1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 2 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:22,480 Speaker 2: You Are Beef Today. Zor Nolhurston is a household name 3 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 2: for the average booklover. 4 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: Doubly so for the average black book lover. 5 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: But that wasn't the case in the nineteen seventies when 6 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 2: Alice Walker rediscovered the deceased writer's elusive works. Despite being 7 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 2: the most widely published Black woman author of the nineteen 8 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 2: thirties Harlem Renaissance, when Hirston died in nineteen sixties, her 9 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:41,160 Speaker 2: stories and books had gone out of print. 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: And if you listened to our previous episode, which one 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: of y'all want Beef, you'll recall that Zora's beef's with W. E. B. 12 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: Du Boyce, Richard Wright, and others led to her fall 13 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 1: from literary fame and into literary obscurity. 14 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: You may also recall her beefing with her Frenemie Langston 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 2: Hughes over the play meal Bone, despite Zora never speaking 16 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 2: to him again. Langston included Hurston's story The Gilded Six 17 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 2: Bits in an anthology title The Best Short Stories by 18 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 2: Black Writers. Alice Walker also had a short story in 19 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 2: that collection, call to Hell with Dying, but Several years later, 20 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 2: a neighbor let Alice Walker their eyes were watching God, 21 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 2: and then Walker's journey to unearthed Zorra began. The young 22 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 2: Walker began studying Heurston's life in writing, and in nineteen 23 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 2: seventy three, she found herself knee high in grasses and 24 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 2: weeds in Fort Pierce, Florida's Garden of Heavenly Rest, searching 25 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 2: for Hurston's unmarked grave. In a two thousand and four 26 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 2: MPR interview, Walker described calling out to Zorra to find 27 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 2: the writer's resting place. I actually started to call to 28 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: her to Zorra, she remembers, and I just kind of 29 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 2: stepped into this hole, which was the only thing that 30 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 2: looked like a grave in the area. Walker took it 31 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 2: upon herself to buy Zora a headstone and inscribed it 32 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 2: a Genius of the South. Walker wrote about looking for 33 00:01:57,160 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 2: Zorra in a Miss magazine article titled in Search of 34 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 2: zor Or Neil Hurston. The article sparked a renewed interest 35 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 2: in Zora Neil Hurston and her writing. Later, Walker edited 36 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 2: A Hurston Reader, taking its title from a Hurston quote, 37 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 2: I love myself when I am laughing and then again 38 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 2: when I'm looking mean and impressive. 39 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: I shuddered to think about what would have happened to 40 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: Zora's story and writing if Alice Walker hadn't taken it 41 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:21,359 Speaker 1: upon herself to go looking. 42 00:02:21,800 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 2: Now we have Zora's novels like Their Eyes Were Watching God, Moses, 43 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 2: Man of the Mountain, and Jonahs Gordvine. We have Zora's 44 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 2: folk tales and short stories like every Time Got to 45 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 2: Confess and Mules and Men, and her autobiography Desk Tracks 46 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 2: on a Road In short. We have Zora. We still 47 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 2: have soa. 48 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 3: My name is Zora Neil Herston. This song the call 49 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 3: shove it Over, and it's the line in rhythm, pretty gentle. 50 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 3: To distribute it all over Florida where I got you 51 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 3: you land noise. I'm going to spread the news about 52 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 3: the Florida boy shove it all. Oh wow, Hey, you'll 53 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 3: catch a line a shack. 54 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 4: A like a lack a la like a like a like. 55 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 2: I'm Katie and I'm Eve's today's episode Literary Detectives. 56 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: After the break, we'll take a look at another black 57 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: woman writer whose writing and story went out of print 58 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: after her death in nineteen sixty six. Then we'll speak 59 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,119 Speaker 1: with Michael Gonzalez, the curious reader and intrepid writer who 60 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: resurfaced that writer's short stories in the early twenty twenties. 61 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 2: That mystery writer we tease before the break, it's Diane 62 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 2: Oliver Eves. Do you remember the first time you heard 63 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 2: of her? Honest, it was really recently same. I didn't 64 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 2: learn about her in school or even as a bookstore owner. 65 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 2: I found out about her in twenty twenty two, when 66 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 2: Michael wrote about her in The Bitter Southerner. I was 67 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,119 Speaker 2: fascinated by Diane, a twenty two year old writer whose 68 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: life was tragically cut short by a motorcycle crash in 69 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty six. I was also fascinated by her stories, 70 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 2: which are mostly about the horrors of racism and black 71 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 2: communities in suburban America. Reading her stories now, when might 72 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 2: place her work in the historical fiction category For a 73 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 2: Remember she's writing in the mid sixties. The lunch counter 74 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 2: and the grade school integrations and the ever present Jim 75 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: Crow was very current when Diane was writing these stories, 76 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: and we wouldn't be alone in not knowing Diane's work. 77 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 2: She was young, very talented, but still young, so when 78 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 2: she died, some of her short stories were published posthumously, 79 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 2: but they were believed to be her only remaining works. 80 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 2: But sometimes reality has plot twists too. Diane's family kept 81 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: Diane's writing in a chest for nearly sixty years, and 82 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 2: idot late eight new unpublished stories a positive plot twist. 83 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 2: We love to see it. 84 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: Of course, we want to learn more about Diane, so 85 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: let's speak with Michael Gonzalez, the writer who was the 86 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: catalyst for the renewed interest in Diane's work. Michael is 87 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: a literary essayist, music journalist, and short story scribe and, 88 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: as our luck would have it, a podcast guest. Michael, 89 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to On Theme. 90 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. 91 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 2: Thanks for joining us. Can you give us a brief bio? 92 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 2: How you describe yourself? 93 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,159 Speaker 4: I describe myself as a cultural critic. I mean, I've 94 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 4: been writing since I was a kid, and you know, 95 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 4: when i was younger, I used to write a lot 96 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 4: of short stories, which I'm doing again now, but for 97 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 4: most of my career I was writing about music and 98 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 4: books and television and film and that kind of stuff. 99 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 4: So one of my heroes, Greg Tait, used to call 100 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 4: himself a cultural critic, and I kind of adopted that. 101 00:05:56,360 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 2: So we have you on today because Diane Olive short 102 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 2: stories were recently published and you had a hand in that. 103 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: So I'm curious to know and hear you describe how 104 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 2: you came to find out about Diane Oliver in her writing. 105 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 4: Well, you know, it was kind of weird because one 106 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 4: of my friends, Paul Price, he and I went to 107 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 4: college together, and he was moving from Jersey to Florida 108 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 4: and he was cleaning out a historic facility and he 109 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 4: started sending me all kinds of old black stuff that 110 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:28,800 Speaker 4: he had, and one of the books that he sent 111 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 4: me was an anthology called Rite On and Right On, 112 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 4: I believe was publishing either seventy one or seventy two, 113 00:06:36,560 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 4: and you know it had a bunch of people in there, 114 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 4: Lorraine Hansbury and Leroy Jones, and you know, I came 115 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 4: across this name Diane Oliver, who, out of all the 116 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 4: names in the book, hers was the only one that 117 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 4: I was unfamiliar with. So I was like, okay, well 118 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,400 Speaker 4: let me check her out. I've never heard of her before. 119 00:06:55,520 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 4: And I the story that was in there was Neighbors, 120 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 4: which is actually the title story of the short story 121 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 4: collection that just came out from Grove Atlantic and I 122 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 4: read Neighbors. Neighbors was this short story about a family 123 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 4: and their little boy that is supposed to integrate a 124 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 4: Southern school during Jim Crow the following day. And it 125 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 4: begins with the older sister on the bus coming from 126 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 4: her job as a domestic thinking about the pressures of 127 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 4: that her little brother is going through. You know, she's 128 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 4: walking through the neighborhood. People are giving their support or 129 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 4: given their opinions one way or the other. And then 130 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 4: she comes home and you know, there's the men are 131 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 4: meeting in the dining room, the minister and you know, 132 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 4: the local men of the community, the men from the church, 133 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 4: and the kitchen, the women are meeting and everybody's trying 134 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 4: to decide if this little boy is going to go 135 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 4: to integrate this school the next day. And it was 136 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:05,120 Speaker 4: such a real story to me because you know, when 137 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 4: you watch movies about civil rights, and you know, you 138 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:14,239 Speaker 4: never really deal with the dilemma. You know, we deal 139 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 4: with you know, yes, this is going to happen and 140 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 4: you have to be strong or whatever, but you know, 141 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 4: there's not a lot written about, you know, what the 142 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 4: family is going through in terms of their nerves, what 143 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 4: the little boy might be going through in terms of 144 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 4: his fear. I mean, everybody's afraid. And this story was 145 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 4: just so real. I mean it felt like I was 146 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 4: in these people's homes. I mean, I you know, of course, 147 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,679 Speaker 4: like everybody else had read about Jim Crow and about 148 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 4: people integrating schools, but this was the first short story 149 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 4: that I read that really put me in that house, 150 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 4: put me with those people. And after I read the book, 151 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 4: like I put in my essay, later on, I wanted 152 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 4: to know more about Diane Oliver. I'm like, who is she? Like, 153 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 4: how come I don't know more about her? How Come 154 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 4: she's not up there with you know, Tony Morrison or 155 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 4: you know any Alice Walker or any of the other 156 00:09:15,880 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 4: you know, black women or black writers period. And I 157 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 4: just started digging and looking for more of her work. 158 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 4: I found some of her work online. Thank god, there 159 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 4: is an archive of Negro Digest Slash Black World, which 160 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 4: was a magazine that Johnson Publications, the same people that 161 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 4: put out Ebony and Jet did. It was a black 162 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 4: literary magazine in the fifties and sixties and early seventies 163 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 4: that published some of her short stories. And so I 164 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 4: just started looking more and more into her work trying. 165 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 4: It wasn't really that much about her written at the time. 166 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 4: And so the essay that I wrote, which was published 167 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 4: in the in the Bit Southerner and it was called 168 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 4: The Short Stories and Too Short Life of Diane Oliver, 169 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 4: which was published in March twenty twenty two, I just basically, 170 00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 4: you know, went with a little bit of material that 171 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 4: I could find and basically wrote this essay about her 172 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 4: and her stories, the few stories that I did find 173 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 4: through Negro digests and as well as some that were 174 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 4: published in anthologies that I later ordered, And you know, 175 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 4: I just felt so, I mean, I feel really good 176 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 4: that this revival of her work is happening. You know, 177 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 4: years ago in the seventies, Alice Walker basically brought on 178 00:10:43,160 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 4: the revival of Zoria and Neil Hurston. She found Zoria's grave, 179 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 4: if I'm not mistaken, which didn't even have a marker 180 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 4: on it. She wound up buying a gravestone for Zoria 181 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 4: and Neil Hurston. And she was instrumental in basic bringing 182 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 4: back to this woman of the Harlem Renaissance that who 183 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 4: had kind of faded away. And so a small part 184 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 4: of me felt the same way with Diane Oliver. I 185 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:18,239 Speaker 4: mean I kind of claimed her as my own because 186 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:23,280 Speaker 4: prior to my essay, nobody was talking about her. I 187 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 4: was basically turning on all these different black writers to 188 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 4: Diane Oliver's work, and so it felt I mean, it 189 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 4: just felt really good. It just felt really good. And 190 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 4: you know, I'm just so proud of where it's going. 191 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 4: I feel a sense of pride that this is happening. 192 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 2: It seems like there's tradition of black writers making sure 193 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 2: that other black writers do not fall into obscurity or 194 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 2: that their work is seen one more time, one more time, 195 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 2: one more time. And I was wondering, do you feel 196 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 2: like you're a part of that tradition or what do 197 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 2: you How do you that tradition of rediscovering and then 198 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 2: amplifying not just keeping it to yourself, but making sure 199 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 2: that as many people as possible. No, kind of like 200 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 2: Alice Walker did, was Zora Nelhurston. 201 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 4: Well, a small part of me kind of took that 202 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 4: as a mission, maybe about ten years ago, like in 203 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 4: twenty fourteen. You know, one of the things, I mean, 204 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 4: I love black writing. I love black writers, but I 205 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 4: also you know, would visit a lot of bookstores and 206 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 4: it seemed to me, like, I think I got frustrated 207 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 4: with the beats. I mean, as much as I love 208 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 4: Jack Kerouac and William Burrows, and I'm like, how many 209 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 4: more editions of their work do we need? You know 210 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 4: what I mean. I'm like, you know, there are so 211 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 4: many black writers who put out one or two books 212 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 4: in the seventies and just basically disappeared. Nobody has heard 213 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 4: about these people. And you know, I kind of just 214 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,959 Speaker 4: took it on myself to start writing about these rights. 215 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,719 Speaker 4: I did an essay on a Chicago writer named Ronald o' 216 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 4: fair and he wrote a book called Hog Butcher, which 217 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 4: later on was made into a movie called Cornbret Earl 218 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 4: of Me. And it basically was about a teenage kid 219 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 4: in Chicago who is shot by a policeman. And this 220 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 4: guy is like the hero of the neighborhood. He's mistaken 221 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:29,160 Speaker 4: for a thief and he's killed. But I wanted to 222 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 4: know who was Ronald Fair, and so I started doing 223 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 4: some research, you know, on who this guy was. I mean, 224 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 4: Black Expectation films is something that I've written about extensively. 225 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 4: A guy I grew up in the seventies during the 226 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 4: Black Expectation period. I didn't know that Corporate Early in 227 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 4: Me was based on this black Man's book. So when 228 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:56,439 Speaker 4: I discovered that, I just started digging into his autobiography 229 00:13:56,480 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 4: finding what I could find. You know, thank God for 230 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 4: the Internet. But I also, you know, started going to 231 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 4: the libraries more often. I had to actually stop going 232 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 4: to the library, you know, because now, I mean, I 233 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 4: love libraries, but I don't like to go as much 234 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 4: as I used to because they're not the same. They're 235 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 4: not quiet, you know. I used to go there to 236 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 4: have a sanctuary that it's like a recsenter or something, 237 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,640 Speaker 4: you know. But I did start going to the library 238 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 4: again to do research because there's a lot of books 239 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 4: that you can't find online or you know, even if 240 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 4: you could order them from Amazon, they're like, you know, 241 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 4: sixty dollars. I'm not paying sixty dollars just to read 242 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 4: the section of a book, right, So you know, it 243 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,360 Speaker 4: sent me to the library again. In twenty fourteen, I 244 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 4: was living in Philadelphia, and then later on I moved 245 00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 4: to Baltimore, And you know, when you tell librarians were 246 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 4: you're doing, you know, I would get into some conversations. 247 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 4: They were just so helpful, and I can't give enough 248 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 4: props to the librarians in Philadelphia and in Baltimore who 249 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 4: just was you know, would go out of their way 250 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 4: to help me with these columns, I mean with these articles. 251 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: Rather, did you find that in your research process you 252 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: ran into anybody who had an intense interest in Diane Oliver, 253 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: like somebody that you didn't seek out who you knew 254 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 1: had that interest? 255 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 4: None? Nobody. I mean I did find and I can't 256 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 4: remember her name of him, but I found a woman 257 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 4: that was in uh the Iowa Writers' Workshop with her. 258 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:48,200 Speaker 4: She had written a little essay in that appeared in 259 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 4: a magazine called The Brooklyn Rail and she had written 260 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 4: a little bit about Diane Oliver, and so I, you know, 261 00:15:55,840 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 4: reached out to her. But other than not know, I mean, 262 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 4: it was almost like she didn't exist. And to this day, 263 00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 4: I don't know why. You know, I discovered her work 264 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 4: in different anthologies that you know, came out through the 265 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 4: seventies and eighties, and I just don't know why no one, 266 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 4: you know, attached themselves or looked into her. I mean, 267 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 4: you know, sometimes with these anthologies, you know, people look 268 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 4: at them and they read them or whatever, but you know, 269 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 4: other than that, they're just throw them back on the pile, 270 00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 4: and that's it. I just had a general curiosity, and 271 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 4: you know, as a I don't know, I mean, I 272 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 4: don't want to call myself like a literary detective or anything, 273 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 4: but I just wanted. I just wanted to know more, 274 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 4: you know, and so I just found what I could 275 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 4: find them. Nego Digests and Jet were the only ones 276 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 4: who actually did obituaries on her. From what I understand, 277 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 4: she was supposed to graduate in June of nineteen sixty 278 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 4: six and then she was going to go to Chicago 279 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 4: to work for Johnson Publications. But I love, you know, 280 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 4: finding some of this stuff on Google Books. I mean, 281 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 4: Google Books is such a great research you know, a 282 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 4: research guide, as is sometimes the Internet Archive, where I 283 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,239 Speaker 4: could find different books and different things like that. I 284 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 4: was writing a column for Catapult called the Blacklist, which 285 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 4: was basically about out of print black writers, and so 286 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 4: I think that was part of you know, I had 287 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 4: already started on that mission. I only did six of 288 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 4: them for Catapult because my editor got a promotion and 289 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 4: I didn't really want to work with another editor, so 290 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 4: I stopped doing that. But you know, it didn't stop 291 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 4: my curiosity in you know, unveiling or discovering or rediscovering 292 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 4: other these you know, black writers. 293 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love your Catapult column and you went on 294 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 2: to continue to write about other authors for other publications. 295 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 2: Why was that exploration and examination and discovery and rediscovery 296 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 2: important to you? 297 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 4: I love writers, I love writing. I love you know, 298 00:18:19,560 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 4: various styles. I love you know, the era of the 299 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 4: you know, fifties, sixties, seventies, the writers that came out 300 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:35,159 Speaker 4: of that era. And you know, even though Diane Oliver 301 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:40,480 Speaker 4: was the MFA candidate, you know, most of the writers 302 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 4: that came out of those periods didn't go through the 303 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 4: same kind of MFA programs. They were like writing out 304 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 4: of experience and you know, who knows, Like they might 305 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,640 Speaker 4: have been day laborers or whatever. People had different kind 306 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 4: of jobs and different kind of career paths. And you know, 307 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 4: I've just always been curious about who these writers are, 308 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 4: Like I was saying before, you know, I see a 309 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 4: lot of white writers who you know, they are constantly 310 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 4: in print, People are constantly writing about their work. There's 311 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 4: no shortage of essays or you know, books about these writers. 312 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 4: And a part of me was just like, how come 313 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 4: we don't have that? How come you know, people aren't 314 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 4: curious about the black writers. I mean, you know, there 315 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 4: are a lot of black writers that people do are 316 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 4: curious about, you know, who stay in print, like you 317 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 4: know Tony Morrison or Tony cable Bar or you know 318 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 4: Alice Walker. But you know, I wanted to know more 319 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 4: about the other people as well. The first person that 320 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 4: I wrote about was Who's a guy who's a friend 321 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 4: of mine named Darius James who wrote this crazy book 322 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 4: that came out in the nineties called Negrophobia. And if 323 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 4: you haven't read Negrophobia, please do. I mean it's one 324 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 4: of the most bizarro books ever. I don't know if 325 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 4: my essay had anything to do with it, but within 326 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:15,919 Speaker 4: months of me writing about his book was reprinted. And 327 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 4: so there have been a couple of writers that I've 328 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 4: written about, Neddie Jones being one who wrote a book 329 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 4: called Fishtails. I wrote about Fishtails for long Reads. It 330 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 4: was an essay called Beautiful Women Ugly Scenes because which 331 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 4: I actually stole from a book from you, but I 332 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 4: always loved that title. And Eddy was a writer that 333 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 4: I found. You know, my late girlfriend she loved Neddie 334 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 4: Jones and she used to talk about this book Fishtails 335 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 4: and I actually bought it for her, but I never 336 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 4: read it. I bought it for her in the nineties, 337 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 4: but I never read it myself, and that when I 338 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 4: finally read it, I was like, wait, this book is wow. 339 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 4: Like she was just like, you know, drinking and talking 340 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 4: mad and I just loved her for you know, it 341 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,119 Speaker 4: took the book took place in New York and Detroit. 342 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 4: Neddie is from Detroit originally, and I discovered that one 343 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 4: of my friends was friends with Nettie and I found 344 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 4: her like that, and you know, it's been that kind 345 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 4: of thing. I mean. Charlotte Carter was another one that 346 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 4: I wrote about who She was a black crime writer 347 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 4: in the in the nineties who put out a trilogy 348 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 4: of books about a black woman. She was like an 349 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 4: amateur detective. But they were really good books and I 350 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,120 Speaker 4: really enjoyed reading them, and so I wrote about her, 351 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 4: and she wound up getting her books came back into print. 352 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:58,120 Speaker 4: But you know, one thing, and I guess maybe it's 353 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 4: my ego so times, but you know, these books come 354 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 4: back into print the way he ever says, oh well, 355 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 4: you know, you know, Michael Gonzales is the reason that 356 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 4: these books are back and for everybody acts like they 357 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 4: were there was that we discovered it. I mean, not 358 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 4: the writers themselves. I mean I've had the writers reach 359 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 4: out to me and thank me and whatever. I mean. 360 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,360 Speaker 4: You know, I'm a simple guy. I don't need awards everything, 361 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 4: just you know, recognition. 362 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 2: What's a respect? Michael's names, props, you know what we 363 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 2: you give me your props because I feel like you 364 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 2: truly have the magic touch with this. Because I remember 365 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 2: seeing that article in twenty twenty two and then hearing 366 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 2: that the book was coming out in twenty twenty four, 367 00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: knowing how slow publishing is, I was like, oh, y'all 368 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,160 Speaker 2: fast tracked this, like y'all really wanted this out after 369 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 2: reading Michael's article. And one of the things about Diane 370 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 2: Oliver's writing, especially in this collection, it's very of the 371 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,000 Speaker 2: time she was in in the time she was writing, 372 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,479 Speaker 2: which is the sixties. So what do you think it 373 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 2: is about her writing that's resonating with people in twenty 374 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 2: twenty four? It being about Jim Crow era situations. 375 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 4: I agree with you, and I don't agree with you 376 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 4: because some of the stories just have like a gothic 377 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 4: kind of feel to me, Like that story meant Julip's 378 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 4: not served here that is. I love that story. I 379 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 4: love it. It's so stunning. 380 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 2: When I started feeling the twist coming, I was like, oh, am, 381 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 2: I right, But. 382 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 4: You know I think I mean, especially with the current 383 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 4: climate or race, it's like, I mean, who doesn't feel like, 384 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 4: you know, racism is alive and well in America. I mean, 385 00:23:40,080 --> 00:23:43,479 Speaker 4: it's never gone away. Sometimes it might hide out for 386 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 4: a little while, but you know, affirmative actions being has 387 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 4: been taken away. You know, we see what the Santus 388 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 4: is doing in Florida. You know, now it looks like, 389 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 4: you know, God forbid that Trump is going to get 390 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 4: back into the White House, and we know what he's 391 00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 4: all about. I mean, I think black people and you know, 392 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 4: are realized that, you know, these things can change it 393 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 4: any time, you know. I mean I used to joke 394 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 4: with a friend of mine and be like, yeah, we're 395 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 4: gonna wake up one day. They're going to be like, 396 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 4: you know, slavery started back, you know, and it's like, 397 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 4: you know, I say that as a joke, but it's 398 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 4: not funny, you know. I mean, we don't know what's 399 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 4: going to happen with these people. You know, the people 400 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 4: in the Supreme Court, you know, the public officials. I mean, 401 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:39,600 Speaker 4: these people are just blatant. They don't care that we 402 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 4: know that they're racist. I mean, at least years ago 403 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 4: people would try to hide it a little bit. They 404 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 4: don't care. They you know, they're they're not for us. 405 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 4: And you know, I think you know people who are 406 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 4: of color in our allies. You know, we realized that. 407 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 4: And these stories, you know, I just hopefully they could 408 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,080 Speaker 4: be a warning or you know, a foretelling of what 409 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:10,200 Speaker 4: could happen. 410 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: More with Michael Gonzalez. After this break, I was thinking 411 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: about what you said earlier about how much her stories 412 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: resonated with you, and they were unlike any other stories 413 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: that you read before. And I'm just like, I know 414 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: you read a lot of stories of that era, and 415 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: for her stories to stick out to you is very fascinating. 416 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 1: And the idea that their interiorized were something that you 417 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: could understand more through her writing. Do you have any 418 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 1: insight as to why her writing was that way? What 419 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 1: was it about her life or her practice that got 420 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: her to that point with her craft? 421 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 4: Well, she was raised as Charlotte, North Carolina, so you know, 422 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 4: considering that she was in school, I don't know exactly 423 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 4: what you she was born, but considering that she was 424 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,199 Speaker 4: in school in the in sixty six, you know, we 425 00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,840 Speaker 4: can just assume that, you know, being in Charlotte, her 426 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 4: parents were educator. She grew up middle class, but you know, 427 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 4: there was still Jim Crow in the South during those years. 428 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,679 Speaker 4: You know, she was a young woman who, you know, 429 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 4: from what I understand, was a big reader and then 430 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,359 Speaker 4: she started writing, and she was reading stuff at a 431 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 4: young age. You know, she would go to the library 432 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 4: and get stacks of books and you know, sit in 433 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,440 Speaker 4: her room, and then she decided that she wanted to 434 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 4: write her own stories. I think by the time she 435 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 4: got into college and had certain teachers kind of guiding her, 436 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 4: and then getting into the Iowa Writers Program. I'm not 437 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 4: sure how difficult that was at the time, but you know, 438 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:54,439 Speaker 4: it seems to me like she she just had this 439 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 4: vision of she knew what she wanted to do from 440 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 4: the time she was young. She won a contest from 441 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 4: Mademoiselle magazine and spent the summer in New York working, 442 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 4: I believe for the literary because Mademoiselle published a lot 443 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:16,719 Speaker 4: of literary short stories during that era, and you know, 444 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,240 Speaker 4: it was one of these internships that Joe Diddion had 445 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 4: at one time, Sylvia Plath had that internship at one time. 446 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 4: When I'm reading these stories, it doesn't say, oh, she 447 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 4: was the first black to do this, or she was 448 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,520 Speaker 4: the first black to do that. But in my mind, 449 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 4: I believe she had to be. You know, I don't 450 00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 4: know how many black writers, young black writers were trying 451 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 4: out for to get this Mademoiselle internship and win these 452 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 4: contests and you know, to become a part of the 453 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 4: Iowa Writers you know, MFA program. But she was also 454 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 4: very aware of her blackness. I mean, she wasn't like 455 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 4: trying to right color out of the equation. All of 456 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 4: her stories, whether they dealt with race directly or prejudice 457 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 4: directly or whatever, you're aware that these characters are black people. 458 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 4: From what I understand, I mean, they've sold the I mean, 459 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 4: the book has been sold all over the world. You know, 460 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,160 Speaker 4: it came out in the US and England the same day, 461 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 4: but you know it's also been sold in other European 462 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 4: countries and stuff. And from what I understand from the 463 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 4: sister or you know, I mean I haven't spoken to 464 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 4: her myself, but from the interviews that she's given there 465 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 4: are more stories in this chest, so I guess, you know, 466 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,320 Speaker 4: once they decide what they're going to do, I mean, 467 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 4: hopefully there'll be enough for second volume or whatever. You know. 468 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 4: I mean, I think we're going to see. I mean, 469 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,960 Speaker 4: considering all the writing that's being done on Diane Oliver 470 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 4: right now, I wouldn't be surprised if, you know, somebody 471 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 4: buys the book and they start making Netflix a Prime 472 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:02,720 Speaker 4: or whatever movies from these. 473 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 2: I can definitely see. 474 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I mean, if like you know 475 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 4: Calson Whitehead, and you know Victor Laval or whoever, all 476 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,719 Speaker 4: these other writers exactly exactly, and I can see it 477 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 4: being done. You know, some of those stories, I mean, 478 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 4: they're so rich, they're almost like feature films, you know. 479 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 4: I mean, so I'm you know, I'm curious to see 480 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 4: what happens next. 481 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 2: Yeah. And as someone who considers himself a literary detective, 482 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 2: what tips would you give to writers or researchers looking 483 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 2: to explore lesser known literary figures like Diane Oliver essay? 484 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 4: I said, I was guided by spirits in a way. 485 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 4: I felt like she guided me to to who she was. 486 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 4: You know, I'm not trying to say that in a 487 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 4: way to be like, oh like so you know, like 488 00:29:54,080 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 4: on some mojo kind of thing. But you know, I 489 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 4: I would just tell people to try to, you know, 490 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 4: look up. Uh. You know when when you find these anthologies, 491 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 4: whether or not it's like a Norton anthology or this 492 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 4: one or that one, you know, if you find writers 493 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 4: that you're unfamiliar with, and then I have people, I 494 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 4: have friends who turned me on to different stuff because 495 00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 4: they know that I'm you know that this is an 496 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 4: interest to me. So that's basically how I discover a 497 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 4: lot of stuff. I mean through conversations with writers and 498 00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 4: just through you know, looking at different collections and stuff 499 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 4: and use bookstores. Use bookstores to me is a treasure. 500 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 4: And I don't go as much as I used to, 501 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 4: but you know, I love you know those you know, 502 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 4: books that are damn near falling apart. You know, the 503 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,920 Speaker 4: pages are turning, yell, the type maybe a little bit, 504 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,479 Speaker 4: but you know, you find all kinds of gold in 505 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 4: these books. 506 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,239 Speaker 2: Absolutely. It sounds like being out in the community and 507 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 2: talking to people is really a way to find these 508 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 2: lesser known authors too, because like you said, your friends 509 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 2: put you onto it. Going out to use bookstores like 510 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 2: being there, being present, being in conversation with people, You'll 511 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 2: find these hidden gyms that you otherwise wouldn't if you 512 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:25,480 Speaker 2: were just off to yourself. 513 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 4: I have a tendency to read a lot, and I 514 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 4: also have a tendency to buy a lot of books 515 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 4: that I may not even get you in a you know, 516 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 4: it may be a year or so. So when Paul 517 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 4: said me that right on book, I don't know what 518 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 4: made me like just start reading it immediately. 519 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 2: But you know, it was those spirit guys exactly. 520 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 4: And I'm not even joking with that. I have had 521 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 4: some weird experiences, and you know, later on, my mother 522 00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 4: was telling me how my grandmother was my great great 523 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 4: grandmother really was a conjured woman in the in Virginia, 524 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 4: and I was like, maybe I got some of those 525 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:14,680 Speaker 4: spirits in me, because you know, I've had some weird 526 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 4: experiences that turned out to be really you know, good experiences, 527 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 4: and you know went on to you know, write about 528 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 4: different things that happened because of these spirits. So thank 529 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 4: you spirits, Thank you spirits. 530 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 2: So now it is time for role credits, the segment 531 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,240 Speaker 2: where we give credit to a person, place, or thing 532 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 2: we encountered during the week, and we have Michael joining us. 533 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 2: But first, Eves, who are what would you like to 534 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 2: give credit to? This week? 535 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: I like to give credit to the champions and mentors 536 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: who help us along our paths our journeys. I was 537 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: thinking about Diane Oliver and how there were some people 538 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: in her story, like teachers, who encouraged her to keep writing, 539 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: and so times they gave her advice that she didn't 540 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:07,040 Speaker 1: necessarily follow. And I think it's really nice to have 541 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 1: those people there for you who you know have wisdom 542 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: and have knowledge who can pass that along to you, 543 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: and you know what you can take and what you 544 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: don't want to take from them. So I want to 545 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: give credit to our champions and mentors of writing. They 546 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: have helped me a lot in my path and I'm 547 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:23,360 Speaker 1: thankful for them. 548 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 2: Michael, who are what would you like to give credit to? 549 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 4: Well? I would like to give credit to one of 550 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 4: the writers who is one of my mentors who continuously 551 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 4: helps me out. His name is Barry Michael Cooper. Barry 552 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 4: started out as a journalist. He's a well known screenwriter. 553 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 4: He wrote New Jak City and sugar Hill and the 554 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 4: Folk of Rim and he's to me one of the 555 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 4: best writers in the world. And whenever I reach out 556 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 4: to him for help or guidance or whatever, He's always 557 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 4: there for me. And so right now I'm in the 558 00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 4: middle of writing another book book that was actually written 559 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,239 Speaker 4: by a white writer called The Cool World, and it 560 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 4: was endorsed by James Bowen when it came out in 561 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 4: nineteen fifty nine. It was later made into a film 562 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 4: in nineteen sixty three. And when I reached out to 563 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 4: Barry and said, Parry, you know, because all the Barrier 564 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 4: films take place in Harlem, I said, Barry, have you 565 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 4: heard of this book, The Cool World and the movie? 566 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,319 Speaker 4: He was like, oh my god, it's such a big 567 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 4: influence on me. And so he was like, you know, 568 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 4: if you have any questions, just send them to me 569 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 4: and I'll answer them. And as busy as he is, 570 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 4: I sent him the questions and literally like two hours 571 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,560 Speaker 4: later he sends me back to answers. So I'll give 572 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,360 Speaker 4: props to him, but if you don't mind, I also 573 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,959 Speaker 4: like to give props to my book word Mom, who 574 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 4: is still with us. She's eighty six years old and 575 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 4: I love her to death, and you know, she's the 576 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,799 Speaker 4: reason that I started reading. My mom always read all 577 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 4: kinds of newspapers and magazines and stuff, and her name 578 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 4: is Franciscan Vallas. Props to her as well. 579 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 2: I love that shout out to Mama's. I would like 580 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 2: to give credit to piggingbacking off of your shout out 581 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 2: to use bookstores, Michael, I want to give credit to 582 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 2: for Keeps Books, which is a used bookstore in Atlanta. 583 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 2: I hadn't been there in a while, and so I 584 00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 2: just popped in over the weekend and she shows love 585 00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 2: all the time, and it's just a really cool hangout spot. 586 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 2: Always good vibes when I'm there, and I always get 587 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 2: a really interesting book too. So shout out to four keep. 588 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 2: Shout out to Rosa Duffy at for Keeps. Where can 589 00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 2: people follow you on social media? 590 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 4: I'm on Facebook, Michael A. Gonzales, I'm on Twitter at 591 00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 4: Gonzo Geo, Nzo Mike and Mike KK one word at 592 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 4: Gonzo Mike, and I'm also on Instagram. 593 00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: Michael's instagram is Big Mike. 594 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 2: Give one and we'll see y'all next week. And thank 595 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 2: you so much Michael for joining us. 596 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 4: Thank you, I appreciate this. This was really good. Thank you. 597 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 598 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: This episode was written by Eves, jeffco and Katie Mitchell. 599 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 1: It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us 600 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us 601 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:29,359 Speaker 1: an email at hello at on Theme dot Show. Head 602 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 1: to on Theme dot Show to check out the show 603 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: notes for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the 604 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your 605 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:39,720 Speaker 1: favorite shows.