1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: A Zone Media, Robert Evans here it could happen here, 2 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: a podcast about things falling apart, And today I wanted 3 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: to take some time to talk about Ukraine, and particularly 4 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: to talk about the sort of cultural place that the 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: Ukrainian resistance against Russia expanded invasion by Russia has taken 6 00:00:23,920 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: in American politics and in American kind of political culture. Obviously, 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: I am recording this within a few hours of another 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: attempted assassination on former President Trump, this one by a 9 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: guy who, among a confusing milange of other things, claimed 10 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: to be a major advocate of Ukrainian sovereignty and that 11 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: that was a major reason why he was angry at 12 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: the Republicans and angry at former President Trump, and kind 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: of that at least failed assassination attempt is sort of 14 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: in line with a lot of derangement around Ukraine. And 15 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: you can find this on the left and the right 16 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: in the center. I've come to think that if you're 17 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: trying to evaluate sort of how credible someone is as 18 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: a geopolitical expert today, one of the best things you 19 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: can do is kind of look back to early February 20 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two and see what sort of claims they 21 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 1: were making about what was going to happen, whether or 22 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 1: not Russia was actually going to go into Ukraine and 23 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: expand their invasion. And that's obviously, you know, a bigger 24 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: topic than I think we're going to get into today. 25 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: One of the things that I find really interesting when 26 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: I kind of analyze how particularly conservatives have turned on 27 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: the Ukrainian cause is how kind of incomprehensible that seems, 28 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: just based on the way in which I was raised 29 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: by the conservatives in my life to think about Russia 30 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 1: and to think about like Russian military aggression. You know, 31 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: I grew up largely in the post Cold War era, 32 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: but my parents were both like raised by Cold warriors. 33 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: They mostly grew up on military bases, and I still 34 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: grew up with an awful lot of the kind of 35 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: Cold War shrapnel and my sort of ideological training. You know, 36 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 1: the movie Read Dawn was a big part of my childhood. 37 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: You know, some of those early James Bond movies where 38 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: the Soviet Unions are still the bad guy. You know, 39 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: this was all major stuff for me. So it's been 40 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:19,640 Speaker 1: particularly disorienting kind of watching Philo Russian attitudes infiltrate the 41 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: right and US move from this idea of like these 42 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: people are one way or the other kind of a 43 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: geopolitical opponent of the United States, towards these people are 44 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: almost existing in an idealized version of the society we 45 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: bring around. It's been a cause of some whiplash for 46 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: me and for I think a lot of people who 47 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 1: were raised in that environment and then kind of came 48 00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:45,000 Speaker 1: out of those ideological beliefs. And when we look at 49 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: the kind of turnaround on the right about this stuff, 50 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: one of the people who's been on the bleeding edge 51 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 1: of this has been Vice presidential candidate JD. 52 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: Vance. 53 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: And in fact, Ukraine might mark the first place where 54 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: Vance really came in ahead of the rest of his 55 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: party on an issue they would all ultimately move in 56 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: behind him on back In early twenty twenty two, in 57 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: the immediate wake of Russia's expanded invasion, Vance told Steve 58 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: Bannon in one of his many ill advised podcast interviews, quote, 59 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: I don't really care what happens to Ukraine one way 60 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 1: or the other now is This paragraph from an article 61 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:23,959 Speaker 1: by Ed Kilgore and New York Magazine makes clear Vance 62 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: was swiftly followed by others. Quote then Congressman Madison Cawthorn 63 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: parrooted Russian propaganda by saying, the Ukrainian government is incredibly 64 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: corrupt and is incredibly evil and has been pushing woke ideologies, 65 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: and his colleague Marjorie Taylor Green called the Ukrainians neo Nazis. 66 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: Fox News's Tucker Carlson was a constant font of bitter 67 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: hostility towards USAID for Ukraine. Now Cawthorne was and remains 68 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: now a stooge. But I think it really is kind 69 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: of drilling into the precise wording of his claim here, 70 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 1: the fact that he's so focused on wokeness within the 71 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 1: context of a conflict. But it seems much more serious 72 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 1: than kind of the standard American culture war bullshit. A 73 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: lot of why we're seeing this has to do with 74 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 1: the fallout over the Russiagate culture war that consumed the 75 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: Democrats during the first half of the Trump administration. This 76 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: led to the enemy of the enemy as my friends 77 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: sort of thinking among the right, and this was stoked 78 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: consciously by Russian propaganda efforts. After Trump left office, these 79 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: efforts were redoubled, especially after the war in Ukraine became 80 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: an existential issue for Putin's regime. A good example of 81 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,279 Speaker 1: the more obvious sort of messaging is this Moscow Times 82 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 1: article from May of twenty twenty three, with the title 83 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: Russia to build migrant village for conservative American expats. Quote 84 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: Timor Beslangarov, a migration lawyer at Moscow's Vista Foreign Business Support, 85 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 1: claimed that around two hundred families wish to immigrate to 86 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:56,840 Speaker 1: Russia for ideological reasons. The reason is propaganda of radical values. 87 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 1: Today they have seventy genders and who knows what will next. 88 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 1: Ria Novosti quoted Bessangorov as saying, echoing President Vladimir Putin's 89 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: frequently deployed grievances against Western countries, comparative gender freedom, and 90 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,359 Speaker 1: here we see it again, the focus on hatred of 91 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: woke as a justification for solidarity with Russia. A sizable 92 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: plurality of Americans still support the US sending aid to Ukraine, 93 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: and the reality of Russia's invasion is hideous enough that 94 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: the bulk of modern Russian propaganda in this country today 95 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 1: seems to focus on the woke issue more than anything 96 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 1: directly relevant to the war. As I write this, one 97 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 1: of the top stories in the country is how a 98 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: Tennessee based media network, Tenet Media, hired a bunch of 99 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: American influencers like Tim Poole and Dave Rubin and paid 100 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: them north of one hundred grand of video to make 101 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: Russian propaganda. Now, Pool and Ruben and their fellows claim 102 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,679 Speaker 1: to be shocked, shocked that a foreign government was involved 103 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: in all and deny acting as unregistered foreign agents or 104 00:05:56,640 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: breaking the law in any way. We'll see how those 105 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: claims look in few months. For now, I think it's 106 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: illustrative to turn towards a wired analysis of the content 107 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,239 Speaker 1: of dozens of Tenant Media videos written by Tim Marshman 108 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: and Drove Merota. It shows us the kind of propaganda 109 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: that Russia found fruitful, inceeding to an American audience quote. 110 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: This analysis does not show that in these videos the 111 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: influencers were particularly fixated on the Ukraine War. The word 112 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: Ukraine appears in the transcript sixty seven times, about as 113 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 1: often as misinformation, Christianity, and Clinton. It does show the 114 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,240 Speaker 1: influencers stressing highly divisive culture war topics in the videos, 115 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 1: which carried titles like trans widows are a thing, and 116 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: it's getting all caps out of hand and race is 117 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: biological but gender isn't question mark question mark question mark. 118 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: The word trans appears one hundred and fifty two times 119 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: and transgender ninety eight, So sixty seven times we see 120 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: Ukraine appear in these transcripts, as opposed to well over 121 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: two hundred times for trans and transgender together. Now, if 122 00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: you want a snapshot of just how absurd and divorced 123 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: from reality the culture wars have gotten, the Russian government 124 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:11,200 Speaker 1: funding a clandestine influence operation considered stoking fears about trans 125 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: people to have a higher rate of return than actually 126 00:07:13,840 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: propagandizing directly about the war in Ukraine. As absurd as 127 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: this sounds, these tactics have borne fruit, and I think 128 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 1: the reason why it is simple, by building a sense of 129 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: solidarity between bigoted American conservatives and what they see as 130 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: a similarly conservative Russia. Now, obviously, the reality of the 131 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: situation is that Russia is not exactly the country these 132 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: people think it is. While it is true that the 133 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: number of Russian adults who consider themselves at least somewhat 134 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 1: religious skyrocketed after the fall of the uss Are from 135 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: eleven percent or so to over fifty percent today, much 136 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,239 Speaker 1: of that is likely just explained by the change away 137 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: from an expressly atheistic government. Even today, Pew Research notes quote, 138 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: for most Russians, the return to religion did not correspond 139 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 1: with a return to church. Across all three waves of 140 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: ISSP data, no more than about one in ten Russians 141 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: said they attend religious services at least once a month. 142 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: The share of regular attenders monthly or more often was 143 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: two percent in nineteen ninety one, nine percent in nineteen 144 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 1: ninety eight, and seven percent in two thousand and eight. 145 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: For reference, about thirty two percent of Americans currently attend church, synagogue, mosque, 146 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: et cetera on a weekly basis. Now, this is down 147 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: significantly from forty nine percent in nineteen fifty eight and 148 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 1: does represent a low for church attendance in US history. 149 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: But you can see we still beat the Russians in 150 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: at least active religiosity by a factor of like five. Now, 151 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: one of the modern bugbears of the right wing in 152 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: the US is no fault divorce, which often gets wrapped 153 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 1: up in conversations about wokeness. 154 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 2: Here. 155 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: Russia is also not a bastion of good old fashioned values. 156 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to quote from an article in Russia Beyond 157 00:08:56,520 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: by Nikolay Schevchenko. In twenty sixteen, the ratio in Russian 158 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: of divorces to new marriages that year was one to 159 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: one point six, meaning that Russians divorce more often than 160 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: they marry. In recent decades, over sixty percent of marriages 161 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: in Russia ended in official separation. Now, there is precisely 162 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,319 Speaker 1: one issue where Russian culture is in reality more in 163 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: line with the kind of culture American conservatives claim to desire, 164 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: and that is in its treatment of LGBT people and 165 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 1: ethnic minorities. The last years in Putin's Russia have seen 166 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: a surge in hate crimes against queer Russians, as LGBT 167 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: advocacy organizations have been declared illegal and punished by the government. 168 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: This is the Russia our American right wing finds solidarity with, 169 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: and we shouldn't forget that right when we're looking at 170 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: to what extent do these people see Russia as kind 171 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,599 Speaker 1: of embodying the values they would like to bring to 172 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: the United States. It has a lot less to do 173 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: with actual religiosity, with good old fashioned family values, and 174 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: a lot more to do with hate for specific groups 175 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: of people. Going to talk about what that means within 176 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: the context of US politics, in a little bit. But 177 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: first here's some ads. So earlier this year, I headed 178 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: to the Republican National Convention, and I had a lot 179 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: on my mind there. But one of the things I 180 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: was kind of interested in is hearing the way in 181 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: which Conservatives talked about Ukraine when they felt like they 182 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: were among friends. It was not uncommon to hear Ukraine 183 00:10:35,720 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: referenced in conversations as a geopolitical enemy of the United States. 184 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: And this is something I encountered a number of times, 185 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:44,800 Speaker 1: and I wanted to make sure it wasn't just a 186 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 1: fluke of my own experiences there. And I assure you 187 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: it was not. Michael Waitely, who Donald Trump picked to 188 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: chair the RNC, appeared on Fox News in April and 189 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 1: lumped Ukraine in with China and Iran as aggressive adversaries 190 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: of the United States. Now, you know, we can quibble 191 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: on that list for a number of reasons, but Ukraine, 192 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: a country we are currently arming and training to fight 193 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: in our stead, is just kind of absurd to describe 194 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: as an aggressive adversary of the United States. Now, that 195 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: very month, Congress voted on a foreign aid package, which 196 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 1: caused a massive split in the Republican Party. The anti 197 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 1: Ukraine side was led by voices like Marjorie Taylor Green, 198 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:28,079 Speaker 1: who told Steve Bannon, the Ukrainian government is attacking Christians. 199 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: The Ukrainian government is executing priests. Russia is not doing that. 200 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: They're not attacking Christianity. Now, like most things, Green says, 201 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: this is not quite accurate. The Guardian noted at the 202 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: time quote. In fact, according to figures from the Institute 203 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: for Religious Freedom a Ukrainian group, at least six hundred 204 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: and thirty religious sites had been damaged or looted in 205 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: Russia's invasion by December last year. Green received a speaking 206 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: slot at the RNC, as did tech investor David Sachs, 207 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: who spent some of his time on stage arguing that 208 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: o'biden somehow provoked the Russians to invade Ukraine by talking 209 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: about NATO expansion. Now, this is a claim you'll hear 210 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: on some segments of the left too, and it tends 211 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: to ignore that Russia invaded back in twenty fourteen after 212 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: a revolution against a Kremlin backed president Yenikovich, threw their 213 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 1: own plans in the region into disarray. Ukraine, to this day, 214 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 1: despite the expanded invasion, is not a part of NATO, 215 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: and Biden's administration has been leery not only of pushing 216 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: for this, but of supplying Ukraine with long range weapons 217 00:12:29,800 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: to strike inside Russian territory. The fact that Ukrainians and 218 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 1: others did start discussing Ukrainian membership in NATO after almost 219 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,959 Speaker 1: a decade of war is certainly not among the things 220 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: that we can blame the Biden administration for starting. As 221 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: I trolled the RNC talking to attendees about their feelings 222 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: on the war, I got a variety of responses. The 223 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: most positive believe that Ukraine had been wronged, but that 224 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: the war was unwinnable, so the US had to negotiate 225 00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: some kind of peace. Moore argued that the Ukrainians were 226 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: somehow stealing usaid, which they imagined would be put to 227 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: better use helping Americans. I found this an illogical position personally, 228 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: given that our aid Ukraine has primarily taken the form 229 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: of old weapons systems no longer in use by US 230 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: troops unless you want to house homeless veterans in Bradley 231 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,199 Speaker 1: fighting vehicles. I don't really see how what we've sent 232 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: Zelensky is much used to the kind of Americans who 233 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 1: are actually suffering today. The most enlightening conversation that I 234 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: had while I was at the Republican convention about their 235 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: sentiments on Ukraine came when Garrison and I stumbled upon 236 00:13:34,800 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: Rudy Giuliani, seated at the booth for some streaming network 237 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: or another, exiled from the main stage of the event. 238 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: I introduced myself to Rudy and we started off just 239 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: talking about how surreal the mood was given the recent 240 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: attempted assassination of the former president. 241 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,719 Speaker 3: He's a conquering your own history party. We would have 242 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 3: been even without a Saturday. What's Saturday? It's surreal. I 243 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 3: think people shoel the living through history. That image of 244 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 3: him in rallying America, that's give be one of our 245 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 3: ten historical great interest now. 246 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: I included that because it's a fun snapshot of just 247 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,080 Speaker 1: how elated Republicans were that week, right before Biden dropped 248 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: out and the whole election changed yet again on a dime. 249 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 1: From here, Rudy and I moved to talking a bit 250 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: about how badly the Secret Service had fucked up and 251 00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: protecting Trump, which is not really something I had a 252 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: particular disagreement with, although I think Juliani was coming at 253 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: it from more of a conspiratorial standpoint than I would. 254 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: I think simple incompetence more or less explains everything that 255 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: happened that day pretty well. This morphed in fairly short 256 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: order into him ranting about how all of this was 257 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: Biden's fault and how no one ever gets fired for 258 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,760 Speaker 1: incompetence in the Biden administration. He brought up Afghanistan and 259 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: that is what led us finally to Ukraine. 260 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 3: Ukraine would not have happened if he hadn't been a 261 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 3: complete power at oldgraph. 262 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 4: God isn't now. 263 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, what proof is very simple, including invaded three times 264 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 3: under the last four presidents. There's only one president he 265 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 3: was scared of. 266 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 4: It was Trump. 267 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 3: He invaded under Bush, he invaded under Obama, he invaded 268 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 3: under Biden. He didn't invade under Trump. So don't tell 269 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 3: me he would have invaded under Trump. 270 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 4: He had a chance to know what he did now. 271 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: I responded by pointing out that Giuliani's time frame was 272 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: a little off. Well, but I mean I was there 273 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: in twenty fifteen, and my friends who were in the 274 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: Ukrainian military were still fighting under Trump. 275 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 3: You know. 276 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: The invasion, Yeah, was still happening. It was just not 277 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: at the current level that it's at. Rudy went on 278 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: to blame Obama for not having given weapons to Ukraine 279 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: in a timely fashion. 280 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 4: In fact, Poroshenko, who. 281 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 3: Is a corrupt pal of Biden's, told me, yeah, they 282 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 3: were my friends, but I didn't get any guns until 283 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 3: Trump came in. 284 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 4: They wanted me to win with t shootings and steff. 285 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 4: He said, I never knew what side they were on. 286 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 4: Obama never gave them offs. We gave him money. 287 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: Now, this is again not accurate. By December of twenty nineteen, 288 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: the US had provided Ukraine with about one point five 289 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: billion dollars in aid since the twenty fourteen invasion. This 290 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: did include weapons including javelin, anti tank missiles and armored vehicles, 291 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: which is why they had some of these weapons when 292 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: the expanded Russian invasion occurred. Rather than loosening the purse 293 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: strings as Russian aggression continued, President Trump withheld three hundred 294 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: and ninety one million dollars in aid to try and 295 00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: get a political favor from Zelenski. We're going to continue 296 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: with Rudy Giuliani and my conversation, but first here's a 297 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: little bit more ads and we're back. So after Giuliani 298 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: made his claim that the United States didn't send any 299 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: weapons over to Ukraine until Trump was president, he said this. 300 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 3: He let Biden handle the money, the last guy in 301 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 3: the world that should be only money to Ukraine now 302 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 3: and Ukraine's gotten. 303 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 4: Two hundred billion and nobody let us order it. 304 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 3: This is the acknowledge to be the most corrupt, second most, 305 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 3: third most corrupt country in the world. The fact that 306 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 3: they were invaded by Russia doesn't make them honest. It 307 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 3: makes them the victim. Doesn't make them honest. And you 308 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 3: pour a couple hundred billion in there without controls? What 309 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 3: am I a jackass? I can't figure out what's happening 310 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:31,959 Speaker 3: and you don't win. 311 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:34,000 Speaker 4: Now much more do you have? You can? That's aw 312 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 4: hundred billion now. 313 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: Rudy, like most Republicans on this issue, always describes the 314 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 1: aid we've sent to Ukraine as it's cash. I find 315 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,679 Speaker 1: it interesting that he claims Ukrainian corruption is also somehow 316 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: to blame for US not auditing the aid we sent. Now, 317 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: there are issues with how the US Defense Department has 318 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: audited some of the aid going to Ukraine, but those 319 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,719 Speaker 1: are issues with the Defense Department. In fact, it came 320 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: out in January of twenty twenty four that the United 321 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: States failed to audit about a billion dollars worth of 322 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: military aid to Ukraine. Now, first off, this is not cash, 323 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: as Juliani repeatedly insinuates. It's all weapons, and there's no 324 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: evidence that any of these weapons were ever sold to 325 00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: another country or used outside of Ukraine. They simply weren't 326 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: audited the way that they ought to have been because 327 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 1: the Pentagon fired all of the people who should have 328 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: been auditing this aid. Right, this is a pretty common 329 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:28,959 Speaker 1: issue with the Pentagon. You can look back to Iraq 330 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: and the sheer amount of aid that was sent to 331 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: Iraq and then kind of disappeared in the ether because 332 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 1: they just didn't have anyone paying attention to it. Obviously, 333 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: because that happened under Republican administration, Juliani isn't concerned at 334 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,960 Speaker 1: all about it. But he is deeply concerned about this 335 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: kind of fantastical two hundred billion dollars that he believes 336 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: has been shotgunned out to Ukrainian mobsters. And here's Rudy again. 337 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:54,800 Speaker 1: As our conversation continued. 338 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 4: Biden has US consigned to a war without animate in Ukraine. 339 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 3: He doesn't even dare to suggest an end because he's 340 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 3: afraid of confrontation with Russia. 341 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 4: So he's just going to get more people killed. 342 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 3: I mean, there probably isn't an American president that said 343 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,440 Speaker 3: more people killed other than a war than bud. 344 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: It's interesting you describe it as them not winning, because 345 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: I do have trouble. I know, in the lead up 346 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: to the expanded invasion of February twenty twenty two, the 347 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 1: expectation from most of the people in our military and 348 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,679 Speaker 1: most people internationally, was that the Ukrainian military was going 349 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,119 Speaker 1: to fold in a manner of days. And they're now 350 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: back to about seventeen percent of the country under Russian occupation, 351 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: which isn't a massive escalation over where it was previously 352 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 1: because they pushed well, because they pushed the Russians out 353 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: of Kiev. 354 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,880 Speaker 4: Well, will that end the war? Russia can keep seven 355 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 4: pay percent. 356 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 2: I don't think the Ukrainians are willing to send the 357 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 2: war that. 358 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 3: The war is one when you achieve the objective that 359 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 3: has you stopped conducting war. 360 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:52,840 Speaker 4: They're not even close to them. 361 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 3: The only way Ukraine says it will stop fighting is 362 00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 3: if Russia is pushed out of Ukraine. They haven't been 363 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 3: able to do that. So they're not winning the war. 364 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 3: I mean, nor are they presenting a plan that we're 365 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 3: funding to do that. We're not planning, we're not funding. 366 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 3: We're just endlessly giving them money to keep the status quo. 367 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 3: We do not have a plan to win them or 368 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 3: end it. So I mean when I Tom Towell used 369 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 3: to say the worst thing about American foreign policy under unrealistic, 370 00:20:25,720 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 3: somewhat left leaning liberals is war without end. When you 371 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 3: go into a war, you've got to be willing to 372 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 3: commit yourself and you've got to be willing to win 373 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 3: it quick, otherwise you're gonna lose it. And you know 374 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 3: when we started, when we started losing wars, that's the 375 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 3: policy we fall. 376 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: But if you compare where Ukraine is at right now 377 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: to the wars the United States has gotten involved in 378 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: in the century, Iraq, you know, around a decade or 379 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: so close to twenty years for Afghanistan. Ukraine is two 380 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:03,160 Speaker 1: years since the expanded invasion, and you know, war, it's 381 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: a it's a massive international conflict between a much smaller 382 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: nation and a larger one. When I talk to Ukrainians 383 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: and they I asked them, what do you think you 384 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,439 Speaker 1: need to actually win this? One of the things they 385 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: repeatedly say is the ability to strike Russian assets inside Russia. 386 00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 4: Who doesn't give him? 387 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 2: Who doesn't? Yeah, I'm just wonder more minutes to go. 388 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 4: Who prevents person? 389 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 2: Definitely, the Biden administration hasn't allowed that. 390 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:30,399 Speaker 4: He tells us he wants them to win. 391 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,360 Speaker 1: Do you do you think why would you be supportive 392 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: under a new Republican administration of allowing Ukraine to strike 393 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 1: inside Russia? 394 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,680 Speaker 3: I would be supportive of sitting down and having a 395 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 3: realistic conversation about a plant. 396 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 4: First thing I do is audit the money we gave. 397 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: Now, of course, Rudy can't support that, so he pivoted 398 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: back to arguing that we need to audit Ukraine to 399 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,640 Speaker 1: quote find out what happened to the money we gave him, 400 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: him being Zelensky. And again I pointed out that we 401 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: aren't giving him money to We're sending over weapons. Nevertheless, 402 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 1: our conversation continued. Now, the vast majority of the two 403 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,240 Speaker 1: hundred billion that's been sent over, though, is in munitions, 404 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: like we're not talking about. Have you have you found 405 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: it in the American industry that there has been American 406 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: in the American industry. 407 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 4: You want to find the American military industrial complex. What 408 00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 4: I want to think is a lot of weeks of 409 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 4: money in the American. 410 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: But I'm not concerned about money though, because what I 411 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: what we happened, The money doesn't get to there's no 412 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: javelins winding up outside of Ukraine. 413 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 2: There's no a gt MS winding up out money. 414 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 1: They're they're mostly getting weaponry though, they're getting Bradley's, they're 415 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: getting Abrams tanks, they're getting. 416 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 4: Those things. 417 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 2: Where have they sold them? 418 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 4: But they've been caught three times selling selling Where selling weapons? 419 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 3: Where I'd have to go back and look, But they've 420 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 3: been caught three times selling plus they. 421 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 2: Have Now this was just a lie. 422 00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: Ukraine has not been caught selling US weapons. Rudy only 423 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: claims they have been because he's consumed a huge amount 424 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: of Krimlin funded media that has been arguing since twenty 425 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 1: twenty two that US weapons sent to Ukraine will end 426 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: up on the black market. There's no outside evidence that 427 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: shows that this has happened. And in fact, Elias Yusef, 428 00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 1: a research analyst for the security think tank the Stimpson Center, 429 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: recently told Business insider, I don't think we've seen any 430 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: real diversion, particularly outside the country of weapons. That article continues. 431 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 1: Pro Russian media has aired similar claims of a mass 432 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: diversion of arms meant for the front line, some citing 433 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: a retracted CBS report that included a source claiming only 434 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: thirty percent of weapons sent to Ukraine made it to 435 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: the battlefield. One conspiracy inclined website, purportedly citing anonymous Ukrainians, 436 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: claimed the weapons are stolen to such a degree that 437 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: Ukraine as of August had already lost the war because 438 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: of the black market diversion. Now, in the months since 439 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: that claim was made that Ukraine had lost the war 440 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: because they had given up all of their weapons, they 441 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 1: took a bunch of those weapons and invaded Russia, punching 442 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: a hole through their lines and taking a considerable amount 443 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: of territory in the Kursk region, which they occupy to 444 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: an extent today. As it's always the case with guys 445 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 1: like Julian, reality doesn't matter here. It's about repeating the 446 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 1: same talking points until you get a journalist ignorant enough 447 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:20,399 Speaker 1: to take them as true. And it's the kind of 448 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: thing where if you're not up on all of the 449 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: different claims being made on the right and all of 450 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 1: the claims about corruption and money being siphoned off and 451 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 1: taken by mobsters, then you're not going to be able 452 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: to properly argue with them, right, Like, if you don't 453 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: really know what you're talking about, you might seed the 454 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 1: point to Juliani that there have been at least three 455 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: cases of the Ukrainians caught selling American weapons overseas. Now, 456 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 1: when you look into what you see that this is 457 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,439 Speaker 1: primarily a claim that spreads on right wing Facebook pages 458 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: and there's not really any evidence of a sizeable diversion. 459 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: But that doesn't really matter. What matters is in the 460 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: moment being able to kind of spread a point out 461 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: to the extent that nobody really questions you want. And 462 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,359 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's the kind of thing that happens 463 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: a lot in politics, and it's the kind of thing 464 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: that is probably pointless to really address, right Like me 465 00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: arguing with Rudy Giuliani got him hot and flustered and 466 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: kind of pissed off, and certainly got me frustrated. But 467 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: I don't think it accomplished much. And I really I 468 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: think kind of the thing that you have to accept 469 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: when you're looking at sort of right wing lies about 470 00:25:23,920 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: what's happening in Ukraine or the lies being told right 471 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: now about you know, Springfield, Ohio and the Haitian migrant 472 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 1: population over there. There's really very little point in actually 473 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 1: confronting these people directly about the disinformation that they put out, 474 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: because it's not really a case where they care about 475 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,640 Speaker 1: the truth one way or the other. It's a matter 476 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: of you've kind of lost the fight if you care 477 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 1: at all about trying to prove reality to them, you know. 478 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: And that's kind of a bummer note to end this on. 479 00:25:55,840 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: But I guess I don't really have anything optimistic to say. 480 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: I just thought you'd be interested in my little conversation 481 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 1: with Rudy Giuliani and some of the talking points that 482 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: are continuing to spread up along their ride. So you know, 483 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: at the very least, maybe the next time you wind 484 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 1: up in an argument this Thanksgiving with your uncle about Ukraine, 485 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 1: you'll be kind of wary for some of the arguments 486 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 1: he's going to bring out, you know, to the extent 487 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: that that does anybody any good until next time. I'm 488 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,800 Speaker 1: Robert Evans, and this is it could Happen here. If 489 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: you want to see these sources for this episode and 490 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 1: do some reading yourself, they're in the show notes, so 491 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: just check them out there and we will be back tomorrow. 492 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 5: It Could Happen Here is a production of pool Zone Media. 493 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 5: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 494 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 5: poolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 495 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 5: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 496 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 5: now find sources for It could Happen Here, listed directly 497 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 5: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.