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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, doctor Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com. While I hope you

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Speaker 1: love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is

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Speaker 1: not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for joining me for session three eighty nine of the

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into our

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Speaker 1: conversation afterword from our sponsors.

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Speaker 2: Hi, I'm doctor Pamela Iyoya Tonday, and I'm on the

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Speaker 2: Therapy for Black Girls Podcast. I'm in session today unpacking

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Speaker 2: being a Black woman Buddhist.

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Speaker 1: As we continue to explore the experiences of black women

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Speaker 1: from several religious backgrounds. This week, I'm in conversation with

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Speaker 1: doctor Pamela Ioya tune Day, who shares her journey of

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Speaker 1: becoming a practicing Buddhist doctor. Yetunda is a pastoral counselor

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Speaker 1: and the author of several books, including Casting Indra's Net

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Speaker 1: and The Forthcoming Dearly Beloved Prince Spirituality in This Thing

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Speaker 1: Called Life. Io is also the co editor of the

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Speaker 1: Nautilus's Book award winning anthology Black and Buddhist What Buddhism

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Speaker 1: Can teach Us about Race, Resilience, transformation and Freedom. Our

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Speaker 1: conversation we explored some of the basic principles of Buddhism,

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Speaker 1: how Buddhism as a philosophy can inform our practice of

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Speaker 1: other religions, and the significance of mindfulness activities such as

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Speaker 1: yoga and meditation within Buddhism. If something resonates with you

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Speaker 1: while enjoying our conversation, please share with us on social

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Speaker 1: media using the hashtag TVG in Session or join us

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Speaker 1: over in the Sister Circle To talk more about the episode.

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Speaker 1: You can join us at Community dot Therapy from Blackgirls

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Speaker 1: dot com. Here's our conversation, Aiyo, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for the invitation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited to chat with you, So I wonder

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Speaker 1: if you could get us started by telling us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about your journey of discovering Buddhism. How long

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Speaker 1: have you been practicing and what are some of the

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Speaker 1: most interesting things that you've learned.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I'll say that I grew up in the

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Speaker 2: United Methodist Church. I was introduced to Buddhist thought about

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Speaker 2: a month after or the bombing of the World Trade

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Speaker 2: Center because I had asked my friends to give me

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Speaker 2: peace of mind for my fortieth birthday and a friend

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Speaker 2: gave me a copy of a book by Tick mat

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Speaker 2: Hank called Touching Peace, and that was my introduction And

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Speaker 2: one of the things that I've learned from Buddhism. And

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Speaker 2: there are many things I would say. One of the

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Speaker 2: things is about self compassion, being gentle with oneself. Now

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Speaker 2: I said one thing, but all of these things are related.

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Speaker 2: I am basically good and if I can remember that,

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Speaker 2: that will inform my decisions from that point forward.

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Speaker 1: Oh I love that. So there are so many places

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Speaker 1: I feel like we're going to go with this conversation.

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Speaker 2: IYO.

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Speaker 1: But I'm curious. So you've got this book as a

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Speaker 1: part of you know, you asking for this peace of

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Speaker 1: mind following this, of course, very traumatic event, and did

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Speaker 1: you immediately know Okay, this is what I'm going to

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Speaker 1: start practicing. What was the journey like after you got

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Speaker 1: that book.

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Speaker 2: Well, I wanted peace of mind so bad I was

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Speaker 2: desperate for it that I was willing to try just

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Speaker 2: about anything that I thought would be healthy. So the

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Speaker 2: short meditation exercise at the beginning of the book goes

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Speaker 2: something like this, breathing in, I know that I am

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Speaker 2: breathing in, breathing out. I know that I am breathing out,

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Speaker 2: in out, breathing in. I see myself as a flower

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Speaker 2: breathing out. I feel fresh, flower fresh. And then it

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Speaker 2: goes round like that, imagining oneself as a mountain, imagining

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Speaker 2: oneself as a stream. And after that short exercise, I

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Speaker 2: felt settled, and I was settling, and so one thing

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Speaker 2: led to another. Also, right around the same time, I

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Speaker 2: began volunteering with Zen Hospice Project, because for years I

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Speaker 2: had wanted to be a hospice volunteer. So it was

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Speaker 2: a very powerful combination of reading about Buddhism, practicing guided

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Speaker 2: meditations and visualizations, and being in service to dying people.

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Speaker 1: So for people who may not be familiar, can you

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Speaker 1: talk with us about some of the guiding principles of Buddhism.

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Speaker 2: One of the guiding principles is compassion. If you hear

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Speaker 2: anything about Buddhism, no matter where the Buddhism comes from,

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Speaker 2: no matter what the country is or the particular strand

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Speaker 2: or lineage or school of Buddhism, compassion is going to

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Speaker 2: be at the center and the heart of that school

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Speaker 2: of thought. So compassion, loving kindness, equanimity or balance, sympathetic joy,

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Speaker 2: in other words, rejoicing in the joy and successes of

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Speaker 2: other people. These are core principles that you'll find throughout Buddhism,

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Speaker 2: as well as practicing mindfulness and meditation and chanting. Life

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Speaker 2: is hard. Life is really hard. And in order to

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Speaker 2: make it in this life, and to make it in

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Speaker 2: such a way that you're actually contributing in a beneficial way,

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Speaker 2: you need to be disciplined, right. You need to discipline

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Speaker 2: your mind, your body, your thoughts, your behaviors, the words

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Speaker 2: that come out of your mouth, and in doing these things.

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Speaker 2: The great thing about doing these things is that when

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Speaker 2: you do them, and do them well and do them frequently, generally,

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Speaker 2: you don't get a lot of negativity coming back your way,

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Speaker 2: because people have nothing to negatively react to, generally speaking.

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Speaker 2: And so I think that people can find the benefit

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Speaker 2: of practicing Buddhism pretty quickly. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, I mean some of the things that you've mentioned,

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Speaker 1: I feel like have taken on a kind of life

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Speaker 1: of their own, even outside of people who are practicing Buddhism.

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Speaker 1: So we hear a lot of like terms in just

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Speaker 1: general culture that I wonder if you could explain to

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Speaker 1: us a little bit more. So we've already talked a

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Speaker 1: little bit about meditation, but can you say more about

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Speaker 1: what meditation is?

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Speaker 2: Yes, So, meditation is turning one's attention to object over

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Speaker 2: and over again. The purpose of doing that is to

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Speaker 2: learn how to concentrate. In the world that we're living

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Speaker 2: in now, our attention is being scattered all over the place,

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Speaker 2: can hardly focus, and so there is a benefit to

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Speaker 2: being able to focus on something, and meditation helps us

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Speaker 2: be better at focusing on something. When we focus on something,

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Speaker 2: then we can be more intimate with that, we can

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Speaker 2: be more at peace. And that is the purpose of meditation.

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Speaker 2: And there are countless ways to meditate.

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Speaker 1: Got it? What about the lotus flower?

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Speaker 2: The lotus flower in the mud represents one that life

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Speaker 2: is full of messiness and beauty. You know, the messiness

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Speaker 2: being the mud, The flower being the beauty. It also

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Speaker 2: represents that beauty comes from the mud. So when one

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Speaker 2: things you know, I mess or I'm nasty, or I'm ugly,

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Speaker 2: or I'm unworthy and all that. In Buddhism, they would

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Speaker 2: be taught, okay, great, use all that belief about your unworthiness, nastiness,

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Speaker 2: what have you, and use it as medicine to grow

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Speaker 2: the lotus. Because the lotus grows in the mud. The

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Speaker 2: seeds of beauty are in what you think is ugly,

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Speaker 2: so nurture that. And also the lotus and the mud

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Speaker 2: represent nonduality. You can't separate one from the other, so

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Speaker 2: try not to separate that internally or externally. Try to

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Speaker 2: cultivate a mind that accepts all and understand how they

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Speaker 2: enter are. In other words, compost right is the garbage

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Speaker 2: that gives life to the beauty?

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Speaker 1: Got it? Got it? What about the dormal wheel?

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Speaker 2: The dharma wheel represents the noble eightfold path. So it

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Speaker 2: is said in Buddhism in many schools and lineages of Buddhism,

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Speaker 2: that healing comes from the four noble truths, the first

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Speaker 2: truth being there is suffering, the second truth being there

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Speaker 2: are causes for suffering, The third noble truth is suffering

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Speaker 2: can be eliminated or it can be diminished or mitigated

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Speaker 2: or healed. And then the will represents the eight spokes

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Speaker 2: of the noble eightfold path that one could visit. Some

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Speaker 2: of the things on the noble eightfold path include how

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Speaker 2: you look at life all phenomena and that would be

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Speaker 2: considered right view. How you pay attention, that's right mindfulness,

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Speaker 2: right concentration, how you meditate, right action. What are your

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Speaker 2: behaviors that contribute to beneficial outcomes? Right livelihood. There is

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Speaker 2: an impact on everything we do, and if you're making

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Speaker 2: money in a way that hurts people, then there's a

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Speaker 2: very strong likelihood that you're going to create negative karma,

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Speaker 2: not only for yourself but for others. So that's what

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Speaker 2: the will represents. And the suggestion is it has to

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Speaker 2: be turned in a certain way that you have to

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Speaker 2: start at one point and then go around the will

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Speaker 2: in clockwise fashion. You can enter this will at any point.

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Speaker 2: You may say, oh, right speech for me. For me,

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Speaker 2: I grew up hearing that it's just best to just

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Speaker 2: get off your chest say whatever you want to say

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Speaker 2: to people, regardless of the impact. Through Buddhism, I've learned

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Speaker 2: that actually I would prefer to give some thought, be

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Speaker 2: mindful about my thoughts about what I'm about to say,

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Speaker 2: so that I say it in a way that it's

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Speaker 2: not harmful and produces good and that's called right speech.

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Speaker 1: And can you say a little bit more about karma

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Speaker 1: as you understand it from Buddhist teachings.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So karma is meant in many ways. One of

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Speaker 2: the ways it's meant is that if you do something,

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Speaker 2: or even if you think something, there's going to be

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Speaker 2: an impact, and something is going to impact you as

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Speaker 2: a result of the things that you say, think and do.

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Speaker 2: But karma also has a cosmic quality to it as well.

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Speaker 2: That is beyond our understanding that there are things that happen,

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Speaker 2: there are causes and conditions for all phenomena, and sometimes

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Speaker 2: we don't know why something has landed on us. It

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Speaker 2: could be karma from past generations or in the cosmos,

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Speaker 2: but basically cause and effect, that's what karma is. Generally speaking.

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Speaker 2: Typically we don't practice Buddhism and understand karma as we

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Speaker 2: do in order to get something back right, it's not

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Speaker 2: in exchange. It's more for the joy of living a

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Speaker 2: blameless life. So you don't have to go to bed

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Speaker 2: word about oh are they gonna come back and get

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Speaker 2: me because I did XYZ. But it's more from a

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Speaker 2: heart of generosity that we practice the way we do

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Speaker 2: with the philosophies around karma and the understanding of karma.

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Speaker 1: Got it okay? Can you say something about the Buddha?

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Speaker 1: So we I think sometimes see statues, we see the

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Speaker 1: Buddha depicted as a part of Buddhist teachings. Can you

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Speaker 1: talk to us about what that means?

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Speaker 2: Right? There are Buddhist statues in our culture, and for

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Speaker 2: some people they revere the Buddha as a deity, as

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Speaker 2: a god like figure. For some people, the Buddha is

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Speaker 2: a historical figure. In either case, historical or cosmic, the

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Speaker 2: Buddha represents one's capacity for awakening. And if you travel

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Speaker 2: outside the United States, actually don't have to travel outside

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Speaker 2: the United States to see massive statues of Buddhas. They're huge.

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Speaker 2: And when you see something like that, usually the Buddha

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Speaker 2: is in a sitting position in meditation or lying on

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Speaker 2: his side, which is just moments before his death. What

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Speaker 2: these statues represent is peace of mind, peace of body, equanimity,

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Speaker 2: equipose and serenity and to remind us that we also

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Speaker 2: have the ability and the quality of peacefulness.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if you could talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: because they sell these statues all over the place, and

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Speaker 1: I think most people think about like a Nike quality

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Speaker 1: and like a meditative thing. Is there anything wrong or

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Speaker 1: should people be concerned about like just buying these statues

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Speaker 1: if they aren't necessarily like practicing as a Buddhist.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, I don't think there's any reason to be

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Speaker 2: concerned about that now because pretty much now it's just

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Speaker 2: part of our culture. It says something not necessarily about

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Speaker 2: one's religious beliefs, but about one's aspiration to be at peace.

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Speaker 1: Got it. And finally, I wonder if you could talk

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Speaker 1: about the role of chanting.

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Speaker 2: The role of chanting is similar to the role of

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Speaker 2: prayer and similar to the role of meditation, and also

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Speaker 2: I would say, similar to the role of yoga. That

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Speaker 2: these practices are meant to bring people into a concentrated

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Speaker 2: state of mind, a prayerful state of mind where you

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Speaker 2: are reciting. It could be I won't say anything, but

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Speaker 2: their variety of chants chanting on the nature of the cosmos.

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Speaker 2: The point is whatever it is that you're chanting on.

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Speaker 2: It releases you from the work of making your personality.

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Speaker 2: So you're not engaged in discursive thought, you're not engaged

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Speaker 2: in conversation with others. You are repeating a phrase that

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Speaker 2: release you from the burdens of personality making. And it's

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Speaker 2: said that when you get into that concentrative state of

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Speaker 2: mind through chanting, you are merging with all that is.

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Speaker 1: So would you say that chanting is similar to like affirmations.

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Speaker 2: I think a chant can be similar to an affirmation,

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Speaker 2: But as I understand affirmations, generally speaking, affirmations are about

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Speaker 2: reciting positive words about one's self, and chanting in Buddhism

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Speaker 2: usually is not about chanting positive affirmations about oneself, but

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Speaker 2: about chanting on the nature of reality, which then when

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Speaker 2: you get in that particular state of mind, you are

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Speaker 2: merged with that reality. You actualize that you are not

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Speaker 2: separate from that reality.

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Speaker 1: I know, I'm wondering because you talked about being raised

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Speaker 1: as a part of the United Methodist Church, and all

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Speaker 1: of the things that you are describing in terms of

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Speaker 1: like compassion and putting out good thing so that good

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Speaker 1: things come back to you, kind of thing like that

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Speaker 1: To me, does not seem drastically different from what I

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Speaker 1: think Christianity is supposed to a theory, be right. Yet

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Speaker 1: I think sometimes when people find people who are practicing

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Speaker 1: Buddhists or who are like living Buddhist principles, it feels

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Speaker 1: like there is this oh my gosh, what are you

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Speaker 1: worshiping kind of thing. And I don't know if some

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Speaker 1: of it is because of like the Buddha figurine or

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Speaker 1: statue and people see that as a deity. Although you

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Speaker 1: said some people, right, so it doesn't even sound like

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Speaker 1: Buddha is a deity, so to speak, in your religion,

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Speaker 1: can you talk about maybe some of the misconceptions and

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Speaker 1: maybe like some of the things that you have noticed

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Speaker 1: that are different from practicing as a Buddhist versus your

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Speaker 1: time in the United Methodist Church.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so there's a lot there, Doctor Jordan, I know. Okay,

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Speaker 2: so let me see I want to go back for

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Speaker 2: a moment and say, Buddhism sounds very similar to Christianity.

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Speaker 2: I think it is. I think that's the reason why

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Speaker 2: many Christians practice Buddhism. First of all, Buddhism can be

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Speaker 2: a religion, but it need not be a religion. It

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Speaker 2: can be a way of life. Some say it was

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Speaker 2: a way of life before people made it a religion.

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Speaker 2: So philosophy, it's a set of ethics, it's a psychology.

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Speaker 2: So people are attracted to different parts of Buddhism for

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Speaker 2: different reasons. So you can be a Christian in practice Buddhism.

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Speaker 2: And the Christians who I know who practice Buddhism do

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Speaker 2: it because they said it helps them be a better Christian.

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Speaker 2: It's broken down, right, the practices, the philosophies are broken

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Speaker 2: down so that we know how to love, we know

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Speaker 2: how to be compassionate, we know how to be generous.

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Speaker 2: These are like formulas, if you will, in Buddhism that

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Speaker 2: helps support the Christian life.

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Speaker 1: Got it? Okay? I appreciate you sharing that distinction because

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Speaker 1: I was assuming that it was more like the religion

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Speaker 1: is kind of practicing, but it can be all of

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Speaker 1: these other things. Like you said, the psychology a way

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Speaker 1: of life, a way of helping you to live out

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Speaker 1: even different religions in a better way.

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Speaker 2: Or in a deeper way. Because if I say better

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Speaker 2: as of a comparison, and I don't want to do that,

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Speaker 2: maybe just enriching and in dialogue, these traditions should be

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Speaker 2: enriching one another. What can Buddhists learn from Christians, Muslims, Jews, six,

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Speaker 2: and so on. A lot.

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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, but first a

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Speaker 1: quick snippet of what's coming up next week on TVG.

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Speaker 3: So, when we talk about retrograde, since Jupiter is the

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Speaker 3: planet of growth and opportunity in abundance, retrogrades are periods

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Speaker 3: of reflection. As you mentioned, it's a good time to

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Speaker 3: reflect on what you already have. So instead of trying

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Speaker 3: to add more to your plate or add more into

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Speaker 3: your life, it's a good time to reflect on what

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Speaker 3: you already have. Sometimes I think about Jupiter as a

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Speaker 3: planet that is also connected to gratitude, and I think

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Speaker 3: sometimes we can get caught up in this idea I

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Speaker 3: need more, I need to add, I need to keep

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Speaker 3: growing and pushing, which can sometimes rob us or oftentimes

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Speaker 3: rob us of our ability to appreciate what we already have.

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Speaker 3: And so I think when we talk about the Jupiter retrograde,

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Speaker 3: it's a good time to practice gratitude. So I wonder

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Speaker 3: if you could talk a little bit about maybe some

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Speaker 3: of the more well known or high profile black women

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Speaker 3: Buddhists that you've become aware of.

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Speaker 2: What do you want me to say about them?

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Speaker 1: I know so many well, just who they are, because

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Speaker 1: I think people might be surprised about people who practice

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Speaker 1: in these ways are learned about. Okay, right, there's so many,

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Speaker 1: and I'm hesitant because I'm going to forget something.

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Speaker 2: So please forgive me for my friends. If you hear this,

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Speaker 2: please forgive me if I don't mention your name. Okay.

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Speaker 2: So some of the more high profile ones would be

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Speaker 2: the ones who've written, right, so Jan Willis, Reverend Angel,

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Speaker 2: Kyoto Williams, Kate Johnson, Zenju, Earthline Manual. Oh, and then

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Speaker 2: Ruth King. How could I forgotten Ruth King? Oh my gosh,

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Speaker 2: Lama Rod Owens, Lama Rod, if you're listening to this,

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Speaker 2: forgive me. I was thinking about women. I'm so sorry.

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Speaker 2: Lamar Rod is one of the most well known Black

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Speaker 2: Buddhist writers today, and just more and more are coming

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Speaker 2: out all the time. So it's an exciting time.

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Speaker 1: Okay. So that gives people a good starting place that

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Speaker 1: will likely lead them to other people, probably almost definitely.

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Speaker 1: So let's say somebody's listening in there, like, okay, this

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Speaker 1: sounds good, I feel like I want to learn more

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Speaker 1: about what I always talking about. What's a good starting

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Speaker 1: point for them? Would it be the book that you

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Speaker 1: were introduced to? Like, what would you say for somebody

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Speaker 1: who wants to learn more about Buddhism?

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Speaker 2: Okay, So I'm chuckling because I'm going to mention the

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Speaker 2: book I co edited with Cheryl Giles. Okay, Black and Buddhist.

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Speaker 2: And one of the reasons why I'm recommending that book

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Speaker 2: is because it is an anthology authors from different traditions

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Speaker 2: writing about what it has meant for them to be

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Speaker 2: black in the United States and practicing Buddhism. So I

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Speaker 2: like that book for that reason. And there's all of

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Speaker 2: the books that I'm aware of from black authors who

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Speaker 2: are Buddhists are accessible, and that's what makes them special.

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Speaker 2: Rima Vessely Flatt her book is more academic, but it

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Speaker 2: is brilliant. And then Tiknat Hans's books. Here's what I

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Speaker 2: want to say about Tiknat Hans, the Vietnamese Buddhist monk

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Speaker 2: who passed not long ago. He wrote his books specifically

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Speaker 2: to be accessible to Westerners. They're simple, they're sweet, they're

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Speaker 2: deceptively wise, and I recommend them.

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Speaker 1: Yes, okay, So talk to me more about the experience

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Speaker 1: of being black in Buddhists, because I feel like anywhere

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Speaker 1: black people go, we realize, especially in systems that were

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Speaker 1: not built for us or we were not at the

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Speaker 1: history of the foundations of them, we noticed these glaring

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Speaker 1: omissions are things that like enhance the understanding for us.

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Speaker 1: So tell me more about your experience, specifically being a

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Speaker 1: black woman in Buddhists.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, having grown up in the United Methodist Church,

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Speaker 2: I received messages in different ways. Some I was conscious

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Speaker 2: of receiving, others I was not conscious of receiving about

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Speaker 2: Christian supremacy, about what it means to be black people

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Speaker 2: can only be Christian. And then, of course later in

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Speaker 2: the sixties we realized no, that it's not the case.

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Speaker 2: So it's only recently that it has risen to the

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Speaker 2: awareness generally speaking that there are many black people who

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Speaker 2: practice Buddhism and have for decades. One of the things

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Speaker 2: that I think being black and Buddhist presents. One of

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Speaker 2: the conflicts it presents, especially for people brand new, is

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Speaker 2: that they don't know that many black people who are

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Speaker 2: practicing Buddhism, so they practice and read by themselves, isolated

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Speaker 2: and wondering is this for me? I did the same thing, right,

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Speaker 2: is this for me? Thank you for this book. I'm

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Speaker 2: reading it, but is this for me? And in Tikna

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Speaker 2: Han's books, many of them, he'll say, don't just practice

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Speaker 2: by yourself, find a practice community. So I'm like, I

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Speaker 2: don't know about that. I don't know. But then about

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Speaker 2: two years into reading by myself, practicing by myself, I

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Speaker 2: did find communities that were beautiful and supportive. So that's good.

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Speaker 2: I think the rub for some black folks as it

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Speaker 2: relates to Buddhism will be does Buddhism support liberation for

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Speaker 2: black folks? Because when we see our protests for liberation,

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Speaker 2: for recognition, anti oppressive struggles, the spokespeople tend to be

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Speaker 2: from the churches, if they're coming from a religious point

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Speaker 2: of view. Rarely do we see Buddhists who are on

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Speaker 2: the front lines, or who have the microphone or have

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Speaker 2: the attention of the press. So that's a question does

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Speaker 2: Buddhism support black liberation? And I think the answer is yes.

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Speaker 2: The question is what does liberation mean from a black

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Speaker 2: point of view in the United States? And what does

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Speaker 2: liberation mean from a Buddhist point of view, and the

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Speaker 2: power of bringing these two thoughts together being black in

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Speaker 2: the United States, being Buddhist and black in the United

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Speaker 2: States is there's a powerful combination of liberative thought from

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Speaker 2: both traditions, being black in the United States and being Buddhist.

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Speaker 2: It's very powerful and that's what people will read in

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Speaker 2: the works of Jan Willis and Zinju Earthwin Manual and

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Speaker 2: Ruth King and Kate Johnson and Spring Washam wrote a

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Speaker 2: book about Harriet Tubman, and I think people should read it.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot there for people to take in.

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Speaker 2: I want to mention two things. Lions Roar magazine just

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Speaker 2: recently issued a Black and Buddhist issue. I recommend people

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Speaker 2: check it out. And also the Awake Network hosted something

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Speaker 2: called the Black Buddhist Summit, and those videos can be

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Speaker 2: found on Princeton University's Center for the Study of Culture

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Speaker 2: and Religion. And so there's a groundswell right now of

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Speaker 2: curating the offerings of black Buddhists much easier to find now,

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Speaker 2: got it?

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Speaker 1: And I wonder if you could say some about, like

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Speaker 1: how you've dealt with any racial discrimination you've experienced at

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Speaker 1: the hands of non black Buddhists call it out.

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Speaker 2: Just because their Buddhists doesn't mean they get a pass right.

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Speaker 2: It's clear to me that Buddhism does not automatically erase

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Speaker 2: racist tendencies. That is a project that people have to

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Speaker 2: commit to. They have to recognize it. Maybe they don't

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Speaker 2: recognize it in themselves. It's up to those who are

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Speaker 2: on the receiving end of that kind of ignorance to

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Speaker 2: call it out and within a Sanga community work on

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Speaker 2: it together.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking through something, and please correct me if I'm

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Speaker 1: way off with this, But I wonder if in Buddhist spaces,

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Speaker 1: if there is not a misinterpretation of oh, white people

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Speaker 1: have these kinds of things because of like good karma

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Speaker 1: or karma. So how it's privilege, our oppression seen through

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Speaker 1: like a Buddhist lens. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I think so. And then doctor Joy, you

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Speaker 2: tell me if I'm not speaking in a way that

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Speaker 2: is honoring where you're coming from. So, if we look

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Speaker 2: at one of the Buddha origin stories, he was wealthy, right,

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Speaker 2: he was wealthy. He was a prince, There was a warrior,

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Speaker 2: he was in the upper cast. He was destined to

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Speaker 2: receive his father's inheritance, and then he escaped from his

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Speaker 2: environment to see how people really lived, that people actually died,

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Speaker 2: they were poor, they were ill, they were old, unable,

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Speaker 2: and so on and so, according to one story, went

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Speaker 2: back to the palace, if you will, went back to

433
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 2: the compound, fret it, and then left. And in another story,

434
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: he never went back to the compound and just went

435
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 2: straight to the forest to figure out how can I

436
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 2: avoid how can I avoid this kind of pain and suffering.

437
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 2: I share this to say that the Buddha renounced his wealth,

438
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: he renounced his inheritance. He went from being wealthy to

439
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: poor as poor can be. And so this is a

440
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,400
Speaker 2: part of the story that a lot of people don't

441
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: dwell on that in order to learn how to let

442
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 2: go of suffering, one of the things that we probably

443
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 2: need to do is let go of all the artifice,

444
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,239
Speaker 2: all the ways that people have propped us up to

445
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 2: think that we are entitled to this, and that that's

446
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: one way to start. And the fact that many of

447
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: us don't talk about that might say something about those

448
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: who are inheriting Buddhism. But I also want to say

449
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 2: this that a lot of people think that Buddhism is

450
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: mostly practiced by white people. That's not the case. It

451
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,479
Speaker 2: is the case that many white people have authored books

452
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 2: that helped bring light to Buddhism and Zen, but really

453
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: most of the practitioners of Buddhism are people of color.

454
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: Got it? Okay? That is helpful. So it sounds like

455
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 1: inherent in like some of the teachings of Buddhism should

456
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: be questions and conversations around like privilege and those kinds

457
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 1: of things and cast Yes, got it. So I wonder

458
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: if you would share with us what was it like

459
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: talking with your family and other loved ones about your

460
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: newly found kind of relationship to Buddhism and the things

461
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: that you were learning about Buddhism upon your fortieth birthday.

462
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: That is so funny. We've yet to have that conversation.

463
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:39,080
Speaker 2: It's been twenty two years. Yeah. Yeah, very little interest,

464
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 2: even though I don't have the kind of family that

465
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 2: has been very curious about my religious leanings. That should

466
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: not dissuade people from pursuing their path. And if they

467
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 2: have the opportunity and desire to say something in their

468
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 2: family about what they're interested in and they get pushback

469
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: from it, I would say a Buddhist practice might be

470
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 2: just understanding that all of us are conditioned in certain ways,

471
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 2: all of us, and it is part of the human

472
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 2: condition to push back on things we're not familiar with,

473
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 2: since that's part of the human condition, and the defenses

474
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 2: arise to not take it personally. This is just the

475
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,480
Speaker 2: nature of being human. And also don't give in, because

476
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 2: ultimately one's wellbeing is their own responsibility. So you can

477
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 2: just say, yeah, okay, just want to share that with you.

478
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 2: I see that you're not really that interested, and that's

479
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: cool because Buddhism is not a proselytizing tradition, and so

480
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,239
Speaker 2: that's not really the conversation we want to be in.

481
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 2: You have every right to pursue and practice what is

482
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 2: meaningful to you, and so do I, and we can

483
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: co exiit together in those pursuits. And also, yes, I

484
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 2: have been fortunate to find many people, many countless people

485
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: who have supported me along the way and still do.

486
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 2: And I try to do my best to support people

487
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 2: as well. And that's where the joy comes from. The

488
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 2: joy isn't doctor joy. The joy is in, as you know,

489
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 2: The joy is in supporting a person as they are

490
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 2: struggling and supporting them through their struggles and being able

491
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 2: to see the ways that the light bulb comes on

492
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: that evidence of insight and resilience, the courage to move forward.

493
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 2: I say, that's what I live for, and so that

494
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 2: can be found in Buddhist communities and can be found

495
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 2: in Christian communities, Muslim communities. They all offer people a

496
00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 2: path towards healing, and what we need to do is

497
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 2: figure out what path or paths work best for us.

498
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break, So you've already

499
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: started giving us some incredible resources. I think you mentioned

500
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: the Lions Roar and the Awake Network Black Buddhists of it.

501
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: Are there other resources of their podcasts or films or

502
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: things that you were aware of that you think could

503
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: be helpful for people who are wanting to learn more.

504
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, so I keep going back to Lions RAR.

505
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 2: So let me explain why I do have a prejudice. Okay,

506
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: I was an associate editor with Lions Rhar for three years.

507
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 2: My specific role as an associate editor was to highlight

508
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 2: black Buddhists. So if you go to the Lions Roar website,

509
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 2: you can find several podcasts with Black Buddhists. If you

510
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 2: go to the archives, several articles by black Buddhists, but

511
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 2: also tricycle. The Buddhist Review also has podcasts and articles

512
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: by Black Buddhists and Buddhist Piece Fellowship I want to

513
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 2: highlight I mentioned Kate Johnson. She's one of the directors

514
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: of the Buddhist Peace Fellowship. One of the reasons why

515
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: I want to highlight Buddhist Piece Fellowship is because that's

516
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 2: where I think people who are looking for a liberative

517
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 2: activist organization within Buddhism, they'll find it within the Buddhist

518
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 2: Piece Fellowship.

519
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: Thank you for that. That can be very helpful, I

520
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: would imagine for some people, thank you for sharing that.

521
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: So what would you say, IO about are some strategies

522
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: for how we can end the stigma related to like

523
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: you mentioned, like this idea that all black people practice Christianity.

524
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: What kinds of things can we really continue to do

525
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:48,400
Speaker 1: and say look in that stigma.

526
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: The first thing is that we all know deep in

527
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 2: our hearts that black people are not a monolith. We

528
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 2: know that, right. You got all kinds of people, like

529
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: in all kinds of things, doing all kinds of things,

530
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 2: look in all kinds of ways, speaking all kinds of

531
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: languages throughout the world. Let's pay attention to the ways

532
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: that we try to reduce blackness to one image. Right,

533
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 2: we do violence to the black community worldwide. When we

534
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 2: do that. Number two, we have to realize how Christianity

535
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 2: came into our lives in this aspect of the diaspora.

536
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,239
Speaker 2: It's through force and through violence. And so if we

537
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: are to be people in pursuit of freedom, freedom of

538
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:39,400
Speaker 2: mind and heart, then let's celebrate when black people are

539
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 2: in the pursuit of freedom. We don't know where it's

540
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 2: going to lead, because on this earth and in this cosmos,

541
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 2: it could lead anywhere. So that's one thing. And also

542
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,440
Speaker 2: we have to pay attention to the ways we vilify

543
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 2: black folks when they don't act in certain ways or

544
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,040
Speaker 2: belong to certain groups that we think only black people

545
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 2: should be x y Z. I get it, I really

546
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,600
Speaker 2: do get it. But let's pay attention to the ways

547
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 2: that we do that, because when we do that, then

548
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 2: we are also contributing to the harm of black people.

549
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 2: And black folks don't need any more folks harm in us. Right,

550
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 2: when you talk about stigma, I have found the best

551
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 2: way to reduce the impact and the power of stigma

552
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 2: is to give voice to what that stigma is, offer

553
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 2: alternative views and visions, and be able to embrace people

554
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 2: across our differences and not be afraid. Stigma can lead

555
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 2: to fear and othering and punishing people who are not

556
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 2: deserving of that punishment.

557
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: So so many of the things that you share today, IYO,

558
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: Really it sounds like support good mental health, right, So

559
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: you talked about health, compassion, you talked about meditation and mindfulness,

560
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: like all of the things that we are typically working

561
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: with clients about in practicing to support their mental health.

562
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: Talk a little bit more about how Buddhist teachings have

563
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: supported your mental health and other things you like to

564
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: share about the connection between mental health and Buddhism.

565
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 2: This is a topic I'm very passionate about. I'm a

566
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:17,080
Speaker 2: pastoral counselor in private practice, so my clients come from

567
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 2: a variety of backgrounds. Some are Buddhism, are not Buddhist practitioners.

568
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 2: But the thing I would say across the board that

569
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: supports good mental health is to have the ability to

570
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 2: tell one's truth to someone who's not judgmental. And that's

571
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 2: what being in counseling and psychotherapy is about right. I

572
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: trust that I can go to fill in the blank

573
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 2: and spill my guts, spill the beans, the tea, all

574
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 2: of it, and not be judged. My hope is that

575
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 2: in that context and that container, that safe container, that

576
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 2: people then can hear themselves, hear themselves speak, and also

577
00:36:59,600 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 2: have their goodness reflected back to them. So back to

578
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:10,479
Speaker 2: basic goodness. From a Buddhist perspective, all people possess basic goodness, right,

579
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 2: and so that is also akin to a strength based

580
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 2: counseling and psychotherapeutic approach. It's our job to reflect that goodness,

581
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 2: that strength back to them, just in case they've forgotten right,

582
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 2: Because our minds are complicated, we forget right. It's like,

583
00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 2: oh yeah, I tackled that in the past. Oh yes,

584
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 2: I stood up to XYZ. Oh yes, I am able

585
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 2: to do x YZ. So that reflection back to the

586
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: meditation that I mentioned, that very first meditation that I

587
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 2: mentioned from Tikna Han breathing in, I am like still water,

588
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 2: breathing out, reflecting. Right, that's our job is to reflect.

589
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 2: And when people recognize that their goodness is being reflected,

590
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 2: they believe it. They have a greater chance, I should say,

591
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 2: believing it. They may not believe the first or second time.

592
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 2: They may not believe it the first year, but with

593
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 2: good work, eventually they will believe it and live out

594
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 2: of it.

595
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 1: And can you say more about the role of yoga

596
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 1: and meditation specifically in Buddhism.

597
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 2: So here's my understanding. This comes out of the yoga

598
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: sutras of potentially or patanjolly, depending on how you want

599
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: to pronounce it. That holding one position and breathing deeply

600
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 2: is itself yoga. Controlling the subtle energies that allows the

601
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 2: body to stay still supports a meditative mind because you're

602
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: returning your breath over and over again to your object

603
00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,439
Speaker 2: of meditation. Oftentimes it's the breath. This if we can

604
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 2: do it, and we may not be able to do

605
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 2: it the first time for more than ten minutes or

606
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 2: more than five five minutes, so it's a practice to

607
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 2: be able to do that for fifteen minutes, twenty minutes,

608
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,759
Speaker 2: work up to thirty minutes. This relaxes the body. It

609
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 2: strengthens our ability to be erect, keep our spine erect.

610
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 2: It allows if I can be I don't know Freudian

611
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: about it not Freudian. Maybe I don't know. I'll bring

612
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 2: a little bit of Freudian. When we sit in meditation,

613
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: stuff comes up from the unconscious mind. In Buddhism, it

614
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,399
Speaker 2: might be called store consciousness, right, but it comes up.

615
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 2: And for a lot of people, they're surprised by what

616
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: comes up, especially initially in meditation. Right it's like ooh, oh, ooh,

617
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 2: this is too difficult. I'm agitated. I need to stop.

618
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,640
Speaker 2: And maybe a person does need to stop initially when

619
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,800
Speaker 2: they realize that this is what happens to meditation.

620
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:49,879
Speaker 1: But to be.

621
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 2: Able to allow it to arise, encounter it, and not

622
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 2: try to push it away is what meditation is about,

623
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,839
Speaker 2: and it's what God that mental health is about, accepting ourselves,

624
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 2: accepting our lives, noticing when things arise, and making a

625
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 2: decision based on what we want to act on, if anything,

626
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 2: what we want to speak out, if anything, it's noticing

627
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 2: the mind and making decisions about it. So yoga as meditation.

628
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 2: Meditation as yoga supporting the unconscious mind and the awareness

629
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 2: of how we've been living. And sometimes when people go

630
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 2: to meditation retreats where they're sitting for forty five minutes

631
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 2: at a time, walking forty five minutes at a time,

632
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:40,719
Speaker 2: spending hours in silence. All that stuff coming up in

633
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: the first few days gives people an idea. You know what,

634
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 2: So this is what I've been doing and living like

635
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,279
Speaker 2: the last few years. Oh my goodness, let me make

636
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 2: some changes because look at all this stuff that's coming up.

637
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that that's why so many of us

638
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 1: have difficulty with meditation and stillness. Right, you don't want

639
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: to deal with all this stuff that does come up.

640
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 1: So is there anything that we have not talked about

641
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: today that you feel like? If I didn't say this thing,

642
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: I would be totally regretful.

643
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 2: Just one thing. When I think about therapy for black girls,

644
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 2: I think there's not a lot in our culture that

645
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 2: supports meditation and mindfulness for young black girls. That's boring, right,

646
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 2: Who would want to do that? I'm trying to do this.

647
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 2: That be part of this group, get this work done,

648
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 2: play whatever. Just sitting in silence is not the thing, right.

649
00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 2: But I want to say that the sooner black girls

650
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: can learn how to manage their stress, the better. Stress

651
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 2: and lots of stress leads to all kinds of poor

652
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 2: ways of trying to manage that stress. Drinking, smoking drugs,

653
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 2: self medicating, we're eating, lack of exercise, getting in relationships

654
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 2: that are not beneficial, becoming a doormat. There are many

655
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: things that are related to a stressful life. So the

656
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 2: sooner black girls can learn to manage their stress, the better.

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00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,919
Speaker 1: I love it. Thank you for sharing that. So where

658
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 1: can we stay connected with you? What is your website

659
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: as well as any social media channels you'd like to share?

660
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 2: I was told the other day I'm a Boomer, so

661
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 2: I'll start with Facebook, the boomers platform. I can be

662
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 2: found there, but I also have a website also Boomer

663
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:42,160
Speaker 2: Pamela ayo ya Toundae is the website address. I'm also

664
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 2: on LinkedIn because again I've already said that boomer and

665
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 2: I also have an Instagram account that I rarely use,

666
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:50,240
Speaker 2: but I'm going to learn how to use it, I promise,

667
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 2: and that's where I can be found for now.

668
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 1: We will be sure to include that in our show notes.

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00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending time with us today.

670
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,240
Speaker 2: Thank you, doctor John Pleasure, wishing you all the best.

671
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:02,320
Speaker 2: You're doing great work.

672
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 1: I'm so glad Doctor Yetunde was able to join me

673
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 1: for this conversation to learn more about her and her work.

674
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: Be sure to visit the show notes at Therapy for

675
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: Blackgirls dot com slash Session three eighty nine, and don't

676
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 1: forget to text this episode to two of your girls

677
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: right now and tell them to check it out. If

678
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 1: you're looking for a therapist in your area, visit our

679
00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: therapist directory at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com slash directory.

680
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: And if you want to continue digging into this topic

681
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: or just be in community with other sisters, come on

682
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: over and join us in the Sister Circle. It's our

683
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,720
Speaker 1: cozy corner of the Internet designed just for black women.

684
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 1: You can join us at community dot Therapy for Blackgirls

685
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: dot com. This episode was produced by Alise Ellens, Zaria Taylor,

686
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:52,120
Speaker 1: and Tyree Rush. Editing was done by Dennison Bradford. Thank

687
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 1: y'all so much for joining me again this week. I

688
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 1: look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon.

689
00:43:58,239 --> 00:43:58,919
Speaker 1: Take good care

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00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 2: The best pench for pot Wood