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Speaker 1: Conversations on life, style, beauty, and relationships. It's The Velvet's

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Speaker 1: Edge Podcast with Kelly Henderson.

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Speaker 2: Fannie Hammer is the former vice chair of NBC Universal,

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Speaker 2: where she spent decades running the most high pressure, male

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Speaker 2: dominated rooms and entertainment. Now she's stepping forward with a

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Speaker 2: new book, Fifteen Lives Women Are Told at Work and

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Speaker 2: the Truth We Need to Succeed, where she calls out

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Speaker 2: the advice that sounds empowering, like just work hard, know

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Speaker 2: your worth, your work speaks for itself. That can actually

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Speaker 2: keep women small, silent and stuck. Hi, Vannie, I'm so

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Speaker 2: happy to meet you. Thank you so much for being here.

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Speaker 3: That's my pleasure, and I'm looking forward to chatting me too.

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Speaker 2: I feel like you are a wealth of knowledge for

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Speaker 2: the women out there. I mean we just mentioned the

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Speaker 2: male dominated rooms that you've worked in in the entertainment industry,

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Speaker 2: and I know you've just had this unbelievable career, starting

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Speaker 2: from the assistance position up into what was called the

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Speaker 2: Queen of cable at one point. But when you look back,

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Speaker 2: I want to know what do you think actually set

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Speaker 2: you apart to have such success in such a male

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Speaker 2: dominated world.

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Speaker 3: I think there were a couple of things.

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Speaker 4: If I really go back, I think it starts with

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Speaker 4: my dad. And my dad as I was growing up,

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Speaker 4: because he was a Russian immigrant, his only thing to

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Speaker 4: me and to my brother were there's no such word

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Speaker 4: as camp. If you can't do something, you're simply not

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Speaker 4: trying hard enough. So I started with that, and then

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Speaker 4: as a young kid, I went to summer camp, and

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Speaker 4: I when I was really really young, so my mom

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Speaker 4: had a heart attack and my father didn't know what

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Speaker 4: to do with me, so he was friends with some

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Speaker 4: owners of the camp up in the Catskills was known

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Speaker 4: as zaborsche Belt at the time, and I wasn't six yet,

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Speaker 4: and I was sleep away camp with a bunch of

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Speaker 4: kids and luckily a family that least knew me, and

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Speaker 4: I learned at a very very early age how to

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Speaker 4: work with other people or kids, how to be a

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Speaker 4: team player, you know, how to collaborate, how to kind

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Speaker 4: of in a sense that wasn't a room. It was

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Speaker 4: an ugly bunk with no air conditioner a fan kind

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Speaker 4: of read the room of the kids. Because being the youngest,

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Speaker 4: I had to figure out how to fit in, and

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Speaker 4: I think that really helped me navigate much much later

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Speaker 4: in life, and I don't think I realized any of

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Speaker 4: it till hindsight set and I started looking back on

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Speaker 4: why I made certain decisions, how I got where I did,

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Speaker 4: and why. So a lot of this is in hindsight

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Speaker 4: in terms of how or why I think I succeeded

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Speaker 4: in a very crazy at the time. I was growing

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Speaker 4: up in a male dominated world, and I owe a

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Speaker 4: lot to my dad and to early experiences knowing how

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Speaker 4: to get a and knowing how to see what was

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Speaker 4: going on in front of me and not having to

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Speaker 4: I didn't have to own the success of winning in

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Speaker 4: a game. I gave it away to others because it

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Speaker 4: was better, nicer, It showed a bit of humility, which

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Speaker 4: I see now that I probably did it out of insecurity.

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Speaker 4: But there are all tools that I turned into strengths

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Speaker 4: later on in life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you're referencing when you were six, So

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Speaker 2: this starts really early for us, which is always something

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Speaker 2: we talk about on this podcast, kind of the programming

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Speaker 2: that we start to, you know, put into our own

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Speaker 2: lives and in our own processes that we don't even

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Speaker 2: realize that we're doing. So if you started at six

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Speaker 2: learning how to work with the group or turning over

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Speaker 2: the winning How did that play into your early days

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Speaker 2: of starting in the TV business.

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Speaker 4: For me, I was very insecure when I was young,

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Speaker 4: and because I was in my early early days at

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Speaker 4: camp younger than everybody else in the room, and then

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Speaker 4: I skipped a grade at one point, so again I

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Speaker 4: was a year younger. I think I always felt a

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Speaker 4: little insecure, and that insecurity drove some oddly positive things.

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Speaker 4: I would be watchful of other people because I didn't

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Speaker 4: want to try to compete. I've learned to be humble

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Speaker 4: and have a little humility, so people would want me

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Speaker 4: in their group rather than me being the young one

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Speaker 4: trying to prove myself and you know, be arrogant about something,

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Speaker 4: so they would even you know, tease me more. I

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Speaker 4: think a lot of stuff started by being a little

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Speaker 4: insecure and not having the confidence, and as I grew up,

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Speaker 4: I realized that was a you know, like a phenomenal

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Speaker 4: tool that when you really define it later in life,

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Speaker 4: it's true humility.

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Speaker 3: It's being humble, it's.

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Speaker 4: Being willing to give the wins to somebody else, and

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Speaker 4: it shows you what that happens if you can work

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Speaker 4: with others play with others, give other people the kudos

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Speaker 4: for doing something good. It creates a loyalty, creates a

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Speaker 4: sense of team, a sense of collaboration, and people want

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Speaker 4: to be around you, and in my case wanted to

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Speaker 4: work for me and that really helped a lot.

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Speaker 3: So it was an incredible tool.

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Speaker 2: Well, so when I first was listening to you say

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Speaker 2: these things and then also just thinking about that, I

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Speaker 2: might have thought, oh, well, these are lies that she

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Speaker 2: probably believed that she needs to play a part of.

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Speaker 2: But one of the main things that kept coming up

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Speaker 2: when I was researching for this podcast was your mentality

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Speaker 2: about women actually taking things that we should look at

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Speaker 2: as skill sets that we have, which is what I'm

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Speaker 2: hearing in this talk of being humble. We look at

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Speaker 2: them as weakness, right because of the way our society

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Speaker 2: has developed. I don't typically love to like hate on

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Speaker 2: men for being one way and women for being another.

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Speaker 2: I think it's the way we have looked at success

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Speaker 2: of the last couple of years has been in a

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Speaker 2: male dominated field that has been defined by some of

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Speaker 2: those energies, and maybe that's shifting a little bit. Can

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Speaker 2: you speak to that though, of what you see women

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Speaker 2: play like really dismissing within ourselves and our skill sets

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Speaker 2: we can bring to the workplace.

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Speaker 4: Two things about what you just said, okay, is in

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Speaker 4: order to support women or ourselves, we don't have to

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Speaker 4: necessarily put down the guys.

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Speaker 3: Yea.

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Speaker 4: You know they play the game one way, women play

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Speaker 4: it the other. Yes, what women do which is problematic,

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Speaker 4: they don't own what is really part of the DNA

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Speaker 4: or the chemistry of women.

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Speaker 3: We are natural caregivers.

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Speaker 4: Our chromosomes, our body types basically, you know, create hormones

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Speaker 4: that are very very positive. They we as caregivers, as

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Speaker 4: people who have children, we learn how to play again,

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Speaker 4: aim very differently than the guys. But we look too

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Speaker 4: often we look at that as weaknesses. Warm caregiving, collaboration,

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Speaker 4: taking care of things, being a detailed person, juggling stuff.

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Speaker 4: We don't necessarily say believe these things are strengths, when

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Speaker 4: in fact are incredible strengths. You know, when you think

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Speaker 4: about how men and women differ in terms of disagreements,

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Speaker 4: you know, men want to win the war. Women kind

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Speaker 4: of want to bury the hatchet. They just want it

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Speaker 4: over with and want to move ahead. And again, unfortunately,

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Speaker 4: both society and some workplaces look at that as weakness

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Speaker 4: when it's a phenomenal strength, and how to negotiate a

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Speaker 4: win win as opposed to have to be the winner.

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Speaker 4: There are so many things in our world that we

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Speaker 4: view as weaknesses for women, especially warmth, collaborations, sympathy, empathy,

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Speaker 4: things that create loyalty, which are phenomenal strengths in the workplace,

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Speaker 4: but we don't own the credit for it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think even the talking about being humble,

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Speaker 2: and you said so many people wanted to work for you,

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Speaker 2: and I was thinking about, you know, I'm in a

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Speaker 2: freelance position, so I have various bosses and it's so

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Speaker 2: interesting because the ones that I want to do my

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Speaker 2: best work, that I'm really dedicated to that are the

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Speaker 2: ones that make it a team effort when we win.

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Speaker 2: And I wondered if there was one particular lesson that

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Speaker 2: you could speak to about that kind of thing about

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Speaker 2: being the boss or being in a position of power,

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Speaker 2: and how we've kind of miss miss I don't know,

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Speaker 2: have set ourselves up for failure in these ways of

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Speaker 2: the team winning and the whole company winning by maybe

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Speaker 2: that person not taking all of the credit.

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Speaker 4: Not many leaders understand that ultimately, if your team, if

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Speaker 4: your show. If your product, whatever it is, makes it

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Speaker 4: regardless who has a credit or you give credit to

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Speaker 4: or the world does, it's ultimately your win. You can

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Speaker 4: sit back just kind of ass quietly in the success.

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Speaker 4: So for me, I never had to take the credit

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Speaker 4: for anything. I try to hire really good people around

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Speaker 4: me and when I hired. If I were to hire Kelly,

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Speaker 4: it would be okay, she grated her skill set.

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Speaker 3: Does she know what she's doing?

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Speaker 4: But in an interview, I would want to see how

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Speaker 4: often you gave credit.

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Speaker 3: To someone else. I would want to.

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Speaker 4: See or hear, you know, is she talking just about

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Speaker 4: herself or she asking questions? You know, I want to

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Speaker 4: look at how you deal or navigate in your former

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Speaker 4: world the present world, and how you deal with me

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Speaker 4: to understand if you're a team player. And that would

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Speaker 4: be as important, sometimes more important in terms of my

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Speaker 4: hiring you for our team, because I wanted people who

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Speaker 4: were team players, because if we win, we all win.

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Speaker 3: And anybody who thinks producing a.

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Speaker 4: Show, creating a show, you know, creating a channel, if

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Speaker 4: you will, is a single person's job.

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Speaker 3: They're nuts.

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Speaker 4: It really really takes a huge team to get it done,

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Speaker 4: and you have to be in sync. I never wanted

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Speaker 4: one person in a room, and I had everybody read scripts,

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Speaker 4: even if they were finance people. You read the script,

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Speaker 4: I want your opinion. We're going to take notes, put

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Speaker 4: it up on our little chalkboard and talk about why

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Speaker 4: you liked it, why you didn't like it.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't matter that you're not a creative. Can you

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Speaker 3: relate to it?

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Speaker 4: So it got people invested in the product, so then

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Speaker 4: they become the person. Instead of saying, you know, you're

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Speaker 4: of a budget, their approach will be, let's figure out

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Speaker 4: how we can manipulate this budget to make the show work.

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Speaker 4: They were invested, so for me, it was really important

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Speaker 4: have team players in every aspect of a job, creating

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Speaker 4: a culture that was supportive of one another, rather than

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Speaker 4: people raising the hands and said I did that, I

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Speaker 4: should get there.

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Speaker 3: I want that. And it's funny.

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Speaker 4: Later in my career, I heard once or twice that

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Speaker 4: Bonnie's teams she has a cult, and I would always say,

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Speaker 4: it's not a culture off by three letters, it's a

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Speaker 4: culture people they wanted to continue working with one another.

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Speaker 4: I had people on my teams for multiple decades because

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Speaker 4: they were happy they got the credit for stuff they

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Speaker 4: were well paid, but they felt good about what they did.

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Speaker 3: I also broke rules that created some loyalty.

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Speaker 4: And this is funny that I can admit now, but

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Speaker 4: I couldn't really talk about it at the time. When

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Speaker 4: any of the women on my team's had a kid,

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Speaker 4: I made a quiet deal with them that they had

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Speaker 4: a four day work they're getting paid for five, that

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Speaker 4: whenever I needed them, I needed them. Other than that,

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Speaker 4: I wanted them home early. I want them to do

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Speaker 4: what they needed to do to take care of their family,

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Speaker 4: et cetera. But I never told up a management. To me,

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Speaker 4: it was really important because I did not have that,

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Speaker 4: and I remembered how polled I was, and the loyalty

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Speaker 4: that something as simple as that created for the women

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Speaker 4: who work with inf me was incredible. All they want

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Speaker 4: them to do is get back because I had such freedom,

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Speaker 4: and I never cared where they were, and I never

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Speaker 4: wanted them to lie to me. If they were going

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Speaker 4: to a kid's softball game, just tell me where you're going.

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Speaker 3: Don't pretend you're going to a meeting.

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Speaker 4: My thing would be great, fine, or it's today's not

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Speaker 4: a good day to do that.

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Speaker 3: We're under a lot of pressure and it worked.

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Speaker 2: Do you find those to be qualities that a female

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Speaker 2: leader might be able to exhibit more than a male leader.

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Speaker 4: I do, because I think many women in any industry

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Speaker 4: are juggling, and even though guys have families, they usually

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Speaker 4: have someone at home taking care of everything. We as

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Speaker 4: a caregivers. Even if we have a nanny or we

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Speaker 4: have help at home, we still primarily the mother. It

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Speaker 4: is innate in us that we feel we have to

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Speaker 4: juggle and are responsible for everything. So I think the

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Speaker 4: empathy level, the degree of commitment to it is harder,

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Speaker 4: and we are juggling more. Even if we refuse to

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Speaker 4: admit it publicly or you know, when we're in the

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Speaker 4: room in a meeting with everybody, it's still something that's

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Speaker 4: on our minds. I remember once going to a elementary

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Speaker 4: school meeting with whoever we had to meet with at

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Speaker 4: the time, and my kid was probably in second grade,

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Speaker 4: and I got recommended back then, and we're talking about

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Speaker 4: many years ago. He's thirty two, know, but I got

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Speaker 4: reprimanded because I asked for a seven point fifteen one

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Speaker 4: of the guys meeting times, because I had to make

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Speaker 4: a train to get to the city, to get to work,

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Speaker 4: and the principal actually gave me a little bit of

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Speaker 4: a lecture about being a working mom in those days,

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Speaker 4: to the point that I got on the train and

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Speaker 4: I started crying and told my husband from the train saying,

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Speaker 4: I don't know if I can do this. And it

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Speaker 4: was a lecture about being a.

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Speaker 2: Working mom, which a man would never get.

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Speaker 3: Exactly right, exactly right.

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Speaker 2: I think that a lot of women are kind of

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Speaker 2: brought up in this scarcity mindset of if I want,

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Speaker 2: she can't have, and there's only so many spaces for

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Speaker 2: each of us. And I really respect the fact that

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Speaker 2: you talk about being a leader from this place of no,

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Speaker 2: we're all in the same team. So is that something

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Speaker 2: you really felt like you had to buck against even

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Speaker 2: more as a woman.

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Speaker 4: You hit something very very important that unfortunately still exists.

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Speaker 4: I'm not sure why it didn't envelop me in the

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Speaker 4: same way, but I always told it was very important

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Speaker 4: for me to have women on my team, very strong women,

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Speaker 4: and my teams were always at least half women, and

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Speaker 4: it was interesting it was probably half women of the guys.

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Speaker 3: Half the guys were gay, and it.

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Speaker 4: Made for a really fun, collaborative, great team. The one

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Speaker 4: thing I've realized, which is very, very hard, because it's

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Speaker 4: not going away. Too many women who are succeeding right

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Speaker 4: now do not support other women to the degree that

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Speaker 4: they have to, simply because their belief is if there's

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Speaker 4: only one seat at the table, I want to get it,

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Speaker 4: and if I bring up others or if I support

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Speaker 4: other women to two greater degree, they may get it

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Speaker 4: and I won't. And what they don't understand is until

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Speaker 4: we have more women in the C suites, nothing's going

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Speaker 4: to change. And it doesn't mean that guys shouldn't be

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Speaker 4: there and there shouldn't be equal representation for everyone. I

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Speaker 4: really believe in that. But women need to support other

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Speaker 4: women rather than be competitive with them, negatively competitive with them,

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Speaker 4: because it's just going to hurt everybody. And I do

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Speaker 4: think it's because of the scarcity of those positions as

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Speaker 4: opposed to just human nature of women just wanting to compete.

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Speaker 3: I think it's just fear get.

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Speaker 4: If they bring someone else up, it means they have

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Speaker 4: less of a chance of getting there, and it's a

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Speaker 4: little it's bullshit, And I think other women need to

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Speaker 4: support other women because the more women in the C suites,

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Speaker 4: the better off are all going to be in terms

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Speaker 4: of building teams, in terms of empathy, in terms of loyalty,

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Speaker 4: in terms of the traits that we possess.

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Speaker 2: How do we get over that threat feeling? Though you know,

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Speaker 2: I actually really resonate with the way that you operate,

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Speaker 2: because to me, it's always been a mentality of the

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Speaker 2: more of us there is, the more impact we have.

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Speaker 2: But I've just really faced in my life the opposite,

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Speaker 2: where the higher I got, the more people, specifically women,

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Speaker 2: I felt, would want to tear me down. And that

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Speaker 2: was always shocking to me. So how do we let

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Speaker 2: go of that threat?

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Speaker 4: Part of it is negatively confronting. It is not going

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Speaker 4: to work, but it's almost like a reverse humiliation. It's

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Speaker 4: basically saying, you know, confronting in a kind way, saying

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Speaker 4: you know, I'm trying to work together with you.

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Speaker 3: What can I do to help you.

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Speaker 4: Part of it is figuring out what their agenda is

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Speaker 4: and figuring out how to get a yes from them

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Speaker 4: that helps you and helps them at the same time.

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Speaker 4: So for me, it's a piece of reading the room.

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Speaker 4: Why is she reacting that way to me? Is she

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Speaker 4: threatened by me? Is she threatened by something I've done.

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Speaker 4: Is she threatened only because she doesn't think that she

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Speaker 4: wants competition for that role that she envisions up there.

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Speaker 3: And figuring out a.

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Speaker 4: Way to kind of read her and get her to

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Speaker 4: support your agenda while you support hers almost kind of

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Speaker 4: be threatening her by figuring out what you can do

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Speaker 4: to help her out, rather than building up more of

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Speaker 4: a wall and a resentment to her.

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Speaker 3: That just feeds into her cause.

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Speaker 4: And my thing is trying to break other people down

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Speaker 4: so they see I'm not a threat and I really

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Speaker 4: want to work with them. And if I try a

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Speaker 4: couple of times it doesn't work, then I just chalk

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Speaker 4: it off the board and say, you know, something not

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Speaker 4: going to happen, Bye bye. But I usually give people

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Speaker 4: the benefit of the doubt, wants or twice to figure

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Speaker 4: out what their agenda is. Try to see if we

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Speaker 4: can figure out how to get our agendas together and

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Speaker 4: work together or help one another.

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Speaker 3: If it doesn't work, at least I know I've.

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Speaker 2: Tried, right, You've given it the effort. Well, let's talk

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Speaker 2: a little bit about the book. It's called Fifteen Lives

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Speaker 2: Women Are Told at Work. Obviously, you have tons of

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Speaker 2: experience from all of the years in the entertainment industry

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Speaker 2: and even the positions of leadership that we've just been discussing.

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Speaker 2: I need to know that what made you want to

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Speaker 2: write all of these down and put into a book.

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Speaker 3: First of all, it was a pandemic.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: I was, for the.

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Speaker 4: First time in my life not commuting to New York,

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Speaker 4: you know, back and forth, so I had like four

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Speaker 4: extra hours in a day, so I had the time,

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Speaker 4: so that was available.

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Speaker 3: The other thing was I mean, I was at a point.

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Speaker 4: In my career where I really felt I wanted to

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Speaker 4: figure out a way to pay things forward. You know,

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Speaker 4: how do I help You know, the women who worked

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Speaker 4: with and for me or in the company that even

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Speaker 4: if they didn't work for me, they knew they can

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Speaker 4: come to me for advice is one thing, But how

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Speaker 4: do I reach out to others and in a sense

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Speaker 4: create a mentor in a pocket so I could pay

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Speaker 4: it forward to other women who are younger trying to negotiate,

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Speaker 4: you know, and navigate the path to growing in a business,

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Speaker 4: in any business, not just media. I also thought it

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Speaker 4: would be good for guys too, but unfortunately Simon and Schuster.

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Speaker 3: Said, no, we wonder for women. So we need to

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Speaker 3: market it air for it's going to be women, right, guys.

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Speaker 4: But a lot of men have read the book and

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Speaker 4: they've been really appreciative of it as well. So it

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Speaker 4: was wanting to figure out a way to help others

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Speaker 4: in a broader way than just basically mentoring those that

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Speaker 4: I see every day at work. And then also realizing

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Speaker 4: if I had listened to so many of these cliches

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Speaker 4: when I was young, I think I would have fallen

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Speaker 4: flat on my face and no way in hell succeeded.

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Speaker 4: So I started thinking through all the cliches that we

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Speaker 4: have been brought up to believe from you know, the

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Speaker 4: basic ones, follow your dreams so you can have it

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Speaker 4: all to find friends in high places, and each one

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Speaker 4: that I went through was no.

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Speaker 3: That's wrong, that's wrong.

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Speaker 4: And to me it was like, how do I create

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Speaker 4: a manual for success? Because if people believe these cliches,

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Speaker 4: it is self sabotage. So to simplify it, I got okay,

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Speaker 4: so what is the uncommon common sense that women need

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Speaker 4: to succeed as opposed to a manual of bullshit? And

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Speaker 4: the other thing I realized was there's so many advice

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Speaker 4: books out there, but so few books about bad advice.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I've never thought of that. That's so true.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's you know, everyone's giving advice, but no one's

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Speaker 4: knocking the bad advice that we're getting.

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Speaker 2: Right right, Well, and the way the book is set

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Speaker 2: up is so brilliant because you say, you say the myth,

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Speaker 2: which like follow your dreams, and then you say the truth,

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Speaker 2: and that's obviously coming from all of these years of experience.

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Speaker 2: Can we use the follow your dreams for an example

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Speaker 2: to tell the listeners just kind of how this book

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Speaker 2: is set up, So you say, follow your dreams is

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Speaker 2: the myth, and then the truth was remind me of

400
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Speaker 2: follow the opportunities, follow the opportunities. Yes, explain that a

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Speaker 2: little bit.

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Speaker 4: Well, we've all been brought up with since we're little kids,

403
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Speaker 4: whether it's a parent or a school teacher, you know,

404
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:47,720
Speaker 4: or a grandparent whispering in our ears. You know, if

405
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 4: you follow your passion, you're never going to work a

406
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Speaker 4: day in your life. But the reality is you can't

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Speaker 4: be what you can't see, you can't dream.

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Speaker 3: What you don't know.

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Speaker 4: So following your dreams can actually be nightmare advice because

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Speaker 4: you're learning something the age of six and seven that

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Speaker 4: gets ingrained in your brain cells. You have no clue

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Speaker 4: what that really means in real life, you know, And

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Speaker 4: even if it comes to you on your own when

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Speaker 4: you're six years old, you know, playing baseball, Oh I

415
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,399
Speaker 4: want to be a baseball star, or of course you

416
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 4: took in high school, you still have no idea what

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Speaker 4: that really means in real life. And until you get

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Speaker 4: to a point where you can experience a variety of things,

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Speaker 4: you really have no clue what that adult dream will

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Speaker 4: turn out to be that's actually doable. You know, are

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Speaker 4: you an introvert or an extrovert. It's going to determine

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Speaker 4: whether you going to wear and work at home or

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Speaker 4: are you going to need a big environment. You don't

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Speaker 4: know that as a child or even as a young adult,

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Speaker 4: especially these days when so many people are saying, oh, yes,

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Speaker 4: you can work remotely. Is that how you want to

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Speaker 4: live your life? Or do you want to be in

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Speaker 4: the room where things are happening. So you have to

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00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 4: experience a whole lot of different things in order for

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Speaker 4: you to find out what you're good at, what makes

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00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 4: you happy, what fits your personality, what you can succeed at.

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Speaker 4: And you're not going to find that in a dream

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Speaker 4: does mean that.

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Speaker 3: For me.

435
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 4: For example, my dream was photography, and I you know,

436
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 4: went to school for it.

437
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 3: I was in Vota journalism.

438
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Speaker 4: And then in between undergraduate and graduate, I had three

439
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Speaker 4: different or four different photo jobs and each one I hated.

440
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 4: One was in the dark room and my lovely manicured

441
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 4: nails at the time would turn yellow from the hyphone the.

442
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 2: Chemicals, andody wants that.

443
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 4: And then I graduated to be with a commercial photographer

444
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 4: in his studio, but everything was artificial. It was artificial light,

445
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 4: artificial flowers, artificial water on the flowers, and I realized, no,

446
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 4: I like Cardia abras On, I want the decisive moment,

447
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,239
Speaker 4: and that I was a photo editor taking photographs that

448
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,359
Speaker 4: I would connect to other people's photographs, to other people's words.

449
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 3: That was boring.

450
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 4: So I ended up realizing that photography was a passion,

451
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 4: but it wasn't something that was going to make me

452
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 4: a living and make it a happy living. So the

453
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,399
Speaker 4: reality is, you know, you can have a passion, but

454
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 4: it doesn't have to be your boss. Find out what

455
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 4: you can do, what you like doing in a work

456
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 4: world that fits your personality, and keep that other thing.

457
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 4: It doesn't mean you're throwing it away, but it doesn't

458
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 4: have to be your paycheck.

459
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

460
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 2: I always get so upset when i'd talk to, you know,

461
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 2: high schoolers and they're thinking, oh, at eighteen, I've got

462
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 2: to decide what i want to do with the rest

463
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 2: of my life, because in my experience that has evolved

464
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,200
Speaker 2: so much. And in fact, I used to feel a

465
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 2: little bit of shame about that because I wasn't one

466
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 2: of those people that knew what they wanted to do

467
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 2: for the rest of their life at ten years old

468
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:01,920
Speaker 2: or something like that. I used to think that meant

469
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,919
Speaker 2: I wasn't as talented. But the truth is is like

470
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,000
Speaker 2: this job that I'm doing right now, this didn't even

471
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 2: exist when I was in college, So how would I

472
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 2: have known. But another thing you talk about being so

473
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,239
Speaker 2: important in your adult life in the work world is

474
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:20,359
Speaker 2: knowing how to adapt and change and really like letting

475
00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 2: go of some of these things that we just have

476
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 2: deemed as the way that it needs to go, and

477
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 2: then that shifting and the feeling like that's a failure,

478
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,680
Speaker 2: but instead looking at that as like a new opportunity.

479
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 2: Can you speak to that a little bit?

480
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,479
Speaker 4: Exactly what you're saying is one hundred percent true. There

481
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 4: are a couple of pieces of that. As we said,

482
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 4: you can't be what you can see. How do you

483
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 4: know about podcasts before it existed? It Until you get

484
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 4: exposed to it later online and open to it, it

485
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 4: would have passed just it would have just been a

486
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,720
Speaker 4: by gone There's no way I wanted to try that

487
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 4: because it wasn't my passion. But the thing that I

488
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 4: think affects everybody, male and female, but I think female

489
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 4: a little bit more is change and the ability to

490
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 4: embrace change and not run from it. It is more

491
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,760
Speaker 4: often threatening than positive and optimistic. But the truth is

492
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 4: the only thing that is constant life is change. Regardless

493
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 4: of your age, your stage, your wage, It's going to

494
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 4: come at you, so you might as well embrace it

495
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 4: and use that as a stepping stone to your next step.

496
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,760
Speaker 4: When I talk about opportunities, when you think about what

497
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 4: the world is like right now. If you have an

498
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 4: idea of what you want to do, and you climb

499
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 4: a ladder, get to a certain place and then there's

500
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 4: a ceiling, there's nowhere else you can go because you

501
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 4: get to the top of that space and it's gone.

502
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,479
Speaker 4: I look at opportunities as the way to create a

503
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 4: spider web where you keep trying different things and then

504
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 4: eventually you're going to find something you love.

505
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 3: But you have such a great skill.

506
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 4: Set that, for example, when AI comes and your job

507
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 4: goes away, you have other things to fall back on.

508
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 4: Because you just go on a singular path. It gives

509
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 4: you such breath as opposed to a ladder which you

510
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,199
Speaker 4: hit a ceiling, that you can almost do anything in

511
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 4: everything because you're willing to try things, You're willing to experiment,

512
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 4: you're willing to test yourself out, and it gives you

513
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 4: such great opportunities that you'll always be able to find

514
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 4: something to fit into because you're not narrow, You're not

515
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 4: to find by one skill set.

516
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 2: I feel like we are living out right now one

517
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: of the beautiful qualities that a female leader would have,

518
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 2: and that is giving yourself grace and walking with yourself

519
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 2: through life versus saying it is this path. It's like

520
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 2: we're letting go of the structure a little bit, and like,

521
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 2: that's what I hear you saying. A lot is kind

522
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 2: of learning how to flow with the way that life

523
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 2: goes exactly. Isn't that the way that life works?

524
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 4: Yes, Whether you know, people think that if they are

525
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 4: rigid and can stay in the lane, they're going to

526
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 4: automatically get or eventually get where they want to go.

527
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 4: The reality is it makes you so rigid that you

528
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 4: aren't open to other people, other opportunities.

529
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 3: You're going to miss out.

530
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 4: On meeting people who can take you in a whole

531
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 4: other direction, you know, enjoying life that you would have

532
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 4: never expected because you were too fearful of trying it.

533
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 4: It opens up so many different doors if you just

534
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 4: are willing to experiment, to try things, realize you're going

535
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 4: to trip, You're going to fail, and that's okay, get up,

536
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 4: that's yourself off and try something else. But don't look

537
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 4: at it again. Don't look at it as a failure.

538
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,000
Speaker 4: Look at it as all right. I love that, Let's

539
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 4: move on.

540
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's such a big lesson. Well, we

541
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 2: talk about burnout a lot on this podcast, and I

542
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: went through a really big season of it, and my

543
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 2: listeners walked through me with that. I'm curious if you

544
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 2: being in such I mean, that job to me sounds

545
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: so demanding, and I know you have a family as well,

546
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: and so did you ever feel like there was a

547
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 2: point where you were losing yourself to the grind and

548
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 2: not being able to balance in the way that you

549
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:30,680
Speaker 2: said you would give even your female employees kind of

550
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:31,719
Speaker 2: that grace.

551
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 3: You never feel balanced, I don't, okay.

552
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 4: Anybody says when they're living in the moment or looking

553
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:43,120
Speaker 4: back at it, if you are truthful, especially if you're

554
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 4: a woman with a family, you are never in balance.

555
00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 4: You are always feeling you're cheating on something. When I

556
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 4: would be at work, I always felt I was cheating

557
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 4: on my kids. When I was on vacation, I always

558
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,160
Speaker 4: thought I was cheating on my colleagues that I left

559
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 4: in the workplace taking over what I wasn't doing for

560
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 4: that week or two weeks. It is, by nature something

561
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 4: that you have to come to terms with that you're

562
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 4: always going to feel out of balance, and only in

563
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 4: hindsight where you believe you succeeded in having it all

564
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 4: that when you're living through it, you're always going to

565
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 4: feel somehow that you're giving up or not hurting somebody,

566
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 4: but letting somebody down, either in the workplace or outside.

567
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,560
Speaker 4: But when people realize that that's normal and that's okay,

568
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 4: is when it's healthy. When it gets into your system

569
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 4: to a degree where you can't lose it. That's when

570
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 4: I worry. But that's usually when people don't realize that

571
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 4: every other woman with a family who is in a

572
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 4: position is feeling the same way, and it's okay, right,

573
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 4: okay to feel that way, because that's how it is.

574
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you got to your final position and you

575
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 2: were I would say at the top, what did confidence

576
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: feel like? What did that look like for you in

577
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: a manner of confidence? Did it feel any different from

578
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 2: any other time in your life or is there always

579
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 2: kind of the same energy of I want to do

580
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: the best that I can. I'm kind of striving to

581
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 2: chase these things. I'm working on the balance of my

582
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 2: balancing my family and my work life.

583
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 3: What did it feel like?

584
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 4: It's a complicated question because I don't think anyone ever

585
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 4: feels that they they are at a point where they

586
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 4: can't learn more, or can't do better, or can even

587
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 4: succeed further. I think that's always somehow out in the ether.

588
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 4: But for me, the difference was once I got to

589
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 4: a certain place and when I was of a certain age,

590
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 4: I became a gender free.

591
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 3: I no longer was.

592
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 4: Navigating my work way or anything else I was doing

593
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 4: with a specific agenda in mind. I got to a

594
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,760
Speaker 4: point where all I wanted to do was the right thing,

595
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 4: whether it was for my team, for a project, for

596
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 4: the boss, whatever. I wasn't looking for more money, I

597
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 4: wasn't looking for the next position. I wasn't looking to

598
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 4: take over the world. You become comfortable in your own

599
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 4: skin that you literally are doing things for all the

600
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 4: right reasons, not for any other reason of growth, money,

601
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 4: anything else other than because you believed it was the

602
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 4: way to go. And that to me was incredible freedom.

603
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 4: That it was when I looked at a situation, I

604
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,479
Speaker 4: wasn't trying to figure out whether the decision I was

605
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 4: making for any other reason than the purity of the decision,

606
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 4: Was it the right decision for the team, for the project,

607
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 4: for whatever, as opposed to, well if we do this,

608
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 4: we'll get another show, if we work with that company, Well,

609
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 4: there was no agenda other than for this thing that

610
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 4: I'm making decision about, or for this person or for

611
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 4: the team, is this the right thing to do?

612
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 3: To me, that was very free.

613
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 2: I can't remember where I read this about you, but

614
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 2: I remember reading something that said you have said now

615
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 2: that you really just want to be in service to

616
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 2: others at the stage of your life. And I wondered

617
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 2: what success looks like for you now, because it sounds

618
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: like it probably looks very different.

619
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 4: Well, I don't even think I would use the word

620
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 4: success anymore. I think that so much more with navigating

621
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:46,280
Speaker 4: a work world.

622
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 3: I think contentment.

623
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 4: I think a different kind of happiness, freedom in a

624
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 4: lot of ways. But for me, it's about paying it forward,

625
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 4: it's giving back. I have been very lucky. I have

626
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:07,280
Speaker 4: had an amazing career, working with and for some amazing people,

627
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 4: having some incredible mentors, and I've.

628
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 3: Been very lucky.

629
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 4: It's not to say it didn't work my butt off,

630
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,440
Speaker 4: but it takes more than just work. It takes a

631
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 4: lot of luck, and it takes a lot of people

632
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 4: to kind of help you get where you're ultimately where

633
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 4: I ultimately got to, and I'd want to help others

634
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 4: kind of get to that place. I want to be

635
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 4: a mentor to, you know, those who've worked with me before.

636
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,359
Speaker 4: Even though I'm not technically with NBC anymore, I'm still

637
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,279
Speaker 4: getting calls every single week, people wanting to know how

638
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 4: to navigate a certain situation. Being that companies are being

639
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 4: restructured now and it just gives me great happiness to

640
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 4: be able to help them again because I have mistaken it.

641
00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 4: So what ever advice I'm giving them is pure. There's

642
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 4: no reason I'd be telling them to go in one

643
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 4: direction over another other than I believe it to be

644
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 4: the right thing for them at that moment, where years

645
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:13,240
Speaker 4: ago you couldn't.

646
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 3: It was never completely clean.

647
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 4: There was always another agenda or is it good for

648
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,439
Speaker 4: this team? Am I losing them? Or are they going

649
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 4: to somewhere else? It wasn't as this is freeing and

650
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 4: it's part of being agenda free, but also it's pure,

651
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 4: and you can't it takes a long time in your

652
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 4: life to get back to that purity. It's almost as

653
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 4: if when we were very young, you know, and even

654
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 4: starting out in the work business, we didn't know anything

655
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 4: else other than the purity of trying to be or

656
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 4: get where we wanted to go. There was no other motivations.

657
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:59,240
Speaker 4: We didn't know they're needed to be right. Almost feel

658
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 4: I'm back at that stage of a young kid that

659
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 4: has no other motivation other than to try to do

660
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 4: the right thing right.

661
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 3: So it's a purity. It's a purity freedom.

662
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 2: I know you mentioned the word mentor, and another thing

663
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 2: you talk about is the importance of the truth teller

664
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,600
Speaker 2: as the mentor, not just someone who's going to kind

665
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 2: of tell you what you want to hear, or the

666
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,279
Speaker 2: nice thing of how good of a job you're doing,

667
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 2: that's going to shoot you straight. Can you speak to that,

668
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 2: because I think that is the opposite of which what

669
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: most of us seek when we're looking for a mentor.

670
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 4: I think we've been brought up to believe that mentors

671
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 4: are cheerleaders. They're the people who are going to pat

672
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 4: you on the back or the people who are going

673
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 4: to say, oh, you're so good, keep going, just get

674
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 4: in there, and it's those are lovely to have. And

675
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 4: I'm not saying that people shouldn't have some cheerleaders around them,

676
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 4: but I'm a huge believer in what I call the

677
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 4: challenging mentor. They're the tough love person. They put the

678
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:03,280
Speaker 4: word tough in tough love. They're truth tellers, their sparring partners,

679
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 4: their foils. They're the people who are they teach you

680
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 4: that you can do things that you don't believe you

681
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 4: can do yourself. They are the ones who really get

682
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 4: you into the game in a very different way. The

683
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 4: way I look at it is supportive cheerleader mentor types.

684
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 4: They kind of a cheering you on at the game.

685
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 4: But the challenging mentor doesn't just prepare you for the game.

686
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 4: They help you win the war because they basically are

687
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 4: going to push you to your limits. They're going to

688
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 4: tell you the truth about how you react to a

689
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 4: situation or if a job is good enough. And I

690
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:51,400
Speaker 4: had one of the I think challenging of challenging mentors

691
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 4: at a very good stage in my life because I

692
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 4: think I was ripe for it. I was just about ready,

693
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 4: but also not up there to such a degree that

694
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 4: I would fight it. But I also wasn't so soft

695
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 4: that it would kill me. And that was bary or

696
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 4: is to this day. Barry Diller and Barry taught me

697
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 4: how to think. Barry challenged everything I did, everything I said,

698
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 4: and it took me about eighteen months per working for

699
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 4: this guy to crawl out from under the table and

700
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 4: being willing to go toe to toe with him.

701
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 3: But that's the only thing he respected.

702
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 4: And I followed a guy who was working for him

703
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 4: who I kind of enjoyed the way they sparred to say, well,

704
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 4: Steve can do it, I should be able to do

705
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 4: this too.

706
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 3: So I remember the first time.

707
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 4: When Barry we were in a like a board meeting

708
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 4: sized room and all the people who reported to him,

709
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 4: and I threw out an idea and Barry literally said, Hammer,

710
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 4: that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I mean, he

711
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 4: would be that gruff these days, you know, ah'll never

712
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 4: get a li that, which I.

713
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:02,720
Speaker 3: Think is bad.

714
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 4: And I think a lot of a lot of the

715
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 4: younger generation getting hurt by the overwokeness of a yeah.

716
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 4: And I was able to say to him, Barry, shut up,

717
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 4: sit down, and if you don't listen to me, you're

718
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 4: going to be stupid.

719
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:21,239
Speaker 3: And he won't. Oh okay, that was the turning point

720
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:22,399
Speaker 3: of our relationship. Wow.

721
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,439
Speaker 4: And whether it was a show idea I was thinking about,

722
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 4: he would make me think out every detail of why

723
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 4: it would be. For one example, I was trying to

724
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 4: do a show about a psychic on the Sci Fi Channel.

725
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:38,280
Speaker 2: I would have loved this show.

726
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 3: And so this is John Edward, John Edwards. Yeah, that

727
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,919
Speaker 3: was John. And it was before John was John.

728
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 4: This was in the nineties, so I remember, And this

729
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,360
Speaker 4: was before iPhones or anything else. So if you're at

730
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,240
Speaker 4: a computer doing email, you were sitting at your computer

731
00:40:55,880 --> 00:41:01,840
Speaker 4: Monday afternoon, Barry texts me, emails me, and says, talk

732
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 4: to me about doing this show with a psychic.

733
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 3: Okay, what do you want to know? All right?

734
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:14,040
Speaker 4: His question to me was, if psychic surreal, why is

735
00:41:14,080 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 4: he on the Sci Fi Channel? If psychics are not real,

736
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 4: why the fuck are we in business with this guy?

737
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:24,240
Speaker 3: Long?

738
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 4: We go back and forth till it was like eleven

739
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 4: o'clock on a Sunday night, and when Barry's emailing you,

740
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 4: you do not leave the computer. You don't say I'll

741
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 4: talk to you on Monday, all weekend long. So finally

742
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 4: I said, all right, I'm going to give this one

743
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 4: more shot and then I'm over it. Sorry, John, you're

744
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 4: not getting a show. The email on something like, Okay, Barry,

745
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 4: whether you believe psychic surreal or I believe psychic surreal.

746
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 3: It's completely irrelevant. It's in the mind and the eyes

747
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 3: of the beholder. Therefore, either fact nor fiction, it's something

748
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 3: I'm going to call friction.

749
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 4: What better for the sci Fi Channel? He writes back, Okay,

750
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 4: your arguments win, go and.

751
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 2: The show was made.

752
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that's how much. He pushed you and challenged

753
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 4: That would never happen these days. If somebody don't want

754
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 4: to show, they would just say no. But it really

755
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 4: taught me how to think and analyze, and it went

756
00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 4: through every single thing I did under Berry Taken the

757
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 4: show about Aliens with Steven Spielberg went through the same

758
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,480
Speaker 4: kind of challenge and that became the number.

759
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 3: One show for sci fi. So I'm a huge believer.

760
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 4: In people being willing to hear stuff that might not

761
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 4: feel good at the moment. Sit back and listen and

762
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 4: take in what you can. Why are they saying it?

763
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 4: And you know, what are they saying and why are

764
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 4: they saying it? In ninety percent of the time because

765
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 4: somebody wants to hurt you or make you feel bad.

766
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,240
Speaker 4: Ninety percent of the time, if you're willing to listen,

767
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,200
Speaker 4: is because they want you to be better.

768
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 3: Right.

769
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 2: Well, the interesting thing about that story that you just

770
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 2: told as well, is that by him challenging you, you

771
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 2: actually had to own your truth about John Edwards and

772
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: the show even more, which then makes you more passionate

773
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 2: about the project. You want that to succeed, and we

774
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 2: really kind of can put our energy behind the things

775
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: that we believe in. I think once we're forced to

776
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: actually say it, but so often in our world we're

777
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 2: just moving and taking actions and not thinking about it

778
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 2: or being conscious of the whys, you know, And so

779
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,400
Speaker 2: you've forced you into really defining your whys, which is

780
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: only going to help you and the entire project.

781
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:49,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it did that with everything.

782
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, and would also listen to he would support you

783
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 4: if you thought it through. We had another issue with

784
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 4: scheduling this limited series called Taken, and it was the

785
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,760
Speaker 4: beginning of Dakota Fanning's career.

786
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 3: She was nine years old at the time, and.

787
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 4: It was a complicated but lovely only as Spielberg can do,

788
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 4: a twenty hour limited series about alien abduction, and it

789
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 4: was very heartwarming and right before the show was going

790
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 4: to air in December, and it was going to be

791
00:44:25,640 --> 00:44:29,640
Speaker 4: literally like the nineteen eighties limited series, and it was

792
00:44:29,680 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 4: before streaming, so it was you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,

793
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 4: two hours a night and then repeat the next week

794
00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,880
Speaker 4: and then we would take over the whole schedule. We

795
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,440
Speaker 4: would repeat the Monday show on Tuesday, the Tuesday show

796
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 4: would have Monday and Tuesday Wednesday would have Monday, Tuesday

797
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 4: Wednesday and we just took over the channel. So late

798
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 4: September the ad sales group came down on me and said,

799
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 4: we want you to air this as a regular series.

800
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 4: We can't sell it as a limited so do it

801
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 4: in January and have it be a weekly. And the

802
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 4: whole idea, the way the whole show is built, was

803
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 4: to be a nightly show that built over two weeks.

804
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 4: So I had to go back to Barry and I said, listen,

805
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 4: I'm getting a lot of pressure. You're going to hear it.

806
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 4: I don't want to just go ahead without your support.

807
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 4: This is what's going on. He goes, send me the

808
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 4: first episode. I said, okay, So I sent him the

809
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 4: first episode of the series that was going to start

810
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 4: in December. Boy, now January, and he wrote back, I

811
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 4: saved the eemail in like twenty four point type in

812
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 4: blue and orange, and it was I just remember this

813
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 4: to such a degree.

814
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 3: It's always stuck with me. Honey.

815
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 4: If all of your episodes are as gluly compelling, I

816
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:54,959
Speaker 4: think you have a hit on your hand.

817
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 3: Fuck them.

818
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 2: There you go.

819
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,120
Speaker 3: But he would he.

820
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 4: Would support what he believed if you believed in it,

821
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 4: but he would push you if your logic wasn't straight,

822
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 4: So to me get anybody, find someone who is going

823
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,440
Speaker 4: to challenge you and just go with it.

824
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,239
Speaker 3: They're not trying to hurt you. They're just trying to

825
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 3: make you better than you even think you can be.

826
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 2: Right, Well, if you're speaking as a mentor with your

827
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: book to all of these women in the world, what

828
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 2: do you want them to leave after they've read the book,

829
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 2: just knowing deep in their bones? What's your one truth?

830
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 3: Oh? My one truth would be.

831
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 4: Pretty much that you know, starting like with my dad,

832
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 4: there's no such word ascount and you can do anything

833
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 4: you want to do, be anything you want to be.

834
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 4: But it's just figuring out a way to navigate your

835
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:07,479
Speaker 4: way there and not letting anything get in the way.

836
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 4: And it's believing in the uncommon common sense as opposed

837
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 4: to the bs that you're going to hear from any others.

838
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 2: I love that the book is called fifteen lies women

839
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 2: are told at work and the truth we need to succeed, Bonnie.

840
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:22,919
Speaker 2: Where else can people find you?

841
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 4: We do have DANU can my assistant can get you now?

842
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 4: My assistant my manager.

843
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 3: These days we.

844
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 4: Have a site that has all the information and landing

845
00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 4: page that we will get to you and it's basically

846
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:43,839
Speaker 4: you know, Bonnie at bonniehammer dot com. But it has

847
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 4: all the information, podcasts, Arctic goals, all this stuff, and

848
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 4: I will make sure Dana gets that information to you

849
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 4: and you can post or do whatever you want with it.

850
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah, the website, okay, and I will put the

851
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 2: link of the description of the book. I'm sorry, the

852
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 2: link for the book in the description of this podcast

853
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 2: as well. For you guys. We'll get you all Bonnie's information.

854
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I learned so much. I'm going

855
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 2: to go back and listen to this and take notes

856
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: for myself. So it was very, very helpful, and I

857
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 2: really appreciate you sharing your experiences with us today and

858
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 2: it's my pleasure.

859
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 3: You are a delight to chat with and I look

860
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,400
Speaker 3: forward to more conversations. Thank you.

861
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 2: Thank you guys for listening.

862
00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:26,320
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Velvet's Edge podcast with Kelly Henderson,

863
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,000
Speaker 1: where we believe everyone has a little velvet in a

864
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: little edge. Subscribe for more conversations on life, style, beauty,

865
00:48:33,239 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: and relationships. Search Velvet's Edge wherever you get your podcasts.