1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noah. They called 6 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer 7 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: Paul Mission controlled decades. Most importantly, you are you, You 8 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,880 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want 9 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: you to know. This is our listener male segment for 10 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: the week. As the set a bite say, we have 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,240 Speaker 1: such wonders to show you, as Willie walks to say, 12 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: we're doing the we're you know, come with us to 13 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: a land of pure imagination. But these are pure facts. 14 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: We will be uh exploring some things that may not 15 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: be suitable for all listeners in today's episodes. Just a 16 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: heads up on that. Today we're going to hear from Jen, 17 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:17,960 Speaker 1: Lori and Anton, maybe not in that order. Where where 18 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: do you think we should start? Guys, We've got a 19 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: decades deep cover up, We've got a a spooky story. Uh, 20 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: we've got we've got a weird another weird possible corruption case. 21 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: Um that maybe on the minds of many Americans today. 22 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: We can start wherever. I was kind of hoping to 23 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: hold off on the spooky story as a palate cleanser 24 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: between the two. If that's okay, should we dive headlong 25 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: into pedophiles A weird way of putting it, I guess 26 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: it is. I'm sorry. Let's just rip the band aid off. Guys, 27 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: We've got another pedophile story. For a systematic uh pedophile story. 28 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 1: UM from out of Germany. UM. A listener by the 29 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: name of Anton sent us this. I know you guys 30 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: have tread carefully when covering news like this. I looked 31 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:09,679 Speaker 1: into this a few months ago, and you can find 32 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: quite a few reputable news outlets covering this bizarre and 33 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,840 Speaker 1: wildly unethical story, although it has had nowhere near as 34 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: much exposure as it deserves. Sorry to bring this to 35 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: your attention. Thanks Anton. We accept your apology, but I 36 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: would love to get your take. And he sends us 37 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: a link to an article with the headline Berlin authorities 38 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: placed children with pedophiles for thirty years. Take a second 39 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: to breathe that one in placed children with pedophiles for 40 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: thirty years. Now you might be asking yourself, was this 41 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,200 Speaker 1: an oversight. They just weren't aware of their records, their 42 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: sex offender record, and they accidentally placed children with pedophiles 43 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,799 Speaker 1: for thirty years. No, it was in fact a program 44 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:58,079 Speaker 1: called the Kindler Project in West Berlin where the government 45 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: routinely placed homeless child dred with pedophile men um because 46 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 1: of of a of a concept that was spearheaded by 47 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: this one individual that posited that pedophile men would make 48 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: ideal foster parents. A study found that this practice went 49 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: on for many decades. Uh. So this all goes back 50 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: to a gentleman by the name of Helmut Kenler, who 51 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies conducted psychological experiments. He was a 52 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: psychology professor. He put forth this idea that homeless children 53 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: ought to be placed with pedophile men because they would 54 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 1: make for a particularly loving foster parents. And then an 55 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: investigation by the University of Hildasheim found that authorities in 56 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: Berlin not only looked the other way, but actually condoned 57 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: this practice for around thirty years. Uh the idea of 58 00:03:56,400 --> 00:04:03,160 Speaker 1: sexual contact between foster parents and shoulder was essentially approved, 59 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: was essentially thought of as not that big a deal, 60 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: possibly even like a positive thing, like some sort of 61 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: form of nurturing, Berlin's child welfare offices UH and governing Senate. 62 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: According to this article in DW and in multiple corroborating articles, 63 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: and again that research from Hildasheim University, UH, they turned 64 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: a blind eye or even actually approved of these placements. 65 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: Now um, actually only a few years ago two of 66 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: the victims of this program have come forward to tell 67 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 1: their story. UH. And then the researchers are beginning to 68 00:04:38,120 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: dig back through their their archives to you know, fill 69 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: in the gaps and conduct new interviews. What they found 70 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 1: was a quote network across educational institutes, UH, the state 71 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: Youth Welfare office and the Berlin Senate in which pedophilia 72 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 1: was accepted, supported and even defended us. And they're going 73 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 1: gonna be a lot of there. They're going to be 74 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: people in the crowd who I want to know a 75 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: specific age. So I believe these a lot of these 76 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: were disadvantaged youths anywhere from thirteen to fifteen years exactly. 77 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: Just some some have been forced into sex trafficking UM 78 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: as a means of survival. UH. This has been reported Anton. 79 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: You might find this interesting. Irish Times the Degree piece 80 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: on this back in twenty sixteen. It's weird though, because 81 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: this was not something I think most many people in 82 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,480 Speaker 1: outside Western Europe are are aware of. And you have 83 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:41,039 Speaker 1: to wonder, is this like you know how Unit thirty 84 00:05:41,080 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: one in the Pacific theater of World War two? Uh? 85 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: You know how that was the research data they gathered 86 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: there was useless. They were just torturing people and calling 87 00:05:52,320 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: it research. So you have to wonder whether Helmett Kindler 88 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: believed in these theories or whether it was some sort 89 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: of um a rationalization for turning these very vulnerable children 90 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: over to as you said, noll um noon, child abusers 91 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 1: at least one who had a criminal record for this, 92 00:06:15,400 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: And I think it do we know the extent of 93 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: the program, Do we know how many children were talking 94 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 1: about over this multidecade span? You know, It's something that 95 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,239 Speaker 1: I think would actually be worth a deeper dive because 96 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 1: I really only read the handful of articles that I 97 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: you know that we're cross referenced in this d W article. Um, 98 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: but it almost has the appearance of like to what 99 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: to what I think you were kind of getting appen 100 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: is it almost feels like so many of the foster 101 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: fathers were high profile academics from you know, high, highly 102 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: respected institutions like the Max Planck Institute or Berlin's Free 103 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,559 Speaker 1: University h and also the Odenwald School in Hessa, West 104 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: Germany that was actually in and of itself at the 105 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: center of a massive pedophilia scandal in the not too 106 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: distant past. UM. So yeah, I mean like it's true, 107 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: this is exactly. This reminds me to a degree. Uh, 108 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 1: it's not exactly the same of the piece that you 109 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: covered on a recent either Strange News to listen to 110 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: male episode about OXFAM and some of their work in 111 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: Haiti essentially recruiting you know, people in absolute need as 112 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: you know, sex sex workers. UM, this I would I 113 00:07:31,840 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: would need to see more research in this and then 114 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 1: and dig deeper into you know, the study that was 115 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 1: done by the university. UM. But because of the high 116 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: profile academics, it almost seems like kind of like a 117 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: weird kind of pedophile ring for the elite at least, 118 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 1: it has that that feel. I'm not making accusations here, 119 00:07:51,200 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: I'm just saying, you know, it has sort of like 120 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,239 Speaker 1: an organizational quality to it that makes me think perhaps 121 00:07:57,280 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: these were being vetted, you know, with support from what 122 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: it seems now the big questions. At first, off, Kendler 123 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: cannot be asked about this anton he passed away in 124 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: two thousand eight. Uh, you know, being the subject of controversy, 125 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: but not the subject of criminal investigation as far as 126 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: we know. We also don't know, at least the official 127 00:08:20,800 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: word from the investigators and the later studies is that 128 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: we don't know to what extent. Uh, the German government 129 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 1: turned a blind eye to this or tacitly agreed. We 130 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:35,440 Speaker 1: don't know to what extent they were aware, you know, 131 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: at least the authorities, people in supervisory positions. But it 132 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: definitely happened. It's not a conspiracy theory. It was some 133 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:47,560 Speaker 1: sort of conspiracy. I am immensely fortunate that I was not. 134 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: I wasn't familiar with Helmet Kendler's work before this story broke, 135 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:55,719 Speaker 1: because this story did a couple of This story kind 136 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 1: of broke and then rebroke keeping up with the ongoing investigation. Um, 137 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: just you know, I think I speak for our whole 138 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 1: crew when we say our hearts go out to the 139 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: survivors of this horrific practice, many of whom are still alive. 140 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: You know, the seventies weren't too long ago. So yeah, 141 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: you'll have to forgive me over your I'm the disgust. 142 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: I think that we're all feeling. I'm just feeling it 143 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: very strongly right now. Um at this kind of the 144 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: condoning of this from from a highly educated person that 145 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: how do they describe him in a leading position, This guy, 146 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: Helmett Kendler, was in a leading position at Berlin Center 147 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: for Educational Research at the time in the seventies. Um 148 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 1: that this person would then put people, you know, with folks. 149 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: And again we're talking about thousands of kids, because I 150 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 1: haven't seen a lot of the numbers, but I did 151 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 1: see in the Irish Times article that around nineteen seventy 152 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: or in the seventies when this was occurring, there were 153 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 1: thousands of children who were who were placed throughout this program. 154 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: And they're talking about people that they were placed with, 155 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: so several it says here were high profile academics, high 156 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: ranking members of the Max Plank Institute, Berlin's free university 157 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: in this place called the Odenwald School, which is a 158 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: whole story of its own. This also occurs in the 159 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: context of a lot of these predators were using the 160 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 1: sexual revolution as kind of a cover for their own rationalizations. 161 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: And the public discourse about this specific genre of abuse 162 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: was held in a disturbingly transparent way, with people actively 163 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: lobbying for things like the decriminalization of adults and children. 164 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: And you know, of course the rationalization was that this 165 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:06,480 Speaker 1: would be somehow consensual. But as we have proven in 166 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:12,359 Speaker 1: previous episodes and as science has borne out, uh, informed 167 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: consent from a child is impossible, you know what I mean? 168 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: Like this, these people we're lying and they knew they 169 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:27,479 Speaker 1: were lying. Um at this point, from what I understand, 170 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: that study in June I got released. No, I believe 171 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: that they're they're going to at least all for financial 172 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: compensation to the survivors. Is that correct? Yes, they are 173 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: looking to pay some I guess damages, you know, for 174 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: for lack of I guess that's the right term, but 175 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: also just to kind of get to the bottom of it. 176 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: And then the government is now kind of on board. Uh, 177 00:11:50,280 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: there's no more turning a blind eye, and they're they're like, 178 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: you know, wanting to Yeah, this is actually like I mean, 179 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: not only is this human rights you know, violation and 180 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 1: absolute you know, bung all, it's it's really a horrible 181 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 1: pr look you know that like oh, the government. Is 182 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 1: that las fair that they can done pedophilia. I think 183 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: any of us would agree that that is a bridge 184 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: too far. Yeah, this one, this one just makes me 185 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 1: angry in the same way that the uh Ox fam 186 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: story made us all angry, because it's again, you know, proposed, 187 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: this situation where you're supposed to be helping these underprivileged 188 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: children who need support and they're literally being thrown to 189 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 1: the wolves. And unfortunately, well, every every group like this, 190 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: every every crime ring of this sort, has its own 191 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: distinct characteristics. They are unfortunately not unique. Uh it is. 192 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: We've talked about this before. They can't remember whether on 193 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: or off the air. But we do take pains to 194 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: avoid being exploitative or sensationalistic or alarmist about this stuff 195 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: because it does not help the survivors of of these 196 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: a born acts, you know. With that being said, if 197 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: you have experienced this network, or if you live in 198 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,040 Speaker 1: Germany and can give us some insight on this, we 199 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: we would love to hear from you, or if you 200 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: have experienced a network like this in some other part 201 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: of the world. But thank goodness, there are ethical and 202 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: conscientious investigators on the case in Germany, and you have 203 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: to say, Old, Uh, and Anton, you know about you guys, 204 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: But you know, I'm just walking through just just the 205 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: bar napkin math here. I guess. I guess the odds 206 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 1: are kind of against a lot of them being alive 207 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: right now, because we said the original guy passed Wayne 208 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,719 Speaker 1: oh eight. So because these people would have been adults, right, 209 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: they're highly placed academics, they would have been adults in 210 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: the seventies, sixties and so on. Yeah, it's true. And 211 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: you know, I think this is absolutely important to bring 212 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: up now so people can start doing their own research. 213 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: But I would love to to dig in love as 214 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: a strong word here, but the research being conducted ongoingly 215 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: um by the University of Hilda shim um to see 216 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,959 Speaker 1: you know what they found and uh, and maybe a 217 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: little bit more detail around the actual predators in this 218 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: story here here, uh, and thank you for bringing this 219 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: to our attention. Uh, gentlemen, I propose that we pause 220 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: for word from our sponsor and move to another story. 221 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: Holding true you know to your point, no, Old, that 222 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: this does deserve a deeper dive in the future. What 223 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,760 Speaker 1: do you guys say, Yeah, I'm gonna do a third 224 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: eye squeegee and then we'll be We'll be right back 225 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: for a very different kind of story. Wait, okay, took 226 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: a break, the little reset, uh, and now how we 227 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: are back with something that is also corrupt and weird, 228 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: but not the same kind of the corrupt and weird. 229 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: And it is a letter from Jen, Jen b you 230 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: write to us and you say, is it possible that 231 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: Parlor is actually just a long conn intended to divide 232 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: and weaken us? Rebecca Mercer is financially tied to both 233 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: companies UH Cambridge Analytica and Parlor, and has backed multiple 234 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: political candidates. Ted Cruz says Jen was an early Parlor 235 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: adopter and a benefactor of Mercer as well. The platform 236 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: is pretty crappy, terrible security, and in general just seems 237 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: in general okay, sorry, Jen, I just think there was 238 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: an opportunity for upon there, but in general, uh seems 239 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: slapped together, maybe not planned to exist in the long term. 240 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 1: This is interesting, soap, Jen. First, we've got to catch 241 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: up everybody. Everybody else. Parlor. I'm sure if you've listened 242 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: to show you you are familiar with it. It is 243 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: a is class Slash was what's called an alt tech 244 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:17,240 Speaker 1: microblogging social networking service. Or app and here in the US, 245 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: it's known for having a large a large user base 246 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: of people who would be described sometimes as very conservative 247 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: or further on the spectrum to far right wing, like 248 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: to the level of supremacist, anti Semites and so on. 249 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: There are, of course people on Parlor who were on 250 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 1: Parlor who were not part of that. But you guys, 251 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: remember what happened with Parlor recently, around the time Twitter 252 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: and various other large tech companies took then President Donald 253 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: Trump's uh took his handles and his accounts offline. Parlor 254 00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 1: also found itself in a fix. This Uh, this service, 255 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: this social networking service, got its leash pulled hard by 256 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: Amazon Web services. Folks. You'll remember when we talked about 257 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: Amazon in the past. Uh. They make some money selling 258 00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: people's stuff, but they make a lot of money running 259 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: web services for other companies and corporations. So Parlor was 260 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: going to take Amazon to court for this, uh to say, 261 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:30,479 Speaker 1: you know, you don't have the right to deny us 262 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 1: our service. UH. And it looked like Parlor was set 263 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 1: to uh was set to disappear. Two go gentle into 264 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 1: that good night, as Dylan Thomas would say, But I 265 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you guys before we go further 266 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: with this story, were any of us on Parlor? Did 267 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: anybody make an account to check it out? Anything like that? 268 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: I had not touching, thank you, thank you. Oh god, 269 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 1: I don't have. But I don't have any of the 270 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: social on on my personal phone or anything, so I 271 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: wouldn't never it. You're a desktop social guy, right, not really? 272 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 1: All right, we'll play these we'll play these reindeer games. 273 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: I myself did not have a hand in Parlor either. 274 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: There security seemed notably lacks. You know, I think we 275 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: talked in an earlier Listener Mail or Strange News segment 276 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: about becoming a verified citizen and having to share your 277 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 1: I D and stuff like that. Not only was it lacks, 278 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 1: like I mean, you know, in the same way that 279 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: A w S pulled the plug, and also the app 280 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: stores pulled the plugs, so did their security platform. You know, 281 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: they basically said, yeah, no, we don't want to be 282 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,840 Speaker 1: associated with you anymore. That's right, that's right. Uh. And 283 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: it looks that it looks as though that you're onto 284 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: something Jess with Rebecca Mercer in particular. Uh. Rebecca Mercer 285 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 1: is a co founder of Parlor and also was a 286 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: co founder of Cambridge Analytica. So so this person in 287 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: specific does have approvable hand in both of these. But 288 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,199 Speaker 1: also this person in specific is a very wealthy person. 289 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: Very wealthy people do stuff like this all the time. 290 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: So how anomalous is it? How involved is mercer in 291 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 1: the day to day or is this just you know, 292 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: like a thing in the portfolio, you know what I mean? Like, 293 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: how how hands on hands off is this person? Yeah, exactly, 294 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: that is a good question. I'm just reading a lot 295 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,199 Speaker 1: about this for the first time, Ben and some of 296 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: the latest reporting out of from Al Jazeera. Um it is. 297 00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: It is very interesting too because they you know, there 298 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,679 Speaker 1: are many people who work for Parlor. W were employees 299 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: creating this app, making sure it functions all the time. 300 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: It is interesting to note that, at least according to 301 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:11,640 Speaker 1: the latest reporting as we're recording this, the employees did 302 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,480 Speaker 1: not quit the There's an internal person they're commenting saying 303 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: the employees of Parlor did not quit when everything seemed 304 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: to be going to crap um and they were committed 305 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: to continuing their service in some way once they could 306 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,639 Speaker 1: get it back up. There's the plots with Jen because 307 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: just like that old Mark Twain quote. The reports of 308 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: Parlor's death maybe greatly exaggerated. You see, just recently, just 309 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: like yesterday, I believe Parlor partially reappeared with help from 310 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: not a US based technology firm, but are Russian based 311 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: technology firm. Now, I look, folks, I know this week 312 00:20:56,080 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: I'm setting a terrible precedent by continually talking about various 313 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: aspects of Russia. But this this was interesting because Parlor 314 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: was on so many people's minds and it became it 315 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: became one of those public conversations right about the responsibility 316 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: of a tech company or a platform versus the rights 317 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: of a user, whether they're a verified citizen or what 318 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: have you. The Russian company in question is called d 319 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: d os Guard UH. They're distributed denial of service protection 320 00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,879 Speaker 1: company and like their big competitor will probably be something 321 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,199 Speaker 1: like cloud Flare. So I don't know this. This is 322 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: the thing. If you believe that there is something suspicious 323 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: about Mercer's connection to Cambridge Analytica, which we did a 324 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 1: show on UH, and to Parlor, then I imagine this 325 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: is another feather in the conspiracy cap, isn't it. I mean, 326 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: does it seem suspicious to you? Guys. Or is this 327 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 1: just like capitalism at play suspicious? Well? Yeah, because with 328 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,920 Speaker 1: Cambridge Analytic of the Big Deal, there was gathering up 329 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: of information right from other social media networks, specifically Facebook, Right, 330 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 1: But maybe I'm misremembering that. I think that's correct. Um. 331 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: And then with just having having this group for this person, 332 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,760 Speaker 1: this individual connected back to another social media network that 333 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: appeared to be growing in popularity. Yeah, I think it 334 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 1: makes complete sense. Maybe I'm just not maybe I'm not 335 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: seeing the I'm not seeing the bad part here unless 336 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 1: we're talking about just gathering up more private information from users. 337 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,400 Speaker 1: Do you think that's happening here? Well, I mean, every 338 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: every social media app does gather and scrape whatever they can. 339 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: That's why you don't have those apps on your phone, right. 340 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: But but I would say, yes, every everybody does this. 341 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: The concern for people at this point would be who 342 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: controls that gathered data? Is it a friendly government, is 343 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: an antagonistic government? Is it you know, the big tech 344 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:10,160 Speaker 1: companies that already would have this data. I think that's 345 00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 1: what people are worried about, and I think that's a 346 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 1: that's a valid worry to have, But it's I mean, 347 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 1: the big difference here. Let's be honest. The big difference 348 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: is mainly that Rush is not part of five Eyes. 349 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: It's like the main difference in terms of guess what 350 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 1: this is unrelated kind of I don't know if you 351 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: guys saw this when Parlor was initially shut down and 352 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 1: taken off the app store. Um, there aren't as many now, 353 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 1: but then there were quite a few on eBay unlocked 354 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: iPhones with Parlor app pre installed for like going for 355 00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: quite a bit of money, And right now I'm only 356 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,719 Speaker 1: seeing one, but it's a thousand dollars for an iPhone 357 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: eleven and its specificity says with Parlor app sixty four 358 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: gigs black unlocked. Uh, if the services down, I think 359 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: it's Yeah, it's the website. The website was reachable again 360 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 1: as of the I want to say January and the CEO. 361 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: All that would happen if you went to the website 362 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: was there would be a message from the CEO saying 363 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: that he was working to restore functionality. So if it's 364 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: if that site is restored and if their infrastructure comes back, 365 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 1: then users of Parlor will be able to see and 366 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:31,040 Speaker 1: post comments on the site. The app. However, as part 367 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,960 Speaker 1: of the reason you know all that that mentioned of 368 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 1: eBay is so interesting because the app is banned from 369 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:42,480 Speaker 1: Apple and Google stores. Uh, there's probably going to continue 370 00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 1: to be controversy about this. But yeah, if if Mercer is, 371 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: if Mercer is involved and his hands on, is her 372 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: team collecting this data? And to your point, Matt, where 373 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: they sending it? What are they doing? Are they giving 374 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: it to like campaigns in the future and see that 375 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 1: being a good business model for sure? I can see 376 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 1: that happening. Um, yeah, but I don't know. Man, Oh, 377 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: I'm I'm reading here. Been something about changing because you're 378 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: aws was the big issue, right, So they're looking to 379 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: another company. You said that was the d d o 380 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: S company. D d OS is security. I think d 381 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: d us is they're doing security. But then the domain 382 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: is actually it looks like it may be going to 383 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: another service called epic. Is that is that what I'm 384 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,199 Speaker 1: actually reading here? Um, there's one called e p I 385 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: K that's where their domain is registered. Now I'm just 386 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,480 Speaker 1: trying to follow some of these threads that are being 387 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: reported because new info is coming out pretty quickly, given 388 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 1: that just a few days ago is when it essentially 389 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: kind of came back. So there's another aspect here, will 390 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: this benefit this organization? Well? Does benefit this company, because 391 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,679 Speaker 1: if there are a lot of people who see themselves 392 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 1: as um perhaps more on the pro America side or 393 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: the pro patriotic side, however it would be phrased more 394 00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 1: conservative side, perhaps, are those users going to return? Are 395 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: they going to feel comfortable with this new Russian association 396 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:19,119 Speaker 1: with the app? I mean it's a good question. I 397 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 1: don't know what the answer is, and I'm sure not 398 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 1: everybody will answer the same way. Uh, but then what 399 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: would what would Mercer do with that information? We want 400 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: to hear from you? This story is still developing. I 401 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 1: think they're gonna be plot twist a plenty as it continues. Obviously, 402 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: the three of us are not super into any non 403 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: governmental thing that requires your social Security number or photo 404 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: of your driver's license. I mean, what's the next blood 405 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: type list of fears uh known known uh frequencies of 406 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 1: defication or something like med medical technology gets involved with 407 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: social media and let's you know, your bpms are just 408 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: updating automatically. That's the world we're headed toward. Um, this 409 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,000 Speaker 1: is a small piece of well. Yeah, also think the 410 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,640 Speaker 1: extra funny part about that is, you know, we've talked 411 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: about there's a certain paranoia and like Internet kind of 412 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 1: fear mongering, kind of UM culture wrapped up in things 413 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: like Q and on and some of these super far 414 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: right conspiracy movements. And yet these folks are just giving 415 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: like their geo tag data to this app and utter 416 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: trust and like you know, completely having it leaked because 417 00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: of lack of security measures. So, I mean, all of 418 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:47,160 Speaker 1: these folks that are essentially outed and docks themselves by 419 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 1: taking selfies and live streams. Now we're starting to see 420 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 1: all those videos trickle out and some of the really 421 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: you know, from the heart of the capital um you know, 422 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: insurrection situation are quite troubling, like actual beatings, you know, 423 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: being being meted out to the security guards and things 424 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: like that are rather capital police. So I just think 425 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: it's fascinating. There's so much distrust and this desire for 426 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 1: anonymity UM in these kind of scenes. And yeah, this 427 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 1: is like the exact opposite where they're literally uploading their 428 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: driver's license, agreed, you know, And that's part of that's 429 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 1: part of what social media in general does. We talked 430 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: about in the past, like it drives you. The aim 431 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: is to drive you to ultimately erode your own boundaries 432 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 1: of privacy to whatever degree that company feels viable and 433 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: profitable for them. UM, which doesn't necessarily make them bad. 434 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: It just means that we should all be aware of 435 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: what their motive is. Uh so, what do you guys 436 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 1: want to take it in super conspiratorial? Then sure, let's go. Yeah, 437 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: let's let's get super conspiratorial. So let's say you do 438 00:28:54,560 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: have another state that wants to activate and a populus, 439 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: a small group of the populace that does happen to 440 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: be armed and is adamant in their viewpoint, and let's 441 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,360 Speaker 1: make it. Let's make it Bhutan. Let's see Bouton wants 442 00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: to do Sure, Bhutan wants to do it. And they 443 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: happen to have a web hosting service, and they happen 444 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: to have access to bots and access to other ways 445 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 1: of infiltrating a social network that they happen to host. Um, 446 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:35,400 Speaker 1: you could ostensibly push the needle enough generate further resentment 447 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: towards whatever power that that bees whenever, whatever power that exists, 448 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: and fullman enough to where you could park perhaps a 449 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 1: revolution that's taking it really far. Isn't that is I mean, 450 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: isn't that what the Arab Spring was. But like that 451 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: was viewed positively because it was an insurrection against you know, 452 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: oppressive forces Olivia, there was a lot of social media 453 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: support for intervention. Uh, and then later it turned out 454 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: that the entire reason for intervention in Libya was to 455 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: for France to be able to control the currency or 456 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,000 Speaker 1: retain control of the currency. UM. I don't know, I know, 457 00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: I'm I'm not trying to nippick at all. I just 458 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: think it's interesting because it's almost like, you know, the 459 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: folks that are in this into this whole parlor thing, 460 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 1: or into this whole movement, they would argue that their 461 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: freedom fighters and they're rebelling against an oppressive regime. And 462 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, oftentimes that argument holds water here. I would 463 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: I would argue it definitely, definitely doesn't. But you know 464 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: we always say one person's freedom fighters, another person's terrorists. UM. 465 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: So that you know the medium, does the medium play 466 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: a part in that, you know, in that role. Yeah, 467 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: that's a great question. I love your point about the 468 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: Arab springman, and I think that should be brought up 469 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: in the conversations more often. But if it's if it's 470 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 1: super conspiratorial Okay, Matt so Boutad has moved away from 471 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: gross national happiness and now they're into Now they're into 472 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 1: um asymmetrical warfare. I uh. And they do it through 473 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: social media. I mean there's a question then, how much 474 00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: influence do they actually have and how much do they 475 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: need to have? Right if you're that deep in the 476 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: infiltration of the app itself, of the hosting of all 477 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: of these things, I think there are numerous ways that 478 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: you could gain the system enough to get a message out. 479 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean the message would be effective, It doesn't 480 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: mean everybody would bite on that bait, but it does 481 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: mean that it the potential could be there, And like 482 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: you said, it could be. That potential could exist across 483 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: any social media network, across any web hosting service, and 484 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean it's true. That's why we're calling this 485 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: section very super conspiratorial. Well also, also Jed, what I 486 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: what I love about this question is I think they're 487 00:31:56,160 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 1: I think they're absolutely is a plausible connection between Cambridge 488 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: Analytica and Parlor. Uh. Without having a hard proof of 489 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: this other than they share the same co founder, I 490 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: think it is. It is possible, if not plausible, that 491 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 1: you would use the information cleaned from one company to 492 00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: help your other companies succeed if possible, because that's what 493 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: business owners do. You know what I mean. That's like, 494 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: that's the consolidation of various industries, like we see with 495 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: with trust, with the formation of trust. Like Henry Ford 496 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: didn't want to just own a car factory. He wanted 497 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: to own the minds. He wanted to build his own 498 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: rubber plantation. He did, by the way, called it Ford 499 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: Landia in Brazil is a huge failure because it did 500 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: work for a bunch of reasons. That's either here nor there. 501 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: But we do we do think this bears keeping an 502 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: eye on. Want to hear your opinion about Cambridge Analytic 503 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: a possible connection to other things. Go on a weird 504 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,160 Speaker 1: Bob Ross conspiracy journey with us and string some string 505 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: some points together. We'd love to hear from you. With 506 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,640 Speaker 1: that being said, with all that stuff we've said about 507 00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: social media, if you were watching this on YouTube dot com, 508 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,960 Speaker 1: slash conspiracy stuff, smash that like button, continue the conversation. 509 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,400 Speaker 1: Oh here's where it gets crazy on Facebook. We're gonna 510 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: pause for a moment. It will be time to do 511 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: that and we'll be back with more listener mail. All right, 512 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 1: and we're back. So everybody, we're gonna take this party 513 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: to a whole different level. Are you ready for my 514 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: favorite listener correspondence that we've had in quite a long time? 515 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,800 Speaker 1: Are you ready for it? I wasn't ready for it. 516 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: I was not ready when I Maybe I'm not. Maybe 517 00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: I'm not. I know this one too, but I I 518 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: read it. I'm still not sure whether I'm ready for it. 519 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: But let's let's give it a go. I'm just gonna 520 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: read this and we'll talk about it afterwards. This comes 521 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,479 Speaker 1: from LORI. Good evening, I've waited a process. What happened 522 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,880 Speaker 1: before emailing you guys? The week after Halloween, that's my 523 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: favorite holiday. I woke up around five am from a 524 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 1: dream where my loved one and I were cuddling while 525 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: watching television. Note Lorie does not live with her significant other. 526 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 1: She is dreaming about being with her significant other, who 527 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:31,799 Speaker 1: is not at her house. Coming back in. I woke 528 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: up lying on my left side. That's important, alone in 529 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: my bed in my home, and then my eyes shot 530 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: open and I tried to stay as still as possible 531 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,799 Speaker 1: because as I lay there staring at the wall, I 532 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:50,000 Speaker 1: felt my toes curled around his toes. I still felt toes, 533 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 1: but I was alone in my bed. I was scared 534 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,959 Speaker 1: to roll over. I was afraid to move it all. 535 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: Then the toes were gone. I kept telling myself it 536 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 1: was just a fading dream. And then I'm not going 537 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 1: to see anything. When I roll over, and I roll over, 538 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,880 Speaker 1: this lightning white figure in the shape of a very tall, 539 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: thin man sat up. We were face to face. I 540 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,520 Speaker 1: could see through him. I kept reminding myself that I 541 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: was awake. Then the man spoke loud, with a deep voice, 542 00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,319 Speaker 1: and very very fast, so fast that I have no 543 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 1: idea what he was saying. I said no, no, no, 544 00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,440 Speaker 1: and he disappeared. I stay there for a bit. Then 545 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:35,720 Speaker 1: I had to go get my oldest son to sleep 546 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:39,240 Speaker 1: with me. Okay, we're gonna pause here for a moment. 547 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: First of all, what an experience, right this feels It 548 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: feels similar to what we just discussed with our d 549 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: M t entities that we've seen that humans have been experiencing, 550 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: where there's this energy being that somehow manifests. Um. It 551 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: reminds me of sleep paralysis, especially laying on the side. 552 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: They're experiencing something like that. But there are reasons that 553 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,080 Speaker 1: we're going to get into why it doesn't feel like 554 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: either of those things, why it isn't either of those things. 555 00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:19,919 Speaker 1: Do you guys have any reactions to that first section there? Yeah, man, 556 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: I mean I think you. I think you nail some 557 00:36:22,640 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: of the common aspects here, like the idea that the 558 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: experience could be sleep paralysis, which which can be terrifying. Right, 559 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,480 Speaker 1: It's one of the episodes that we we've had the 560 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,359 Speaker 1: most response to over the years. It makes me wonder too, 561 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 1: about the the sense that we don't talk about often enough, 562 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: propri reception, which is the sensation of where your body 563 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,560 Speaker 1: parts are in space, even if you are not looking 564 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:57,960 Speaker 1: at them directly. Like that that ties into um things 565 00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,080 Speaker 1: like the phantom hand experience that some people report when 566 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,800 Speaker 1: her phantom limb when they experienced the amputation. It also 567 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: ties into this this part of your story, Lauria. You 568 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: you feel these toes, but you know you're alone in 569 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: your bed, so you're feeling this sensation or something that 570 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,360 Speaker 1: is not part of your body. I don't I'm interested, 571 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: but we gotta we gotta keep going because I gotta 572 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: tell you, Laurie, I don't know how you went back 573 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:27,359 Speaker 1: to sleep. We we can keep going and we'll talk 574 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:29,560 Speaker 1: about that. I just want to say I talked to 575 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: Laurie for quite a while today before recording this, and 576 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: she says that she has experienced sleep paralysis since she 577 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: was a kid. She knows exactly what it feels like, 578 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 1: she knows what the experience is. And this was not that. 579 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: She said, she was not still asleep when it occurred. Uh. 580 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,000 Speaker 1: And she was able to roll physically roll over in 581 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: bed and then you know, was be able to sit 582 00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,879 Speaker 1: up and still was having having this visual emulation of 583 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,160 Speaker 1: this being that she she described. I asked her, you know, 584 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: a couple of times, described to me more what you're 585 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: looking at, and she said, he was just lightning like 586 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: he was white, as white as lightning, and I could 587 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: see through him, but he was as long as me, 588 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:17,279 Speaker 1: and you could tell it was in the shape of 589 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: a person. And I only say it was male because 590 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,839 Speaker 1: the voice I heard was so deep, really really interesting stuff. Yeah, 591 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:31,760 Speaker 1: And from what I understand based just on the letter here, Um, Laurie, 592 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,720 Speaker 1: you said, when the when this figure is speaking there, 593 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,080 Speaker 1: they're speaking in a deeper voice, but they're speaking very 594 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 1: very quickly. Is that correct? Uh? Matt, when you and 595 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,560 Speaker 1: Laurie spoke, were you able to get a sense of what, 596 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: if anything, this figure was attempting to communicate, or even 597 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: just snatches of phrases. She said she was unable to 598 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: tell even if he was speaking English. It was difficult 599 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 1: to tell that. She said, the utterances were so quick 600 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,120 Speaker 1: and deep that it was just she and she's she 601 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: was experiencing such fear, like such a reaction to it, 602 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: that she doesn't remember any of that. She doesn't recall 603 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 1: exactly what was being said. And it's fascinating to me 604 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,120 Speaker 1: that perhaps this person or this thing wasn't even speaking English. 605 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: But this is the point where I think we we 606 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: should continue down the letter, because there's more here, and 607 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:22,399 Speaker 1: Lori experienced more. She says, after this experience, she fell 608 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:28,279 Speaker 1: back to sleep immediately. Crazy well, because she said her son, 609 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 1: her oldest son, came to join her in bed. He's 610 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 1: a teenager. She probably felt safe with him. Um she 611 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,919 Speaker 1: was able to fall back asleep. However, the next day, 612 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: my son came home from school. He was pale and exhausted. 613 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: When I asked him what was wrong, he told me 614 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: that he couldn't go back to sleep after this whole 615 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,800 Speaker 1: thing had happened, and he joined her in bed because 616 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: he kept hearing a voice that sounded like his voice, 617 00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,600 Speaker 1: and it was mumbling against the far bedroom wall. Okay, 618 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: and Lourie says, he's correct. The man's voice was very 619 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: similar to my son's, but in a deeper register. And 620 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,920 Speaker 1: that is what Laurie confirmed to me, that both she 621 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 1: and her son experienced this weird thing where it sounded 622 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:18,280 Speaker 1: like an old version, an older version of her son speaking. 623 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 1: So that right there kind of blew my mind, and 624 00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,799 Speaker 1: it made me start thinking about the Terminator franchise, when 625 00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 1: there's time travel involved, and you know, there's the lightning 626 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,479 Speaker 1: orb essentially that transports someone back through time. Just made 627 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,040 Speaker 1: me think about a lightening being that somehow was her 628 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: son time traveling. Not saying that's what it is, but 629 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:41,920 Speaker 1: it made my mind real you know, I was thinking 630 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,000 Speaker 1: not just specifically of Terminator here, but I was thinking 631 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 1: of the the concept of non linear experiences with time. 632 00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: So let's let's not stop, let's keep going through this. 633 00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:58,960 Speaker 1: So Laurie says that this made her realize that there 634 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: are a lot of other things that she had previously 635 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: discounted that she and her family had experienced. She says 636 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: that they were like coincidences that she rationalized, Um, there's 637 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:12,879 Speaker 1: weird stuff. So on two different occasions, she said her 638 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: her children her child's bed. She's got two children, one 639 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,040 Speaker 1: is older, when is younger. Her younger child's bed was 640 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 1: pushed out from the wall towards the middle of the room. Um, 641 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,640 Speaker 1: it's a twin size bed, so not huge and heavy, 642 00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: but it's still hefty, especially for a three year old. 643 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: And she was just wondering why it happened. She figured 644 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 1: her older son probably went in there and moved the bed. 645 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: She spoke with both her sons. Neither of them had 646 00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: been in the room, neither of them had moved the bed. 647 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,040 Speaker 1: They just saw, okay, that's a little weird. They pushed 648 00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:47,320 Speaker 1: it back. But then it happened again, and she couldn't 649 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:51,759 Speaker 1: figure out what was going on. Her father was even involved, like, thinking, 650 00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: there's something weird going on there. Um. Then on several 651 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,000 Speaker 1: different nights, she's awoken to the sound of a man 652 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,680 Speaker 1: mumbling at the furthest wall, the furthest sidewall of her bedroom. 653 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: Also the sounds of someone physically rustling around in that 654 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:13,439 Speaker 1: area of the room. Um. She even experienced at one 655 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 1: point that same voice rushing towards her, So like a 656 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: voice beginning at at the far end of a room 657 00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:24,200 Speaker 1: and then moving towards her, just a disembodied voice moving 658 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:27,520 Speaker 1: towards her. Sweart of guy. That immediately makes my mind 659 00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,360 Speaker 1: go to a very popular horror movie sound design technique 660 00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 1: where the voice has reverb on it. That's that's flipped backwards, 661 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: so it kind of reverbs into the voice, and I 662 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 1: kind of picture that like as a rushing kind of 663 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 1: like you know, quality of like moving through space at you. 664 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,919 Speaker 1: I've certainly never experienced anything like that, but that that's 665 00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:50,799 Speaker 1: just immediately with my mind hones into sound localization. Yeah, 666 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,759 Speaker 1: it's another It's there's another thing that's important here for 667 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,479 Speaker 1: this detail, uh Lori, which is that if you can 668 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,720 Speaker 1: localize or sense the direction and location of a sound, 669 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,759 Speaker 1: then it means that you are hearing these things through 670 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:12,920 Speaker 1: both ears, which which is an important, um, an important 671 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: neurocognitive detail. Please con didn't met well because you know, 672 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,759 Speaker 1: sometimes people have said they've only heard something in one ear. 673 00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: It's a small detail, but an important one to consider. 674 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:24,840 Speaker 1: One of the things I love about Laurie when I 675 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,560 Speaker 1: spoke with her. She's very much attempting to rationalize everything. 676 00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:32,400 Speaker 1: So she's attempting to figure out what is the most 677 00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,919 Speaker 1: what's the common denominator here, what's the most rational thing. 678 00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 1: It was probably my neighbor's television that was too loud, 679 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 1: and I was just hearing it, and I was experiencing 680 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: that when I hear the mumbling. Um. There are a 681 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,640 Speaker 1: couple of times when her bed would move right around 682 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 1: five am, sometimes a little earlier, especially when her alarm 683 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:55,280 Speaker 1: wouldn't go off. She said her bed would be physically shaking, 684 00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: and she would wake up to the to the physical 685 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,440 Speaker 1: movement of her bed, rather than on a arm or 686 00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:02,279 Speaker 1: her son coming in to wake her up the way 687 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,239 Speaker 1: he would sometimes. Um. She's noticing a couple other things 688 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: where there are objects that are displaced around the house 689 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,959 Speaker 1: are knocked over. Uh. And there's even an instance where 690 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,279 Speaker 1: all of her lightbulbs went out on the same day, 691 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,879 Speaker 1: all the light bulbs in the place where she lives, um, 692 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,960 Speaker 1: which you know, that would be super unnerving if that occurred, 693 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,080 Speaker 1: or it could just be an electric you know, you 694 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,319 Speaker 1: could explain away with some kind of electrical surge that 695 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: caused all of the light bulbs to get too much 696 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 1: power to them too quickly and then bust them all. 697 00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:39,279 Speaker 1: A coincidence that doesn't happen often. Um, but this is 698 00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,319 Speaker 1: this is I think the last thing we're gonna read 699 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:44,920 Speaker 1: from this email, and we're just will consider it that 700 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,920 Speaker 1: this is how Laurie ended it. I felt this man's body. 701 00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,760 Speaker 1: I saw this man as bright as lightning. I heard 702 00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: this man. My son heard this man, and I will 703 00:44:55,200 --> 00:45:00,879 Speaker 1: never unsee, unfeel, or unhear him. This happened. Yeah, I mean, 704 00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 1: and what was your sense? I mean, obviously from from 705 00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,919 Speaker 1: the email, she really does strike a very analytical kind 706 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:11,080 Speaker 1: of tone, like she really comes off as someone who 707 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,320 Speaker 1: is describing a thing, not like a half remembered dream, 708 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,799 Speaker 1: but like a thing that happened to her. And like 709 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 1: you said, Matt, very much trying to sess out and 710 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: try to rationalize every little detail. Is that how she 711 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 1: was on the phone as well? Man, She was very 712 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,400 Speaker 1: much like that on the phone, And and it's something 713 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:30,920 Speaker 1: that is has disturbed her pretty heavily. Um, specifically because 714 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 1: it appears to be affecting her son as well, and 715 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,360 Speaker 1: they seem to have shared experiences, so it doesn't feel 716 00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 1: like just something that happened in her sleep and then 717 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,920 Speaker 1: went away, or something she experienced in a dream state 718 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,480 Speaker 1: or in a sleep paralysis state. The fact that her 719 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,520 Speaker 1: son that it bothered her son so much that he 720 00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 1: was just you know, it ruined his day essentially um 721 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,319 Speaker 1: hearing hearing the this voice. And the other thing here 722 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,719 Speaker 1: is that I didn't go easy on Laurie. I was 723 00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,960 Speaker 1: asking her, as you know, detailed questions about all of 724 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: this stuff, and she was responding, you know, not as 725 00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:10,680 Speaker 1: somebody who was just making something up. You know, I can't. 726 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,440 Speaker 1: I can't prove that to to you or to myself 727 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,560 Speaker 1: that she wasn't making anything up. But she knows, and 728 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: I've certainly felt that she wasn't. And you know there 729 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:22,520 Speaker 1: you know what asked her about the disappearing, because she 730 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:26,440 Speaker 1: said that this this, this thing, this being appeared in 731 00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 1: her bed. Then it just kind of disappeared when she 732 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,840 Speaker 1: said no, no, no, And she said that it was 733 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,440 Speaker 1: essentially half a second, couple of milliseconds of like a 734 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:39,479 Speaker 1: fade out and then just like nothing. And I would 735 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:41,800 Speaker 1: just say that I've experienced something like that before where 736 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:45,160 Speaker 1: I've woken up from a dream, I'm still half asleep, 737 00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 1: kind of got like my eyes half closed or something, 738 00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,480 Speaker 1: and my dream state is providing images. If you guys 739 00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:54,359 Speaker 1: have ever seen that kind of almost like images that 740 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,640 Speaker 1: are flowing downward or in a circular pattern, that you'll 741 00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,359 Speaker 1: still get the light essentially. Um, I've experienced something like that, 742 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,799 Speaker 1: but never in the shape of a person with a 743 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:09,360 Speaker 1: physical sensation with an audible voice. You might be surprised 744 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:11,680 Speaker 1: what you can do, because that is that is one 745 00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 1: of the side doors and the lucid dreaming. I mean, 746 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,960 Speaker 1: I know we use this, this phrase often gets overused, 747 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: but that really is a cognitive liminal state. If if 748 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,919 Speaker 1: you're ever in that state, by the way, folks, which 749 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:29,480 Speaker 1: everybody is, at some point, uh, give give yourself, give 750 00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: yourself some credit. Try to try to just imagine some 751 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:35,839 Speaker 1: cool scenarios. You're basically at that point you're in the 752 00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,400 Speaker 1: hollow deck where you can still steer to a degree. 753 00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:41,840 Speaker 1: But then once you're out like a light, it's not 754 00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:47,160 Speaker 1: you driving anymore. It's just subconscious or arguably you experiencing 755 00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:51,800 Speaker 1: a quantum. A quantum look into a universe just to 756 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:54,759 Speaker 1: the left of hours or to the right or another timeline, 757 00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,319 Speaker 1: you know. Speaking of that, I had I've been having 758 00:47:57,320 --> 00:47:59,719 Speaker 1: a lot of very strange dreams lately, um, and you 759 00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:02,000 Speaker 1: have to kind of like really capture them or speak 760 00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,160 Speaker 1: them out loud right when you wake up, or they're 761 00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:06,799 Speaker 1: very easily just kind of totally forgotten. But I had 762 00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,439 Speaker 1: one last night where it was the three of us 763 00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:11,839 Speaker 1: and we were like in a band, and we were 764 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:15,480 Speaker 1: playing the new Coachella festival, which was taking place inside 765 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,960 Speaker 1: a giant church, and we were all there for a 766 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,239 Speaker 1: sound check, and the Atlanta rapper Gucci Maine and his 767 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,080 Speaker 1: crew were there in sound checking, only they were all 768 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:26,759 Speaker 1: very British and not Southern at all. And you, the 769 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:28,640 Speaker 1: three of us sat down in the balcony of the 770 00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,719 Speaker 1: church waiting for our turn to sound check, and the 771 00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:33,520 Speaker 1: Gucci man and his crew came up to us and 772 00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:35,840 Speaker 1: told us that we were sitting in their seats, to 773 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,520 Speaker 1: which I made a big fuss and ended up getting 774 00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,480 Speaker 1: into a fist fight with Gucci Maine. And that's all 775 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:44,040 Speaker 1: I remember. But you guys were definitely there. Don't don't 776 00:48:44,120 --> 00:48:50,960 Speaker 1: fight Gucci Maine at Churchilla's Chella. Come on. But yeah, 777 00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,520 Speaker 1: that that is the moral of the story. I think that, 778 00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,239 Speaker 1: But no, I mean, look, I also, um, I don't 779 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,480 Speaker 1: know if you this is totally different. But if you 780 00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,080 Speaker 1: guys ever like had like a like a he's of 781 00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,319 Speaker 1: furniture in your room, or maybe like a coat rack 782 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,239 Speaker 1: or something, and in the right light or lack of light, 783 00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,400 Speaker 1: it really does look like a figure. And if you 784 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:08,920 Speaker 1: wake up from a dream and you see that at 785 00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:11,280 Speaker 1: the corner of your eye, you are, if for a moment, 786 00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,040 Speaker 1: convinced that that is an actual figure, that is an 787 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,719 Speaker 1: actual entity in your room. I'm not saying that's what 788 00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:18,520 Speaker 1: this is. I'm just saying I have a hat rack 789 00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,160 Speaker 1: on my my closet door that's just like all my 790 00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 1: baseball hats, and it's sort of in a V shape. 791 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:26,279 Speaker 1: And because it's a hat, and you picture a hat 792 00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:29,000 Speaker 1: is being representing a head, I sometimes wake up and 793 00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,839 Speaker 1: see that and spook the crap out of myself. Yeah, 794 00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:33,800 Speaker 1: I've got something kind of like that that's been occurring 795 00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:36,799 Speaker 1: lately with light coming in from the morning through a 796 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,759 Speaker 1: window and a tree that's obscuring a certain part where 797 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,480 Speaker 1: it does form the shape it's a bit human like, 798 00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,680 Speaker 1: and if I'm still asleep, I can see that. Yeah. 799 00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:48,520 Speaker 1: I mean are like you said, Ben, our brains can 800 00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:53,200 Speaker 1: do some really interesting things. As as that information is 801 00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,719 Speaker 1: being processed and we're kind of transferring over from one 802 00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:58,799 Speaker 1: mode to another. What what I would say and what 803 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:01,640 Speaker 1: I kind of want to leave us with on here 804 00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:07,040 Speaker 1: is that Laurie is she really wants to know what happened. 805 00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,799 Speaker 1: She has purchased equipment, audio and video equipment that she's 806 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,640 Speaker 1: set up in her room where this occurred. She's got 807 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,440 Speaker 1: she's got a motion activated night vision camera that is 808 00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:23,080 Speaker 1: currently full. The memory is full, so she is capturing 809 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,120 Speaker 1: it right now and she's going through it to see 810 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,960 Speaker 1: if anything shows up. So hopefully we will hear soon 811 00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,960 Speaker 1: back from Laurie if she's seen anything, or if we've 812 00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:34,560 Speaker 1: got some footage to look at, you have to send 813 00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,719 Speaker 1: it to us, Laury. Also, I want to say, just 814 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:41,480 Speaker 1: on a personal note, I love your writing style. I 815 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,719 Speaker 1: think it's clear and concise, and I think you're a 816 00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,560 Speaker 1: good storyteller. One of my favorite sentences that really surprised 817 00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:51,080 Speaker 1: me in your email, Laurie was when you said, my 818 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,840 Speaker 1: alone time has literally been stolen, and I love my 819 00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,680 Speaker 1: alone time. For some people that might seem like the 820 00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:01,200 Speaker 1: weird thing to worry about in this situation, but Lorie, 821 00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:03,719 Speaker 1: I get it, and I bet that we get it. 822 00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,319 Speaker 1: I bet we all get that, right. That's it. I 823 00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:08,920 Speaker 1: just want to say, I think you're I think you're 824 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:12,040 Speaker 1: a swell writer, Laurie. And when I was reading it, it 825 00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,880 Speaker 1: it almost had the cadence of like a creepy pasta story, 826 00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:18,880 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, like one of those very condensed, 827 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,600 Speaker 1: contained spooky stories. Because I was on the edge of 828 00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:23,319 Speaker 1: my seat reading it the whole way through. That's why 829 00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:24,840 Speaker 1: I had to call her and talk to her, because 830 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,719 Speaker 1: it did it. It felt unreal. And that's the first 831 00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,200 Speaker 1: thing that we talked about was this feels like something 832 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,560 Speaker 1: that's been written. And and she was just like, no, 833 00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:38,040 Speaker 1: I am. She was so adamant about it. In genuine 834 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:42,720 Speaker 1: she does. She does say that this happened very shortly 835 00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,719 Speaker 1: after beginning to listen to our show, so you know, 836 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:52,919 Speaker 1: hopefully our show isn't haunted. Uh. And and it wasn't me. 837 00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:56,120 Speaker 1: I can't speak from Arnold, but Louria, I could tell 838 00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:59,040 Speaker 1: you it was not me, at least as far as 839 00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:02,399 Speaker 1: I remember. But yes, thank you for writing in where 840 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,719 Speaker 1: you keep us updated other folks who have stories these 841 00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:09,600 Speaker 1: similar experiences. Uh. If you know, many of us find 842 00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:13,320 Speaker 1: ourselves doing our best to analyze something from every angle 843 00:52:13,560 --> 00:52:16,799 Speaker 1: and sometimes we can't come up with an explanation. We 844 00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:21,360 Speaker 1: want to hear about your ghostly or paranormal conundrums. Thanks 845 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,439 Speaker 1: also to Anton, to Jen, to every single person who 846 00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,719 Speaker 1: has written in who was called UH. We have a 847 00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:32,959 Speaker 1: we have a wonderful, wonderful gift of a gargante wine 848 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,920 Speaker 1: amount of feedback to go through. We're doing our best. 849 00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:41,280 Speaker 1: We want you to add. We want you to add 850 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:45,920 Speaker 1: your your voice to this conversation, your takes, your thoughts, 851 00:52:46,239 --> 00:52:49,000 Speaker 1: give us your creepy stories on the internet, tell us 852 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,600 Speaker 1: your experiences, and we try to make it very easy 853 00:52:52,640 --> 00:52:55,320 Speaker 1: to find us. You no longer need a wegia board 854 00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,080 Speaker 1: to contact the show. We've got social media. That's right. 855 00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:01,840 Speaker 1: You can find us on the dual spots Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, 856 00:53:01,880 --> 00:53:05,560 Speaker 1: where we are conspiracy Stuff and Conspiracy Stuff Show. Our 857 00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:08,080 Speaker 1: favorite place on the internet is our Facebook group. Here's 858 00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,080 Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. All you have to do is 859 00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,000 Speaker 1: name a name one of the three of us, the 860 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,600 Speaker 1: four of us, the five of us, doc Mission Control me, 861 00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:20,279 Speaker 1: Ben Matt Uh, name a topic that we've discussed. Are 862 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,839 Speaker 1: just something to make Ben chuckle, and you're in lots 863 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:26,120 Speaker 1: of great meme sharing and UH and friendship. Lifelong friendships, 864 00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,879 Speaker 1: if I might add that, are made on Here's where 865 00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:31,400 Speaker 1: it gets crazy. If you don't want to use social media, 866 00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:34,000 Speaker 1: give us a call. Our number is one eight three 867 00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:38,040 Speaker 1: three std w y t K. Please leave a message. 868 00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:40,640 Speaker 1: Let us know if you don't want us to use 869 00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:42,799 Speaker 1: your voice on the air, or if you don't want 870 00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:45,600 Speaker 1: us to use your name. It's easier that way because 871 00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:52,160 Speaker 1: otherwise we'll just use it and we're cool with that. Um. 872 00:53:52,560 --> 00:53:54,200 Speaker 1: If you don't want to do that, there's a great 873 00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:57,440 Speaker 1: way to contact us. We have a good old fashioned email. 874 00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:03,040 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at i are radio dot com, Easter Egg. 875 00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:05,839 Speaker 1: Look at this slick mug you want? You want one 876 00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:28,600 Speaker 1: of these? Public all right? That's that's it. Stuff they 877 00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:30,520 Speaker 1: don't want you to know is a production of I 878 00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:33,759 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit 879 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,560 Speaker 1: the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 880 00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:37,760 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.