WEBVTT - #063 Jason Flom and Ron Kuby with Shabaka Shakur 0:00:02.120 --> 0:00:03.680 I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:05.360 even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean. 0:00:05.640 --> 0:00:08.960 I was brought up with cops are the good guys. 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:11.640 I didn't know what was going to happen, but I 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.760 do know that everything was stacked against me. 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:17.320 Everything like everything. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:22.360 This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I 0:00:22.440 --> 0:00:24.479 know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:27.240 with this. How is this possible? 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.680 I grew up trusting systems. I've grew up believing that 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:34.280 every human being should do the right thing. And that's why, 0:00:34.360 --> 0:00:36.200 even though I knew I was dealing with corp people, 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:38.360 I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.080 of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:42.840 I break my way out of my wife's death. 0:00:44.360 --> 0:00:47.479 I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:50.120 prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me. 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:53.239 Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it has 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:55.480 come a little ways, but it's still broken. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.560 I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me. 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:18.679 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction with 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:24.119 Jason flamm that's me and today we have a very 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:28.600 interesting and unusual show planned for you. Our two guests 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:31.960 today are Shabaka Shakur, who served twenty seven years in 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:35.319 prison for a double murder that he had nothing to 0:01:35.400 --> 0:01:38.800 do with. And Chabaca. Welcome to the show. 0:01:39.200 --> 0:01:40.560 Thank you, thank you for having me. 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:45.880 And with him is his attorney, who has had a 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:50.120 very colorful history, to say the least. It's been involved 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:53.680 in some of the most controversial and interesting cases of 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:58.840 the last generation. And I'm really excited to hear from 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.600 you today. Ron Kooby, welcome to the show. 0:02:01.680 --> 0:02:01.960 Thank you. 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:05.200 Jason, Ponytail and all still there. He's still a hippy. 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:09.920 It's unbelievable. We got Ron who's got as much hair 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:13.120 as you can imagine, and Chabacca who's got absolutely none. 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:17.440 So I'm just giving everybody a visual, so thank you. 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:21.400 I want to mention quickly the fact that you are 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:24.120 a TV star now right you have your own show 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:24.880 on Stars. 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.720 I wouldn't go that far, but Stars is doing a 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:33.880 fantastic series called Wrong Man, directed and produced by Joe Berlinger, 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.639 who had been the Paradise Loss series, and basically they 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.560 take three cases of people all homicides around the country 0:02:40.600 --> 0:02:43.240 who claim they were innocent, have done many years in prison, 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:49.160 and they put resources into the case. They hire me 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:56.760 detective's former States attorney, Detroit homicide detective, FBI cold case consultant, 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:00.560 and they have us reinvestigate these cases scratch. 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:01.800 So they're doing this right. 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:05.520 They're absolutely right. They're providing the resources that defense lawyers 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:08.480 didn't have originally and most of us don't have now 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:12.240 to go through the case from the beginning and to 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:16.000 determine whether or not it indeed is the wrong Man. 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:21.840 Six episodes, three cases, One Question, Wrong Man on Stars 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:25.600 every Sunday night at nine pm and available for downloading 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:27.000 on these Stars. 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:29.200 App All right. Shout out to Jeff Hirsch, my friend 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.960 at Stars, and the whole crew and Joanna who's here. 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:34.800 That's the show that I'm going to be watching and 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.880 I hope everyone else will too, and I'm looking forward 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:44.160 to learning more about these cases. Thanks Shebaka. This story 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:49.480 is as terrifying as it is typical. And what I 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:51.160 mean by that, and we'll get into it, is that 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:54.400 you were a victim of someone who was detective who 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.520 was one of the most notorious detectives in terms of 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:00.600 framing people in the history of our country, the world. 0:04:01.400 --> 0:04:04.360 It's a very dubious distinction, and we'll get into all 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:10.080 of that, but let's go back to the beginning. Did 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:11.360 you grow up in Brooklyn? 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:16.320 Yes, I was born and raised in Brooklyn, lived most 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:21.080 of my earlier life in Brownsville and Bedford Stuvestant areas 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:22.160 of Brooklyn. 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:26.680 And Shabaka Shakur is not your birth name. 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:30.520 No, I was named after my father, Lou Holmes. 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:34.400 But going back to your childhood, so did you have 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:38.359 a traditional family situation. Was it a crazy neighborhood you 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:39.720 grew up in? Can you paint the picture, because this 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:41.080 was crazy times when you were growing up. 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:43.800 Yes, well, I lived in browns but I lived in 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:44.279 the projects. 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:46.440 I grew up in the projects, lived in the projects 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:50.200 mostly all my life. But I did have both my 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:53.200 mother and my father. You know, we lived in a 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:56.440 you know, I wasn't a single parent house or the 0:04:56.520 --> 0:04:59.560 normal you know routine that they try to say. I 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:04.320 had parents, I went to good schools, have brothers and sisters. 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.159 We were a solid family. 0:05:08.120 --> 0:05:12.960 So you grew up around this environment that's you know, 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.280 well known to anyone who's you know, familiar with New York. 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:19.839 And it's interesting because the time we live in now, 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:22.520 you know, contrary to what people would have you believe, 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:26.359 is a we're hitting historic lows in terms of crime rates. 0:05:26.839 --> 0:05:29.320 And I think that back then we were probably pretty 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:32.000 close to the high I'm a New Yorker born and bred, 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.159 so I remember it was, you know, it was well 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:38.480 known that this stuff was. It was crazy in those times. 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:47.159 And then one day in nineteen eighty eight, everything went haywire. 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:50.920 Your world got turned well, got turned completely upside down 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:53.279 sometime between eighty eight and eighty nine, right when you 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:57.760 were wrongfully convicted. But in nineteen eighty eight, there was 0:05:57.800 --> 0:05:59.720 a double murder in your neighborhood. And it was a 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:01.520 couple guys that you knew right right. 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:04.480 It was guys that I had known them for almost 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:06.520 a decade. I had went to school with one of them, 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:09.479 but I knew both of them. They were close friends 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:11.680 who hung out all together, so I met one through 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.760 the other. But Stephen Hewitt was a guy that I 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.000 went to high school with, and I knew him from 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.000 my first year in high school and we went through 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:24.440 high school together. And Fitzgerald Clark what we called c 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:29.440 was Steven's best friend and they lived in Flatbush, but 0:06:30.480 --> 0:06:33.720 we went to school downtown for a green area, and 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.120 we knew each other, so we hung out during school 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:38.280 and even after school. 0:06:38.760 --> 0:06:40.120 They were they were close friends of. 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:43.320 Mines and they were they were in the game. They 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:45.440 were yeah, drug game. 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:47.600 They were drug dealers. Uh. 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:50.200 At the time that we're talking about, this was during 0:06:50.279 --> 0:06:54.240 the crack academic So not only was it high in crime, 0:06:54.360 --> 0:06:58.800 but you know, the city was being devastated by crack 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:07.240 and there was a call for aggressive police because with 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:12.080 crack came not only the destruction of people physically from 0:07:12.120 --> 0:07:15.440 the drug, but also an increase of violence. You know, 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:20.040 Crack was one of the most lucrative drug trades at 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.600 the time, and people were killing for neighborhoods, you know. 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:26.480 Right. And it's interesting when we're going back to this 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.560 because I've spent you know, twenty five years working to 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:33.800 decriminalize drugs and you know, restore some sanity to our 0:07:33.880 --> 0:07:37.520 drug policy. And the only distinction I want to make 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:40.240 there is that crack didn't make people violent. The money 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:42.800 made people violence, right. They people who were committing the 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:45.080 violence weren't high, they were they were they were ones 0:07:45.120 --> 0:07:46.480 who weren't high. They were ones who wanted to get 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:49.560 everybody else high, and they were competing and fighting and 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:52.920 killing for the right to have that that income stream. 0:07:53.080 --> 0:07:56.000 So I just want to make that clear to our 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.040 audience who may not be as familiar, since it shows, 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:00.800 you know, we don't spend a lot of time talking 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:04.520 about drugs. But that being said, so these two guys 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:08.360 get murdered in what seems like it was a drug hit, right, yes, 0:08:09.040 --> 0:08:14.720 And how did they end up focusing on you? You know? 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:16.760 Was it just laziness? Was it? 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:21.320 Well, it was it was partly laziness and it was partly, 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:27.760 I would say, a tunnel vision by the police. Once 0:08:27.800 --> 0:08:31.360 I became a suspect, they they zeroed in on me 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:36.760 and they ignored everything else. So I knew these guys 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:44.040 and we had a really close relationship. So at that 0:08:44.200 --> 0:08:46.920 time I had driven one of them over to the 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.720 block where we were selling drugs and Gates Avenue and 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:53.439 in the Busherk section of Brooklyn, and we was having 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:57.280 a conversation about a car. So I was trying to 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:01.200 sell them my car because at the time I was 0:09:01.240 --> 0:09:05.679 working in Queen's Queen's County Register's department, and I was 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:10.040 trying to have a more calm life when I at 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:12.600 one point, to be honest with you, I was selling 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:16.600 drugs with them. You know what I'm saying. I needed money. 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:19.720 They they you know, came to me. They said, listen, 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:23.120 help us out with this, and I made runs. I 0:09:23.160 --> 0:09:25.040 did errane. I did do the work for them to 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:29.520 make money for myself. But it got to the point 0:09:29.559 --> 0:09:31.559 where I had a decent job. I really didn't want 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:33.040 to do it no more. I didn't want to take 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.760 a chance on going to prison, so I was backing 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:38.400 away from that. But I still had a good report 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:41.880 with them, So I went around there. I had met 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:43.520 a girl that I was dealing with that lived in 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:45.880 that neighborhood, so I went around there to where the 0:09:46.000 --> 0:09:51.160 drug spot was. Their brother who didn't live in New York, 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:56.640 who actually lived in Florida. He was the brother of 0:09:56.640 --> 0:10:00.560 Fitzgerald Clark, the guy that we used to call See and. 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:03.080 He was the older brother. He didn't know us, he 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:03.680 didn't know me. 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.800 He had just barely he had just met us because 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:10.760 he didn't live in New York. And he started becoming 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:14.800 involved in their drug trade, bringing drugs from Florida to 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:19.360 New York. So this is like one of the few 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:23.760 interactions that he had with with me personally. That night, 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:29.360 me and Steve had made an agreement about the car. 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:31.040 He wanted to buy my car. He was gonna give 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:34.319 me a certain amount of money. He wanted to give 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.840 me some money from their drug spot that night and 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:41.720 then owe me the rest. See who was his friend 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.320 and mins, But we used to always argue. We we just 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:47.240 had that type of relationship where we was always arguing 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:51.880 about everything, but not a violent relationship or aggressive relationship 0:10:51.880 --> 0:10:54.160 to each other. We just grew up together and we 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:59.040 was always on opposite sides of everything. So me and 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:06.120 him were arguing about the car, and SE's brother witnessed 0:11:06.120 --> 0:11:13.440 this argument. So later on, when she and Stephen were murdered, 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.559 his brother, recalling that I was arguing with his brother, 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:21.520 went to the police and implicated me in the murder, 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:23.360 and the police. 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:28.320 Arrested me, came and get me to take me to 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:29.760 the priest and to question me. 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:33.440 I answered all the questions, told him where I was, 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:35.760 told him I wasn't nowhere in Brooklyn at that time, 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:38.559 explained to him the whole situation. Gave him the name 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.600 of alibi witnesses that they could contact right there. They 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:47.560 contacted him that same night and verified my alibi. But 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.600 when they went to Detective Scarsella and said, we got 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:54.000 a guy that was pointed out by the brother of 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.160 the deceased, but the guy has an alibi and he's 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.760 saying he wasn't there, and we really don't have anything, 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:07.199 Scarcella took it upon himself to join into the interrogation 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.280 and then fabricated a confession against. 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:14.240 Me, right, and that's you know, it is interesting. You know, 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:18.720 you talk about how you had alibi witnesses, more than one. 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:23.439 There was no physical evidence connecting you to the crime. 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.920 They found the gun that was used, but it didn't 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:28.439 trace back to you in any way. There were no fingerprints, 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:30.920 there was no there was nothing for them to go on. 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:32.520 There's nothing to point the finger at you. But they 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:36.839 didn't care. And Scarcella, people who are fans of the 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.320 show listen to the show, have heard his name before 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:43.520 because we've had other exoneries on who were framed by 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:47.160 the same guy. And you know, Ron, this is where 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:49.440 I want to turn to you, because you have probably 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:53.280 as much experience as anyone in the country. Going after 0:12:54.920 --> 0:12:57.600 police who are on the wrong side of the law. 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:00.400 So I'd love to get your take on this part 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:04.320 of the story because obviously you have intimate knowledge of it, 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:08.120 as well as knowledge of the entire world of you 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:11.200 know that that blue wall, so to speak. 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:15.240 So I had first met Detective Scarcela in the nineteen 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:18.760 nineties when he was still working as a detective, still 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:22.959 doing the things that we know now that he did, 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.440 and I had cross examined him in a very high 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:30.760 profile case, which itself is now under no This was 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:36.360 the token booth bombing case. And he amazed me at 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:44.760 just how good he was at lying, how charming, how avuncular, 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:47.080 or how we would look at the jury and bond 0:13:47.080 --> 0:13:49.439 with them. And I knew he was lying because I 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:52.959 knew the facts of the particular case, but it didn't matter. 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:57.920 People really liked Luis Scarcela. Jurys liked him, Judges loved him. 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.280 Prosecutors thought he would, you know, the greatest thing on 0:14:01.320 --> 0:14:04.960 earth because he would literally make their cases. So I 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:07.920 had a lot of experience with him from that time 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:12.839 before he became famous in the public with the Rantic case. 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:15.960 Shabaka had written to me he had done his own 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:22.040 post conviction motion was all put together, and the singular 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.640 witness against him was the Scarcella confession. And this was 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:31.920 a remarkable confession because it was not witnessed by anybody else. 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:36.000 Scarcella was not the case detective. There was no audio 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.760 tape made, there was no video tape made, there was 0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:45.240 no signature of Sabacca's. The whole confession existed only out 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:49.320 of Scarcella's mouth, and it was almost a stereotypical conviction. 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.480 It started out, like so many of Scarcella's convictions did, 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:56.280 and the confessions he obtained, with a shout out to 0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:02.320 the cleverness of Scarcella. That is to say, in Shebacca's confession, 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:08.720 Scarcella had Shabacca saying, you know what's going on, you 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:13.440 know the story. Other cases, you got it right, I 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:17.120 was there, I mean this that. Phrases like that come 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:20.680 up in close to a dozen different cases. So the 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:25.560 confession always starts out with congratulations, mister detective, you're such 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:26.440 a smart guy. 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:27.640 You got me. 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:33.120 And in this case there was no corroboration, which is 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.760 unheard of, especially since Scarcella was not even the case detective. 0:15:37.000 --> 0:15:40.680 The case detective questioned Sheabaka for hours and all he 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.920 got was Shabacca's alibi, which by the way, proved to 0:15:44.000 --> 0:15:47.080 be completely correct. Eventually get him out of prison. Eventually 0:15:47.120 --> 0:15:50.720 comes you know, twenty eight years later though, And so 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:55.080 Scarcella walks into the cell and then walks out twenty 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:58.720 minutes later with this confession and didn't even call the 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:02.160 case detective and say, hey, hey, hey, detective, Mahoney, come 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:05.840 on in. This guy's got something to say. Nothing. It's 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:12.160 the only place this confession occurred. And the paperwork showed 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:15.720 that Scarcelo really wanted Mahoney, who was the case detective, 0:16:15.720 --> 0:16:18.200 to take responsibility for the confession. He was willing to 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:20.840 give it up. Mahoney could say that he got it. 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.640 Mahoney didn't trust it, so Mahoney wrote the statement down 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:29.600 but never attributed to anybody in any fashion, and that, 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.400 you know what we call the orphan statement, Like Mahoney 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:34.560 could remember where it came from. Who said that he 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:38.040 knows that Shebacca didn't say that to him, And that 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.280 was the key piece of evidence that got Shebacca convicted. 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:47.840 Let's go back to that conviction, because you were arrested, 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:51.840 I'm assuming on that day after Scarcela came in and 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:54.800 magically produced this confession in twenty minutes that this other 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:57.760 experienced detective couldn't get from you in hours and hours 0:16:57.760 --> 0:16:58.400 of questioning. 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:02.480 Well, I was The murder happened one night. The next day, 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:06.560 I was at work and they came to get me 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.360 at work to tell me that they wanted to take 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.080 me to the preescint to ask me questions. Now, of 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:14.440 course I didn't know about the murder at the time, 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:18.159 so I went to the precinct and I answered the 0:17:18.240 --> 0:17:20.880 questions because I didn't know what was going on. They 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:23.360 didn't take take me to the priest and say, oh, 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:25.280 we want to talk to you about a murder. They 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:26.960 just said we want to ask you some questions about 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:31.440 where you were last night. So I'm answering the questions 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:33.560 because I didn't want to get in trouble. 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:35.840 Were you thinking that they knew something about your past 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:37.040 drug stuff or. 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:40.720 On the way to the preescint, one of the cops 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.600 asked me if I owned a green BMW, which I 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:48.040 did right, So that was the car that I had 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:52.360 given to Steve the night before. So I knew who 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:55.800 had the car, and I know that they were drug dealers. 0:17:55.960 --> 0:17:58.040 So in my mind, I'm thinking, did they get caught 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:00.600 with drugs in the car? And now it's coming back 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:02.720 to me, you know, I'm trying to figure out what 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:06.040 it is, but I don't want to lie. So I'm 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:07.760 going to the priests, and when they're asking me, do 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:10.200 you know these guys, I'm saying, yeah, I know these guys. 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.320 Is this your car? I'm saying, yeah, that is my car. 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:16.679 But I didn't have my car last night. I wasn't 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.320 with them last night. I was in Queen's. I was 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.520 with this person. I was with that person. So I 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.960 didn't want to lie, but I'm telling them exactly where 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:28.960 I'm at so that they would realize that whatever happened, 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:30.560 I wasn't involved. 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:33.000 It wasn't until the. 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:36.520 End of nearly nearing the end of that conversation with 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:40.560 Detective Mahoney that he tells me about their murders. So 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:43.800 now I'm like, Okay, I don't know nothing about that. 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.600 I had nothing to do with nobody being murdered. I 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:49.680 already told you where I was, and that was the 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:53.880 gist of my conversation with Detective Mahoney. I had no 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.119 previous knowledge prior to him telling me about what was 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:02.600 going on when detectives Scott Sella came in, like Ron said, 0:19:02.680 --> 0:19:04.800 he had nothing to do with my case. He wasn't 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:08.520 assigned to my case. He was just in the prisint 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:14.320 And when he came in, they came to him and said, look, 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:17.240 we got a guy who was saying he wasn't there, 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:19.720 but he's the only suspect that we have. 0:19:20.600 --> 0:19:22.359 And remember I was like, I got this, I'll take 0:19:22.400 --> 0:19:24.280 care of this, right, And that's exactly. 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:24.280 What he did. 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:25.640 He came in and he said, okay. 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:28.159 I got it, I'll handle this, and he came in 0:19:28.200 --> 0:19:31.480 there to talk to me. But as soon as he 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:35.080 came in there, he came in there aggressively accusing me. 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:38.120 I know you did it. I know who you are. 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:40.760 You were selling drugs with these guys. These guys are 0:19:40.800 --> 0:19:45.240 drug dealers, all of y'all involved. You murdered them so 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:48.640 that you wouldn't have to share the block with them 0:19:48.760 --> 0:19:49.159 or whatever. 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:51.320 Right. So I looked at him and I said, you 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:52.280 know why, I don't even want. 0:19:52.119 --> 0:19:55.400 To talk to you, you know, and he got aggressive, 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:58.119 started banging on the table. I'm trying to help you, 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:01.399 but instead you're going to go up north for a 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:02.080 long time. 0:20:02.160 --> 0:20:03.760 You're going to go down for these murders. 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:10.160 So I was telling them, you know, very politely, go 0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:12.800 f yourself because I didn't want to deal with that, 0:20:13.680 --> 0:20:18.240 and he left. At that point, I had no idea 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:21.840 that he was going to fabricate a confession. I thought 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:24.720 that was the end of the conversation. I didn't even 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:29.040 know about the confession until I was arrested and I 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:33.880 was given a quarter pointed attorney and the quarter point 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:37.120 attorney tells me, you confessed, And I said, are you crazy? 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:39.439 I didn't confess. I told the people where I was, 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:42.520 I gave them the alibi witnesses. They verified my alibi witnesses, 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:45.240 and the quarter pointed said, yeah, that's what you told 0:20:45.240 --> 0:20:49.840 this detective, but you confessed to the other detective. And 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:53.440 that's when I realized that this guy had fabricated a confession. 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:55.800 And this is an important time to mention that the 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:59.920 confession is the most powerful evidence that there can be. 0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:06.600 It's really hard for any jury or jurist or juror, 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.240 I should say, it's hard for any juror to understand 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:12.359 why someone would confess to a crime they didn't commit. 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:15.280 And you know, as people listen to the show and 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:17.000 they hear these stories over and over again, they start 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:20.000 to understand many cases are coerse confessions. In your case, 0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:22.720 there was no confession. And let's not forget this. Scarcella 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:26.320 was a guy who used the same witness in six 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:30.560 different murder cases, who was a drug addict, part time prostitute. 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:33.199 I think who he was supplying with drugs and was 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.400 you know? And he was so lucky that she having 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:38.800 no witness six different murders. I mean, that's kind of 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:55.840 a miracle. I do want to take this opportunity because 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:58.760 Ron's here too, and maybe he can ask me this. 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:03.000 But I often tell people on the show, and Shabaka 0:22:03.200 --> 0:22:05.600 would have benefited from this advice. I think right that 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:08.840 if you get arrested for something you didn't do, and 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:11.840 you get taken in the only thing you should say 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:14.679 is your name, your address and I want a lawyer. 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:17.240 Would you agree with that without a doubt? 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:20.880 And whenever I debate with cops about this, I always say, 0:22:21.880 --> 0:22:25.119 let me ask you this. If your son called you 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:28.480 from a precinct and said, Dad, I've just been arrested. 0:22:28.480 --> 0:22:29.840 What should I do? What are you going to tell? 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:32.960 And the cops invariably say I said, don't say anything, 0:22:33.200 --> 0:22:35.840 We'll get you a lawyer. Don't say we're without a lawyer. 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.960 And we know that's true. Now, Shabaka had some experience 0:22:39.960 --> 0:22:43.040 in the criminal justice system, so and he knew he 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:48.440 didn't do anything, so he felt comfortable giving his alibi, 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:52.920 which was ultimately born out decades later, and he felt 0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:56.040 comfortable telling Scarcela, get the f out of here, I'm 0:22:56.040 --> 0:22:59.959 not going to talk to you. What nobody anticipated was 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:06.000 that Scarcella would simply make up a confession. So you've 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:10.040 got the made up confession. You have the brother of 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:15.080 the dead guy, originally telling a muddled story but thinking 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:18.520 Schabacca was involved. But through a period of time with Scarcela, 0:23:18.600 --> 0:23:19.480 his story. 0:23:19.320 --> 0:23:26.959 Changes, evolves, morphs, until he saw Shabaka shoot both of them, 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:29.520