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Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I'm Katy Kuric, and this is next question

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Speaker 1: I'll never forget. The morning of April nineteenth, nineteen ninety five,

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Speaker 1: we had just wrapped up the Today Show when we

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Speaker 1: got word that the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City

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Speaker 1: had been bombed. We immediately started covering the story.

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Speaker 2: Good morning, You're looking at a live picture of what's

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Speaker 2: left of the federal building in Oklahoma City, the site

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Speaker 2: of the worst terrorist bombing to ever hit the United States.

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Speaker 2: As a result of the blast, at least thirty six

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Speaker 2: people are dead, hundreds are injured, one hundreds still unaccounted for. Today, Thursday,

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Speaker 2: April the twentieth, nineteen ninety five.

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Speaker 3: From NBC News. This is a special.

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Speaker 1: Edition of The building was in shambles, and I remember

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Speaker 1: my heart sinking when I heard there was a daycare

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Speaker 1: center on the premises.

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Speaker 2: And also to help this community recover. Katie, Good morning, Brian,

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Speaker 2: Good morning.

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Speaker 1: You know it's so horrifying to watch these pictures from Afar.

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Speaker 1: I can only imagine how difficult it is to be

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Speaker 1: there up close. We're going to be getting the very

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Speaker 1: latest from the White House this morning. We'll be hearing

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Speaker 1: from several survivors, including I'll also never forget the photo

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Speaker 1: of the firefighter carrying a bloodied, battered, yes deceased little girl.

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Speaker 1: She was just a toddler, one of nineteen kids who

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Speaker 1: were killed in the blast. I also actually went to

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma City and remember a makeshift memorial Teddy bears flowers

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Speaker 1: all covering a chain link fence. For days, weeks, even months,

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Speaker 1: we continue to cover the story because at the time

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Speaker 1: it was considered one of the deadliest acts on US

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Speaker 1: soil in history. But that's not what we thought at first.

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Speaker 1: In this half hour, we're going to be hearing from

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Speaker 1: a couple of experts on terrorism, both of whom say

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Speaker 1: the US government is not keeping up with the threat

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Speaker 1: posed by radical movements, and then later in the hour,

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Speaker 1: some of the heroes. So when I heard that Jeffrey

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Speaker 1: Tubin had written a new book called Homegrown, all about

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Speaker 1: Timothy McVeagh and the rise of right wing extremism, I

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Speaker 1: was anxious to talk to him. Jeffrey Tubin is a

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Speaker 1: terrific writer, and because he's a lawyer, he often focuses

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Speaker 1: on major cases. He's written nine books, everything from OJ

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Speaker 1: to Patricia Hurst. I was anxious to talk to him

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Speaker 1: to find out what has happened in the years since.

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Speaker 1: But we began our conversation with the discussion of who

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Speaker 1: people thought initially were responsible for the bomby, and those

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Speaker 1: were Middle Eastern extremists. I asked him why, and that's

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Speaker 1: how our conversation began.

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Speaker 3: Well, to answer that question, I give you two explanations.

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Speaker 3: One which is the more I guess the fairer one

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Speaker 3: is it had been a little more than two years

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Speaker 3: since the First World Trade Center bombing, and Ramsey Yusef,

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Speaker 3: the mastermind, had just been arrested in February of nineteen

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Speaker 3: ninety five, just you know, a little more than two

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Speaker 3: months before the Oklahoma City bombing, So the issue of

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Speaker 3: Islamic terrorism was very much in the mix. So that

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Speaker 3: is to me a kind of reasonable reason to at

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Speaker 3: least raise the possibility. The more sinister and disturbing explanation

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Speaker 3: is that it was a assumption that Americans couldn't do this,

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Speaker 3: and that this is just something Americans do not do,

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Speaker 3: and that was pernicious and wrong.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think the so called experts were in

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Speaker 1: such denial at the time that an American could do this?

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Speaker 3: Well, because I think this is a continuing pattern in

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Speaker 3: American life, and it is something that has gone on

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Speaker 3: with the Oklahoma City bombing, even after it's been convincingly

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Speaker 3: proved that Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols acted alone. There

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Speaker 3: is a political interest, especially on the American right, in

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Speaker 3: the right wing, to say that we don't do this,

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Speaker 3: that these kinds of acts are not us, and the

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Speaker 3: desire to push the responsibility onto Islamic terrorists as opposed

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Speaker 3: to the right wing Americans who did it. It's a

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Speaker 3: political act. I mean, it is an attempt to steer

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Speaker 3: responsibility away from political, if not allies, people who are

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Speaker 3: at least somewhat sympathetic to you. So it is a

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Speaker 3: bad thing that we tried to blame foreigners for acts

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Speaker 3: that very clearly are entirely native grown.

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Speaker 1: Your book is so well written and actually thrilling to

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Speaker 1: read in terms of the suspense and everything that transpired

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Speaker 1: before and after Oklahoma City. I'm curious why you decided

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Speaker 1: to write about this. What caught your eye or your

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Speaker 1: attension about Oklahoma City.

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Speaker 3: Well, sometimes when I've had book subjects, it's just sort

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Speaker 3: of evolved. This book arose from something very specific in

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Speaker 3: October of twenty twenty, the FBI arrested a number of

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Speaker 3: people in the conspiracy to kidnap Governor Whitmer of Michigan.

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Speaker 3: I started looking into that, and it became very clear

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Speaker 3: almost from the start that most of the perpetrators were

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Speaker 3: involved with the Michigan Militia. I had covered the McVeigh

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Speaker 3: in Nichols trials in nineteen ninety seven. I didn't go

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Speaker 3: to Oklahoma City when it was still you know, in ruins,

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Speaker 3: but I did cover the trial. So I knew the

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Speaker 3: facts and in a more detailed way than I know

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Speaker 3: most stories from that long ago. And I knew that

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Speaker 3: Terry Nichols and his brother James had been affiliated with

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Speaker 3: the Michigan militia, and so I thought to my said,

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Speaker 3: I know these people, I know what they believe and

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Speaker 3: any so I started working, you know, trying to figure

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Speaker 3: out what was going on there. It was only right

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Speaker 3: after the election January sixth, that, of course, January sixth happened,

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Speaker 3: and it was quite clear to me that the people

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Speaker 3: who were the co conspirators in the Whitmer kidnapping attempt

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Speaker 3: and the January sixth people were very similar. That in

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Speaker 3: turn reminded me that they were like McVeigh and Nichols.

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Speaker 3: So that story that the connection between McVeigh and Nichols

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Speaker 3: and what came you know, just recently, was really what

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Speaker 3: prompted me to write the book. And I found, much

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Speaker 3: to my surprise and delight, that there was this unbelievable

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Speaker 3: source of information at the Brisco Center at the University

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Speaker 3: of Texas that no one, almost no one had ever

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Speaker 3: looked at.

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Speaker 1: Jeff talk about this treasure trove of files donated by

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Speaker 1: mcveigh's lead attorney, a man I interviewed many, many times

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Speaker 1: because he did love the camera to the University of Texas.

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Speaker 1: So first of all, why did he donate them? And

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Speaker 1: how helpful were they in writing this book?

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Speaker 3: You know, Katie, I have spent my entire career covering

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Speaker 3: the law and often covering trials in the aftermath of trials,

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Speaker 3: and it was the ultimate dream come true to find

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Speaker 3: this archive. Stephen Jones was the lead attorney for Timothy McVeigh.

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Speaker 3: He assembled, at government expense and in enormous team of lawyers,

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Speaker 3: like a dozen lawyers investigators. They traveled all over the world,

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Speaker 3: and they interviewed their client multiple times, and as a result,

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Speaker 3: every time one of them interviewed their client, they would

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Speaker 3: write a memo about what McVeigh said and then send

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Speaker 3: it around to everyone. What Stephen Jones did, which I

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Speaker 3: had no idea about until I started looking into this,

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Speaker 3: is he donated everything, every scrap of paper in connection

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Speaker 3: with the McVeigh case to the Brisco Center at the

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Speaker 3: University of Texas. Now, if there are any lawyers listening,

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Speaker 3: the first question anybody says is, how can a lawyer

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Speaker 3: do this? What about attorney client privilege? What about client confidences?

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Speaker 3: What a client tells his lawyer is protected forever, and

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Speaker 3: that is true even if the client dies, as Timothy

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Speaker 3: McVeigh was executed in two thousand and one. How could

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Speaker 3: Jones have done this? Well, that's a question that I

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Speaker 3: put to him, and it's a question he's addressed in

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Speaker 3: various forms. And his view is that McVeigh, by attacking

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Speaker 3: Jones later after his conviction, effectively waived the attorney client privilege.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that's true. I don't think it's accurate.

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Speaker 1: But who would sue Jones anyway?

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Speaker 3: Well, that was the thing and fairness to Stephen Jones.

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Speaker 3: Another thing he has said is he realizes how important

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Speaker 3: this case was. But the answer to your question is,

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Speaker 3: I don't think he had the right to give this

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Speaker 3: stuff away. I don't think it was right. I thought

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Speaker 3: he was subject to discipline from the Bar Association. Hasn't happened.

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Speaker 3: But I don't think this is what a proper behavior

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Speaker 3: for a lawyer. Just but it's not my problem. But exactly,

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's why.

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Speaker 1: Are you the first author that really had, you know,

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Speaker 1: comb through these files. Because other people have written about

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Speaker 1: Timothy McVeigh.

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Speaker 3: I'm not the first person to have looked at any

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Speaker 3: of it. I don't know that it's ever been cited before.

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Speaker 3: I'm certainly the first person to look at it in detail,

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Speaker 3: and it's been there since the early two thousands, but

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Speaker 3: almost no one has looked at it as far as

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Speaker 3: I was aware.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to those days, Jeff, when you were

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Speaker 1: covering the McVeigh and Nichols trials in nineteen ninety seven,

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Speaker 1: you write that you quote failed to understand, much less

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Speaker 1: explain mcveigh's place in the broader slipstream of American history.

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Speaker 1: With the benefit of hindsight now and a re examination

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Speaker 1: of everything that happened before and after the Oklahoma City bombing.

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Speaker 1: How have you come to understand Timothy mcveay differently? You

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Speaker 1: must feel at this point you know him pretty intimately.

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Speaker 3: I do. I do, and I do feel that the

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Speaker 3: picture of him that I and others presented it wasn't

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Speaker 3: exactly inaccurate, but it was very much incomplete. The picture

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Speaker 3: that you got of Timothy McVeigh from my work, and

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Speaker 3: I think for most coverage in the mid nineties, was

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Speaker 3: of a lone eccentric, a lone wolf, someone who was

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Speaker 3: fueled by his own idiosyncratic grievances to do these terrible acts.

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Speaker 3: And what the documents that I found at the Brisco

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Speaker 3: Center and all of my reporting proved to me was

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Speaker 3: that's wrong is that Timothy mcveay was part of a movement.

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Speaker 3: A phrase you to this day often here about McVeigh

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Speaker 3: is that he was anti government. That's wrong. He was

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Speaker 3: not anti government. He was not an anarchist. He was

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Speaker 3: anti the government in power then Bill Clinton's government. He

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Speaker 3: was a right wing extremist. He was not an anarchist.

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Speaker 3: He was part of the movement of Newt Gingrich. He

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Speaker 3: was part of Rush Limbaugh's Dittohead audience. One of the

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Speaker 3: things he talked about with his lawyers often is that

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Speaker 3: as he went for these very long drives around the country,

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Speaker 3: whether he was going from his home near Buffalo, to

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Speaker 3: visiting Nichols in Michigan, to visiting his friend in Arizona,

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Speaker 3: to visiting the scene of Waco, or his sister in Florida,

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Speaker 3: these incredibly long drives, he was always listening to Rush Limbaugh.

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Speaker 3: I mean, he was part of the right wing movement

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Speaker 3: of the nineteen nineties. And one haunting thing he said

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Speaker 3: to his lawyers was, I knew there was an army

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Speaker 3: out there, an army out there of people like me,

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Speaker 3: but I never found it. And he didn't because he

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Speaker 3: didn't have the tools and just to get yet to

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Speaker 3: one of the larger points of the book, which is

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Speaker 3: the difference between McVeigh and January sixth, is the Internet

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Speaker 3: and social media. Because the people who wanted to kidnap

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Speaker 3: Governor Whitmer, they could find each other on Facebook, private chats.

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Speaker 3: If you look at the guy who shot up the walmart,

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Speaker 3: the guy who shot up the grocery store in Buffalo.

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Speaker 1: The Tree of Life, the Tree of.

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Speaker 3: Life guy in Pittsburgh, all of them were radicalized online

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Speaker 3: and McVeigh didn't have that, and he didn't have the

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Speaker 3: opportunity to find others even though he was looking.

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Speaker 1: When we come back, how the assault weapons band implemented

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety four may have pushed Timothy McVeigh over

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Speaker 1: the edge. If you want to get smarter every morning

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Speaker 1: with a breakdown of the news and fascinating takes on

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Speaker 1: health and wellness and pop culture, sign up for our

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Speaker 1: daily news wake up call by going to Katiecuric dot com.

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Speaker 1: And we're back. Tell us a little bit about Timothy

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Speaker 1: mcvay's personality because it was so long ago, and of

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Speaker 1: course his picture and his photograph loom large in my mind.

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Speaker 1: But you describe him, I think as a modern day

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Speaker 1: in cell in some ways. But tell us a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about him as a person.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's start with where he grew up outside Buffalo.

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Speaker 3: His father worked at a GM plant that made mostly

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Speaker 3: air conditioners for thirty years. His grandfather worked at the

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Speaker 3: same GM plant for thirty years. There was a stability

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Speaker 3: in that community that by the time tim was growing

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Speaker 3: up was gone. So this sense of economic location was

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Speaker 3: a big part of it. Also, his parents had a

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Speaker 3: unhappy marriage. And here here's where you know a lot

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Speaker 3: of people's parents have unhappy marriages, but here there's a

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Speaker 3: particularly distinctive fact that to me always seemed highly relevant.

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Speaker 3: In the family, there were two daughters and one son,

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Speaker 3: and McVeigh was in the middle. The mother kept moving

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Speaker 3: out during his teenage years, and every time she moved away,

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Speaker 3: she took the two daughters, but not tim And it

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Speaker 3: always seemed to me like a kind of Sophie's choice

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Speaker 3: situation where your mother doesn't pick you, and that I

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Speaker 3: think had a psychological impact on him, and the way

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Speaker 3: he talked about his mother with tremendous bitterness, that she

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Speaker 3: was a drunk and a slut, and who knows when

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Speaker 3: any of that was true, but that anger against women

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Speaker 3: came through in his later life. After high school, he

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Speaker 3: went to a business college for a while, didn't do

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Speaker 3: well there. He enlisted in the army. He was a

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Speaker 3: very good soldier, a very effective soldier, won a bronze

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Speaker 3: star in the First Gulf War. But when he came back,

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Speaker 3: he tried out for the Green Berets for special Forces,

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Speaker 3: and he bombed out of the test almost immediately, and

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Speaker 3: so in nineteen ninety one ninety two, that was when

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Speaker 3: his life sort of fell apart because he wasn't in

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Speaker 3: the military, he couldn't make a connection with a woman,

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Speaker 3: he had no financial prospects. There was nothing for him

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Speaker 3: in Buffalo, and that's when he turned to the political extremism.

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Speaker 1: A lot of depictions of McVeigh portray him as sort

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Speaker 1: of a freakish outsider, but you make the point that

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Speaker 1: his views were very much aligned was sort of mainstream

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Speaker 1: Republican doctrine at the time.

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Speaker 3: Right, That's right. I mean, it's important to remain sort

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Speaker 3: of what was going on in American politics at that point.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen ninety four, Nut Gingrich led America led the

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Speaker 3: Republicans with the Contract with America to a huge victory

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Speaker 3: in the midterm elections, where they retook the House, they

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Speaker 3: retook the Senate, and Bill Clinton was almost a marginal

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Speaker 3: figure in the lead up to the ninety four elections.

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Speaker 3: One of the ways Bill Clinton wanted to restore some

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Speaker 3: sort of political success was in September of nineteen ninety four,

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Speaker 3: he succeeded in getting Congress to pass the assault weapons

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Speaker 3: ban over furious Republican opposition. That was the act that

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Speaker 3: convinced McVeigh to conduct the bombing you know, I think

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Speaker 3: many people may remember that McVeigh was anguished and very

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Speaker 3: angry about the situation in Waco when the FBI raided

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Speaker 3: the Branch Davidian compound. Seventies six people were killed, and

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Speaker 3: that's true, But people forget how angry he was about

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Speaker 3: the assault weapons ban, which was a very conventional Republican view. Now,

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Speaker 3: obviously most Republicans did not engage in terrorism, but his

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Speaker 3: views were an exaggerated version of very conventional Republican views

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Speaker 3: of that era.

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Speaker 1: Let's listen to Bill Clinton as he's signing the assault

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Speaker 1: weapons ban on September thirteenth, nineteen ninety four.

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Speaker 4: This bill makes it illegal for juveniles to own handguns,

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Speaker 4: and yes, without eroding the rights of sportsmen and women

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Speaker 4: in this country, we will finally ban these assault weapons

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Speaker 4: from our street that have no purpose other than to kill.

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Speaker 3: Gosh, it could be yesterday. But when you see mcveigh's reaction,

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Speaker 3: and you see mcveigh's obsession with gun rights in the

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Speaker 3: Second Amendment, it is one of the clearest connections between

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Speaker 3: McVeigh and January sixth, twenty twenty one, that the fixation

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Speaker 3: of gun rights on the right is so intense and

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Speaker 3: so powerful and really bigger than any other issue, Bigger

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Speaker 3: than abortion, bigger than taxes. That's what the modern right

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Speaker 3: wing cares about, and it's what McVeigh cared about.

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Speaker 1: I remember hearing Chris Murphy of Connecticut, though, talking about

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Speaker 1: how guns have become a proxy for so much more

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Speaker 1: than just Second Amendment rights.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't agree more, which makes it all the more

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Speaker 3: important to people, because if you are saying to someone,

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Speaker 3: I want to eliminate your right to buy an AR fifteen,

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Speaker 3: you're not just talking about AR fifteen's You're talking about

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Speaker 3: an entire worldview. It becomes an existential threat to you

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Speaker 3: as a person, taking away your salt weapon. And that's

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Speaker 3: how McVeigh saw it, and that's how a lot of

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Speaker 3: people see it today.

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Speaker 1: You talk about Timothy mcvey's personality, but what about Terry Nichols,

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Speaker 1: He helped him build the bomb?

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 1: How did those two hook up? And you have Mike

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Speaker 1: Fortier as well.

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Speaker 3: The three of them met on the first day of

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Speaker 3: basic training when they all enlisted in the army in

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Speaker 3: nineteen eighty eight, But they were three very different figures

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Speaker 3: with some aspects in common. McVeigh was from outside Buffalo,

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Speaker 3: a land of industrial decline. Terry Nichols was from the

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Speaker 3: Thumb of Michigan, an area of agricultural decline. His family

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Speaker 3: were small farmers who just couldn't make it anymore, and

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Speaker 3: so in that respect, their lives were very parallel. Mike

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Speaker 3: Fortier was from a grim town called Kingman, Arizona, and

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Speaker 3: all he wanted to do was get high and was

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Speaker 3: different from the two of them, and was not actively

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Speaker 3: involved in the conspiracy. He knew about it, but he

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Speaker 3: did not participate in it. But Nichols is a very

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Speaker 3: different personality than McVeigh. McVeigh was an evil person. He

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Speaker 3: was also highly intelligent, effective, organized, resourceful, and really smart

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Speaker 3: in certain ways. Nichols was a screw up from day

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Speaker 3: one whose life cascaded from one failure to the next.

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Speaker 3: You know, he bombed out of his attempt to go

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Speaker 3: to college. He never really got a job. I mean,

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Speaker 3: he left to his own devices. Would never, I think,

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Speaker 3: have conducted the Oklahoma City bombing on his own, but

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Speaker 3: led by McVeigh, did participate in the conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: Mike Fortier ended up basically cooperating with the government.

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Speaker 3: He became the star witness for the government in its

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Speaker 3: case against McVeigh, and at one point they drove across

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Speaker 3: the country together and McVeigh took him to Oklahoma City

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Speaker 3: and said, look, this is where I'm going to set

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Speaker 3: off the bomb. The horror of Mike Fortyer's story is

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Speaker 3: that if he had gotten off his ass and made

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Speaker 3: one phone call to the FBI and said stop this guy,

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Speaker 3: because he's really going to do it, he could have

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Speaker 3: saved dozens and dozens of lives.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious how mcveigh's and Nichol's convictions galvanized the right wing.

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Speaker 1: He had a hard time, and of course he wasn't

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Speaker 1: a very charismatic person who could recruit other people. But

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Speaker 1: what impact did the trial and the conviction have on

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Speaker 1: this growing movement of right wing extremists in this country?

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Speaker 3: A tremendous effort to distance McVeigh from the movement. There

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Speaker 3: was a full congressional investigation in the later nineties led

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Speaker 3: by a congressman from from California and Dana Robacher, who

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Speaker 3: met I won't say manufactured, but used really bogus evidence

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Speaker 3: to suggest that Terry Nichols was really in league with

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Speaker 3: Islamic terrorists. It was, it was, It was ridiculous. But

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Speaker 3: I think it's it's it was part of the effort

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Speaker 3: that the right way on the right wing to say, well,

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Speaker 3: he really wasn't one of us.

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Speaker 1: Do you think anyone else was involved?

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Speaker 3: I don't. I you know, this is something I took

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Speaker 3: very seriously. Now on the left, Interestingly, just as there's

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Speaker 3: been an attempt on the right to distance McVeigh from

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Speaker 3: the right wing movement, there's been an attempt on the

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Speaker 3: left to associate McVeigh with the broader right wing movement

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Speaker 3: and to suggest that there were lots of people who

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Speaker 3: wanted to blow up the MURV building. There is absolutely

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Speaker 3: no evidence that I've seen that anyone was involved in

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Speaker 3: this bombing except McVeigh, Nichols, and Fortier in the sense

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Speaker 3: that he knew about it, even if he didn't participate.

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Speaker 1: You interviewed President Clinton for your book, and he told

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Speaker 1: you that he was almost immediately convinced that this was

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Speaker 1: homegrown terrorism.

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Speaker 3: This to me, was the most interesting reporting experience I

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Speaker 3: had when I was working on Homegrown, just because of

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Speaker 3: the order you do reporting, you know, you never know

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Speaker 3: exactly how it's going to unfold. I had interviewed several

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Speaker 3: people who were in the White House on April nineteenth,

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety five, and as you pointed out, a lot

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Speaker 3: of people on television were saying these were Islamic terrorists,

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Speaker 3: like the first World Trade Center bombing, and these were

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Speaker 3: people who were in the Oval Office with Clinton at

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Speaker 3: the time. And Clinton, of course didn't say this publicly.

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Speaker 3: He didn't want to prejudge the investigation. But he said

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Speaker 3: to them, this was not foreign, this was homegrown. These

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Speaker 3: were the militias. I know these people. And so when

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Speaker 3: I went to interview Clinton after talking to these other people,

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Speaker 3: I said to him, well, how did you know that

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Speaker 3: it was domestic when everybody was saying that it was foreign.

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Speaker 3: And he proceeded to tell me, you know, I knew

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Speaker 3: these people from Arkansas. And then he started reciting chapter

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Speaker 3: and verse of right wing extremism, including some very violent,

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Speaker 3: deadly stuff that he had dealt with in Arkansas when

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Speaker 3: he was governor. And meanwhile, I'm interviewing Bill Clinton in

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Speaker 3: twenty twenty two, and he is telling me about day

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Speaker 3: by day events in nineteen eighty three, eighty fourty five.

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Speaker 3: I went backed and checked it out. His memory was impeccable.

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Speaker 3: So it was fascinating to me that Clinton understood the anger,

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Speaker 3: the passion, the violence that was so evident in THEIA movement,

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Speaker 3: and he saw in the Oklahoma City bombing before the

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Speaker 3: experts did who was really behind it.

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Speaker 1: Fascinating and I sometimes think that the government doesn't get

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Speaker 1: enough credit. I mean, the way they handled the aftermath

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Speaker 1: of Oklahoma City, the fact that he was arrested Timothy

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Speaker 1: McVeigh what ninety minutes after the bombing by a very

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Speaker 1: alert state trooper who noticed his license plate was missing.

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Speaker 3: Right, there's a lot, there's some.

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Speaker 1: Was serendipitous and someone was just really good investigation.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, the FBI gets criticized for a lot,

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Speaker 3: and for good reason. They did a superlative job, and

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Speaker 3: Trooper Charlie Hager also did something amazing. But just to

401
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Speaker 3: remind people how this all unfolded, the bombing took place

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Speaker 3: at nine o two am on April nineteenth. It was

403
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Speaker 3: this horrible explosion and then two blocks away, something came

404
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Speaker 3: through the air and nearly crushed someone who was in

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Speaker 3: a Ford Fiesta right there. It was a truck axle,

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Speaker 3: and everybody could tell this came from very far away.

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Speaker 3: The axle had a ven number, a vehicle identification number

408
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Speaker 3: on it. It's traced to Rider Truck Rental. Rider says

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Speaker 3: that truck was rented in Junction City, Kansas by a

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Speaker 3: guy named Robert Kling three days earlier. FBI agents go,

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Speaker 3: they fan out over Junction City, Kansas. They go to

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Speaker 3: all the motels. They go to the Dreamland Motel, this

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Speaker 3: kind of sleazy motel right by the highway, and they

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Speaker 3: asked the proprietor and they say, has anybody been here

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Speaker 3: with a rider truck? And they say, yeah, a guy

416
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Speaker 3: parked a rider truck three days ago and he stayed here.

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Speaker 3: What was his name, Timothy McVeigh. And then they found

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Speaker 3: that that person had ordered Chinese food from the Hunam

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Speaker 3: restaurant on and he had ordered food from Room twenty

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Speaker 3: five because they had the phone records under the name

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Speaker 3: Robert Kling. So that's how they discovered that Robert Kling

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Speaker 3: and Timothy McVeigh were the same person. He used Timothy

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Speaker 3: McVeigh to rent the hotel room.

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Speaker 1: What a dope? Maybe a credit carding, No, no.

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Speaker 3: It was all cash. He was careless, he made a mistake.

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Speaker 3: And then the state the state trooper again the crazy coincidences.

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Speaker 3: Charlie Hanger, who I have to say, is like the

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Speaker 3: coolest guy in the world was. I interviewed him ninety

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Speaker 3: minutes after the bombing. He is he is pissed because

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Speaker 3: he wants to be sent to Oklahoma City where all

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Speaker 3: the action is, but they say, no, continue your regular patrols.

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Speaker 3: He sees a broken down old Mercury marquis driving north

433
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 3: away from Oklahoma City with no license plate. He pulls

434
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 3: the car over and as the guy gets out of

435
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 3: the car, the driver of this car he as his

436
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 3: jacket opens that he's carrying a gun, and he spins

437
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 3: him around and puts him against the car. You to

438
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 3: frisk him, and McVeigh says to him, you know that

439
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 3: gun's loaded, and Charlie Hager puts the gun to mcveay's

440
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 3: the base of mcveig's skull and says, so is mine,

441
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,680
Speaker 3: which is like the badass line of all time. I

442
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 3: just love that. Anyway, he brings him in because in

443
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 3: Oklahoma at that time, to carry an unregistered gun is

444
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 3: a crime. Let's fast forward to today, when the right

445
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 3: wing government of Oklahoma has ended that requirement. If Tim

446
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 3: McVeagh had been arrested today, Charlie Hager couldn't have arrested him.

447
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 3: All he could have done is give him a ticket

448
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 3: for having anno license plate, because it's legal now to

449
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:56,480
Speaker 3: carry an unlicensed gun in Oklahoma. They put mcveigh's name

450
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 3: in the database of people arrested, and they discover we

451
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 3: have this guy in custody in Oklahoma. They call the

452
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 3: courthouse in the jail and they say, do you have

453
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 3: a guy named Timothy McVeigh there. Yeah, we're about to

454
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 3: release him because it was such minor charges, and they

455
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 3: start screaming, don't release him, don't release him, and they

456
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 3: send a helicopter and that's how they get him.

457
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: I know the book has been often for a scripted series,

458
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: and it's pretty much writing myself right there.

459
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 3: So I hope so.

460
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: From my lips to God's ear when we come back.

461
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: How Bill Clinton's reaction to what happened in Oklahoma City

462
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 1: resurrected his presidency. Let's talk about the remarks Bill Clinton

463
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: delivered at the memorial service at the Oklahoma Fairgrounds. You

464
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 1: describe it as one of the most consequential of his presidency.

465
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: Let's take a listen.

466
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 6: You have lost too much, but you have not lost everything,

467
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 6: and you have certainly not lost America, or we will

468
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 6: stand with you, or as many.

469
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 3: Tomorrows as it takes.

470
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 6: To all my fellow Americans.

471
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 4: Beyond this hall, I say, one thing we owe those

472
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 4: who have sacrificed is the duty to purge ourselves of

473
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,520
Speaker 4: the dark forces which gave rise to this evil.

474
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: Why was it such an important address?

475
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 3: Well, you know, the national feeling of horror and outrage

476
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,719
Speaker 3: was was really profound. I mean, remember, this is nineteen

477
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 3: ninety five, it's before nine to eleven. There has really

478
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 3: never been an event like this in modern American history.

479
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 3: And Clinton, who you know, he wasn't a senator, he

480
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 3: was a governor. So he had done a lot of funerals,

481
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,719
Speaker 3: he had comforted people. And you know, the thing that

482
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,640
Speaker 3: many people to this day remember about Bill Clinton is

483
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 3: that he felt other people's pain. And in his speech

484
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 3: at the Oklahoma City Fairgrounds, you know, he really captured

485
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 3: that feeling of national sorrow and national purpose where he

486
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 3: really rose to the occasion. And after losing control of

487
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 3: the House and Senate in the previous midterms November, this

488
00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 3: is only five months later, this was really the beginning

489
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 3: of Bill Clinton's political resurrection, which continued into his reelection.

490
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 3: The following year.

491
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: You contrast Bill Clinton's handling of the bombings aftermath with

492
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: that of Merrick Garlands. Let's listen to now ag Garland

493
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: talking about his role during his confirmation hearings.

494
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 7: From nineteen ninety five to nineteen ninety seven. I supervised

495
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 7: the prosecution of the perpetrators of the bombing of the

496
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 7: Oklahoma City Federal Building, who sought to spark a revolution

497
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 7: that would topple the federal government. If confirmed, I will

498
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 7: supervise the prosecution of white supremacists and others who stormed

499
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 7: the Capitol on January sixth, a heinous attack that sought

500
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 7: to disrupt a cornerstone of our democracy, the peaceful transfer

501
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 7: of power to a newly elected government.

502
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: You recently wrote a piece for The New York Times

503
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: really comparing Merrick Garland's response and timeline after January sixth

504
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: to the way he dealt with the Oklahoma City bombing.

505
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 3: And again, you have to remember what was going on

506
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 3: at the same time. The Oklahoma City bombing is April

507
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 3: of nineteen ninety five. The OJ Simpson case is at

508
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 3: its peak of national obsession in that at that time,

509
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 3: on the April nineteenth, that's where I was I was

510
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 3: covering the O. J. Simpson case. Garland was repelled by

511
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 3: all the publicity and the way the prosecutors got so

512
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 3: much attention, and the way there was so much, you know,

513
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 3: craziness associated with OJ. He has this tremendous aversion to

514
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 3: publicity about legal matters. He thinks it should be dealt

515
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 3: with just just in the courtroom. In his role in

516
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety five and nineteen ninety seven, I can understand

517
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 3: that one ground for criticism I think of him in

518
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety seven is we need to hear more of

519
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 3: the Merrick Garland. From his confirmation hearings, he has essentially

520
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:07,840
Speaker 3: stopped talking about the investigation of January sixth. He says,

521
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 3: you know, you can get into trouble if you give

522
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 3: too much pre trial publicity. That's true only in the

523
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 3: most extreme cases. We have a situation now where Donald

524
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 3: Trump and much of the Republican Party is trying to

525
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,040
Speaker 3: revise the history of January six is trying to say

526
00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 3: these people are political prisoners, that what they did was

527
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 3: not was not so terrible. And Garland, with this aversion

528
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 3: to publicity, which was born in the OJ case in

529
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:42,839
Speaker 3: nineteen ninety five, is staying on the sidelines as a

530
00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 3: public figure, and I think that's a disappointment, but I

531
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 3: think it's also something that can be traced to what

532
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:50,280
Speaker 3: went on in the mid nineties.

533
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: He has an aversion to publicity but also to making

534
00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: a broader political statement, right with his cases.

535
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And you know, Bill Clinton, in addition to the

536
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 3: speech at the Oklahoma City Fairgrounds, which was not political,

537
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 3: he gave a series of speeches in the spring and

538
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 3: summer of nineteen ninety five where he was saying, look

539
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 3: at the violence in the language of people on talk

540
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 3: radio about politics today. And you know, Rush Limbaugh knew

541
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 3: who that was directed at, and he was all wounded innocence, like,

542
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 3: don't blame me. Neither one of them knew how right

543
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:36,840
Speaker 3: Clinton was. That McVeigh was inspired by Rush limbas style rhetoric,

544
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 3: and that is something that now, as Attorney General, Garland

545
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 3: could be saying, but he chooses not to.

546
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: In fact, we have some sound of Rush Limbaugh from

547
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: twenty ten trying to connect Bill Clinton and Janet Reno

548
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: to the Oklahoma City bombing and Waco. Let's listen to that.

549
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 5: Let me ask you a question, what was a more

550
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 5: likely cause of the Oklahoma City bombing, talk radio or

551
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 5: Bill Clinton and Janet Reno's hands on management of Waco,

552
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 5: the branch Davidian compound, and maybe to a lesser extent,

553
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 5: Ruby Ridge. Don't forget that the Oklahoma City bombing occurred

554
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 5: two years to the day after the Waco invasion. President

555
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 5: Clinton's ties to the domestic terrorism of Oklahoma City are tangible.

556
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 5: Talk radios ties are non existent.

557
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 3: Your reaction, Wow, I never heard that before. That's fascinating

558
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 3: I and perverse in the extreme, is that by supervising

559
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 3: the situation in Waco where tragically so many people died

560
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 3: seventy six people died, Bill Clinton should have known. Wrestling

561
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 3: bas says that that was going to lead to Timothy

562
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 3: mcveay's violence, which is so perverse and crazy that it's

563
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 3: even hard to know how to respond to it. But

564
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 3: it is indicative of how the right is trying to

565
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 3: distance themselves and have continued to try to distance themselves

566
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 3: from the fact that Timothy mcveay was a right wing

567
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 3: extremist at.

568
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: The same time. Didn't Waco fuel his actions?

569
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, And it is true that McVeigh chose the

570
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 3: date April nineteenth because it was the second anniversary of Waco,

571
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 3: but to turn that into it's the fault of the

572
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 3: people who were trying to deal with the situation in Waco.

573
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 3: And obviously it did not work out well and it

574
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 3: was not a good moment for the FBI. But the

575
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 3: idea that that somehow means they are responsible for Tim

576
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 3: mcvay's criminal act is perverse in the extreme.

577
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: Do you think Rush Limbaugh realize that Timothy McVeigh listened

578
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 1: to him non stop on these road trips.

579
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 3: I don't think he did, because, frankly, no one knew

580
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 3: how passionately McVeigh followed Limbaugh until I found the records

581
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 3: of it in his discussion of it in these in

582
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,240
Speaker 3: these papers at the Brisco Center at the University of Texas.

583
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,720
Speaker 1: I'm interested in what has galvanized the movement almost step

584
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 1: by step, leading to where it is today after nine

585
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:35,280
Speaker 1: to eleven our attention obviously turned overseas while we weren't looking,

586
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: was something the farious happening.

587
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 3: One of the things that really shocked me. I have

588
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 3: a long epilogue in Homegrown, which is which chronicles not

589
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 3: in a detailed way, but in a somewhat comprehensive way

590
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 3: right wing violence that has taken place during subsequent years.

591
00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 3: This is not lone wolf activity, even if individuals are

592
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 3: not working with others. It is a movement that uses

593
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 3: violence as a matter of course, and they are more

594
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 3: active when Democrats are in power than when Republicans are.

595
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: What is the state of sort of domestic terrorism today?

596
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 3: Well, in recent years moved largely to the form of

597
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 3: mass shootings as opposed to bombs. If you look at

598
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 3: many of the mass shootings, not all of them, but

599
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 3: many of them, whether it's shooting up the gay nightclub

600
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 3: in Orlando, or the Tree of Life Synagogue in Pittsburgh,

601
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 3: or the walmart in El Paso or grocery store in Buffalo.

602
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 3: These are right wing extremists who were radicalized by the Internet,

603
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 3: and it is easy in this country to get your

604
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 3: hands on a semi automatic weapon, an assault weapon like

605
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 3: AR fifteens, and so many of these shootings have been

606
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 3: with AR fifteens and other assault weapons. That's where the

607
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:19,200
Speaker 3: focus is in terms of law enforcement looking for it,

608
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:22,280
Speaker 3: but it's very hard when there are thousands and thousands

609
00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 3: of AR fifteens in circulation in this country. Right wing

610
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:31,319
Speaker 3: extremism is now largely conducted through assault weapons. Rather than

611
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 3: bombs like McVay. But the people are just as dead.

612
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 3: This is the world we live in. And you know,

613
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 3: one reason I wrote Homegrown is this story of nineteen

614
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 3: ninety five is a story of what's going on in

615
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:48,719
Speaker 3: the world in twenty twenty three.

616
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: In fact, you write that the events of January sixth,

617
00:41:52,160 --> 00:41:56,240
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one saw the full flowering of mcveag's legacy

618
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:01,280
Speaker 1: and contemporary politics. Let's listen to Alex Jones just before

619
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: the insurrection.

620
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,200
Speaker 7: Tomorrow is the right day.

621
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 8: We don't quietly take the election fraud. This will be

622
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 8: their waterloo, this will be their destruction, the global as

623
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 8: storie here the lordless.

624
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: One to play God.

625
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 8: They are not God. And the answered to their nineteen

626
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 8: eighty four.

627
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,919
Speaker 3: Is sobent seventy, such savent.

628
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 8: Souventy such sovent souventy six.

629
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,919
Speaker 3: Salvage the prologue to my book. The chapter is called

630
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,800
Speaker 3: seventeen seventy six. And one of the links between McVeigh

631
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 3: and Alex Jones and the ex insurrectionists is this weird

632
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 3: obsession with the founding fathers and the sense that our

633
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 3: rebellion against the federal government is just like our forefather's

634
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 3: rebellion against the British. Timothy McVeigh had memorized much of

635
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,839
Speaker 3: the Declaration of Independence. Most people don't know much about

636
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 3: the Declaration of Independence after the first famous opening. Much

637
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 3: of the Declaration of Independence is a justification for why

638
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 3: we were fighting the British, and this has become sort

639
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 3: of right wing code. Marjorie Taylor Green talks about the

640
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 3: Declaration of Independence and the duty to rebel against tyrants.

641
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 3: So when you think about the links between McVeigh and

642
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,360
Speaker 3: the January sixth people, it's not just a gun obsession,

643
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,920
Speaker 3: it's not just a belief in violence. It's an identification

644
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 3: with the American Revolution and a justification for their actions,

645
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 3: just like the people in seventeen seventy six.

646
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: It's hard to believe that in twenty twenty five it

647
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: will be the anniversary thirty year anniversary of the Oklahoma

648
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: City bombing. How do you assess those thirty years? I mean,

649
00:44:06,640 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: where are we now versus where we were then?

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Speaker 3: Well, I don't want to say something good came of it,

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00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 3: but you know, people of Oklahoma to this day they

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00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 3: talk about the Oklahoma standard, which is civic involvement that

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00:44:20,239 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 3: was part of the response and that is something that

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Speaker 3: is worth I don't think celebrating is the right word,

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Speaker 3: but at least recognizing. But you know, we are a

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Speaker 3: country on the negative side where right wing violence is

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00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 3: a persistent problem. It didn't start with Timothy mcveay, but

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Speaker 3: this attempt to sort of put McVeigh in a box

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Speaker 3: as someone who was an aberration. That's why I wrote Homegrown,

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00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:51,800
Speaker 3: to show that he was not an aberration and that

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Speaker 3: his legacy lives on in both people and ideas that

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Speaker 3: are pursuit.

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Speaker 1: Listen to this day, Jeff Tuban Homegrown, Timothy McVeigh and

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Speaker 1: the Rise of right Wing Extremism. It's a terrific book.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming in to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: Thanks Katie, thanks for listening everyone. If you have a

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Speaker 1: question for me or want to share your thoughts about

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Speaker 1: how you navigate this crazy world reach out. You can

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Speaker 1: leave a short message at six h nine five P

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Speaker 1: one two five five five, or you can send me

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00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 1: a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you.

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