WEBVTT - Ep. 147: Finding Common Ground with Animal Rights Activist Paul Bashir 0:00:08.360 --> 0:00:13.440 The Hunting Collective is presented by Element. I guess I 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:18.680 grew up on an old row. Hey everybody, I'm been O'Brien. 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:22.239 Welcome to the Hunting Collective. As always, I'm joined by 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:27.880 my trusty sidekick, Philly Engineers say hi Phil, Hey, I'm trusty. 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:32.040 You're trusty. Yeah, you're the Tonto to my lone Ranger. 0:00:33.080 --> 0:00:41.159 Are there any like sidekicks and Star Wars that han solo? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:43.479 you could be by you could be my Chewy. I'm 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.120 just gonna I'm only gonna speak in grunts and and 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:49.400 the growls from now on. That's fine. That could be 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:52.680 an improvement. You never know, my I was. I was 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.400 telling you before that my son is addicted to Star Wars, 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:58.680 has never seen any of the films. He's he just 0:00:58.720 --> 0:01:02.120 turned four. Um, happy birthday by the way to James 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.920 Benjamin Uh. The fourth birthday was last week. But he 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:08.600 dressed up like Kylo Wren from Star Wars, and I 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:12.200 dressed up like a storm Trooper for the party. Wow, 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:14.040 I wish you were wish you were here, buddy, you 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:15.800 would have loved it, he would. Well. Yeah, I just 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:17.920 like to congratulate your son on his new dad, who 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:21.360 was who was now me? Yeah, I was a little 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:24.240 worried that maybe, like you had gotten to him somehow, 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:27.520 but he can't read emails and he doesn't have a phone. Yeah, 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:29.200 I know, I've been seeking. I've been going to your 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:32.000 house at night and just like slipping like Star Wars 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:35.440 DVDs through the window. He's been he's he's been watching. 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:38.080 I mean, yeah, we've got we've got our own private 0:01:38.120 --> 0:01:41.280 Slack channel where we've just been talking about Star Wars. Yeah. Yeah, 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:43.360 So I was a little concerned that that was the case, 0:01:43.480 --> 0:01:45.880 but then I thought it's realistically, that would take a 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:48.360 lot of effort for Phil to do just to sneak 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:50.320 in the Star Wars fandom. So anyway, he goes to 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:52.840 the libraries, he got all the Star Wars books. I 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:54.920 was trying to get him into like Daniel Boone, but 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:58.320 he went the other way. So good kid, good a 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:00.800 little kid. How's Mango do? And by the way, Mango 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.520 all right, oh you know mangoes. Yeah, she's she's the 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:08.600 same same dog. We take her on multiple walks a day. 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:11.600 We've been doing this for years now, and you'd think 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:13.800 after a while, after she was out of the puppy phase. 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:17.760 Uh that she would kind of just be just chill 0:02:17.800 --> 0:02:21.480 out about walk time. But no, if we brush past 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:24.360 her leash and it like accidentally jingles on the wall, 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:27.120 she just had like loses her mind. She just starts 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:30.320 shaking and like crying like it's a walk time. And 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:32.760 I'm like, okay, Mango, and you're like four or five. 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:36.360 Now we we do this a lot, like just just 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:40.680 chill out, you know. But she's not like misbehaving, So 0:02:40.800 --> 0:02:43.080 I don't know. She's a She's a sweet, good dog. 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:46.200 She's just full of full of energy. That's how I 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:49.040 like to approach every podcast like I've never done one before, 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:51.280 and I'm just running up to it and screaming into 0:02:51.280 --> 0:02:54.799 the microphone like each time it's a new it's new 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:56.720 to me. So if I forget something, that's that's really 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:59.919 not my fault. But I'll tell you right now. I'd 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:01.560 tell you this field, but I have assault. I am 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:04.000 drinking a salty Gilbert right now and it is twelve 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:08.519 fifty one in the PM. I used I used to 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:10.720 be surprised when you when you told me, um, how 0:03:10.760 --> 0:03:13.280 early you started drinking, But now I'm not. I'm not 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:15.600 surprised sounds like are you eating something right now? What 0:03:15.639 --> 0:03:17.840 are you doing? What are you having to what are 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:21.239 you having? Because the listeners are hearing the bowl smacking? 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:23.880 What is going on? Well, I would, you know, out 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:26.520 of courtesy for the listeners, I would cut out any 0:03:26.560 --> 0:03:28.919 like sort of mouth sounds or anything like that. UM, 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.000 leave them in now, you gotta leave them. I've had 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:36.520 some leftover butter chicken. It's an Indian dish, very basic, 0:03:37.200 --> 0:03:40.520 but it reheats well. I don't know if you put 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:42.680 some butter on chicken, you got it? All right, Let's 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:44.920 get to some some we have I want to do. 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:46.720 I do want to talk about kind of the premise 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:49.880 of this conversation with Paul the sheer um and kind 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:52.840 of some of my thoughts leading into it, and briefly 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:55.800 my thoughts afterwards, because I think those are important. The 0:03:55.800 --> 0:03:58.960 conversation itself, it is what it is. It's it's not 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:01.200 a bright, shiny moan this podcast. But I think there's 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:04.400 some some some intimate and some real things you can 0:04:04.440 --> 0:04:09.000 take away from it that I feel are extremely important. 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:10.520 So we'll get to that in a minute. We got 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:14.280 some emails from all of you guys. Um here at 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:17.919 the THHC inbox and for sure, Um, we have to 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:21.320 address something we said last week. Uh. I don't know 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:23.520 a lot of times we disagree on this or have 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:25.839 different views on this, Phil, But I got an email 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:28.440 from Andrea A. Lutz and Andrew A. Lutz has wrote 0:04:28.440 --> 0:04:32.400 in several times, and she says, very strange of you 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.000 to mention you quote unquote never received an email or 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:38.400 were called out about never having a female guest. You 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.120 said you noticed it on your own. Well, I sent 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.240 you an email about this, and you responded in the podcast. 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:52.640 Oh man, uh huh um get me um. So I well, 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:53.800 there's more that she says to you, and I do 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:55.440 want to talk a little bit about this. But I 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:58.560 will apologize out of the gate Andrea for not giving 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.040 you the credit that's due. I you now remember you 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:03.080 did write me an email and it helped to push 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:06.000 me forward in terms of of wanting to have that 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.520 conversation about about women and specifically guests on this podcast. 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:13.279 So apologies are due right there. I got that one wrong. 0:05:14.080 --> 0:05:17.039 I am fixing it now. But she said she also 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:20.280 goes on more about the point. Um. She said, also, 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:22.640 it was weird if for you to ask for a 0:05:22.680 --> 0:05:24.719 female guest to speak up and say I don't care 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:28.400 about this issue. What is the point of that? Exactly? 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:30.960 That's fine for her, but damn, there's so many people 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:33.880 out there who care about this issue. Please talk to 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:37.600 them for once. It's not about quote unquote dwelling on barriers. 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:41.120 It's about exposure and conversation. Surely you've noticed the entire 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.680 Mediator podcast network as white men. This means something. It 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.920 is not a coincidence. I've been directly inspired by female 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:51.160 hunters in my life. I would be hunting without them, 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:54.200 but their direct influences dractually changed the course of my 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.920 life because they see me as a hunter and as 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.520 equal to themselves, not as a little girl who was 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:02.800 asking for help and can't pusher her own kill. I've 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.159 been blown away by your recent topics and love how 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:07.520 you dig deep. I've learned so much. I bought books 0:06:07.560 --> 0:06:10.080 and my mind has been open. But this gender thing 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.160 really has got me in a Knot even Danielle, who 0:06:13.200 --> 0:06:17.400 quote unquote doesn't care mentions being discriminated against. In Texas, 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:20.279 women are told to buck up and take what we're 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.880 offered in life, so the oh well attitude is internalized. 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:27.000 Please talk to someone who focuses on women in the outdoors, 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.039 just like you've talked to people who focus on people 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:32.080 of color in the outdoors. Your listeners, and you need 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.080 to get woken up. It's more than just sexy huntresses 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:38.800 on Instagram. It's a new rising population of female hunters 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:41.840 in the United States. This rising population is not due 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:44.840 to women going oh well when encountering misogyny in and 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:48.480 out of the field. It's women empowering women programs helping 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:52.080 women get started in hunting. I hunt because of women 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:55.359 in the outdoors and women in the outdoor programs and 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:57.960 the other women I have met in those programs. Talk 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.200 to people who do these things. I hate to your 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.039 criticism because I love your show, but this issue is 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:05.359 clearly close to my heart. And when you tell the 0:07:05.400 --> 0:07:07.960 men that listen gender issues to quote unquote don't matter, 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:10.559 it's a get out of jail free card. Do better. 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.000 Thank you, love the show, Andrew. A LUTs round of 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:16.160 applause for Andrew. Give a giver her a round of 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:21.080 applauseit or philm well done man. I would say part 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:23.280 of part of when I read this, a part of it, 0:07:23.320 --> 0:07:28.040 I do agree with um. I think it's it's frustrating 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.840 to try to deal with some of these issues on 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:35.080 a myriad of different levels. UM on a personal level, 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:38.720 but on a broad cultural level of societal level. These 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:42.800 things are UM tough, and there's a lot of dualities 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:44.840 that things that can be true at the same time. 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:48.520 So what what Andrew is saying, It's absolutely true UM 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:50.520 and we tried to kind of hedge it last week 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:54.000 when I talked to Danielle about UM and this has happened, 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:56.480 that this happened with Charles Rodney and when we were 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:59.760 in the conversation about race earlier this year. This I 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.840 think this happens with a lot of the topics that 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:06.400 we think a lot about. In these important topics like 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:11.080 UM diversity in the honey community, two things can be 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:15.040 true at the same time. I absolutely positively agree with 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:19.160 Danielle that she doesn't want to be a victim, doesn't 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:21.920 want to focus on the misogyny, doesn't want to focus 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:23.800 on the barriers that are in front of her, doesn't 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:27.120 want to make that the beginning of the conversation. She 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.280 has been given a platform and she wants to lead 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:34.040 by example and that is important to her. UM and 0:08:34.080 --> 0:08:36.240 that how that's how She's gotten to where she is, 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.520 and so if you want to get to where Danielle is, 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:41.560 it would be good to listen to her. UM. The 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:43.839 same same thing with Charles Rodden, it would be good 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:45.840 to listen to him if you want to kind of 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.880 deal with some of these issues. He went through a 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.800 hard road and has a very has that a very successful, loving, 0:08:53.000 --> 0:08:58.880 family oriented life after starting out an abject poverty with 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.800 discrimination all around them. So I think that can be 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:07.280 true that that Danielle's point of don't be a victim, 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.360 don't focus on the hatred or don't focus on the negative, 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.600 because the hunting community and other communities have so much 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:18.400 positive things too to put out there into the world. 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:21.920 But at the same time, Andrew is right, somebody out 0:09:22.000 --> 0:09:24.760 there has to be focusing on these things, somebody out 0:09:24.800 --> 0:09:27.640 there has to be talking about them, and somebody out 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:30.920 there has to be dealing with Some of them are confusing, 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:35.200 nuanced things within the conversation. So I don't say all 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.720 that like shirk It. We certainly have addressed this on 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.280 the show, will continue to address it. But I think 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:44.079 those two points can stand parallel to each other. Um, 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:45.839 if you are out there and you feel and I've 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:49.559 talked to many women who feel this way that you're 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:53.079 they dead. You yourself, don't need to have the conversation 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:55.400 about who has wronged you, who will continue to wrong 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:57.280 and how to fix it. That you just want to 0:09:57.360 --> 0:09:59.719 be accepted as part of our community, be able to 0:09:59.800 --> 0:10:02.400 hunt and fish with whomever you want, whenever you want, 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:04.320 and don't have to continue to bring up your gender, 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.120 or your identity or your race. I'm with you. I 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:10.520 think that is a wonderful way to move through the world, 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:14.839 and there are a lot of examples of that being good. Um, 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:18.520 if you're more like Andrea and you're looking for this inspiration, 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.400 you're looking for a sense of place, you're looking for 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.160 you're looking to see yourself reflected in the hunting community 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:29.600 or any other community, I think that's a viable pathway 0:10:29.600 --> 0:10:32.840 as well. Um. But I mean, as somebody who speaks publicly, 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:35.720 it's you know, I like the things that make me nervous. 0:10:35.720 --> 0:10:38.440 I like the things that make me um question my 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:42.000 own opinions. And Andrea's email and your comments, Phil do that. 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:44.720 I like that. And we're about to hear from Paul Basher, 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:48.480 and he's going to do the same thing in some ways. UM, 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.120 So I think that's that's part of what this show 0:10:51.679 --> 0:10:54.520 has been about since beginning and is about now. UM. 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:56.760 I will continue to work on that, but I do 0:10:56.880 --> 0:10:59.760 want to return to the Sizzler video for a moment. 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:02.960 Would you allow me that? Phil? I'd love nothing more? 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:07.800 Thank god. UM. One of our good good friends and emailers, 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.400 Don Willemot wrote wrote this email and he said, Okay, 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:13.960 I have to confess I was struggling a bit while 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:16.040 you and Phil indulge yourself and what appeared to be 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:20.760 the umpteenth viewing of the Sizzler video, And to be frank, 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:24.079 I didn't get it, nor did I want to. Plagued 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:26.400 by this nagging feeling that I was somehow missing out 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:28.800 on something special. I pulled up the video a couple 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:31.400 of times, but just couldn't bring myself to hit play. 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:33.760 I would load hover over the play button and close 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.080 out the link. I just couldn't see the point in 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:39.440 wasting my life's precious minutes on an obscure video passage 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:42.920 from a now defunct restaurant chain. Today, in a moment 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:45.000 of apparent boredom and with a complete lack of prep, 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:48.680 with a complete lack of prudence, and judgment. I watched 0:11:48.679 --> 0:11:52.800 the damn video. Slizzler really was more than a choice 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.240 for better dining. It was a choice for freedom, individuality, 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:58.520 a way to connect to that spirit of independence and 0:11:58.559 --> 0:12:03.200 self determination that four a nation. Sizzler was the choice. 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:07.239 And now it is gone and a world filled with uncertainty. 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:09.880 Sizzler may have been the glue that could bind us 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:15.760 all together around one glorious salad bar America. Nay, the 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.640 world has lost a bright beacon of hope. I am 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:21.600 thankful that you took the time to share this little 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.640 nugget of inspirational gold that has brought a moment of 0:12:24.720 --> 0:12:27.920 real joy into my life. I am deeply in your debt. 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:32.520 Your friend in Northern British Columbia, Don Willemot, Thank you, Don, 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.360 Thank you so much for listening to this program into 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:40.319 following us down the path of inspiration that happens around 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:46.480 the warming lights of the Sizzler buffet. Phil any commentary, 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:50.240 But oh yeah, thanks Don, But thank you more to Sizzler. Um. 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:51.680 I just want to say, if you're still a person 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.400 who goes to it like a normal restaurant and orders 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:59.480 from a menu, you are brainwashed. Yep, uh get it? 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:03.400 Get out of cheople. You're only truly free when you 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:08.360 walk into a a neon lit dining room full of pastel, 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:12.920 pink colors and stuff. You're grubby hands under a yeah, 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.360 warming light, grab yourself a well done steak and some 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:21.000 old and some old lettuce. Sizzler thank you? Yeah, I 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.360 mean you unwrap that aluminum foil and inside is a 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:28.760 rubbery potato either you don't know if it was baked 0:13:28.840 --> 0:13:31.920 or microwave. You don't know if it was cooked with plutonium. 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.600 You have no idea but the idea, but the idea 0:13:34.679 --> 0:13:37.560 that someone cared enough to put it in that aluminum 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:42.160 foil is really the point of Sizzler itself. So be inspired, 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:44.800 like don uh and watch that video. So you have 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:46.319 to go. If you if you have no idea where 0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:49.440 he's talking about, um boy, you're what You're too deep 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:53.120 into this podcast to think anything less. Go listen to 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:57.800 last week's episode with Danielle moving on um on prep. 0:13:57.800 --> 0:13:59.800 You gotta get you ready for for for Paul this year. 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.360 And if you want to kind of get an idea 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:06.320 of how I approached this conversation and who Paul is, 0:14:06.360 --> 0:14:10.280 you'll you'll get it here in a minute but Paul 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:15.840 Um and his group Anonymous for the Voiceless are i'll 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:19.280 just call him radical and and how they think about 0:14:19.320 --> 0:14:23.200 animals and animal rights UM and the activism that they 0:14:23.280 --> 0:14:27.040 display around it. UM they dress up and scary v 0:14:27.040 --> 0:14:31.000 for vandetta masks and hold TVs in a cube shape 0:14:31.680 --> 0:14:37.120 with with UM pretty horrific factory farming, slaughter and things 0:14:37.160 --> 0:14:40.680 like that going on. So UM know that going in 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:42.480 when I when I went in and wanted to have 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:45.960 a talk with Paul, I knew that there was no 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.000 way we were going to agree at the end of 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:49.600 the day, Much like some of the other guests we've 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:51.920 had on in the animal rights world, there's no way 0:14:51.960 --> 0:14:55.000 we're going to agree. But just like with with the 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:57.480 earlier topic of women and hunting, I think that there's 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.120 something super interesting, kind of in the weeds in the 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.760 middle of all this, in the bones, deeper than just 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.960 a debate about animals and animal rights and whether killing 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:10.080 him is right or wrong and sentience and the things 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.520 that we've discussed in previous episodes of this show. I 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:18.320 think in in this political climate and the social climate 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.800 where our culture stands right now, I think it is 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.800 it is so important that we humanize each other in 0:15:25.840 --> 0:15:30.000 these debates, humanize each other in these things where we 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.480 know we're never going to agree, where we are so 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.000 far away from each other in terms of how we 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:38.200 live our lives um and what we we choose to 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:42.640 espouse as our ideologies, that we humanize each other. That 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:46.760 even though to me on the outside looking in with 0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:50.680 Paul Basher, he seems like a radical animal rights guy 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.000 who likes to debate. He'll he'll debate your mom at 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:56.440 the dinner table over a turkey leg um. He And 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:58.400 if you look at their group on social media and 0:15:58.440 --> 0:16:02.480 on their website, you'll see that m there isn't um 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.360 an angle to look at them that doesn't really have 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:09.640 a harsh worldview um and and they're really judgmental of 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:13.800 everyone around them that eats meat and and by that 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:19.560 kills and murders animals, defensives animals at that. So that's 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:21.640 how I when I approached this, I know all of 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.640 that to be true. And my goal with with this, 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:26.800 and you'll see it in the conversation as it goes forward. 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.080 It's just to just to relate to him and to 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:34.560 both share like there is shared values here, we have them. 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:38.200 We are just being trained to look past them. We've 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:40.640 talked about that before with our good friend and Robert C. 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:44.840 Jones and others, where we start at nearly the same 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:47.280 spot and we walk so far away from each other 0:16:47.320 --> 0:16:50.040 that we can no longer recognize that person we're looking 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:54.960 back at. And I think as this podcast goes goes forward, 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:56.760 and if you look at the things we've done in 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.280 the past, you'll find that this is this a tempt 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.200 to humanize each other in the face of this this 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:10.199 intense philosophical disagreement is important and can be profound. So 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.359 that's something I know. Phil and I were kind of 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.480 talking about this as we were recording it. I was 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:17.360 really happy where it ended. I wasn't really happy where 0:17:17.359 --> 0:17:19.760 it started, but I was happy where it ended. So 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:22.600 we're gonna play it. Hopefully the audio works releaked. Good 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.640 for you. You can hear everything, um and you can 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.760 go on that journey with this set up any commentary 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:33.040 field before we send everyone off to this conversation with Paul, 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:36.080 uh No, you will hear you. But Ben kind of 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:38.280 put it out there at the beginning of the conversation 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.440 is very I think, especially from Paul. There's some there's 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:45.719 some hesitance tepping in because I think you guys are 0:17:45.760 --> 0:17:48.040 both kind of preparing for a for a battle. But 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:51.399 then by the end, yeah, I think it's it's a 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:55.240 good conversation. Yeah, um, it's a conversation I would have 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:57.119 again and want to have again, and hope, I hope 0:17:57.160 --> 0:18:01.120 we can come together. So enjoy this conversation with Paul 0:18:01.160 --> 0:18:03.520 Basher all the way from Australia. He is the co 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:07.200 founder of Anonymous for the Voiceless and animal rights group 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:20.600 of Some Problems. Enjoy it all, right, Hey, Paul, how's 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:26.400 it going down there? You know, just trying to make 0:18:26.440 --> 0:18:32.880 it happen whilst being quarantined. Yeah, so you're in Australia, right, Yeah, 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:40.199 I mean Victoria specifically, where there's been another um another 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:44.120 call for a strenuous lockdown. So we're in stage four 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:47.320 lockdown at the moment. Wow, have you guys had a 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:51.520 spike in COVID obviously if that's happening, Yeah, that's what 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:56.399 they're saying. They're saying that there's um a new wave 0:18:56.480 --> 0:19:02.200 of deaths that have been reported, but the numbers aren't 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:06.280 even then they don't seem too crazy, So I don't 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.959 understand why everyone's going into stage full lockdown quite frankly, 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:15.479 but they're trying to reduce the spread. Yeah, well, we've 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.359 got similar similar things here. We've we've opened up a 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:22.280 little bit more, but it certainly is the tenuous time 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:24.600 here in the States, and and so we're thinking about 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:27.239 you guys down there. Hopefully they can open you back up. 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:29.040 Have you been in lockdown before and then got out 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:34.199 and then are back in now? Um Like when this 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:38.959 first started in March April, around that time we had 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:43.679 a lockdown, Um, it was nowhere near as strict as 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:47.800 this though, Yeah, I got it. Well, Well, hopefully we 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:50.120 can get an hour your time here and talk through 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:52.119 some things and maybe take your mind off that a 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:54.280 little bit and get through some of these subjects that 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:59.359 it's not bad, that's just what's going on. Good good, 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:01.840 All right, Um, well, let's kick it off. I think 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.640 one of the one of the things that we want 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:06.960 to talk about for sure and want to get into 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:09.000 it is is kind of your mindset as an animal 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:12.640 rights activist and starting anonymous for the voiceless, and what 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:14.879 it means to you to to be doing that. Just 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:18.159 so the folks that listen to this podcast that certainly 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:21.320 come from a different worldview, can can understand where you're 0:20:21.359 --> 0:20:24.000 coming from, and not only where you're coming from with 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:26.200 with the ideology, but also coming from in your own 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:28.040 life how you got there? So you want to start 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:30.280 us with kind of I read a lot about you know, 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:31.760 you had a rap curer at some point, you were 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:33.600 an m C and a lot of things you did 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:35.480 before that. But you want to give kind of the 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.480 cliff notes of of how you came to where we 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:43.760 are today. Well, what specifically would you like to know? Oh? Well, 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:47.040 a lot of things. What So when you started an 0:20:47.040 --> 0:20:53.400 Honest for the Voices, is that correct? Correct? What did 0:20:53.480 --> 0:21:01.480 you want to achieve to get humans to take non 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:05.600 human animal rights seriously and to stop taking their rights 0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:09.320 away from them? Basically, how are you going to achieve that? 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:11.960 What was the what was the way that you thought 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:15.680 that that was best achieved at the time? Well, with 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:22.400 a v Specifically, we dedicated this organization to targeting the demand, 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:30.440 the consumer demand, and specifically um starting on the streets. 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:35.080 So we wanted to focus the organization on having real 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:38.720 conversations with people in real life instead of just focusing 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:42.880 on doing online activism, which is what most animal rights 0:21:42.920 --> 0:21:49.040 activists engage in at the moment, which is UM, which 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:52.000 is necessary. We need that as well, But we wanted 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:59.760 to do street activism UM, but it's UM generally based 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:05.040 at based on rather targeting the demand of these products 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:08.000 that lead to animals having their rights taken away from them, 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:12.239 so we're sort of targeting the consumers. Jotted and can 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:14.280 you explain the first time I was exposed to your 0:22:14.320 --> 0:22:16.280 group that they came to demonstrate in front of a 0:22:16.400 --> 0:22:19.840 live podcast we were doing in Sacramento and they were 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:21.960 doing something that we hadn't seen before. Well, there's a 0:22:22.000 --> 0:22:24.199 couple of things we hadn't seen before, and one was 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:27.600 wearing a mask, and then there was the Cuban truth. 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:29.280 Can you explain kind of what that looks like for 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:34.440 folks that haven't seen it? Could you repeat that again? 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:36.960 They were they were protests in front of your podcast. 0:22:37.040 --> 0:22:39.080 You said, yeah, we do a live podcast with the 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:41.399 Mediator Live podcast, and we were doing this has been 0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:44.440 last year in twenty nine, and we were in Sacramento 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:46.520 about to go on stage to do a show, and 0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:48.360 we heard there were some people out there that were 0:22:49.160 --> 0:22:52.960 protesting UM. So we went out and chatted with a 0:22:53.080 --> 0:22:55.280 leader I think from a local chapter of your organization 0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:58.520 about you know, factory farming, and about why we were 0:22:58.560 --> 0:23:00.560 there and what we were about. And it wasn't a 0:23:00.560 --> 0:23:05.080 bad conversation, but certainly was with people in our audience 0:23:05.480 --> 0:23:07.760 something that they thought might be confrontational. It didn't end 0:23:07.840 --> 0:23:10.040 up being. We had a good, you know, fervent debate 0:23:10.080 --> 0:23:13.080 there in the street for a short time. But um, 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:15.200 that's the first time I saw the Cuban Truth and 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:19.400 the first time that I knew about your organization. So yeah, 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:22.520 I'm just confused because you said that they set up 0:23:22.840 --> 0:23:27.040 in front of your podcast, because we usually just set 0:23:27.119 --> 0:23:28.919 up cubes on the street. And yeah, it was on 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:31.480 the street, outside of it was on the street, outside 0:23:31.480 --> 0:23:34.520 of a venue, street outside of a theater, So yeah, 0:23:34.560 --> 0:23:39.760 it was on the street, right sure, Okay, Um, And 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:43.639 your question was about the model, Yeah, the model itself. 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:45.879 What's the Yeah, what's the Cuban Truth designed to do? 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:48.800 And and the masks and just you know, just describe 0:23:48.840 --> 0:23:51.360 that for folks and and what's the designer? I mean, 0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:55.160 the guy folks mask is a very iconic pop culture mask. 0:23:55.280 --> 0:23:59.240 Everybody knows these days that it stands for, Um, there's 0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:02.080 a movement behind this mask that stands for stamping out 0:24:02.119 --> 0:24:08.800 oppression in our world and exposing truth, exposing lies rather 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:13.000 and bringing the truth to the public. What we found though, 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:15.720 is that there isn't really a section within the Anonymous 0:24:15.720 --> 0:24:18.959 movement that focuses on animal rights in a strong way 0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:22.840 that delivers the truth behind what happens to non human 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:27.160 animals at the hands of humans. There was a few 0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:31.639 little animal rights operations that were happening within the Anonymous 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:36.200 movement when I looked at it in but nowhere near enough, 0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:40.080 and it wasn't a very strong presence at all. So 0:24:40.200 --> 0:24:44.880 we decided to dedicate a v an organization to that 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:48.800 to being a movement for the animals that that is 0:24:48.840 --> 0:24:52.359 a part of the Anonymous movement. We obviously see an 0:24:52.440 --> 0:24:56.360 importance in taking away the focus from the humans who 0:24:56.359 --> 0:25:00.199 are focusing on delivering animal rights to the world or 0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:03.639 or getting animal rights to be taken seriously, and the 0:25:03.680 --> 0:25:07.119 focus to be on the animals, because that's what mainly 0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:10.159 happens when we have this conversation with non vegans. The 0:25:10.160 --> 0:25:16.120 conversation quickly becomes about humans and um and we're trying 0:25:16.160 --> 0:25:20.120 to bring the focus on the victims here, and so 0:25:20.440 --> 0:25:23.879 that's the I guess a quick spiel about the mask 0:25:23.960 --> 0:25:25.800 and why we wear the mask and while we chose 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:31.520 that guy Fowks mask specifically, and yeah, we use that 0:25:31.600 --> 0:25:33.920 mask in the cube, what we call the Cube of Truth, 0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:39.600 which is a model of street activism which effectively delivers 0:25:39.640 --> 0:25:43.320 this message to people on the streets. You guys, have 0:25:43.440 --> 0:25:46.280 you have demonstrated? You have like numbers on how many 0:25:46.280 --> 0:25:48.959 places you demonstrate and how many members or you know, 0:25:49.320 --> 0:25:52.119 describe kind of the breath and depth of what you 0:25:52.160 --> 0:25:56.040 do in the movement. Yeah, we've been doing this since 0:25:56.880 --> 0:26:02.720 April um so over four years now. Over that period 0:26:02.720 --> 0:26:05.760 of time, we've done this model of street activism in 0:26:05.960 --> 0:26:10.720 over a thousand cities on every continent. We currently have 0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:16.639 about six chapters that are operating actively. And a chapter 0:26:16.840 --> 0:26:19.800 is a city or a town who has one of 0:26:19.840 --> 0:26:22.880 these Cure Truth events that are set up and and 0:26:22.880 --> 0:26:26.760 and organize it, that runs those events, and volunteers that 0:26:26.840 --> 0:26:35.240 attend those events. Um, yeah, what's the you know, what's 0:26:35.240 --> 0:26:38.640 the bottom line? You know for folks obviously everyone listened 0:26:38.640 --> 0:26:41.359 to this won't know what the mission is, you know, 0:26:41.400 --> 0:26:44.200 and people know about animal rights. There's groups like Peter, 0:26:45.200 --> 0:26:47.800 but I find as I look at the animal rights 0:26:47.800 --> 0:26:50.080 community from the outside looking in that there are different 0:26:50.359 --> 0:26:55.120 levels two it, their different kind of goals in different places. 0:26:55.160 --> 0:26:57.159 So can you kind of just give the bottom line 0:26:57.359 --> 0:26:59.840 of what as for the voiceless wants to see in 0:26:59.880 --> 0:27:06.359 the world animal rights being taken seriously and not being 0:27:06.359 --> 0:27:11.919 taken away from animals anymore? Is there, what are the mechanisms, 0:27:11.920 --> 0:27:14.119 what are the ways that society has to change to 0:27:14.160 --> 0:27:17.960 get there? Well, the main focus we have is on meat, dairy, 0:27:17.960 --> 0:27:22.520 and eggs food products. You know that that's the main 0:27:22.600 --> 0:27:26.320 bulk of where the cruelty is coming from. Something like 0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:32.200 of all of the animal cruelty that's inflicted by humans 0:27:32.440 --> 0:27:36.479 is inflicted in the meat, dairy, egg industries. So we 0:27:36.520 --> 0:27:39.960 want to focus on that, but that doesn't take away 0:27:39.960 --> 0:27:45.520 from what is happening in the leather industries, the wool 0:27:45.720 --> 0:27:54.359 down silk, zoo and testing industries and etcetera. And honey 0:27:54.480 --> 0:27:57.439 and also with hunting. You know, we take issue with 0:27:58.720 --> 0:28:04.520 all levels of exploitation and being caused to animals where 0:28:04.520 --> 0:28:08.720 it's needlessly done. So and you guys describe just so 0:28:08.840 --> 0:28:11.360 get the lingo clear, Like a non vegan is somebody 0:28:11.400 --> 0:28:14.199 that is not you know, subscribing to what you'd like 0:28:14.240 --> 0:28:15.920 to see. Is that? Is that the term that you 0:28:15.960 --> 0:28:22.400 guys use. No, it's just simply I'm glad you asked 0:28:22.440 --> 0:28:25.240 this question, because it just simply means someone who doesn't 0:28:25.240 --> 0:28:29.960 take animal rights serious, someone who violates animal rights. The 0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:33.000 word the word vegan is not a word that should 0:28:33.040 --> 0:28:38.720 be in existence. Really, it's just someone who doesn't want 0:28:38.720 --> 0:28:43.680 to harm animals where they don't need to, got it, 0:28:43.960 --> 0:28:47.960 and that harm, you know, for for looking into if 0:28:48.680 --> 0:28:51.320 if this movement kind of proliferates the way that you 0:28:51.360 --> 0:28:54.400 wanted to. And I'm a hunter, let's say I is 0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:56.600 there what's the punishment if I kill an elk? Because 0:28:56.600 --> 0:28:58.920 this is something you guys think of or you know, 0:28:59.040 --> 0:29:02.520 factory farming. Is this akin to murder where this would 0:29:02.520 --> 0:29:06.440 be legally something that you can't do or you would 0:29:06.440 --> 0:29:13.160 be jailed for. You're asking me what the punishment should be? Yes? Yeah, yeah, 0:29:13.480 --> 0:29:16.560 obviously you're thinking that in the future, this needs this 0:29:16.640 --> 0:29:19.280 is wrong, This need this needs to be punishable. Is 0:29:19.280 --> 0:29:21.040 it punishable by law in your mind or is this 0:29:21.080 --> 0:29:25.880 a social and cultural change that needs to happen or both? Yeah? 0:29:25.920 --> 0:29:29.640 I think both, much like what we have with the 0:29:29.680 --> 0:29:37.040 progression of other justice movements. Um. You know, for example, 0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:41.800 with gay rights, we've recently seen a change there in 0:29:41.840 --> 0:29:47.200 the last ten years. Um, now it's legally sanctioned that 0:29:47.280 --> 0:29:50.960 you can't Now it's it's illegal to be homophobic, essentially, 0:29:51.120 --> 0:29:53.640 you know that that's changed. Like, that's a radical change 0:29:53.680 --> 0:30:01.400 from ten years ago. Um, so actually it's unaccepted to 0:30:01.400 --> 0:30:05.720 be a homophobe. Legally, it's unaccepted to be a homophobe. 0:30:05.800 --> 0:30:09.360 So yeah, it should work both ways here as well 0:30:10.640 --> 0:30:13.480 with any injustice. Where do you think we are socially 0:30:13.600 --> 0:30:17.040 right now? Um? We always take the temperature here on 0:30:17.040 --> 0:30:20.320 on the tides and what you know, what's acceptable and 0:30:21.000 --> 0:30:23.920 cultural changes. What do you see what in in both 0:30:23.960 --> 0:30:26.800 your own community and without, Like, what are the where 0:30:26.840 --> 0:30:33.040 do you think we are culturally? Well? Truth passes through 0:30:33.080 --> 0:30:38.160 three stages. First it's mocked and ridiculed, then people fight you, 0:30:39.320 --> 0:30:42.719 and then it's seen as self evident so you end 0:30:42.800 --> 0:30:45.800 up winning. And right now, I think we're still in 0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:50.120 the mocking and ridiculing stage, and we're progressing pretty quickly 0:30:50.120 --> 0:30:53.760 into the fighting stage. You know, we're starting to see 0:30:53.800 --> 0:30:58.760 more and more acts of violence against vegans and against 0:30:58.840 --> 0:31:04.360 activists and against you know, this message and against this cause. 0:31:05.120 --> 0:31:07.840 We recently just had a woman who was killed at 0:31:07.840 --> 0:31:12.320 the front of the slaughterhouse in Toronto, in Canada, um 0:31:13.760 --> 0:31:20.360 for being at a peaceful vigil where they pay respect 0:31:20.440 --> 0:31:23.000 to the animals before they meet their fate going into 0:31:23.040 --> 0:31:26.280 the slaughterhouses by greeting them at the trucks and giving 0:31:26.280 --> 0:31:30.440 them water. And the truck driver who was bringing the 0:31:30.480 --> 0:31:34.560 pigs into the slaughterhouse ran this activist over with the 0:31:34.600 --> 0:31:38.760 truck and killed her. And there was no mercy shown 0:31:38.760 --> 0:31:44.560 by the truck driver and the activist. The the slaughterhouse 0:31:45.200 --> 0:31:49.360 workers and the people who are involved in that whole 0:31:49.400 --> 0:31:54.440 situation are defending the driver and have no remorse whatsoever. 0:31:55.480 --> 0:31:57.640 So that's a sign of us being in the fighting 0:31:57.680 --> 0:32:06.480 stage for sure. And my goal is to further, you know, 0:32:07.280 --> 0:32:10.000 further this down the track to the point where we 0:32:10.120 --> 0:32:15.280 are at the point where where at least, um, I 0:32:15.320 --> 0:32:17.640 want to get to a point where it's seen as 0:32:20.240 --> 0:32:24.560 just as much of a slur to make a bacon 0:32:24.640 --> 0:32:28.000 joke as it is to make a racist joke. You know. 0:32:28.480 --> 0:32:30.480 I'd like to see that kind of cultural change in 0:32:30.560 --> 0:32:35.680 society where animal cruelty or animal rights jokes are taken 0:32:35.720 --> 0:32:40.080 just as seriously and frowned upon just as as vigorously 0:32:40.880 --> 0:32:45.720 as these other um these are the things that are 0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:50.720 looked down upon, like racism, sexism, et cetera. And as 0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:53.560 you walk, you know, as you walk through life, and 0:32:53.640 --> 0:32:55.600 you know, obviously I don't know how how often you 0:32:55.640 --> 0:32:58.640 get to the states your pre COVID or plants post COVID. 0:32:58.720 --> 0:33:01.800 Do you? I think One of questions people listening this 0:33:01.840 --> 0:33:05.280 will happen? One I have pondered on is how is 0:33:05.320 --> 0:33:08.480 it how do you interact with people that don't that 0:33:08.600 --> 0:33:11.440 eat meat? Certainly I do you know? And other people? 0:33:11.520 --> 0:33:14.800 Is this something where and you're telling your followers that 0:33:14.960 --> 0:33:16.680 this needs to be you need to take a stand. 0:33:16.720 --> 0:33:19.000 If they have to say, a family member or a 0:33:19.040 --> 0:33:22.560 close friend that chooses to eat meat, should they disassociate? 0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:24.480 What you what do you tell people about how to 0:33:24.560 --> 0:33:28.000 interact in a world where you know us percent of 0:33:28.000 --> 0:33:30.920 the people are doing this and you guys are really 0:33:30.920 --> 0:33:34.360 wanting it to change. Well, the good thing is that 0:33:35.080 --> 0:33:39.520 percent of people that are doing this also usually say 0:33:39.600 --> 0:33:45.080 that they are against violations of animal rights. They usually 0:33:45.120 --> 0:33:51.200 say that they're pro animal rights. And if that's the case, 0:33:51.320 --> 0:33:53.440 then they really should be on board with what we 0:33:53.480 --> 0:33:55.720 have to say about this message, because it's just simply 0:33:55.760 --> 0:34:04.840 about actually maintaining their rights. And so I tell them 0:34:04.880 --> 0:34:07.400 to do the most compassionate and the most loving thing 0:34:07.440 --> 0:34:10.759 you could possibly do, which is to hold that person accountable. 0:34:10.800 --> 0:34:13.440 Whether it's your father, your mother, your brother, your sister, 0:34:14.120 --> 0:34:19.120 your friend, or a stranger for that matter, the best 0:34:19.160 --> 0:34:22.200 thing you can do, the most loving and compassionate thing 0:34:22.200 --> 0:34:26.760 that you can do, is to hold them accountable. People 0:34:26.800 --> 0:34:29.440 in your every vegan will tell will tell you that 0:34:29.480 --> 0:34:35.080 they wish they had gone vegan sooner, and they wish 0:34:35.120 --> 0:34:37.240 that someone had spoken to them in a direct manner 0:34:37.280 --> 0:34:40.160 about this issue, because that's usually what causes people to 0:34:40.280 --> 0:34:43.280 become vegan, is just to hear this message in a direct, 0:34:43.360 --> 0:34:47.719 no bullshit kind of way that cuts through all the prejudice. Yeah, 0:34:47.719 --> 0:34:49.200 and I mean the in the cubic truth and the 0:34:49.200 --> 0:34:51.319 thing that I saw, and this has been a year ago, 0:34:51.400 --> 0:34:53.839 but that these you guys hold up TVs and those 0:34:53.880 --> 0:34:57.120 TVs have slaughter house footage, factory farm footage. Can you 0:34:57.160 --> 0:35:00.160 describe that to people? You know, what what they going 0:35:00.200 --> 0:35:05.120 to see? Yeah, we'll show people standard practice footage of 0:35:05.160 --> 0:35:09.240 what happens in the meat, dairy neck industries on TV screens. 0:35:09.320 --> 0:35:14.600 The footage also contains free range, organic, grass fed, cage 0:35:14.680 --> 0:35:20.680 free UM farms. These farms labeled themselves as the most 0:35:20.719 --> 0:35:24.120 ideal in their field. So we are showing the best 0:35:24.120 --> 0:35:26.920 case scenario quote unquote of what happens in these farming 0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:31.479 industries on TV screens on the streets, so that people 0:35:31.560 --> 0:35:35.640 can see exactly you know, most people, like most people 0:35:35.640 --> 0:35:37.520 on the streets, like just came from a place where 0:35:37.520 --> 0:35:40.520 they just ate a burger or something like that, So 0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:43.920 they're literally getting to see what they contribute to on 0:35:43.960 --> 0:35:46.520 a daily basis. And if you have, you have a 0:35:46.560 --> 0:35:48.680 lot of people that join up immediately when they see 0:35:48.680 --> 0:35:50.879 this stuff. And that's say, oh man, i just came 0:35:50.880 --> 0:35:52.520 from a steakhouse and now that I'm seeing this, I 0:35:52.520 --> 0:35:54.800 want to help you and donate or join or whatever 0:35:54.840 --> 0:35:59.600 the case may be that that happens. And what are 0:35:59.680 --> 0:36:01.720 when many joins, what are they what are you asking 0:36:01.719 --> 0:36:04.719 them to do? Join these these join the protests or 0:36:04.800 --> 0:36:10.560 join the activism. Is there a thing eliminate your support 0:36:10.760 --> 0:36:15.480 of these violations, like just to stop abusing animals. So 0:36:15.600 --> 0:36:20.799 once that person can address that within themselves. But once 0:36:20.800 --> 0:36:24.960 they can stop buying meat, daring and eggs and stop, um, 0:36:25.040 --> 0:36:30.160 you know, stop abusing animals, uh, and you know, identify 0:36:30.200 --> 0:36:33.480 as vegan essentially because that's just part of the that's 0:36:33.480 --> 0:36:37.640 part of the process. Um, then they can join us 0:36:37.680 --> 0:36:39.600 as a volunteer and you know, get out into the 0:36:39.600 --> 0:36:42.360 streets with us and help us to amplify the voices 0:36:42.400 --> 0:36:46.040 of these innocent animals. Do you find that people have 0:36:46.239 --> 0:36:48.520 like a difficulty with that, Like say a normal person 0:36:48.600 --> 0:36:50.280 is walking down the street, they see this, they feel 0:36:50.280 --> 0:36:53.320 compelled to act. They make those changes in their life. 0:36:53.320 --> 0:36:56.200 And but the jump to like that street activism, the 0:36:56.280 --> 0:36:58.719 wearing of the masks, the holding the TV. Is that 0:36:59.160 --> 0:37:01.920 a tough thing for people to make that switch? Or 0:37:01.920 --> 0:37:03.879 do they do? You see that they often just jump 0:37:03.960 --> 0:37:06.520 into it because they feel they suddenly, like feel so 0:37:06.520 --> 0:37:11.280 strongly about what's going on. Well, it doesn't happen often 0:37:11.280 --> 0:37:15.359 that someone will go from meat eater who just came 0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:21.880 out of a steakhouse to jumping in the cube. Um. 0:37:21.880 --> 0:37:25.719 But if they do, they they I guess they see 0:37:25.719 --> 0:37:27.960 it clearly, They see that they need to do something 0:37:27.960 --> 0:37:29.840 about this issue and that they should have addressed this 0:37:29.880 --> 0:37:32.440 a long time ago, and sometimes it really hits people 0:37:33.080 --> 0:37:36.800 in a really hard way. It hits some people differently. 0:37:37.160 --> 0:37:40.040 You know, some people really get it, penny really drops 0:37:40.880 --> 0:37:44.080 and they feel like they have an obligation to do 0:37:44.120 --> 0:37:47.680 something about this immediately. And others drag their feet and 0:37:47.719 --> 0:37:50.440 they feel like they just need to consider this as 0:37:50.480 --> 0:37:54.520 a matter of food for thought, and they take years 0:37:54.719 --> 0:37:57.319 before they actually address the issue, and they may not 0:37:57.400 --> 0:38:01.080 even address it because the rest of society makes people 0:38:01.080 --> 0:38:05.759 feel comfortable in not addressing it. Yeah. I think we 0:38:05.880 --> 0:38:09.040 talk here a lot about the proximity ethic to food 0:38:09.160 --> 0:38:12.719 and your you know, your proximity to food means a lot. 0:38:12.880 --> 0:38:15.239 You know, it really means understanding where it comes from 0:38:15.320 --> 0:38:17.240 and it's impact on the world and on the earth 0:38:18.000 --> 0:38:21.440 and especially on the animals in our case. What do 0:38:21.560 --> 0:38:24.680 you what do you think about how people should eat, 0:38:24.960 --> 0:38:27.080 you know, how they should practice veganism. Do you guys 0:38:27.160 --> 0:38:30.279 talk about proximity to food or any any anything like 0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:38.800 that within the conversation? Not really, um, no, not really. 0:38:38.840 --> 0:38:43.960 We just want people to stop buying products and stop 0:38:44.680 --> 0:38:52.439 consuming products of torture and abuse. And you know, what 0:38:52.480 --> 0:38:54.479 people eat or how close they get to their food, 0:38:54.560 --> 0:38:57.520 or whether they grow their own food is completely up 0:38:57.520 --> 0:39:00.359 to them. We're not out there too, like guess we're 0:39:00.360 --> 0:39:03.360 not really interested in advocating for that. We're just we 0:39:03.360 --> 0:39:05.279 don't want to get caught up on those because there's 0:39:05.320 --> 0:39:07.920 so many different issues in the world, you know, we 0:39:08.040 --> 0:39:10.359 just want to focus on animal rights and making sure 0:39:10.400 --> 0:39:15.640 that humans can stop violating their rights and view them 0:39:15.640 --> 0:39:19.200 as actual victims. Once you get if you get people, 0:39:19.239 --> 0:39:22.520 there is there other places you send them to kind 0:39:22.560 --> 0:39:25.399 of learn how to make sure that they're watching all 0:39:25.440 --> 0:39:27.120 of that, because you know, going to the grocery store 0:39:27.160 --> 0:39:30.359 and binding vegetables or you know, however they get their food. 0:39:30.400 --> 0:39:32.759 At this point, you know, there's always an impact on 0:39:32.760 --> 0:39:36.359 the earth, right, is there places you send them like, hey, 0:39:36.400 --> 0:39:39.760 here's a good vegan you know, vegan group to follow, 0:39:39.880 --> 0:39:42.400 or here's a good vegan diet to follow with the 0:39:42.960 --> 0:39:45.160 follow up happen or is it just you feel like 0:39:45.200 --> 0:39:48.319 they'll find that once they find a lifestyle. There's an 0:39:48.320 --> 0:39:50.839 impact on the earth with everything we do, and if 0:39:50.840 --> 0:39:53.439 we're going to address one thing that impacts the earth, 0:39:53.480 --> 0:39:57.000 we we would then need to be consistent and address 0:39:57.080 --> 0:39:59.760 everything that we do that impacts the earth. And therefore 0:39:59.800 --> 0:40:02.279 we would be an environmentalist group as well as an 0:40:02.320 --> 0:40:06.880 animal rights group, and we're just simply not an environmentalist 0:40:06.880 --> 0:40:10.200 group where an animal rights group. And so we don't 0:40:10.200 --> 0:40:13.799 talk to people about environmental impact. We talked to people 0:40:13.840 --> 0:40:17.640 about animal rights. People do bring up the environment where 0:40:17.680 --> 0:40:23.520 it pertains to animal agriculture and agriculture itself, um, and 0:40:23.600 --> 0:40:28.120 we only entertain that conversation as far as the symptoms 0:40:28.239 --> 0:40:34.600 of the greater underlying problem, which is, yes, animal agriculture 0:40:34.719 --> 0:40:37.000 is very destructive to the planet. We used to talk 0:40:37.040 --> 0:40:39.359 a lot about that aspect in order to get people 0:40:39.400 --> 0:40:42.240 to take animal rights seriously. But what we didn't realize 0:40:42.280 --> 0:40:45.120 what we were doing was marginalizing the rights of animals 0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:49.279 because they should be. It should be seen as an 0:40:49.320 --> 0:40:54.480 injustice in and of itself, without having to say, hey, look, 0:40:54.520 --> 0:40:57.839 it's also an environmental issue. You know, that's actually disrespectful 0:40:57.880 --> 0:41:01.799 to the victims. So what we felt is it's more 0:41:01.840 --> 0:41:05.680 important to just say, look, yes, there is an environmental 0:41:05.719 --> 0:41:09.600 impact that's occurring as a result of farming, especially with 0:41:09.680 --> 0:41:15.520 animal farming, and that's just a symptom. However, regardless of 0:41:15.560 --> 0:41:18.759 how bad it is, it's still only a symptom of 0:41:18.840 --> 0:41:22.200 the underlying problem, which is that we continue to overlook 0:41:22.239 --> 0:41:25.880 the rights of animals. If we just simply take that seriously, 0:41:26.080 --> 0:41:29.440 then it would address these symptoms that we have. And yes, 0:41:29.480 --> 0:41:31.480 there are still problems that we need to address with 0:41:31.520 --> 0:41:35.759 farming itself, like with soy farming and corn farming and 0:41:35.920 --> 0:41:39.400 just in general farming in any of any plant, but 0:41:39.480 --> 0:41:42.160 that's a separate conversation. We're not here to address every 0:41:42.200 --> 0:41:46.319 issue in the world. There's issues with making clothes, and 0:41:46.800 --> 0:41:51.720 with making pharmaceutical medicines, and with making products in general, 0:41:51.800 --> 0:41:57.120 with packaging, with materials, with inks. There's a long list 0:41:57.120 --> 0:41:59.279 of issues that we could address in the world, but 0:41:59.320 --> 0:42:01.879 the list would continue to grow each day because there's 0:42:01.920 --> 0:42:04.480 so many issues that exist. So we want to focus 0:42:04.560 --> 0:42:07.719 on just the animal rights aspect, got it. So if 0:42:07.760 --> 0:42:10.200 you we boil it down to kind of we start 0:42:10.280 --> 0:42:14.000 talking about death and the way animals die and kind 0:42:14.040 --> 0:42:16.880 of the myriad of ways that this happens, both in 0:42:16.920 --> 0:42:19.400 the natural world and kind of the world that we've cultivated. 0:42:20.120 --> 0:42:22.120 How do you guys talk about death? You know, I've 0:42:22.120 --> 0:42:25.040 had other animal rights folks on and vegans on, and 0:42:25.080 --> 0:42:29.000 we talk about sentient life and and the meaning of 0:42:29.160 --> 0:42:31.840 sentient life and how we should interact with it and 0:42:31.880 --> 0:42:34.839 the kind of respect that we should have for it. 0:42:35.280 --> 0:42:37.839 Do you guys talk about that within animal rights, talk 0:42:37.880 --> 0:42:40.399 about what you know, what death is and when it's 0:42:40.400 --> 0:42:45.759 appropriate and our relationship to it as humans somewhat. Do 0:42:45.760 --> 0:42:48.879 you have a specific question about that? Yeah, I think 0:42:48.880 --> 0:42:51.279 this the specific question is how do you talk to 0:42:51.360 --> 0:42:55.560 your followers about animal death, you know, both human cause 0:42:55.600 --> 0:42:58.719 animal death and how animals die in the wild, and 0:42:58.719 --> 0:43:01.120 how all of how they can better understand all of 0:43:01.160 --> 0:43:04.640 that with when they're giving these rights to animals or 0:43:04.719 --> 0:43:09.040 affording them the rights that you'd like like them to have. Well, 0:43:09.120 --> 0:43:14.960 just well, just to clarify, is specifically just not taking 0:43:15.239 --> 0:43:19.360 away the rights of animals anymore into their inherent basic 0:43:20.000 --> 0:43:24.279 rights to liberty and bodily integrity. Um, we talk about 0:43:24.280 --> 0:43:28.160 animal death to the extent that it happens in nature obviously, 0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:33.319 you know nature is is um, Nature is nature. You 0:43:33.360 --> 0:43:38.040 know there's violations occurring in nature all the time. But 0:43:38.520 --> 0:43:40.680 what we want to address in terms of animal death 0:43:41.160 --> 0:43:45.960 is our cause of these violations. Humans claim to be 0:43:46.000 --> 0:43:51.120 the most civilized, the most intelligent, the most morally superior 0:43:51.320 --> 0:43:53.879 to all of the other beings on the planet. That's 0:43:53.880 --> 0:43:58.120 why when we refer to savage as you know, savage humans, 0:43:58.600 --> 0:44:01.160 humans who act in a savage nature, we refer to 0:44:01.239 --> 0:44:06.000 them as animals in order to you know, to disrespectfully 0:44:06.480 --> 0:44:11.279 say that they are savages. UM. So yeah, that's how 0:44:11.440 --> 0:44:14.759 nature works. But when it comes to humans, we talk 0:44:14.840 --> 0:44:21.400 to humans about their contribution and and and when those 0:44:21.520 --> 0:44:26.600 deaths that were causing a needless you know, that's where 0:44:26.640 --> 0:44:28.840 there's an issue. So we only talked to it as 0:44:28.920 --> 0:44:33.160 far as the needless death is concerned. How do you 0:44:33.239 --> 0:44:35.560 how do you get to needless? How do you define 0:44:35.600 --> 0:44:39.200 needless in these conversations? Is is it the I know, 0:44:39.280 --> 0:44:42.720 I understand you know, the broader context of factory farms 0:44:42.760 --> 0:44:46.080 and things like that, But how do you describe that 0:44:46.080 --> 0:44:48.440 that word? There is this needless death because that's something 0:44:48.480 --> 0:44:51.120 we've talked about on this show before and something I 0:44:51.200 --> 0:44:53.640 want people to understand from your perspective, like what is 0:44:54.239 --> 0:44:57.920 what's what's this idea maybe over an above factory farming, 0:44:58.040 --> 0:45:01.000 Like what is what is need death? You know, driving 0:45:01.000 --> 0:45:04.000 down a highway or going to the grocery store. Um, 0:45:04.040 --> 0:45:06.560 just like you said earlier, being a human causes death 0:45:06.560 --> 0:45:09.320 and lots of different ways, and so yes, so to 0:45:09.400 --> 0:45:12.480 find that needless part for it if you don't mind, sure, So. UM, 0:45:12.520 --> 0:45:16.600 I basically see it as everyone's right. Every human has 0:45:16.600 --> 0:45:21.719 the right to participate in society like everybody else, in 0:45:21.760 --> 0:45:26.239 the sense that we have these basic structures in society 0:45:26.280 --> 0:45:29.000 that are aimed to benefit all of us in a 0:45:29.120 --> 0:45:33.640 very basic way, things like driving a car, like everybody 0:45:33.640 --> 0:45:38.759 should have the right to transport around, having access to 0:45:38.760 --> 0:45:42.160 a hospital. So if you ever are injured or sick, 0:45:42.760 --> 0:45:45.359 you have the right to access the hospital and get 0:45:45.400 --> 0:45:48.960 the care that you need. Um, if you are ever 0:45:49.040 --> 0:45:52.160 in danger, you have the right to access the police 0:45:52.200 --> 0:45:55.960 force to protect you. If you are ever in danger 0:45:56.000 --> 0:45:58.960 of a fire, you have the right to access the 0:45:59.000 --> 0:46:02.839 fire department to assist you. You know. So all these 0:46:02.840 --> 0:46:06.440 things in society that have been laid out before us, 0:46:06.760 --> 0:46:09.640 I believe that every human has the right to access 0:46:09.719 --> 0:46:15.520 and use. However, none of these things that I've mentioned 0:46:17.080 --> 0:46:21.600 are things that are just frivolous and unnecessary. These are 0:46:21.640 --> 0:46:25.800 things that are that are essential when it comes to hunting, 0:46:26.840 --> 0:46:31.800 and I'll just specifically focus on that because Um, with hunting, 0:46:31.880 --> 0:46:35.359 there is an argument that's been thrown around that it's 0:46:35.440 --> 0:46:39.320 for conservation or it's for survival purposes, that it's being done. 0:46:39.920 --> 0:46:44.520 The question really needs to be asked to yourself. Is 0:46:44.520 --> 0:46:48.759 it really necessary? Do you really need to go out 0:46:48.760 --> 0:46:52.960 and shoot a deer in the you know, in the forest, 0:46:53.880 --> 0:46:59.960 or can you source your calories and your nutrition elsewhere? 0:47:00.560 --> 0:47:05.520 Can you get your nutrition from plants, you know, without 0:47:05.600 --> 0:47:09.480 intentionally causing harm, intentionally taking the life of an animal. 0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:13.719 So it's about what systems were supporting what kind of 0:47:13.719 --> 0:47:18.240 a world we want to create? And needless just simply 0:47:18.280 --> 0:47:22.640 means are you actually in a survival situation or not? 0:47:23.880 --> 0:47:27.360 Do you have another option right now or not? Because 0:47:27.400 --> 0:47:32.080 if you can go into a supermarket and you can 0:47:32.120 --> 0:47:37.879 buy yourself some rice, potatoes, greens, beans, whatever, then you 0:47:38.200 --> 0:47:41.000 certainly are not in a survival situation where you have 0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:44.520 no other option. You know, sure are there other That's 0:47:44.560 --> 0:47:45.880 one thing I wanted to get to with you. Just 0:47:45.920 --> 0:47:48.200 have you run through whom you might have to be 0:47:48.239 --> 0:47:51.439 exhaustive here, but that's the thing you talk about conservation 0:47:51.840 --> 0:47:55.799 and and you know, hunting to feed yourself. Are there 0:47:55.840 --> 0:47:58.120 other things that you've heard? Because I was listening to 0:47:59.040 --> 0:48:02.160 um around a prominent vegan earthling ed talk about your 0:48:02.239 --> 0:48:06.080 hunting and altruism and how some hunters would label themselves, 0:48:06.040 --> 0:48:10.280 is you know, respectful and even sympathetic to the animal 0:48:10.360 --> 0:48:12.680 by killing them and it's a cleaner death when you 0:48:12.800 --> 0:48:15.200 do it, and these types of things. Do you have 0:48:15.239 --> 0:48:17.760 other arguments that you've heard, then you've you've thought about 0:48:17.760 --> 0:48:20.160 why you don't believe them to be true in terms 0:48:20.200 --> 0:48:29.319 of hunting. That's what you just referenced, is pretty much it. Yeah, 0:48:29.400 --> 0:48:30.920 that's pretty much it. I think I think it was 0:48:30.920 --> 0:48:37.800 addressing Joe Rogan because Joe Rogan, yes, he tends to Um, 0:48:37.960 --> 0:48:40.960 he tends to share these arguments that we commonly hear 0:48:40.960 --> 0:48:44.520 from hunters, So I think he addressed that pretty well. 0:48:44.560 --> 0:48:48.919 And um, that's pretty much what I hear as well 0:48:49.000 --> 0:48:52.600 on the streets that you know, hunting. If if hunters 0:48:52.600 --> 0:48:55.720 see themselves as somehow altruistic and the killing of an animal, 0:48:55.760 --> 0:48:57.759 that that's just not on the table for you. That 0:48:57.760 --> 0:49:01.400 that's that's certainly see in many cases, even more so 0:49:01.480 --> 0:49:05.399 than in many cases, they view themselves as even more 0:49:05.480 --> 0:49:15.760 virtuous than someone who wants to abstain from from from 0:49:16.040 --> 0:49:20.680 violating animal rights altogether, from being vegan essentially, gotcha. Yeah, 0:49:20.680 --> 0:49:24.399 I mean here we we often talk about this exact thing, 0:49:24.480 --> 0:49:27.160 and I say often that there's a lot of things 0:49:27.200 --> 0:49:30.120 about veganism and even animal rights that I certainly agree with. 0:49:30.160 --> 0:49:31.640 And I even when I was talking to some of 0:49:31.640 --> 0:49:34.799 the activists outside our show that I mentioned last year, 0:49:34.840 --> 0:49:36.959 we talked about that when we started by saying listen, 0:49:37.000 --> 0:49:40.040 factory farms. Yeah, I'm with you, that's not something. Again, 0:49:40.080 --> 0:49:44.600 we speak here about the fair kill and proximity ethics 0:49:44.640 --> 0:49:46.360 and things like that that we want to be close 0:49:46.400 --> 0:49:50.640 to our food and and go back to understanding death. 0:49:50.719 --> 0:49:53.040 Death is caused by you know, many of our actions, 0:49:53.080 --> 0:49:56.719 and you talk about like intentional causation in terms of 0:49:57.520 --> 0:50:02.160 death and humanity, and for me, we have to I 0:50:02.200 --> 0:50:04.040 try to weigh that the idea that we are these 0:50:04.080 --> 0:50:07.680 consumption engines and we are affecting habitat we are we 0:50:07.760 --> 0:50:10.760 are planting monocultures to feed ourselves, and those green beans 0:50:10.760 --> 0:50:14.800 that come from the grocery store are coming at expense 0:50:14.840 --> 0:50:18.320 of some animals somewhere, no matter, no matter what. Really, 0:50:18.440 --> 0:50:21.719 and so I'm I'm just weighing my options. Is kind 0:50:21.719 --> 0:50:24.359 of how I start the conversation. Is that a place 0:50:24.400 --> 0:50:27.200 where you can start the conversation in terms of you're 0:50:27.239 --> 0:50:31.200 talking about the needless. Do we need to do it? No? 0:50:31.480 --> 0:50:34.080 But is this another way to be closer to the 0:50:34.120 --> 0:50:37.040 death we cause, rather than to just shut it away 0:50:37.040 --> 0:50:43.320 and say that intentional causation is not there for us. Well, 0:50:43.360 --> 0:50:47.520 again that yes, those green beans cause death. They caused 0:50:47.600 --> 0:50:50.160 some death. How many deaths do they cause? Though it's 0:50:50.200 --> 0:50:52.920 not certain? Is it? Yeah, that's the That's kind of 0:50:52.960 --> 0:50:55.240 my point though, the point is that when it's not certain, 0:50:55.280 --> 0:50:57.520 when I kill an elk, it's one dead elk, and 0:50:57.560 --> 0:51:00.560 I am certain of how many elk died, And if 0:51:00.600 --> 0:51:03.719 I eat green beans, I'm not certain of what happened there, 0:51:03.800 --> 0:51:07.440 whether it was whether field mice died or whether they didn't. 0:51:07.440 --> 0:51:09.520 They might not have, but I don't know that. You know, 0:51:09.680 --> 0:51:12.760 there's no way for me to know. And it's possible 0:51:12.800 --> 0:51:14.719 that they didn't, right, It's but you know, it's very 0:51:14.719 --> 0:51:16.799 possible that they didn't, but I would never there's no 0:51:16.840 --> 0:51:18.479 way for me to know. So if I was being 0:51:18.600 --> 0:51:21.080 you know, if I was polarized, and I only wanted 0:51:21.120 --> 0:51:23.200 to see my own worldview in this case, how would said, Well, 0:51:23.760 --> 0:51:26.080 you know it's probably likely that hundreds and I know 0:51:26.200 --> 0:51:28.400 Joe Rogan said this before, hundreds of field mice might 0:51:28.440 --> 0:51:31.520 have died and rodents, and you know, you have combines 0:51:31.560 --> 0:51:34.680 that are killing animals, and I might say, well, hundreds 0:51:34.680 --> 0:51:36.480 have died. You might say, well, it might have been zero. 0:51:36.760 --> 0:51:39.319 But the point I would make is that you just 0:51:39.440 --> 0:51:44.799 don't know, um. And so the thing is, we do know, 0:51:45.960 --> 0:51:49.280 we do know somewhat what happens. We know the process 0:51:49.280 --> 0:51:51.680 of what happens on arm For example, with green beans, 0:51:52.520 --> 0:51:56.680 you mentioned combined harvests. Combine harvests are very loud machine 0:51:57.040 --> 0:52:00.840 pieces of machinery, and they're very big and loud. Rodents 0:52:00.880 --> 0:52:04.239 like mice are not completely stupid. They're smart enough to 0:52:04.320 --> 0:52:09.319 know that when there's allowed thing that is coming towards them, 0:52:09.400 --> 0:52:10.960 they're going to run away. They're not going to stick 0:52:11.000 --> 0:52:13.600 around and get mulched up by it. So it's very 0:52:13.719 --> 0:52:16.319 rare that a mice is going to stick around and 0:52:16.400 --> 0:52:20.760 get killed by combined harvester. So at best, what's happening 0:52:21.000 --> 0:52:24.480 is some rodents might get killed and some bugs might 0:52:24.480 --> 0:52:27.560 get killed, and the farmer themselves might also be a 0:52:27.640 --> 0:52:32.279 hunter who just goes out and kills animals who the 0:52:32.360 --> 0:52:36.520 hunter might want to kill for whatever reason. So you're 0:52:36.600 --> 0:52:39.479 kind of supporting that when you buy food from that hunt, 0:52:39.520 --> 0:52:43.479 from that farm. These things are all speculation. However, they're 0:52:43.480 --> 0:52:47.759 not certain, Like I asked you, you know, it's it's 0:52:47.800 --> 0:52:50.239 not certain that it will happen. You're not sure. It's 0:52:50.280 --> 0:52:52.799 possible that there won't be any deaths at all with 0:52:52.840 --> 0:52:56.760 those snow peas that you're buying. With hunting a deer, 0:52:57.120 --> 0:52:59.920 that's not possible. It's not possible that you're going to 0:53:00.120 --> 0:53:04.879 return home with a dead deer in your truck. And yeah, 0:53:04.880 --> 0:53:08.120 there's there's definitely a deer there. Yeah, Yeah, you're right 0:53:08.160 --> 0:53:11.640 about that. There's definitely a deer there. Yes, And that's 0:53:11.680 --> 0:53:13.399 the argument I think you're you know, the point I'm 0:53:13.400 --> 0:53:15.360 making is the same kind of point you're making, it 0:53:15.440 --> 0:53:18.279 just ends in a different way. I mean, I do 0:53:18.440 --> 0:53:21.560 believe that the proximity ethic. And I'll tell you that 0:53:21.640 --> 0:53:23.680 hunting has led me to garden. It's led me to 0:53:23.800 --> 0:53:26.080 want to collect rain, it's led it's led me to 0:53:26.120 --> 0:53:27.919 want to kind of take this tiny little half acre 0:53:27.960 --> 0:53:29.600 I have in Montana and turn it into a more 0:53:29.600 --> 0:53:32.400 fruitful place for me. And that all goes back to 0:53:32.440 --> 0:53:36.279 that proximity ethic. To that if I know, if I 0:53:36.280 --> 0:53:38.600 have a relationship with my food all the way around, 0:53:38.760 --> 0:53:41.040 I have a better respect for every part of it. 0:53:41.280 --> 0:53:43.920 And even if the combine doesn't kill the mice, the 0:53:44.000 --> 0:53:47.719 combine is taken away habitat for that. For for many animals, 0:53:48.400 --> 0:53:51.600 especially mono culture is everything we do in society takes 0:53:51.600 --> 0:53:54.839 away from the habitat of animals. So this argument could 0:53:54.840 --> 0:53:57.000 be made for everything we do in society. I don't 0:53:57.000 --> 0:54:01.239 know why it has to be extra focused on the 0:54:01.360 --> 0:54:04.560 agricultural aspect of what we do in society. You can 0:54:04.640 --> 0:54:07.640 do it. You can do with driving down the highway. 0:54:07.960 --> 0:54:10.759 There's potential deaths to animals, or pretend. I don't want 0:54:10.760 --> 0:54:14.120 to say potential deaths, because it's really when you kill someone, 0:54:14.200 --> 0:54:18.640 it's not causing death. You're actually you're murdering them. That's 0:54:18.640 --> 0:54:21.640 the correct word. So if you're if you're murdering or 0:54:21.719 --> 0:54:27.240 killing animals needlessly um in the production of let's say rice, 0:54:27.760 --> 0:54:30.360 but you're not doing it intentionally. And in fact, we 0:54:30.360 --> 0:54:33.480 don't know the numbers of animals that we're killing in 0:54:33.560 --> 0:54:37.640 that process because it varies from farm to farm, and 0:54:37.640 --> 0:54:43.200 and it certainly isn't going to be as um as 0:54:43.400 --> 0:54:47.600 violent or as brutal in terms of the numbers that 0:54:47.640 --> 0:54:50.440 we cause to be killed, as it would be in meat, 0:54:50.480 --> 0:54:53.720 dairy and eggs or any other practice. Even with hunting, 0:54:53.760 --> 0:54:55.719 I would say, because I've had this argument before with 0:54:55.800 --> 0:55:01.759 hunters hunting versus you know, buying your produced from the supermarket. 0:55:02.560 --> 0:55:06.000 And the point I'm trying to make here is that 0:55:06.480 --> 0:55:11.040 there are some violations or some animal deaths that are 0:55:11.080 --> 0:55:15.920 going to occur when we just live our lives generally, 0:55:16.600 --> 0:55:18.960 and that's no excuse to then go and hunt or 0:55:19.000 --> 0:55:21.959 get closer to the death of I don't think that 0:55:22.239 --> 0:55:25.120 it's an argument to then say, yes, there is some 0:55:26.280 --> 0:55:30.279 killing that's going on in the sourcing of your rice, 0:55:30.719 --> 0:55:32.600 so therefore I'd like to go and kill a deer 0:55:32.640 --> 0:55:37.239 myself instead of going to get that rice. Well, yeah, 0:55:37.239 --> 0:55:40.640 I mean, I'm I'm growing tomatoes in my backyard and 0:55:40.680 --> 0:55:43.160 carrots in my backyard and doing everything I can to 0:55:43.880 --> 0:55:46.280 understand the impact, you know, And that's that's the choice 0:55:46.320 --> 0:55:48.960 that everyone has to make, Like what death do you 0:55:48.960 --> 0:55:51.720 want to inflict and how much knowledge about that death 0:55:51.800 --> 0:55:54.360 would you like to have, you know, and the so 0:55:54.480 --> 0:55:58.799 to the point you're making that you know, my my 0:55:58.920 --> 0:56:02.000 debate there. The retort I would have is that what 0:56:02.040 --> 0:56:04.840 I said earlier simply that proximity, you know, to me, 0:56:06.040 --> 0:56:09.319 I think we we can be divergent about, you know, 0:56:09.440 --> 0:56:11.400 the idea that I'm killing an elk and that's murder 0:56:11.560 --> 0:56:13.640 or to me that's that's a lot of different things, 0:56:13.640 --> 0:56:16.800 and certainly can I can explain some of those um 0:56:16.840 --> 0:56:20.799 but I think where we have to continue to kind of, 0:56:21.480 --> 0:56:24.879 you know, work at this conversation is to say that 0:56:25.080 --> 0:56:28.640 I can't. I seem way more value in knowing where 0:56:28.640 --> 0:56:31.000 all my food come from, not just to meat, but 0:56:31.160 --> 0:56:35.799 the vegetables. And to say that killing an animal would 0:56:35.840 --> 0:56:38.480 allow me to know exactly where the animal lived, what 0:56:38.600 --> 0:56:42.560 it ate, how much habitat it used, you know, what 0:56:42.640 --> 0:56:45.920 it thinks, that where it has sex, how it reproduces, 0:56:45.960 --> 0:56:48.719 how many of those animals need to be on one 0:56:48.800 --> 0:56:52.080 landscape with the carrying capacity of landscape, might be the 0:56:52.080 --> 0:56:55.600 health of that ecosystem that that lives in our cohabitation, 0:56:55.680 --> 0:56:57.920 the elements of the way that we interact with those animals. 0:56:58.520 --> 0:57:01.400 That knowledge is, that knowledge is really important to me. 0:57:01.560 --> 0:57:04.239 And I think I think we here agreeing on this. 0:57:04.400 --> 0:57:06.319 I think we agree on this, and I've had other 0:57:06.320 --> 0:57:08.360 conversations where I think it's like we're agreeing on some 0:57:08.440 --> 0:57:12.920 of the core principles of this and we just diverge 0:57:12.920 --> 0:57:16.160 at the point where I kill the animal. Does that 0:57:16.200 --> 0:57:18.320 sound I understand that you want to get closer to 0:57:18.320 --> 0:57:22.280 your food, like I. Of course that's a great thing 0:57:22.320 --> 0:57:24.360 that you want to do, Ben, But what objection do 0:57:24.400 --> 0:57:29.080 you have to being vegan? None? Zero, I have. I 0:57:29.120 --> 0:57:34.320 applaud vegans. I do. So what's why why aren't you 0:57:34.560 --> 0:57:38.800 vegan at the moment? Well, because I I feel one, 0:57:39.280 --> 0:57:41.600 hunting is a lot more to me than just the meat. 0:57:41.920 --> 0:57:44.600 It is enriched my life in ways that you know 0:57:44.640 --> 0:57:46.800 that I'm sure hard to explain for somebody that's never 0:57:46.840 --> 0:57:51.840 done them. But I am an omnivore. Like I My diet, 0:57:51.920 --> 0:57:54.640 my nutrition, my physical and mental health I feel come 0:57:54.680 --> 0:57:58.280 from my omnivory and and I enjoy meat. I enjoy 0:57:58.360 --> 0:58:01.880 hunting it, but I also enjoy vegetable I enjoy carrots. 0:58:01.920 --> 0:58:03.640 But if somebody want to make wants to make the 0:58:03.760 --> 0:58:07.840 choice to cut out the animal part, I fully support 0:58:07.880 --> 0:58:10.680 that because I think that's that's that's looking at the 0:58:10.760 --> 0:58:13.040 nuance of our world, that's looking at how we eat 0:58:13.080 --> 0:58:15.480 and our impact on the world. And the thing I 0:58:15.520 --> 0:58:18.720 like about vegans animal rights folks is that you're actively 0:58:18.760 --> 0:58:21.800 looking at how you impact the world. And that isn't 0:58:21.800 --> 0:58:24.480 a thing that if we all did it tomorrow, the 0:58:24.520 --> 0:58:26.280 world would be a better place. So when I think 0:58:26.320 --> 0:58:29.560 about animal rights and veganism, I don't I don't have this. 0:58:29.880 --> 0:58:31.720 The only negative feeling I have in my head is 0:58:31.760 --> 0:58:34.080 the way you think about me. But the way I 0:58:34.160 --> 0:58:35.959 think about you is like, man, it's cool to see 0:58:37.200 --> 0:58:39.320 that the way and I told the folks that were 0:58:39.320 --> 0:58:41.560 protesting outside of our show the same thing. It's just like, 0:58:41.720 --> 0:58:44.880 it's cool to see this happening because this activism, as 0:58:44.880 --> 0:58:48.720 you said before, is something that people need to hear it. 0:58:49.040 --> 0:58:52.160 They need to hear that that this this this is 0:58:52.200 --> 0:58:59.000 out there. There wouldn't be the reason why um vegans 0:58:59.040 --> 0:59:04.520 and hunters have an issue with like the respect thing 0:59:05.160 --> 0:59:13.280 is because like, yeah, of course there's nothing to respect 0:59:13.400 --> 0:59:18.760 in needlessly killing an animal or anything. And of course 0:59:18.840 --> 0:59:22.480 there's nothing to lack respect in over here with what 0:59:22.520 --> 0:59:25.160 we're doing because we're just trying to avoid harming animals. 0:59:26.280 --> 0:59:29.800 How is that like, of course that's respectable, Like there's 0:59:29.840 --> 0:59:32.800 not to lack respect about that. I mean, like I 0:59:32.800 --> 0:59:34.880 said that the thame things that I don't the things 0:59:34.880 --> 0:59:37.560 that I differ. Where I diverge is the way, you know, 0:59:37.760 --> 0:59:40.080 it is the ideology, the way that it's spoken about, 0:59:40.080 --> 0:59:43.640 the way that it's you know, the worldview that you have. 0:59:43.760 --> 0:59:48.200 The calling animal, you know, hunters murderers really makes it, 0:59:48.560 --> 0:59:51.080 you know, an argument. It makes it a thing where 0:59:51.120 --> 0:59:54.240 we're disagreeing on that one that one element of this, 0:59:54.640 --> 0:59:56.720 and I get it, and we could certainly will certainly 0:59:56.720 --> 0:59:58.360 continue to talk about that because I think it's an 0:59:58.360 --> 1:00:01.360 important conversation and so you know, I stand with what 1:00:01.400 --> 1:00:04.760 I said there. I I do anybody who was trying 1:00:04.800 --> 1:00:07.680 to eat differently, trying to move through the world differently, 1:00:07.840 --> 1:00:10.400 understanding all the impacts that they have in the world. 1:00:10.440 --> 1:00:14.080 I think anyone that's doing that should be applauded, um, 1:00:14.200 --> 1:00:17.360 no matter what and what an understanding. Of course, I 1:00:17.520 --> 1:00:20.000 like anyone who gets closer to their food and thinks 1:00:20.000 --> 1:00:22.360 about the impact that they're having. Like I said, you know, 1:00:22.800 --> 1:00:26.680 with your mission to get closer to your food, I'm 1:00:26.720 --> 1:00:33.800 just very blown away by the fact that you like, 1:00:33.920 --> 1:00:37.200 why don't you just want to grow all of your produce? 1:00:38.160 --> 1:00:40.240 Because that seems like what you want to do is 1:00:40.240 --> 1:00:43.400 get closer to your food and of growing food and 1:00:44.120 --> 1:00:48.400 any anybody that's grown I answered that question. Um, this 1:00:48.480 --> 1:00:50.280 happens with my family. My dad was talking to me 1:00:50.280 --> 1:00:52.880 about this the other day. He has a huge garden, um, 1:00:53.040 --> 1:00:54.760 much bigger than the one I'm trying to cultivate here 1:00:54.760 --> 1:00:58.160 in Montanics. It's relatively new, you know, we had we 1:00:58.200 --> 1:01:00.920 started with wanting to have a garden, and we have 1:01:00.960 --> 1:01:03.280 a small half acre, and my dad has a larger 1:01:03.320 --> 1:01:06.040 property that his might be a better example. And as 1:01:06.080 --> 1:01:08.240 he starts to grow his food, he starts to see 1:01:08.320 --> 1:01:11.440 that the animals are encroaching on what he's growing, and 1:01:11.480 --> 1:01:15.240 so he has a choice to allow the deer. You 1:01:15.240 --> 1:01:17.680 know that he had squirrels and his fruit trees and 1:01:17.720 --> 1:01:22.160 all these other things. He he's very respectful about animals themselves, 1:01:22.920 --> 1:01:24.440 and so he had a choice to make. And I'll 1:01:24.480 --> 1:01:25.960 have a choice to make too, because I have voles 1:01:26.000 --> 1:01:27.640 in my yard and different things that would come and 1:01:27.640 --> 1:01:29.080 eat my garden. So you have a choice to make 1:01:29.080 --> 1:01:31.960 even there. Um, I may a retreat to my backyard 1:01:32.040 --> 1:01:34.120 and only eat those vegetables, but I'll still have a 1:01:34.200 --> 1:01:37.560 choice to make. When nature comes for my food? Do 1:01:37.680 --> 1:01:39.560 I kill them? Do I drive them away? Do I 1:01:39.640 --> 1:01:42.360 poison them? Do I plant two thirds more food than 1:01:42.400 --> 1:01:44.560 I need so they can have food as well? I 1:01:44.560 --> 1:01:46.600 don't have enough yard for that, I don't. You know, 1:01:46.680 --> 1:01:48.680 that's a that would be a luxury that I don't have. 1:01:48.840 --> 1:01:51.480 And so as as I think about that, I know 1:01:51.560 --> 1:01:54.960 I'm going to run into nature either way. Um. So 1:01:55.000 --> 1:01:58.360 there's no version of gardening or or consumption that doesn't 1:01:58.360 --> 1:02:01.240 involve some struggle with nature. So what I do with 1:02:01.320 --> 1:02:03.640 hunting is I go out and meet that struggle and 1:02:03.640 --> 1:02:06.600 take part in it. And I've seen animals die. I've 1:02:06.600 --> 1:02:09.280 watched them as they their life left them, and then 1:02:09.360 --> 1:02:11.600 I eat them, and I think about that when I'm 1:02:11.600 --> 1:02:14.920 eating them, And to me, you know that that tragic knowledge, 1:02:14.920 --> 1:02:17.920 that knowledge of life and death helps me inform what 1:02:17.960 --> 1:02:19.640 I do in my garden, whether I kill the voles 1:02:19.720 --> 1:02:21.760 or let them live and eat my radishes or my 1:02:21.840 --> 1:02:24.880 carrots and so on. So that's just a battle that 1:02:25.040 --> 1:02:28.000 that we have all the time. Um. Now, I find 1:02:28.000 --> 1:02:33.360 it really I kind of find it disturbing that you 1:02:36.080 --> 1:02:39.880 you went through the options of how to address that 1:02:40.000 --> 1:02:47.680 problem with these wild animals encroaching on your farm. Um, 1:02:47.720 --> 1:02:52.120 without mentioning one very obvious option of just putting up 1:02:52.160 --> 1:02:55.800 a fence. Oh yeah, fence is my and I would 1:02:55.800 --> 1:02:57.480 I like to say my dad has a larger garden 1:02:57.520 --> 1:02:59.439 and he has a big fence around it. That doesn't 1:02:59.480 --> 1:03:02.160 stop score earls from getting into his fruit trees, that 1:03:02.200 --> 1:03:05.920 doesn't stop bugs, that doesn't stop voles, that doesn't stop 1:03:06.000 --> 1:03:08.360 many wild creatures that are going to find their way 1:03:08.360 --> 1:03:10.880 to get to that food source. Um. And because that's 1:03:10.880 --> 1:03:13.560 just how they're wired, that's how they're conditioned. And so, 1:03:13.600 --> 1:03:15.480 like I said, I haven't found a situation where I 1:03:15.480 --> 1:03:17.040 can put up a fence or put up a bubble 1:03:17.520 --> 1:03:21.320 and completely contain my food source from the outside world. 1:03:21.400 --> 1:03:24.439 I just I haven't found it. And if there was, boy, 1:03:24.480 --> 1:03:27.560 I'd take it all day. Have you seen greenhouses? Well, yeah, 1:03:27.560 --> 1:03:29.560 you have greenhouses. You can't grow I mean you can't 1:03:29.600 --> 1:03:32.480 have eight hundred square foot greenhouse in your yard. I 1:03:32.480 --> 1:03:35.160 mean you have to have open air garden. You can't 1:03:35.200 --> 1:03:37.160 just live all foods you grew in a green und 1:03:37.360 --> 1:03:39.320 square feet? Is that how big of a farm you're 1:03:39.360 --> 1:03:43.120 trying to so you so what's your solution? Here? Is 1:03:43.160 --> 1:03:45.360 your solution that we would just have a giant greenhouse 1:03:45.400 --> 1:03:47.480 and that's where we grow all of our food. No, 1:03:47.600 --> 1:03:49.440 I didn't realize you were trying to achieve such a 1:03:49.480 --> 1:03:52.960 large operation with just sourcing your own food. Eight hundred 1:03:53.000 --> 1:03:55.800 square feet seems really large. I'm not gonna argue with 1:03:55.800 --> 1:03:58.720 the square feet. That was completely hypothetical, but I mean 1:03:58.760 --> 1:04:01.160 we get back to all I can say is I've 1:04:01.240 --> 1:04:06.480 never gotten to a point where my food and overall 1:04:06.520 --> 1:04:08.919 my activity throughout you know, my life in the world 1:04:09.000 --> 1:04:11.919 doesn't come up against nature itself and those animals, whether 1:04:11.960 --> 1:04:14.640 it's driving in a car and hitting a squirrel or 1:04:14.680 --> 1:04:16.720 being in my backyard and trying to grow something and 1:04:16.720 --> 1:04:19.440 trying to work through that and understand that I have 1:04:19.480 --> 1:04:21.320 a lot of luxuries in my life. I have a 1:04:21.360 --> 1:04:25.000 pretty good salary, have good money. I can afford these things, 1:04:25.000 --> 1:04:26.720 and I can't imagine somebody that was trying to grow 1:04:26.680 --> 1:04:30.400 their own food that couldn't afford um fences or other 1:04:30.440 --> 1:04:33.720 things that that took money. So well, I would just 1:04:33.760 --> 1:04:36.360 say that no matter what the other options are out there, 1:04:36.440 --> 1:04:41.760 I haven't found one that would sustain my family. Grow, 1:04:41.880 --> 1:04:44.160 you know, make sure the ecosystem, even the tiny little 1:04:44.160 --> 1:04:47.240 half figure I have is still intact and functioning without 1:04:47.360 --> 1:04:51.200 some sort of encroachment by nature. It just it's when 1:04:51.240 --> 1:04:53.000 there's food there, the animals are gonna come for one 1:04:53.040 --> 1:04:59.919 way or the other. Seems to me, it would seem 1:05:00.000 --> 1:05:02.760 to me they're dealing with a little bit of encroachment, 1:05:03.800 --> 1:05:09.080 would be would be okay in the biggest scheme of things. Yeah, 1:05:09.120 --> 1:05:11.880 you're getting your calories. I talked to him successfully. I 1:05:11.920 --> 1:05:13.560 talked to my dad about that a little bit too, 1:05:13.600 --> 1:05:16.400 and he said I could. He's like, there's an option 1:05:16.440 --> 1:05:19.200 where I could plant two thirds more trees than I need, 1:05:19.400 --> 1:05:22.080 or there's options. There's certainly things out there you could do. 1:05:22.680 --> 1:05:24.840 But again, those things are I mean, those are tough 1:05:24.880 --> 1:05:27.840 to calculate, you know, for anyone trying to achieve this 1:05:27.920 --> 1:05:31.880 proximity to all of their food. And so it's I mean, 1:05:31.920 --> 1:05:34.000 there are many people in the world who are eating 1:05:34.080 --> 1:05:37.000 their calories from the food that they grow. This isn't 1:05:37.040 --> 1:05:40.000 a new concept. This is a very age old sure 1:05:40.280 --> 1:05:43.320 thing that humans are doing. Is very possible for us 1:05:43.360 --> 1:05:45.919 to source our calories from plant foods that we grow. 1:05:46.360 --> 1:05:48.560 Of course, and of course where I come in as 1:05:48.560 --> 1:05:51.760 an activist because it's basically a message of having a 1:05:51.800 --> 1:05:56.320 moral obligation to do something about this situation and to 1:05:56.720 --> 1:06:01.760 avoid murdering animals needlessly. Where we sure, I mean, I 1:06:02.120 --> 1:06:04.400 like that idea, I agree with It's like I don't. 1:06:05.120 --> 1:06:07.280 There's nothing that you know. Part of what we do 1:06:07.360 --> 1:06:08.800 here at this company, and part of what we talked 1:06:08.800 --> 1:06:12.240 about on this show is this idea that we need 1:06:12.280 --> 1:06:15.840 to eat and we are omnivory is important, is at 1:06:15.920 --> 1:06:19.120 least important to me, you know, the human history of 1:06:19.160 --> 1:06:21.880 how we how our diet is constructed is is something 1:06:21.920 --> 1:06:23.880 that I don't know a lot about him, no dietitian. 1:06:23.960 --> 1:06:27.720 But in my own life, my family enjoys this meat. 1:06:27.800 --> 1:06:31.240 And I know I know for sure that if I 1:06:31.320 --> 1:06:33.400 take that one let's say, just call an elk, the 1:06:33.440 --> 1:06:35.920 one thing that I take off the mountain, that there's 1:06:35.960 --> 1:06:39.040 two hundred pounds of meat there, that that consumption is 1:06:39.040 --> 1:06:41.280 going to mitigate any other consumption I might do from 1:06:41.280 --> 1:06:43.600 the grocery store or from any other place where I 1:06:43.640 --> 1:06:46.520 don't know where. I'm not sure what the tally of 1:06:46.560 --> 1:06:49.520 deaths are. UM, and so that's one element. The other 1:06:49.520 --> 1:06:53.000 element we discussed around the garden and so UM I've 1:06:53.040 --> 1:06:56.800 definitely thought about this um thought about how is it 1:06:56.880 --> 1:06:59.240 possible to go vegan and really feel like I have 1:06:59.280 --> 1:07:02.720 a clean conscience. I just don't think it is um 1:07:03.520 --> 1:07:05.800 about what you're voting for. You know, you're out there 1:07:06.400 --> 1:07:11.200 choosing rice, you're choosing beans, you're choosing bananas, and you're saying, 1:07:11.280 --> 1:07:14.000 I want a world where this is what food is, 1:07:14.440 --> 1:07:18.840 instead of choosing for animals to be violated and and 1:07:18.960 --> 1:07:22.040 promoting to the world that animals are in fact food 1:07:22.400 --> 1:07:26.160 when they don't need to be in non survival situations, 1:07:26.240 --> 1:07:30.280 and these other things that you've mentioned, like enjoyment. Enjoyment 1:07:30.360 --> 1:07:32.680 is in an argument, whether you and your family enjoy 1:07:32.760 --> 1:07:35.880 the flesh of a dea has no bearing over the 1:07:35.920 --> 1:07:40.360 moral consideration of that dea. And no, I mean the 1:07:40.400 --> 1:07:43.960 moral considerations happened prior to the eating of the flesh. 1:07:44.240 --> 1:07:47.320 I mean the moral consideration is I'm not. I'm not. 1:07:48.440 --> 1:07:50.120 I'm not somebody who does who just goes out and 1:07:50.120 --> 1:07:52.200 shoots it and drags it and puts into my truck 1:07:52.200 --> 1:07:54.600 and drives away and thinks that's mine. That you know, 1:07:54.640 --> 1:07:56.920 the world owes me this, dear. I think about the 1:07:56.960 --> 1:07:59.720 morality and the ethics of it, and what is the 1:07:59.720 --> 1:08:02.240 way I can move through the world to make this 1:08:02.600 --> 1:08:06.280 to make this death like most like most death in nature, 1:08:06.680 --> 1:08:10.600 beneficial to our environment as a whole. And that's how 1:08:10.600 --> 1:08:12.160 I'm thinking of it. You know. I think that's something 1:08:12.160 --> 1:08:15.720 that you'll probably never agree with, and and you know, 1:08:15.760 --> 1:08:18.680 I'm just not sure that we could have a conversation 1:08:18.720 --> 1:08:21.519 where we get to an agreement there, obviously, I mean, 1:08:21.560 --> 1:08:23.280 we come from different sides of the fence, but that's 1:08:23.320 --> 1:08:26.559 just how I think about it. And I understand where 1:08:26.600 --> 1:08:28.960 you're trying to get to. And as I've said to 1:08:29.000 --> 1:08:31.760 other folks on that we're vegan our animal rights, I 1:08:31.800 --> 1:08:34.720 just don't. I think the reality of the world is 1:08:34.760 --> 1:08:37.760 too strong a narrative for me to say that I'm 1:08:37.800 --> 1:08:40.360 just going to remove myself from death. You know, I 1:08:40.400 --> 1:08:42.599 think it's some pulling the cloak over your own eyes 1:08:43.360 --> 1:08:47.040 at some level, because death is going to happen around 1:08:47.040 --> 1:08:51.519 you because of you. I think, yeah, I'm not saying, 1:08:51.720 --> 1:08:55.400 you know, I'm avoiding death like forever. I know that 1:08:55.880 --> 1:08:59.840 existing in fact, in the earlier stages about chat, I said, 1:09:00.080 --> 1:09:02.679 just by merely existing as a human being, we cause 1:09:03.120 --> 1:09:06.759 some death. So being vegan is not about being perfect 1:09:06.840 --> 1:09:10.960 because that's not possible. Yeah, that's a good point that 1:09:11.120 --> 1:09:17.439 you intentionally promote you're out there hunting animals when you 1:09:17.560 --> 1:09:22.760 could be in a supermarket buying produce. And yes, we 1:09:22.800 --> 1:09:25.400 don't know how many deaths you could be causing if 1:09:25.439 --> 1:09:28.520 you buy some rice, but we know that your intention 1:09:29.760 --> 1:09:34.160 is to not cause any deaths at all by rice, 1:09:34.360 --> 1:09:37.720 and the possibility of that being the case is a 1:09:37.760 --> 1:09:40.400 lot higher than you're going out and killing a deer, 1:09:40.400 --> 1:09:42.760 because when you kill a deer, you have removed the 1:09:42.800 --> 1:09:47.040 possibility of you coming home without violating animal rights. Sure, yeah, 1:09:47.040 --> 1:09:48.880 I mean I think if you ask the animals about 1:09:48.960 --> 1:09:51.200 if they care about our intentions when we buy rice, 1:09:51.240 --> 1:09:54.200 they'd say, don't really care, Like, well, why would an 1:09:54.200 --> 1:09:56.679 animal care about our intentions? Saying this from an animal's 1:09:56.680 --> 1:09:59.040 point of view, I'm saying this from the point of 1:09:59.080 --> 1:10:00.960 view of the world that we want to create. When 1:10:00.960 --> 1:10:03.200 you walk into a supermarket and you buy rice, you 1:10:03.200 --> 1:10:06.960 are intending to create a world where animals aren't having 1:10:07.040 --> 1:10:09.880 the rights violated. Right. But you said at the beginning 1:10:09.920 --> 1:10:14.280 of this that and you know that it's not certain 1:10:14.280 --> 1:10:16.720 whether you're called you're causing any animal deaths when you 1:10:16.720 --> 1:10:20.880 buy that rice, and it's possible, it's very possible that 1:10:20.960 --> 1:10:23.400 you're causing no harm to animals at all when you 1:10:23.479 --> 1:10:27.200 buy that rice. So that's a better option to go 1:10:27.280 --> 1:10:29.960 with then to definitely cause harm to animals when you 1:10:30.000 --> 1:10:32.879 go out and hunt a deal. Yeah, I mean, that's 1:10:33.120 --> 1:10:34.840 like I said, you're kind of making my point then 1:10:34.880 --> 1:10:37.800 reversing it a little bit. But I understand what you're saying. 1:10:37.800 --> 1:10:40.040 I understand the point that you were making. But we 1:10:40.080 --> 1:10:41.920 started this kind of with this idea that we wanted 1:10:41.920 --> 1:10:43.760 to focus on the animals, and I, like I was 1:10:43.840 --> 1:10:47.000 just saying, I don't think the animals care about our 1:10:47.000 --> 1:10:49.040 intent at all. I don't think that they're saying, well, 1:10:49.160 --> 1:10:50.960 at least you were trying to be nice, you know, 1:10:51.080 --> 1:10:53.479 at least you were trying to do your at least 1:10:53.479 --> 1:10:55.920 by buying the race and not to meet, you're telling 1:10:55.960 --> 1:10:59.719 yourself that you're better, you're intense, or that you're intense, 1:10:59.840 --> 1:11:02.559 are to be kind and are to give me rights, 1:11:03.240 --> 1:11:06.840 although by your by your very existence, you're denying me 1:11:06.880 --> 1:11:10.000 of rights. By the very need to consume, you're denying 1:11:10.040 --> 1:11:12.599 me of the right to do what I need to do. 1:11:12.680 --> 1:11:15.400 You know. So I think if we're talking about humans. 1:11:15.400 --> 1:11:19.120 Sure should our intent and be to always do what's 1:11:19.160 --> 1:11:23.120 best for everything around us, the world around us. Absolutely, 1:11:23.680 --> 1:11:25.760 I'm just saying I feel like hunting is the best 1:11:25.760 --> 1:11:28.439 thing I can do after I sat and thought about 1:11:28.479 --> 1:11:34.280 it for a long time. Yeah, and and and is 1:11:34.320 --> 1:11:37.400 there anything that you're open to having that changed or 1:11:37.640 --> 1:11:40.760 you're having your thoughts on that challenged. Sure, Yeah, that's 1:11:40.760 --> 1:11:43.400 why you're here, man. And I don't, like I said, 1:11:43.479 --> 1:11:48.160 I I have. I think these ideas and I'll say 1:11:48.200 --> 1:11:50.040 and I hopefully this this means something to you know, 1:11:50.120 --> 1:11:55.919 I say this, I think of animals not as others, 1:11:55.960 --> 1:11:58.080 but as part of this thing that I'm involved in, 1:11:58.160 --> 1:12:00.519 you know. I see, my hunting is this idea that 1:12:00.960 --> 1:12:03.759 being involved in the ecosystem itself gives me a chance 1:12:03.800 --> 1:12:07.639 to have, you know, an intelligent impact on it um 1:12:07.680 --> 1:12:09.680 and and take from it in a way that's the 1:12:09.760 --> 1:12:12.759 way that's you know, knowledge based, rather than this idea 1:12:12.800 --> 1:12:15.800 that I might remove myself from it and somehow feel 1:12:15.840 --> 1:12:17.840 better about it and eat my rights from the grocery store, 1:12:17.880 --> 1:12:20.439 but not really know what's happening behind the scenes, you know. 1:12:20.479 --> 1:12:23.760 So for me, it's diving into the reality. But at 1:12:23.760 --> 1:12:26.960 the same time I know that I'm killing animals. I 1:12:27.080 --> 1:12:29.760 know what I'm doing. I'm not telling myself that this 1:12:29.840 --> 1:12:32.439 is harvesting or that this is some other thing that 1:12:32.520 --> 1:12:36.320 it isn't you know. I'm telling myself, man, animals are 1:12:36.439 --> 1:12:39.760 dying and I'm causing it. And I think about that 1:12:39.800 --> 1:12:41.559 a lot. I think about that when the animal dies. 1:12:41.600 --> 1:12:43.360 I think about that while I'm practicing it with my 1:12:43.400 --> 1:12:46.200 bow or rifle. I think about that when I'm eating 1:12:46.200 --> 1:12:48.120 its flesh and or I hang its head on my wall. 1:12:48.720 --> 1:12:51.919 I think about that all the time. And so there, 1:12:51.960 --> 1:12:54.000 I know a lot of older hunters who just started 1:12:54.040 --> 1:12:56.840 taking photographs of animals later in their life, and so 1:12:56.920 --> 1:13:00.800 maybe I do get there one day. Um, But you know, 1:13:00.880 --> 1:13:02.479 up to I'm thirty four, Up to this point in 1:13:02.520 --> 1:13:04.960 my life, I've thought about it hard. I've examined animal 1:13:05.040 --> 1:13:08.439 rights and in and of itself and veganism, and as 1:13:08.479 --> 1:13:11.360 I said, I find things I respect about it. But 1:13:11.439 --> 1:13:13.639 I've come to this conclusion that, Man, I think this 1:13:13.760 --> 1:13:16.479 is my way, and my way is always evolving. So 1:13:16.640 --> 1:13:19.720 I would never close myself off to any idea when 1:13:19.720 --> 1:13:21.360 it comes to how do I do better with the 1:13:21.360 --> 1:13:25.600 ecosystem with which I live? And then the world, you know, 1:13:26.000 --> 1:13:27.800 like you said earlier, Man, I try not to make 1:13:27.800 --> 1:13:30.120 it about the world, because what the hell can I 1:13:30.160 --> 1:13:32.760 do for the world. I certainly can do something for 1:13:32.760 --> 1:13:36.479 the ecosystem that I live in and the animals I 1:13:36.520 --> 1:13:41.000 cohabitate with, But I can't do ship for you know, Victoria, Australia, 1:13:41.560 --> 1:13:45.080 really other than speak out, which what does that do? So? 1:13:45.280 --> 1:13:47.240 I mean, that's that's my speel. I have other things 1:13:47.280 --> 1:13:49.920 I say about kind of what hunting does for me, 1:13:50.000 --> 1:13:52.080 but I want you to know that I certainly have this. 1:13:52.800 --> 1:13:54.880 It's a weighty thing I'm doing, and I get it, 1:13:55.040 --> 1:13:56.920 and I'm not I'm not trying to write that off 1:13:56.960 --> 1:13:58.720 as a hunter and say like I get to do 1:13:58.760 --> 1:14:00.680 this because I can serve. I get to do this 1:14:00.720 --> 1:14:04.000 because I'm eating meat. I know what this is. I 1:14:04.040 --> 1:14:06.320 don't call it anything other than the death of an 1:14:06.320 --> 1:14:09.880 animal at my own hands. Um. But that's that's that's 1:14:09.880 --> 1:14:13.800 something I've thought about and and try to objectively say 1:14:13.840 --> 1:14:16.880 is this good or bad? Looking at the options I've 1:14:16.880 --> 1:14:23.000 got to weigh here, Do you believe that the animals 1:14:23.040 --> 1:14:31.559 that you violate deserve to have an objective effort from 1:14:31.640 --> 1:14:37.120 you to avoid violating them? Yeah, I mean, we would 1:14:37.120 --> 1:14:40.840 have to define objective effort. And I think I know, 1:14:41.840 --> 1:14:44.000 you know, if if we're defining objective effort in the 1:14:44.040 --> 1:14:46.920 way that I say, like I I'm a part of 1:14:46.920 --> 1:14:50.200 a system that was created to say like this the 1:14:50.280 --> 1:14:52.920 sustainable use of a natural resource. I'm sure that's a 1:14:53.040 --> 1:14:56.880 term that just doesn't sit well for you, um, But 1:14:57.000 --> 1:14:59.680 that's something that that I think of, and I know 1:15:00.760 --> 1:15:02.559 I want there to be I want there to be 1:15:02.640 --> 1:15:05.439 elk on the landscape, not the elk or the deer, 1:15:05.479 --> 1:15:09.320 but elk and deer themselves. I want them their species 1:15:10.400 --> 1:15:13.439 to go on. So if someone asked me, would you 1:15:13.479 --> 1:15:16.599 either the end of deer or the end of your 1:15:16.600 --> 1:15:20.040 own hunting, I would stop hunting tomorrow. If somebody said 1:15:20.080 --> 1:15:22.439 the end of whatever species or the end of your 1:15:22.439 --> 1:15:25.640 own hunting, I would say, I'll stop hunting tomorrow. I 1:15:25.720 --> 1:15:28.960 care about that population, I care about it being there, 1:15:29.080 --> 1:15:33.080 and I care about drawing from it to sustain my life. Um. 1:15:33.120 --> 1:15:35.680 And so there there's there's a relationship there that I 1:15:35.760 --> 1:15:37.880 have that that I don't think. I would never ask 1:15:37.920 --> 1:15:40.559 you to understand that, because it's just such a such 1:15:40.560 --> 1:15:44.120 a different thing, um from from killing animal. And then 1:15:44.320 --> 1:15:47.240 and then choosing not to. Um. Does any of that 1:15:47.280 --> 1:15:49.720 make sense? Man, I'm just trying to talk for my 1:15:49.800 --> 1:15:54.680 personal level. Yeah, I don't know. I just guess when 1:15:54.720 --> 1:15:57.840 it comes to objective. UM, what I mean by objectively 1:15:59.320 --> 1:16:03.200 an objective effort. By objectively making a difference, I mean 1:16:04.360 --> 1:16:08.000 with the equation that I laid out for you earlier. 1:16:08.040 --> 1:16:11.080 For example, where you walk into a supermarket and I'm 1:16:11.080 --> 1:16:14.280 just comparing the worst case scenario in terms of plant 1:16:14.320 --> 1:16:17.439 foods to the best case scenario in terms of animal 1:16:17.479 --> 1:16:21.960 food animal flesh, which is hunting in your case. So 1:16:22.040 --> 1:16:25.560 let's just compare hunting to buying produce in a supermarket. 1:16:25.840 --> 1:16:28.200 When you walk into a supermarket and you buy rice, 1:16:29.040 --> 1:16:33.080 there is a very real possibility that you aren't causing 1:16:33.200 --> 1:16:37.200 any violations to animal rights. In fact, the possibility is 1:16:37.280 --> 1:16:41.320 so very clearly there. It's so obviously present in that 1:16:41.400 --> 1:16:46.160 option to purchase that rice because there's no blood involved 1:16:46.200 --> 1:16:49.400 in that rice. It's not proven that there is any 1:16:49.400 --> 1:16:53.240 animals that are being killed in that process. So objectively speaking, 1:16:53.800 --> 1:16:58.639 it's very real that it's possible that that you're walking 1:16:58.680 --> 1:17:00.880 away with no blood in your hair when once you 1:17:00.960 --> 1:17:04.160 purchase that rice. Yeah, but I mean, I just that's 1:17:04.160 --> 1:17:06.759 an objective truth, that that could be an objective truth. 1:17:06.800 --> 1:17:08.800 But I'm not. The thing that I'm saying is I'm 1:17:08.800 --> 1:17:11.840 not willing to roll the dice. I don't. I'm not 1:17:11.880 --> 1:17:15.280 going to roll the dice on that rice. I'm sorry. 1:17:15.320 --> 1:17:16.880 That didn't That wasn't meant to rhyme. I'm not going 1:17:16.920 --> 1:17:20.479 to roll the dice on that purchase. Um, I don't understand, Ben, 1:17:20.600 --> 1:17:23.760 because you aren't you taking You're taking a chance. I mean, 1:17:23.800 --> 1:17:25.640 you're taking a chance that an animal did die. Right, 1:17:25.680 --> 1:17:30.120 It's about lowering the violations. So you're not lowering the risk, 1:17:30.200 --> 1:17:34.000 you're lowering the violate the violations because when you go hunting, 1:17:34.040 --> 1:17:37.519 you are certainly killing. Yeah. Yeah, I mean if well, 1:17:37.560 --> 1:17:39.880 let's play the numbers game. Let's play the numbers game 1:17:39.880 --> 1:17:42.519 objectively for a moment. Like if we're saying what objective 1:17:42.560 --> 1:17:46.000 truth is at the same time is no animals might die. 1:17:46.520 --> 1:17:49.479 There could be hundreds of animals that died. I don't 1:17:49.520 --> 1:17:52.120 know that. So I'm rolling the dice to say, Hey, 1:17:52.800 --> 1:17:54.920 you know, from your perspective, you want to argue that 1:17:54.920 --> 1:17:58.000 there's zero and people would think from my perspective, I'm 1:17:58.000 --> 1:18:00.519 gonna argue that there's hundreds of deaths. Canna argue that, 1:18:00.560 --> 1:18:03.080 I'm gonna say, you just don't know. I know how 1:18:03.080 --> 1:18:05.280 many I know? If I kill one elk a year, 1:18:05.800 --> 1:18:08.519 one elk died to feed my family, one elk died 1:18:09.360 --> 1:18:11.960 four or four. That's not It's not as straightforward as that, Ben, 1:18:12.040 --> 1:18:15.120 because that kills many animals in their lives just by 1:18:15.160 --> 1:18:19.120 existing walking around. They're killing bugs, They're stepping on bugs, 1:18:19.640 --> 1:18:22.559 eating grass, they're eating plants. They're eating bugs in the 1:18:22.600 --> 1:18:24.840 process of eating those plants because they ripped them out 1:18:24.840 --> 1:18:28.040 of the ground, you know they So you don't know 1:18:28.080 --> 1:18:30.200 how many deaths are left in the in the path 1:18:30.320 --> 1:18:33.960 of that deer before you end up killing that dear? So, 1:18:34.000 --> 1:18:37.280 am I saving lives by killing the deer? Then? Much 1:18:37.320 --> 1:18:40.479 for the point? Am I saving lives by killing like 1:18:40.560 --> 1:18:42.720 future lives by killing the deer itself? Then? Or are 1:18:42.760 --> 1:18:46.920 you saying that there's an equation where the the deer 1:18:46.960 --> 1:18:51.040 I killed it's deaths are equated to me somehow lives. 1:18:51.080 --> 1:18:57.280 You're causing more lives to be violated. How's that with rice? Again? 1:18:57.320 --> 1:19:02.439 Like you're not He's saying it could be a hundred deaths? 1:19:02.680 --> 1:19:08.360 Is so unrealistic. It's so completely um, it's so blown 1:19:08.400 --> 1:19:12.280 out of proportion that it doesn't even represent reality. That's 1:19:12.280 --> 1:19:15.479 not really what happens. When you buy a kilo of rice, 1:19:15.920 --> 1:19:19.760 you know, you're maybe going to cause one death, you know, 1:19:20.000 --> 1:19:22.880 maybe maybe two deaths if you're you know, if you're 1:19:22.920 --> 1:19:26.200 really trying to stretch it here conservatively, Like, and what 1:19:26.200 --> 1:19:28.559 what kind of death are we talking about? Bugs? Bugs are? 1:19:29.400 --> 1:19:31.320 This is the other thing, Like, if we're talking about 1:19:31.320 --> 1:19:35.599 a bug death, vegans are not stupid enough and crazy 1:19:35.720 --> 1:19:37.679 enough to think that a bug death is the same 1:19:37.720 --> 1:19:40.920 thing as a cow death. You know, if we're talking 1:19:40.920 --> 1:19:43.880 about a fly who's killed by your car as you're 1:19:43.960 --> 1:19:48.599 driving down the road, we're not going to be stupid 1:19:48.720 --> 1:19:52.200 enough and crazy enough to say that that that experience 1:19:52.240 --> 1:19:54.000 of that life is going to be the same as 1:19:54.040 --> 1:19:57.400 the experience of a cow who's on a farm who's 1:19:57.439 --> 1:20:00.360 being raised for the specific intention of having the heads 1:20:00.360 --> 1:20:05.240 hacked off and their bodies, um, their bodies chopped up 1:20:05.240 --> 1:20:11.000 into a thousand pieces. So yeah, like when you go hunting, 1:20:11.240 --> 1:20:14.040 you also drive your vehicle to the location where you 1:20:14.080 --> 1:20:16.439 go hunting, right, Oh, yeah, we talked about this all 1:20:16.439 --> 1:20:19.240 the time. Bugs on the way to your location. He 1:20:19.320 --> 1:20:22.320 might hit a deal on your location. Just causing one death, 1:20:22.400 --> 1:20:26.599 you're also causing other deaths on the way to and fro. Yeah, 1:20:26.600 --> 1:20:29.240 I mean this is kind of the the choice goes 1:20:29.240 --> 1:20:30.639 back to the choice thing. It's kind of the point 1:20:30.640 --> 1:20:33.520 that I'm making here is that I want to choose. 1:20:34.040 --> 1:20:36.440 I want to have the choice. I want to say 1:20:37.000 --> 1:20:39.519 one ELK dies or zero UK dies. But that's my choice. 1:20:39.520 --> 1:20:41.599 I want to say I'm going to kill the voles 1:20:41.600 --> 1:20:44.080 in my backyard or I'm not. I want to have 1:20:44.160 --> 1:20:46.120 the choice. I want to farm out that choice to 1:20:46.200 --> 1:20:48.320 someone else. Um, I don't want to farm out the 1:20:48.360 --> 1:20:50.599 ethics am I eating to some person I've never met. 1:20:51.000 --> 1:20:53.320 I don't want to allow. I don't want to allow. Yeah, 1:20:53.320 --> 1:20:55.720 I don't want to allow a proxy rice farmer who 1:20:55.760 --> 1:20:58.479 I've never met, to kill zero kill, one kill, to 1:20:58.680 --> 1:21:00.599 kill a hundred. I don't know what that person's doing. 1:21:01.200 --> 1:21:03.240 And so that this is just part of how I 1:21:03.280 --> 1:21:06.280 get to hunting. This is part of the reasoning how 1:21:06.320 --> 1:21:08.679 I get you have You're coming from a from an 1:21:08.680 --> 1:21:11.920 integrity point of view on this, And to you then 1:21:12.040 --> 1:21:16.080 is if if you want to follow through with that integrity, 1:21:16.120 --> 1:21:21.519 why don't you just make it a focused effort on 1:21:22.760 --> 1:21:27.040 choosing to grow planned foods and if you take some 1:21:27.160 --> 1:21:30.000 losses here and there, then so be it. But that's 1:21:30.040 --> 1:21:34.160 the choice you're making to avoid harming animals altogether. Yeah, 1:21:34.160 --> 1:21:35.960 I mean, I just this is a conversation I had 1:21:36.000 --> 1:21:37.960 with a guy that I really respect by the name 1:21:37.960 --> 1:21:41.080 of Dr Robert C. Jones. He's a vegan philosopher. He 1:21:41.160 --> 1:21:43.519 was at Chico State. I think he's teaching out of 1:21:43.560 --> 1:21:46.880 Hollywood now. But anyway, he opposed it like a circle, 1:21:47.160 --> 1:21:50.280 like there's this circle where all this death is happening. 1:21:50.400 --> 1:21:52.439 If you could choose to be in the circle where 1:21:52.439 --> 1:21:55.360 the death is happening or step out of it, would 1:21:55.400 --> 1:21:58.400 what would you choose? And I just said, look, I 1:21:58.439 --> 1:22:00.840 feel as though I have a look, you know, and 1:22:00.880 --> 1:22:03.920 I'll continue to examine my own impact on the world, 1:22:03.920 --> 1:22:08.400 in my own human consumption. My feeling is no matter 1:22:08.439 --> 1:22:11.240 what I do, I'm coming I'm forced against this idea 1:22:11.800 --> 1:22:15.439 that I'm a part of nature. I cause death. So 1:22:15.479 --> 1:22:18.120 then I want to take that death upon myself where 1:22:18.160 --> 1:22:21.680 it where it's weight, understand what it means. And that's 1:22:21.920 --> 1:22:24.880 the term we talked about, that tragic knowledge, this knowledge 1:22:24.920 --> 1:22:27.680 of what death really looks like. Rather than say I'm 1:22:27.720 --> 1:22:30.240 not going to approach death. I don't want to see it. 1:22:30.320 --> 1:22:34.040 I don't want to intentionally cause it. I'm saying, I 1:22:34.120 --> 1:22:36.640 know I'm causing it by just being a human, So 1:22:36.720 --> 1:22:38.479 I want to I want to take a step forward 1:22:38.520 --> 1:22:45.360 towards death. Understand it. They're both saying that we code 1:22:45.360 --> 1:22:49.360 we we both cause some death by being human. I 1:22:49.360 --> 1:22:51.479 think where we and I've been through this kind of before, 1:22:51.560 --> 1:22:53.840 so I know where we diverge, where we diverge, as 1:22:53.880 --> 1:22:57.240 you're saying, I know I cause death. I want to 1:22:57.240 --> 1:23:00.400 do everything I possibly can to never intentionally cause death, 1:23:00.439 --> 1:23:02.160 to never like eat a hamburger and to know that 1:23:02.160 --> 1:23:04.599 there's going to be a dead thing in my mouth, 1:23:05.160 --> 1:23:08.720 or to to do anything that's intentional. I've looked at 1:23:08.760 --> 1:23:11.080 this idea in my own life, and again I'm not 1:23:11.160 --> 1:23:13.840 I'm not preaching that everyone should go hunting or or 1:23:13.960 --> 1:23:17.000 preaching that this is the way for everyone. All I'm 1:23:17.000 --> 1:23:18.840 saying is I've looked at that in my own life, 1:23:18.840 --> 1:23:22.800 and I feel like this personal application of you know, 1:23:22.960 --> 1:23:26.680 my my own food choice is my own choices about impact, 1:23:27.040 --> 1:23:28.639 you know, And then again, my own choice is about 1:23:28.680 --> 1:23:31.600 what comes into my home in terms of food is 1:23:32.080 --> 1:23:35.439 incrementally making me better at being a human and better 1:23:35.479 --> 1:23:39.240 than understanding this ecosystems and better understanding nature. Hunting is 1:23:39.280 --> 1:23:42.000 a huge part of that for me, Um, but it's 1:23:42.040 --> 1:23:44.400 allowed me to bring in other things. I'm you know, 1:23:44.439 --> 1:23:46.600 and I'm sure you would admit. We are all imperfect 1:23:46.640 --> 1:23:48.759 in the way that we try to move around this world, 1:23:49.479 --> 1:23:51.439 and so there's this idea that we're always growing, we're 1:23:51.479 --> 1:23:54.000 always learning more, you know, We've I've had people in 1:23:54.120 --> 1:23:57.160 here talking about lab based meat, talking about plant based meat, 1:23:58.160 --> 1:24:01.160 and these ideas of these replacements, and so I want 1:24:01.200 --> 1:24:03.840 to explore those things as well. And I'm not so 1:24:03.880 --> 1:24:06.240 stupid as I'm gonna say like hunting will always be here, 1:24:06.240 --> 1:24:09.160 and it won't. They'll never be an idea better than hunting. 1:24:09.200 --> 1:24:12.040 That's not true. Um. What I'm saying is personally, I've 1:24:12.160 --> 1:24:14.759 looked at this and I feel for my own life, 1:24:14.960 --> 1:24:18.519 this is a way for me to understand death, not 1:24:18.680 --> 1:24:21.519 cause as much of it. And also even if I 1:24:21.600 --> 1:24:25.200 even if I don't know the exact number to say, 1:24:25.479 --> 1:24:29.880 I have this proximity to death that is personal and 1:24:29.920 --> 1:24:32.640 it's affecting me and Therefore, I you know, I have 1:24:32.680 --> 1:24:34.880 respect for these creatures because I know what they are 1:24:34.920 --> 1:24:37.400 and I know what I am. Uh, you know, and 1:24:37.439 --> 1:24:40.519 that's that's just my rationale. And and I think I 1:24:40.600 --> 1:24:44.639 understand your rationale as well. I get where you're coming from. Um, 1:24:44.680 --> 1:24:46.280 where we disagree is where I just said, I don't 1:24:46.320 --> 1:24:48.599 know that that's a reality for me. I don't know 1:24:48.640 --> 1:24:50.000 that I can look at the world and say, like, 1:24:50.040 --> 1:24:54.360 my intentions matter more than the actual death there. Well, 1:24:54.520 --> 1:24:56.599 you can't actually say that you know how many actual 1:24:56.640 --> 1:25:00.880 deaths are caused in my lifestyle, for example, versus your No, 1:25:00.920 --> 1:25:02.920 I wouldn't I wouldn't put I wouldn't play a numbers 1:25:02.960 --> 1:25:06.640 game at all. Sure, that's my point. The speculation is 1:25:06.640 --> 1:25:10.680 the thing that I struggle with, um. And so so 1:25:10.720 --> 1:25:14.800 that's why this proximity thing, well, I'm saying most of this, 1:25:14.960 --> 1:25:17.960 most of these conversations we have about this, this is 1:25:18.120 --> 1:25:20.920 speculation anyway. Zero deaths for the rice or a hunter death, 1:25:20.960 --> 1:25:24.479 these are all speculations. Um. I've never I can't remember 1:25:24.520 --> 1:25:27.080 ever being I've been on many farms, never a rice 1:25:27.120 --> 1:25:29.920 farm particularly, And so my point is I just don't know, 1:25:30.280 --> 1:25:32.240 But I do know with hunting I do know that 1:25:32.479 --> 1:25:34.439 there's an elk herd that lives near my house. If 1:25:34.479 --> 1:25:36.720 I take one a year, that that elk herd can 1:25:36.800 --> 1:25:39.400 remain remain on the landscape. I'm never going to take 1:25:39.400 --> 1:25:41.760 more than I need, and that when I watched the 1:25:41.840 --> 1:25:45.080 death go from an animal's eyes, I don't know that 1:25:45.120 --> 1:25:48.200 I say I'm a murderer, but I and definitely aware 1:25:48.240 --> 1:25:50.920 of what's going on. And I'm not excusing it. I'm 1:25:50.960 --> 1:25:54.160 not saying that it's something that's not I'm saying this 1:25:54.240 --> 1:25:58.559 is tragic, but our humanity is is evenly so tragic. 1:25:59.000 --> 1:26:01.000 Um And so I'm trying to deal with that maybe 1:26:01.000 --> 1:26:02.240 in the same way you're trying to deal with it, 1:26:02.280 --> 1:26:05.800 just in the like maybe a polar opposite endgame that 1:26:05.880 --> 1:26:08.599 Maga sense I have to pull you up there, Ben, 1:26:08.720 --> 1:26:11.599 because you just said evenly more tragic. You don't know 1:26:11.680 --> 1:26:14.640 that we just established that it's not it's it's speculation. 1:26:15.479 --> 1:26:19.040 You don't know if my lifestyle is causing the same 1:26:19.080 --> 1:26:23.200 amount of animal violations as your lifestyle. Yeah, I'm not. 1:26:23.360 --> 1:26:25.559 I'm not. I'm like I said, I like to have 1:26:25.600 --> 1:26:28.799 this idea that like I know personally what what's happening. 1:26:28.800 --> 1:26:31.080 I know the pushes and pools, I know the options. 1:26:31.120 --> 1:26:34.720 I know. I know kind of the equation from from 1:26:34.800 --> 1:26:36.760 my for a lot of my eating, and some of 1:26:36.800 --> 1:26:38.680 it I don't. I still eat cereal, and you know, 1:26:38.720 --> 1:26:41.280 you you could see me, you know, eating a yogurt 1:26:41.400 --> 1:26:44.200 or drinking a soda or I'm not jeez, I'm not 1:26:44.560 --> 1:26:48.240 above any of that stuff. But but there's this idea 1:26:48.320 --> 1:26:53.280 that you know, hunting, gardening, other things make make this 1:26:53.520 --> 1:26:56.599 equation visible to me. I can see it, I can 1:26:56.640 --> 1:26:58.760 look at it. I can make my own choices as 1:26:58.880 --> 1:27:03.040 as as do I make that kill, do I not? Um? 1:27:03.080 --> 1:27:05.800 Do I cause that death? Or do I alleviate that death? 1:27:05.800 --> 1:27:08.439 In this way? At least I can make the choice. 1:27:08.560 --> 1:27:10.840 If you buy something from the grocery store, you have 1:27:10.880 --> 1:27:14.080 no choice but to buy that. And unless you've already 1:27:14.120 --> 1:27:16.599 done all the research on its ill it's exact production, 1:27:17.120 --> 1:27:19.400 there's a bit of a proxy going on there with 1:27:19.400 --> 1:27:22.360 with who's delivering that food? Do you? And so I'm 1:27:22.600 --> 1:27:26.760 confused because you can you do have You do have 1:27:26.880 --> 1:27:29.559 many options. You can grow your own produce. For example, 1:27:29.920 --> 1:27:32.280 you said you have an interest in doing that. Oh yeah, 1:27:32.360 --> 1:27:36.280 absolutely possible option for you. It's still a viable option. 1:27:37.160 --> 1:27:39.559 It's just it has some challenges, just like with anything. 1:27:39.600 --> 1:27:42.240 I guess sure, I mean, like I said, the channel. 1:27:42.280 --> 1:27:45.519 If if I guess, here's where we can maybe maybe 1:27:45.560 --> 1:27:48.880 this makes more sense. If my if I'm I'm if 1:27:48.960 --> 1:27:53.559 I am choosing to stop hunting to stop the violation 1:27:53.640 --> 1:27:56.679 of an animal to death. If I'm choosing to stop 1:27:56.760 --> 1:27:59.320 the death of that animal allowing that elk to live 1:28:00.760 --> 1:28:02.840 at this, then I have to return to Okay, how 1:28:02.880 --> 1:28:06.679 do I replace that that food, that that food source 1:28:06.760 --> 1:28:08.880 and the percentage of my diet. Okay, Let's say I 1:28:09.160 --> 1:28:11.360 turned to a grocery store. I think that's a worse 1:28:11.439 --> 1:28:14.439 option than killing that elk um. Let's say I turned 1:28:14.439 --> 1:28:17.120 to my backyard, which I've done in the past. Let'll 1:28:17.120 --> 1:28:19.439 say I'm I'm a phorn of the death of yelok, 1:28:19.479 --> 1:28:22.200 and I'm gonna turn to my backyard. I find still 1:28:22.439 --> 1:28:25.439 I'm in the throes of of nature. There, I'm still 1:28:25.680 --> 1:28:28.519 asking myself, is there a way for me not to 1:28:28.640 --> 1:28:32.280 have to kill these animals that are gonna eat it 1:28:32.479 --> 1:28:35.599 or or have this conflict with nature? There? So I'm 1:28:35.640 --> 1:28:39.560 looking at the options I have and saying, Okay, this 1:28:39.840 --> 1:28:42.839 the hunting feels the most right to me. It feels 1:28:42.880 --> 1:28:46.080 like something where I'm I have an active choice in 1:28:46.160 --> 1:28:48.400 what I'm doing, rather than just relying on a proxy 1:28:48.439 --> 1:28:52.080 farmer somewhere whom I never met. So that's just that's 1:28:52.160 --> 1:28:57.000 my argument. I think, you know, for me personally, it's 1:28:57.000 --> 1:28:59.840 always changing, it's always evolving. It doesn't take away my 1:29:00.000 --> 1:29:02.640 respect for animals or my respect for your position that 1:29:02.880 --> 1:29:04.519 you know, let's try not to harm them if you 1:29:04.560 --> 1:29:08.959 don't have to. Well, I guess that's where I'm confused, 1:29:09.040 --> 1:29:11.599 because like it's it's just an objective fact that if 1:29:11.640 --> 1:29:14.680 you buy beans to make up your calories instead of 1:29:14.720 --> 1:29:19.800 animal flesh to replace animal flesh, that it would be 1:29:19.960 --> 1:29:22.479 very rare that you would cause the same amount of 1:29:22.560 --> 1:29:26.280 animal violations with a kilo or I guess you go 1:29:26.400 --> 1:29:30.479 buy pounds in America, you know, two pounds of beans. 1:29:31.640 --> 1:29:35.479 I can guarantee you that it would be extremely rare 1:29:35.920 --> 1:29:38.280 that you would cause the same amount of violations as 1:29:38.320 --> 1:29:42.920 you're going out and intentionally killing a deal. I'd have 1:29:43.040 --> 1:29:45.880 to see some kind of some fact or some study 1:29:46.040 --> 1:29:47.960 or some some farmer that can call in and tell 1:29:48.040 --> 1:29:51.200 me that, because that's just again I'll say again, you're 1:29:51.240 --> 1:29:54.760 making an assumption. You don't know unless unless there's like 1:29:54.840 --> 1:29:57.200 a unless there's like a number on the front of 1:29:57.240 --> 1:29:59.680 that bean package that says zero animals are kiling in 1:29:59.720 --> 1:30:02.439 the arm this you have no idea. And on this 1:30:02.680 --> 1:30:04.400 and on the flip side, you don't know if it's 1:30:04.439 --> 1:30:10.000 got ten deaths behind it either. So exactly we're both speculating. However, 1:30:10.120 --> 1:30:13.439 based on my education on this subject, you know, I've 1:30:13.479 --> 1:30:16.400 been doing this for over four years now. I've talked 1:30:16.439 --> 1:30:18.719 to a lot of people about this subject. I've worked 1:30:18.760 --> 1:30:21.640 with the best aim orious activists in the world, you know, 1:30:22.439 --> 1:30:27.200 and our education on this subject is that it's objectively 1:30:27.320 --> 1:30:32.320 clear to us that with farming rice or beans, or 1:30:32.439 --> 1:30:34.799 just like the generic products that exists on the shelf, 1:30:35.680 --> 1:30:39.800 there aren't as many animal violations as being spoken about 1:30:40.360 --> 1:30:44.439 by people like hunters who make this argument that's just 1:30:44.560 --> 1:30:49.040 not how agriculture is actually carried out. I mean, I 1:30:49.280 --> 1:30:51.840 have to see, I have to see some data keeps 1:30:51.880 --> 1:30:55.680 getting brought up. But when you look at agriculture and 1:30:55.960 --> 1:31:00.679 and the data that goes into combine harvesting, the amount 1:31:00.720 --> 1:31:04.559 of animal deaths that are caused by those machines pales 1:31:04.600 --> 1:31:07.360 in comparison to the story that's actually being told to vegans. 1:31:08.120 --> 1:31:12.439 So no, that's not just an assumption on my part. However, 1:31:12.600 --> 1:31:14.559 there is an assumption on your part when you say 1:31:14.640 --> 1:31:16.840 that it causes the same amount or it's just a risk, 1:31:16.920 --> 1:31:19.880 and you could be causing more. You could be causing 1:31:19.960 --> 1:31:23.840 more harm by buying beans, for example, from a supermarket, 1:31:23.880 --> 1:31:27.360 and that's just objectively not true. Yeah, I mean I think, 1:31:27.439 --> 1:31:28.920 I mean, you could say that, but you have to 1:31:29.000 --> 1:31:33.400 back that up and causing the same um at best. 1:31:33.520 --> 1:31:36.240 And this is me being conservative here. You would be 1:31:36.280 --> 1:31:41.120 causing the same amount of harm by by buying that beat, 1:31:41.200 --> 1:31:44.360 those beans or that rice, and that isn't even realistic 1:31:44.439 --> 1:31:46.800 for me to say that. I'm trying to be charitable 1:31:46.880 --> 1:31:50.880 by saying this. Actually conservative isn't even the right word. Yeah, 1:31:50.920 --> 1:31:53.120 I mean, there's a couple of things. If you causing 1:31:53.240 --> 1:31:56.519 no violations to animals is very much possible, It's very 1:31:56.600 --> 1:32:01.320 much real It's that that is very clear. I have 1:32:01.400 --> 1:32:03.760 to see something that I'd have to see something where 1:32:03.800 --> 1:32:06.719 there's you know, there's a bunch of data from farms 1:32:07.320 --> 1:32:10.800 that are looking at the you know, net zero cost 1:32:10.880 --> 1:32:14.320 of animal death versus the production of monoculture. You know, 1:32:14.800 --> 1:32:18.519 plants essentially, what kind of habitat is being lost when 1:32:18.560 --> 1:32:22.280 you're planning. You know, nature needs biodiversity and these landscapes, 1:32:22.520 --> 1:32:27.680 even landscapes that are arible that we can plant, need biodiversity. Um. Monoculture. 1:32:27.800 --> 1:32:31.439 We have you know, five vegetable products that we plant 1:32:31.560 --> 1:32:35.160 on most of our world. Um, we can't have this monoculture. 1:32:35.240 --> 1:32:38.120 We have to have this biodiversity for everything from pollinators 1:32:38.200 --> 1:32:41.840 to butterflies, to be you know, to deer. But again 1:32:41.880 --> 1:32:44.679 I'm confused because you said you also eat these products, 1:32:45.479 --> 1:32:48.639 so you're not only eating dea flesh. No, I'm eating 1:32:48.720 --> 1:32:51.559 like I would say, if if if an optimal diet 1:32:51.640 --> 1:32:55.040 for me would all would all include proximity to my food. 1:32:55.280 --> 1:32:57.880 That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying I'm perfect, and 1:32:57.960 --> 1:33:00.479 I don't. I've never had a French fry. I've never 1:33:00.600 --> 1:33:03.479 had something that wouldn't that I know exactly where it 1:33:03.520 --> 1:33:05.360 came from. But I'm saying the optimal diet. The thing 1:33:05.439 --> 1:33:09.120 that hunting and gardening and other things UM give me 1:33:09.320 --> 1:33:11.760 is is this idea that I want that proximity. I 1:33:11.840 --> 1:33:14.680 seek it out. I try to try to find it 1:33:14.720 --> 1:33:16.960 where I can and hunting and gardening and other things 1:33:17.000 --> 1:33:20.720 are are part of that for my my own life. Um. 1:33:21.080 --> 1:33:23.080 And so I'm not, you know, not necessarily saying any 1:33:23.160 --> 1:33:25.679 of that, but I mean, look, I mean, I I'm 1:33:25.720 --> 1:33:31.240 out there. I see these big monoculture crop fields. Um. 1:33:32.040 --> 1:33:35.360 Nature abhors that vacuum. It doesn't want that vacuum. That 1:33:35.520 --> 1:33:38.880 that is the the elimination of habitat for many species. 1:33:39.640 --> 1:33:41.840 And that's something we've done to the land. That's something 1:33:41.920 --> 1:33:44.960 we've done since we invented agriculture from twelve thousand years ago. 1:33:45.360 --> 1:33:50.200 And so I just again I'm not willing to and 1:33:50.320 --> 1:33:52.720 if somebody could, if you could show me some objective 1:33:52.840 --> 1:33:56.799 data that says that you know, this, this type of plant, 1:33:56.960 --> 1:34:01.880 this type of production processes a limits death to zero, 1:34:02.040 --> 1:34:05.040 one to whatever however that might be classified, I'd read it, 1:34:05.080 --> 1:34:07.720 I'd look at it. And ultimately, if if there was 1:34:07.760 --> 1:34:12.360 a plant and a farming practice that guaranteed zero deaths, boy, 1:34:12.400 --> 1:34:14.600 I'd be hard pressed not to eat whatever that was. 1:34:14.880 --> 1:34:17.120 But I just I've never seen it or heard of it. 1:34:17.560 --> 1:34:19.519 And if that's objectively true, I'd love to see it, 1:34:19.600 --> 1:34:21.920 because I just never I've never come across it. And 1:34:22.000 --> 1:34:26.519 all my talks about regenerative agriculture and responsible farming and 1:34:27.000 --> 1:34:31.640 bio diversity and healthy ecosystems and trophic cascade and predation 1:34:31.920 --> 1:34:36.080 and cohabitation. Um, I've never run into what you just said, 1:34:36.600 --> 1:34:38.160 and and so I, like I said, I'd love to 1:34:38.280 --> 1:34:40.160 learn more about it. I just have never heard that, 1:34:40.439 --> 1:34:46.120 and I don't know it to be true. Yeah. Well again, 1:34:46.160 --> 1:34:50.240 I'm confused because you are also consuming the products of 1:34:51.200 --> 1:35:00.240 these farming practices as well as right. What's that sounds 1:35:00.280 --> 1:35:02.519 to me like you're trying to choose one or the other. 1:35:02.880 --> 1:35:04.760 I'm not. I'm not trying to I just said that 1:35:04.920 --> 1:35:07.800 I'm trying to get better at everything that I do. 1:35:08.280 --> 1:35:12.479 Gardening certainly gives me proximity to vegetables. I don't have 1:35:12.560 --> 1:35:14.880 a rice field in my backyard. I just don't. I 1:35:14.960 --> 1:35:18.519 never will. Um so, and I can't the h O 1:35:18.600 --> 1:35:20.200 A would get kissed if I had a rice field 1:35:20.240 --> 1:35:23.479 my backyard is. I guess what would help is you 1:35:23.680 --> 1:35:27.560 visiting a russ field and how they and witnessing the 1:35:27.800 --> 1:35:30.200 entire process. Sure, I mean listen, like I said, if 1:35:30.280 --> 1:35:33.040 if if this is I I genuinely this isn't This 1:35:33.360 --> 1:35:35.400 isn't true. Because I've been to these places, I've seen it. 1:35:35.479 --> 1:35:39.400 I've talked to many farmers, many of the generative agriculture farmers, 1:35:39.520 --> 1:35:41.760 who are trying to figure this all out on a 1:35:41.880 --> 1:35:46.400 natural landscape, how they can maximize that landscape and make 1:35:46.439 --> 1:35:49.200 it a wildlife paradise while also getting the food that 1:35:49.240 --> 1:35:52.080 they need from that, you know, And that's a complicated 1:35:52.160 --> 1:35:56.680 process and involves all kinds of um intrusions on wildlife 1:35:56.920 --> 1:36:00.879 and and the removal of their habitat um. Every action 1:36:01.120 --> 1:36:04.559 in the natural world has this has a reaction. Yeah, 1:36:04.720 --> 1:36:06.960 everything we do as human beings. And that's why I'm 1:36:07.000 --> 1:36:10.040 saying that the simple act of being vegan and just 1:36:10.280 --> 1:36:14.040 choosing to intentionally not violate the rights of animals, it 1:36:14.120 --> 1:36:16.800 seems like the most logical. Yeah, I mean, listen, man, 1:36:16.840 --> 1:36:21.120 I'm yeah, I'm I'm not. I'm not here to say like, wow, 1:36:21.200 --> 1:36:23.679 you're crazy. That sounds pretty logical. I mean, it sounds 1:36:23.720 --> 1:36:27.360 like something that when we're both kind of having the 1:36:27.439 --> 1:36:29.920 same calculus here and and now I think people probably 1:36:29.960 --> 1:36:32.040 gonna get frustrated with here and let's go round and round. 1:36:32.280 --> 1:36:35.080 But I mean, I do I do believe, and I've 1:36:35.080 --> 1:36:38.000 said this to other folks um, I do believe we're 1:36:38.080 --> 1:36:40.800 kind of using the same calculus, but we're landing on 1:36:40.880 --> 1:36:44.360 the different answers here. My calculus is very much yours. 1:36:44.520 --> 1:36:48.640 It's human impact is you know, no matter how you 1:36:48.680 --> 1:36:51.200 look at it, we do consume the world around us, 1:36:51.360 --> 1:36:54.320 which net net gives us a negative impact on lots 1:36:54.360 --> 1:36:57.400 of things because we consume the world around us, um. 1:36:57.560 --> 1:37:01.800 And so we we as humans as we progress through society, 1:37:01.880 --> 1:37:04.759 as we as we grow as people, as we innovate, 1:37:06.040 --> 1:37:09.519 you know, as as fellow citizens, where it's all on 1:37:09.760 --> 1:37:11.600 us to step back and be like, what can I 1:37:11.760 --> 1:37:16.160 do to make sure I understand my impact on the world. 1:37:17.200 --> 1:37:19.479 And that's a very personal journey. I think for most 1:37:19.520 --> 1:37:23.120 hunters that's a very personal journey. I'm sure for most 1:37:23.160 --> 1:37:26.200 vegans that's a very personal journey. It's a personal journey, 1:37:26.479 --> 1:37:31.400 but it's not a personal choice when your choice involves victims. 1:37:32.560 --> 1:37:36.439 So like, if you don't have to choose between eating, um, 1:37:37.200 --> 1:37:40.400 some risal beings from the supermarket or hunting an elk, 1:37:41.960 --> 1:37:48.759 where in the second option you are intentionally certainly choosing 1:37:49.640 --> 1:37:54.800 to kill an animal, then your personal choice is not 1:37:54.960 --> 1:37:57.759 just a personal choice that involves someone else, and therefore 1:37:58.000 --> 1:38:02.320 it's no longer personal and sure, I mean the personal 1:38:02.439 --> 1:38:06.040 choice to eat that you're making a personal choice while unintentional, 1:38:06.720 --> 1:38:08.439 you're making a choice to eat that food from the 1:38:08.479 --> 1:38:12.040 grocery store rather than again have your own rice farm 1:38:12.880 --> 1:38:15.360 or do whatever. I mean again, that this goes back to, 1:38:16.080 --> 1:38:19.360 you know, in struggling economies and places where we don't 1:38:19.400 --> 1:38:22.000 have this kind of first world luxurious debate that we're having, 1:38:22.120 --> 1:38:25.200 people are hungry and they do what they can to survive. UM, 1:38:26.200 --> 1:38:28.679 and so there's there's that I don't know that that's 1:38:28.680 --> 1:38:32.640 a German while we're talking about you be sure and 1:38:32.720 --> 1:38:37.559 most people, yeah, I think absolutely, Yeah, I mean in um, 1:38:38.400 --> 1:38:42.400 in other countries, second and third world countries, and yeah, 1:38:42.479 --> 1:38:47.960 in your case, you know, yeah that that doesn't really 1:38:48.120 --> 1:38:50.680 I imagine, and I imagine for you like if I'm 1:38:50.720 --> 1:38:52.000 going to try to get you on a got your 1:38:52.080 --> 1:38:54.120 question and be like, hey man, if you were starving, 1:38:54.160 --> 1:38:56.519 would you eat a deer? Like I just I'm not 1:38:56.560 --> 1:38:59.599 gonna that's not something that I think is getting anybody anywhere. 1:38:59.760 --> 1:39:02.880 And certainly I think hopefully what people can hear in 1:39:03.120 --> 1:39:05.200 us is that there's some semantics going on here. We're 1:39:05.280 --> 1:39:09.360 kind of dancing around these issues. Um, I I just believe. 1:39:09.360 --> 1:39:11.360 I don't know if you can disagree with this. You know, 1:39:11.760 --> 1:39:13.479 you might or might not, But I, like I said, 1:39:13.520 --> 1:39:16.479 I think there's a similar calculus going on here and 1:39:16.560 --> 1:39:19.840 if we're all able to come to this idea, and 1:39:20.240 --> 1:39:23.679 I think that this ideologically comes to this discussion about 1:39:23.720 --> 1:39:28.000 death and the intentionality as you say, and like need 1:39:28.280 --> 1:39:32.439 needless death or maybe needful death, if that's a good 1:39:32.479 --> 1:39:34.720 way to say it. But I do, I do think 1:39:34.800 --> 1:39:37.400 that there is there's more to be had here than 1:39:37.520 --> 1:39:41.439 than maybe meets the eye. And my only point to 1:39:41.479 --> 1:39:43.160 have this conversation is not just tell you, hey, let's 1:39:43.200 --> 1:39:46.280 go hunting tomorrow. Um what is to say, like it's 1:39:46.320 --> 1:39:49.320 say exactly that to you is I think there is 1:39:49.680 --> 1:39:52.479 some some ways to explore the nuance here where we 1:39:52.560 --> 1:39:55.360 can come we can learn something from each other and 1:39:55.840 --> 1:39:59.120 express appreciation for this idea that our impact on the 1:39:59.160 --> 1:40:03.120 world is it's not finite. It does have lots of 1:40:03.200 --> 1:40:05.439 fissures and cracks through our world the things that we do. 1:40:05.680 --> 1:40:08.160 So that's that's just where I stand on And I objectively, 1:40:09.200 --> 1:40:13.160 UM love having these conversations. I like testing ideas and 1:40:13.520 --> 1:40:17.040 and trying to find ways to connect. So you know, 1:40:17.240 --> 1:40:19.400 hopefully like hopefully you're seeing that a little bit and 1:40:19.560 --> 1:40:23.240 and again hopefully people listening can see, Um, you know 1:40:23.280 --> 1:40:27.439 where you're coming from and what it means to you. Yeah, 1:40:27.560 --> 1:40:30.519 right on, Yeah, is there any is there anything else 1:40:30.560 --> 1:40:31.680 you want to say? I don't I don't want to 1:40:31.720 --> 1:40:34.400 You know, this isn't about this, certainly isn't about a debate. 1:40:34.840 --> 1:40:37.160 You know, you're you have a forum here to speak 1:40:37.160 --> 1:40:40.559 to an audience that would never hear you, never hear 1:40:40.600 --> 1:40:43.920 your thoughts before. So is there something you know, something 1:40:44.000 --> 1:40:45.600 that you thought of you want to say to to 1:40:46.040 --> 1:40:49.040 you know, tens of thousands of hunters out there to say, 1:40:49.439 --> 1:40:52.960 you know, for those listening that you know, regarding this 1:40:53.040 --> 1:40:58.320 conversation that we're having right now. UM, it essentially comes 1:40:58.360 --> 1:41:01.040 down to choosing whether you into inntionally want to support 1:41:01.200 --> 1:41:06.519 the violations of animals or not. And um, and since 1:41:06.560 --> 1:41:09.120 we do not know how many deaths go into a 1:41:09.240 --> 1:41:14.880 pound or a kilo of rice or beans, and it's 1:41:15.080 --> 1:41:22.920 very reasonable for us to say that that there are 1:41:23.000 --> 1:41:29.200 less violations occurring with those products. Um, if you look 1:41:29.240 --> 1:41:31.400 at like over the course of a year, for example, 1:41:32.040 --> 1:41:34.479 for the consumption of a vegan versus the consumption of 1:41:34.520 --> 1:41:38.439 a hunter someone like yourself, band who also consumes products 1:41:38.479 --> 1:41:42.560 that I consume. Then you know, over the course of 1:41:42.600 --> 1:41:47.080 a year, it's very safe to say that someone like 1:41:47.200 --> 1:41:53.160 myself vegan is going to cause far less violations to animals. 1:41:54.520 --> 1:41:57.040 And so I think that we have a moral obligation. 1:41:57.880 --> 1:42:00.719 And I guess the question for me to the listeners 1:42:00.880 --> 1:42:06.639 is to the question from me is do you believe 1:42:06.760 --> 1:42:13.040 that animal rights is something that you should take serious? 1:42:13.320 --> 1:42:15.519 Do you do believe that you should take animal rights seriously? 1:42:16.040 --> 1:42:19.400 Do you believe that you have the right to violate 1:42:19.439 --> 1:42:22.639 animals and their rights, to take their rights away from them. 1:42:23.400 --> 1:42:25.639 Do you believe that you should care about animal rights 1:42:25.680 --> 1:42:30.280 and you should do something about animal rights when faced 1:42:30.360 --> 1:42:33.519 with the scenario where animal rights are being violated, especially 1:42:33.560 --> 1:42:37.479 when they're being violated by you. And that's what I'd 1:42:37.520 --> 1:42:39.240 like to leave people to think about and to do 1:42:39.360 --> 1:42:41.880 something about, you know. I like to talk to people 1:42:41.920 --> 1:42:44.760 about accountability and the responsibility that each of us as 1:42:44.800 --> 1:42:50.559 individuals have, and I'd like for people to really consider 1:42:50.600 --> 1:42:55.160 their own participate, their own place in all of this, 1:42:55.840 --> 1:42:58.439 because we all have a place in this and the 1:42:58.520 --> 1:43:04.000 world doesn't just it doesn't just run um and operate 1:43:04.120 --> 1:43:09.320 the way that it does accidentally, it operates deliberately because 1:43:09.360 --> 1:43:12.800 of individuals and their choices. So, yes, we all have 1:43:13.040 --> 1:43:17.240 a personal journey, and we all have personal choices. But 1:43:17.439 --> 1:43:20.040 when we have choices that we need to make that 1:43:20.120 --> 1:43:22.680 a personal that violate the rights of others, they're no 1:43:22.800 --> 1:43:27.519 longer personal. They infect everyone else. They affect. And I 1:43:27.600 --> 1:43:29.680 said infect there is a slip of the world, but 1:43:29.760 --> 1:43:32.240 it actually does infect the world because it affects the 1:43:32.240 --> 1:43:35.760 world in such a negative way. And we have the 1:43:35.880 --> 1:43:38.360 power to make positive change in the world, to to 1:43:39.040 --> 1:43:43.439 too cause change, to cause an effect in the world 1:43:43.520 --> 1:43:48.680 that is positive by making the right choice, using that 1:43:48.880 --> 1:43:51.760 guideline to make those choices is going to be a 1:43:51.840 --> 1:43:54.400 lot easier. It's going to be a lot better for 1:43:54.520 --> 1:43:58.400 people to just simply ask that question to themselves that 1:43:58.680 --> 1:44:02.160 rather than asking that question to the world. God. Yeah, 1:44:02.280 --> 1:44:04.120 I mean, there's lots I agree within their lots I 1:44:04.160 --> 1:44:06.600 disagree with. But I guess that's the point and of 1:44:06.720 --> 1:44:10.720 this conversation. Paul listenant, I really appreciate you stepping into 1:44:10.800 --> 1:44:13.360 this um and being so open as to share what 1:44:13.439 --> 1:44:14.880 you do and what you think and how you move 1:44:14.920 --> 1:44:17.040 through the world. I certainly didn't have to do this, 1:44:17.360 --> 1:44:20.040 It wasn't required, um, but I think this will help 1:44:20.080 --> 1:44:22.120 a lot of people both understand where you're coming from 1:44:22.760 --> 1:44:25.760 and understand kind of where the debate hinges upon, and 1:44:26.640 --> 1:44:28.800 make their own decision based on what they've heard today 1:44:28.840 --> 1:44:31.320 and what they'll continue to hear. I'm sure from an 1:44:31.360 --> 1:44:33.680 honesce for the voiceless and also us here at Meat Eater. 1:44:33.800 --> 1:44:35.560 So I just want to say thank you man for 1:44:35.600 --> 1:44:37.680 taking the time to do this. You didn't have to, Yeah, Ben, 1:44:37.920 --> 1:44:40.120 thank you. I appreciate you reaching out and wanting to 1:44:40.400 --> 1:44:45.080 have this discussion. You're certainly one hunter that I've spoken to, 1:44:45.360 --> 1:44:50.080 or one person that exists on the side of eating 1:44:50.600 --> 1:44:56.560 animals and the idea that you know, I guess, the 1:44:56.640 --> 1:44:59.800 carnival side of things, or you know, that idea that 1:45:00.160 --> 1:45:04.599 animals are here to be eating them. Um. Many people 1:45:04.640 --> 1:45:06.320 have reached out to me in the past and haven't 1:45:06.360 --> 1:45:12.320 been as respectful and as intelligent as you have come across. 1:45:12.600 --> 1:45:16.080 So I appreciate that, Ben, really, yeah man, that you 1:45:16.160 --> 1:45:18.919 can reach out to more people, more animal rights activists 1:45:18.960 --> 1:45:21.639 and have these kinds of conversations. I'd recommend Ed. Actually 1:45:21.760 --> 1:45:23.680 you mentioned Ed. Yeah, if you can hook me up 1:45:23.680 --> 1:45:25.240 with him, I tried to. I don't know him, so 1:45:25.280 --> 1:45:27.599 I just tried to, like, you know, kind of sheepishly 1:45:27.720 --> 1:45:30.880 mastered him on Instagram or something. Um, if you know him, 1:45:30.880 --> 1:45:33.080 I would love to continue this conversation with Ed or 1:45:33.080 --> 1:45:36.679 anyone else. Um. Like I said, I really value testing 1:45:36.760 --> 1:45:38.720 my own ideas. I don't want to sit around in 1:45:38.800 --> 1:45:42.200 my own echo chamber and shout how right I am. 1:45:42.280 --> 1:45:44.240 I I want to talk to people. I want to 1:45:44.240 --> 1:45:45.880 talk to people that yeah, I want to talk to 1:45:45.920 --> 1:45:48.560 people that say, like, this ain't right man. UM. So 1:45:48.760 --> 1:45:52.280 I can continue to either shift my position or I 1:45:52.360 --> 1:45:54.759 don't often want to say harden it, but just understand 1:45:54.840 --> 1:45:57.439 it a little bit better. And and I think you know, 1:45:57.520 --> 1:45:59.679 we talked about having your own before on the show, 1:45:59.760 --> 1:46:02.240 and it is like, hey, this, We're gonna contin continue 1:46:02.280 --> 1:46:04.960 down this road, to continue to challenge the things that 1:46:05.080 --> 1:46:08.799 we think are true in order to explore these important 1:46:08.840 --> 1:46:12.120 concepts because they're important. Killing of animals in any way 1:46:12.160 --> 1:46:13.760 that we do it is an important thing for us 1:46:13.840 --> 1:46:16.960 to think about critically. UM. And I know we can 1:46:17.040 --> 1:46:20.840 agree on that for sure. And so and so that's 1:46:20.880 --> 1:46:23.120 what you want to have a chat again in the future, 1:46:23.200 --> 1:46:27.320 i'd great, man, that's great. Awesome dude, Well, I really 1:46:27.360 --> 1:46:30.240 appreciate everything. And again you can check check out what 1:46:30.320 --> 1:46:32.120 they do. Well. We have some videos I know your 1:46:32.160 --> 1:46:34.400 folks send us that will put up on Instagram, so 1:46:34.479 --> 1:46:36.439 you guys can see the Cubic truth and what that 1:46:36.560 --> 1:46:39.439 looks like. And and certainly go go find Paul. Go 1:46:39.560 --> 1:46:41.880 find what he does and explore it. Don't be don't 1:46:41.920 --> 1:46:44.120 be that person that that doesn't want to hear something 1:46:44.160 --> 1:46:46.200 you don't agree with. Be the person that explores it 1:46:46.720 --> 1:46:49.600 and accepts what what it, accepts it for what it is, 1:46:49.680 --> 1:46:52.519 and knows that that these things exist. We exist on 1:46:52.600 --> 1:46:55.240 different polls. So that's what That's what I think. And again, Paul, 1:46:55.240 --> 1:46:57.880 thanks so much, man Um. Hopefully that locked on doesn't 1:46:57.920 --> 1:47:02.680 last too long in no worries. Thanks be alright, Lo, 1:47:03.160 --> 1:47:09.280 because I can't go a week without doing run, without 1:47:10.200 --> 1:47:19.080 run ranking out right drinking