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Speaker 1: Hello, welcome to the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast, where

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Speaker 1: we explore some of the big old money of the

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Speaker 1: shoes and world sports. And I'm Michael Laren, I'm Scarlet Folk.

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Speaker 1: And we have the founder, president and CEO of the

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Speaker 1: Fairfax Group and co founder of Transparency International, also a

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Speaker 1: former member of FIFA's Independent Governance Committee. Ladies and gentlemen,

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Speaker 1: put your hands together. Michael Hirshman, how are you, sir?

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Business of Sports. Well, thank you,

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Speaker 1: it's good to be with you. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: controversy over how exactly cut Or secured the World Cup,

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Speaker 1: given that it is not the most natural or obvious

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Speaker 1: uh host for an event like this, and there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff going on behind the scenes that very

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Speaker 1: few people actually see. I know that you are a

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Speaker 1: corruption investigator by trade. Can you give us a quick

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Speaker 1: summary of some of the low lights I don't want

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Speaker 1: to say highlights, but low lights when it comes to

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Speaker 1: suspicious things and how Cutter has secured this World Cup gig.

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to do that, but let me begin by

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Speaker 1: saying that, um, we're beyond the controversies at this point.

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Speaker 1: The fans that are attending the World Cup want to

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Speaker 1: see their favorite teams, They want to see their star players.

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Speaker 1: They want to see fairness on the on the pitch. Now,

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Speaker 1: going back in time, fairness on the pitch when there

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Speaker 1: was not quite fairness, and how this decision was made

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Speaker 1: is kind of a contrast, isn't it. Well, I'm about

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Speaker 1: to get to that, and I appreciate that question. Though. SIFA,

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Speaker 1: the leadership in FIFA created a culture of corruption that

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Speaker 1: surrounded the awarding of World Cup contracts, whether they be

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Speaker 1: host city contracts or media contracts, for years and years

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Speaker 1: and years before this particular bid ever happened. It was

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Speaker 1: the way of life at FIFA. That's why SIFA had

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Speaker 1: to be reformed. That's why the leadership had to be changed.

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Speaker 1: This is not about Qatar, nor was it about Russia.

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Speaker 1: Nor is it about US Mexico, Canada and how they

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Speaker 1: won the World Cup. It was about how FIFA behaved

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Speaker 1: in letting these contracts, in awarding these bids, and that

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Speaker 1: has been reformed. Michael. I completely agree with you, and

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Speaker 1: now is the time to look forward. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm getting reports and I'm seeing images here of you know,

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Speaker 1: shipping containers that have been retrofitted to serve as housing

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Speaker 1: and accommodation for the nearly sixty thou soccer fans to

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Speaker 1: view the view to view the World Cup. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing about queues of one to three hours long

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Speaker 1: to get a half a leader of Budweiser for twelve pounds.

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Speaker 1: I mean, my question for you is, did FIFA you know,

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Speaker 1: even though we've we've corrected, you know, the situation, you

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Speaker 1: know going forward? I mean, are we still about to

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Speaker 1: feel the impact of something that at least you know,

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Speaker 1: some of the pictures I'm saying equates to the fire

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Speaker 1: festival in the Mohammas with Billy McFarland. Uh. You know,

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Speaker 1: I hope that that's not going to be true or

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Speaker 1: isn't true. Um, Look, there's no perfect place to hold

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Speaker 1: the World Cup. Uh. If you're looking for perfection in

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Speaker 1: a country, you're gonna have to look on a on

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Speaker 1: a different planet, because every country that has held the

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Speaker 1: World Cup or will hold the World Cup has problems,

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Speaker 1: including the next World Cup US Mexico. We can we

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Speaker 1: can talk right now about security issues. The fact of

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Speaker 1: the matter is the guitarians are going to do the

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Speaker 1: best they can to try to expedite not only travel

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Speaker 1: to the World Cup, but shorten the lines. They have

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Speaker 1: built a multibillion dollar transportation system trains, buses, uh to

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Speaker 1: get people to the World Cup. And let's not forget

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Speaker 1: this will be the first World Cup where it's all

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Speaker 1: held around one city, where you don't have to get

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Speaker 1: on a train or a plane or a long bus

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Speaker 1: ride to get to see a game at a particular stadium.

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Speaker 1: So the advantages, I think outweigh the challenges. Let me

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Speaker 1: get down to a basic point. I want a beer.

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Speaker 1: I want to go to the game, and I want

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Speaker 1: to beer. Can I get a beer at the World Cup?

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Speaker 1: You will not be able to get a beer in

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Speaker 1: the stadium. You will be able to get a beer,

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Speaker 1: a Scotch, a run, a Peanut Colada if you want

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Speaker 1: outside of the stadium grounds, on a number of sites

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Speaker 1: that are available to fans, or at restaurants and bars

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Speaker 1: in the city, UH, particularly in the in the hotels.

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Speaker 1: What we would hope is that you don't have thirty

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Speaker 1: beers um and caused rockets because you guys, look, you

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Speaker 1: all know that, UH. Soccer fans. Football fans are emotional,

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Speaker 1: They love their teams. UH. They live and die by

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Speaker 1: the sport, and we've seen instances of unconsciousable behavior at

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Speaker 1: football games overseas, not only World Cup, but but Gold

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Speaker 1: Cup and other competitions. That's what I hope will be

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Speaker 1: avoided by limiting the intake at alcohol inside the stadiums.

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Speaker 1: In other words, folks drink responsively if you're going to

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Speaker 1: the game, period, so and don't And there's a reason

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Speaker 1: why in Philadelphia they agrees the light poles after the celebration.

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Speaker 1: Don't don't hop on a light pole. Folks, just take

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Speaker 1: your time and enjoy. Not a good idea, Michael, I

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Speaker 1: want to go back to something we discussed earlier. You

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Speaker 1: mentioned how FIFA is the root of the problem here.

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Speaker 1: What's a reaction to former FIFA headstep Ladder saying that

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Speaker 1: Cutter should not have been awarded the tournament even though

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Speaker 1: he was the one in charge when it occurred back

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Speaker 1: in I mean, it's kind of when I read the headline,

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Speaker 1: I almost couldn't believe of it. Well, you have to

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Speaker 1: understand why he said that. First of all, let me

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Speaker 1: begin by saying set Bladder is the one who created

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Speaker 1: in large parts of culture of corruption within FIFA. But

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Speaker 1: the reason he's saying that is he still believes if

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Speaker 1: Katar did not get the World cupped and it was

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Speaker 1: awarded to the USA, then USA prosecutional prosecuting authorities would

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Speaker 1: not have brought charges against FIFA and against the members

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Speaker 1: of FIFA. He doesn't understand the American system of justice.

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Speaker 1: He thinks that the Justice Parliament would have turned the

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Speaker 1: blind I to the level of corruption within FIFA if

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Speaker 1: the US had been awarded the games. That's why he

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Speaker 1: says it shouldn't have gone to Tar. Has nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with logistics, It has nothing to do with fairness.

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Speaker 1: It has to do with the fact that he finally

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Speaker 1: was was brought to justice in one way or another

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Speaker 1: because of his suspension uh from from football because of

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Speaker 1: his conduct in the conduct of the members of his

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Speaker 1: executive committee. So to see why a move so obviously

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Speaker 1: your expertise and security, Michael, I mean, talk to us,

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Speaker 1: what are the big security issues that pop out to

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Speaker 1: you if you're a foreigner visiting Cutter right now to

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Speaker 1: to to watch the World Cup. I mean, what's your

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Speaker 1: what's your visitors be mindful of? And just from a

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Speaker 1: logistical standpoint, what are the big security issues that come

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Speaker 1: to mind. Well, I appreciate that. So. I was the

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Speaker 1: CEO of the International Center for Sports UH Security in Doha,

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Speaker 1: which is an advisory group to UH, the Host Committee

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Speaker 1: UH in Dohar, the Supreme Committee. UM, we're not seeing

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Speaker 1: any international chroist threats. Our larger concern is cybersecurity and

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Speaker 1: crowd control. Now. Having said that, when you're holding or

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Speaker 1: hosting UH any sporting event, whether it be a Super

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Speaker 1: Bowl or World Series or World Cup, you've got to

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Speaker 1: be continually alert seven UH. In this case, just about

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Speaker 1: every country who's involved in the in the World Cup

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Speaker 1: has provided law enforcement in intelligence sources to a joint

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Speaker 1: command and control center in Doha, and security is a

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Speaker 1: number one priority. There are probably more cameras, for example,

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Speaker 1: in in and around the stadium and the fan villagers

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Speaker 1: and the fans side in Doha than they aren't all

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Speaker 1: of the city of London, and the city of London

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Speaker 1: is well known for having a lot of cameras. UM.

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Speaker 1: We have helped train that I c SS a number

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Speaker 1: of foreign security offices that will be deployed during the

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Speaker 1: World Cup, and UH not only trained them from a

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Speaker 1: security and safety standpoint, but from the standpoint of being

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Speaker 1: culturally attuned and bassadors to the crowds that are coming,

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Speaker 1: because you have people coming from well over a hundred

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Speaker 1: countries with different cultures, different beliefs, different behaviors. So it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a challenge. But given that that Qatar is

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Speaker 1: such a small country and we're dealing with sites so

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Speaker 1: close together, it makes it a little bit easier to

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Speaker 1: secure an event like this than one where you're having

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Speaker 1: to deal with multiple cities or frankly, multiple countries right

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Speaker 1: right where the U S. Mexico and Canada are each

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Speaker 1: going to be hosting. I mean, that must be a

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Speaker 1: logistical nightmare. That is going to be a security challenge,

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Speaker 1: no question about it. Forget about the visitors. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: about the players in their safety, right. I Mean what's

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Speaker 1: interesting to me is you're hearing these reports. I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously we know um you know uh Cutter is not

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Speaker 1: a big fan of of rights for l g B

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Speaker 1: T q UM And are we at all concerned for

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Speaker 1: Harry Kane, for England, for some of the players who

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Speaker 1: are using this stage as a way to you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of express their views. I don't think so. I Look,

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Speaker 1: the good news is that the sports can have such

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Speaker 1: a positive impact on change, and we have seen that

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Speaker 1: in Cutter. We have seen them UH institute new rules

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Speaker 1: governing the use of microd workers and and and helping

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Speaker 1: improve the environment for foreign workers. In Qatar, we have

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Speaker 1: seen a lot of good positive changes and that is

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Speaker 1: I think attributable to sports. And I always urge sports players, teams, federations, confederations,

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Speaker 1: whatever the entity is, to speak out for democracy, to

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Speaker 1: speak out for human rights, to speak out for civil

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Speaker 1: liberties and press feed of freedoms because sports can make

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Speaker 1: a change that Qatar has made it abundantly clear that

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Speaker 1: they don't care what race you are, they don't care

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Speaker 1: what religion you are, they don't care what your your

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Speaker 1: sexual uh orientation, orientation is. You're all welcome and they're

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Speaker 1: going to protect the rights of everyone who comes to

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Speaker 1: the World Cup. And this this is such sea change

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Speaker 1: in outlook in a country like Qatar. Now, look, it's

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Speaker 1: not only Qatar that has this culture. It's many other

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Speaker 1: countries in the Middle East. Us So Saudis, is the Amats,

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Speaker 1: it is the Karates, let's see UH the Omani's that

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Speaker 1: they're all going to being detained. Very close attention to

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Speaker 1: the changes in Qatar, and I think that's going to

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Speaker 1: lead to a much more progressive environment to output the

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Speaker 1: Middle East. I want to get into some of your background,

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Speaker 1: and this is for the young guns out there who

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Speaker 1: may not know all of the stuff that you have

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Speaker 1: done in your past. You served on the Senior staff

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Speaker 1: as an investigator for the Senate Watergate Committee, and I

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Speaker 1: want if you can and helping old Newsy take can

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Speaker 1: you take me back to that time and what it

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Speaker 1: was like during that time when you were going through

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Speaker 1: the Watergate investigation. It was scary. I was a deputy

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Speaker 1: Chief investigator for the Senate order Gate Committee. I had

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Speaker 1: had some years of experience, not too many years, but

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Speaker 1: a number of years experienced primately that in high level

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Speaker 1: corruption investigations. When I first got to Washington, though, I

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Speaker 1: really was asking myself at the very beginning, are we

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Speaker 1: really doing what's right for the country. We're going after

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Speaker 1: the president and as close as associates, what is it

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Speaker 1: going to do to the country. After about five or

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Speaker 1: six weeks of looking at evidence and facts that we're

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Speaker 1: building up, I had no doubt that we were doing

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Speaker 1: the white thing, because above all, the rule of law

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Speaker 1: was threatened. We were dealing with a group, a group

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Speaker 1: of a group of individuals, the earlic men's hall, the

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Speaker 1: men's and the presidents himself. That so what they were

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Speaker 1: above the law. This could resonate, by the way, in

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Speaker 1: terms of in terms of a in terms of a

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Speaker 1: more recent president. I remember seeing those on TV, and

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Speaker 1: I remember the John Dene moment where it, quite frankly,

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden he realizes that there are tapes

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Speaker 1: out there, and John Dene is like, for the for

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Speaker 1: the love of God, get the tapes, It's like, and

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Speaker 1: that changed the whole thing, the whole complexion of water game.

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Speaker 1: It was a simple question that was asked two h

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Speaker 1: Butterfields um and the response, thankfully, the response was an

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Speaker 1: honest response because we had that why why so many

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Speaker 1: people had good recollections of some of the things that happened.

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Speaker 1: And Butterfield was the one said, well, everything is recorded

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Speaker 1: in the old office, and that happened on a Friday,

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Speaker 1: and we had to keep that very very quiet until

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Speaker 1: the hearing is on Monday. But it it, indeed was

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Speaker 1: not only an eye oper, but it changed the game

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Speaker 1: in terms of investigation. I apologize everybody, but I'm an

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Speaker 1: old newsie. And just the background of what I couldn't

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Speaker 1: It was like it you're talking to a man who

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Speaker 1: has so much to offer in terms of information and knowledge,

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Speaker 1: and I just had to Okay, you can apologize, that's fine,

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Speaker 1: but you have to understand you're also speaking to a

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Speaker 1: sports not Yeah. Michael Ershman, founder president, CEO of the

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Speaker 1: Fairfax rout and co founder of Transparency International, and he

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Speaker 1: has so much to offer about soccer and FIFA, especially

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Speaker 1: with the World Cup. Michael Hershman, thank you so much,

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Speaker 1: sir for joining us on the Bloomberg Business of Sports. Well,

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Speaker 1: I appreciate and let me end this by saying, go

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Speaker 1: USA here this has Man the Bloomberg Business of Sports

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Speaker 1: podcast or we explore some of the big money issues

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Speaker 1: in the world of sports on Michael Barr, I'm Scarlet

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Speaker 1: and Damiens. And by the way, you can catch our

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Speaker 1: podcast every Monday, Wednesday and Thursday. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: you can download this show wherever you get your podcasts.