Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney alongside
Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller. Every business day, we bring
Speaker 1: you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along
Speaker 1: with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets Podcast
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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash podcast. It's get into the
Speaker 1: crypto map. Look at the bitcoin. It's up four percent today,
Speaker 1: just under eighteencoin. Look at the bitcoin. Yeah, look, all right,
Speaker 1: are we are? Let's let I think we have to separate, right,
Speaker 1: and we'll do that, and we'll do Gray Felt is
Speaker 1: right here. I think Mike mcglonna is on the line
Speaker 1: from the self and proclaimed crypto capital of MYAMI law
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Intelligence Commodities Analysts. Um, we do have to separate. Sweet,
Speaker 1: Now we've got the smart Nathan Dean, got some smart
Speaker 1: people on. Now you got Nathan Dean, who knows everything
Speaker 1: that's going on in Washington. I think we have to
Speaker 1: differentiate what's going on on, uh in Congress and with
Speaker 1: Sam Bankman freed from what's happening with the asked with
Speaker 1: the bitcoin, as you say, with the underlying asset, Katie,
Speaker 1: You've seen incredible stability and resilience I think in bitcoins
Speaker 1: and now rally well. Bitcoin is a macro asset. The
Speaker 1: fact that we are talking about I don't know, still
Speaker 1: a seven handle on CPI, but much fuller than what
Speaker 1: was expected. That's going to be good for Bitcoin, because,
Speaker 1: I mean, Matt, you've been making the point over the
Speaker 1: past months, these are two separate happenings. What's happening with
Speaker 1: these centralized exchanges. What's happening with Sam Bangman Freed and
Speaker 1: his collapsing empire that's different from the bitcoin blockchain, that's
Speaker 1: different from the bitcoin token. And is there a more
Speaker 1: stark example than today's price action. Probably not, Mike, does Mike,
Speaker 1: does this price action have anything to do with the
Speaker 1: arrest of Sam Bankman Freed. It's such a classic macro
Speaker 1: everything short covering day. Today, coins up the same as
Speaker 1: much as the nastic was this morning. There's massive shorts,
Speaker 1: and the nastic options exploration is this week. There's a
Speaker 1: huge amount of concentration of open interest right below the
Speaker 1: price we were yesterday, and they're just flushing the shorts.
Speaker 1: And that's what happens in bear markets. Remember this is
Speaker 1: still a really bad inflation and spend a significant bear markets.
Speaker 1: So Bitcoin, yeah, it looks like it's bouncing. It's going
Speaker 1: to see very good resistance around twenty thou people have
Speaker 1: given up in sand Bank and Fry. The key story
Speaker 1: today in crypto is how binances having massive outflows, and
Speaker 1: that's just because people want the key, the you know,
Speaker 1: get their coins off the exchange. But turning over to midcoin,
Speaker 1: crude oil, everything, the one markets has showing the most
Speaker 1: significant technical integation today is gold. Gold just bounce jumped above.
Speaker 1: It's fifty and a hunter week moving averages. And I
Speaker 1: fully expect you the only market you can say that about.
Speaker 1: And I fully expect Bitcoin at some point it's gonna
Speaker 1: get there. But Bitcoin is still a risk asset. Hey, Nathan,
Speaker 1: Nathan Dean, your senior policy analysom Bloomberg Intelligence. You're based
Speaker 1: in Washington, d C. That's your cross the bear. But
Speaker 1: tell us about what you expect to hear from your Congress,
Speaker 1: your regulators in Washington. This is your wheelhouse, mark. I see,
Speaker 1: I see Maxine Waters sitting down right now exactly, so
Speaker 1: you know, just real quickly, the you know, just one
Speaker 1: thing I wanted to call out on bitcoin. Though Bitcoin
Speaker 1: does have a safety net to it in terms of
Speaker 1: what we're gonna hear today in terms of FTX and
Speaker 1: the hearings and so forth, because the courts have deemed
Speaker 1: it a commodity and therefore the legislators are pretty confident
Speaker 1: that bitcoin is is safe from a regulatory perspective. What
Speaker 1: we're gonna hear in the hearing today, you know, look,
Speaker 1: the policymakers, we're going to try and score a lot
Speaker 1: of political points. With Sam Bankman freed now that he's
Speaker 1: not gonna be here, those political points are gonna come down.
Speaker 1: I don't think we're gonna learn much in the way
Speaker 1: of policy clues of what legislators want to do. But
Speaker 1: my worst case scenario, worst case being for the crypto
Speaker 1: currency industry is if you hear policymakers try and reiterate
Speaker 1: what represented Brad Sherman likes to say, and I'm paraphrasing here,
Speaker 1: but essentially let crypto burn. So if you hear some
Speaker 1: of the progressive lawmakers begin to echo those statements, that's
Speaker 1: really bad thing going in the It condent a lot
Speaker 1: of the momentum for providing regulatory clarity. Going forward, Nathan,
Speaker 1: I got to ask a question, and I'll first say,
Speaker 1: I'm not like some kind of q and on four
Speaker 1: Chan conspiracy theorist. Okay, okay, but the timing to me
Speaker 1: seems just questionable that Sam Bankman Freed is arrested hours
Speaker 1: before he testifies in front of Congress. Are you hearing
Speaker 1: anyone else ask this question? You know? Why? Now? Why
Speaker 1: in this moment? Absolutely? I mean the chairwoman, Maxine Waters
Speaker 1: even said that this morning. She just said it was
Speaker 1: really unfortunate that, uh, you know, we weren't going to
Speaker 1: hear directly form Sam Bankman Freed. And you know, there
Speaker 1: is some draft of his testimony that is going around,
Speaker 1: and if it was the actual draft, there was a
Speaker 1: lot of information that he was going to put out there,
Speaker 1: you know. So unfortunately, from the policymaker standpoint, they're not
Speaker 1: going to be able to you know, talk to Sam
Speaker 1: Bankman Freed and so forth like that. But you are
Speaker 1: going to hear about a lot of the bad actions
Speaker 1: or at least the alleged actions and so forth from
Speaker 1: John Ray in today's hearing, and you know, it will
Speaker 1: be very interesting to see if you know, policymakers, you know,
Speaker 1: really group on like custody or customer protection or securities,
Speaker 1: because the Democrats want to do something in response to this.
Speaker 1: The Republicans want to do something, but that's something is
Speaker 1: completely different, and part of them don't even know what
Speaker 1: that something is. So, you know, it's just the first
Speaker 1: stage of a long process that Congress has to get through,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna have to go through this against tomorrow
Speaker 1: when the Senate Banking Committee has their own hearing on this. Hey, Mike,
Speaker 1: what is I guess this? I guess to me, it
Speaker 1: just feels like a new phase, and it's a phase
Speaker 1: in the development of crypto, which is regulatory oversight, regulatory attention.
Speaker 1: I mean, if that's a fact what we're seeing, what
Speaker 1: does that mean? What are you hearing from some investors
Speaker 1: as a related to crypto, Well, the retail are getting
Speaker 1: hurt because a lot of them are losing money. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: people who had investments with some of these firms are
Speaker 1: through some of these firms. But from a regulatory institutional standpoint,
Speaker 1: this is what is clearly needed and I think Nathan
Speaker 1: will be able to expond on that. And this space
Speaker 1: is just you know that no needed be decentralized and
Speaker 1: you know, it just realized we need some good supervision
Speaker 1: here because they're bad actors. We found out some of
Speaker 1: the bad actors are just going out and taking people's money.
Speaker 1: So that regulation, I think, is this is we're gonna
Speaker 1: look back at. Is this is part of that paradigm
Speaker 1: shift that's going to flip over to Okay, you know
Speaker 1: what the space arena what solves this? From our et
Speaker 1: F team, Eric Felt Tunist and James Sefford is an
Speaker 1: e t F um et F would you know, you
Speaker 1: don't have to worry about your counterparty typically, So to me,
Speaker 1: that's one thing that will make a difference that should
Speaker 1: excite that process and not just ne t F tracking
Speaker 1: bitcoin trapping and index of cryptos like we do most
Speaker 1: equities and bonds. Katie Katie Greifeld is not only a
Speaker 1: cross ass or reporter, she's also what is your new
Speaker 1: title I heard yesterday on the radio, Senior Financial Analysts
Speaker 1: or something. Definitely not a financial act but she is
Speaker 1: the co host of e t F i Q on Bloberg.
Speaker 1: Who's other co host, Well, it's Matt Miller Beltunists also
Speaker 1: is there every single week. I mean I've spoken to
Speaker 1: a lot of people with that view that a lot
Speaker 1: of this pain that you're seeing among retail investors right
Speaker 1: now would have been avoided if the e t F
Speaker 1: wrapper had been made available from the get go. But
Speaker 1: at this moment in time, has a spot bitcoin e
Speaker 1: t F ever felt farther away. I think it's been
Speaker 1: pushed so far down the priority list. Gensler is definitely
Speaker 1: taking a victory lap here. So I also want to
Speaker 1: point out that, um, I'll take issue with the statement
Speaker 1: that regulation is needed just from the total like libertarian
Speaker 1: o g bitcoin point of view. If you don't share
Speaker 1: your private key with anybody else, if you hold your
Speaker 1: own assets, this is a trust less asset, so there's
Speaker 1: no there's no need for that kind of regulation. Nless,
Speaker 1: you're letting Sam bankman Fried hold your stuff like dude,
Speaker 1: hold my stuff, you know, don't spend it. That's what
Speaker 1: the bitcoin maximalists are saying. They feel vindicated did here.
Speaker 1: It's all of this Frankenstein industry that was built on
Speaker 1: top of what's supposed to be you know, people just
Speaker 1: holding bitcoin in their cold wallets. But those but those
Speaker 1: people are dinosaurs and cavemen like and Nathan, I mean
Speaker 1: you you wrote in a research note. I think I
Speaker 1: don't know yesterday the day before that even though firms
Speaker 1: like coin base and um you know, Genesis Finance, etcetera.
Speaker 1: Would face tens of millions of dollars in compliance costs,
Speaker 1: they would still welcome some kind of regulation. Absolutely. I mean,
Speaker 1: anytime you have this type of new regulations come out
Speaker 1: and this is an a crypto. I mean we saw
Speaker 1: this with Dodd Frank. What it does is it it
Speaker 1: allows the big market players, the folks that have the
Speaker 1: compliance spend, the technology spent, to actually gain market share,
Speaker 1: and it pushes out the mom and pops of the world.
Speaker 1: And you know, when you talk about all the legislative
Speaker 1: solutions that are being thrown out there right now, it
Speaker 1: really is geared towards institutional I mean you go back
Speaker 1: to the retail argument or the discussion we were just having.
Speaker 1: If any of the bill is that were to come
Speaker 1: up in two past, it would have helped coin base
Speaker 1: and f t X and Finance and even like black
Speaker 1: Rock and Fidelity, it would not have helped the mom
Speaker 1: and pops, the web three startups and so forth. Because
Speaker 1: if any legislation passes in I think it has to
Speaker 1: include the provision that securities, Sorry, the tokens out there
Speaker 1: are securities and therefore go to the Securities and Exchange Commission.
Speaker 1: So you know, that's not what a decentralized community wants.
Speaker 1: So it's gonna be really interesting to see if the
Speaker 1: crypto industry next year starts actually lobbying against some of
Speaker 1: the solutions that we're going to see come from the lawmakers. Hey, Mike,
Speaker 1: you're based in Miami here, And again, the good folks
Speaker 1: in Miami have been it's such a growing marketplace for
Speaker 1: financial services, and then they've been you know, the city
Speaker 1: itself has been advocating that. You know, they really want
Speaker 1: to be a center for all things crypto. What what's
Speaker 1: the feeling in Miami here as we think about what's
Speaker 1: happened to Sam BANKMN, Freed and f t X and
Speaker 1: the whole space over the last several weeks. They still
Speaker 1: have a stadium. Yes that's not the name is still
Speaker 1: on it. There's some kind of legal issue. When I
Speaker 1: was worked by with my wife the other day, they
Speaker 1: got to get a picture. We haven't had a picture
Speaker 1: in front of it, but the name is still on
Speaker 1: the stadium. But there was a Web three conference two
Speaker 1: weeks ago that I participated in Mayor so far as spoken,
Speaker 1: there's still quite the it was. It was full, I
Speaker 1: was replised. I was at a conference in Vegas in October.
Speaker 1: It was empty. It was full, and there's still quite
Speaker 1: the positive attitude to the bigger picture. I think from
Speaker 1: retail standpoint it's much different. From the institutional standpoint, it's
Speaker 1: still quite we're building this. This is part of the
Speaker 1: pain of a nascent asset technology, and unfortunately this is
Speaker 1: just the extreme. But one thing I want to point
Speaker 1: out is a lesson I learned, and I think y
Speaker 1: SEC is good about this. The first day in the
Speaker 1: border trade by the waterfront, I saw a note that
Speaker 1: said the ultimate seduction of other people's money. And that's
Speaker 1: what we're learning the lessons of now. So it's I mean,
Speaker 1: trading crypto seems to to the Mike mclogans of the
Speaker 1: world who have been trading you know, pork belly futures
Speaker 1: and corn futures. I mean, it's all kind of there's
Speaker 1: a lot of lessons that kind of you can learn from.
Speaker 1: This kind of thing happens in a lot of assets.
Speaker 1: And look, I'm still shocked that bitcoin is worth seventeen
Speaker 1: and a half thousand dollars. I remember, you know, I
Speaker 1: remember when U Joe Wisenthal said to me, Hey, if
Speaker 1: you liked it at a thousand, you should like it
Speaker 1: at two fifty. And I was like, I do, dude,
Speaker 1: And I would back up the truck if it weren't
Speaker 1: for you have a truck. My ethical um concerns, you can't,
Speaker 1: you know, obviously report on an asset that you own. Now,
Speaker 1: I kind of wish i'd thrown those ethical concerns to
Speaker 1: the way, and you know, but but nonetheless, it's obviously
Speaker 1: it's come down considerably from what was the high, like
Speaker 1: sixty five, well that's appropriate, um so, down to seventeen
Speaker 1: and a half, which was kind of like the last
Speaker 1: peak right in two thousand seventeen, Mike, wasn't it wasn't
Speaker 1: that where where it peaked and then it dropped back
Speaker 1: down at three or four thousand. Yes, so I think
Speaker 1: it's billion a foundation compared to that five thousand then,
Speaker 1: which bottom at three thousand. So it might get as
Speaker 1: well as twelve thousand. I'm not disputing that. Because this
Speaker 1: is a bear market. There's a good reason for it,
Speaker 1: but that's probably gonna be a foundation for the next
Speaker 1: ten x rally, because the key thing that's really notable
Speaker 1: this year is you look at open interest enlisted futures,
Speaker 1: clearly your bull market Bitcoin. You look at open interest
Speaker 1: at all the Camani's most nobly crude, which is why
Speaker 1: been bear is clearly a bear market open interests. So
Speaker 1: it's going institutional, it's taking time, and this is part
Speaker 1: of the growing pains. The question is right now we
Speaker 1: are an a massive bear market in all assets except
Speaker 1: the one thing that are coming out of it and
Speaker 1: showing signs of it is bonds and gold. Bitcoin is
Speaker 1: still risk. As I want to just point out that
Speaker 1: Maxine Waters has finished and now we're listening to Mr
Speaker 1: mckenry um give his opening statements. Before we get to um,
Speaker 1: what's his name, John Ray, John Jay Ray, the third
Speaker 1: uh Sam Bank and Freed would have been testifying here,
Speaker 1: but he was arrested. Like what Mr sam bankman Fried,
Speaker 1: we would have wells draft remarks, so maybe we would
Speaker 1: have seen some clauses fixed up and cleaned up. But
Speaker 1: we did see the draft remark. He started by saying
Speaker 1: he messed up. He used a different word and starts
Speaker 1: off by dropping the f bomb, which is classic classic
Speaker 1: kid Mike drop from the start, but then it kind
Speaker 1: of goes a little bit off the rails. I mean,
Speaker 1: he was still taking shots at c Z of course,
Speaker 1: that is the CEO of Rival Exchange Finance. He also
Speaker 1: talked about John J. Ray the Third, who is the
Speaker 1: new CEO of f TX, saying that he's reached out
Speaker 1: to Ray multiple times to offer to help to sift
Speaker 1: through the wreckage the reporting the records. Apparently Ray hasn't
Speaker 1: responded to five of Makemnfried's emails, so it's an interesting
Speaker 1: a little bit of he said. He said, right, of course,
Speaker 1: is going to testify today, so that's the main event,
Speaker 1: so we'll see what he says. Well, and I mean,
Speaker 1: what we're really waiting for. This is all interesting theater
Speaker 1: and it'll be I think, in some ways fun for
Speaker 1: those of us who are invested, um, not financially but
Speaker 1: financial professionally. But what really matters, as Nathan pointed out,
Speaker 1: is getting some uh indication of what regulation we're going
Speaker 1: to see. And Nathan, you also drew an interesting distinction
Speaker 1: I thought, between you know, the bitcoins and the dose
Speaker 1: coins of the world and the tethers and usdcs right,
Speaker 1: the stable coins are where we are likely to get
Speaker 1: regulation first. What do we expect some real transparency there? Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: and don't be surprised if you see stable coins come
Speaker 1: up quite a bit in this hearing today, because you know,
Speaker 1: there is this bill out there that's being negotiated by
Speaker 1: Chairwoman Mixing Waters, ranking Em mckenry the Treasury Department, and
Speaker 1: this bill I actually think has a decent shot of
Speaker 1: passage early next year. Wait, was this bill co authored
Speaker 1: by Sam Bankman Fried? It was not, and so but
Speaker 1: the House Financial Services Committee is using the FTX collapse
Speaker 1: as a way to propel it's stable coin bill. This
Speaker 1: bill actually started when the you know, when we had
Speaker 1: the stable coin issues earlier this year. But this bill
Speaker 1: at a high level would allow both bank issuers and
Speaker 1: non bank issuers to register with regulators. There's still some
Speaker 1: makeups over the non bank side, but it would also
Speaker 1: allow stable coins to operate as long as they're backed
Speaker 1: up a percent by high quality liquid assets. So don't
Speaker 1: be surprised if you see a lot of stable coin language.
Speaker 1: It's honestly they're just using this as a platform to
Speaker 1: push forward the momentum on that the state the the
Speaker 1: the ft X Bill, the Digital Commodities Consumer Protection Act.
Speaker 1: You know, it's tainted. It's not going to go anywhere.
Speaker 1: You're not even gonna be able to bring it back
Speaker 1: with the same name. Certain provisions are going to be
Speaker 1: in there, uh, you know, like solidifying Bitcoin and his
Speaker 1: theorum as commodities, you know, giving the SEC control and
Speaker 1: potentially you know, having a lot more custody uh discussions.
Speaker 1: But I was talking to a brokerage earlier this week
Speaker 1: and the gentleman said, you know, I've been doing custody
Speaker 1: before computers were invented. So the ideas were actually are
Speaker 1: still there. It's just Congress needs to get through the
Speaker 1: system of trying to figure out how, okay, how do
Speaker 1: we write the legislative language and get it to a
Speaker 1: point where both Republicans and Democrats can agree. We invented computers.
Speaker 1: Bloomberg invented computer We did built them. When I saw
Speaker 1: the story today, I immediately sent it around to all
Speaker 1: of my family. It's it's it's it's hugely hopeful. So
Speaker 1: how far away do you think we are from an
Speaker 1: actual on the market um medicine to to help, you know,
Speaker 1: stop people dying from melanoma from cancer skin cancer. So
Speaker 1: I think we're a few years away, and not five
Speaker 1: or ten years. A few years away. I mean basically,
Speaker 1: what we have to do in twenty three, based on
Speaker 1: this great data and we know it's real because of
Speaker 1: a P value is very statistically significant, is we're going
Speaker 1: to start a phase free in melanoma three. I guess
Speaker 1: he's gonna take twelve to eight moves to enroll, and
Speaker 1: then we need to wait twelve months to get twelveth
Speaker 1: of survival data and then find the super regulate all.
Speaker 1: So that's a couple of years. Aware. Now that the
Speaker 1: data is out, we're gonna go discussing with the f
Speaker 1: D and over regulatory agencies to see is their way
Speaker 1: to even accelerate that. So this is to be discussed well,
Speaker 1: regulate alls. But that's for me nanoma. The great thing
Speaker 1: about today is of course for all the families that
Speaker 1: have you know, kind of a high risk government enoma.
Speaker 1: But the great news for me today is I think
Speaker 1: this is kind of immunotherapy two point zero because what
Speaker 1: we saw over checkpoint and okate you dry and and
Speaker 1: and all those medicines is a huge ability to impact
Speaker 1: your immune system to kind of wake up your immune
Speaker 1: system to go eat your cancer. But what we've shown
Speaker 1: this morning for a first time in the history of
Speaker 1: medicine is our ability to design a product for one
Speaker 1: human being at the time where we could in our
Speaker 1: medicine the mutation of your specific cancer. And we've shown
Speaker 1: this morning, given the huge difference of recurrence and death,
Speaker 1: we as SCATECH to drop a goal standard. We show
Speaker 1: that we can teach your t sers which is part
Speaker 1: of the immune system, to recognize your cancer and then
Speaker 1: go eat it. And so I'm very excited about this.
Speaker 1: Plus this is modern that technology. You know, we made
Speaker 1: a lot of progressing then, so do I believe we
Speaker 1: can do better? I do you know it took us
Speaker 1: forty five days on average to get the drugs to
Speaker 1: patients from a biopsy. I think you have a line
Speaker 1: of site to thirty days that we save more lives,
Speaker 1: and I want to keep pushing the team to even
Speaker 1: go faster so that we can help as many people
Speaker 1: as we can across many cancer types. So, Steven, I
Speaker 1: mean this seems promising not just in fighting melanoma and
Speaker 1: fighting skin cancer, but in fighting other cancers as well. Exactly,
Speaker 1: So I think every solid tumor cancer is fair game now,
Speaker 1: does he mean it's gonna work everywhere? We will have
Speaker 1: to do the clinical studies. But the good news, given
Speaker 1: the safety profile of a product was very good. The
Speaker 1: safety profile of a combination modern aplust look very similar
Speaker 1: to you draw alone. As you know, sometimes with combination
Speaker 1: you see worst toxicity, and so we're not really viable
Speaker 1: for patients. And so what's very exciting now is given
Speaker 1: we are very strong data in a lot of people,
Speaker 1: our goal is to run several phase freeze at the
Speaker 1: same time in melanoma obviously, but we're working with colleagues
Speaker 1: that mark to prioritize which over two most we start in.
Speaker 1: As you know, cy Ray is using lung cancer and
Speaker 1: breast cancer in Reynald cancer and many of our cancers,
Speaker 1: and so we're gonna try those first. I also want
Speaker 1: to explore what can we do to people that are
Speaker 1: metastasies in the cancer I also want to explore in
Speaker 1: our personalized cancer vaccident MODERNA alone. You have a great
Speaker 1: news is we have now seventeen billion dollars of cash,
Speaker 1: and so we want to invest that capital to make
Speaker 1: new medicine. And this is a great place to invest
Speaker 1: because there's a big medical need for cancer. Stephan talked
Speaker 1: to us about the the size of this market. How
Speaker 1: do you think about the opportunity for this particular therapeutic. So,
Speaker 1: I think it's a very big US. One comparator is
Speaker 1: Kate you drew our sales which is on the run
Speaker 1: rate of sixteen billion dollar per year and analyst predicted
Speaker 1: up to thirty billion by when Kit you Drew expires.
Speaker 1: And so when you look at what k you do
Speaker 1: I did, Let's go back a bit in history during
Speaker 1: its face free Kit you do should a forty percent reduction.
Speaker 1: We just standard of care then in terms of recurrence
Speaker 1: and death on the same metrics we showed this morning
Speaker 1: your forty four percent decrease because draw the new goal standards.
Speaker 1: And so do I believe the opportunity of moderna PCV
Speaker 1: down the road as we expand to more cancer types,
Speaker 1: as we expend to metastatic stage, as we expand too
Speaker 1: earlier cancer could be as big or even bigger and
Speaker 1: Kit you draw, I do think so. So I think
Speaker 1: it's a very large opportunity. Stuff And how is the
Speaker 1: approval process evolved over the last several years since the pandemic.
Speaker 1: When you interact with the FDA and you've done it
Speaker 1: for obviously for for many many years, has it changed,
Speaker 1: has it become perhaps easier, more streamline, and how are
Speaker 1: you finding it? So I think the FDA first has
Speaker 1: one an amazing job during the pandemic that we all
Speaker 1: benefited from. I think the FDA has much better understanding
Speaker 1: of modern as MN a platform. And I think the
Speaker 1: f D now understand that this is a platform in
Speaker 1: the early days if you want to award, of course,
Speaker 1: to prove to the regulator, which both of you and
Speaker 1: everybody wishes that are regulators do to protect all of us,
Speaker 1: to get the clinical data to help us understand what
Speaker 1: is similar between each drugs of MODERNA. The great news
Speaker 1: about this product for cancer that we announced this morning
Speaker 1: is it's one the same chemical matter for making the
Speaker 1: AMOUNTY and spike BAX, the COVID nighting vaccine. It's the
Speaker 1: same lipid chemical, it's the same manufacturing process. So think
Speaker 1: about the comfort in terms of safety of a product
Speaker 1: that this provides the regulator and us. So I think
Speaker 1: the FDA as really a much better understanding of EMMA
Speaker 1: only as a technology. Then they did a few years
Speaker 1: ago because we were not able to provide them the
Speaker 1: data that we have since stuff. And in terms of
Speaker 1: you know, other cancer treatments, how do you think this
Speaker 1: will evolve over the next several years. I mean, obviously,
Speaker 1: the news you have today with your drug as it
Speaker 1: relates to me melanomas is a big step forward. And
Speaker 1: she stepped back and think about cancer broadly defined. How
Speaker 1: do you think you and your colleagues in in the
Speaker 1: biotech and pharmaceutical industries will be attacking cancer? Sure? I
Speaker 1: think we've made two significant scientific massive step forward in
Speaker 1: the last let's say five to ten years. One is
Speaker 1: we now believe a scientific community that cancer is always
Speaker 1: a disease of mutation of your DNA. So that's an
Speaker 1: important thing because once you understand thing in science, you
Speaker 1: are smarter at what tools are deploy to go after
Speaker 1: a problem. And so that's a big deal. That's just
Speaker 1: where we were twenty or fty years ago when we
Speaker 1: kind of no idea where fully was canceled. The second
Speaker 1: piece is we were so really understood the role of
Speaker 1: the immune system. Because what we know today is we
Speaker 1: all have cancers all the time. I've had cancer all
Speaker 1: the time in my life, since I was on the
Speaker 1: planet in a fifty f last fifty years. But because
Speaker 1: my immune system was able right from the time one
Speaker 1: cell in my body becomes cancerous ying mutation, because it's
Speaker 1: a healthy cell that my immune system was able to
Speaker 1: identify it and take care of it really quickly. Well,
Speaker 1: when your immune system is not healthy because we age,
Speaker 1: because we have a lot of stress in all life,
Speaker 1: because we're not healthy in term of physical health, mental health,
Speaker 1: sleep and all those good stuff that is really important
Speaker 1: for for immune health, well you might have one cancer
Speaker 1: cell that happiest in your body that your immne system misses,
Speaker 1: and that cancer cell becomes two and fall and becomes
Speaker 1: a tumor. And so what is very significant about those
Speaker 1: two scientific understanding is once you understand this, you can
Speaker 1: and go after a solution. So if you figure about
Speaker 1: iminotherapy one point zero the checkpoints the kids to draw
Speaker 1: this world, it was about how do you give a
Speaker 1: big kick in the immune system to kind of quote
Speaker 1: and quote wake it up to say, hey, guys, you
Speaker 1: meet something, go go find the thing you missed. And
Speaker 1: we've seen amazing progress. As I said, the phase three
Speaker 1: min anama of kids. You drive alone at the time
Speaker 1: was forty percent production of recurrence and death. Amazing. Well,
Speaker 1: the piece we're adding today to arsenal against cancer that
Speaker 1: we have disability to know for a fact, that we
Speaker 1: can teach your T cell might ty cells to recognize
Speaker 1: mutation that it has missed. So that's that's huge. And
Speaker 1: then I think the entire field is going to play
Speaker 1: around those different dimensions to think about what are the
Speaker 1: things we can combine to get your body the toolday
Speaker 1: needs to go and eat your cancer, because that's really
Speaker 1: the best thing, especially for people that I met, the
Speaker 1: static stage where you have two mols around your bodies
Speaker 1: because you you cancer is spreading. Disability to teach the
Speaker 1: immane system how to go clean it up is what
Speaker 1: I think is really the future of cancer. Let me
Speaker 1: ask you switch directions a little and ask you a
Speaker 1: little bit about COVID, because I know that you are
Speaker 1: in discussions to provide the Chinese with your vaccine um.
Speaker 1: What does it look like on the ground there as
Speaker 1: they start to open up? Is it going to spread rapidly?
Speaker 1: So as you see and its reported in the media,
Speaker 1: it is spreading rapidly, which was expected by every scientist
Speaker 1: I talked to internally at moderna or externally because as
Speaker 1: we know, the current vaccine that we're using in China
Speaker 1: didn't have a great efficacy, a lot of people did
Speaker 1: not take them, and the like in the US or
Speaker 1: in Europe or I would say most of the rest
Speaker 1: of the world where a lot of people vaccinated or
Speaker 1: unvaccinated got infected. And when you get infected, it only
Speaker 1: acts like a booster because you show your immune system
Speaker 1: how to to to to deal with the virus. And
Speaker 1: so I think the challenge that is for Chinese people
Speaker 1: but also the world because of our economy is being
Speaker 1: so intertwined with each other, is that you're going to
Speaker 1: see a very fast bread of cases. Unfortunately, you know,
Speaker 1: I think people at high risk are gonna you know,
Speaker 1: be very sick, some of them most bitteralized, some of
Speaker 1: them dying. So I'm kind of worried about where this
Speaker 1: is going. This was talked about again for a long time,
Speaker 1: the immunity coal background of China because of uh, not
Speaker 1: great vaccines in the past and not infection is going
Speaker 1: to be He's gonna be complicated. What about delivering vaccines
Speaker 1: to the you know, massive population um, Have you got
Speaker 1: the capacity to do that quickly? Will you have partners
Speaker 1: in providing them vaccines? How quickly will you be able
Speaker 1: to get the vaccines to them? What's what's the what's
Speaker 1: it looked like? So the temple we already be dictated
Speaker 1: by the Chinese of aurities, because like in every country
Speaker 1: in the world, we need regulatory approval to have the
Speaker 1: right to imported product and then with of course, the
Speaker 1: authorities for deployment. So the temple is reset up by
Speaker 1: the Chinese authorities and discussions are ongoing. In terms of manufacturing.
Speaker 1: The good news is that, if you think about it,
Speaker 1: we have shipped most of our demand for the winter
Speaker 1: in the West already, We've shipped most of a vaccine
Speaker 1: into the US, into Europe, into Japan and Zon. So
Speaker 1: you have the ensil manufacturing engine of MODELNA both in
Speaker 1: the US and in Switzerland that can be deployed for China.
Speaker 1: So we're literally talking, you know, many hundreds of millions
Speaker 1: of those is could be made available quickly, even Chinese
Speaker 1: governments wanted. So, but will you produce vaccines for China
Speaker 1: here or in Twitzerland or will the Chinese government request
Speaker 1: that you produce them locally? So if a request is
Speaker 1: to be made locally for this season. It's impossible to
Speaker 1: set up you know, clean rooms and transfer the technology
Speaker 1: and so on in matter of a couple of moss.
Speaker 1: And we need to move very quickly to the winter.
Speaker 1: In China. It's an oven themisphere. Chinese New Year is
Speaker 1: coming very soon, as you know, where a lot of
Speaker 1: families migrate and move and spend time together like all Thanksgiving,
Speaker 1: all Christmas, and so I think the timelines of local
Speaker 1: manufacturing is just not physically possible for this season. It
Speaker 1: will have to be out of the U S or Switzerland.
Speaker 1: We will be very happy to discuss about setting up
Speaker 1: manufacturing facility for next year in China and to bring
Speaker 1: the technology to China, but it's just not possible this year.
Speaker 1: So stuff on. What have your discussion has been with
Speaker 1: China over the last several years. Has it been one
Speaker 1: of they did not want to import an international solution
Speaker 1: such as moderness or did they feel like they're vaccine
Speaker 1: was good enough and maybe how those discussions changed. So
Speaker 1: we have a discussion with China since the pandemic started,
Speaker 1: as you know, nothing has happened so far we have
Speaker 1: all vaccine or or the over a money vaccine. I
Speaker 1: cannot come on discussions with sovereign as we never do
Speaker 1: it with any sovereign go on mat As you can understand,
Speaker 1: we are actively engaged with them to figure out can
Speaker 1: we be helpful to the situation developing under our eyes
Speaker 1: right now? How do you expect this too from a
Speaker 1: timing perspective, because as you mentioned just recently, I mean
Speaker 1: we are in December, I mean, and this is kind
Speaker 1: of we're right into the cold and flu and now
Speaker 1: COVID season. I guess we can put that and included
Speaker 1: as well. So it's almost like this year it may
Speaker 1: be too late. Are you more? Is it planning more
Speaker 1: about next year? So I think it's not going to
Speaker 1: be too late in the sense that because so many
Speaker 1: people have not been infect tailed. I think every day matter,
Speaker 1: every week matter. So I think saying let's throw it
Speaker 1: to our along finea now and wait for a full
Speaker 1: of twenty three is a public health mistake which I
Speaker 1: hope will not happen for the sake of a Chinese
Speaker 1: people and the sake of the world. Um, what we
Speaker 1: definitely need to do is as so prepare for next year.
Speaker 1: But the first thing first is really this season. UM,
Speaker 1: because as we've seen in the West, you see massive
Speaker 1: flu and still increasing massive ice V strap COVID. So
Speaker 1: as many scientists in the public health worre then in
Speaker 1: companies like ours, have been saying for quite a while
Speaker 1: this winter was gonna be tough. And you know it's
Speaker 1: only early December. We already see no numbers increasing after Thanksgiving,
Speaker 1: Christmas is around the corner, and the New Year holiday
Speaker 1: and parties, and I think that we're gonna have very
Speaker 1: complicated January and February in the West like we're would
Speaker 1: have been China. Still too many people have not got
Speaker 1: their omicron specific booster. It's really sad because there's plenty
Speaker 1: of vaccines in US and Europe available in pharmacist, most
Speaker 1: people are not getting them and a lot of people
Speaker 1: are going to get hurt because of it. All right,
Speaker 1: Stefan Bancell, thank you so much for joining us. We
Speaker 1: really appreciate getting your time. Stefan Bancell, chief executive officer
Speaker 1: from Moderner. Was some really positive news coming out on
Speaker 1: melanoma and other answer treatments. We appreciate your time. Thank you.
Speaker 1: All right, let's bring in any Massa. She covers all
Speaker 1: this stuff. For Bloomberg News, and Barry Ridholtz is in
Speaker 1: studio as well, chairman of Redholts Wealth Management, and he's
Speaker 1: got some podcast thing that he does all the time.
Speaker 1: We've gotta like a huge Masters in Business and what
Speaker 1: do you think? What is the current sense of what's
Speaker 1: happening at f t X. Sam Bankman freed a lot
Speaker 1: of news in the last twenty four hours. So what's
Speaker 1: happened today is we've finally had regulators come in and
Speaker 1: bring charges against um SPF, and we've got now from
Speaker 1: the SEC and CFTC more detailed information, some of which
Speaker 1: was bubbling up and coming to light, but we really
Speaker 1: have the SEC's account of what was happening at f
Speaker 1: t X as well as the d o j's charges
Speaker 1: that have been brought against um SPF, and uh some
Speaker 1: of the details in there are pretty striking. You see
Speaker 1: the comingling of funds between f t X and Alameda.
Speaker 1: Basically from the outset f t X UM was allowing
Speaker 1: ALAM to to siphon its customers funds away to make
Speaker 1: risky bats and fuel political spending, personal lavish real estate
Speaker 1: spending on SBS account and really that customer money was
Speaker 1: just going straight into Alimy at his hands. So Barry
Speaker 1: when you see this, you know, and I don't know.
Speaker 1: To me, I just felt like I was witnessed. We
Speaker 1: are witnessing a new asset class being born. And I
Speaker 1: don't know what today's action means. The arrest of Sandbank,
Speaker 1: ben Freed, the you know, the indictments, the testimony in
Speaker 1: front of Congress, how do you put that in context
Speaker 1: for what appears to be an asset class trying to
Speaker 1: be created evolved? Yeah? It to me, this is very
Speaker 1: reminiscent of the MF Global debaccle. If you remember about
Speaker 1: a decade ago, they made a lot of risky bits
Speaker 1: and when the margin calls came due, they said, hey,
Speaker 1: clients have all this cass sending their accounts, let's use
Speaker 1: some of that, which, in case you're living under rock,
Speaker 1: is very much not allowed by anybody anywhere regardless. And
Speaker 1: so if you let something like that happen, you go
Speaker 1: to jail for life. Right, what happened with MF Global
Speaker 1: didn't appear that anybody ended up going to jail. Some
Speaker 1: people got banned, and I believe the vast majority of
Speaker 1: those borrowed assets were recovered. Um here it seems like
Speaker 1: the same sort of there's some money sending in clients accounts,
Speaker 1: and even though we were never given permission to borrow this,
Speaker 1: there's no margin, there's no rational basis for touching this cash.
Speaker 1: We're gonna take it because we need it. Uh. The
Speaker 1: question here is how much of that will be recovered?
Speaker 1: And and you know the early outlines up here that
Speaker 1: it's you know, uh, tens of billions of dollars that
Speaker 1: are missing. And how much of that is ever gonna
Speaker 1: be retraced is really the big question. It's the most
Speaker 1: fascinating thing about this is why when you look at
Speaker 1: ftfs in the Bahamas really not a U S jurisdiction
Speaker 1: and and not the normal sort of thing that the
Speaker 1: SEC or the Justice Department investigates. The vast majority of
Speaker 1: their assets were not American. It was other countries. And
Speaker 1: do we have any sense of what's next for Sam
Speaker 1: Bankman Freed. I saw some footage just from some sources
Speaker 1: of him, you know, in the in I guess the
Speaker 1: custody of the Bahaming authorities to we know what's next.
Speaker 1: So Sam was arrested last night in the Bahamas, and
Speaker 1: the next step would be extradition to the US it
Speaker 1: seems given the criminal charges against him, and uh, you know,
Speaker 1: we'll see where we go from there. Was the timing?
Speaker 1: Is the timing strike you as on I talked to
Speaker 1: Barry already and he said no, but yeah, because he
Speaker 1: gets like we were waiting for him to get arrested
Speaker 1: for weeks. He wasn't. He was going out doing tons
Speaker 1: of media interview use and having text chats with his
Speaker 1: friends at Fox and stuff. But then all of a
Speaker 1: sudden or Vice, either Box or Vice, I can't remember.
Speaker 1: All of a sudden, Um, you know, hours before he's
Speaker 1: going to testify in front of Congress, he's arrested, effectively muzzled.
Speaker 1: Um does that not strike you as at least curious timing?
Speaker 1: The timing is interesting. I don't have any authoritative info
Speaker 1: on why exactly that happened. Of course people have wondered why,
Speaker 1: but he certainly is out there on the record long
Speaker 1: before being muzzled with plenty of incriminating material. Alright, Any Massa,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate that any Massa.
Speaker 1: Bloomberg News Battery, Red Holtz Master's in Business Podcasts and
Speaker 1: Red Holts Wealth Management both joining us here round table
Speaker 1: and quickly on this crypto stuff. Thanks for listening to
Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe and listen to
Speaker 1: interviews with Apple Podcasts or whatever podcast platform you for her.
Speaker 1: I'm Matt Miller. I'm on Twitter at Matt Miller N
Speaker 1: seventy three, and I'm Fall Sweeney. I'm on Twitter at
Speaker 1: pt Sweeney. Before the podcast, you can always catch us
Speaker 1: worldwide at Bloomberg Radio