: Media is Not Skinny but Not Fat podcast. That's the
Speaker 1: first time I'm reading that. I like that title. Uh.
Speaker 1: Becca opened up about her relationship with her boyfriend Grayston
Speaker 1: Leonard who they have one child there, she's pregnant with
Speaker 1: their second, and they talked about having an open relationships.
Speaker 1: She said, we've talked before about it, Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: wanting to get married. I don't know if I want
Speaker 1: to have sex with you for the rest of my life.
Speaker 1: So at least Becca is very honest. She was quoted
Speaker 1: as that. She also quoted said, and so we've talked
Speaker 1: about that maybe one day we could have an open relationship.
Speaker 1: Said that her boyfriend, Grayston first of all, great name, God,
Speaker 1: I love that name, uh, said that he was possibly
Speaker 1: open to the idea. Becca went on to say he's
Speaker 1: not that jealous. She went on to add that no
Speaker 1: matter what the future may hold, she and Graceton will
Speaker 1: always be committed to one another. Uh. They have two
Speaker 1: kids together, obviously, like we just talked about, they love
Speaker 1: each other. Uh, they want to be together, but they
Speaker 1: might want to be in an open relationship. So, Dean,
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts about being in an open relationship?
Speaker 1: You ever talked to Calin about it? I've I have
Speaker 1: not talked to Calin about it seriously, maybe like jokingly
Speaker 1: or whatever. I don't know. I think, Uh, if that's
Speaker 1: what you want to do, by by all means more
Speaker 1: power to you. It's like a very progressive way of thinking.
Speaker 1: Maybe not progressive, but just like kind of against the
Speaker 1: grain modern modern day. I feel like I feel like
Speaker 1: more people think about it today than thirty years ago, right,
Speaker 1: And I think that the reason that they even considered
Speaker 1: as an as a possibility is because they have the kids.
Speaker 1: Like it just kind of it's like, look, will always
Speaker 1: be committed to each other and these kids, but like,
Speaker 1: let's say we have these desires elsewhere than just like
Speaker 1: no that you're allowed to explore it. And I think
Speaker 1: that the way that I at least understood. That quote
Speaker 1: was like, we're not in an open relationship now, but
Speaker 1: like we possibly could, like I could see ourselves entering
Speaker 1: one later on down the line, which, like, I think
Speaker 1: that's a really a mature way of thinking. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, you don't know how you're gonna be feeling
Speaker 1: about things in five or ten years, but you do
Speaker 1: know that you're gonna stay committed to your children. Um,
Speaker 1: And so I mean, I respect, I respect that. Would
Speaker 1: you ever be in an open relationship? Um, I have
Speaker 1: no idea it's possible. I don't really I don't see
Speaker 1: why I would ever want to be in an open relationship. Um,
Speaker 1: But I don't, like I said, I don't know how
Speaker 1: I'm going to feel in five or ten years at
Speaker 1: this moment in my life. No, Like I don't really
Speaker 1: care enough. Uh. Like I think Becca kind of touches
Speaker 1: on it in that quote. It's like, I think the
Speaker 1: only reason to pursue an open relationship is because, for
Speaker 1: whatever reason, you're not being fulfilled sexually, right, And so
Speaker 1: it's like, as long as you're having that fulfilled, and
Speaker 1: I don't really see the reason to be in an
Speaker 1: open relationship unless you kind of just get off on
Speaker 1: the on the you know, random people thing, which totally
Speaker 1: fine too, but uh, at the moment, No, I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily see like I could. I could, I could see
Speaker 1: myself maybe one day. Like, I'm not really a very
Speaker 1: jealous person at this point in my life, so it's like,
Speaker 1: I don't like that wouldn't really bother me too much.
Speaker 1: So let me put a hypothetical in your mind, say,
Speaker 1: like somebody was Um, of course people are just going
Speaker 1: to assume this is me, but I'm literally just spit
Speaker 1: bowling off the top of my head. Say someone was
Speaker 1: in a committed relationship and they were having thoughts of
Speaker 1: cheating on their spouse because they were so sexually attracted
Speaker 1: somebody else. Do you think the right thing to do
Speaker 1: would be to either try to bury that and push
Speaker 1: it to the side, or discuss with your partner about
Speaker 1: possibly bringing someone else in for maybe not an open relationship,
Speaker 1: but maybe some openness in the bedroom. Yeah. No, that's
Speaker 1: an interesting question. I don't know if you should necessarily
Speaker 1: talk about bringing I mean, obviously, who the heck knows
Speaker 1: what they're talking about. I sure don't, But my interpretation
Speaker 1: of it would be don't don't suppress it, don't talk
Speaker 1: about bring them into the bedroom down to either of
Speaker 1: the things. But in the middle ground, you could be
Speaker 1: like you can approach your partner and be like, hey,
Speaker 1: like I have these, uh, these thoughts or these feelings
Speaker 1: about someone else. Uh, let's just talk about it. And
Speaker 1: I think once you just talk about it, that hopefully
Speaker 1: would be enough to kind of like alleviate any type
Speaker 1: of feelings that you might have for that other person,
Speaker 1: whatever it might be, or even just like you know,
Speaker 1: the openness and honesty and all that kind of stuff
Speaker 1: I think kind of like helps you, like sometimes it's
Speaker 1: not like a sexual desire. It's just like you kind
Speaker 1: of like need to just like talk it out. And
Speaker 1: so that's kind of my take on it, at least.
Speaker 1: What about you, What do you think? Well, my neighbor
Speaker 1: uh is a gay man, very very sweet human being.
Speaker 1: He was in a thrupple, which is an open relationship
Speaker 1: with three people, uh since we moved in, and they
Speaker 1: have since broken up, and then two of the three
Speaker 1: stayed together while the third moved out. But they seem
Speaker 1: to like it. I don't know. I think it's so
Speaker 1: hard to navigate when you first of all relationships are
Speaker 1: difficult to start off with, like, you know, I love
Speaker 1: my wife, but obviously it's you know, there's certain given
Speaker 1: takes that you have in any relationship. The idea of
Speaker 1: adding something else in there's somebody else in there and
Speaker 1: adding to that stress who that's a heavy burden. So
Speaker 1: I looked up pros and cons of being in an
Speaker 1: open relationship. This is from a website called Polly coach
Speaker 1: dot com. So it says some of the pros. First one,
Speaker 1: personal growth. Open relationship lifestyle offers a sea of opportunities
Speaker 1: of personal growth. Being in an open relationship has taught
Speaker 1: me how to be more true to myself while staying
Speaker 1: in connection with my partner and with others. They also say,
Speaker 1: my alarms going off, my laundry is done. I gotta
Speaker 1: change that anyway. Uh. They say more variety is another pro.
Speaker 1: Do you ever think that you could have your cake
Speaker 1: and eat it too? People in relationships can say that.
Speaker 1: He They also say that improved communication is a pro.
Speaker 1: Communication is the biggest area of focus for anyone practicing
Speaker 1: ethical nonmonogamy. Um. They also okay, so now we're getting
Speaker 1: into the cons. Obviously, the first one feelings feelings and
Speaker 1: emotions are a natural part of being human. All feelings
Speaker 1: come and go. That's the natural nature of the game.
Speaker 1: So obviously jealousy would be a big one. Logistics is
Speaker 1: another one. Uh. Saying love is infinite but time is
Speaker 1: finite is commonly used by people who practice ethical nonmonogamy.
Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what that means. Love is infinite,
Speaker 1: but time is finite. Well, yeah, but times finite. I
Speaker 1: know what that means, but I guess I'm trying to
Speaker 1: understand in the context of an open relationship what that means. Um.
Speaker 1: But they go on to say, there are only so
Speaker 1: many hours of the day, work, family, relationships, all of that. Uh,
Speaker 1: there's just not enough time to do everything that we
Speaker 1: want to do, let alone add another person to the mix. Uh.
Speaker 1: So obviously you know time is constrained when you're an
Speaker 1: open relationship. They also say limited resources when things get tough.
Speaker 1: One of the main reasons why this apparent. This person
Speaker 1: says they choose to work with the open relationship niche
Speaker 1: is because it is a very undeserved population. Underserved population.
Speaker 1: Excuse me. There are resources available online, articles, books, podcast,
Speaker 1: bada ba dah blah. A couple of struggling. It's hard
Speaker 1: to find someone to talk to who can both understand
Speaker 1: their situation. So pretty much what this person is saying
Speaker 1: is that, like, it's great, you get more you know.
Speaker 1: The pros are, you get more variety, you get to
Speaker 1: have your cake and eat it too, which is always
Speaker 1: a positive. But apparently this helped them in communication as well,
Speaker 1: adding another person, which makes sense because you all have
Speaker 1: to be kind of on the same page if you're
Speaker 1: all going to be in this open relationship and be
Speaker 1: happy in it. But obviously logistics, jealousy, and lack of
Speaker 1: time with both people, uh is some of the cons
Speaker 1: which I can totally understand. So I mean, good for them.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I could ever be in an
Speaker 1: open relationship I get uh, I just overthink everything in general.
Speaker 1: So the idea of adding another person in their wolf
Speaker 1: plus like, you know, I'm just not you know, I
Speaker 1: would feel like the worst of the three, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Yeah, my self confidence couldn't handle an
Speaker 1: open relationship. I would be constantly insecure. Wait one second,
Speaker 1: let me just pause, call do you here real quick?
Speaker 1: That's kind of exactly what I was talking too. I'm
Speaker 1: just kidding. Uh uh no, Yeah, I think the insecurities
Speaker 1: definitely play play a big factor in it. But it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: like picture this ten years down the line. You know,
Speaker 1: you and actually married, you have we'll say two kids
Speaker 1: at the time, Um, and things are getting like a
Speaker 1: little stale. Maybe that would be like an interesting way
Speaker 1: for you to kind of come in and like reinvigorate
Speaker 1: the you know. The prime allerges is the is like
Speaker 1: an open relationship the same thing as a threesome. Um.
Speaker 1: I don't think, I mean, is a relationship same thing
Speaker 1: as like a one night stand? I know, I agree,
Speaker 1: I think it's a little bit different, but it sounds like, well,
Speaker 1: an open relationship is being open to having threesomes. I
Speaker 1: don't think an open relationship means throubles only. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like you're a couple and you just like kind
Speaker 1: of swing every once in a while. Um, and I
Speaker 1: have friends who are in the swinging community, which is
Speaker 1: kind of funny to say. Uh, and it just it
Speaker 1: sounds really interesting. They're happy with it, but it really
Speaker 1: does boil down to communication. UM. And the big thing
Speaker 1: that at least I've understood with all of that stuff
Speaker 1: is beyond that, make sure that both people want to
Speaker 1: do it, and not that one person wants to do
Speaker 1: it and the other person is doing it because that
Speaker 1: person wants to do it. Because if that's the case,
Speaker 1: then that's how that's how bad feelings start to fester. Um.
Speaker 1: But if both people want to do it, I think
Speaker 1: it's a lot better rather than one person doing it
Speaker 1: just to like make the other person happy, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. Well, that's why I think this person
Speaker 1: said one of the proses communication because it forces you
Speaker 1: to talk about things with your partners, because, like you said,
Speaker 1: you have to be all on the same page or
Speaker 1: else jealous, he's gonna take over. People are going to
Speaker 1: get insecure, and it's just gonna turn things into a
Speaker 1: far worse situation. Right. But if you if you wait
Speaker 1: till after the fact to get on the same page,
Speaker 1: then you're kind of are like looking back with regret
Speaker 1: and remorse. But if you're on the same page before
Speaker 1: even getting into that situation, uh, then that's obviously a
Speaker 1: much better place to be, you know what I mean. Like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I don't know, I mean, I I can't say
Speaker 1: it's never gonna happen for me personally, I don't I
Speaker 1: don't expect it to I don't plan on it ever happening,
Speaker 1: but it's freaking We've all seen how crazy the world
Speaker 1: can get, so you never know what you might want
Speaker 1: to do before the world explodes. Yeah, that's true. You
Speaker 1: know you gotta check certain things off the bucket list
Speaker 1: before the asteroid hits right, right, right, And that's on
Speaker 1: the list. I mean it's low on the list, don't
Speaker 1: get me wrong. Priority is very low on it. But
Speaker 1: if I were to make a list I probably would
Speaker 1: have something like that on the list at some point. Yeah,
Speaker 1: why not? You know you gotta try everything once, right, right,
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think we kind of agree on that. Um.
Speaker 1: I also read up on this New York Times article
Speaker 1: because you and I are obviously in relationships, so we
Speaker 1: don't know, like too much about the dating world. So
Speaker 1: I looked up the dating world during the pandemic and
Speaker 1: there was this New York Times article that was pretty interesting,
Speaker 1: said true stories of hooking up during COVID nineteen, and
Speaker 1: it just went through different stories of anonymous people and
Speaker 1: it is pretty crazy when you think about it, Dean,
Speaker 1: because like you and I were single for a while.
Speaker 1: Dating was great but also sucked many times, you know,
Speaker 1: going on dates, the the nervousness of of meeting someone
Speaker 1: or not knowing who they are, where they come from.
Speaker 1: Now add in a pandemic, and like, some of these
Speaker 1: stories are crazy, Like one person went on a date
Speaker 1: and she got like berated by a dude who was
Speaker 1: kind of making fun of her for asking him to
Speaker 1: keep his mask on. Just the idea of going on
Speaker 1: a date and staying six ft apart is something that
Speaker 1: will never cease to amaze me. I don't know how
Speaker 1: people are dating right now. Like I get nervous when
Speaker 1: I encounter someone I don't know and we're like still
Speaker 1: six ft apart, but I still get weirded out. I
Speaker 1: feel bad for people who have to go on dates
Speaker 1: right now. It sucks. Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean I agree.
Speaker 1: I think I was talking with my buddies the other
Speaker 1: day who is single, and I was like, dude, it's
Speaker 1: got to be absolutely brutal, and he like, uh, most
Speaker 1: of my friends are like self sufficient enough, like the
Speaker 1: single ones where they're like yea, like I don't really
Speaker 1: need to be in a relationship. I don't think that
Speaker 1: either of us were ever really like that either, but
Speaker 1: it would just like it would suck. It would absolutely suck.
Speaker 1: So if you're listening to this podcasts and you're single, um,
Speaker 1: maybe tell us how you're getting through this quarantine. You
Speaker 1: can email us I suck at Dating at iHeart media
Speaker 1: dot com. I think it would be cool to get
Speaker 1: like firsthand accounts of how people are coping and how
Speaker 1: they're going on dates, um, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: And obviously, like California just opened up. I think today
Speaker 1: is the first day that they've allowed outdoor dining since
Speaker 1: like October or something like that. Yeah, it's finally starting
Speaker 1: to open up. Even though like this new strand of
Speaker 1: COVID apparently is more contagious than the the other one.
Speaker 1: This this I think South African strand they're calling it.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, dude, I don't know. It just seems
Speaker 1: like it gets worse every day and we're never getting
Speaker 1: out of it. But I hope I'm wrong about that.
Speaker 1: I'm also a pessimist. Um, I'm just curious, like I
Speaker 1: want to know from the people out there are more
Speaker 1: people like sexting or doing like zoom sex chats. I'm
Speaker 1: very curious about that because I feel like there's always
Speaker 1: a stigma against sexting, and now I feel like it
Speaker 1: should be more prevalent than than any other time in history. Uh.
Speaker 1: There's another another friend of mine, UM who she she
Speaker 1: doesn't like sext but she sends like like sexy gifts
Speaker 1: to the people that she's talking to. It's very strange. Um,
Speaker 1: But I mean, I'm sure there's gotta be more than that.
Speaker 1: But Jared, so yesterday before we before we jump into
Speaker 1: our guests who you mentioned above, Guy Winch, we also
Speaker 1: took these apology quizzes. You and I, Oh, yeah, I
Speaker 1: forgot about that. Yeah, well we need to discuss that
Speaker 1: at least a little bit before getting into our guests.
Speaker 1: So we took Jared I both took apology quizzes on
Speaker 1: the five Love Languages website. The five that it would
Speaker 1: be a good idea. I I think, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know what it tells about me. Well, so,
Speaker 1: so for the listeners out there, go to the five
Speaker 1: Level Languages website and take the apology quiz if you're interested.
Speaker 1: But there are five ways to apologize properly, according to
Speaker 1: this website. UM expressing regret, accepting responsibility, making restitution, genuinely repenting,
Speaker 1: or requesting forgiveness and you take this test. It probably
Speaker 1: takes like ten or fifteen minutes, and it like it
Speaker 1: rates which way that you like to apologize and you
Speaker 1: like other people to apologize to you. Yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: a psychological test because it was like, I don't know
Speaker 1: if you noticed this, but every question they asked that
Speaker 1: it gave five different answers of the way people like
Speaker 1: the ways you want people to respond, But all five
Speaker 1: ways were very similar. They were just kind of worded
Speaker 1: differently with different phrases. So it kind of felt like,
Speaker 1: I forget what that test is called, but it's the
Speaker 1: tests you have to take before you go on the Bachelor. Um,
Speaker 1: it's a psychological exam where questions are are very repetitive
Speaker 1: but worded differently to see you know how sane or
Speaker 1: insane you are. So do you remember which like when
Speaker 1: taking this apology test, do you remember which one you
Speaker 1: apologize properly or like the way you apologize? Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I it's pretty easy, like you read the
Speaker 1: question and then you read the five answers, and after
Speaker 1: a couple of questions you start to realize which answers are,
Speaker 1: Like you can tell It's like compartmentalizing the responses and
Speaker 1: then it's going to give you back an answer depending
Speaker 1: on which one you answered the most. You know, yeah,
Speaker 1: I see yours. I see yours. Now your primary apology, Dean,
Speaker 1: your primary apology language was accept responsibility. Yeah, it's funny too,
Speaker 1: because I sent that to Klin to take the test
Speaker 1: as well. Um, I got accepting responsibility, you got expressing regret,
Speaker 1: and Calin actually got expressing regret as well. Well, all
Speaker 1: the kids get expressing regret. Obviously, I guess, but man,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Like it's funny because Kylin and even
Speaker 1: had a conversation about this at breakfast today. It's like
Speaker 1: I need I don't need you to express or regret
Speaker 1: or or guilt or remorse, Like I know you feel bad,
Speaker 1: but just like tell me you made a mistake and
Speaker 1: let's move past. Like I just need ownership of the
Speaker 1: mistake that was made, like just be like, oh crap,
Speaker 1: I messed up. I'm so sorry, Like uh, it was
Speaker 1: like a bone head move. I want to do it again.
Speaker 1: Like that's all I really need to hear. I don't
Speaker 1: want to say I feel so guilt. See what you
Speaker 1: please forgive me. I'll do anything like I don't want
Speaker 1: to hear that. I don't want you to like gravel.
Speaker 1: I just want you to be like, I messed up,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Yeah. You know. The funny thing about this
Speaker 1: is I feel like I'm more like you with accepting
Speaker 1: responsibility expecting responsibility, than I am expressing regret. Because al right,
Speaker 1: here's the definition of somebody who has uh the apology
Speaker 1: language of expressing regret says, for most people, an apology
Speaker 1: is not really an apology unless they hear the words
Speaker 1: i'm sorry. For many of us, in order to truly forgive,
Speaker 1: we need to see that the person who has injured
Speaker 1: us regrets what they have done. This is the most
Speaker 1: essential of the elements of an apology, but some people
Speaker 1: feel it more keenly than others. And then the definition
Speaker 1: of someone like yourself whose language is accepting responsibility is
Speaker 1: we can all find good reasons and explanations for why
Speaker 1: we behave badly. She was pushing my buttons, I was
Speaker 1: running late, she hurt my feelings. Whatever the reason, it
Speaker 1: doesn't change the fact that what we did was wrong
Speaker 1: or hurtful to a person. Isn't that kind of like
Speaker 1: the same thing oppose to that it is very similar.
Speaker 1: I think I think they're similar. I think they're They're
Speaker 1: a little bit different though. My My big argument against
Speaker 1: expressing regret as an apology a way to apologize, is
Speaker 1: it kind of like it exonerates bad behavior, Like I
Speaker 1: could do whatever I want and then just be like,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I'll never do it again.
Speaker 1: I apologize like I feel so bad, boom forgiven. Like
Speaker 1: it just it's it just seems like a like a
Speaker 1: like a way to wipe the slate clean without really
Speaker 1: putting any work in. Just by saying I'm sorry wipes
Speaker 1: the slate clean, you know, and at least by taking ownership,
Speaker 1: you're like kind of like maybe processing it and internalizing
Speaker 1: it a little bit more and be like, Okay, I
Speaker 1: messed up. And then to me when I hear someone
Speaker 1: say that, I'm like, great, you know you messed up,
Speaker 1: and so now you know, if we're in a similar
Speaker 1: situation again, you know how you already messed up before,
Speaker 1: which makes me think that you are less likely to
Speaker 1: make the same mistake and mess up again. That's kind
Speaker 1: of how I look at it. Oh, I agree with you.
Speaker 1: It's way better to except responsibility but I'm such a
Speaker 1: pansy and those situations, if somebody just expresses regret, I
Speaker 1: immediately forgive them, and even though I know they're gonna
Speaker 1: screw me over later anyway, So it doesn't even matter.
Speaker 1: Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame
Speaker 1: on me. But I mean, I guess it's a good thing,
Speaker 1: Like obviously you want to be able to have like empathy,
Speaker 1: uh and forgive people like that. And I that's so
Speaker 1: an extent to an extent totally, and it definitely depends
Speaker 1: like a lot of the questions on the quiz um
Speaker 1: some of them and you're like, like a lot of
Speaker 1: the times I wanted to answer like I don't care
Speaker 1: enough about this, like you don't need to apologize, and
Speaker 1: then some of them were like pretty severe, um, And
Speaker 1: so it was just one of those things where it's like,
Speaker 1: obviously it depends on a case by case basis, but
Speaker 1: it's interesting. So check it out. It's at the Five
Speaker 1: Love Languages website. It's the apology quiz um. I got
Speaker 1: accepting responsibility, Jared got expressing regret along with Kaylin. I
Speaker 1: was hoping that you were gonna have Ashley ticket because
Speaker 1: I'm curious what she would be too. What do you
Speaker 1: think she would be? I think that Ashley would be
Speaker 1: I don't know, probably the same as me expressing regret
Speaker 1: because I don't know, I mean genuinely repenting and that
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like her, requesting forgiveness that doesn't sound like her,
Speaker 1: and then accepting responsibility. She's more like me. If somebody
Speaker 1: just says I'm sorry, She's like, okay, that's fine and
Speaker 1: just moves on. But let's ask our our guest, Guy Winch,
Speaker 1: about this. I want to get him on the podcast
Speaker 1: as well. Of course, he's the host of Deer Therapists
Speaker 1: the podcast, so we're gonna have Guy coming up in
Speaker 1: just a second. But before he comes onto the podcast,
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break. Hey, welcome back to help
Speaker 1: I suck at dating. We have our very special guest,
Speaker 1: Guy Winch joining us. He is, of course, taping season
Speaker 1: two of his I Heart Radio podcast Dear Therapist with
Speaker 1: co host Laurie, which, of course you can go listen
Speaker 1: to wherever you listen to your podcast. He's a licensed psychologist,
Speaker 1: Guy Winch. Ladies and gentlemen, Guy, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us today. Thank you for having me. It's
Speaker 1: a pleasure. Thanks. It's always so weird introducing people over
Speaker 1: zoom because like we're in the where we're in the
Speaker 1: like the the podcast studio. People like applause. There's more
Speaker 1: people now. It's like, hey, hey, I was giving them
Speaker 1: some snaps over here. I think snapps are like the
Speaker 1: that's the new applause. I think, yeah, So Guy, tell
Speaker 1: us a little bit about what you do and what
Speaker 1: you talk about on Dear Therapists. I'm a psychologist. I
Speaker 1: write an advice column for Ted called Dear Guy, and
Speaker 1: I do this podcast with Lori Gottlieber's advice column is
Speaker 1: for the Atlantic, and so with both therapists, what we
Speaker 1: do is we bring on our guests every week, we
Speaker 1: read their letter, then we discuss it as a therapist consultation,
Speaker 1: so you get to be a fly on the wall
Speaker 1: and here how therapists talk about things. Then we bring
Speaker 1: the person on into an actual session with them. Then
Speaker 1: we give them actionable advice they have to do within
Speaker 1: a week. Then we unpack it as therapists do when
Speaker 1: you get to hear that, and then we have them
Speaker 1: come back, which is what the what's different about our show.
Speaker 1: We have them come back and tell us, so did
Speaker 1: they do it and how did it go and what happened,
Speaker 1: and then we have a discussion about that. So you
Speaker 1: actually get to hear full arc of what their issue is,
Speaker 1: what we think their issue is, and then we tell
Speaker 1: them to do stuff and they do it and we
Speaker 1: hear how it went. What types of issues do you
Speaker 1: typically see these couples having, No, it's not couples. It's individuals. Mostly.
Speaker 1: We have a few couples, but it can be we
Speaker 1: did a mother daughter recently. It can be two people. Um.
Speaker 1: But really it's it's advice. So it's pretty much everything.
Speaker 1: It can be about relationships, it can be about work,
Speaker 1: it can be about the heartbreak, it can be about dating.
Speaker 1: We've got a lot of dating stuff. Um. So really
Speaker 1: it's about, um, pretty much anything you would expect to
Speaker 1: talk to a therapist about or write an advice columnist about. So,
Speaker 1: can you give me an example of like some of
Speaker 1: the stories that you've heard and then some of the
Speaker 1: advice that you give them, And then has anybody failed?
Speaker 1: Has anybody not come back a week later? Or is
Speaker 1: a week a long enough time for someone to accomplish
Speaker 1: what you're asking them to do. First of all, that's
Speaker 1: a good question. So we as you know, when you
Speaker 1: do therapy, you it's a process. You don't expect somebody
Speaker 1: to have to do something within a week. And also
Speaker 1: you don't expect us to have to as a therapists,
Speaker 1: to be able to tell you how to solve your
Speaker 1: problems in a week. But um, here'sn't it so our
Speaker 1: first episode, I think one of the most popular ones
Speaker 1: is was a woman called Sherina. She was heartbroken, she
Speaker 1: got dumped, and she was trying to figure out like
Speaker 1: what happened, why that keeps happening happening to her and
Speaker 1: we and what it turns out, which is often what
Speaker 1: turns out is somebody comes and writes a lot because
Speaker 1: they think their issue is X, but it turns out
Speaker 1: we think it's something else. And we were talking with
Speaker 1: her about why she doesn't realize that she's trying to
Speaker 1: go for these guys who she's not suited for. They
Speaker 1: have they seem very very different. She's trying to bend
Speaker 1: herself into a pretzel to fit without even asking herself
Speaker 1: whether she wants to, whether they fit her. And so
Speaker 1: there was some unfinished business with this person, and it
Speaker 1: was related to her history with her family, and we
Speaker 1: had her um Actually they had to it's COVID, so
Speaker 1: they had to like exchange the stuff, you know, Like
Speaker 1: he had stuff left at her, she had stuff left
Speaker 1: at his, and then COVID hit, so they weren't able
Speaker 1: to She wasn't able to do that part, but she
Speaker 1: was able to think very differently about what happened. We've
Speaker 1: had one guy, for example, whose wife cheated on him
Speaker 1: and then asked to come back. And how feeling was
Speaker 1: She's back because it's convenient, not because she really loves him,
Speaker 1: And so we had him ask a tough questions like
Speaker 1: do you really care if that guy that you know
Speaker 1: said he wasn't willing to leave his wife for you
Speaker 1: if he said tomorrow that he would, would you go
Speaker 1: with him? Like really ask the tough questions and hear
Speaker 1: what she had to say. So it depends on the case.
Speaker 1: We'll ask people to do certain things. We'll ask people
Speaker 1: to write, people to confront the people with whom they're having.
Speaker 1: The issue really depends on the case. But what's interesting
Speaker 1: about it is that a you really learn something about
Speaker 1: yourself because relationships are pretty universal and the issues are
Speaker 1: pretty universal, but be you get to hear what real
Speaker 1: therapy sounds like, and you get to hear how therapists think.
Speaker 1: And I think that that's a nice window into a process.
Speaker 1: We don't really get to him see or hear much
Speaker 1: about how have you noticed the like the I don't
Speaker 1: want to call them problems, but like the reasons people
Speaker 1: are coming to you guys, have you noticed them shift
Speaker 1: from pre COVID to you know, the past year or
Speaker 1: so of all of this, Like what is there a
Speaker 1: noticeable shift in like the issues that people are looking
Speaker 1: to to amend or is it more of the same stuff?
Speaker 1: You think, well, it's a good question, but actually the
Speaker 1: issues don't change because the issues are the issues, but
Speaker 1: COVID complicates every single one of them almost really right,
Speaker 1: you know, Like one woman for a holiday episode, we
Speaker 1: had a woman who just got divorced, and she and
Speaker 1: her parents divorced, so she usually had to do the
Speaker 1: guilt about do I got to mom? Do I got
Speaker 1: to dad? What do I do? And this one she actually,
Speaker 1: because of college, she actually couldn't, so it was a
Speaker 1: great opportunity for her to reclaim the holidays and actually,
Speaker 1: for the first time in her life do the holidays
Speaker 1: the way she wanted with her friends, and in a
Speaker 1: way that was joyful for her and joyful it was.
Speaker 1: It was great. She She not only sent a follow up,
Speaker 1: she sent us an email with pictures from the zooms
Speaker 1: of everything she did. And she was so excited and thrilled.
Speaker 1: It was really nice to see COVID was an opportunity
Speaker 1: for her in that way. Yeah, yeah, nice, It's it's
Speaker 1: nice to see that people are still being able to
Speaker 1: make the most I guess out of a bad situation. Um,
Speaker 1: what about I've always kind of wondered this, uh so
Speaker 1: before before any of this came about, right, you have
Speaker 1: You've been working I'm sure, uh in psychology and in
Speaker 1: therapy for a long time. How does like becoming a
Speaker 1: quote unquote celebrity therapist in a way or at least
Speaker 1: like like publicizing a lot of your findings and all
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, does that change like your full
Speaker 1: your like your approach to therapy at all or or
Speaker 1: I'm just always so not not confused, but just curious
Speaker 1: about how um it like might affect your just your
Speaker 1: job in general, you know what I mean? Yeah, And
Speaker 1: you know what's interesting about that? My um, I guess
Speaker 1: got more attention when my first TED talk came out,
Speaker 1: it was like five or six years ago, and it
Speaker 1: went viral and uh, you know, it's like hand eleven
Speaker 1: million views and and um. Then another one came out
Speaker 1: and it went viral. And so I get a lot
Speaker 1: of people coming to me, and many of them from internationally,
Speaker 1: and many of them just one a one off session.
Speaker 1: They want one session with me, one hour with me
Speaker 1: to deal with something. And that's not a typical model
Speaker 1: you get in a therapy office, per se. Why I
Speaker 1: love it, um, and why I really like it is
Speaker 1: because as a therapist, usually you have to kind of
Speaker 1: hold back a bit. You have to time what you
Speaker 1: want to say. Is the person ready to hear it
Speaker 1: or not? In an hour, you don't hold back at all.
Speaker 1: I get to kind of really let fly. I get
Speaker 1: to really just put it out there, say exactly what
Speaker 1: I think is going on, blunt as all hell, and
Speaker 1: uh and and that is kind of liberating for me
Speaker 1: as a therapist. And then that transfers very nicely to
Speaker 1: the podcast in that way. You wrote an article on
Speaker 1: Psychology Today entitled why some couples should argue via email,
Speaker 1: which sounds like people shouldn't argue over email, but you
Speaker 1: say they should. Why First of all, Um, email by email,
Speaker 1: I mean email, text, electronically really anything, UM. And I
Speaker 1: can't tell you how many couples argue that way today,
Speaker 1: whether I recommend it or not. They're in the house
Speaker 1: and they're having an argument from different rooms over text
Speaker 1: rather than just get up and talk to one another.
Speaker 1: It's very, very, very common for some couples. It's a
Speaker 1: good idea because those couples are ones in which they
Speaker 1: escalate so quickly. The argument escalates so rapidly when they're
Speaker 1: in person that they don't have time to think to
Speaker 1: edit and texts. Um. Really, because text is more than email.
Speaker 1: Text slows it down. They have to type, it takes
Speaker 1: it makes them slow down, They have to they have
Speaker 1: an opportunity to read what they wrote before they send it.
Speaker 1: If they have the you know, the impulse control to
Speaker 1: do that, it actually slows it down and it prevents escalation.
Speaker 1: You can't just blurt something out in text. You can,
Speaker 1: but then you might think about it and you can.
Speaker 1: You can't stuff words back into your mouth, but you
Speaker 1: can e raise them on a text. So for couples
Speaker 1: who are very fiery who escalate very quickly and go
Speaker 1: from zero to cursing and yelling within six seconds. That
Speaker 1: might be a good idea until they learn how to
Speaker 1: argue more productively. What about that there's that key and
Speaker 1: Peel skit where they're having a communication via text. I
Speaker 1: don't know if you've seen this guy. Uh, And one
Speaker 1: person sends a text that's like completely innocuous and harmless
Speaker 1: and like almost borderline friendly, but then the other person
Speaker 1: receives it as him being like snarky and and and
Speaker 1: standoffish and aggressive. Uh, So what do you say about that?
Speaker 1: Like how how people can misinterpret the texts just by
Speaker 1: simply reading the same words but just in a different tone,
Speaker 1: you know. And it's something that's again ridiculously common. And
Speaker 1: the problem is we don't we we forget, we don't
Speaker 1: remember that in text there is no tonality, there's no
Speaker 1: facial expression. You can't modify what you say by tone.
Speaker 1: You can say things that with tones sound radically different, like, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you haven't asked me that in a whole week,
Speaker 1: you consider very sweetly, or like, you haven't asked me
Speaker 1: that in a week, or you and and how that's
Speaker 1: read depends on the other person, and so we misinterpret,
Speaker 1: miscommunicate both in terms of how we interpret a text
Speaker 1: and set and in terms of how we send and
Speaker 1: what we think our intention is versus what comes across.
Speaker 1: It happens all the time. Now, I just want to
Speaker 1: say one thing. As a therapist, I love texts because
Speaker 1: when people sit in a session and they tell me
Speaker 1: and then they said this, I'm sorry, don't tell me
Speaker 1: what they said. Let me read it, and then I
Speaker 1: can see and I'm like, no, no no, no, I I
Speaker 1: would read that entirely differently because I don't have your baggage,
Speaker 1: so I don't have to it doesn't hit my nerve,
Speaker 1: and then I can read it with a very different
Speaker 1: tone and people go, oh, I never Yeah, I can
Speaker 1: see that now, But it never occurred to me that
Speaker 1: it could be meant entirely in a different manner than
Speaker 1: what I perceived. So people really have to remember that
Speaker 1: it's very inaccurate of communication. Because there's no tonality, no
Speaker 1: facial expression of body language, we can misinterpret easily. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I heard a great piece of advice one time where
Speaker 1: people who rant and rave on Twitter, they say, type
Speaker 1: it out, save it into a draft. Go to sleep.
Speaker 1: If you wake up the next morning and you still
Speaker 1: want to tweet it, then hit the tweet button. Um. Yes,
Speaker 1: So also, doctor, you talk about prioritizing your physical health,
Speaker 1: possibly over your emotional health, which is obviously quite different
Speaker 1: than what we hear a lot. So what do you
Speaker 1: by that, I mean the opposite effect what I what
Speaker 1: I say is that we do that. That is, in
Speaker 1: fact what we do. We tend to prioritize our physical
Speaker 1: health over emotional health, and that's a problem. Sorry, I
Speaker 1: met thee Never mind. So you're saying prioritize your emotional
Speaker 1: health over your physical health, but a lot of people do.
Speaker 1: I am saying, treat them equally. My I'm an identical twin,
Speaker 1: and so that comes from me feeling like, hey, these
Speaker 1: things are like twins are physical and not emotional health.
Speaker 1: We really should be giving them an equal amount of attention.
Speaker 1: But the attention goes to our physical health. When we
Speaker 1: wake up in the morning and you have a twins
Speaker 1: in a muscle, or you're feeling a little off, or
Speaker 1: you have a little bit of a fever or whatever
Speaker 1: it is, you have a thing in your throat, you
Speaker 1: immediately pay attention to it. And you're like, oh, maybe
Speaker 1: I longer running because my my coat is hurting, or
Speaker 1: you know, maybe I better, you know, wear a scarf
Speaker 1: because I've got a little bit of a sore throat.
Speaker 1: We just naturally monitor, right, We we brush our teeth
Speaker 1: and flows twice a day. What is the action we
Speaker 1: do for our emotional health on a daily basis? There's none?
Speaker 1: What isn't What do we teach our kids about emotional hygiene? Nothing.
Speaker 1: There is a way in which we completely ignore our
Speaker 1: emotional and psychological health. We're completely ignorant about it. If
Speaker 1: you get a cut on your arm, if anyone gets
Speaker 1: a cut, they anyone at past the age of whatever
Speaker 1: can tell whether that requires a stitch, a bandage, or
Speaker 1: an emergency room. But when we get hurt emotionally or psychologically,
Speaker 1: we don't even know if it's a wound. We don't
Speaker 1: even know what to do. We are terribly, terribly behind
Speaker 1: my sophistication. I think the issue is that a lot
Speaker 1: of people just don't know what to do. Like with
Speaker 1: physical health, there's you know, you can go to the gym,
Speaker 1: you can go to for a run, you can do
Speaker 1: whatever you need to do. So what are some of
Speaker 1: the things that people can do to help their emotional health. So,
Speaker 1: first of all, there is a ton of information out there,
Speaker 1: and but we tend to not look for it. We
Speaker 1: tend to not and we tend to ignore it when
Speaker 1: we hear it because we think, you know, that's his bullshit.
Speaker 1: We don't pay attention to it, and and we should.
Speaker 1: So for example, one of the when it comes, let's say,
Speaker 1: to rejection. It's one of the things I write about
Speaker 1: in in in one of my books and else from
Speaker 1: first AIG. So rejection, when we get rejected, one of
Speaker 1: the most instinctual things we do romantically, right dating show Romantically,
Speaker 1: one of the instinctual things we do is we start
Speaker 1: to figure out why it happened, and that usually goes
Speaker 1: to I'm not this enough for I'm not that enough,
Speaker 1: for if I were only this or that, then the
Speaker 1: person wouldn't have rejected me. We we literally catalog all
Speaker 1: are are perceived faults and shortcomings. And that's at a
Speaker 1: time when our self esteem is hurting, and we're actually
Speaker 1: hitting it and hurting it even more when it's already hurting,
Speaker 1: when we should actually be doing the opposite. When you
Speaker 1: get rejected, you should revive your self esteem and your
Speaker 1: feelings of self worth by actually focusing on what you
Speaker 1: do bring to the table to feel better about yourself,
Speaker 1: not focusing on what you don't to feel worse. Um
Speaker 1: and and so it's just in an instinct we have
Speaker 1: which we need to override, but if we don't know
Speaker 1: to overwrite, it will indulge in the self pity and
Speaker 1: the self bashing at the time where we need to
Speaker 1: do exactly the opposite. Yeah, that's interesting to me, just
Speaker 1: because I equate. I think maybe I'm just vain a
Speaker 1: lot of my emotional health to my physical health, Like
Speaker 1: when i feel like I'm gaining weight or I'm not
Speaker 1: working out a lot, I feel mentally a lot worse.
Speaker 1: So I feel like they almost go hand in hand
Speaker 1: at times. You talked about your physical appearance and not
Speaker 1: your physical health because where pounds doesn't necessarily do that
Speaker 1: much for your physical health. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the image. Yeah, more image, right, and
Speaker 1: for you and look, and we each have different things.
Speaker 1: So so for somebody the for somebody for whom the
Speaker 1: image is important, it's a part of their work and
Speaker 1: it's an important part of the of what they do,
Speaker 1: and it's important. That's going to matter a lot um
Speaker 1: And for somebody who's an accountant, um, their ability to
Speaker 1: operate with numbers and pay attention to detail is going
Speaker 1: to matter a lot. Right. So it kind of depends.
Speaker 1: But our physical health and our emotional health fully entwined.
Speaker 1: Here's one example. UM, when people are lonely, we tell
Speaker 1: to think of loneliness. Says, well, you know, that's something
Speaker 1: that happens to the elderly. The loneliest people these days
Speaker 1: are eighteen to thirty four year olds. That's the loneliest group,
Speaker 1: the people who report being most lonely, way more than
Speaker 1: the geriatrics. Why do you think that is? I'll say
Speaker 1: in a minute. But here's the finding. When you're chronically lonely,
Speaker 1: it increases your likelihood of an early death by thirty
Speaker 1: something percent. Lonely people die sooner, get sicker, live shorter lives,
Speaker 1: have more dementia, and I could go on and on
Speaker 1: and on. It does a massive number. It literally kills
Speaker 1: you over time. We don't think of it. We think
Speaker 1: of it as a psychological emotional thing, but it's very
Speaker 1: much also a physical thing. Because those those two systems
Speaker 1: are tightly tightly linked. Now, why young people are feeling
Speaker 1: more lonely these days is because loneliness is a comparison
Speaker 1: between what your expected emotional connection to others are and
Speaker 1: what your reality is, and when you're really that is
Speaker 1: I have five dred friends and one thousand followers and
Speaker 1: all these contexts, and I don't feel that any one
Speaker 1: of them really sees me. I don't feel like the phone,
Speaker 1: you know, I haven't gotten the text. No one's chipped
Speaker 1: in on me in two days, and supposedly all these
Speaker 1: people around me, I guess no one cares. And when
Speaker 1: I look on social media, everyone else seems delighted, happy
Speaker 1: and connected. It makes you feel really, really, really bad.
Speaker 1: And so that social media can be something that is
Speaker 1: a comparison tool, and it can make people feel like
Speaker 1: crap because when they're feeling bad, everyone else looks happy.
Speaker 1: It's highly curated and that's why. But that's not something
Speaker 1: you think about when you're feeling lonely and invisible. Well
Speaker 1: let's talk about that then. So you talk about emotionally healthy, right, Uh,
Speaker 1: what what do you think about people dating that are
Speaker 1: in an emotionally unhealthy state? Like, do you think that's
Speaker 1: something they should be doing. Do you think they should
Speaker 1: they should prioritize that first and then start dating, or
Speaker 1: do you think it's okay for them to kind of
Speaker 1: pursue you and look for a partner while they're in
Speaker 1: like that vulnerable unhealthy state. It's a great question. I
Speaker 1: think it depends on what the emotionally unhealthy state is
Speaker 1: actually about in that way, because if it's about, for example,
Speaker 1: feeling lonely or feeling a lack of companionship or really
Speaker 1: wanting a partner not having one, actually dating could be
Speaker 1: the very thing they need to feel better. If it's
Speaker 1: about they're thoroughly depressed but not for that reason, or
Speaker 1: they're dealing with an anxiety situation, or they're having other
Speaker 1: kinds of problems of grief or whatever, um, then maybe
Speaker 1: they need to get to a better place to be
Speaker 1: more emotionally available. Um. But it really it's it's one
Speaker 1: of those it depends on swers the psychologists give all
Speaker 1: the time, and I apologize for that, it kind of does.
Speaker 1: Are there are there signs that we could look for
Speaker 1: in like partners or other people that might signal to
Speaker 1: us that they're emotionally unhealthy in any sort of way? Yeah,
Speaker 1: but here's the thing. You know, research on couples shows
Speaker 1: that if you watch five minutes of a couple having
Speaker 1: an argument, UM, a couple of therapists like myself can
Speaker 1: predict within nineties something percenter accuracy whether that couple is
Speaker 1: going to get divorced, because the signs are very obvious,
Speaker 1: and the signs and dating are very obvious. I always
Speaker 1: say that dating is like um and and relationship dynamics.
Speaker 1: Your relationship is like cement. When the cement is wet,
Speaker 1: you can form it, you can make changes in it.
Speaker 1: But when it's dry, you're really got to take a
Speaker 1: hammer and chisel to make any changes in it. And
Speaker 1: and when you're dating, the cement drives very very quickly,
Speaker 1: So within a very quick amount of time, you've fallen
Speaker 1: into a specific pattern with that person. And now to
Speaker 1: change that pattern is gonna be much more difficult than
Speaker 1: if you have changed at the beginning. And one of
Speaker 1: the mistakes a lot of dating people make it is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that bothers me, but I'll deal with it later. It's
Speaker 1: gonna be way harder to deal with it later. I
Speaker 1: want to kind of take a couple of strapy now
Speaker 1: with with calin and see, uh, get someone's professional opinion.
Speaker 1: I think it'd be curious just to kind of get
Speaker 1: a better understanding for it, because, like you said, it's like,
Speaker 1: especially when you start dating someone, I feel like we
Speaker 1: do a lot of these things sub conscious lee, uh,
Speaker 1: and it kind of takes someone like a third party
Speaker 1: to kind of observe it, uh and and tell you
Speaker 1: what you're doing, because who the heck is going to
Speaker 1: be able to identify those things themselves? Most most of
Speaker 1: the time, I would say, right, well you can, but
Speaker 1: you actually have to stop for a minute and talk
Speaker 1: about it together, because you know, she probably has observations
Speaker 1: about you. You probably have observations about her. Some of
Speaker 1: them are occurred, some of them not, but the discussion
Speaker 1: could be interesting. Gotcha have you? Are you familiar to
Speaker 1: all with the five love languages and like that whole
Speaker 1: kind of yeah. Yeah, So Jared and I just before,
Speaker 1: just before bringing you on, we were talking about how
Speaker 1: just yesterday we did the forms of apology or what
Speaker 1: was it called Jerry or something like that, right, it
Speaker 1: was your apology language. Apparently there's a different apology languages,
Speaker 1: and Dana and I took a quiz to tell us
Speaker 1: which language apology language we speak and so and so
Speaker 1: there are five of them. I'm sure, I'm sure you
Speaker 1: know them. But it's expressing regret, accept responsibility, make restitution,
Speaker 1: genuinely repent or request forgiveness. Uh and so, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Just an interesting thing that Jared and I were talking
Speaker 1: about and I had my partner do hers as well.
Speaker 1: Hers was expressed regret and so is Jared's mind was
Speaker 1: accept responsibility. Um, how how do you kind of feel
Speaker 1: when you maybe not even couples, but just like when
Speaker 1: you see people that maybe struggle with with that type
Speaker 1: of stuff like forgiveness, um, accepting responsibility, expressing and get
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. Do you see that kind
Speaker 1: of as like a roadblock in couples ever? Oh? For sure.
Speaker 1: And I see there was a roadblock a knife and
Speaker 1: people come to do do it. But I have a slightly
Speaker 1: different take on it. My take on apologies as the following.
Speaker 1: The mistake people make when they're apologizing is they make
Speaker 1: apology about them. In other words, they offer the rationalizations
Speaker 1: and the excuses and the context of why I did
Speaker 1: what I did, etcetera. If if it's an authentic apology,
Speaker 1: if you're really trying to get the person to forgive you,
Speaker 1: the apology needs to be about them. In other words,
Speaker 1: you need to be able to convey to them that
Speaker 1: you get what their experience was, what they felt about
Speaker 1: what you did, not why you did what you did,
Speaker 1: but if they felt about it. If you can convey, hey,
Speaker 1: I can understand how upsetting it must be that I
Speaker 1: did it, and how frustrated you must have been, because
Speaker 1: I know you've said that to me before and you
Speaker 1: have to keep doing it and I'm trying not to.
Speaker 1: But I can see how upsetting that must have been
Speaker 1: for you, and I can tell you I'm really gonna
Speaker 1: try harder. If that person feels like, oh, yeah, you
Speaker 1: know what, you really do get it, they'll forgive you.
Speaker 1: If they feel you're just talking about you, they might
Speaker 1: say it, but they won't really. So if I had
Speaker 1: a guess, I would say, guys, apology language is genuinely repenting.
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go ahead. That's my guess. Actually, my
Speaker 1: answer to those five is all of the above. Okay,
Speaker 1: that's fair, that's kind of the beautiful. That's kind of
Speaker 1: the beautiful thing about it. Right, There is no wrong answer.
Speaker 1: They're all right, just based on No, I'm saying you
Speaker 1: need all of those components as research. There's science about
Speaker 1: what constitutes a useful apology when they really work, and
Speaker 1: it's when they have all of those ingredients. Okay, that's fair,
Speaker 1: I would agree. Well, doctor, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: joining us today. We really appreciate your insight. Make sure
Speaker 1: everybody listening go check out your guy which is podcast
Speaker 1: of course, it is called Dear Arapists, which you can
Speaker 1: listen to anywhere you get podcasts. You can also go
Speaker 1: to Guy Winch dot com check out his books. You
Speaker 1: have tons of good stuff up there. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for joining us, doctor, We really appreciate it. My
Speaker 1: pleasure and thanks for having me. Hey, Ricky, it's your
Speaker 1: birthday today. Happy birthday, birthday all right, and we are
Speaker 1: back after Jared and Ashley's wonderful cameo moment. Thank you
Speaker 1: for sticking around through that. If you guys want the books,
Speaker 1: you can go to cameo dot com. Ashley and Jared.
Speaker 1: We do birthday shout outs, we can sing, we can dance,
Speaker 1: we can do whatever you'd like. Really, that was that
Speaker 1: was tough to get through. But hey, we're all stronger
Speaker 1: people because of it, and before we get into the emails,
Speaker 1: I would like to say, email us your dating situations.
Speaker 1: I suck at dating at iHeart media dot com. Good, bad, ugly.
Speaker 1: We want to hear them all. I suck at dating
Speaker 1: at iHeart media dot com. Shoot us over some emails. Uh, Mark,
Speaker 1: I think I heard to chime in. Do you want
Speaker 1: to get to our first email? I do. These are
Speaker 1: challenging today, but hopefully you know they're looking for the
Speaker 1: male perspective. Hopefully we can give him some. Trina, Yeah,
Speaker 1: we do, but I'm not sure what to say about
Speaker 1: these dudes. Trina says, I've been married for five years now.
Speaker 1: When we were dating, and what made me want to
Speaker 1: marry this man in the first place was his constant
Speaker 1: desire to speak, touch, a firmer relationship. He was low
Speaker 1: key obsessed with me, but I loved it. Also might
Speaker 1: be important to note I was his first everything girlfriend, kiss,
Speaker 1: et cetera. So we got married, and I noticed on
Speaker 1: our honeymoon he's already different. A few months into marriage,
Speaker 1: he decides he's made a huge mistake. It's too hard
Speaker 1: being a husband. He doesn't feel the same about me.
Speaker 1: So my question is, how is this even normal. How
Speaker 1: can the switch be flipped so quickly, so dramatically? Is
Speaker 1: this a man's psychology? That the chase is over and
Speaker 1: now it's boring? But what do you guys answer? I
Speaker 1: already asked some questions, like she's still married apparently because
Speaker 1: five years five years now, and it was right after
Speaker 1: the honeymoon that things kind of fell apart. So I'm
Speaker 1: not sure what's going on, but she'd like to get
Speaker 1: some inside of their husband's psyche. Poor Trina, you've been married.
Speaker 1: I hope you haven't been miserable for five years. I
Speaker 1: would be depressing. I think this is a classic case
Speaker 1: of of like I don't know if you guys discover this,
Speaker 1: but like with your first everything, kiss, girlfriend, taking your virginity,
Speaker 1: so on and so forth, like you you you, I
Speaker 1: think you get like lost in the moment a little bit.
Speaker 1: They always talk about like puppy love. I feel like
Speaker 1: that's like to the tenth degree when you're dealing with
Speaker 1: someone who's like been your first everything, and then I
Speaker 1: think you kind of discover, well, wait a minute, like
Speaker 1: what are other people? Like? You get curious and you
Speaker 1: want to kind of figure things out on your own.
Speaker 1: That's what happened with me at least where I was
Speaker 1: dating this girl, she's my first everything. And then I
Speaker 1: got my early twenties and is like, well, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm attracted to other women and I kind of want
Speaker 1: to play the field a little bit and I want
Speaker 1: to date around. And so I found myself kind of
Speaker 1: falling out of love with my first girlfriend because of this.
Speaker 1: And I'm curious if this happened to this guy too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I think you just, uh if that's the case,
Speaker 1: which I mean, well, honestly, probably is pretty pretty good
Speaker 1: chance that that is the case. It's like, why would
Speaker 1: you start feeling that after the like the marriage though,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like especially on the honeymoon
Speaker 1: so quick. It's just like it's just like such bad
Speaker 1: timing on his part, you know, like if you're gonna
Speaker 1: have those feelings of maybe curiosity or or whatever, just
Speaker 1: like have them earlier before you get married to someone,
Speaker 1: um to kind of save everyone in the heartache. But
Speaker 1: I agree with you, Like my first girlfriend and the
Speaker 1: girl that I lost my virginity to all these things,
Speaker 1: like I was insane about her, like like like what
Speaker 1: would have done anything? Like I cry, like I don't
Speaker 1: cry ever anymore as an adult. Uh, not bragging about that.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's a good thing. I just want
Speaker 1: to say, Um, but this girl may be so freaking emotional.
Speaker 1: All the freaking time I was crying about it. I
Speaker 1: was like my gut was in knots all the time
Speaker 1: about it. Um. And I probably felt the same way
Speaker 1: that this guy felt about you before you got married.
Speaker 1: But like to Jared's point, like eventually that stuff disappeared. Uh,
Speaker 1: and I realized, you know, for whatever reason, that we
Speaker 1: weren't meant to be together. Uh. I didn't marry the
Speaker 1: girl after I realized it before I realized that, fortunately
Speaker 1: for me. But I mean, I don't know. I don't Mark,
Speaker 1: what kind of advice do you have for Trina here?
Speaker 1: That's the saying. My only guest with this guy is
Speaker 1: that he's young. I'm wondering if he's young, But I
Speaker 1: don't know what to do at this point. Guessing that
Speaker 1: you're five years in and you're not having a great
Speaker 1: time and it's kind of the same as it's been
Speaker 1: for the past four and a half years. You guys
Speaker 1: are gonna have to talk to somebody, and they're gonna
Speaker 1: have to go to couple's counseling and and not rule
Speaker 1: out maybe moving on from each other. If he's really
Speaker 1: not the man you dated, then that's not on you.
Speaker 1: You've clearly tried on this. If it's just not happening,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what else you can do. I question, guys,
Speaker 1: if a guy is or if somebody in a relationship
Speaker 1: is obsessed with the other one while you're dating, is
Speaker 1: that a red flag and shouldn't be treated as a
Speaker 1: red flag? I actually, yeah, I think it might be
Speaker 1: a little bit of a red flag because I feel
Speaker 1: like that just flames out so quickly. I mean, with
Speaker 1: the example of Trina right now, that it could cause
Speaker 1: some issues where you're like, this is a girl I'm
Speaker 1: gonna marry. I'm all in, and then the day comes
Speaker 1: and you start having doubts, and then you, guys get married.
Speaker 1: I'm curious about if this guy was having doubts before
Speaker 1: the wedding and he just never vocalized it, and then
Speaker 1: he got married and realized I made a huge mistake,
Speaker 1: and that's why it seemed like he flipped switch, because
Speaker 1: his mood just immediately changed realizing, oh what am I
Speaker 1: getting myself into? Um I think it's I think the
Speaker 1: argument could be made for that, but because Actually was
Speaker 1: obsessed with you, yeah it was. It was wildly unhealthy.
Speaker 1: She should I told her that a million times. I'm like, listen,
Speaker 1: you don't understand. I'm crazy. I'm a psycho, like I'm
Speaker 1: a dude, Like I'm not this guy you're building up
Speaker 1: in your head. And she's like, now you're perfect and
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with bla and it's like okay. And then luckily,
Speaker 1: after years of friendships, she started kind of like those
Speaker 1: feelings started subsiding, and we still had strong feelings for
Speaker 1: each other, so it kind of worked out in the end.
Speaker 1: But I still say to this day, if we got
Speaker 1: together when she was in that first phase, I don't
Speaker 1: know if it would have been a healthy relationship to
Speaker 1: start off with, because those feelings would have subsided. And
Speaker 1: I feel that, like we you know, I just feel
Speaker 1: like it would have been a vastly different relationship and
Speaker 1: than what we have now. So do you think Actually
Speaker 1: is less obsessed with you now than she used to be? Hey, Ashley, No,
Speaker 1: she went to walk Lois never mind. I would say,
Speaker 1: I know, I would say she's less obsessed with me
Speaker 1: now than she was before. Not in a bad way. No,
Speaker 1: I think that's healthy. I think that's healthy too. I
Speaker 1: mean that's kind of the same situation that tritons and
Speaker 1: he was obsessed with her and now he's not. It's
Speaker 1: funny because I kind of think of my situation the same.
Speaker 1: Like when Caleb and I first started dating, I got
Speaker 1: the feeling that she was obsessed with me. Uh and
Speaker 1: now she like, you know, she still likes me. He'll
Speaker 1: get me wrong, but she definitely that obsesses me. Like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it definitely is something that that fades.
Speaker 1: And I think that I don't know, maybe Trina maybe
Speaker 1: it happened so quickly or something like that that that's
Speaker 1: why she's thrown off by it. But I think that
Speaker 1: what you guys have both thought as the normal arc.
Speaker 1: I think, you know, they're obsessed with the idea of you,
Speaker 1: and then when they get to know the real you,
Speaker 1: if they're still in love with you, that's a very
Speaker 1: good thing, and that fades. Now it's faded for this guy.
Speaker 1: I don't know what's happening nowadays, but I'm I'm concerned
Speaker 1: for the future of Trina's marriage. So, Mark, are you
Speaker 1: obsessed with your wife. I think. So, here's this tangential topic.
Speaker 1: But on that point, I work with somebody who says,
Speaker 1: and I think she may be right about this. When
Speaker 1: she first said, her to kind of scoffed, but she
Speaker 1: may be right that the best relationships the man is
Speaker 1: slightly more in love than the woman. Interesting. Ashley tells
Speaker 1: me that all the freaking time. She's like, you're supposed
Speaker 1: to be more obsessed with me than I am obsessed
Speaker 1: with you. And I was like, well, I'm sorry, that's
Speaker 1: not the way this one worked with my wife and
Speaker 1: choose with me. I need an explanation. Why is that
Speaker 1: the Why is that true? I'm not sure why, but
Speaker 1: I think there is something to that. I think it
Speaker 1: creates more stability somehow, because if the the woman is
Speaker 1: more obsessed, I think it maybe makes the guy back
Speaker 1: off a little bit, or maybe increases wandering eye. I'd
Speaker 1: also like to see the statistics in terms of I
Speaker 1: mean we're really generalizing here, but like a relationship between
Speaker 1: a man and a woman, the statistics of who ends
Speaker 1: the relationship more the man or the woman. I would
Speaker 1: be willing to bet that the majority of the time
Speaker 1: it's the man. Who initiates ending the relationship rather than
Speaker 1: the women. And in that case, I do find it
Speaker 1: healthier if you're in a relationship where the man is
Speaker 1: more obsessed with the female because most likely he's probably
Speaker 1: the one who's gonna end the relationship. Does that make
Speaker 1: sense right? Well? To Mark's point the wandering I I
Speaker 1: think men are more likely to have have a wandering eye,
Speaker 1: and so by being more obsessed with the other person
Speaker 1: than the wife, is uh, it kind of like brains
Speaker 1: that in a little bit, so I can see that
Speaker 1: being And to bounce off your point, I don't even
Speaker 1: just mean like the man broaches the conversation. I mean
Speaker 1: the man could do something to jeopardize the relationship. First,
Speaker 1: That's what I'm including in my argument, Like you said,
Speaker 1: possibly cheating or doing something stupid. Well, anyways, let's let's
Speaker 1: let's help train out. So she wants to know if
Speaker 1: it's normal, She wants to know how the flip the
Speaker 1: switch could be flipped so dramatically, and she wants to
Speaker 1: know if it's just a man psychology that the chase
Speaker 1: is over and now it's boring, And I think I
Speaker 1: don't think those things. Yeah, exactly, I don't think I
Speaker 1: think all those things are true. I just think that
Speaker 1: there has to be more to it than that as well, um,
Speaker 1: because it's like, yes, obviously everyone likes well not everyone,
Speaker 1: but the chase is the fun part, Like that's the exhilarating, exciting.
Speaker 1: That's why he was obsessed with you because it was
Speaker 1: like exciting and and uncertain and like he wasn't sure
Speaker 1: what was gonna happen. And then marriage came along and
Speaker 1: obviously you're like, okay, cool, now we're together for life.
Speaker 1: And so I think the excitement uh not disappeared, but
Speaker 1: maybe it changed to something else. And so it's just
Speaker 1: a matter of like kind of tapping into what those
Speaker 1: feelings would be. I mean, I I don't know, five
Speaker 1: years is a long time. If if you started feeling
Speaker 1: um reserved about this on your honeymoon and then five
Speaker 1: years later you're still together obviously, like he's still with
Speaker 1: you two, so you guys both still love each other.
Speaker 1: I think you just need to have a conversation about it.
Speaker 1: All right. I'm totally gonna name drop right here, but
Speaker 1: this person gave me a great piece of advice one time.
Speaker 1: Mr Rob Thomas told me one time he said, with
Speaker 1: the person that you're marrying. Don't ever forget that this
Speaker 1: is the person you're going to be having a conversation
Speaker 1: with every day for the rest of your life. So
Speaker 1: make sure, whoever you marry, it's someone you want to
Speaker 1: talk to every day for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1: And I was like, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I found this on psych central dot com. Of all
Speaker 1: divorces are initiated by women. See that's an interesting stat though,
Speaker 1: because sure the divorce might be initiated by the women,
Speaker 1: but how many of those guys did something stupid to
Speaker 1: jeopardize That's very true. And also for non married relationships,
Speaker 1: it's even. It's there's no statistical difference. They're interesting. A
Speaker 1: lot of minution there, though, I'm sure a lot of
Speaker 1: Next email also challenging. It's from Alexandra. I've been dating
Speaker 1: my boyfriend for over a year now. My biggest issue
Speaker 1: in our relationship is he can't commit to taking trips
Speaker 1: with me. He always looks into them with me, but
Speaker 1: when it comes time to book, he pushes it off.
Speaker 1: Flash too now, we were supposed to go on a
Speaker 1: weekend trip this month, and then when it came time
Speaker 1: to book, he wouldn't book because he said he had
Speaker 1: all these unexpected expenses and he couldn't afford it. But
Speaker 1: that night he was booking a plane ticket and planning
Speaker 1: a golf trip for his cousin's bachelor party and told
Speaker 1: me we'll do something in May. I promise. Money seems
Speaker 1: to be no issue when it comes to things you
Speaker 1: want to do, or his family or with his friends,
Speaker 1: But when it comes to me and doing things together,
Speaker 1: he complains about spending too much money. I need a
Speaker 1: man's opinion, please, m M. I see no red flags here.
Speaker 1: I'm not even joking like I mean in terms of yes,
Speaker 1: he needs to put more effort into the relationship, but
Speaker 1: in terms of like him trying to cover something up
Speaker 1: or him doing something nefarious, I think this is the
Speaker 1: most guy thing I've ever heard in my entire life.
Speaker 1: He's willing to spend money on bro trips because he
Speaker 1: wants to go and hang out with his friends, But
Speaker 1: he's not going to spend money on going on a
Speaker 1: weekend getaway with you because he spends all his time
Speaker 1: with you. That's his rationale. He's like, well, babe, why
Speaker 1: would we pay hundreds of thousands or hundreds or thousands
Speaker 1: of dollars to go on this getaway weekend where we
Speaker 1: could just hang out in here, which is what we
Speaker 1: do constantly. But he feels like he's valid in spending
Speaker 1: money on his bachelor trip because he never sees his friends.
Speaker 1: I think that's what he's thinking, right. Um. It's funny
Speaker 1: because listening to Mark read that for the first half,
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, he's probably like broke and he
Speaker 1: just doesn't want to admit it or something. But then
Speaker 1: obviously it kind of unravels to him talking a lot
Speaker 1: about money, So that's not the case. I agree with Jared.
Speaker 1: I mean, uh, it's like, if you guys are spending
Speaker 1: a lot of time together, what is the appeal. It's
Speaker 1: It's funny because Caitlin and I talked about this, not
Speaker 1: talk about it all the time, but um, it's been
Speaker 1: a point of conversation before where she's like, I want
Speaker 1: to like have a weekend get away up into Malibu,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, what is in Malibu that's not in
Speaker 1: Venice where we live every day of our lives together, Like,
Speaker 1: what what are we going to get up there that
Speaker 1: we're not getting down here? And She's just like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I just want to get away, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: but what, like, what what are we what are we
Speaker 1: getting out of it? Um? Long, sure enough, every time
Speaker 1: we have that conversation, we end up doing what she
Speaker 1: wants to do, So we go on these trips anyways. Um,
Speaker 1: But I mean I agree with Jared. It's just like,
Speaker 1: you know, you're spending a lot of times together as is,
Speaker 1: and he sees that kind of as like him doing
Speaker 1: what he not like needs to do. That kind of
Speaker 1: makes it sound the good shore. But but he wants
Speaker 1: to like use his getaways and his trips like with
Speaker 1: his buddies, with his family, that type of thing. I
Speaker 1: don't never I don't necessarilygree with Jared. I do think
Speaker 1: it is a red flag, but um, it's a small
Speaker 1: flag or it's like a you know, it's not a
Speaker 1: very dark shade of red. It's not the biggest deal
Speaker 1: in the world. But I definitely see it causing some
Speaker 1: issues if it if it persists. Why why is it
Speaker 1: a red flag because she's not a priority for him? Well,
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, I guess like it's it's always a
Speaker 1: red flag if someone wants to do something and the
Speaker 1: other person isn't willing to do it for him, especially
Speaker 1: something as harmless as this, where it's like, just spend
Speaker 1: a couple extra dollars, get a hotel, drive up the
Speaker 1: coast an hour. You know, like you might not even
Speaker 1: like like the idea of it, but it's it's kind
Speaker 1: of similar to like me and Kalen, like I never
Speaker 1: really liked the idea of those little baby trips, but
Speaker 1: then we like leave on them and go on them,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, this is fine, Like this is fine.
Speaker 1: I can see why you wanted to do this, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. So it's like it's not like
Speaker 1: the worst thing in the world at the end of
Speaker 1: the day. In my opinion. That's flag, Jared. I mean sure,
Speaker 1: if you want to like a little putt putt flag,
Speaker 1: like a tiny this is more like I I agree, Like, listen,
Speaker 1: this guy needs to put more. This guy just needs
Speaker 1: to like not be a stupid guy and be like,
Speaker 1: oh wait a minute, I gotta maybe I should take
Speaker 1: her on a weekend trip and you know, make her happy.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, you know, if there's a playoff
Speaker 1: game on and it's your anniversary, like it sucks you
Speaker 1: gotta go to dinner and you know, you gotta go
Speaker 1: to dinner with here, Like it's just that's the way
Speaker 1: the world works, you know, So like this guy just
Speaker 1: needs to have that moment of lightbulb and be like
Speaker 1: all right, yeah, wait a minute, I gotta we gotta
Speaker 1: go somewhere. I gotta make her happy. But I certainly
Speaker 1: don't think like something like sketchy is going on. I think, Alex,
Speaker 1: I think you should just like tell him like, this
Speaker 1: means a lot to me. It would mean a lot
Speaker 1: to me if we went somewhere together to bond. It
Speaker 1: does seem like he's taken her for granted a little bit,
Speaker 1: which you know, guys probably young early in a relationship.
Speaker 1: I get that, but so Jered is like it's like
Speaker 1: a red flag with a little one in a club sandwich. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the little one that you you put like in the
Speaker 1: picture perfectly, Okay. I mean I think, like I agree
Speaker 1: with Mark. I think that he is taking you for granted.
Speaker 1: And I don't think that you should like resort by
Speaker 1: saying something like you like we do a trip like this,
Speaker 1: or we break up, Like, don't give that kind of ultimatum.
Speaker 1: But he probably knows that, like he doesn't have to
Speaker 1: take you on these trips and you're still going to
Speaker 1: be his girlfriend at the end of the day. You know,
Speaker 1: not necessarily a bad thing. Not necessarily a good thing either,
Speaker 1: but uh, you know, I don't know, do you guys
Speaker 1: agree with that? Yeah? A little pickle flag. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: the pickle flag. And also it's good to change it
Speaker 1: up every once in a while, especially you know, how
Speaker 1: do I put this tactfully? Um? You know, the the
Speaker 1: intimacy hotel intimacy is way better than home intimacy because
Speaker 1: because you can just you can clean it with anything,
Speaker 1: you can rub it on the sheets, on the curtains.
Speaker 1: I mean, Mark, that's that was a bold statement, but
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. Well I think we have different reasons,
Speaker 1: but eventually, just make sure you leave a tip at
Speaker 1: the end the day. All right, Well that's gonna do it.
Speaker 1: For this week's episode of Help I Suck at Dating?
Speaker 1: What a way to end it. Thank you A big
Speaker 1: thank you to our guest guy which make sure you
Speaker 1: go listen to his podcast, Dear Therapist wherever you listen
Speaker 1: to your podcast. Um, and then yeah, I think that's
Speaker 1: gonna really do it. Dean. Thank you for being the
Speaker 1: wonderful human being that you are, UM Ashley, thanks for
Speaker 1: constantly interrupting our podcast. Uh and make sure you guys
Speaker 1: tune in next week. Were hopefully we all suck just
Speaker 1: a little less. Follow help by Suck at Dating on
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio or wherever you listen to podcast