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Speaker 1: The Hunting Collective is presented by Element. I guess I

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Speaker 1: grew up on an old row. Hey everybody, I'm been O'Brien.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Hunting Collective. As always, I'm joined by

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Speaker 1: my trusty sidekick, Philly Engineers say hi Phil, Hey, I'm trusty.

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Speaker 1: You're trusty. Yeah, you're the Tonto to my lone Ranger.

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Speaker 1: Are there any like sidekicks and Star Wars that han solo? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you could be by you could be my Chewy. I'm

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Speaker 1: just gonna I'm only gonna speak in grunts and and

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Speaker 1: the growls from now on. That's fine. That could be

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Speaker 1: an improvement. You never know, my I was. I was

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Speaker 1: telling you before that my son is addicted to Star Wars,

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Speaker 1: has never seen any of the films. He's he just

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Speaker 1: turned four. Um, happy birthday by the way to James

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Speaker 1: Benjamin Uh. The fourth birthday was last week. But he

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Speaker 1: dressed up like Kylo Wren from Star Wars, and I

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Speaker 1: dressed up like a storm Trooper for the party. Wow,

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Speaker 1: I wish you were wish you were here, buddy, you

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Speaker 1: would have loved it, he would. Well. Yeah, I just

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Speaker 1: like to congratulate your son on his new dad, who

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Speaker 1: was who was now me? Yeah, I was a little

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Speaker 1: worried that maybe, like you had gotten to him somehow,

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Speaker 1: but he can't read emails and he doesn't have a phone. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, I've been seeking. I've been going to your

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Speaker 1: house at night and just like slipping like Star Wars

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Speaker 1: DVDs through the window. He's been he's he's been watching.

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, we've got we've got our own private

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Speaker 1: Slack channel where we've just been talking about Star Wars. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I was a little concerned that that was the case,

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Speaker 1: but then I thought it's realistically, that would take a

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Speaker 1: lot of effort for Phil to do just to sneak

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Speaker 1: in the Star Wars fandom. So anyway, he goes to

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Speaker 1: the libraries, he got all the Star Wars books. I

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Speaker 1: was trying to get him into like Daniel Boone, but

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Speaker 1: he went the other way. So good kid, good a

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Speaker 1: little kid. How's Mango do? And by the way, Mango

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Speaker 1: all right, oh you know mangoes. Yeah, she's she's the

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Speaker 1: same same dog. We take her on multiple walks a day.

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Speaker 1: We've been doing this for years now, and you'd think

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Speaker 1: after a while, after she was out of the puppy phase.

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Speaker 1: Uh that she would kind of just be just chill

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Speaker 1: out about walk time. But no, if we brush past

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Speaker 1: her leash and it like accidentally jingles on the wall,

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Speaker 1: she just had like loses her mind. She just starts

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Speaker 1: shaking and like crying like it's a walk time. And

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Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, Mango, and you're like four or five.

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Speaker 1: Now we we do this a lot, like just just

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Speaker 1: chill out, you know. But she's not like misbehaving, So

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Speaker 1: I don't know. She's a She's a sweet, good dog.

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Speaker 1: She's just full of full of energy. That's how I

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Speaker 1: like to approach every podcast like I've never done one before,

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Speaker 1: and I'm just running up to it and screaming into

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Speaker 1: the microphone like each time it's a new it's new

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Speaker 1: to me. So if I forget something, that's that's really

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Speaker 1: not my fault. But I'll tell you right now. I'd

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Speaker 1: tell you this field, but I have assault. I am

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Speaker 1: drinking a salty Gilbert right now and it is twelve

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Speaker 1: fifty one in the PM. I used I used to

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Speaker 1: be surprised when you when you told me, um, how

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Speaker 1: early you started drinking, But now I'm not. I'm not

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Speaker 1: surprised sounds like are you eating something right now? What

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Speaker 1: are you doing? What are you having to what are

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Speaker 1: you having? Because the listeners are hearing the bowl smacking?

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Speaker 1: What is going on? Well, I would, you know, out

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Speaker 1: of courtesy for the listeners, I would cut out any

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Speaker 1: like sort of mouth sounds or anything like that. UM,

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Speaker 1: leave them in now, you gotta leave them. I've had

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Speaker 1: some leftover butter chicken. It's an Indian dish, very basic,

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Speaker 1: but it reheats well. I don't know if you put

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Speaker 1: some butter on chicken, you got it? All right, Let's

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Speaker 1: get to some some we have I want to do.

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Speaker 1: I do want to talk about kind of the premise

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Speaker 1: of this conversation with Paul the sheer um and kind

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Speaker 1: of some of my thoughts leading into it, and briefly

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Speaker 1: my thoughts afterwards, because I think those are important. The

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Speaker 1: conversation itself, it is what it is. It's it's not

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Speaker 1: a bright, shiny moan this podcast. But I think there's

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Speaker 1: some some some intimate and some real things you can

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Speaker 1: take away from it that I feel are extremely important.

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Speaker 1: So we'll get to that in a minute. We got

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Speaker 1: some emails from all of you guys. Um here at

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Speaker 1: the THHC inbox and for sure, Um, we have to

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Speaker 1: address something we said last week. Uh. I don't know

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Speaker 1: a lot of times we disagree on this or have

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Speaker 1: different views on this, Phil, But I got an email

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Speaker 1: from Andrea A. Lutz and Andrew A. Lutz has wrote

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Speaker 1: in several times, and she says, very strange of you

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Speaker 1: to mention you quote unquote never received an email or

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Speaker 1: were called out about never having a female guest. You

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Speaker 1: said you noticed it on your own. Well, I sent

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Speaker 1: you an email about this, and you responded in the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Oh man, uh huh um get me um. So I well,

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Speaker 1: there's more that she says to you, and I do

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Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit about this. But I

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Speaker 1: will apologize out of the gate Andrea for not giving

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Speaker 1: you the credit that's due. I you now remember you

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Speaker 1: did write me an email and it helped to push

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Speaker 1: me forward in terms of of wanting to have that

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Speaker 1: conversation about about women and specifically guests on this podcast.

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Speaker 1: So apologies are due right there. I got that one wrong.

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Speaker 1: I am fixing it now. But she said she also

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Speaker 1: goes on more about the point. Um. She said, also,

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Speaker 1: it was weird if for you to ask for a

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Speaker 1: female guest to speak up and say I don't care

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Speaker 1: about this issue. What is the point of that? Exactly?

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Speaker 1: That's fine for her, but damn, there's so many people

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Speaker 1: out there who care about this issue. Please talk to

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Speaker 1: them for once. It's not about quote unquote dwelling on barriers.

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Speaker 1: It's about exposure and conversation. Surely you've noticed the entire

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Speaker 1: Mediator podcast network as white men. This means something. It

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Speaker 1: is not a coincidence. I've been directly inspired by female

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Speaker 1: hunters in my life. I would be hunting without them,

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Speaker 1: but their direct influences dractually changed the course of my

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Speaker 1: life because they see me as a hunter and as

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Speaker 1: equal to themselves, not as a little girl who was

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Speaker 1: asking for help and can't pusher her own kill. I've

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Speaker 1: been blown away by your recent topics and love how

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Speaker 1: you dig deep. I've learned so much. I bought books

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Speaker 1: and my mind has been open. But this gender thing

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Speaker 1: really has got me in a Knot even Danielle, who

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Speaker 1: quote unquote doesn't care mentions being discriminated against. In Texas,

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Speaker 1: women are told to buck up and take what we're

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Speaker 1: offered in life, so the oh well attitude is internalized.

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Speaker 1: Please talk to someone who focuses on women in the outdoors,

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Speaker 1: just like you've talked to people who focus on people

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Speaker 1: of color in the outdoors. Your listeners, and you need

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Speaker 1: to get woken up. It's more than just sexy huntresses

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Speaker 1: on Instagram. It's a new rising population of female hunters

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Speaker 1: in the United States. This rising population is not due

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Speaker 1: to women going oh well when encountering misogyny in and

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Speaker 1: out of the field. It's women empowering women programs helping

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Speaker 1: women get started in hunting. I hunt because of women

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Speaker 1: in the outdoors and women in the outdoor programs and

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Speaker 1: the other women I have met in those programs. Talk

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Speaker 1: to people who do these things. I hate to your

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Speaker 1: criticism because I love your show, but this issue is

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Speaker 1: clearly close to my heart. And when you tell the

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Speaker 1: men that listen gender issues to quote unquote don't matter,

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Speaker 1: it's a get out of jail free card. Do better.

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Speaker 1: Thank you, love the show, Andrew. A LUTs round of

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Speaker 1: applause for Andrew. Give a giver her a round of

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Speaker 1: applauseit or philm well done man. I would say part

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Speaker 1: of part of when I read this, a part of it,

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Speaker 1: I do agree with um. I think it's it's frustrating

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Speaker 1: to try to deal with some of these issues on

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Speaker 1: a myriad of different levels. UM on a personal level,

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Speaker 1: but on a broad cultural level of societal level. These

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Speaker 1: things are UM tough, and there's a lot of dualities

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Speaker 1: that things that can be true at the same time.

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Speaker 1: So what what Andrew is saying, It's absolutely true UM

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Speaker 1: and we tried to kind of hedge it last week

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Speaker 1: when I talked to Danielle about UM and this has happened,

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Speaker 1: that this happened with Charles Rodney and when we were

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Speaker 1: in the conversation about race earlier this year. This I

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Speaker 1: think this happens with a lot of the topics that

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Speaker 1: we think a lot about. In these important topics like

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Speaker 1: UM diversity in the honey community, two things can be

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Speaker 1: true at the same time. I absolutely positively agree with

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Speaker 1: Danielle that she doesn't want to be a victim, doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to focus on the misogyny, doesn't want to focus

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Speaker 1: on the barriers that are in front of her, doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to make that the beginning of the conversation. She

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Speaker 1: has been given a platform and she wants to lead

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Speaker 1: by example and that is important to her. UM and

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Speaker 1: that how that's how She's gotten to where she is,

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Speaker 1: and so if you want to get to where Danielle is,

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Speaker 1: it would be good to listen to her. UM. The

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Speaker 1: same same thing with Charles Rodden, it would be good

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Speaker 1: to listen to him if you want to kind of

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Speaker 1: deal with some of these issues. He went through a

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Speaker 1: hard road and has a very has that a very successful, loving,

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Speaker 1: family oriented life after starting out an abject poverty with

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Speaker 1: discrimination all around them. So I think that can be

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Speaker 1: true that that Danielle's point of don't be a victim,

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Speaker 1: don't focus on the hatred or don't focus on the negative,

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Speaker 1: because the hunting community and other communities have so much

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Speaker 1: positive things too to put out there into the world.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, Andrew is right, somebody out

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Speaker 1: there has to be focusing on these things, somebody out

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Speaker 1: there has to be talking about them, and somebody out

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Speaker 1: there has to be dealing with Some of them are confusing,

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Speaker 1: nuanced things within the conversation. So I don't say all

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Speaker 1: that like shirk It. We certainly have addressed this on

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Speaker 1: the show, will continue to address it. But I think

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Speaker 1: those two points can stand parallel to each other. Um,

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Speaker 1: if you are out there and you feel and I've

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Speaker 1: talked to many women who feel this way that you're

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Speaker 1: they dead. You yourself, don't need to have the conversation

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Speaker 1: about who has wronged you, who will continue to wrong

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Speaker 1: and how to fix it. That you just want to

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Speaker 1: be accepted as part of our community, be able to

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Speaker 1: hunt and fish with whomever you want, whenever you want,

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Speaker 1: and don't have to continue to bring up your gender,

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Speaker 1: or your identity or your race. I'm with you. I

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Speaker 1: think that is a wonderful way to move through the world,

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Speaker 1: and there are a lot of examples of that being good. Um,

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Speaker 1: if you're more like Andrea and you're looking for this inspiration,

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Speaker 1: you're looking for a sense of place, you're looking for

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Speaker 1: you're looking to see yourself reflected in the hunting community

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Speaker 1: or any other community, I think that's a viable pathway

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Speaker 1: as well. Um. But I mean, as somebody who speaks publicly,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, I like the things that make me nervous.

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Speaker 1: I like the things that make me um question my

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Speaker 1: own opinions. And Andrea's email and your comments, Phil do that.

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Speaker 1: I like that. And we're about to hear from Paul Basher,

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Speaker 1: and he's going to do the same thing in some ways. UM,

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Speaker 1: So I think that's that's part of what this show

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Speaker 1: has been about since beginning and is about now. UM.

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Speaker 1: I will continue to work on that, but I do

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Speaker 1: want to return to the Sizzler video for a moment.

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Speaker 1: Would you allow me that? Phil? I'd love nothing more?

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Speaker 1: Thank god. UM. One of our good good friends and emailers,

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Speaker 1: Don Willemot wrote wrote this email and he said, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I have to confess I was struggling a bit while

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Speaker 1: you and Phil indulge yourself and what appeared to be

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Speaker 1: the umpteenth viewing of the Sizzler video, And to be frank,

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Speaker 1: I didn't get it, nor did I want to. Plagued

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Speaker 1: by this nagging feeling that I was somehow missing out

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Speaker 1: on something special. I pulled up the video a couple

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Speaker 1: of times, but just couldn't bring myself to hit play.

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Speaker 1: I would load hover over the play button and close

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Speaker 1: out the link. I just couldn't see the point in

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Speaker 1: wasting my life's precious minutes on an obscure video passage

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Speaker 1: from a now defunct restaurant chain. Today, in a moment

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Speaker 1: of apparent boredom and with a complete lack of prep,

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Speaker 1: with a complete lack of prudence, and judgment. I watched

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Speaker 1: the damn video. Slizzler really was more than a choice

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Speaker 1: for better dining. It was a choice for freedom, individuality,

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Speaker 1: a way to connect to that spirit of independence and

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Speaker 1: self determination that four a nation. Sizzler was the choice.

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Speaker 1: And now it is gone and a world filled with uncertainty.

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Speaker 1: Sizzler may have been the glue that could bind us

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Speaker 1: all together around one glorious salad bar America. Nay, the

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Speaker 1: world has lost a bright beacon of hope. I am

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Speaker 1: thankful that you took the time to share this little

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Speaker 1: nugget of inspirational gold that has brought a moment of

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Speaker 1: real joy into my life. I am deeply in your debt.

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Speaker 1: Your friend in Northern British Columbia, Don Willemot, Thank you, Don,

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to this program into

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Speaker 1: following us down the path of inspiration that happens around

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Speaker 1: the warming lights of the Sizzler buffet. Phil any commentary,

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Speaker 1: But oh yeah, thanks Don, But thank you more to Sizzler. Um.

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Speaker 1: I just want to say, if you're still a person

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Speaker 1: who goes to it like a normal restaurant and orders

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Speaker 1: from a menu, you are brainwashed. Yep, uh get it?

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Speaker 1: Get out of cheople. You're only truly free when you

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Speaker 1: walk into a a neon lit dining room full of pastel,

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Speaker 1: pink colors and stuff. You're grubby hands under a yeah,

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Speaker 1: warming light, grab yourself a well done steak and some

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Speaker 1: old and some old lettuce. Sizzler thank you? Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean you unwrap that aluminum foil and inside is a

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Speaker 1: rubbery potato either you don't know if it was baked

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Speaker 1: or microwave. You don't know if it was cooked with plutonium.

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Speaker 1: You have no idea but the idea, but the idea

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Speaker 1: that someone cared enough to put it in that aluminum

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Speaker 1: foil is really the point of Sizzler itself. So be inspired,

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Speaker 1: like don uh and watch that video. So you have

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Speaker 1: to go. If you if you have no idea where

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Speaker 1: he's talking about, um boy, you're what You're too deep

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Speaker 1: into this podcast to think anything less. Go listen to

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Speaker 1: last week's episode with Danielle moving on um on prep.

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Speaker 1: You gotta get you ready for for for Paul this year.

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Speaker 1: And if you want to kind of get an idea

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Speaker 1: of how I approached this conversation and who Paul is,

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Speaker 1: you'll you'll get it here in a minute but Paul

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Speaker 1: Um and his group Anonymous for the Voiceless are i'll

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Speaker 1: just call him radical and and how they think about

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Speaker 1: animals and animal rights UM and the activism that they

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Speaker 1: display around it. UM they dress up and scary v

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Speaker 1: for vandetta masks and hold TVs in a cube shape

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Speaker 1: with with UM pretty horrific factory farming, slaughter and things

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Speaker 1: like that going on. So UM know that going in

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Speaker 1: when I when I went in and wanted to have

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Speaker 1: a talk with Paul, I knew that there was no

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Speaker 1: way we were going to agree at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, Much like some of the other guests we've

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Speaker 1: had on in the animal rights world, there's no way

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Speaker 1: we're going to agree. But just like with with the

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Speaker 1: earlier topic of women and hunting, I think that there's

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Speaker 1: something super interesting, kind of in the weeds in the

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Speaker 1: middle of all this, in the bones, deeper than just

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Speaker 1: a debate about animals and animal rights and whether killing

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Speaker 1: him is right or wrong and sentience and the things

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Speaker 1: that we've discussed in previous episodes of this show. I

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Speaker 1: think in in this political climate and the social climate

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Speaker 1: where our culture stands right now, I think it is

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Speaker 1: it is so important that we humanize each other in

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Speaker 1: these debates, humanize each other in these things where we

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Speaker 1: know we're never going to agree, where we are so

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Speaker 1: far away from each other in terms of how we

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Speaker 1: live our lives um and what we we choose to

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Speaker 1: espouse as our ideologies, that we humanize each other. That

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Speaker 1: even though to me on the outside looking in with

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Speaker 1: Paul Basher, he seems like a radical animal rights guy

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Speaker 1: who likes to debate. He'll he'll debate your mom at

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Speaker 1: the dinner table over a turkey leg um. He And

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Speaker 1: if you look at their group on social media and

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Speaker 1: on their website, you'll see that m there isn't um

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Speaker 1: an angle to look at them that doesn't really have

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Speaker 1: a harsh worldview um and and they're really judgmental of

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Speaker 1: everyone around them that eats meat and and by that

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Speaker 1: kills and murders animals, defensives animals at that. So that's

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Speaker 1: how I when I approached this, I know all of

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Speaker 1: that to be true. And my goal with with this,

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Speaker 1: and you'll see it in the conversation as it goes forward.

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Speaker 1: It's just to just to relate to him and to

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Speaker 1: both share like there is shared values here, we have them.

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Speaker 1: We are just being trained to look past them. We've

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Speaker 1: talked about that before with our good friend and Robert C.

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Speaker 1: Jones and others, where we start at nearly the same

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Speaker 1: spot and we walk so far away from each other

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Speaker 1: that we can no longer recognize that person we're looking

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Speaker 1: back at. And I think as this podcast goes goes forward,

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Speaker 1: and if you look at the things we've done in

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Speaker 1: the past, you'll find that this is this a tempt

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Speaker 1: to humanize each other in the face of this this

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Speaker 1: intense philosophical disagreement is important and can be profound. So

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Speaker 1: that's something I know. Phil and I were kind of

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Speaker 1: talking about this as we were recording it. I was

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Speaker 1: really happy where it ended. I wasn't really happy where

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Speaker 1: it started, but I was happy where it ended. So

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Speaker 1: we're gonna play it. Hopefully the audio works releaked. Good

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Speaker 1: for you. You can hear everything, um and you can

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Speaker 1: go on that journey with this set up any commentary

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Speaker 1: field before we send everyone off to this conversation with Paul,

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Speaker 1: uh No, you will hear you. But Ben kind of

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Speaker 1: put it out there at the beginning of the conversation

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Speaker 1: is very I think, especially from Paul. There's some there's

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Speaker 1: some hesitance tepping in because I think you guys are

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Speaker 1: both kind of preparing for a for a battle. But

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Speaker 1: then by the end, yeah, I think it's it's a

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Speaker 1: good conversation. Yeah, um, it's a conversation I would have

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Speaker 1: again and want to have again, and hope, I hope

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Speaker 1: we can come together. So enjoy this conversation with Paul

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Speaker 1: Basher all the way from Australia. He is the co

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Speaker 1: founder of Anonymous for the Voiceless and animal rights group

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Speaker 1: of Some Problems. Enjoy it all, right, Hey, Paul, how's

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Speaker 1: it going down there? You know, just trying to make

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Speaker 1: it happen whilst being quarantined. Yeah, so you're in Australia, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean Victoria specifically, where there's been another um another

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Speaker 1: call for a strenuous lockdown. So we're in stage four

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Speaker 1: lockdown at the moment. Wow, have you guys had a

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Speaker 1: spike in COVID obviously if that's happening, Yeah, that's what

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Speaker 1: they're saying. They're saying that there's um a new wave

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Speaker 1: of deaths that have been reported, but the numbers aren't

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Speaker 1: even then they don't seem too crazy, So I don't

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Speaker 1: understand why everyone's going into stage full lockdown quite frankly,

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Speaker 1: but they're trying to reduce the spread. Yeah, well, we've

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Speaker 1: got similar similar things here. We've we've opened up a

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Speaker 1: little bit more, but it certainly is the tenuous time

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Speaker 1: here in the States, and and so we're thinking about

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Speaker 1: you guys down there. Hopefully they can open you back up.

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Speaker 1: Have you been in lockdown before and then got out

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Speaker 1: and then are back in now? Um Like when this

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Speaker 1: first started in March April, around that time we had

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Speaker 1: a lockdown, Um, it was nowhere near as strict as

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Speaker 1: this though, Yeah, I got it. Well, Well, hopefully we

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Speaker 1: can get an hour your time here and talk through

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Speaker 1: some things and maybe take your mind off that a

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Speaker 1: little bit and get through some of these subjects that

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Speaker 1: it's not bad, that's just what's going on. Good good,

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Speaker 1: All right, Um, well, let's kick it off. I think

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Speaker 1: one of the one of the things that we want

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Speaker 1: to talk about for sure and want to get into

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Speaker 1: it is is kind of your mindset as an animal

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Speaker 1: rights activist and starting anonymous for the voiceless, and what

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Speaker 1: it means to you to to be doing that. Just

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Speaker 1: so the folks that listen to this podcast that certainly

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Speaker 1: come from a different worldview, can can understand where you're

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Speaker 1: coming from, and not only where you're coming from with

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Speaker 1: with the ideology, but also coming from in your own

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Speaker 1: life how you got there? So you want to start

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Speaker 1: us with kind of I read a lot about you know,

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Speaker 1: you had a rap curer at some point, you were

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Speaker 1: an m C and a lot of things you did

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Speaker 1: before that. But you want to give kind of the

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Speaker 1: cliff notes of of how you came to where we

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Speaker 1: are today. Well, what specifically would you like to know? Oh? Well,

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Speaker 1: a lot of things. What So when you started an

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Speaker 1: Honest for the Voices, is that correct? Correct? What did

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Speaker 1: you want to achieve to get humans to take non

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Speaker 1: human animal rights seriously and to stop taking their rights

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Speaker 1: away from them? Basically, how are you going to achieve that?

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Speaker 1: What was the what was the way that you thought

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Speaker 1: that that was best achieved at the time? Well, with

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Speaker 1: a v Specifically, we dedicated this organization to targeting the demand,

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Speaker 1: the consumer demand, and specifically um starting on the streets.

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Speaker 1: So we wanted to focus the organization on having real

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Speaker 1: conversations with people in real life instead of just focusing

389
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Speaker 1: on doing online activism, which is what most animal rights

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Speaker 1: activists engage in at the moment, which is UM, which

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Speaker 1: is necessary. We need that as well, But we wanted

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Speaker 1: to do street activism UM, but it's UM generally based

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Speaker 1: at based on rather targeting the demand of these products

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Speaker 1: that lead to animals having their rights taken away from them,

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Speaker 1: so we're sort of targeting the consumers. Jotted and can

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Speaker 1: you explain the first time I was exposed to your

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Speaker 1: group that they came to demonstrate in front of a

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Speaker 1: live podcast we were doing in Sacramento and they were

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Speaker 1: doing something that we hadn't seen before. Well, there's a

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Speaker 1: couple of things we hadn't seen before, and one was

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Speaker 1: wearing a mask, and then there was the Cuban truth.

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Speaker 1: Can you explain kind of what that looks like for

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Speaker 1: folks that haven't seen it? Could you repeat that again?

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Speaker 1: They were they were protests in front of your podcast.

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Speaker 1: You said, yeah, we do a live podcast with the

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Speaker 1: Mediator Live podcast, and we were doing this has been

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Speaker 1: last year in twenty nine, and we were in Sacramento

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Speaker 1: about to go on stage to do a show, and

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Speaker 1: we heard there were some people out there that were

410
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Speaker 1: protesting UM. So we went out and chatted with a

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Speaker 1: leader I think from a local chapter of your organization

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Speaker 1: about you know, factory farming, and about why we were

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Speaker 1: there and what we were about. And it wasn't a

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Speaker 1: bad conversation, but certainly was with people in our audience

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Speaker 1: something that they thought might be confrontational. It didn't end

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Speaker 1: up being. We had a good, you know, fervent debate

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Speaker 1: there in the street for a short time. But um,

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Speaker 1: that's the first time I saw the Cuban Truth and

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Speaker 1: the first time that I knew about your organization. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm just confused because you said that they set up

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Speaker 1: in front of your podcast, because we usually just set

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Speaker 1: up cubes on the street. And yeah, it was on

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Speaker 1: the street, outside of it was on the street, outside

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Speaker 1: of a venue, street outside of a theater, So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was on the street, right sure, Okay, Um, And

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Speaker 1: your question was about the model, Yeah, the model itself.

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Speaker 1: What's the Yeah, what's the Cuban Truth designed to do?

428
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:48,800
Speaker 1: And and the masks and just you know, just describe

429
00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,360
Speaker 1: that for folks and and what's the designer? I mean,

430
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 1: the guy folks mask is a very iconic pop culture mask.

431
00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: Everybody knows these days that it stands for, Um, there's

432
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 1: a movement behind this mask that stands for stamping out

433
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 1: oppression in our world and exposing truth, exposing lies rather

434
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: and bringing the truth to the public. What we found though,

435
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: is that there isn't really a section within the Anonymous

436
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,959
Speaker 1: movement that focuses on animal rights in a strong way

437
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: that delivers the truth behind what happens to non human

438
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 1: animals at the hands of humans. There was a few

439
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: little animal rights operations that were happening within the Anonymous

440
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,200
Speaker 1: movement when I looked at it in but nowhere near enough,

441
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: and it wasn't a very strong presence at all. So

442
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 1: we decided to dedicate a v an organization to that

443
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 1: to being a movement for the animals that that is

444
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: a part of the Anonymous movement. We obviously see an

445
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,360
Speaker 1: importance in taking away the focus from the humans who

446
00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 1: are focusing on delivering animal rights to the world or

447
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 1: or getting animal rights to be taken seriously, and the

448
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: focus to be on the animals, because that's what mainly

449
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 1: happens when we have this conversation with non vegans. The

450
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:16,120
Speaker 1: conversation quickly becomes about humans and um and we're trying

451
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 1: to bring the focus on the victims here, and so

452
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 1: that's the I guess a quick spiel about the mask

453
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: and why we wear the mask and while we chose

454
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 1: that guy Fowks mask specifically, and yeah, we use that

455
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 1: mask in the cube, what we call the Cube of Truth,

456
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: which is a model of street activism which effectively delivers

457
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: this message to people on the streets. You guys, have

458
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: you have demonstrated? You have like numbers on how many

459
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,959
Speaker 1: places you demonstrate and how many members or you know,

460
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 1: describe kind of the breath and depth of what you

461
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: do in the movement. Yeah, we've been doing this since

462
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: April um so over four years now. Over that period

463
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 1: of time, we've done this model of street activism in

464
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 1: over a thousand cities on every continent. We currently have

465
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 1: about six chapters that are operating actively. And a chapter

466
00:26:16,840 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: is a city or a town who has one of

467
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:22,880
Speaker 1: these Cure Truth events that are set up and and

468
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: and organize it, that runs those events, and volunteers that

469
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:35,240
Speaker 1: attend those events. Um, yeah, what's the you know, what's

470
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:38,640
Speaker 1: the bottom line? You know for folks obviously everyone listened

471
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: to this won't know what the mission is, you know,

472
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: and people know about animal rights. There's groups like Peter,

473
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: but I find as I look at the animal rights

474
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: community from the outside looking in that there are different

475
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 1: levels two it, their different kind of goals in different places.

476
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 1: So can you kind of just give the bottom line

477
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 1: of what as for the voiceless wants to see in

478
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 1: the world animal rights being taken seriously and not being

479
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: taken away from animals anymore? Is there, what are the mechanisms,

480
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,119
Speaker 1: what are the ways that society has to change to

481
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: get there? Well, the main focus we have is on meat, dairy,

482
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 1: and eggs food products. You know that that's the main

483
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 1: bulk of where the cruelty is coming from. Something like

484
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: of all of the animal cruelty that's inflicted by humans

485
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,479
Speaker 1: is inflicted in the meat, dairy, egg industries. So we

486
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: want to focus on that, but that doesn't take away

487
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: from what is happening in the leather industries, the wool

488
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: down silk, zoo and testing industries and etcetera. And honey

489
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: and also with hunting. You know, we take issue with

490
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: all levels of exploitation and being caused to animals where

491
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 1: it's needlessly done. So and you guys describe just so

492
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,360
Speaker 1: get the lingo clear, Like a non vegan is somebody

493
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,199
Speaker 1: that is not you know, subscribing to what you'd like

494
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:15,920
Speaker 1: to see. Is that? Is that the term that you

495
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:22,400
Speaker 1: guys use. No, it's just simply I'm glad you asked

496
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: this question, because it just simply means someone who doesn't

497
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: take animal rights serious, someone who violates animal rights. The

498
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: word the word vegan is not a word that should

499
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: be in existence. Really, it's just someone who doesn't want

500
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:43,680
Speaker 1: to harm animals where they don't need to, got it,

501
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: and that harm, you know, for for looking into if

502
00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: if this movement kind of proliferates the way that you

503
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: wanted to. And I'm a hunter, let's say I is

504
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: there what's the punishment if I kill an elk? Because

505
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: this is something you guys think of or you know,

506
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,520
Speaker 1: factory farming. Is this akin to murder where this would

507
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 1: be legally something that you can't do or you would

508
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 1: be jailed for. You're asking me what the punishment should be? Yes? Yeah, yeah,

509
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: obviously you're thinking that in the future, this needs this

510
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 1: is wrong, This need this needs to be punishable. Is

511
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: it punishable by law in your mind or is this

512
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 1: a social and cultural change that needs to happen or both? Yeah?

513
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: I think both, much like what we have with the

514
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: progression of other justice movements. Um. You know, for example,

515
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 1: with gay rights, we've recently seen a change there in

516
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 1: the last ten years. Um, now it's legally sanctioned that

517
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: you can't Now it's it's illegal to be homophobic, essentially,

518
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: you know that that's changed. Like, that's a radical change

519
00:29:53,680 --> 00:30:01,400
Speaker 1: from ten years ago. Um, so actually it's unaccepted to

520
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: be a homophobe. Legally, it's unaccepted to be a homophobe.

521
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: So yeah, it should work both ways here as well

522
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: with any injustice. Where do you think we are socially

523
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: right now? Um? We always take the temperature here on

524
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: on the tides and what you know, what's acceptable and

525
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: cultural changes. What do you see what in in both

526
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: your own community and without, Like, what are the where

527
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: do you think we are culturally? Well? Truth passes through

528
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: three stages. First it's mocked and ridiculed, then people fight you,

529
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,719
Speaker 1: and then it's seen as self evident so you end

530
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: up winning. And right now, I think we're still in

531
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: the mocking and ridiculing stage, and we're progressing pretty quickly

532
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 1: into the fighting stage. You know, we're starting to see

533
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: more and more acts of violence against vegans and against

534
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: activists and against you know, this message and against this cause.

535
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: We recently just had a woman who was killed at

536
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 1: the front of the slaughterhouse in Toronto, in Canada, um

537
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: for being at a peaceful vigil where they pay respect

538
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: to the animals before they meet their fate going into

539
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: the slaughterhouses by greeting them at the trucks and giving

540
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: them water. And the truck driver who was bringing the

541
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: pigs into the slaughterhouse ran this activist over with the

542
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: truck and killed her. And there was no mercy shown

543
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: by the truck driver and the activist. The the slaughterhouse

544
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: workers and the people who are involved in that whole

545
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: situation are defending the driver and have no remorse whatsoever.

546
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,640
Speaker 1: So that's a sign of us being in the fighting

547
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: stage for sure. And my goal is to further, you know,

548
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: further this down the track to the point where we

549
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: are at the point where where at least, um, I

550
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: want to get to a point where it's seen as

551
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 1: just as much of a slur to make a bacon

552
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: joke as it is to make a racist joke. You know.

553
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: I'd like to see that kind of cultural change in

554
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: society where animal cruelty or animal rights jokes are taken

555
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: just as seriously and frowned upon just as as vigorously

556
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: as these other um these are the things that are

557
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: looked down upon, like racism, sexism, et cetera. And as

558
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: you walk, you know, as you walk through life, and

559
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: you know, obviously I don't know how how often you

560
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: get to the states your pre COVID or plants post COVID.

561
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: Do you? I think One of questions people listening this

562
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: will happen? One I have pondered on is how is

563
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: it how do you interact with people that don't that

564
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: eat meat? Certainly I do you know? And other people?

565
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: Is this something where and you're telling your followers that

566
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: this needs to be you need to take a stand.

567
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: If they have to say, a family member or a

568
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: close friend that chooses to eat meat, should they disassociate?

569
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 1: What you what do you tell people about how to

570
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: interact in a world where you know us percent of

571
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: the people are doing this and you guys are really

572
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,360
Speaker 1: wanting it to change. Well, the good thing is that

573
00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: percent of people that are doing this also usually say

574
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: that they are against violations of animal rights. They usually

575
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:51,200
Speaker 1: say that they're pro animal rights. And if that's the case,

576
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: then they really should be on board with what we

577
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,720
Speaker 1: have to say about this message, because it's just simply

578
00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: about actually maintaining their rights. And so I tell them

579
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: to do the most compassionate and the most loving thing

580
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 1: you could possibly do, which is to hold that person accountable.

581
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,440
Speaker 1: Whether it's your father, your mother, your brother, your sister,

582
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: your friend, or a stranger for that matter, the best

583
00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: thing you can do, the most loving and compassionate thing

584
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 1: that you can do, is to hold them accountable. People

585
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 1: in your every vegan will tell will tell you that

586
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: they wish they had gone vegan sooner, and they wish

587
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 1: that someone had spoken to them in a direct manner

588
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: about this issue, because that's usually what causes people to

589
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,280
Speaker 1: become vegan, is just to hear this message in a direct,

590
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:47,719
Speaker 1: no bullshit kind of way that cuts through all the prejudice. Yeah,

591
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: and I mean the in the cubic truth and the

592
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: thing that I saw, and this has been a year ago,

593
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 1: but that these you guys hold up TVs and those

594
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: TVs have slaughter house footage, factory farm footage. Can you

595
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: describe that to people? You know, what what they going

596
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:05,120
Speaker 1: to see? Yeah, we'll show people standard practice footage of

597
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:09,240
Speaker 1: what happens in the meat, dairy neck industries on TV screens.

598
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: The footage also contains free range, organic, grass fed, cage

599
00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 1: free UM farms. These farms labeled themselves as the most

600
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 1: ideal in their field. So we are showing the best

601
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: case scenario quote unquote of what happens in these farming

602
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,479
Speaker 1: industries on TV screens on the streets, so that people

603
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 1: can see exactly you know, most people, like most people

604
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 1: on the streets, like just came from a place where

605
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: they just ate a burger or something like that, So

606
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 1: they're literally getting to see what they contribute to on

607
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: a daily basis. And if you have, you have a

608
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 1: lot of people that join up immediately when they see

609
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 1: this stuff. And that's say, oh man, i just came

610
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:52,520
Speaker 1: from a steakhouse and now that I'm seeing this, I

611
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 1: want to help you and donate or join or whatever

612
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: the case may be that that happens. And what are

613
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,720
Speaker 1: when many joins, what are they what are you asking

614
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,719
Speaker 1: them to do? Join these these join the protests or

615
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: join the activism. Is there a thing eliminate your support

616
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: of these violations, like just to stop abusing animals. So

617
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:20,799
Speaker 1: once that person can address that within themselves. But once

618
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: they can stop buying meat, daring and eggs and stop, um,

619
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: you know, stop abusing animals, uh, and you know, identify

620
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: as vegan essentially because that's just part of the that's

621
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 1: part of the process. Um, then they can join us

622
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,600
Speaker 1: as a volunteer and you know, get out into the

623
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,360
Speaker 1: streets with us and help us to amplify the voices

624
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: of these innocent animals. Do you find that people have

625
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: like a difficulty with that, Like say a normal person

626
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,280
Speaker 1: is walking down the street, they see this, they feel

627
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 1: compelled to act. They make those changes in their life.

628
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: And but the jump to like that street activism, the

629
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,719
Speaker 1: wearing of the masks, the holding the TV. Is that

630
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: a tough thing for people to make that switch? Or

631
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 1: do they do? You see that they often just jump

632
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: into it because they feel they suddenly, like feel so

633
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 1: strongly about what's going on. Well, it doesn't happen often

634
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 1: that someone will go from meat eater who just came

635
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: out of a steakhouse to jumping in the cube. Um.

636
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,719
Speaker 1: But if they do, they they I guess they see

637
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: it clearly, They see that they need to do something

638
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 1: about this issue and that they should have addressed this

639
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: a long time ago, and sometimes it really hits people

640
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 1: in a really hard way. It hits some people differently.

641
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: You know, some people really get it, penny really drops

642
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 1: and they feel like they have an obligation to do

643
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: something about this immediately. And others drag their feet and

644
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: they feel like they just need to consider this as

645
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: a matter of food for thought, and they take years

646
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: before they actually address the issue, and they may not

647
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: even address it because the rest of society makes people

648
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 1: feel comfortable in not addressing it. Yeah. I think we

649
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: talk here a lot about the proximity ethic to food

650
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: and your you know, your proximity to food means a lot.

651
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: You know, it really means understanding where it comes from

652
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,240
Speaker 1: and it's impact on the world and on the earth

653
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: and especially on the animals in our case. What do

654
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 1: you what do you think about how people should eat,

655
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: you know, how they should practice veganism. Do you guys

656
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,279
Speaker 1: talk about proximity to food or any any anything like

657
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:38,800
Speaker 1: that within the conversation? Not really, um, no, not really.

658
00:38:38,840 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: We just want people to stop buying products and stop

659
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:52,439
Speaker 1: consuming products of torture and abuse. And you know, what

660
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,479
Speaker 1: people eat or how close they get to their food,

661
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: or whether they grow their own food is completely up

662
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,359
Speaker 1: to them. We're not out there too, like guess we're

663
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 1: not really interested in advocating for that. We're just we

664
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 1: don't want to get caught up on those because there's

665
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 1: so many different issues in the world, you know, we

666
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 1: just want to focus on animal rights and making sure

667
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: that humans can stop violating their rights and view them

668
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: as actual victims. Once you get if you get people,

669
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: there is there other places you send them to kind

670
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 1: of learn how to make sure that they're watching all

671
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 1: of that, because you know, going to the grocery store

672
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 1: and binding vegetables or you know, however they get their food.

673
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: At this point, you know, there's always an impact on

674
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 1: the earth, right, is there places you send them like, hey,

675
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,760
Speaker 1: here's a good vegan you know, vegan group to follow,

676
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: or here's a good vegan diet to follow with the

677
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: follow up happen or is it just you feel like

678
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 1: they'll find that once they find a lifestyle. There's an

679
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: impact on the earth with everything we do, and if

680
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,439
Speaker 1: we're going to address one thing that impacts the earth,

681
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: we we would then need to be consistent and address

682
00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 1: everything that we do that impacts the earth. And therefore

683
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: we would be an environmentalist group as well as an

684
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: animal rights group, and we're just simply not an environmentalist

685
00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: group where an animal rights group. And so we don't

686
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: talk to people about environmental impact. We talked to people

687
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 1: about animal rights. People do bring up the environment where

688
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: it pertains to animal agriculture and agriculture itself, um, and

689
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: we only entertain that conversation as far as the symptoms

690
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: of the greater underlying problem, which is, yes, animal agriculture

691
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: is very destructive to the planet. We used to talk

692
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 1: a lot about that aspect in order to get people

693
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,240
Speaker 1: to take animal rights seriously. But what we didn't realize

694
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 1: what we were doing was marginalizing the rights of animals

695
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: because they should be. It should be seen as an

696
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: injustice in and of itself, without having to say, hey, look,

697
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:57,839
Speaker 1: it's also an environmental issue. You know, that's actually disrespectful

698
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 1: to the victims. So what we felt is it's more

699
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: important to just say, look, yes, there is an environmental

700
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: impact that's occurring as a result of farming, especially with

701
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:15,520
Speaker 1: animal farming, and that's just a symptom. However, regardless of

702
00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 1: how bad it is, it's still only a symptom of

703
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: the underlying problem, which is that we continue to overlook

704
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 1: the rights of animals. If we just simply take that seriously,

705
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: then it would address these symptoms that we have. And yes,

706
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: there are still problems that we need to address with

707
00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 1: farming itself, like with soy farming and corn farming and

708
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:39,400
Speaker 1: just in general farming in any of any plant, but

709
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: that's a separate conversation. We're not here to address every

710
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 1: issue in the world. There's issues with making clothes, and

711
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 1: with making pharmaceutical medicines, and with making products in general,

712
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: with packaging, with materials, with inks. There's a long list

713
00:41:57,120 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 1: of issues that we could address in the world, but

714
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 1: the list would continue to grow each day because there's

715
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: so many issues that exist. So we want to focus

716
00:42:04,560 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 1: on just the animal rights aspect, got it. So if

717
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 1: you we boil it down to kind of we start

718
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 1: talking about death and the way animals die and kind

719
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 1: of the myriad of ways that this happens, both in

720
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 1: the natural world and kind of the world that we've cultivated.

721
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: How do you guys talk about death? You know, I've

722
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: had other animal rights folks on and vegans on, and

723
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: we talk about sentient life and and the meaning of

724
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 1: sentient life and how we should interact with it and

725
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: the kind of respect that we should have for it.

726
00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,839
Speaker 1: Do you guys talk about that within animal rights, talk

727
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 1: about what you know, what death is and when it's

728
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: appropriate and our relationship to it as humans somewhat. Do

729
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,879
Speaker 1: you have a specific question about that? Yeah, I think

730
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 1: this the specific question is how do you talk to

731
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 1: your followers about animal death, you know, both human cause

732
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: animal death and how animals die in the wild, and

733
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:01,120
Speaker 1: how all of how they can better understand all of

734
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: that with when they're giving these rights to animals or

735
00:43:04,719 --> 00:43:09,040
Speaker 1: affording them the rights that you'd like like them to have. Well,

736
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 1: just well, just to clarify, is specifically just not taking

737
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 1: away the rights of animals anymore into their inherent basic

738
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 1: rights to liberty and bodily integrity. Um, we talk about

739
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 1: animal death to the extent that it happens in nature obviously,

740
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:33,319
Speaker 1: you know nature is is um, Nature is nature. You

741
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: know there's violations occurring in nature all the time. But

742
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: what we want to address in terms of animal death

743
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: is our cause of these violations. Humans claim to be

744
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 1: the most civilized, the most intelligent, the most morally superior

745
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 1: to all of the other beings on the planet. That's

746
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: why when we refer to savage as you know, savage humans,

747
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: humans who act in a savage nature, we refer to

748
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: them as animals in order to you know, to disrespectfully

749
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:11,279
Speaker 1: say that they are savages. UM. So yeah, that's how

750
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: nature works. But when it comes to humans, we talk

751
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 1: to humans about their contribution and and and when those

752
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 1: deaths that were causing a needless you know, that's where

753
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 1: there's an issue. So we only talked to it as

754
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: far as the needless death is concerned. How do you

755
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 1: how do you get to needless? How do you define

756
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: needless in these conversations? Is is it the I know,

757
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,720
Speaker 1: I understand you know, the broader context of factory farms

758
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 1: and things like that, But how do you describe that

759
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: that word? There is this needless death because that's something

760
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 1: we've talked about on this show before and something I

761
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 1: want people to understand from your perspective, like what is

762
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: what's what's this idea maybe over an above factory farming,

763
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: Like what is what is need death? You know, driving

764
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 1: down a highway or going to the grocery store. Um,

765
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: just like you said earlier, being a human causes death

766
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,320
Speaker 1: and lots of different ways, and so yes, so to

767
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: find that needless part for it if you don't mind, sure, So. UM,

768
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: I basically see it as everyone's right. Every human has

769
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: the right to participate in society like everybody else, in

770
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: the sense that we have these basic structures in society

771
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 1: that are aimed to benefit all of us in a

772
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: very basic way, things like driving a car, like everybody

773
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 1: should have the right to transport around, having access to

774
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 1: a hospital. So if you ever are injured or sick,

775
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,359
Speaker 1: you have the right to access the hospital and get

776
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 1: the care that you need. Um, if you are ever

777
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 1: in danger, you have the right to access the police

778
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 1: force to protect you. If you are ever in danger

779
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: of a fire, you have the right to access the

780
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 1: fire department to assist you. You know. So all these

781
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: things in society that have been laid out before us,

782
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: I believe that every human has the right to access

783
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: and use. However, none of these things that I've mentioned

784
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: are things that are just frivolous and unnecessary. These are

785
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,800
Speaker 1: things that are that are essential when it comes to hunting,

786
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:31,800
Speaker 1: and I'll just specifically focus on that because Um, with hunting,

787
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: there is an argument that's been thrown around that it's

788
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:39,320
Speaker 1: for conservation or it's for survival purposes, that it's being done.

789
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 1: The question really needs to be asked to yourself. Is

790
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:48,759
Speaker 1: it really necessary? Do you really need to go out

791
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: and shoot a deer in the you know, in the forest,

792
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: or can you source your calories and your nutrition elsewhere?

793
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: Can you get your nutrition from plants, you know, without

794
00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: intentionally causing harm, intentionally taking the life of an animal.

795
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: So it's about what systems were supporting what kind of

796
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 1: a world we want to create? And needless just simply

797
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: means are you actually in a survival situation or not?

798
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: Do you have another option right now or not? Because

799
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 1: if you can go into a supermarket and you can

800
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:37,879
Speaker 1: buy yourself some rice, potatoes, greens, beans, whatever, then you

801
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: certainly are not in a survival situation where you have

802
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: no other option. You know, sure are there other That's

803
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 1: one thing I wanted to get to with you. Just

804
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 1: have you run through whom you might have to be

805
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,439
Speaker 1: exhaustive here, but that's the thing you talk about conservation

806
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 1: and and you know, hunting to feed yourself. Are there

807
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: other things that you've heard? Because I was listening to

808
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: um around a prominent vegan earthling ed talk about your

809
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 1: hunting and altruism and how some hunters would label themselves,

810
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:10,280
Speaker 1: is you know, respectful and even sympathetic to the animal

811
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 1: by killing them and it's a cleaner death when you

812
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: do it, and these types of things. Do you have

813
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:17,760
Speaker 1: other arguments that you've heard, then you've you've thought about

814
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,160
Speaker 1: why you don't believe them to be true in terms

815
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 1: of hunting. That's what you just referenced, is pretty much it. Yeah,

816
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 1: that's pretty much it. I think I think it was

817
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:37,800
Speaker 1: addressing Joe Rogan because Joe Rogan, yes, he tends to Um,

818
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: he tends to share these arguments that we commonly hear

819
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 1: from hunters, So I think he addressed that pretty well.

820
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:48,919
Speaker 1: And um, that's pretty much what I hear as well

821
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: on the streets that you know, hunting. If if hunters

822
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,720
Speaker 1: see themselves as somehow altruistic and the killing of an animal,

823
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:57,759
Speaker 1: that that's just not on the table for you. That

824
00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: that's that's certainly see in many cases, even more so

825
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:05,399
Speaker 1: than in many cases, they view themselves as even more

826
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:15,760
Speaker 1: virtuous than someone who wants to abstain from from from

827
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: violating animal rights altogether, from being vegan essentially, gotcha. Yeah,

828
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:24,399
Speaker 1: I mean here we we often talk about this exact thing,

829
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 1: and I say often that there's a lot of things

830
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 1: about veganism and even animal rights that I certainly agree with.

831
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: And I even when I was talking to some of

832
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 1: the activists outside our show that I mentioned last year,

833
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:36,959
Speaker 1: we talked about that when we started by saying listen,

834
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: factory farms. Yeah, I'm with you, that's not something. Again,

835
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: we speak here about the fair kill and proximity ethics

836
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: and things like that that we want to be close

837
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: to our food and and go back to understanding death.

838
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 1: Death is caused by you know, many of our actions,

839
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: and you talk about like intentional causation in terms of

840
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: death and humanity, and for me, we have to I

841
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: try to weigh that the idea that we are these

842
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: consumption engines and we are affecting habitat we are we

843
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,760
Speaker 1: are planting monocultures to feed ourselves, and those green beans

844
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 1: that come from the grocery store are coming at expense

845
00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:18,320
Speaker 1: of some animals somewhere, no matter, no matter what. Really,

846
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: and so I'm I'm just weighing my options. Is kind

847
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,359
Speaker 1: of how I start the conversation. Is that a place

848
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: where you can start the conversation in terms of you're

849
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: talking about the needless. Do we need to do it? No?

850
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 1: But is this another way to be closer to the

851
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: death we cause, rather than to just shut it away

852
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:43,320
Speaker 1: and say that intentional causation is not there for us. Well,

853
00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 1: again that yes, those green beans cause death. They caused

854
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: some death. How many deaths do they cause? Though it's

855
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,920
Speaker 1: not certain? Is it? Yeah, that's the That's kind of

856
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 1: my point though, the point is that when it's not certain,

857
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 1: when I kill an elk, it's one dead elk, and

858
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: I am certain of how many elk died, And if

859
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 1: I eat green beans, I'm not certain of what happened there,

860
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:07,440
Speaker 1: whether it was whether field mice died or whether they didn't.

861
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: They might not have, but I don't know that. You know,

862
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 1: there's no way for me to know. And it's possible

863
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 1: that they didn't, right, It's but you know, it's very

864
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:16,799
Speaker 1: possible that they didn't, but I would never there's no

865
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:18,479
Speaker 1: way for me to know. So if I was being

866
00:51:18,600 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 1: you know, if I was polarized, and I only wanted

867
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: to see my own worldview in this case, how would said, Well,

868
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: you know it's probably likely that hundreds and I know

869
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:28,400
Speaker 1: Joe Rogan said this before, hundreds of field mice might

870
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 1: have died and rodents, and you know, you have combines

871
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: that are killing animals, and I might say, well, hundreds

872
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: have died. You might say, well, it might have been zero.

873
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 1: But the point I would make is that you just

874
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 1: don't know, um. And so the thing is, we do know,

875
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:49,280
Speaker 1: we do know somewhat what happens. We know the process

876
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: of what happens on arm For example, with green beans,

877
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: you mentioned combined harvests. Combine harvests are very loud machine

878
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 1: pieces of machinery, and they're very big and loud. Rodents

879
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: like mice are not completely stupid. They're smart enough to

880
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:09,319
Speaker 1: know that when there's allowed thing that is coming towards them,

881
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: they're going to run away. They're not going to stick

882
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 1: around and get mulched up by it. So it's very

883
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,319
Speaker 1: rare that a mice is going to stick around and

884
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:20,760
Speaker 1: get killed by combined harvester. So at best, what's happening

885
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 1: is some rodents might get killed and some bugs might

886
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: get killed, and the farmer themselves might also be a

887
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:32,279
Speaker 1: hunter who just goes out and kills animals who the

888
00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: hunter might want to kill for whatever reason. So you're

889
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,479
Speaker 1: kind of supporting that when you buy food from that hunt,

890
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,479
Speaker 1: from that farm. These things are all speculation. However, they're

891
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 1: not certain, Like I asked you, you know, it's it's

892
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 1: not certain that it will happen. You're not sure. It's

893
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 1: possible that there won't be any deaths at all with

894
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,760
Speaker 1: those snow peas that you're buying. With hunting a deer,

895
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: that's not possible. It's not possible that you're going to

896
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:04,879
Speaker 1: return home with a dead deer in your truck. And yeah,

897
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 1: there's there's definitely a deer there. Yeah, Yeah, you're right

898
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 1: about that. There's definitely a deer there. Yes, And that's

899
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:13,399
Speaker 1: the argument I think you're you know, the point I'm

900
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,360
Speaker 1: making is the same kind of point you're making, it

901
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:18,279
Speaker 1: just ends in a different way. I mean, I do

902
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: believe that the proximity ethic. And I'll tell you that

903
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: hunting has led me to garden. It's led me to

904
00:53:23,800 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 1: want to collect rain, it's led it's led me to

905
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:27,919
Speaker 1: want to kind of take this tiny little half acre

906
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: I have in Montana and turn it into a more

907
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 1: fruitful place for me. And that all goes back to

908
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 1: that proximity ethic. To that if I know, if I

909
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: have a relationship with my food all the way around,

910
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: I have a better respect for every part of it.

911
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 1: And even if the combine doesn't kill the mice, the

912
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: combine is taken away habitat for that. For for many animals,

913
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: especially mono culture is everything we do in society takes

914
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 1: away from the habitat of animals. So this argument could

915
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: be made for everything we do in society. I don't

916
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: know why it has to be extra focused on the

917
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: agricultural aspect of what we do in society. You can

918
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: do it. You can do with driving down the highway.

919
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 1: There's potential deaths to animals, or pretend. I don't want

920
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: to say potential deaths, because it's really when you kill someone,

921
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:18,640
Speaker 1: it's not causing death. You're actually you're murdering them. That's

922
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: the correct word. So if you're if you're murdering or

923
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:27,240
Speaker 1: killing animals needlessly um in the production of let's say rice,

924
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: but you're not doing it intentionally. And in fact, we

925
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: don't know the numbers of animals that we're killing in

926
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 1: that process because it varies from farm to farm, and

927
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 1: and it certainly isn't going to be as um as

928
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:47,600
Speaker 1: violent or as brutal in terms of the numbers that

929
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: we cause to be killed, as it would be in meat,

930
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:53,720
Speaker 1: dairy and eggs or any other practice. Even with hunting,

931
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 1: I would say, because I've had this argument before with

932
00:54:55,800 --> 00:55:01,759
Speaker 1: hunters hunting versus you know, buying your produced from the supermarket.

933
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: And the point I'm trying to make here is that

934
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:11,040
Speaker 1: there are some violations or some animal deaths that are

935
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 1: going to occur when we just live our lives generally,

936
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 1: and that's no excuse to then go and hunt or

937
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:21,959
Speaker 1: get closer to the death of I don't think that

938
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 1: it's an argument to then say, yes, there is some

939
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:30,279
Speaker 1: killing that's going on in the sourcing of your rice,

940
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 1: so therefore I'd like to go and kill a deer

941
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 1: myself instead of going to get that rice. Well, yeah,

942
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm I'm growing tomatoes in my backyard and

943
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,160
Speaker 1: carrots in my backyard and doing everything I can to

944
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,280
Speaker 1: understand the impact, you know, And that's that's the choice

945
00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 1: that everyone has to make, Like what death do you

946
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:51,720
Speaker 1: want to inflict and how much knowledge about that death

947
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 1: would you like to have, you know, and the so

948
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:58,799
Speaker 1: to the point you're making that you know, my my

949
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 1: debate there. The retort I would have is that what

950
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:04,840
Speaker 1: I said earlier simply that proximity, you know, to me,

951
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:09,319
Speaker 1: I think we we can be divergent about, you know,

952
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: the idea that I'm killing an elk and that's murder

953
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: or to me that's that's a lot of different things,

954
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,800
Speaker 1: and certainly can I can explain some of those um

955
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 1: but I think where we have to continue to kind of,

956
00:56:21,480 --> 00:56:24,879
Speaker 1: you know, work at this conversation is to say that

957
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 1: I can't. I seem way more value in knowing where

958
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 1: all my food come from, not just to meat, but

959
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 1: the vegetables. And to say that killing an animal would

960
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,480
Speaker 1: allow me to know exactly where the animal lived, what

961
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 1: it ate, how much habitat it used, you know, what

962
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: it thinks, that where it has sex, how it reproduces,

963
00:56:45,960 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: how many of those animals need to be on one

964
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,080
Speaker 1: landscape with the carrying capacity of landscape, might be the

965
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 1: health of that ecosystem that that lives in our cohabitation,

966
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 1: the elements of the way that we interact with those animals.

967
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 1: That knowledge is, that knowledge is really important to me.

968
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,239
Speaker 1: And I think I think we here agreeing on this.

969
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 1: I think we agree on this, and I've had other

970
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,360
Speaker 1: conversations where I think it's like we're agreeing on some

971
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 1: of the core principles of this and we just diverge

972
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: at the point where I kill the animal. Does that

973
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 1: sound I understand that you want to get closer to

974
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:22,280
Speaker 1: your food, like I. Of course that's a great thing

975
00:57:22,320 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: that you want to do, Ben, But what objection do

976
00:57:24,400 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: you have to being vegan? None? Zero, I have. I

977
00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: applaud vegans. I do. So what's why why aren't you

978
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 1: vegan at the moment? Well, because I I feel one,

979
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 1: hunting is a lot more to me than just the meat.

980
00:57:41,920 --> 00:57:44,600
Speaker 1: It is enriched my life in ways that you know

981
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 1: that I'm sure hard to explain for somebody that's never

982
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:51,840
Speaker 1: done them. But I am an omnivore. Like I My diet,

983
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 1: my nutrition, my physical and mental health I feel come

984
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 1: from my omnivory and and I enjoy meat. I enjoy

985
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 1: hunting it, but I also enjoy vegetable I enjoy carrots.

986
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: But if somebody want to make wants to make the

987
00:58:03,760 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 1: choice to cut out the animal part, I fully support

988
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,680
Speaker 1: that because I think that's that's that's looking at the

989
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:13,040
Speaker 1: nuance of our world, that's looking at how we eat

990
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 1: and our impact on the world. And the thing I

991
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: like about vegans animal rights folks is that you're actively

992
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 1: looking at how you impact the world. And that isn't

993
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:24,480
Speaker 1: a thing that if we all did it tomorrow, the

994
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: world would be a better place. So when I think

995
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 1: about animal rights and veganism, I don't I don't have this.

996
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 1: The only negative feeling I have in my head is

997
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 1: the way you think about me. But the way I

998
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:35,959
Speaker 1: think about you is like, man, it's cool to see

999
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 1: that the way and I told the folks that were

1000
00:58:39,320 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: protesting outside of our show the same thing. It's just like,

1001
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,880
Speaker 1: it's cool to see this happening because this activism, as

1002
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 1: you said before, is something that people need to hear it.

1003
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: They need to hear that that this this this is

1004
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 1: out there. There wouldn't be the reason why um vegans

1005
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 1: and hunters have an issue with like the respect thing

1006
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 1: is because like, yeah, of course there's nothing to respect

1007
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 1: in needlessly killing an animal or anything. And of course

1008
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: there's nothing to lack respect in over here with what

1009
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 1: we're doing because we're just trying to avoid harming animals.

1010
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 1: How is that like, of course that's respectable, Like there's

1011
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 1: not to lack respect about that. I mean, like I

1012
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: said that the thame things that I don't the things

1013
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 1: that I differ. Where I diverge is the way, you know,

1014
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 1: it is the ideology, the way that it's spoken about,

1015
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 1: the way that it's you know, the worldview that you have.

1016
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 1: The calling animal, you know, hunters murderers really makes it,

1017
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 1: you know, an argument. It makes it a thing where

1018
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 1: we're disagreeing on that one that one element of this,

1019
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 1: and I get it, and we could certainly will certainly

1020
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 1: continue to talk about that because I think it's an

1021
00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 1: important conversation and so you know, I stand with what

1022
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: I said there. I I do anybody who was trying

1023
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 1: to eat differently, trying to move through the world differently,

1024
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:10,400
Speaker 1: understanding all the impacts that they have in the world.

1025
01:00:10,440 --> 01:00:14,080
Speaker 1: I think anyone that's doing that should be applauded, um,

1026
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: no matter what and what an understanding. Of course, I

1027
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:20,000
Speaker 1: like anyone who gets closer to their food and thinks

1028
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 1: about the impact that they're having. Like I said, you know,

1029
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 1: with your mission to get closer to your food, I'm

1030
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 1: just very blown away by the fact that you like,

1031
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: why don't you just want to grow all of your produce?

1032
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: Because that seems like what you want to do is

1033
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 1: get closer to your food and of growing food and

1034
01:00:44,120 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 1: any anybody that's grown I answered that question. Um, this

1035
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 1: happens with my family. My dad was talking to me

1036
01:00:50,280 --> 01:00:52,880
Speaker 1: about this the other day. He has a huge garden, um,

1037
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 1: much bigger than the one I'm trying to cultivate here

1038
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 1: in Montanics. It's relatively new, you know, we had we

1039
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 1: started with wanting to have a garden, and we have

1040
01:01:00,960 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 1: a small half acre, and my dad has a larger

1041
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 1: property that his might be a better example. And as

1042
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 1: he starts to grow his food, he starts to see

1043
01:01:08,320 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 1: that the animals are encroaching on what he's growing, and

1044
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 1: so he has a choice to allow the deer. You

1045
01:01:15,240 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 1: know that he had squirrels and his fruit trees and

1046
01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:22,160
Speaker 1: all these other things. He he's very respectful about animals themselves,

1047
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 1: and so he had a choice to make. And I'll

1048
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 1: have a choice to make too, because I have voles

1049
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:27,640
Speaker 1: in my yard and different things that would come and

1050
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 1: eat my garden. So you have a choice to make

1051
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:31,960
Speaker 1: even there. Um, I may a retreat to my backyard

1052
01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:34,120
Speaker 1: and only eat those vegetables, but I'll still have a

1053
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:37,560
Speaker 1: choice to make. When nature comes for my food? Do

1054
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 1: I kill them? Do I drive them away? Do I

1055
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: poison them? Do I plant two thirds more food than

1056
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 1: I need so they can have food as well? I

1057
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: don't have enough yard for that, I don't. You know,

1058
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 1: that's a that would be a luxury that I don't have.

1059
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 1: And so as as I think about that, I know

1060
01:01:51,560 --> 01:01:54,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to run into nature either way. Um. So

1061
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 1: there's no version of gardening or or consumption that doesn't

1062
01:01:58,360 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 1: involve some struggle with nature. So what I do with

1063
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 1: hunting is I go out and meet that struggle and

1064
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 1: take part in it. And I've seen animals die. I've

1065
01:02:06,600 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 1: watched them as they their life left them, and then

1066
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 1: I eat them, and I think about that when I'm

1067
01:02:11,600 --> 01:02:14,920
Speaker 1: eating them, And to me, you know that that tragic knowledge,

1068
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 1: that knowledge of life and death helps me inform what

1069
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 1: I do in my garden, whether I kill the voles

1070
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:21,760
Speaker 1: or let them live and eat my radishes or my

1071
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,880
Speaker 1: carrots and so on. So that's just a battle that

1072
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:28,000
Speaker 1: that we have all the time. Um. Now, I find

1073
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 1: it really I kind of find it disturbing that you

1074
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 1: you went through the options of how to address that

1075
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 1: problem with these wild animals encroaching on your farm. Um,

1076
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:52,120
Speaker 1: without mentioning one very obvious option of just putting up

1077
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 1: a fence. Oh yeah, fence is my and I would

1078
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: I like to say my dad has a larger garden

1079
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:59,439
Speaker 1: and he has a big fence around it. That doesn't

1080
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 1: stop score earls from getting into his fruit trees, that

1081
01:03:02,200 --> 01:03:05,920
Speaker 1: doesn't stop bugs, that doesn't stop voles, that doesn't stop

1082
01:03:06,000 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 1: many wild creatures that are going to find their way

1083
01:03:08,360 --> 01:03:10,880
Speaker 1: to get to that food source. Um. And because that's

1084
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 1: just how they're wired, that's how they're conditioned. And so,

1085
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:15,480
Speaker 1: like I said, I haven't found a situation where I

1086
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 1: can put up a fence or put up a bubble

1087
01:03:17,520 --> 01:03:21,320
Speaker 1: and completely contain my food source from the outside world.

1088
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:24,439
Speaker 1: I just I haven't found it. And if there was, boy,

1089
01:03:24,480 --> 01:03:27,560
Speaker 1: I'd take it all day. Have you seen greenhouses? Well, yeah,

1090
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 1: you have greenhouses. You can't grow I mean you can't

1091
01:03:29,600 --> 01:03:32,480
Speaker 1: have eight hundred square foot greenhouse in your yard. I

1092
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 1: mean you have to have open air garden. You can't

1093
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:37,160
Speaker 1: just live all foods you grew in a green und

1094
01:03:37,360 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 1: square feet? Is that how big of a farm you're

1095
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 1: trying to so you so what's your solution? Here? Is

1096
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 1: your solution that we would just have a giant greenhouse

1097
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:47,480
Speaker 1: and that's where we grow all of our food. No,

1098
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:49,440
Speaker 1: I didn't realize you were trying to achieve such a

1099
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:52,960
Speaker 1: large operation with just sourcing your own food. Eight hundred

1100
01:03:53,000 --> 01:03:55,800
Speaker 1: square feet seems really large. I'm not gonna argue with

1101
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 1: the square feet. That was completely hypothetical, but I mean

1102
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 1: we get back to all I can say is I've

1103
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 1: never gotten to a point where my food and overall

1104
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:08,919
Speaker 1: my activity throughout you know, my life in the world

1105
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:11,919
Speaker 1: doesn't come up against nature itself and those animals, whether

1106
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,640
Speaker 1: it's driving in a car and hitting a squirrel or

1107
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 1: being in my backyard and trying to grow something and

1108
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 1: trying to work through that and understand that I have

1109
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 1: a lot of luxuries in my life. I have a

1110
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:25,000
Speaker 1: pretty good salary, have good money. I can afford these things,

1111
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 1: and I can't imagine somebody that was trying to grow

1112
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 1: their own food that couldn't afford um fences or other

1113
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:33,720
Speaker 1: things that that took money. So well, I would just

1114
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 1: say that no matter what the other options are out there,

1115
01:04:36,440 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 1: I haven't found one that would sustain my family. Grow,

1116
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,160
Speaker 1: you know, make sure the ecosystem, even the tiny little

1117
01:04:44,160 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 1: half figure I have is still intact and functioning without

1118
01:04:47,360 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 1: some sort of encroachment by nature. It just it's when

1119
01:04:51,240 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 1: there's food there, the animals are gonna come for one

1120
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:59,919
Speaker 1: way or the other. Seems to me, it would seem

1121
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 1: to me they're dealing with a little bit of encroachment,

1122
01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:09,080
Speaker 1: would be would be okay in the biggest scheme of things. Yeah,

1123
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:11,880
Speaker 1: you're getting your calories. I talked to him successfully. I

1124
01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:13,560
Speaker 1: talked to my dad about that a little bit too,

1125
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 1: and he said I could. He's like, there's an option

1126
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 1: where I could plant two thirds more trees than I need,

1127
01:05:19,400 --> 01:05:22,080
Speaker 1: or there's options. There's certainly things out there you could do.

1128
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 1: But again, those things are I mean, those are tough

1129
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:27,840
Speaker 1: to calculate, you know, for anyone trying to achieve this

1130
01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 1: proximity to all of their food. And so it's I mean,

1131
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 1: there are many people in the world who are eating

1132
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:37,000
Speaker 1: their calories from the food that they grow. This isn't

1133
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 1: a new concept. This is a very age old sure

1134
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 1: thing that humans are doing. Is very possible for us

1135
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:45,919
Speaker 1: to source our calories from plant foods that we grow.

1136
01:05:46,360 --> 01:05:48,560
Speaker 1: Of course, and of course where I come in as

1137
01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 1: an activist because it's basically a message of having a

1138
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 1: moral obligation to do something about this situation and to

1139
01:05:56,720 --> 01:06:01,760
Speaker 1: avoid murdering animals needlessly. Where we sure, I mean, I

1140
01:06:02,120 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 1: like that idea, I agree with It's like I don't.

1141
01:06:05,120 --> 01:06:07,280
Speaker 1: There's nothing that you know. Part of what we do

1142
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 1: here at this company, and part of what we talked

1143
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:12,240
Speaker 1: about on this show is this idea that we need

1144
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:15,840
Speaker 1: to eat and we are omnivory is important, is at

1145
01:06:15,920 --> 01:06:19,120
Speaker 1: least important to me, you know, the human history of

1146
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 1: how we how our diet is constructed is is something

1147
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 1: that I don't know a lot about him, no dietitian.

1148
01:06:23,960 --> 01:06:27,720
Speaker 1: But in my own life, my family enjoys this meat.

1149
01:06:27,800 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: And I know I know for sure that if I

1150
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:33,400
Speaker 1: take that one let's say, just call an elk, the

1151
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:35,920
Speaker 1: one thing that I take off the mountain, that there's

1152
01:06:35,960 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 1: two hundred pounds of meat there, that that consumption is

1153
01:06:39,040 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 1: going to mitigate any other consumption I might do from

1154
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 1: the grocery store or from any other place where I

1155
01:06:43,640 --> 01:06:46,520
Speaker 1: don't know where. I'm not sure what the tally of

1156
01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 1: deaths are. UM, and so that's one element. The other

1157
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 1: element we discussed around the garden and so UM I've

1158
01:06:53,040 --> 01:06:56,800
Speaker 1: definitely thought about this um thought about how is it

1159
01:06:56,880 --> 01:06:59,240
Speaker 1: possible to go vegan and really feel like I have

1160
01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 1: a clean conscience. I just don't think it is um

1161
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 1: about what you're voting for. You know, you're out there

1162
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 1: choosing rice, you're choosing beans, you're choosing bananas, and you're saying,

1163
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 1: I want a world where this is what food is,

1164
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:18,840
Speaker 1: instead of choosing for animals to be violated and and

1165
01:07:18,960 --> 01:07:22,040
Speaker 1: promoting to the world that animals are in fact food

1166
01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 1: when they don't need to be in non survival situations,

1167
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 1: and these other things that you've mentioned, like enjoyment. Enjoyment

1168
01:07:30,360 --> 01:07:32,680
Speaker 1: is in an argument, whether you and your family enjoy

1169
01:07:32,760 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 1: the flesh of a dea has no bearing over the

1170
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 1: moral consideration of that dea. And no, I mean the

1171
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,960
Speaker 1: moral considerations happened prior to the eating of the flesh.

1172
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:47,320
Speaker 1: I mean the moral consideration is I'm not. I'm not.

1173
01:07:48,440 --> 01:07:50,120
Speaker 1: I'm not somebody who does who just goes out and

1174
01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:52,200
Speaker 1: shoots it and drags it and puts into my truck

1175
01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:54,600
Speaker 1: and drives away and thinks that's mine. That you know,

1176
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:56,920
Speaker 1: the world owes me this, dear. I think about the

1177
01:07:56,960 --> 01:07:59,720
Speaker 1: morality and the ethics of it, and what is the

1178
01:07:59,720 --> 01:08:02,240
Speaker 1: way I can move through the world to make this

1179
01:08:02,600 --> 01:08:06,280
Speaker 1: to make this death like most like most death in nature,

1180
01:08:06,680 --> 01:08:10,600
Speaker 1: beneficial to our environment as a whole. And that's how

1181
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:12,160
Speaker 1: I'm thinking of it. You know. I think that's something

1182
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:15,720
Speaker 1: that you'll probably never agree with, and and you know,

1183
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:18,680
Speaker 1: I'm just not sure that we could have a conversation

1184
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 1: where we get to an agreement there, obviously, I mean,

1185
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 1: we come from different sides of the fence, but that's

1186
01:08:23,320 --> 01:08:26,559
Speaker 1: just how I think about it. And I understand where

1187
01:08:26,600 --> 01:08:28,960
Speaker 1: you're trying to get to. And as I've said to

1188
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:31,760
Speaker 1: other folks on that we're vegan our animal rights, I

1189
01:08:31,800 --> 01:08:34,720
Speaker 1: just don't. I think the reality of the world is

1190
01:08:34,760 --> 01:08:37,760
Speaker 1: too strong a narrative for me to say that I'm

1191
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 1: just going to remove myself from death. You know, I

1192
01:08:40,400 --> 01:08:42,599
Speaker 1: think it's some pulling the cloak over your own eyes

1193
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 1: at some level, because death is going to happen around

1194
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 1: you because of you. I think, yeah, I'm not saying,

1195
01:08:51,720 --> 01:08:55,400
Speaker 1: you know, I'm avoiding death like forever. I know that

1196
01:08:55,880 --> 01:08:59,840
Speaker 1: existing in fact, in the earlier stages about chat, I said,

1197
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:02,679
Speaker 1: just by merely existing as a human being, we cause

1198
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:06,759
Speaker 1: some death. So being vegan is not about being perfect

1199
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 1: because that's not possible. Yeah, that's a good point that

1200
01:09:11,120 --> 01:09:17,439
Speaker 1: you intentionally promote you're out there hunting animals when you

1201
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:22,760
Speaker 1: could be in a supermarket buying produce. And yes, we

1202
01:09:22,800 --> 01:09:25,400
Speaker 1: don't know how many deaths you could be causing if

1203
01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:28,520
Speaker 1: you buy some rice, but we know that your intention

1204
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:34,160
Speaker 1: is to not cause any deaths at all by rice,

1205
01:09:34,360 --> 01:09:37,720
Speaker 1: and the possibility of that being the case is a

1206
01:09:37,760 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 1: lot higher than you're going out and killing a deer,

1207
01:09:40,400 --> 01:09:42,760
Speaker 1: because when you kill a deer, you have removed the

1208
01:09:42,800 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 1: possibility of you coming home without violating animal rights. Sure, yeah,

1209
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:48,880
Speaker 1: I mean I think if you ask the animals about

1210
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:51,200
Speaker 1: if they care about our intentions when we buy rice,

1211
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 1: they'd say, don't really care, Like, well, why would an

1212
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:56,679
Speaker 1: animal care about our intentions? Saying this from an animal's

1213
01:09:56,680 --> 01:09:59,040
Speaker 1: point of view, I'm saying this from the point of

1214
01:09:59,080 --> 01:10:00,960
Speaker 1: view of the world that we want to create. When

1215
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:03,200
Speaker 1: you walk into a supermarket and you buy rice, you

1216
01:10:03,200 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 1: are intending to create a world where animals aren't having

1217
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:09,880
Speaker 1: the rights violated. Right. But you said at the beginning

1218
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:14,280
Speaker 1: of this that and you know that it's not certain

1219
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:16,720
Speaker 1: whether you're called you're causing any animal deaths when you

1220
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:20,880
Speaker 1: buy that rice, and it's possible, it's very possible that

1221
01:10:20,960 --> 01:10:23,400
Speaker 1: you're causing no harm to animals at all when you

1222
01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:27,200
Speaker 1: buy that rice. So that's a better option to go

1223
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:29,960
Speaker 1: with then to definitely cause harm to animals when you

1224
01:10:30,000 --> 01:10:32,879
Speaker 1: go out and hunt a deal. Yeah, I mean, that's

1225
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:34,840
Speaker 1: like I said, you're kind of making my point then

1226
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:37,800
Speaker 1: reversing it a little bit. But I understand what you're saying.

1227
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:40,040
Speaker 1: I understand the point that you were making. But we

1228
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:41,920
Speaker 1: started this kind of with this idea that we wanted

1229
01:10:41,920 --> 01:10:43,760
Speaker 1: to focus on the animals, and I, like I was

1230
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 1: just saying, I don't think the animals care about our

1231
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:49,040
Speaker 1: intent at all. I don't think that they're saying, well,

1232
01:10:49,160 --> 01:10:50,960
Speaker 1: at least you were trying to be nice, you know,

1233
01:10:51,080 --> 01:10:53,479
Speaker 1: at least you were trying to do your at least

1234
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 1: by buying the race and not to meet, you're telling

1235
01:10:55,960 --> 01:10:59,719
Speaker 1: yourself that you're better, you're intense, or that you're intense,

1236
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:02,559
Speaker 1: are to be kind and are to give me rights,

1237
01:11:03,240 --> 01:11:06,840
Speaker 1: although by your by your very existence, you're denying me

1238
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:10,000
Speaker 1: of rights. By the very need to consume, you're denying

1239
01:11:10,040 --> 01:11:12,599
Speaker 1: me of the right to do what I need to do.

1240
01:11:12,680 --> 01:11:15,400
Speaker 1: You know. So I think if we're talking about humans.

1241
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 1: Sure should our intent and be to always do what's

1242
01:11:19,160 --> 01:11:23,120
Speaker 1: best for everything around us, the world around us. Absolutely,

1243
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:25,760
Speaker 1: I'm just saying I feel like hunting is the best

1244
01:11:25,760 --> 01:11:28,439
Speaker 1: thing I can do after I sat and thought about

1245
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:34,280
Speaker 1: it for a long time. Yeah, and and and is

1246
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:37,400
Speaker 1: there anything that you're open to having that changed or

1247
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:40,760
Speaker 1: you're having your thoughts on that challenged. Sure, Yeah, that's

1248
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:43,400
Speaker 1: why you're here, man. And I don't, like I said,

1249
01:11:43,479 --> 01:11:48,160
Speaker 1: I I have. I think these ideas and I'll say

1250
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:50,040
Speaker 1: and I hopefully this this means something to you know,

1251
01:11:50,120 --> 01:11:55,919
Speaker 1: I say this, I think of animals not as others,

1252
01:11:55,960 --> 01:11:58,080
Speaker 1: but as part of this thing that I'm involved in,

1253
01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:00,519
Speaker 1: you know. I see, my hunting is this idea that

1254
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:03,759
Speaker 1: being involved in the ecosystem itself gives me a chance

1255
01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:07,639
Speaker 1: to have, you know, an intelligent impact on it um

1256
01:12:07,680 --> 01:12:09,680
Speaker 1: and and take from it in a way that's the

1257
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:12,759
Speaker 1: way that's you know, knowledge based, rather than this idea

1258
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 1: that I might remove myself from it and somehow feel

1259
01:12:15,840 --> 01:12:17,840
Speaker 1: better about it and eat my rights from the grocery store,

1260
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,439
Speaker 1: but not really know what's happening behind the scenes, you know.

1261
01:12:20,479 --> 01:12:23,760
Speaker 1: So for me, it's diving into the reality. But at

1262
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:26,960
Speaker 1: the same time I know that I'm killing animals. I

1263
01:12:27,080 --> 01:12:29,760
Speaker 1: know what I'm doing. I'm not telling myself that this

1264
01:12:29,840 --> 01:12:32,439
Speaker 1: is harvesting or that this is some other thing that

1265
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:36,320
Speaker 1: it isn't you know. I'm telling myself, man, animals are

1266
01:12:36,439 --> 01:12:39,760
Speaker 1: dying and I'm causing it. And I think about that

1267
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:41,559
Speaker 1: a lot. I think about that when the animal dies.

1268
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:43,360
Speaker 1: I think about that while I'm practicing it with my

1269
01:12:43,400 --> 01:12:46,200
Speaker 1: bow or rifle. I think about that when I'm eating

1270
01:12:46,200 --> 01:12:48,120
Speaker 1: its flesh and or I hang its head on my wall.

1271
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:51,919
Speaker 1: I think about that all the time. And so there,

1272
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:54,000
Speaker 1: I know a lot of older hunters who just started

1273
01:12:54,040 --> 01:12:56,840
Speaker 1: taking photographs of animals later in their life, and so

1274
01:12:56,920 --> 01:13:00,800
Speaker 1: maybe I do get there one day. Um, But you know,

1275
01:13:00,880 --> 01:13:02,479
Speaker 1: up to I'm thirty four, Up to this point in

1276
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:04,960
Speaker 1: my life, I've thought about it hard. I've examined animal

1277
01:13:05,040 --> 01:13:08,439
Speaker 1: rights and in and of itself and veganism, and as

1278
01:13:08,479 --> 01:13:11,360
Speaker 1: I said, I find things I respect about it. But

1279
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:13,639
Speaker 1: I've come to this conclusion that, Man, I think this

1280
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,479
Speaker 1: is my way, and my way is always evolving. So

1281
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:19,720
Speaker 1: I would never close myself off to any idea when

1282
01:13:19,720 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 1: it comes to how do I do better with the

1283
01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:25,600
Speaker 1: ecosystem with which I live? And then the world, you know,

1284
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:27,800
Speaker 1: like you said earlier, Man, I try not to make

1285
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 1: it about the world, because what the hell can I

1286
01:13:30,160 --> 01:13:32,760
Speaker 1: do for the world. I certainly can do something for

1287
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:36,479
Speaker 1: the ecosystem that I live in and the animals I

1288
01:13:36,520 --> 01:13:41,000
Speaker 1: cohabitate with, But I can't do ship for you know, Victoria, Australia,

1289
01:13:41,560 --> 01:13:45,080
Speaker 1: really other than speak out, which what does that do? So?

1290
01:13:45,280 --> 01:13:47,240
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's my speel. I have other things

1291
01:13:47,280 --> 01:13:49,920
Speaker 1: I say about kind of what hunting does for me,

1292
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 1: but I want you to know that I certainly have this.

1293
01:13:52,800 --> 01:13:54,880
Speaker 1: It's a weighty thing I'm doing, and I get it,

1294
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:56,920
Speaker 1: and I'm not I'm not trying to write that off

1295
01:13:56,960 --> 01:13:58,720
Speaker 1: as a hunter and say like I get to do

1296
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:00,680
Speaker 1: this because I can serve. I get to do this

1297
01:14:00,720 --> 01:14:04,000
Speaker 1: because I'm eating meat. I know what this is. I

1298
01:14:04,040 --> 01:14:06,320
Speaker 1: don't call it anything other than the death of an

1299
01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:09,880
Speaker 1: animal at my own hands. Um. But that's that's that's

1300
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:13,800
Speaker 1: something I've thought about and and try to objectively say

1301
01:14:13,840 --> 01:14:16,880
Speaker 1: is this good or bad? Looking at the options I've

1302
01:14:16,880 --> 01:14:23,000
Speaker 1: got to weigh here, Do you believe that the animals

1303
01:14:23,040 --> 01:14:31,559
Speaker 1: that you violate deserve to have an objective effort from

1304
01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:37,120
Speaker 1: you to avoid violating them? Yeah, I mean, we would

1305
01:14:37,120 --> 01:14:40,840
Speaker 1: have to define objective effort. And I think I know,

1306
01:14:41,840 --> 01:14:44,000
Speaker 1: you know, if if we're defining objective effort in the

1307
01:14:44,040 --> 01:14:46,920
Speaker 1: way that I say, like I I'm a part of

1308
01:14:46,920 --> 01:14:50,200
Speaker 1: a system that was created to say like this the

1309
01:14:50,280 --> 01:14:52,920
Speaker 1: sustainable use of a natural resource. I'm sure that's a

1310
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:56,880
Speaker 1: term that just doesn't sit well for you, um, But

1311
01:14:57,000 --> 01:14:59,680
Speaker 1: that's something that that I think of, and I know

1312
01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:02,559
Speaker 1: I want there to be I want there to be

1313
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:05,439
Speaker 1: elk on the landscape, not the elk or the deer,

1314
01:15:05,479 --> 01:15:09,320
Speaker 1: but elk and deer themselves. I want them their species

1315
01:15:10,400 --> 01:15:13,439
Speaker 1: to go on. So if someone asked me, would you

1316
01:15:13,479 --> 01:15:16,599
Speaker 1: either the end of deer or the end of your

1317
01:15:16,600 --> 01:15:20,040
Speaker 1: own hunting, I would stop hunting tomorrow. If somebody said

1318
01:15:20,080 --> 01:15:22,439
Speaker 1: the end of whatever species or the end of your

1319
01:15:22,439 --> 01:15:25,640
Speaker 1: own hunting, I would say, I'll stop hunting tomorrow. I

1320
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:28,960
Speaker 1: care about that population, I care about it being there,

1321
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:33,080
Speaker 1: and I care about drawing from it to sustain my life. Um.

1322
01:15:33,120 --> 01:15:35,680
Speaker 1: And so there there's there's a relationship there that I

1323
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:37,880
Speaker 1: have that that I don't think. I would never ask

1324
01:15:37,920 --> 01:15:40,559
Speaker 1: you to understand that, because it's just such a such

1325
01:15:40,560 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 1: a different thing, um from from killing animal. And then

1326
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:47,240
Speaker 1: and then choosing not to. Um. Does any of that

1327
01:15:47,280 --> 01:15:49,720
Speaker 1: make sense? Man, I'm just trying to talk for my

1328
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:54,680
Speaker 1: personal level. Yeah, I don't know. I just guess when

1329
01:15:54,720 --> 01:15:57,840
Speaker 1: it comes to objective. UM, what I mean by objectively

1330
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:03,200
Speaker 1: an objective effort. By objectively making a difference, I mean

1331
01:16:04,360 --> 01:16:08,000
Speaker 1: with the equation that I laid out for you earlier.

1332
01:16:08,040 --> 01:16:11,080
Speaker 1: For example, where you walk into a supermarket and I'm

1333
01:16:11,080 --> 01:16:14,280
Speaker 1: just comparing the worst case scenario in terms of plant

1334
01:16:14,320 --> 01:16:17,439
Speaker 1: foods to the best case scenario in terms of animal

1335
01:16:17,479 --> 01:16:21,960
Speaker 1: food animal flesh, which is hunting in your case. So

1336
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:25,560
Speaker 1: let's just compare hunting to buying produce in a supermarket.

1337
01:16:25,840 --> 01:16:28,200
Speaker 1: When you walk into a supermarket and you buy rice,

1338
01:16:29,040 --> 01:16:33,080
Speaker 1: there is a very real possibility that you aren't causing

1339
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:37,200
Speaker 1: any violations to animal rights. In fact, the possibility is

1340
01:16:37,280 --> 01:16:41,320
Speaker 1: so very clearly there. It's so obviously present in that

1341
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 1: option to purchase that rice because there's no blood involved

1342
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:49,400
Speaker 1: in that rice. It's not proven that there is any

1343
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:53,240
Speaker 1: animals that are being killed in that process. So objectively speaking,

1344
01:16:53,800 --> 01:16:58,639
Speaker 1: it's very real that it's possible that that you're walking

1345
01:16:58,680 --> 01:17:00,880
Speaker 1: away with no blood in your hair when once you

1346
01:17:00,960 --> 01:17:04,160
Speaker 1: purchase that rice. Yeah, but I mean, I just that's

1347
01:17:04,160 --> 01:17:06,759
Speaker 1: an objective truth, that that could be an objective truth.

1348
01:17:06,800 --> 01:17:08,800
Speaker 1: But I'm not. The thing that I'm saying is I'm

1349
01:17:08,800 --> 01:17:11,840
Speaker 1: not willing to roll the dice. I don't. I'm not

1350
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:15,280
Speaker 1: going to roll the dice on that rice. I'm sorry.

1351
01:17:15,320 --> 01:17:16,880
Speaker 1: That didn't That wasn't meant to rhyme. I'm not going

1352
01:17:16,920 --> 01:17:20,479
Speaker 1: to roll the dice on that purchase. Um, I don't understand, Ben,

1353
01:17:20,600 --> 01:17:23,760
Speaker 1: because you aren't you taking You're taking a chance. I mean,

1354
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:25,640
Speaker 1: you're taking a chance that an animal did die. Right,

1355
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:30,120
Speaker 1: It's about lowering the violations. So you're not lowering the risk,

1356
01:17:30,200 --> 01:17:34,000
Speaker 1: you're lowering the violate the violations because when you go hunting,

1357
01:17:34,040 --> 01:17:37,519
Speaker 1: you are certainly killing. Yeah. Yeah, I mean if well,

1358
01:17:37,560 --> 01:17:39,880
Speaker 1: let's play the numbers game. Let's play the numbers game

1359
01:17:39,880 --> 01:17:42,519
Speaker 1: objectively for a moment. Like if we're saying what objective

1360
01:17:42,560 --> 01:17:46,000
Speaker 1: truth is at the same time is no animals might die.

1361
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:49,479
Speaker 1: There could be hundreds of animals that died. I don't

1362
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:52,120
Speaker 1: know that. So I'm rolling the dice to say, Hey,

1363
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:54,920
Speaker 1: you know, from your perspective, you want to argue that

1364
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:58,000
Speaker 1: there's zero and people would think from my perspective, I'm

1365
01:17:58,000 --> 01:18:00,519
Speaker 1: gonna argue that there's hundreds of deaths. Canna argue that,

1366
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:03,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, you just don't know. I know how

1367
01:18:03,080 --> 01:18:05,280
Speaker 1: many I know? If I kill one elk a year,

1368
01:18:05,800 --> 01:18:08,519
Speaker 1: one elk died to feed my family, one elk died

1369
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:11,960
Speaker 1: four or four. That's not It's not as straightforward as that, Ben,

1370
01:18:12,040 --> 01:18:15,120
Speaker 1: because that kills many animals in their lives just by

1371
01:18:15,160 --> 01:18:19,120
Speaker 1: existing walking around. They're killing bugs, They're stepping on bugs,

1372
01:18:19,640 --> 01:18:22,559
Speaker 1: eating grass, they're eating plants. They're eating bugs in the

1373
01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:24,840
Speaker 1: process of eating those plants because they ripped them out

1374
01:18:24,840 --> 01:18:28,040
Speaker 1: of the ground, you know they So you don't know

1375
01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:30,200
Speaker 1: how many deaths are left in the in the path

1376
01:18:30,320 --> 01:18:33,960
Speaker 1: of that deer before you end up killing that dear? So,

1377
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,280
Speaker 1: am I saving lives by killing the deer? Then? Much

1378
01:18:37,320 --> 01:18:40,479
Speaker 1: for the point? Am I saving lives by killing like

1379
01:18:40,560 --> 01:18:42,720
Speaker 1: future lives by killing the deer itself? Then? Or are

1380
01:18:42,760 --> 01:18:46,920
Speaker 1: you saying that there's an equation where the the deer

1381
01:18:46,960 --> 01:18:51,040
Speaker 1: I killed it's deaths are equated to me somehow lives.

1382
01:18:51,080 --> 01:18:57,280
Speaker 1: You're causing more lives to be violated. How's that with rice? Again?

1383
01:18:57,320 --> 01:19:02,439
Speaker 1: Like you're not He's saying it could be a hundred deaths?

1384
01:19:02,680 --> 01:19:08,360
Speaker 1: Is so unrealistic. It's so completely um, it's so blown

1385
01:19:08,400 --> 01:19:12,280
Speaker 1: out of proportion that it doesn't even represent reality. That's

1386
01:19:12,280 --> 01:19:15,479
Speaker 1: not really what happens. When you buy a kilo of rice,

1387
01:19:15,920 --> 01:19:19,760
Speaker 1: you know, you're maybe going to cause one death, you know,

1388
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:22,880
Speaker 1: maybe maybe two deaths if you're you know, if you're

1389
01:19:22,920 --> 01:19:26,200
Speaker 1: really trying to stretch it here conservatively, Like, and what

1390
01:19:26,200 --> 01:19:28,559
Speaker 1: what kind of death are we talking about? Bugs? Bugs are?

1391
01:19:29,400 --> 01:19:31,320
Speaker 1: This is the other thing, Like, if we're talking about

1392
01:19:31,320 --> 01:19:35,599
Speaker 1: a bug death, vegans are not stupid enough and crazy

1393
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:37,679
Speaker 1: enough to think that a bug death is the same

1394
01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:40,920
Speaker 1: thing as a cow death. You know, if we're talking

1395
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:43,880
Speaker 1: about a fly who's killed by your car as you're

1396
01:19:43,960 --> 01:19:48,599
Speaker 1: driving down the road, we're not going to be stupid

1397
01:19:48,720 --> 01:19:52,200
Speaker 1: enough and crazy enough to say that that that experience

1398
01:19:52,240 --> 01:19:54,000
Speaker 1: of that life is going to be the same as

1399
01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:57,400
Speaker 1: the experience of a cow who's on a farm who's

1400
01:19:57,439 --> 01:20:00,360
Speaker 1: being raised for the specific intention of having the heads

1401
01:20:00,360 --> 01:20:05,240
Speaker 1: hacked off and their bodies, um, their bodies chopped up

1402
01:20:05,240 --> 01:20:11,000
Speaker 1: into a thousand pieces. So yeah, like when you go hunting,

1403
01:20:11,240 --> 01:20:14,040
Speaker 1: you also drive your vehicle to the location where you

1404
01:20:14,080 --> 01:20:16,439
Speaker 1: go hunting, right, Oh, yeah, we talked about this all

1405
01:20:16,439 --> 01:20:19,240
Speaker 1: the time. Bugs on the way to your location. He

1406
01:20:19,320 --> 01:20:22,320
Speaker 1: might hit a deal on your location. Just causing one death,

1407
01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:26,599
Speaker 1: you're also causing other deaths on the way to and fro. Yeah,

1408
01:20:26,600 --> 01:20:29,240
Speaker 1: I mean this is kind of the the choice goes

1409
01:20:29,240 --> 01:20:30,639
Speaker 1: back to the choice thing. It's kind of the point

1410
01:20:30,640 --> 01:20:33,520
Speaker 1: that I'm making here is that I want to choose.

1411
01:20:34,040 --> 01:20:36,440
Speaker 1: I want to have the choice. I want to say

1412
01:20:37,000 --> 01:20:39,519
Speaker 1: one ELK dies or zero UK dies. But that's my choice.

1413
01:20:39,520 --> 01:20:41,599
Speaker 1: I want to say I'm going to kill the voles

1414
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:44,080
Speaker 1: in my backyard or I'm not. I want to have

1415
01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:46,120
Speaker 1: the choice. I want to farm out that choice to

1416
01:20:46,200 --> 01:20:48,320
Speaker 1: someone else. Um, I don't want to farm out the

1417
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:50,599
Speaker 1: ethics am I eating to some person I've never met.

1418
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:53,320
Speaker 1: I don't want to allow. I don't want to allow. Yeah,

1419
01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:55,720
Speaker 1: I don't want to allow a proxy rice farmer who

1420
01:20:55,760 --> 01:20:58,479
Speaker 1: I've never met, to kill zero kill, one kill, to

1421
01:20:58,680 --> 01:21:00,599
Speaker 1: kill a hundred. I don't know what that person's doing.

1422
01:21:01,200 --> 01:21:03,240
Speaker 1: And so that this is just part of how I

1423
01:21:03,280 --> 01:21:06,280
Speaker 1: get to hunting. This is part of the reasoning how

1424
01:21:06,320 --> 01:21:08,679
Speaker 1: I get you have You're coming from a from an

1425
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:11,920
Speaker 1: integrity point of view on this, And to you then

1426
01:21:12,040 --> 01:21:16,080
Speaker 1: is if if you want to follow through with that integrity,

1427
01:21:16,120 --> 01:21:21,519
Speaker 1: why don't you just make it a focused effort on

1428
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:27,040
Speaker 1: choosing to grow planned foods and if you take some

1429
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:30,000
Speaker 1: losses here and there, then so be it. But that's

1430
01:21:30,040 --> 01:21:34,160
Speaker 1: the choice you're making to avoid harming animals altogether. Yeah,

1431
01:21:34,160 --> 01:21:35,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I just this is a conversation I had

1432
01:21:36,000 --> 01:21:37,960
Speaker 1: with a guy that I really respect by the name

1433
01:21:37,960 --> 01:21:41,080
Speaker 1: of Dr Robert C. Jones. He's a vegan philosopher. He

1434
01:21:41,160 --> 01:21:43,519
Speaker 1: was at Chico State. I think he's teaching out of

1435
01:21:43,560 --> 01:21:46,880
Speaker 1: Hollywood now. But anyway, he opposed it like a circle,

1436
01:21:47,160 --> 01:21:50,280
Speaker 1: like there's this circle where all this death is happening.

1437
01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:52,439
Speaker 1: If you could choose to be in the circle where

1438
01:21:52,439 --> 01:21:55,360
Speaker 1: the death is happening or step out of it, would

1439
01:21:55,400 --> 01:21:58,400
Speaker 1: what would you choose? And I just said, look, I

1440
01:21:58,439 --> 01:22:00,840
Speaker 1: feel as though I have a look, you know, and

1441
01:22:00,880 --> 01:22:03,920
Speaker 1: I'll continue to examine my own impact on the world,

1442
01:22:03,920 --> 01:22:08,400
Speaker 1: in my own human consumption. My feeling is no matter

1443
01:22:08,439 --> 01:22:11,240
Speaker 1: what I do, I'm coming I'm forced against this idea

1444
01:22:11,800 --> 01:22:15,439
Speaker 1: that I'm a part of nature. I cause death. So

1445
01:22:15,479 --> 01:22:18,120
Speaker 1: then I want to take that death upon myself where

1446
01:22:18,160 --> 01:22:21,680
Speaker 1: it where it's weight, understand what it means. And that's

1447
01:22:21,920 --> 01:22:24,880
Speaker 1: the term we talked about, that tragic knowledge, this knowledge

1448
01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:27,680
Speaker 1: of what death really looks like. Rather than say I'm

1449
01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:30,240
Speaker 1: not going to approach death. I don't want to see it.

1450
01:22:30,320 --> 01:22:34,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to intentionally cause it. I'm saying, I

1451
01:22:34,120 --> 01:22:36,640
Speaker 1: know I'm causing it by just being a human, So

1452
01:22:36,720 --> 01:22:38,479
Speaker 1: I want to I want to take a step forward

1453
01:22:38,520 --> 01:22:45,360
Speaker 1: towards death. Understand it. They're both saying that we code

1454
01:22:45,360 --> 01:22:49,360
Speaker 1: we we both cause some death by being human. I

1455
01:22:49,360 --> 01:22:51,479
Speaker 1: think where we and I've been through this kind of before,

1456
01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:53,840
Speaker 1: so I know where we diverge, where we diverge, as

1457
01:22:53,880 --> 01:22:57,240
Speaker 1: you're saying, I know I cause death. I want to

1458
01:22:57,240 --> 01:23:00,400
Speaker 1: do everything I possibly can to never intentionally cause death,

1459
01:23:00,439 --> 01:23:02,160
Speaker 1: to never like eat a hamburger and to know that

1460
01:23:02,160 --> 01:23:04,599
Speaker 1: there's going to be a dead thing in my mouth,

1461
01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:08,720
Speaker 1: or to to do anything that's intentional. I've looked at

1462
01:23:08,760 --> 01:23:11,080
Speaker 1: this idea in my own life, and again I'm not

1463
01:23:11,160 --> 01:23:13,840
Speaker 1: I'm not preaching that everyone should go hunting or or

1464
01:23:13,960 --> 01:23:17,000
Speaker 1: preaching that this is the way for everyone. All I'm

1465
01:23:17,000 --> 01:23:18,840
Speaker 1: saying is I've looked at that in my own life,

1466
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:22,800
Speaker 1: and I feel like this personal application of you know,

1467
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:26,680
Speaker 1: my my own food choice is my own choices about impact,

1468
01:23:27,040 --> 01:23:28,639
Speaker 1: you know, And then again, my own choice is about

1469
01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:31,600
Speaker 1: what comes into my home in terms of food is

1470
01:23:32,080 --> 01:23:35,439
Speaker 1: incrementally making me better at being a human and better

1471
01:23:35,479 --> 01:23:39,240
Speaker 1: than understanding this ecosystems and better understanding nature. Hunting is

1472
01:23:39,280 --> 01:23:42,000
Speaker 1: a huge part of that for me, Um, but it's

1473
01:23:42,040 --> 01:23:44,400
Speaker 1: allowed me to bring in other things. I'm you know,

1474
01:23:44,439 --> 01:23:46,600
Speaker 1: and I'm sure you would admit. We are all imperfect

1475
01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:48,759
Speaker 1: in the way that we try to move around this world,

1476
01:23:49,479 --> 01:23:51,439
Speaker 1: and so there's this idea that we're always growing, we're

1477
01:23:51,479 --> 01:23:54,000
Speaker 1: always learning more, you know, We've I've had people in

1478
01:23:54,120 --> 01:23:57,160
Speaker 1: here talking about lab based meat, talking about plant based meat,

1479
01:23:58,160 --> 01:24:01,160
Speaker 1: and these ideas of these replacements, and so I want

1480
01:24:01,200 --> 01:24:03,840
Speaker 1: to explore those things as well. And I'm not so

1481
01:24:03,880 --> 01:24:06,240
Speaker 1: stupid as I'm gonna say like hunting will always be here,

1482
01:24:06,240 --> 01:24:09,160
Speaker 1: and it won't. They'll never be an idea better than hunting.

1483
01:24:09,200 --> 01:24:12,040
Speaker 1: That's not true. Um. What I'm saying is personally, I've

1484
01:24:12,160 --> 01:24:14,759
Speaker 1: looked at this and I feel for my own life,

1485
01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:18,519
Speaker 1: this is a way for me to understand death, not

1486
01:24:18,680 --> 01:24:21,519
Speaker 1: cause as much of it. And also even if I

1487
01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:25,200
Speaker 1: even if I don't know the exact number to say,

1488
01:24:25,479 --> 01:24:29,880
Speaker 1: I have this proximity to death that is personal and

1489
01:24:29,920 --> 01:24:32,640
Speaker 1: it's affecting me and Therefore, I you know, I have

1490
01:24:32,680 --> 01:24:34,880
Speaker 1: respect for these creatures because I know what they are

1491
01:24:34,920 --> 01:24:37,400
Speaker 1: and I know what I am. Uh, you know, and

1492
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:40,519
Speaker 1: that's that's just my rationale. And and I think I

1493
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:44,639
Speaker 1: understand your rationale as well. I get where you're coming from. Um,

1494
01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:46,280
Speaker 1: where we disagree is where I just said, I don't

1495
01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:48,599
Speaker 1: know that that's a reality for me. I don't know

1496
01:24:48,640 --> 01:24:50,000
Speaker 1: that I can look at the world and say, like,

1497
01:24:50,040 --> 01:24:54,360
Speaker 1: my intentions matter more than the actual death there. Well,

1498
01:24:54,520 --> 01:24:56,599
Speaker 1: you can't actually say that you know how many actual

1499
01:24:56,640 --> 01:25:00,880
Speaker 1: deaths are caused in my lifestyle, for example, versus your No,

1500
01:25:00,920 --> 01:25:02,920
Speaker 1: I wouldn't I wouldn't put I wouldn't play a numbers

1501
01:25:02,960 --> 01:25:06,640
Speaker 1: game at all. Sure, that's my point. The speculation is

1502
01:25:06,640 --> 01:25:10,680
Speaker 1: the thing that I struggle with, um. And so so

1503
01:25:10,720 --> 01:25:14,800
Speaker 1: that's why this proximity thing, well, I'm saying most of this,

1504
01:25:14,960 --> 01:25:17,960
Speaker 1: most of these conversations we have about this, this is

1505
01:25:18,120 --> 01:25:20,920
Speaker 1: speculation anyway. Zero deaths for the rice or a hunter death,

1506
01:25:20,960 --> 01:25:24,479
Speaker 1: these are all speculations. Um. I've never I can't remember

1507
01:25:24,520 --> 01:25:27,080
Speaker 1: ever being I've been on many farms, never a rice

1508
01:25:27,120 --> 01:25:29,920
Speaker 1: farm particularly, And so my point is I just don't know,

1509
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:32,240
Speaker 1: But I do know with hunting I do know that

1510
01:25:32,479 --> 01:25:34,439
Speaker 1: there's an elk herd that lives near my house. If

1511
01:25:34,479 --> 01:25:36,720
Speaker 1: I take one a year, that that elk herd can

1512
01:25:36,800 --> 01:25:39,400
Speaker 1: remain remain on the landscape. I'm never going to take

1513
01:25:39,400 --> 01:25:41,760
Speaker 1: more than I need, and that when I watched the

1514
01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:45,080
Speaker 1: death go from an animal's eyes, I don't know that

1515
01:25:45,120 --> 01:25:48,200
Speaker 1: I say I'm a murderer, but I and definitely aware

1516
01:25:48,240 --> 01:25:50,920
Speaker 1: of what's going on. And I'm not excusing it. I'm

1517
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:54,160
Speaker 1: not saying that it's something that's not I'm saying this

1518
01:25:54,240 --> 01:25:58,559
Speaker 1: is tragic, but our humanity is is evenly so tragic.

1519
01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:01,000
Speaker 1: Um And so I'm trying to deal with that maybe

1520
01:26:01,000 --> 01:26:02,240
Speaker 1: in the same way you're trying to deal with it,

1521
01:26:02,280 --> 01:26:05,800
Speaker 1: just in the like maybe a polar opposite endgame that

1522
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:08,599
Speaker 1: Maga sense I have to pull you up there, Ben,

1523
01:26:08,720 --> 01:26:11,599
Speaker 1: because you just said evenly more tragic. You don't know

1524
01:26:11,680 --> 01:26:14,640
Speaker 1: that we just established that it's not it's it's speculation.

1525
01:26:15,479 --> 01:26:19,040
Speaker 1: You don't know if my lifestyle is causing the same

1526
01:26:19,080 --> 01:26:23,200
Speaker 1: amount of animal violations as your lifestyle. Yeah, I'm not.

1527
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:25,559
Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm like I said, I like to have

1528
01:26:25,600 --> 01:26:28,799
Speaker 1: this idea that like I know personally what what's happening.

1529
01:26:28,800 --> 01:26:31,080
Speaker 1: I know the pushes and pools, I know the options.

1530
01:26:31,120 --> 01:26:34,720
Speaker 1: I know. I know kind of the equation from from

1531
01:26:34,800 --> 01:26:36,760
Speaker 1: my for a lot of my eating, and some of

1532
01:26:36,800 --> 01:26:38,680
Speaker 1: it I don't. I still eat cereal, and you know,

1533
01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:41,280
Speaker 1: you you could see me, you know, eating a yogurt

1534
01:26:41,400 --> 01:26:44,200
Speaker 1: or drinking a soda or I'm not jeez, I'm not

1535
01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:48,240
Speaker 1: above any of that stuff. But but there's this idea

1536
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:53,280
Speaker 1: that you know, hunting, gardening, other things make make this

1537
01:26:53,520 --> 01:26:56,599
Speaker 1: equation visible to me. I can see it, I can

1538
01:26:56,640 --> 01:26:58,760
Speaker 1: look at it. I can make my own choices as

1539
01:26:58,880 --> 01:27:03,040
Speaker 1: as as do I make that kill, do I not? Um?

1540
01:27:03,080 --> 01:27:05,800
Speaker 1: Do I cause that death? Or do I alleviate that death?

1541
01:27:05,800 --> 01:27:08,439
Speaker 1: In this way? At least I can make the choice.

1542
01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:10,840
Speaker 1: If you buy something from the grocery store, you have

1543
01:27:10,880 --> 01:27:14,080
Speaker 1: no choice but to buy that. And unless you've already

1544
01:27:14,120 --> 01:27:16,599
Speaker 1: done all the research on its ill it's exact production,

1545
01:27:17,120 --> 01:27:19,400
Speaker 1: there's a bit of a proxy going on there with

1546
01:27:19,400 --> 01:27:22,360
Speaker 1: with who's delivering that food? Do you? And so I'm

1547
01:27:22,600 --> 01:27:26,760
Speaker 1: confused because you can you do have You do have

1548
01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:29,559
Speaker 1: many options. You can grow your own produce. For example,

1549
01:27:29,920 --> 01:27:32,280
Speaker 1: you said you have an interest in doing that. Oh yeah,

1550
01:27:32,360 --> 01:27:36,280
Speaker 1: absolutely possible option for you. It's still a viable option.

1551
01:27:37,160 --> 01:27:39,559
Speaker 1: It's just it has some challenges, just like with anything.

1552
01:27:39,600 --> 01:27:42,240
Speaker 1: I guess sure, I mean, like I said, the channel.

1553
01:27:42,280 --> 01:27:45,519
Speaker 1: If if I guess, here's where we can maybe maybe

1554
01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:48,880
Speaker 1: this makes more sense. If my if I'm I'm if

1555
01:27:48,960 --> 01:27:53,559
Speaker 1: I am choosing to stop hunting to stop the violation

1556
01:27:53,640 --> 01:27:56,679
Speaker 1: of an animal to death. If I'm choosing to stop

1557
01:27:56,760 --> 01:27:59,320
Speaker 1: the death of that animal allowing that elk to live

1558
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:02,840
Speaker 1: at this, then I have to return to Okay, how

1559
01:28:02,880 --> 01:28:06,679
Speaker 1: do I replace that that food, that that food source

1560
01:28:06,760 --> 01:28:08,880
Speaker 1: and the percentage of my diet. Okay, Let's say I

1561
01:28:09,160 --> 01:28:11,360
Speaker 1: turned to a grocery store. I think that's a worse

1562
01:28:11,439 --> 01:28:14,439
Speaker 1: option than killing that elk um. Let's say I turned

1563
01:28:14,439 --> 01:28:17,120
Speaker 1: to my backyard, which I've done in the past. Let'll

1564
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:19,439
Speaker 1: say I'm I'm a phorn of the death of yelok,

1565
01:28:19,479 --> 01:28:22,200
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna turn to my backyard. I find still

1566
01:28:22,439 --> 01:28:25,439
Speaker 1: I'm in the throes of of nature. There, I'm still

1567
01:28:25,680 --> 01:28:28,519
Speaker 1: asking myself, is there a way for me not to

1568
01:28:28,640 --> 01:28:32,280
Speaker 1: have to kill these animals that are gonna eat it

1569
01:28:32,479 --> 01:28:35,599
Speaker 1: or or have this conflict with nature? There? So I'm

1570
01:28:35,640 --> 01:28:39,560
Speaker 1: looking at the options I have and saying, Okay, this

1571
01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:42,839
Speaker 1: the hunting feels the most right to me. It feels

1572
01:28:42,880 --> 01:28:46,080
Speaker 1: like something where I'm I have an active choice in

1573
01:28:46,160 --> 01:28:48,400
Speaker 1: what I'm doing, rather than just relying on a proxy

1574
01:28:48,439 --> 01:28:52,080
Speaker 1: farmer somewhere whom I never met. So that's just that's

1575
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:57,000
Speaker 1: my argument. I think, you know, for me personally, it's

1576
01:28:57,000 --> 01:28:59,840
Speaker 1: always changing, it's always evolving. It doesn't take away my

1577
01:29:00,000 --> 01:29:02,640
Speaker 1: respect for animals or my respect for your position that

1578
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:04,519
Speaker 1: you know, let's try not to harm them if you

1579
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:08,959
Speaker 1: don't have to. Well, I guess that's where I'm confused,

1580
01:29:09,040 --> 01:29:11,599
Speaker 1: because like it's it's just an objective fact that if

1581
01:29:11,640 --> 01:29:14,680
Speaker 1: you buy beans to make up your calories instead of

1582
01:29:14,720 --> 01:29:19,800
Speaker 1: animal flesh to replace animal flesh, that it would be

1583
01:29:19,960 --> 01:29:22,479
Speaker 1: very rare that you would cause the same amount of

1584
01:29:22,560 --> 01:29:26,280
Speaker 1: animal violations with a kilo or I guess you go

1585
01:29:26,400 --> 01:29:30,479
Speaker 1: buy pounds in America, you know, two pounds of beans.

1586
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:35,479
Speaker 1: I can guarantee you that it would be extremely rare

1587
01:29:35,920 --> 01:29:38,280
Speaker 1: that you would cause the same amount of violations as

1588
01:29:38,320 --> 01:29:42,920
Speaker 1: you're going out and intentionally killing a deal. I'd have

1589
01:29:43,040 --> 01:29:45,880
Speaker 1: to see some kind of some fact or some study

1590
01:29:46,040 --> 01:29:47,960
Speaker 1: or some some farmer that can call in and tell

1591
01:29:48,040 --> 01:29:51,200
Speaker 1: me that, because that's just again I'll say again, you're

1592
01:29:51,240 --> 01:29:54,760
Speaker 1: making an assumption. You don't know unless unless there's like

1593
01:29:54,840 --> 01:29:57,200
Speaker 1: a unless there's like a number on the front of

1594
01:29:57,240 --> 01:29:59,680
Speaker 1: that bean package that says zero animals are kiling in

1595
01:29:59,720 --> 01:30:02,439
Speaker 1: the arm this you have no idea. And on this

1596
01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:04,400
Speaker 1: and on the flip side, you don't know if it's

1597
01:30:04,439 --> 01:30:10,000
Speaker 1: got ten deaths behind it either. So exactly we're both speculating. However,

1598
01:30:10,120 --> 01:30:13,439
Speaker 1: based on my education on this subject, you know, I've

1599
01:30:13,479 --> 01:30:16,400
Speaker 1: been doing this for over four years now. I've talked

1600
01:30:16,439 --> 01:30:18,719
Speaker 1: to a lot of people about this subject. I've worked

1601
01:30:18,760 --> 01:30:21,640
Speaker 1: with the best aim orious activists in the world, you know,

1602
01:30:22,439 --> 01:30:27,200
Speaker 1: and our education on this subject is that it's objectively

1603
01:30:27,320 --> 01:30:32,320
Speaker 1: clear to us that with farming rice or beans, or

1604
01:30:32,439 --> 01:30:34,799
Speaker 1: just like the generic products that exists on the shelf,

1605
01:30:35,680 --> 01:30:39,800
Speaker 1: there aren't as many animal violations as being spoken about

1606
01:30:40,360 --> 01:30:44,439
Speaker 1: by people like hunters who make this argument that's just

1607
01:30:44,560 --> 01:30:49,040
Speaker 1: not how agriculture is actually carried out. I mean, I

1608
01:30:49,280 --> 01:30:51,840
Speaker 1: have to see, I have to see some data keeps

1609
01:30:51,880 --> 01:30:55,680
Speaker 1: getting brought up. But when you look at agriculture and

1610
01:30:55,960 --> 01:31:00,679
Speaker 1: and the data that goes into combine harvesting, the amount

1611
01:31:00,720 --> 01:31:04,559
Speaker 1: of animal deaths that are caused by those machines pales

1612
01:31:04,600 --> 01:31:07,360
Speaker 1: in comparison to the story that's actually being told to vegans.

1613
01:31:08,120 --> 01:31:12,439
Speaker 1: So no, that's not just an assumption on my part. However,

1614
01:31:12,600 --> 01:31:14,559
Speaker 1: there is an assumption on your part when you say

1615
01:31:14,640 --> 01:31:16,840
Speaker 1: that it causes the same amount or it's just a risk,

1616
01:31:16,920 --> 01:31:19,880
Speaker 1: and you could be causing more. You could be causing

1617
01:31:19,960 --> 01:31:23,840
Speaker 1: more harm by buying beans, for example, from a supermarket,

1618
01:31:23,880 --> 01:31:27,360
Speaker 1: and that's just objectively not true. Yeah, I mean I think,

1619
01:31:27,439 --> 01:31:28,920
Speaker 1: I mean, you could say that, but you have to

1620
01:31:29,000 --> 01:31:33,400
Speaker 1: back that up and causing the same um at best.

1621
01:31:33,520 --> 01:31:36,240
Speaker 1: And this is me being conservative here. You would be

1622
01:31:36,280 --> 01:31:41,120
Speaker 1: causing the same amount of harm by by buying that beat,

1623
01:31:41,200 --> 01:31:44,360
Speaker 1: those beans or that rice, and that isn't even realistic

1624
01:31:44,439 --> 01:31:46,800
Speaker 1: for me to say that. I'm trying to be charitable

1625
01:31:46,880 --> 01:31:50,880
Speaker 1: by saying this. Actually conservative isn't even the right word. Yeah,

1626
01:31:50,920 --> 01:31:53,120
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a couple of things. If you causing

1627
01:31:53,240 --> 01:31:56,519
Speaker 1: no violations to animals is very much possible, It's very

1628
01:31:56,600 --> 01:32:01,320
Speaker 1: much real It's that that is very clear. I have

1629
01:32:01,400 --> 01:32:03,760
Speaker 1: to see something that I'd have to see something where

1630
01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:06,719
Speaker 1: there's you know, there's a bunch of data from farms

1631
01:32:07,320 --> 01:32:10,800
Speaker 1: that are looking at the you know, net zero cost

1632
01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:14,320
Speaker 1: of animal death versus the production of monoculture. You know,

1633
01:32:14,800 --> 01:32:18,519
Speaker 1: plants essentially, what kind of habitat is being lost when

1634
01:32:18,560 --> 01:32:22,280
Speaker 1: you're planning. You know, nature needs biodiversity and these landscapes,

1635
01:32:22,520 --> 01:32:27,680
Speaker 1: even landscapes that are arible that we can plant, need biodiversity. Um. Monoculture.

1636
01:32:27,800 --> 01:32:31,439
Speaker 1: We have you know, five vegetable products that we plant

1637
01:32:31,560 --> 01:32:35,160
Speaker 1: on most of our world. Um, we can't have this monoculture.

1638
01:32:35,240 --> 01:32:38,120
Speaker 1: We have to have this biodiversity for everything from pollinators

1639
01:32:38,200 --> 01:32:41,840
Speaker 1: to butterflies, to be you know, to deer. But again

1640
01:32:41,880 --> 01:32:44,679
Speaker 1: I'm confused because you said you also eat these products,

1641
01:32:45,479 --> 01:32:48,639
Speaker 1: so you're not only eating dea flesh. No, I'm eating

1642
01:32:48,720 --> 01:32:51,559
Speaker 1: like I would say, if if if an optimal diet

1643
01:32:51,640 --> 01:32:55,040
Speaker 1: for me would all would all include proximity to my food.

1644
01:32:55,280 --> 01:32:57,880
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying I'm perfect, and

1645
01:32:57,960 --> 01:33:00,479
Speaker 1: I don't. I've never had a French fry. I've never

1646
01:33:00,600 --> 01:33:03,479
Speaker 1: had something that wouldn't that I know exactly where it

1647
01:33:03,520 --> 01:33:05,360
Speaker 1: came from. But I'm saying the optimal diet. The thing

1648
01:33:05,439 --> 01:33:09,120
Speaker 1: that hunting and gardening and other things UM give me

1649
01:33:09,320 --> 01:33:11,760
Speaker 1: is is this idea that I want that proximity. I

1650
01:33:11,840 --> 01:33:14,680
Speaker 1: seek it out. I try to try to find it

1651
01:33:14,720 --> 01:33:16,960
Speaker 1: where I can and hunting and gardening and other things

1652
01:33:17,000 --> 01:33:20,720
Speaker 1: are are part of that for my my own life. Um.

1653
01:33:21,080 --> 01:33:23,080
Speaker 1: And so I'm not, you know, not necessarily saying any

1654
01:33:23,160 --> 01:33:25,679
Speaker 1: of that, but I mean, look, I mean, I I'm

1655
01:33:25,720 --> 01:33:31,240
Speaker 1: out there. I see these big monoculture crop fields. Um.

1656
01:33:32,040 --> 01:33:35,360
Speaker 1: Nature abhors that vacuum. It doesn't want that vacuum. That

1657
01:33:35,520 --> 01:33:38,880
Speaker 1: that is the the elimination of habitat for many species.

1658
01:33:39,640 --> 01:33:41,840
Speaker 1: And that's something we've done to the land. That's something

1659
01:33:41,920 --> 01:33:44,960
Speaker 1: we've done since we invented agriculture from twelve thousand years ago.

1660
01:33:45,360 --> 01:33:50,200
Speaker 1: And so I just again I'm not willing to and

1661
01:33:50,320 --> 01:33:52,720
Speaker 1: if somebody could, if you could show me some objective

1662
01:33:52,840 --> 01:33:56,799
Speaker 1: data that says that you know, this, this type of plant,

1663
01:33:56,960 --> 01:34:01,880
Speaker 1: this type of production processes a limits death to zero,

1664
01:34:02,040 --> 01:34:05,040
Speaker 1: one to whatever however that might be classified, I'd read it,

1665
01:34:05,080 --> 01:34:07,720
Speaker 1: I'd look at it. And ultimately, if if there was

1666
01:34:07,760 --> 01:34:12,360
Speaker 1: a plant and a farming practice that guaranteed zero deaths, boy,

1667
01:34:12,400 --> 01:34:14,600
Speaker 1: I'd be hard pressed not to eat whatever that was.

1668
01:34:14,880 --> 01:34:17,120
Speaker 1: But I just I've never seen it or heard of it.

1669
01:34:17,560 --> 01:34:19,519
Speaker 1: And if that's objectively true, I'd love to see it,

1670
01:34:19,600 --> 01:34:21,920
Speaker 1: because I just never I've never come across it. And

1671
01:34:22,000 --> 01:34:26,519
Speaker 1: all my talks about regenerative agriculture and responsible farming and

1672
01:34:27,000 --> 01:34:31,640
Speaker 1: bio diversity and healthy ecosystems and trophic cascade and predation

1673
01:34:31,920 --> 01:34:36,080
Speaker 1: and cohabitation. Um, I've never run into what you just said,

1674
01:34:36,600 --> 01:34:38,160
Speaker 1: and and so I, like I said, I'd love to

1675
01:34:38,280 --> 01:34:40,160
Speaker 1: learn more about it. I just have never heard that,

1676
01:34:40,439 --> 01:34:46,120
Speaker 1: and I don't know it to be true. Yeah. Well again,

1677
01:34:46,160 --> 01:34:50,240
Speaker 1: I'm confused because you are also consuming the products of

1678
01:34:51,200 --> 01:35:00,240
Speaker 1: these farming practices as well as right. What's that sounds

1679
01:35:00,280 --> 01:35:02,519
Speaker 1: to me like you're trying to choose one or the other.

1680
01:35:02,880 --> 01:35:04,760
Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm not trying to I just said that

1681
01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:07,800
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get better at everything that I do.

1682
01:35:08,280 --> 01:35:12,479
Speaker 1: Gardening certainly gives me proximity to vegetables. I don't have

1683
01:35:12,560 --> 01:35:14,880
Speaker 1: a rice field in my backyard. I just don't. I

1684
01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:18,519
Speaker 1: never will. Um so, and I can't the h O

1685
01:35:18,600 --> 01:35:20,200
Speaker 1: A would get kissed if I had a rice field

1686
01:35:20,240 --> 01:35:23,479
Speaker 1: my backyard is. I guess what would help is you

1687
01:35:23,680 --> 01:35:27,560
Speaker 1: visiting a russ field and how they and witnessing the

1688
01:35:27,800 --> 01:35:30,200
Speaker 1: entire process. Sure, I mean listen, like I said, if

1689
01:35:30,280 --> 01:35:33,040
Speaker 1: if if this is I I genuinely this isn't This

1690
01:35:33,360 --> 01:35:35,400
Speaker 1: isn't true. Because I've been to these places, I've seen it.

1691
01:35:35,479 --> 01:35:39,400
Speaker 1: I've talked to many farmers, many of the generative agriculture farmers,

1692
01:35:39,520 --> 01:35:41,760
Speaker 1: who are trying to figure this all out on a

1693
01:35:41,880 --> 01:35:46,400
Speaker 1: natural landscape, how they can maximize that landscape and make

1694
01:35:46,439 --> 01:35:49,200
Speaker 1: it a wildlife paradise while also getting the food that

1695
01:35:49,240 --> 01:35:52,080
Speaker 1: they need from that, you know, And that's a complicated

1696
01:35:52,160 --> 01:35:56,680
Speaker 1: process and involves all kinds of um intrusions on wildlife

1697
01:35:56,920 --> 01:36:00,879
Speaker 1: and and the removal of their habitat um. Every action

1698
01:36:01,120 --> 01:36:04,559
Speaker 1: in the natural world has this has a reaction. Yeah,

1699
01:36:04,720 --> 01:36:06,960
Speaker 1: everything we do as human beings. And that's why I'm

1700
01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:10,040
Speaker 1: saying that the simple act of being vegan and just

1701
01:36:10,280 --> 01:36:14,040
Speaker 1: choosing to intentionally not violate the rights of animals, it

1702
01:36:14,120 --> 01:36:16,800
Speaker 1: seems like the most logical. Yeah, I mean, listen, man,

1703
01:36:16,840 --> 01:36:21,120
Speaker 1: I'm yeah, I'm I'm not. I'm not here to say like, wow,

1704
01:36:21,200 --> 01:36:23,679
Speaker 1: you're crazy. That sounds pretty logical. I mean, it sounds

1705
01:36:23,720 --> 01:36:27,360
Speaker 1: like something that when we're both kind of having the

1706
01:36:27,439 --> 01:36:29,920
Speaker 1: same calculus here and and now I think people probably

1707
01:36:29,960 --> 01:36:32,040
Speaker 1: gonna get frustrated with here and let's go round and round.

1708
01:36:32,280 --> 01:36:35,080
Speaker 1: But I mean, I do I do believe, and I've

1709
01:36:35,080 --> 01:36:38,000
Speaker 1: said this to other folks um, I do believe we're

1710
01:36:38,080 --> 01:36:40,800
Speaker 1: kind of using the same calculus, but we're landing on

1711
01:36:40,880 --> 01:36:44,360
Speaker 1: the different answers here. My calculus is very much yours.

1712
01:36:44,520 --> 01:36:48,640
Speaker 1: It's human impact is you know, no matter how you

1713
01:36:48,680 --> 01:36:51,200
Speaker 1: look at it, we do consume the world around us,

1714
01:36:51,360 --> 01:36:54,320
Speaker 1: which net net gives us a negative impact on lots

1715
01:36:54,360 --> 01:36:57,400
Speaker 1: of things because we consume the world around us, um.

1716
01:36:57,560 --> 01:37:01,800
Speaker 1: And so we we as humans as we progress through society,

1717
01:37:01,880 --> 01:37:04,759
Speaker 1: as we as we grow as people, as we innovate,

1718
01:37:06,040 --> 01:37:09,519
Speaker 1: you know, as as fellow citizens, where it's all on

1719
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:11,600
Speaker 1: us to step back and be like, what can I

1720
01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:16,160
Speaker 1: do to make sure I understand my impact on the world.

1721
01:37:17,200 --> 01:37:19,479
Speaker 1: And that's a very personal journey. I think for most

1722
01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:23,120
Speaker 1: hunters that's a very personal journey. I'm sure for most

1723
01:37:23,160 --> 01:37:26,200
Speaker 1: vegans that's a very personal journey. It's a personal journey,

1724
01:37:26,479 --> 01:37:31,400
Speaker 1: but it's not a personal choice when your choice involves victims.

1725
01:37:32,560 --> 01:37:36,439
Speaker 1: So like, if you don't have to choose between eating, um,

1726
01:37:37,200 --> 01:37:40,400
Speaker 1: some risal beings from the supermarket or hunting an elk,

1727
01:37:41,960 --> 01:37:48,759
Speaker 1: where in the second option you are intentionally certainly choosing

1728
01:37:49,640 --> 01:37:54,800
Speaker 1: to kill an animal, then your personal choice is not

1729
01:37:54,960 --> 01:37:57,759
Speaker 1: just a personal choice that involves someone else, and therefore

1730
01:37:58,000 --> 01:38:02,320
Speaker 1: it's no longer personal and sure, I mean the personal

1731
01:38:02,439 --> 01:38:06,040
Speaker 1: choice to eat that you're making a personal choice while unintentional,

1732
01:38:06,720 --> 01:38:08,439
Speaker 1: you're making a choice to eat that food from the

1733
01:38:08,479 --> 01:38:12,040
Speaker 1: grocery store rather than again have your own rice farm

1734
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:15,360
Speaker 1: or do whatever. I mean again, that this goes back to,

1735
01:38:16,080 --> 01:38:19,360
Speaker 1: you know, in struggling economies and places where we don't

1736
01:38:19,400 --> 01:38:22,000
Speaker 1: have this kind of first world luxurious debate that we're having,

1737
01:38:22,120 --> 01:38:25,200
Speaker 1: people are hungry and they do what they can to survive. UM,

1738
01:38:26,200 --> 01:38:28,679
Speaker 1: and so there's there's that I don't know that that's

1739
01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:32,640
Speaker 1: a German while we're talking about you be sure and

1740
01:38:32,720 --> 01:38:37,559
Speaker 1: most people, yeah, I think absolutely, Yeah, I mean in um,

1741
01:38:38,400 --> 01:38:42,400
Speaker 1: in other countries, second and third world countries, and yeah,

1742
01:38:42,479 --> 01:38:47,960
Speaker 1: in your case, you know, yeah that that doesn't really

1743
01:38:48,120 --> 01:38:50,680
Speaker 1: I imagine, and I imagine for you like if I'm

1744
01:38:50,720 --> 01:38:52,000
Speaker 1: going to try to get you on a got your

1745
01:38:52,080 --> 01:38:54,120
Speaker 1: question and be like, hey man, if you were starving,

1746
01:38:54,160 --> 01:38:56,519
Speaker 1: would you eat a deer? Like I just I'm not

1747
01:38:56,560 --> 01:38:59,599
Speaker 1: gonna that's not something that I think is getting anybody anywhere.

1748
01:38:59,760 --> 01:39:02,880
Speaker 1: And certainly I think hopefully what people can hear in

1749
01:39:03,120 --> 01:39:05,200
Speaker 1: us is that there's some semantics going on here. We're

1750
01:39:05,280 --> 01:39:09,360
Speaker 1: kind of dancing around these issues. Um, I I just believe.

1751
01:39:09,360 --> 01:39:11,360
Speaker 1: I don't know if you can disagree with this. You know,

1752
01:39:11,760 --> 01:39:13,479
Speaker 1: you might or might not, But I, like I said,

1753
01:39:13,520 --> 01:39:16,479
Speaker 1: I think there's a similar calculus going on here and

1754
01:39:16,560 --> 01:39:19,840
Speaker 1: if we're all able to come to this idea, and

1755
01:39:20,240 --> 01:39:23,679
Speaker 1: I think that this ideologically comes to this discussion about

1756
01:39:23,720 --> 01:39:28,000
Speaker 1: death and the intentionality as you say, and like need

1757
01:39:28,280 --> 01:39:32,439
Speaker 1: needless death or maybe needful death, if that's a good

1758
01:39:32,479 --> 01:39:34,720
Speaker 1: way to say it. But I do, I do think

1759
01:39:34,800 --> 01:39:37,400
Speaker 1: that there is there's more to be had here than

1760
01:39:37,520 --> 01:39:41,439
Speaker 1: than maybe meets the eye. And my only point to

1761
01:39:41,479 --> 01:39:43,160
Speaker 1: have this conversation is not just tell you, hey, let's

1762
01:39:43,200 --> 01:39:46,280
Speaker 1: go hunting tomorrow. Um what is to say, like it's

1763
01:39:46,320 --> 01:39:49,320
Speaker 1: say exactly that to you is I think there is

1764
01:39:49,680 --> 01:39:52,479
Speaker 1: some some ways to explore the nuance here where we

1765
01:39:52,560 --> 01:39:55,360
Speaker 1: can come we can learn something from each other and

1766
01:39:55,840 --> 01:39:59,120
Speaker 1: express appreciation for this idea that our impact on the

1767
01:39:59,160 --> 01:40:03,120
Speaker 1: world is it's not finite. It does have lots of

1768
01:40:03,200 --> 01:40:05,439
Speaker 1: fissures and cracks through our world the things that we do.

1769
01:40:05,680 --> 01:40:08,160
Speaker 1: So that's that's just where I stand on And I objectively,

1770
01:40:09,200 --> 01:40:13,160
Speaker 1: UM love having these conversations. I like testing ideas and

1771
01:40:13,520 --> 01:40:17,040
Speaker 1: and trying to find ways to connect. So you know,

1772
01:40:17,240 --> 01:40:19,400
Speaker 1: hopefully like hopefully you're seeing that a little bit and

1773
01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:23,240
Speaker 1: and again hopefully people listening can see, Um, you know

1774
01:40:23,280 --> 01:40:27,439
Speaker 1: where you're coming from and what it means to you. Yeah,

1775
01:40:27,560 --> 01:40:30,519
Speaker 1: right on, Yeah, is there any is there anything else

1776
01:40:30,560 --> 01:40:31,680
Speaker 1: you want to say? I don't I don't want to

1777
01:40:31,720 --> 01:40:34,400
Speaker 1: You know, this isn't about this, certainly isn't about a debate.

1778
01:40:34,840 --> 01:40:37,160
Speaker 1: You know, you're you have a forum here to speak

1779
01:40:37,160 --> 01:40:40,559
Speaker 1: to an audience that would never hear you, never hear

1780
01:40:40,600 --> 01:40:43,920
Speaker 1: your thoughts before. So is there something you know, something

1781
01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:45,600
Speaker 1: that you thought of you want to say to to

1782
01:40:46,040 --> 01:40:49,040
Speaker 1: you know, tens of thousands of hunters out there to say,

1783
01:40:49,439 --> 01:40:52,960
Speaker 1: you know, for those listening that you know, regarding this

1784
01:40:53,040 --> 01:40:58,320
Speaker 1: conversation that we're having right now. UM, it essentially comes

1785
01:40:58,360 --> 01:41:01,040
Speaker 1: down to choosing whether you into inntionally want to support

1786
01:41:01,200 --> 01:41:06,519
Speaker 1: the violations of animals or not. And um, and since

1787
01:41:06,560 --> 01:41:09,120
Speaker 1: we do not know how many deaths go into a

1788
01:41:09,240 --> 01:41:14,880
Speaker 1: pound or a kilo of rice or beans, and it's

1789
01:41:15,080 --> 01:41:22,920
Speaker 1: very reasonable for us to say that that there are

1790
01:41:23,000 --> 01:41:29,200
Speaker 1: less violations occurring with those products. Um, if you look

1791
01:41:29,240 --> 01:41:31,400
Speaker 1: at like over the course of a year, for example,

1792
01:41:32,040 --> 01:41:34,479
Speaker 1: for the consumption of a vegan versus the consumption of

1793
01:41:34,520 --> 01:41:38,439
Speaker 1: a hunter someone like yourself, band who also consumes products

1794
01:41:38,479 --> 01:41:42,560
Speaker 1: that I consume. Then you know, over the course of

1795
01:41:42,600 --> 01:41:47,080
Speaker 1: a year, it's very safe to say that someone like

1796
01:41:47,200 --> 01:41:53,160
Speaker 1: myself vegan is going to cause far less violations to animals.

1797
01:41:54,520 --> 01:41:57,040
Speaker 1: And so I think that we have a moral obligation.

1798
01:41:57,880 --> 01:42:00,719
Speaker 1: And I guess the question for me to the listeners

1799
01:42:00,880 --> 01:42:06,639
Speaker 1: is to the question from me is do you believe

1800
01:42:06,760 --> 01:42:13,040
Speaker 1: that animal rights is something that you should take serious?

1801
01:42:13,320 --> 01:42:15,519
Speaker 1: Do you do believe that you should take animal rights seriously?

1802
01:42:16,040 --> 01:42:19,400
Speaker 1: Do you believe that you have the right to violate

1803
01:42:19,439 --> 01:42:22,639
Speaker 1: animals and their rights, to take their rights away from them.

1804
01:42:23,400 --> 01:42:25,639
Speaker 1: Do you believe that you should care about animal rights

1805
01:42:25,680 --> 01:42:30,280
Speaker 1: and you should do something about animal rights when faced

1806
01:42:30,360 --> 01:42:33,519
Speaker 1: with the scenario where animal rights are being violated, especially

1807
01:42:33,560 --> 01:42:37,479
Speaker 1: when they're being violated by you. And that's what I'd

1808
01:42:37,520 --> 01:42:39,240
Speaker 1: like to leave people to think about and to do

1809
01:42:39,360 --> 01:42:41,880
Speaker 1: something about, you know. I like to talk to people

1810
01:42:41,920 --> 01:42:44,760
Speaker 1: about accountability and the responsibility that each of us as

1811
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:50,559
Speaker 1: individuals have, and I'd like for people to really consider

1812
01:42:50,600 --> 01:42:55,160
Speaker 1: their own participate, their own place in all of this,

1813
01:42:55,840 --> 01:42:58,439
Speaker 1: because we all have a place in this and the

1814
01:42:58,520 --> 01:43:04,000
Speaker 1: world doesn't just it doesn't just run um and operate

1815
01:43:04,120 --> 01:43:09,320
Speaker 1: the way that it does accidentally, it operates deliberately because

1816
01:43:09,360 --> 01:43:12,800
Speaker 1: of individuals and their choices. So, yes, we all have

1817
01:43:13,040 --> 01:43:17,240
Speaker 1: a personal journey, and we all have personal choices. But

1818
01:43:17,439 --> 01:43:20,040
Speaker 1: when we have choices that we need to make that

1819
01:43:20,120 --> 01:43:22,680
Speaker 1: a personal that violate the rights of others, they're no

1820
01:43:22,800 --> 01:43:27,519
Speaker 1: longer personal. They infect everyone else. They affect. And I

1821
01:43:27,600 --> 01:43:29,680
Speaker 1: said infect there is a slip of the world, but

1822
01:43:29,760 --> 01:43:32,240
Speaker 1: it actually does infect the world because it affects the

1823
01:43:32,240 --> 01:43:35,760
Speaker 1: world in such a negative way. And we have the

1824
01:43:35,880 --> 01:43:38,360
Speaker 1: power to make positive change in the world, to to

1825
01:43:39,040 --> 01:43:43,439
Speaker 1: too cause change, to cause an effect in the world

1826
01:43:43,520 --> 01:43:48,680
Speaker 1: that is positive by making the right choice, using that

1827
01:43:48,880 --> 01:43:51,760
Speaker 1: guideline to make those choices is going to be a

1828
01:43:51,840 --> 01:43:54,400
Speaker 1: lot easier. It's going to be a lot better for

1829
01:43:54,520 --> 01:43:58,400
Speaker 1: people to just simply ask that question to themselves that

1830
01:43:58,680 --> 01:44:02,160
Speaker 1: rather than asking that question to the world. God. Yeah,

1831
01:44:02,280 --> 01:44:04,120
Speaker 1: I mean, there's lots I agree within their lots I

1832
01:44:04,160 --> 01:44:06,600
Speaker 1: disagree with. But I guess that's the point and of

1833
01:44:06,720 --> 01:44:10,720
Speaker 1: this conversation. Paul listenant, I really appreciate you stepping into

1834
01:44:10,800 --> 01:44:13,360
Speaker 1: this um and being so open as to share what

1835
01:44:13,439 --> 01:44:14,880
Speaker 1: you do and what you think and how you move

1836
01:44:14,920 --> 01:44:17,040
Speaker 1: through the world. I certainly didn't have to do this,

1837
01:44:17,360 --> 01:44:20,040
Speaker 1: It wasn't required, um, but I think this will help

1838
01:44:20,080 --> 01:44:22,120
Speaker 1: a lot of people both understand where you're coming from

1839
01:44:22,760 --> 01:44:25,760
Speaker 1: and understand kind of where the debate hinges upon, and

1840
01:44:26,640 --> 01:44:28,800
Speaker 1: make their own decision based on what they've heard today

1841
01:44:28,840 --> 01:44:31,320
Speaker 1: and what they'll continue to hear. I'm sure from an

1842
01:44:31,360 --> 01:44:33,680
Speaker 1: honesce for the voiceless and also us here at Meat Eater.

1843
01:44:33,800 --> 01:44:35,560
Speaker 1: So I just want to say thank you man for

1844
01:44:35,600 --> 01:44:37,680
Speaker 1: taking the time to do this. You didn't have to, Yeah, Ben,

1845
01:44:37,920 --> 01:44:40,120
Speaker 1: thank you. I appreciate you reaching out and wanting to

1846
01:44:40,400 --> 01:44:45,080
Speaker 1: have this discussion. You're certainly one hunter that I've spoken to,

1847
01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:50,080
Speaker 1: or one person that exists on the side of eating

1848
01:44:50,600 --> 01:44:56,560
Speaker 1: animals and the idea that you know, I guess, the

1849
01:44:56,640 --> 01:44:59,800
Speaker 1: carnival side of things, or you know, that idea that

1850
01:45:00,160 --> 01:45:04,599
Speaker 1: animals are here to be eating them. Um. Many people

1851
01:45:04,640 --> 01:45:06,320
Speaker 1: have reached out to me in the past and haven't

1852
01:45:06,360 --> 01:45:12,320
Speaker 1: been as respectful and as intelligent as you have come across.

1853
01:45:12,600 --> 01:45:16,080
Speaker 1: So I appreciate that, Ben, really, yeah man, that you

1854
01:45:16,160 --> 01:45:18,919
Speaker 1: can reach out to more people, more animal rights activists

1855
01:45:18,960 --> 01:45:21,639
Speaker 1: and have these kinds of conversations. I'd recommend Ed. Actually

1856
01:45:21,760 --> 01:45:23,680
Speaker 1: you mentioned Ed. Yeah, if you can hook me up

1857
01:45:23,680 --> 01:45:25,240
Speaker 1: with him, I tried to. I don't know him, so

1858
01:45:25,280 --> 01:45:27,599
Speaker 1: I just tried to, like, you know, kind of sheepishly

1859
01:45:27,720 --> 01:45:30,880
Speaker 1: mastered him on Instagram or something. Um, if you know him,

1860
01:45:30,880 --> 01:45:33,080
Speaker 1: I would love to continue this conversation with Ed or

1861
01:45:33,080 --> 01:45:36,679
Speaker 1: anyone else. Um. Like I said, I really value testing

1862
01:45:36,760 --> 01:45:38,720
Speaker 1: my own ideas. I don't want to sit around in

1863
01:45:38,800 --> 01:45:42,200
Speaker 1: my own echo chamber and shout how right I am.

1864
01:45:42,280 --> 01:45:44,240
Speaker 1: I I want to talk to people. I want to

1865
01:45:44,240 --> 01:45:45,880
Speaker 1: talk to people that yeah, I want to talk to

1866
01:45:45,920 --> 01:45:48,560
Speaker 1: people that say, like, this ain't right man. UM. So

1867
01:45:48,760 --> 01:45:52,280
Speaker 1: I can continue to either shift my position or I

1868
01:45:52,360 --> 01:45:54,759
Speaker 1: don't often want to say harden it, but just understand

1869
01:45:54,840 --> 01:45:57,439
Speaker 1: it a little bit better. And and I think you know,

1870
01:45:57,520 --> 01:45:59,679
Speaker 1: we talked about having your own before on the show,

1871
01:45:59,760 --> 01:46:02,240
Speaker 1: and it is like, hey, this, We're gonna contin continue

1872
01:46:02,280 --> 01:46:04,960
Speaker 1: down this road, to continue to challenge the things that

1873
01:46:05,080 --> 01:46:08,799
Speaker 1: we think are true in order to explore these important

1874
01:46:08,840 --> 01:46:12,120
Speaker 1: concepts because they're important. Killing of animals in any way

1875
01:46:12,160 --> 01:46:13,760
Speaker 1: that we do it is an important thing for us

1876
01:46:13,840 --> 01:46:16,960
Speaker 1: to think about critically. UM. And I know we can

1877
01:46:17,040 --> 01:46:20,840
Speaker 1: agree on that for sure. And so and so that's

1878
01:46:20,880 --> 01:46:23,120
Speaker 1: what you want to have a chat again in the future,

1879
01:46:23,200 --> 01:46:27,320
Speaker 1: i'd great, man, that's great. Awesome dude, Well, I really

1880
01:46:27,360 --> 01:46:30,240
Speaker 1: appreciate everything. And again you can check check out what

1881
01:46:30,320 --> 01:46:32,120
Speaker 1: they do. Well. We have some videos I know your

1882
01:46:32,160 --> 01:46:34,400
Speaker 1: folks send us that will put up on Instagram, so

1883
01:46:34,479 --> 01:46:36,439
Speaker 1: you guys can see the Cubic truth and what that

1884
01:46:36,560 --> 01:46:39,439
Speaker 1: looks like. And and certainly go go find Paul. Go

1885
01:46:39,560 --> 01:46:41,880
Speaker 1: find what he does and explore it. Don't be don't

1886
01:46:41,920 --> 01:46:44,120
Speaker 1: be that person that that doesn't want to hear something

1887
01:46:44,160 --> 01:46:46,200
Speaker 1: you don't agree with. Be the person that explores it

1888
01:46:46,720 --> 01:46:49,600
Speaker 1: and accepts what what it, accepts it for what it is,

1889
01:46:49,680 --> 01:46:52,519
Speaker 1: and knows that that these things exist. We exist on

1890
01:46:52,600 --> 01:46:55,240
Speaker 1: different polls. So that's what That's what I think. And again, Paul,

1891
01:46:55,240 --> 01:46:57,880
Speaker 1: thanks so much, man Um. Hopefully that locked on doesn't

1892
01:46:57,920 --> 01:47:02,680
Speaker 1: last too long in no worries. Thanks be alright, Lo,

1893
01:47:03,160 --> 01:47:09,280
Speaker 1: because I can't go a week without doing run, without

1894
01:47:10,200 --> 01:47:19,080
Speaker 1: run ranking out right drinking