1 00:00:00,140 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Fellow ridiculous historians, you may have heard about the Vatican 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: from earlier. Turns out they like to ban stuff. 3 00:00:07,300 --> 00:00:11,770 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they're big fans of prohibition. They're real yuckers 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 2: of yums. 5 00:00:12,930 --> 00:00:16,810 Speaker 1: Yeah, so back in the day, we looked into a 6 00:00:17,850 --> 00:00:23,470 Speaker 1: story that seemed very strange. It involves a master engraver 7 00:00:23,910 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: named Marcantonio Ramondi, who... put in some saucy, explicit art 8 00:00:32,140 --> 00:00:33,979 Speaker 1: throughout the papal palace. 9 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:41,260 Speaker 3: Boy, did he ever. Particularly raunchy art, in fact. The 10 00:00:41,300 --> 00:00:44,470 Speaker 3: church was so scandalized that it had to take action. 11 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:45,510 Speaker 3: Let's find out what they did. 12 00:00:48,770 --> 00:01:16,390 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Thank you. Welcome 13 00:01:16,430 --> 00:01:19,510 Speaker 1: to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you so much for 14 00:01:19,590 --> 00:01:25,630 Speaker 1: tuning in. We have a bit of a disclaimer, I think, 15 00:01:25,690 --> 00:01:28,429 Speaker 1: or a bit of a thing we must say for 16 00:01:28,450 --> 00:01:29,590 Speaker 1: the beginning of this episode. 17 00:01:29,610 --> 00:01:31,690 Speaker 3: Ben, is this like a trigger warning or no? Is 18 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 3: that different? Is that the same as a disclaimer? 19 00:01:33,780 --> 00:01:36,539 Speaker 1: I guess a trigger warning is a genre of a disclaimer, Noel. 20 00:01:37,640 --> 00:01:39,900 Speaker 1: But yeah, either way, it's a thing you have to 21 00:01:39,940 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: say at the top. This episode, we are kind of 22 00:01:42,620 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: a family show, you know, you and I, we're in 23 00:01:45,700 --> 00:01:53,460 Speaker 1: And our super producer, Paul Mission Control Deccant. As well 24 00:01:53,500 --> 00:01:55,330 Speaker 1: as our super producer, Casey Pegram. 25 00:01:56,850 --> 00:01:58,830 Speaker 2: Who has returned, as it turns out, from his secret 26 00:01:58,870 --> 00:02:00,830 Speaker 2: life as an international criminal? 27 00:02:00,850 --> 00:02:03,090 Speaker 1: Spy? What is he exactly again? 28 00:02:03,130 --> 00:02:04,630 Speaker 3: I keep getting the stories mixed up. 29 00:02:04,690 --> 00:02:05,930 Speaker 1: He is simply LeBouche. 30 00:02:05,950 --> 00:02:06,490 Speaker 3: He is LeBouche. 31 00:02:07,030 --> 00:02:09,739 Speaker 1: So, you know, all of us on the show, including 32 00:02:10,020 --> 00:02:13,900 Speaker 1: our producer, Maya Cole. Give it up for her. It's 33 00:02:13,940 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: her first day. Wave to her there. All of us 34 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:22,740 Speaker 1: are generally like PG people, maybe PG-13. This is not 35 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,410 Speaker 1: a hard-hitting, mature-themed show. 36 00:02:25,430 --> 00:02:26,380 Speaker 3: You mean on the show? 37 00:02:26,590 --> 00:02:27,210 Speaker 1: On this show. 38 00:02:27,490 --> 00:02:29,690 Speaker 3: Well, in our personal lives, we can— Oh, my gosh. 39 00:02:29,810 --> 00:02:30,710 Speaker 3: It goes off the rails. 40 00:02:30,830 --> 00:02:36,330 Speaker 1: Oh, wow. Very quickly. But today's show, No Fooling— Does 41 00:02:36,510 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: encounter some things that may not be appropriate for all listeners. 42 00:02:43,190 --> 00:02:46,700 Speaker 1: So if you're one of the very, very kind teachers, 43 00:02:46,780 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: whoever uses our show for your students. 44 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:52,060 Speaker 3: Surely that's not a thing. 45 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,460 Speaker 1: I think a couple times. Yeah. Okay. But if you 46 00:02:55,500 --> 00:02:59,020 Speaker 1: are one of those teachers, listen through the entirety of 47 00:02:59,060 --> 00:03:00,769 Speaker 1: this episode before playing it for you. 48 00:03:01,190 --> 00:03:03,350 Speaker 2: Your students or if you're some kind of prude and 49 00:03:03,430 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: prone to pearl clutching um i would also maybe skip 50 00:03:07,020 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 2: this one or maybe give it a go and it'll 51 00:03:09,540 --> 00:03:10,140 Speaker 2: make you grow up a. 52 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,179 Speaker 1: Little bit you'll have you'll have that uh aladdin a 53 00:03:13,220 --> 00:03:16,510 Speaker 1: whole new world moment right that's my favorite part of 54 00:03:16,530 --> 00:03:19,630 Speaker 1: that movie it is such an amazing movie overall are 55 00:03:19,650 --> 00:03:21,210 Speaker 1: you gonna see the live version i. 56 00:03:21,150 --> 00:03:23,950 Speaker 2: Gotta say that the physics of it absolute garbage They 57 00:03:23,970 --> 00:03:25,970 Speaker 2: would be torn to shreds or they would like suffocate 58 00:03:25,990 --> 00:03:26,710 Speaker 2: in the atmosphere. 59 00:03:26,750 --> 00:03:27,750 Speaker 3: On the carpet. Give me a break. 60 00:03:27,830 --> 00:03:30,550 Speaker 1: I always thought the carpet sort of created this field. 61 00:03:30,570 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 3: That is some magical thinking, Ben. I like that. 62 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:34,780 Speaker 1: It's a story about magic. 63 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:36,820 Speaker 2: That is quality suspension of disbelief, my friend. 64 00:03:36,860 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 3: Well done. 65 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: Speaking of suspension of disbelief. 66 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:41,339 Speaker 3: Yeah. 67 00:03:41,460 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: That's a weird segue. But today's episode addresses a little 68 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:52,190 Speaker 1: bit of hypocrisy. in the Catholic Church addresses something that 69 00:03:52,610 --> 00:03:57,510 Speaker 1: you and I both, I think, found fascinating, but maybe 70 00:03:57,550 --> 00:03:58,750 Speaker 1: not entirely surprising. 71 00:03:58,930 --> 00:04:01,330 Speaker 3: Yeah, possibly a little titillating. Yes, yes. 72 00:04:01,610 --> 00:04:03,570 Speaker 1: Just a little. A bit of Twitter patient. 73 00:04:03,710 --> 00:04:05,410 Speaker 3: Indeed. We should get right to it. 74 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 2: Today's episode is, I don't know, you could kind of, 75 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: this is a bit of a misnomer to refer to 76 00:04:10,100 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: it like this, but I still like it. The banned 77 00:04:12,540 --> 00:04:16,290 Speaker 2: 16th century pornographic sex guide made in, you guessed it, 78 00:04:16,300 --> 00:04:17,300 Speaker 2: the Vatican. 79 00:04:17,670 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 1: True story. True story, folks. Yes, this is entirely non-fictional. 80 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:31,900 Speaker 1: So nowadays, when people think of the pope, right, the 81 00:04:31,980 --> 00:04:35,930 Speaker 1: head of the Catholic Church, we typically are going to 82 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:41,910 Speaker 1: think of maybe someone who's kind of isolated, a kindly 83 00:04:42,150 --> 00:04:46,430 Speaker 1: older man in white with a unique set of hats. Mm-hmm. 84 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:52,020 Speaker 1: But in centuries leading up to the modern day, popes 85 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: were somewhat salacious or what's that other word? We were salubrious. 86 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 3: Salubrious? 87 00:04:58,180 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: Yes, yes. 88 00:04:58,940 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, here's the thing, too. There's 89 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:05,290 Speaker 2: a public facing popeness and then there's the private facing popeness. 90 00:05:05,950 --> 00:05:07,659 Speaker 2: I made up the word popeness just now, by the way. 91 00:05:07,670 --> 00:05:08,110 Speaker 1: I thought it was good. 92 00:05:08,230 --> 00:05:10,350 Speaker 3: I think I'm okay with it. But think about it. 93 00:05:10,350 --> 00:05:12,420 Speaker 3: I mean, we know this from all the exposés that 94 00:05:12,460 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 3: have been going on. 95 00:05:13,500 --> 00:05:16,980 Speaker 2: About the Catholic Church for decades now and beyond, where, 96 00:05:17,140 --> 00:05:19,970 Speaker 2: as it turns out, some of these kindly older gentlemen 97 00:05:20,010 --> 00:05:23,490 Speaker 2: in their robes and whatnot were actually not so kindly treated. 98 00:05:23,820 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 1: At all. 99 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,170 Speaker 2: And were doing pretty terrible things behind closed doors when 100 00:05:27,190 --> 00:05:28,330 Speaker 2: they thought they could get away with it. 101 00:05:28,870 --> 00:05:30,900 Speaker 3: This is not that necessarily. 102 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:32,970 Speaker 2: This is a little more just being a little on 103 00:05:33,010 --> 00:05:36,730 Speaker 2: the naughty side and perhaps commissioning, as legend would have it. 104 00:05:36,750 --> 00:05:37,890 Speaker 3: There's different versions of the story. 105 00:05:38,210 --> 00:05:42,710 Speaker 2: Some pornographic art in a particular space in the Vatican 106 00:05:42,950 --> 00:05:44,529 Speaker 2: that is now referred. 107 00:05:44,210 --> 00:05:47,170 Speaker 1: To as the Sala di Constantino. 108 00:05:47,710 --> 00:05:50,490 Speaker 3: Well done, Ben. What an authentico accento. 109 00:05:50,670 --> 00:05:54,849 Speaker 1: Thank you. Do you remember that earlier conversation? This is 110 00:05:54,910 --> 00:05:56,630 Speaker 1: a point you brought up, Noel, that I thought was 111 00:05:56,650 --> 00:06:00,060 Speaker 1: very interesting where I can't remember whether this was on 112 00:06:00,140 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 1: air or whether we were just hanging out after work. 113 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: But you said to me, you're like, Ben, you notice 114 00:06:07,180 --> 00:06:10,779 Speaker 1: that we're always very careful not to stereotype people or 115 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,110 Speaker 1: do unfair caricatures except for Italian people. 116 00:06:14,620 --> 00:06:17,430 Speaker 2: And apparently Australians. We got an email where people were like, hey, 117 00:06:17,450 --> 00:06:20,070 Speaker 2: I really like the show. But all you ever do 118 00:06:20,110 --> 00:06:23,510 Speaker 2: talk about my home country is bad Australian accents and 119 00:06:23,790 --> 00:06:24,830 Speaker 2: genitalia references. 120 00:06:24,850 --> 00:06:26,010 Speaker 3: I believe little Australia. 121 00:06:26,770 --> 00:06:29,810 Speaker 2: But that's neither here nor there. But, yeah, we do 122 00:06:29,850 --> 00:06:32,900 Speaker 2: try our best to be thoughtful and courteous. 123 00:06:33,060 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: So if there is anything that sounds like a stereotypical 124 00:06:36,940 --> 00:06:41,860 Speaker 1: or Italian accent or caricature thereof, It is simply our 125 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:42,860 Speaker 1: bad pronunciation. 126 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:44,580 Speaker 2: Yeah, and feel free to yell at us. So the 127 00:06:44,660 --> 00:06:48,220 Speaker 2: Sala di Constantino is one of the largest rooms in 128 00:06:48,540 --> 00:06:51,850 Speaker 2: the Vatican. And at this point in time, it depicts 129 00:06:51,870 --> 00:06:57,150 Speaker 2: kind of fresco paintings of the first Roman emperor to 130 00:06:57,190 --> 00:07:02,630 Speaker 2: convert to Christianity, Constantine. And it is believed by some, 131 00:07:03,250 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: though I've not found any unequivocal evidence for this, that 132 00:07:07,060 --> 00:07:12,700 Speaker 2: those were painted on top of some rather salacious, let's 133 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:16,850 Speaker 2: call it Renaissance pin-up type paintings, right? 134 00:07:17,230 --> 00:07:22,190 Speaker 1: Right, yeah. The way this story goes is that once 135 00:07:22,290 --> 00:07:30,190 Speaker 1: upon a time, there were a series of very explicit 136 00:07:30,330 --> 00:07:39,239 Speaker 1: paintings of lovers, historical figures, throughout history in explicit... explicit 137 00:07:39,820 --> 00:07:41,820 Speaker 1: uh romantic positions. 138 00:07:41,460 --> 00:07:44,340 Speaker 2: Yeah and i mean more so than just depictions like 139 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:47,670 Speaker 2: they were almost intended to be like a guidebook sort 140 00:07:47,690 --> 00:07:49,990 Speaker 2: of like the kama sutra or something like that and 141 00:07:50,010 --> 00:07:52,110 Speaker 2: i think there were how many of them were there 142 00:07:52,150 --> 00:07:55,710 Speaker 2: been 16 yes there were 16 right 16 for the 143 00:07:55,990 --> 00:07:59,190 Speaker 2: 16th century that's totally why they did that and um 144 00:07:59,710 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 2: we'll get to this in a little bit but Raphael 145 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: was one of the most well-renowned artists of the time 146 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 2: and adorned many a room in the Vatican with his 147 00:08:09,980 --> 00:08:13,530 Speaker 2: incredibly elaborate, what would you call the style of Raphael, Ben? 148 00:08:14,310 --> 00:08:17,890 Speaker 1: He was the, he's considered the architect of the high Renaissance, 149 00:08:18,010 --> 00:08:22,730 Speaker 1: full name Raphael Osanzio da Urbino. And he was born 150 00:08:22,770 --> 00:08:27,030 Speaker 1: in 1483, passed away at the age of 37 in 1520. 151 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,610 Speaker 1: allegedly after a night of wild passion. 152 00:08:30,670 --> 00:08:31,990 Speaker 3: Wild passion, yeah. 153 00:08:32,150 --> 00:08:35,349 Speaker 2: All signs point to Raphael being a bit of a 154 00:08:35,390 --> 00:08:39,989 Speaker 2: horny boy and keeping company with some others of that ilk. 155 00:08:40,530 --> 00:08:43,449 Speaker 2: There was sort of a cabal of these sort of 156 00:08:43,890 --> 00:08:47,780 Speaker 2: lechy older men that kicked it in this particular palazzo 157 00:08:47,820 --> 00:08:50,780 Speaker 2: that belonged to a man who was a patron of 158 00:08:50,820 --> 00:08:51,260 Speaker 2: the arts. 159 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:55,790 Speaker 3: By the name of Agostino Chigi. Uh, Chigi? Is it 160 00:08:55,809 --> 00:08:58,290 Speaker 3: like Gili? Chigi. Chigi. I'm going to do a hard G. 161 00:08:58,800 --> 00:08:59,219 Speaker 3: What do you think? 162 00:08:59,340 --> 00:09:01,540 Speaker 1: I think it was a very smart move to put 163 00:09:01,620 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: both of those pronunciations out there. 164 00:09:03,260 --> 00:09:04,959 Speaker 3: Yeah, so yell at me about the wrong one and 165 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:06,130 Speaker 3: praise me for the correct one. 166 00:09:06,140 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: I feel like this is a thing for you. 167 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:08,020 Speaker 2: It is. 168 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:08,819 Speaker 1: It's going to be okay. 169 00:09:08,860 --> 00:09:09,300 Speaker 3: You think so? 170 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:10,460 Speaker 1: I think it'll be okay. 171 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 3: Dude, the ire of the internet never ceases to terrify me. 172 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,100 Speaker 1: Well, it's spelled C-H-I-G-I. 173 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:17,060 Speaker 3: C-H-I-G-I. 174 00:09:17,100 --> 00:09:18,020 Speaker 1: Banker to the Vatican, right? 175 00:09:18,059 --> 00:09:22,140 Speaker 2: Banker to the Vatican, like Iron Bank kind of dude, right? Serious, 176 00:09:22,210 --> 00:09:25,429 Speaker 2: like power behind the purse to the Vatican, one of 177 00:09:25,450 --> 00:09:28,990 Speaker 2: the most powerful institutions in the world. And he would have, 178 00:09:29,010 --> 00:09:32,229 Speaker 2: I don't know, I've heard them referred to as wild 179 00:09:32,309 --> 00:09:36,660 Speaker 2: garden parties. And he owned a palatial estate by the 180 00:09:36,720 --> 00:09:40,540 Speaker 2: Tiber River and had a vast collection of erotic art, 181 00:09:40,860 --> 00:09:46,780 Speaker 2: including a particularly lewd statue of Greek god and fellow 182 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,089 Speaker 2: horny boy, Pan, or Puck. 183 00:09:49,690 --> 00:09:49,990 Speaker 1: Right. 184 00:09:49,990 --> 00:09:52,870 Speaker 3: Likely anatomically correct, I think, is. 185 00:09:52,710 --> 00:09:56,020 Speaker 1: What we're getting at here. Despite his day job, his 186 00:09:56,020 --> 00:10:00,340 Speaker 1: private life was— extraordinarily hedonistic. Yeah. There's a fair way. 187 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:00,780 Speaker 3: To say this. 188 00:10:01,190 --> 00:10:03,949 Speaker 2: And he and his pals were considered libertarian, but not 189 00:10:03,990 --> 00:10:06,220 Speaker 2: the way we think of libertarianism today in terms of, 190 00:10:06,470 --> 00:10:09,870 Speaker 2: you know, being pro-weed and anti-government. 191 00:10:10,170 --> 00:10:14,150 Speaker 1: In any sense, right? Yeah. Yeah. This means that they 192 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: were in contrast to the official doctrine or public view 193 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: of the Catholic Church. They were very, let's say, open, right? 194 00:10:25,520 --> 00:10:30,460 Speaker 1: They are at this point. kind of polyamorous. Swingers. Yeah, 195 00:10:30,500 --> 00:10:36,250 Speaker 1: they're seeking all this. They're seeking the carnal pleasures. It's 196 00:10:36,300 --> 00:10:40,849 Speaker 1: similar to Hugh Hefner's Playboy Mansion. This is a surprisingly 197 00:10:40,950 --> 00:10:41,709 Speaker 1: apt comparison. 198 00:10:41,730 --> 00:10:44,329 Speaker 3: They likely had a grotto in this particular estate as well, 199 00:10:44,350 --> 00:10:44,950 Speaker 3: I would imagine. 200 00:10:45,010 --> 00:10:45,270 Speaker 2: Yes. 201 00:10:46,270 --> 00:10:49,330 Speaker 1: And they had a lot of guests amongst the upper 202 00:10:49,490 --> 00:10:52,210 Speaker 1: echelons of society at the time. One regular guest was 203 00:10:52,270 --> 00:10:57,290 Speaker 1: a writer named Pietro Aretino, and He described the erotic 204 00:10:57,390 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 1: art in this famous villa by saying, why shouldn't the 205 00:11:01,100 --> 00:11:02,860 Speaker 1: eye see what delights it most? 206 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:08,460 Speaker 2: Exactly, because the Vatican was infamous for covering up nude sculptures. 207 00:11:08,740 --> 00:11:11,700 Speaker 2: Any kind of depiction of the male nude form or 208 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,470 Speaker 2: female nude form, they would require the artist to drape it. 209 00:11:14,740 --> 00:11:19,340 Speaker 2: Like I believe Michelangelo's– some of his famous nudes were 210 00:11:19,380 --> 00:11:22,610 Speaker 2: required to be added onto with additional material to cover 211 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:22,900 Speaker 2: them up. 212 00:11:23,290 --> 00:11:25,770 Speaker 1: Kind of like the Statue of Liberty originally had. Yeah, 213 00:11:25,790 --> 00:11:27,589 Speaker 1: or like the fig leaves. Exactly. 214 00:11:27,630 --> 00:11:29,810 Speaker 3: Oh, that's right. I totally forgot about that. Or like 215 00:11:29,850 --> 00:11:31,620 Speaker 3: the famous fig leaves of Adam and Eve and all 216 00:11:31,630 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 3: that stuff. 217 00:11:31,890 --> 00:11:32,380 Speaker 1: Totally. 218 00:11:32,670 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 2: But I think that Artino very accurately summed up what 219 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:39,140 Speaker 2: this whole kind of cabal of dudes with their whole 220 00:11:39,179 --> 00:11:43,920 Speaker 2: like kind of philosophy of life kind of Fidelio kind 221 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:44,870 Speaker 2: of vibe was all about. 222 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,710 Speaker 3: Why shouldn't the eye see what delights it most? Exactly. 223 00:11:47,730 --> 00:11:56,650 Speaker 1: So. In his bedroom, the banker, Chigi, had a fresco 224 00:11:56,929 --> 00:12:02,069 Speaker 1: of Alexander the Great in a sexually explicit position with 225 00:12:02,110 --> 00:12:07,050 Speaker 1: his wife, Roxanne, and Raphael himself. Like, Raphael is famous 226 00:12:07,090 --> 00:12:07,630 Speaker 1: at this time. 227 00:12:07,790 --> 00:12:08,130 Speaker 3: Big time. 228 00:12:08,230 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: He has a team of people working under him, so 229 00:12:12,030 --> 00:12:14,270 Speaker 1: it's a big deal that he himself paints some of 230 00:12:14,340 --> 00:12:20,219 Speaker 1: the most famous frescoes in the villa. But according to 231 00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:26,500 Speaker 1: his biographer... an author named Vasari, Raphael himself couldn't work 232 00:12:26,620 --> 00:12:31,510 Speaker 1: properly in this environment because Vasari says the guy had 233 00:12:31,650 --> 00:12:36,089 Speaker 1: a sex addiction. So Raphael's lover at the time had 234 00:12:36,130 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: to be given a bedroom in the location. So he 235 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: would paint and then go fool around and then go 236 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,050 Speaker 1: back and paint, rinse and repeat. And this, according again 237 00:12:48,090 --> 00:12:51,069 Speaker 1: to his biographer, is what is what actually this is 238 00:12:51,090 --> 00:12:53,100 Speaker 1: the situation that led to his death at the early 239 00:12:53,179 --> 00:12:58,020 Speaker 1: age of 37. And he left when he passed away. 240 00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,530 Speaker 1: He left his his business, his work. to his most 241 00:13:02,770 --> 00:13:07,330 Speaker 1: talented assistant, a guy named Giulio Romano or Giulio Romano. 242 00:13:07,470 --> 00:13:09,090 Speaker 2: Let's think about him the way we might think of 243 00:13:09,130 --> 00:13:11,689 Speaker 2: a modern street artist today, right? A lot of these 244 00:13:11,770 --> 00:13:14,890 Speaker 2: folks are known as the, you know, power behind the 245 00:13:14,929 --> 00:13:17,490 Speaker 2: throne and like the style guide of like this. 246 00:13:17,530 --> 00:13:19,350 Speaker 3: You know, everything associated with this person's brand. 247 00:13:19,950 --> 00:13:22,429 Speaker 2: But everyone from like a shepherd fairy to likely a 248 00:13:22,470 --> 00:13:24,990 Speaker 2: Banksy or whatever has like teams of people working with 249 00:13:25,030 --> 00:13:27,370 Speaker 2: them to help them recreate their work and like do 250 00:13:27,390 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 2: it in different locations, especially when it comes to like 251 00:13:29,790 --> 00:13:33,770 Speaker 2: reproducible stuff. And so this assistant was kind of his 252 00:13:33,830 --> 00:13:36,589 Speaker 2: right-hand man and could literally take the baton and kind 253 00:13:36,610 --> 00:13:40,210 Speaker 2: of like keep the business going after his, you know, 254 00:13:40,710 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 2: what would you call it? 255 00:13:41,370 --> 00:13:42,449 Speaker 3: His master? 256 00:13:42,650 --> 00:13:42,829 Speaker 2: No. 257 00:13:44,210 --> 00:13:44,770 Speaker 1: His boss? 258 00:13:44,809 --> 00:13:47,890 Speaker 3: I guess his boss, yeah. His mentor? His mentor. After he, 259 00:13:48,700 --> 00:13:50,670 Speaker 3: you know, had a very erotic death. 260 00:13:51,179 --> 00:13:55,300 Speaker 1: A very erotic death. The story of Raphael. Yes. And 261 00:13:55,400 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 1: so now this guy is the successor here. Romano is 262 00:14:00,580 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: in charge of this team. He has inherited this. One 263 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:09,950 Speaker 1: of the connections he inherits is a printmaker named Marcantonio Ramondi. 264 00:14:10,250 --> 00:14:12,850 Speaker 2: I want to backtrack here just slightly. Not backtrack really, 265 00:14:13,090 --> 00:14:15,089 Speaker 2: but this is where the story diverges a little bit. 266 00:14:15,610 --> 00:14:19,490 Speaker 2: I've seen a couple spots that say, okay, he was 267 00:14:19,750 --> 00:14:24,870 Speaker 2: hired to paint that Constantine room, which was considered one 268 00:14:24,910 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 2: of the Raphael rooms in the Vatican. Because Raphael had 269 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,060 Speaker 2: done many of them, but then this room was left 270 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:33,900 Speaker 2: uncompleted when he had passed away. So his assistant was 271 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,380 Speaker 2: supposed to go in there and finish it. I've seen that. 272 00:14:36,660 --> 00:14:39,660 Speaker 2: And then I know Pope Leo X was going to 273 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:43,250 Speaker 2: make Raphael like an honorary high church official because of 274 00:14:43,290 --> 00:14:45,230 Speaker 2: all his work that he had done. It's really funny 275 00:14:45,270 --> 00:14:48,350 Speaker 2: considering that he was a known sex addict and kind 276 00:14:48,390 --> 00:14:51,150 Speaker 2: of lech. But that didn't come to fruition because he, 277 00:14:51,190 --> 00:14:55,710 Speaker 2: of course, passed away. But whoever employed his assistant to 278 00:14:55,730 --> 00:14:59,350 Speaker 2: supposedly paint this room. The assistant got irritated at him, 279 00:14:59,590 --> 00:15:03,030 Speaker 2: legend says, and he instead decided to paint these 16 280 00:15:03,030 --> 00:15:04,820 Speaker 2: erotic scenes on these panels. 281 00:15:05,620 --> 00:15:05,740 Speaker 1: Right. 282 00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:06,840 Speaker 3: That's one version of the story. 283 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,340 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there are a couple of different versions. So 284 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: before Raphael's death, just to rewind in time a bit, 285 00:15:13,580 --> 00:15:17,700 Speaker 1: in 1516, a guy named Cardinal Bibiana commissions Raphael to 286 00:15:17,860 --> 00:15:24,060 Speaker 1: decorate His personal bathroom with these nude nymphs bathing while 287 00:15:24,420 --> 00:15:29,310 Speaker 1: very anatomically correct satyrs are spying on them. And this 288 00:15:29,550 --> 00:15:35,470 Speaker 1: only flies because the cardinal's bathroom is considered a private place, right? 289 00:15:35,610 --> 00:15:39,670 Speaker 1: So these various works of art, explicit sexual art, were 290 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:43,180 Speaker 1: never meant to be a matter of public discussion or 291 00:15:43,220 --> 00:15:46,730 Speaker 1: even public knowledge, right? It goes– it's the same way 292 00:15:46,750 --> 00:15:49,510 Speaker 1: with the erotic frescoes on the walls of the Sala 293 00:15:49,530 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: di Constantino. Whether they were commissioned or drawn out of spite, right, 294 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: that's the big divergence on the story. They were either 295 00:15:56,580 --> 00:16:00,230 Speaker 1: commissioned on purpose or drawn as kind of a troll. 296 00:16:00,330 --> 00:16:02,450 Speaker 3: Well, it is a divergence of the story. 297 00:16:02,470 --> 00:16:04,030 Speaker 2: But then I've also seen a version of the story 298 00:16:04,070 --> 00:16:06,700 Speaker 2: where the Vatican doesn't come into it at all. Like 299 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,390 Speaker 2: where this guy just drew these himself and then had them– 300 00:16:10,540 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 2: And then had the printmaker– Had the printmaker disseminate them. 301 00:16:14,060 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 2: Because that's where we get into more of the idea 302 00:16:16,180 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 2: of this thing as this collection of nudes as being 303 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 2: the first form of widely circulated pornography. 304 00:16:23,340 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: Right. The 16 postures as they came to be known. 305 00:16:28,700 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: So the printer, Marcantonio Raimondi, engraves and prints– these explicit 306 00:16:36,820 --> 00:16:41,570 Speaker 1: illustrations of sex acts drawn by Romano, and he publishes 307 00:16:41,620 --> 00:16:46,010 Speaker 1: this in 1524 under the title I, Modi, which translates 308 00:16:46,190 --> 00:16:51,370 Speaker 1: as The Positions. And this is not erotica. This is not, 309 00:16:51,450 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: you know, some sort of sensitive exploration of the human 310 00:16:54,250 --> 00:16:57,420 Speaker 1: aesthetic visually. This is pornography. 311 00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:59,980 Speaker 3: Yeah, dude, I'm looking at them right now. They are really. 312 00:17:00,620 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: They're NSFW. 313 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 3: They really, really are. 314 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:04,430 Speaker 2: If you want to get a look at them, If 315 00:17:04,450 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 2: you're really interested, you can go. There's an article on 316 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:08,859 Speaker 2: dangerousminds.net that has all of them. 317 00:17:09,119 --> 00:17:11,020 Speaker 3: Actually, that's not true. We'll get to this. 318 00:17:11,060 --> 00:17:13,820 Speaker 2: They ultimately are lost to time. But the idea of 319 00:17:13,859 --> 00:17:17,139 Speaker 2: what they are was recreated because it created like a 320 00:17:17,180 --> 00:17:19,460 Speaker 2: whole new genre of stuff, you know, which is like 321 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,010 Speaker 2: let's depict sex acts in as frank a way as 322 00:17:22,030 --> 00:17:26,190 Speaker 2: humanly possible, often with satyrs and mythical creatures as well. 323 00:17:26,230 --> 00:17:27,550 Speaker 2: So you're going to see a lot of that stuff. 324 00:17:27,770 --> 00:17:30,109 Speaker 2: So if you want to catch that yourself, it is NSFW, 325 00:17:30,150 --> 00:17:32,470 Speaker 2: as Ben said. You can go to dangerousminds.net. And the 326 00:17:32,490 --> 00:17:34,869 Speaker 2: headline is An 18th Century Guide to Sex Positions. So 327 00:17:34,890 --> 00:17:36,070 Speaker 2: you can just search for that right there. 328 00:17:36,109 --> 00:17:36,530 Speaker 3: Great site. 329 00:17:36,890 --> 00:17:39,530 Speaker 1: And I'm sure many people have just probably run into 330 00:17:39,570 --> 00:17:40,530 Speaker 1: that earlier. Sure. 331 00:17:41,010 --> 00:17:41,690 Speaker 3: Why wouldn't you have? 332 00:17:41,750 --> 00:17:44,810 Speaker 1: Why would you not? So according, let's go back to 333 00:17:44,830 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: this divergence in the story. According to Lynn Launer, who 334 00:17:47,950 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 1: is an art historian focusing on the Renaissance in Italy, 335 00:17:52,060 --> 00:17:56,340 Speaker 1: in 1523, Giulio began the decoration of the Sala di 336 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,540 Speaker 1: Constantino in the Vatican. And the pope at the time, 337 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,170 Speaker 1: Clement VII, was tardy in paying the bill. 338 00:18:04,910 --> 00:18:05,510 Speaker 3: Hence the beef. 339 00:18:05,810 --> 00:18:09,250 Speaker 1: And hence the beef. And so then he says, all right, 340 00:18:09,290 --> 00:18:11,389 Speaker 1: you know what? I'll keep working, but I'm going to 341 00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:13,210 Speaker 1: draw these 16 postures. 342 00:18:13,250 --> 00:18:16,620 Speaker 3: That doesn't make sense. That would be a real risk 343 00:18:16,650 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 3: to do that. Don't you think? 344 00:18:18,060 --> 00:18:20,260 Speaker 2: Do you think he felt like totally above the law 345 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 2: that he could like essentially graffiti this guy's walls with 346 00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 2: what would be considered filth? You know, because let's not 347 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,580 Speaker 2: forget the collected versions of these. 348 00:18:30,619 --> 00:18:31,760 Speaker 3: We're jumping around in time a little bit. 349 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:32,060 Speaker 1: Yeah. 350 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,619 Speaker 2: Ultimately end up getting the printer, whose name is escaping 351 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 2: me now, Ben. 352 00:18:37,020 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 3: Who's the printer? 353 00:18:37,700 --> 00:18:38,590 Speaker 1: Raimondi. 354 00:18:38,619 --> 00:18:41,770 Speaker 3: Raimondi. Getting him thrown in jail by the pope. 355 00:18:42,190 --> 00:18:46,630 Speaker 2: So the idea of maybe some of these nudes existing 356 00:18:46,670 --> 00:18:49,790 Speaker 2: behind closed doors, like you said, Ben, in private, maybe 357 00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:52,649 Speaker 2: wouldn't have caused the pope to totally go full ham 358 00:18:53,100 --> 00:18:55,770 Speaker 2: on it and trying to censor it out. But once 359 00:18:55,830 --> 00:19:00,950 Speaker 2: it starts being disseminated, you know, in printed form, it's 360 00:19:01,030 --> 00:19:02,590 Speaker 2: like something that has to be. 361 00:19:02,530 --> 00:19:05,830 Speaker 1: Squashed, right? Let's talk a little bit about Pope Clement 362 00:19:06,410 --> 00:19:09,750 Speaker 1: VII as well. He's a real peach. So he was 363 00:19:09,830 --> 00:19:11,290 Speaker 1: pope from 1523 to 1534. He was known for being 364 00:19:11,310 --> 00:19:14,630 Speaker 1: a bit of a flip-flopper. He didn't really keep his word. 365 00:19:20,950 --> 00:19:24,790 Speaker 1: He would make and break alliances with France, Spain, and 366 00:19:24,830 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 1: Germany over the course of his papacy. He was inclined 367 00:19:30,170 --> 00:19:33,820 Speaker 1: to changing his political views to match those of whomever 368 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: was the most powerful and wealthy at the time. And 369 00:19:37,460 --> 00:19:40,400 Speaker 1: as a result, his critics said that he was not 370 00:19:40,460 --> 00:19:43,369 Speaker 1: to be trusted. So he was the sort of– at 371 00:19:43,430 --> 00:19:46,310 Speaker 1: least from what we can tell historically, he was the 372 00:19:46,350 --> 00:19:49,369 Speaker 1: sort of person who would attempt to swindle people out 373 00:19:49,410 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 1: of money. which is where this whole thing begins. If 374 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,660 Speaker 1: you trust the historians who say that the postures arrive 375 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,139 Speaker 1: out of spite. When the 16 postures are published, as 376 00:20:01,180 --> 00:20:04,470 Speaker 1: you said, Raimondi is thrown in jail by Clement VII. 377 00:20:05,030 --> 00:20:09,020 Speaker 1: And because the printmaker has some powerful friends, He is 378 00:20:09,180 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: eventually released, but you can't screw the lid back on 379 00:20:13,460 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 1: Pandora's jar here. 380 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,020 Speaker 3: Oh, no. It's out. 381 00:20:16,060 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 2: Not only did they not screw the lid back on 382 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,899 Speaker 2: Pandora's jar, they bespoke the jar even further. 383 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:21,140 Speaker 1: Right. 384 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,419 Speaker 2: Because remember that guy, Arantino, we talked about, who had 385 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,080 Speaker 2: that fantastic quote about give the eyes what they want 386 00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:30,419 Speaker 2: or whatever? He really wanted to double down and lean 387 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:36,700 Speaker 2: into that because he composed 16 absolutely filthy, raunchy sonnets 388 00:20:37,140 --> 00:20:42,380 Speaker 2: that described– Each of the scenes in poetically graphic detail. 389 00:20:42,980 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 2: And in an introduction to this book, the new edition, 390 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 2: this is sort of an incantation to the reader. 391 00:20:50,540 --> 00:20:52,180 Speaker 1: An invocation. Yes, exactly. 392 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:57,460 Speaker 3: Invocation of the muses of raunchiness. Quote, come view this, 393 00:20:57,859 --> 00:21:00,740 Speaker 3: you who like to f * * *. Okay. 394 00:21:00,770 --> 00:21:00,850 Speaker 1: Okay. 395 00:21:01,890 --> 00:21:05,290 Speaker 2: Without being disturbed in that sweet enterprise. I would have 396 00:21:05,310 --> 00:21:07,270 Speaker 2: added a second sweet. I would have been that sweet, 397 00:21:07,290 --> 00:21:08,690 Speaker 2: sweet enterprise. 398 00:21:09,530 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: Well, we have the benefit of hindsight in retrospect. Editorialism. 399 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: So this is a blockbuster. 400 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 3: Absolute smash. No pun intended. 401 00:21:19,859 --> 00:21:24,860 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. It's strange because Romano, the guy who has 402 00:21:25,380 --> 00:21:30,369 Speaker 1: made these images, has already absconded from Rome. He is 403 00:21:30,390 --> 00:21:35,810 Speaker 1: a court artist. in Mantua, and Raimondi, you know, before 404 00:21:35,850 --> 00:21:38,310 Speaker 1: he was released, he was stuck in prison by himself, 405 00:21:38,990 --> 00:21:42,910 Speaker 1: and the church attempted to seize and destroy all copies 406 00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:44,909 Speaker 1: of the book. They didn't want that getting out. 407 00:21:45,090 --> 00:21:49,210 Speaker 3: The church is really good at eradicating unflattering literature, aren't. 408 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 1: They, Ben? Yeah, but in 1527, Imodi was reissued with 409 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:59,300 Speaker 1: those licentious poems we mentioned earlier, and it became a blockbuster. 410 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,449 Speaker 1: It was selling out across Europe. And the book had 411 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,780 Speaker 1: many names. It was called Imodi, The Posture, The Fashion. 412 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,860 Speaker 1: It's also known as Arentino's Postures, The Sixteen Pleasures, or 413 00:22:12,220 --> 00:22:14,859 Speaker 1: De Omnibus Veneris Schematibus. 414 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:16,260 Speaker 3: Veneris, huh? 415 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 2: That's Latin. What does schematibus mean? It must mean some 416 00:22:20,550 --> 00:22:22,490 Speaker 2: form of position. In fact, when I Google the word, 417 00:22:22,510 --> 00:22:24,450 Speaker 2: the first thing that comes up is Imodi again. So 418 00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:29,169 Speaker 2: that obviously just refers to the function and practice of 419 00:22:29,390 --> 00:22:32,930 Speaker 2: moving things. The limbs are out in particular arrays, right? 420 00:22:33,290 --> 00:22:37,730 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So this did more than just make money 421 00:22:37,930 --> 00:22:39,869 Speaker 1: and get people thrown in jail, though. It was one 422 00:22:39,910 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: of those rare works of erotica or let's be honest, 423 00:22:42,910 --> 00:22:47,060 Speaker 1: pornography that jumped from niche to mainstream. You know what 424 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,959 Speaker 1: I mean? It's sort of like in a way it's 425 00:22:51,060 --> 00:22:53,010 Speaker 1: similar to Fifty Shades of Grey. 426 00:22:53,290 --> 00:22:53,830 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's true. 427 00:22:53,850 --> 00:22:57,110 Speaker 2: And there's a really great article from Atlas Obscura called 428 00:22:57,230 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 2: Europe's First Pornographic Blockbuster Was Made in the Vatican that 429 00:23:00,820 --> 00:23:03,900 Speaker 2: makes that very connection. Or something like Deep Throat, which 430 00:23:03,940 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 2: was a pornographic film that became pretty widely disseminated and 431 00:23:07,580 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 2: almost like tongue-in-cheekedly disseminated. Talked about in, you know, polite 432 00:23:12,790 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 2: social circles. 433 00:23:13,830 --> 00:23:18,430 Speaker 1: Right, right. People would performatively clutch their pearls. Tee hee. Yeah, 434 00:23:18,450 --> 00:23:19,510 Speaker 1: and hide their faces. 435 00:23:19,609 --> 00:23:20,209 Speaker 3: Exactly. 436 00:23:20,390 --> 00:23:22,730 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you refer to it as a joke. You 437 00:23:22,750 --> 00:23:24,369 Speaker 1: know what I mean? To be a little bit edgy 438 00:23:24,790 --> 00:23:28,450 Speaker 1: in conversation. Some people will even argue that William Shakespeare 439 00:23:28,470 --> 00:23:34,130 Speaker 1: himself snuck a reference to this book in A Winter's 440 00:23:34,190 --> 00:23:38,930 Speaker 1: Tale when he talks about that rare Italian master, Julio Romano. 441 00:23:39,790 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 1: There was a 16th century Italian phrasebook that was aimed 442 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: at English tourists, and it taught them how to ask 443 00:23:48,500 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 1: in Italian for the works of Arentino at bookstores. 444 00:23:52,060 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 3: It's a must, dude. 445 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,510 Speaker 2: But alas, I guess I'm going to say alas. I mean, thankfully, 446 00:23:58,530 --> 00:24:00,730 Speaker 2: we have these lovely recreations that you can see on 447 00:24:00,750 --> 00:24:04,129 Speaker 2: the Dangerous Minds site. But the book itself, and as 448 00:24:04,170 --> 00:24:06,709 Speaker 2: far as I know, the text of the sonnets, are 449 00:24:06,750 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 2: pretty much were successfully eradicated by the Vatican. 450 00:24:09,910 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: And the original frescoes as well. 451 00:24:11,740 --> 00:24:12,880 Speaker 3: The original frescoes as well. 452 00:24:12,980 --> 00:24:16,700 Speaker 2: If you'd like to believe that they're buried underneath those, 453 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 2: you know, paintings of Constantine, the life of Constantine, you know, 454 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,459 Speaker 2: that's possibly one way you could uncover that mystery. 455 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,169 Speaker 3: If you want to go in there and start scraping 456 00:24:24,210 --> 00:24:25,610 Speaker 3: away the paint, not recommending that. 457 00:24:25,810 --> 00:24:27,650 Speaker 1: Wait, wait, wait. I'll recommend. 458 00:24:27,670 --> 00:24:29,669 Speaker 3: Vatican's serious business, dude. They will throw you in some 459 00:24:29,690 --> 00:24:30,850 Speaker 3: sort of like dungeon. 460 00:24:31,130 --> 00:24:37,500 Speaker 1: Listen to me carefully, grad students, art historians. My spider 461 00:24:37,540 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: sense tells me there might be a grant in here, 462 00:24:40,140 --> 00:24:41,340 Speaker 1: maybe even a dissertation. 463 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 3: Surely there's a way you could x-ray them or something 464 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,850 Speaker 3: and penetrate. I mean, I'm not sure exactly how technology works, really. 465 00:24:47,869 --> 00:24:49,070 Speaker 3: That's not what kind of show this is. 466 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,390 Speaker 1: But it's true that there were illegal or bootleg copies 467 00:24:53,470 --> 00:24:57,270 Speaker 1: of iModi or things purporting to be iModi that were 468 00:24:57,450 --> 00:25:00,970 Speaker 1: printed for over a century afterwards, well into the 1600s. 469 00:25:01,650 --> 00:25:05,010 Speaker 1: There's no way to know how many works were printed. 470 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 1: But because churches and governments cooperated to hunt down and 471 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:15,530 Speaker 1: destroy the copies, at least with as much enthusiasm as 472 00:25:15,630 --> 00:25:19,010 Speaker 1: people sought to collect and print them, we don't have 473 00:25:19,270 --> 00:25:24,340 Speaker 1: a record of the actual 16 postures that were depicted. 474 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 3: There's a few. 475 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:26,500 Speaker 1: There's a few. We don't have all of them. 476 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 3: A few little scrappies that remain in the collection of 477 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 3: the British Museum. 478 00:25:34,690 --> 00:25:37,190 Speaker 1: We do have the sonnets. I found some and off 479 00:25:37,230 --> 00:25:41,899 Speaker 1: the air, I sent these to you as well. They're, 480 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,340 Speaker 1: you know, you can blame a little bit on the translation, 481 00:25:45,380 --> 00:25:47,660 Speaker 1: but they're pretty, they're pretty bawdy. 482 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,440 Speaker 3: Let's like Canterbury Tales bawdy or like. 483 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:59,220 Speaker 1: Wow. Wow. Ben. So, okay. So we'll, I'll, I'll read 484 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,160 Speaker 1: one and we'll, we'll need to beep this. So Paul, 485 00:26:03,180 --> 00:26:06,420 Speaker 1: I'm going to make eye contact with you. Be ready 486 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:06,700 Speaker 1: for this. 487 00:26:06,740 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 3: That's some intense eye contact right there. 488 00:26:08,820 --> 00:26:12,970 Speaker 1: Eye movement here, yeah. Okay, here we go. Stick your 489 00:26:13,010 --> 00:26:16,609 Speaker 1: finger up my a * *, old man. Thrust Kazo 490 00:26:16,630 --> 00:26:19,030 Speaker 1: in a little at a time. Lift up my leg. 491 00:26:19,270 --> 00:26:22,480 Speaker 1: Maneuver well. Now pound with all inhibitions gone. Oh, I 492 00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:23,260 Speaker 1: got bad. 493 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:23,800 Speaker 3: It's worse. 494 00:26:24,100 --> 00:26:26,940 Speaker 1: I believe this is a tastier feast than eating garlic 495 00:26:26,980 --> 00:26:28,060 Speaker 1: bread before a fire. 496 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:28,929 Speaker 3: It goes on. 497 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,459 Speaker 1: Okay. Wow. Not what you were expecting? No. 498 00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:34,770 Speaker 2: See, when you start bringing the food metaphors in there, 499 00:26:35,109 --> 00:26:37,070 Speaker 2: that's when it really turns me, dude. 500 00:26:37,390 --> 00:26:39,010 Speaker 3: And we should talk about this because we talked about this. 501 00:26:39,190 --> 00:26:41,070 Speaker 3: We can totally not read any of those ever again. 502 00:26:42,570 --> 00:26:44,220 Speaker 1: Yeah. I took one for the team on that one. 503 00:26:44,300 --> 00:26:44,540 Speaker 3: Oh, man. 504 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:45,100 Speaker 2: Oh, God. 505 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: Okay. 506 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 3: Oh, my good heavens. 507 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: Okay. Sorry. 508 00:26:49,140 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 3: Speaking of pearl clutching, I'm being, I'm kind of, I'm 509 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 3: kind of a prude. I am very much blushing. Listen though, 510 00:26:55,340 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 3: we gotta, we gotta get this out of the way. 511 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,090 Speaker 2: Uh, before we went on the air, we were deciding 512 00:26:59,170 --> 00:27:01,330 Speaker 2: whether or not to look, whether to use the word 513 00:27:01,369 --> 00:27:05,390 Speaker 2: pornography or porn. And you, Ben mentioned that you always 514 00:27:05,430 --> 00:27:09,170 Speaker 2: felt the word porn was more salacious nowadays. And we 515 00:27:09,190 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 2: were trying to figure out why that was. 516 00:27:10,300 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: I don't know why. Yeah. It must, it must entirely 517 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,180 Speaker 1: be a subjective thing. I guess, um, Pornography at least 518 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,140 Speaker 1: sounds a little more academic, I guess. And also there's 519 00:27:21,220 --> 00:27:24,980 Speaker 1: something that puts me ill at ease when people describe 520 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:29,510 Speaker 1: non-sexual things as porn, like when people say, oh, food porn. 521 00:27:30,250 --> 00:27:32,890 Speaker 1: Or even when, you know, I saw somebody who was, 522 00:27:33,170 --> 00:27:37,709 Speaker 1: I met someone's dog. I love dogs. And I was 523 00:27:37,770 --> 00:27:41,790 Speaker 1: rubbing this dog's belly and the dog's owner says, oh, yeah, 524 00:27:42,090 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 1: she's like such a slut for belly rubs. And that 525 00:27:44,380 --> 00:27:46,740 Speaker 1: was really gross to me. I'm just scratching the stock. 526 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I mean, people are taking that word back. 527 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 2: But I think that that's a good point. I really 528 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:53,659 Speaker 2: am with you on the food stuff. Like, I don't 529 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:55,640 Speaker 2: think either one of us like it when someone describes 530 00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,540 Speaker 2: a bite of cake as orgasmic or sumptuous. 531 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,390 Speaker 3: No, it turns me, it turns my, exquisite is fine. 532 00:28:03,410 --> 00:28:04,949 Speaker 3: That's not inherently sexual. 533 00:28:05,290 --> 00:28:06,830 Speaker 1: I was just feeling the riff. Yeah. 534 00:28:06,970 --> 00:28:07,430 Speaker 3: No, it's true. 535 00:28:07,590 --> 00:28:08,810 Speaker 2: But I think we've gotten to the bottom of it. 536 00:28:08,810 --> 00:28:10,150 Speaker 2: And I think both of us feel the same way. 537 00:28:10,190 --> 00:28:12,590 Speaker 2: But I think we used a combination of porn and 538 00:28:12,630 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 2: pornography in this episode because it was, you know, It 539 00:28:15,460 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 2: was about all the many shades, 50 shades of Renaissance erotica. 540 00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:24,110 Speaker 2: And that's also, I think, why that sonnet really did 541 00:28:24,150 --> 00:28:26,010 Speaker 2: it for me, not in a good way. Because once 542 00:28:26,030 --> 00:28:28,230 Speaker 2: you started bringing garlic bread into the equation, I'm like, 543 00:28:28,290 --> 00:28:29,510 Speaker 2: leave garlic bread out of this, okay? 544 00:28:29,570 --> 00:28:33,570 Speaker 1: I'm so pro snack, man. Oh, dude. It's funny because 545 00:28:33,710 --> 00:28:37,869 Speaker 1: this is our producer Maya's literal favorite. first day. 546 00:28:37,930 --> 00:28:38,729 Speaker 3: We did warn her. 547 00:28:38,910 --> 00:28:41,110 Speaker 1: We tried to. 548 00:28:41,150 --> 00:28:42,190 Speaker 3: We're not a naughty show. 549 00:28:42,330 --> 00:28:47,050 Speaker 1: We're not. We are nothing if not wholesome in general. 550 00:28:47,730 --> 00:28:51,810 Speaker 1: But this is fascinating because I think a lot of 551 00:28:51,950 --> 00:28:55,650 Speaker 1: people who enjoy reading about the history of the Catholic Church, 552 00:28:55,690 --> 00:28:58,890 Speaker 1: I think a lot of us are familiar with the 553 00:28:59,060 --> 00:29:03,780 Speaker 1: scandalous popes of years gone by, but we're maybe not 554 00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: as aware of the The pornography that the Catholic Church 555 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:12,420 Speaker 1: unwittingly created. 556 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:13,700 Speaker 3: Unleashed on the world. 557 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:14,820 Speaker 1: Unleashed. That's a great word. 558 00:29:14,860 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 3: That's it. That's the thing, though, right? 559 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:17,940 Speaker 2: I mean, it's sort of like the idea of, I 560 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,430 Speaker 2: don't know, prostitution or sex work being the oldest profession. 561 00:29:21,450 --> 00:29:22,010 Speaker 3: I don't know. 562 00:29:22,030 --> 00:29:23,830 Speaker 2: That's sort of a misnomer, probably. But it makes sense 563 00:29:23,870 --> 00:29:26,790 Speaker 2: because it's a thing that people. In some form or 564 00:29:26,830 --> 00:29:29,250 Speaker 2: fashion need. It's like a gap people need filled. Well, 565 00:29:29,290 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 2: that's very, very graphic sounding. But in terms of like 566 00:29:32,180 --> 00:29:35,100 Speaker 2: there's artists, why wouldn't artists do this? It's sort of 567 00:29:35,300 --> 00:29:37,650 Speaker 2: I wonder if they didn't even realize like the idea 568 00:29:37,710 --> 00:29:39,950 Speaker 2: that this can be a stand in for actual. 569 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:40,840 Speaker 1: Sex. 570 00:29:41,980 --> 00:29:44,220 Speaker 2: Because someone had to invent the idea of pornography. 571 00:29:44,380 --> 00:29:50,250 Speaker 1: Right. I think it's parallel thinking. I'm fairly certain. Many 572 00:29:50,330 --> 00:29:53,050 Speaker 1: lonely people invented the idea of pornography. 573 00:29:53,090 --> 00:29:53,930 Speaker 3: Cave paintings, you think? 574 00:29:53,990 --> 00:29:54,310 Speaker 1: On their own. 575 00:29:54,370 --> 00:29:55,350 Speaker 3: Erotic cave paintings? 576 00:29:55,410 --> 00:29:58,670 Speaker 1: Sure. And sculptures, you know, the Venus figures. 577 00:29:58,730 --> 00:30:00,620 Speaker 3: That's right. Color me naive, Ben. 578 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: You know, I've got to admit, I'm usually laser focused 579 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,340 Speaker 1: when we're exploring these fascinating stories, Noel. But I still 580 00:30:08,380 --> 00:30:13,140 Speaker 1: have this PDF up and it is startling. Yeah. It 581 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,490 Speaker 1: is a splash of cold water. It really is. So 582 00:30:17,710 --> 00:30:22,030 Speaker 1: you can find this book. You can find translations of 583 00:30:22,070 --> 00:30:28,450 Speaker 1: it available on Amazon. Again, categorically, emphatically, not safe for work. 584 00:30:28,530 --> 00:30:32,820 Speaker 1: But what a strange book. amazing story. And what a 585 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:34,740 Speaker 1: bizarre effect this had on the world. 586 00:30:34,820 --> 00:30:36,540 Speaker 3: We're okay though, right? We looked at it at work. 587 00:30:37,020 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. 588 00:30:37,300 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 3: It's sort of our job. 589 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 1: It is. It is literally our job. We had a 590 00:30:40,550 --> 00:30:43,630 Speaker 1: reason for it. If it comes at us, we can 591 00:30:43,710 --> 00:30:46,770 Speaker 1: say we were doing this for an episode. 592 00:30:46,790 --> 00:30:49,890 Speaker 3: Yep. At least I was, I don't want to, I mean, I'm, I'm, 593 00:30:49,970 --> 00:30:51,930 Speaker 3: I'm along for the ride for you. I'm hanging onto 594 00:30:51,970 --> 00:30:52,570 Speaker 3: your coattails. 595 00:30:52,890 --> 00:30:55,380 Speaker 1: I'm hanging onto your coattails. Where are we going? 596 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,620 Speaker 3: We are going home or to the bar or something. 597 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: That's right. This concludes today's episode, but not our show. 598 00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:09,310 Speaker 1: We do hope you enjoyed this strange journey wherein both 599 00:31:09,350 --> 00:31:14,530 Speaker 1: of us did take some off-air breaks laughing a bit 600 00:31:15,070 --> 00:31:17,970 Speaker 1: because we're emotionally both probably, what, nine, ten? Yeah. 601 00:31:18,210 --> 00:31:19,810 Speaker 3: Between us. Combined. 602 00:31:19,950 --> 00:31:22,050 Speaker 1: Combined. That's a cumulative effect. 603 00:31:22,390 --> 00:31:24,710 Speaker 3: Our powers combined, we are a nine-year-old boy. 604 00:31:25,270 --> 00:31:29,180 Speaker 1: Great. So... We want to hear your stories, too. What 605 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:34,170 Speaker 1: are some of the weird, scandalous tales of art in 606 00:31:34,250 --> 00:31:35,410 Speaker 1: years gone by? 607 00:31:35,490 --> 00:31:36,990 Speaker 3: Did you end up with a copy of the Kama 608 00:31:37,010 --> 00:31:38,550 Speaker 3: Sutra when you were 14? 609 00:31:38,550 --> 00:31:39,590 Speaker 1: I did. You did? 610 00:31:39,670 --> 00:31:40,070 Speaker 3: Sure did. 611 00:31:40,790 --> 00:31:43,170 Speaker 1: I saw one, but I never had my own copy. 612 00:31:43,190 --> 00:31:46,190 Speaker 1: I had it hidden under my mattress. Is this TMI? 613 00:31:47,010 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 3: That's fine. I'm going with it. 614 00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:50,250 Speaker 1: No, that's good. Good for you, man. It feels kind 615 00:31:50,310 --> 00:31:50,930 Speaker 1: of academic. 616 00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 3: It's academic, and it's also personally liberating for me. 617 00:31:54,820 --> 00:31:55,620 Speaker 1: There you go, man. 618 00:31:55,780 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 3: But thanks for joining us for the show. 619 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:01,810 Speaker 2: Thanks, as always, to our super producer, Paul, Mission Control Deccan, Labouche, 620 00:32:01,980 --> 00:32:02,690 Speaker 2: Casey Pegram. 621 00:32:03,210 --> 00:32:04,310 Speaker 3: We'll be back very soon. 622 00:32:04,330 --> 00:32:09,850 Speaker 1: It's true. He's returning. Thanks also to Christopher Haciotis. Thanks 623 00:32:09,890 --> 00:32:14,450 Speaker 1: to our research associate, Gabe. Thanks to... Alex Williams, who 624 00:32:14,510 --> 00:32:17,310 Speaker 1: composed that nifty little riff you hear at the opening 625 00:32:17,370 --> 00:32:17,930 Speaker 1: of every show. 626 00:32:18,190 --> 00:32:19,820 Speaker 2: By the way, we promised to do this on a 627 00:32:19,860 --> 00:32:21,870 Speaker 2: previous episode but did not get to it. 628 00:32:22,100 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: What's that? 629 00:32:22,620 --> 00:32:25,700 Speaker 2: Just want to point out that Alex's fantastic new show, Ephemeral, 630 00:32:26,020 --> 00:32:28,940 Speaker 2: is live in the feed on any place you get 631 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,550 Speaker 2: your podcasts. And the episode he talked with us about 632 00:32:31,830 --> 00:32:34,729 Speaker 2: concerning the Collier brothers, we had said on the episode 633 00:32:34,770 --> 00:32:36,570 Speaker 2: that it wasn't coming out for another month or so. 634 00:32:36,910 --> 00:32:39,130 Speaker 2: He actually switched it up, and it is now out 635 00:32:39,270 --> 00:32:41,380 Speaker 2: in the ephemeral feed. So go catch that and get 636 00:32:41,410 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 2: the whole story of these weird kind of hermity hoarder brothers. 637 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 1: Good save. Good save. Well done and well put, though, 638 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: because we did assure him, yeah, we'll do it. We'll 639 00:32:53,020 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: do it in a previous episode. But now we have 640 00:32:54,940 --> 00:32:57,220 Speaker 1: finally made good on it. Alex, if you are listening, 641 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,900 Speaker 1: every soon-to-be ardent fan of ephemeral, go check it out. 642 00:33:02,100 --> 00:33:05,170 Speaker 1: Do not hesitate. So we'll be back very soon with 643 00:33:05,390 --> 00:33:09,750 Speaker 1: a new, ridiculous, and hopefully a bit less salacious episode. 644 00:33:09,770 --> 00:33:12,630 Speaker 3: I was into it, man. I was perfectly comfortable. Except 645 00:33:12,670 --> 00:33:13,910 Speaker 3: when you said the thing about the old man and 646 00:33:13,930 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 3: the garlic bread. That really threw me. 647 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,700 Speaker 1: That got to me. Yeah. That's going to stay with me. 648 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,780 Speaker 3: It really is. It's an image. That's for sure. 649 00:33:24,180 --> 00:33:26,140 Speaker 1: You and I have read the full thing. Did you 650 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:27,620 Speaker 1: read the rest of it? No, dude. 651 00:33:27,860 --> 00:33:28,380 Speaker 3: I stopped there. 652 00:33:28,860 --> 00:33:30,260 Speaker 2: But if you want to share any of this stuff 653 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:32,870 Speaker 2: with us, Kama Sutra, Any of the poetry, any of 654 00:33:32,910 --> 00:33:35,410 Speaker 2: this kind of, you know, whatever your sexual journey has been. 655 00:33:35,590 --> 00:33:37,110 Speaker 3: Maybe that's too much. We don't need all that. 656 00:33:37,310 --> 00:33:39,250 Speaker 2: But you can do it either by joining us on 657 00:33:39,290 --> 00:33:42,070 Speaker 2: our Facebook group, which is called Ridiculous Historians, where we 658 00:33:42,110 --> 00:33:45,490 Speaker 2: have a really cool community of friends, folks that like 659 00:33:45,510 --> 00:33:48,290 Speaker 2: the show, that are talking to each other, sharing memes, 660 00:33:48,590 --> 00:33:50,450 Speaker 2: discussing the episodes, all of that. All you have to 661 00:33:50,470 --> 00:33:52,570 Speaker 2: do is say either me and Ben's name, kind of 662 00:33:52,630 --> 00:33:54,690 Speaker 2: genie style, to gain entry. 663 00:33:55,260 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: Or honestly say something that gives either of us a chuckle. 664 00:33:58,980 --> 00:33:59,420 Speaker 3: Also true. 665 00:33:59,500 --> 00:34:01,690 Speaker 1: It's a good pun. I'm a sucker for those. You 666 00:34:01,710 --> 00:34:04,320 Speaker 1: can also find us on Twitter. You can find us 667 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:11,700 Speaker 1: on Instagram, both as a show and as our real-life personas. Recently, 668 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,839 Speaker 1: I went to the Comic Strip Museum in Belgium and 669 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:19,430 Speaker 1: was very surprised by the deeply racist roots of that. 670 00:34:20,070 --> 00:34:22,230 Speaker 1: You can see some of those adventures on my Instagram, 671 00:34:22,390 --> 00:34:23,709 Speaker 1: where I am at Ben Bolin. 672 00:34:24,030 --> 00:34:26,029 Speaker 3: And I am at HowNowNoelBrown. 673 00:34:26,989 --> 00:34:27,989 Speaker 2: If you don't want to do any of that stuff, 674 00:34:28,010 --> 00:34:31,790 Speaker 2: just shoot us an email where we are ridiculous at iheartradio.com. 675 00:34:31,950 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 3: See you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, 676 00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 3: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 677 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:41,820 Speaker 3: to your favorite shows.