WEBVTT - Spotify Betting Big on Podcasts 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.240 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser. Every day 0:00:03.279 --> 0:00:05.200 we're bringing you the latest news from the world's of 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:08.920 business and finance, plus technology, politics. So much going on 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.160 in the world of politics, economics, and it's all harnessing 0:00:12.160 --> 0:00:14.840 the power of Business Week reporters and editors. If you 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:18.280 can download Bloomberg Business Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:20.480 dot com. If you can also listen to a radio 0:00:20.520 --> 0:00:23.400 show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, and be 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:26.280 sure to watch us too on YouTube by searching Bloomberg 0:00:26.360 --> 0:00:30.480 Global News. Global virus cases him nine one million topping 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:34.599 million deaths, surpassing one million vaccines given out more than 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:38.800 twenty nine million shots given worldwide. Cannot come soon enough 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:42.560 to vaccine for for widespread vaccination, I should say exactly, 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:44.840 and figures cross that it continues to pick up speed. 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:47.960 Back with us is Dr Sandro Golea. He's Dina Professor 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:51.199 at Boston University School of Public Health, author of Pained 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.840 Uncomfortable Conversations about the Public's health. He joins us once 0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:57.440 again on the phone from Boston. Dr Golea, nice to 0:00:57.480 --> 0:01:00.960 have you here, Happy New Year. How are you tell 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.240 me kind of what's going on in your world from 0:01:03.240 --> 0:01:05.920 an academic level as all, as well as from what 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:10.400 you're seeing on the vaccine in COVID. Happy New Year, Carol, 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.360 and happy new year, kim. Um. I am, I am. 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.880 As we've discussed on the show before, I'm unfortunately well 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:19.280 and my family as well. And these are these are 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:23.120 difficult times. I find myself entering the new year with 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:26.959 an equal mix of trepidation and hope, and on any 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:29.920 given day, I try to make sure that hope overtakes trepidation. 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:32.360 Now you know why trepidation, Well, we have a lot 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:34.600 of challenges we're still facing as a country, separate and 0:01:34.640 --> 0:01:37.559 apart from the politics that we are all living through. 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:41.920 We COVID remains a really important problem. The economy, which 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:44.600 is a result of COVID remains an important problem. And 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.320 and all of this, as we've discussed, is on a 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:50.680 foundation of structural issues like racism that we have been 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:52.040 dealing with as a country for a long time. So 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:54.760 I think those things all give me trepidation. All of 0:01:54.800 --> 0:01:56.160 a sudden, I want you for an hour. I'm just 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:58.080 going to tell you, um, Sandral, let me ask you 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.920 something though. What we saw last tweak obviously the dysfunction 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.920 um that I think it's safe to say has been 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:08.720 caused by our president, whether it's internally within the government 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.440 and then more more broadly across society. How do you 0:02:12.480 --> 0:02:16.280 think that has hindered in some ways the rollout of 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:20.600 the COVID nineteen vaccine. I think enormously. I don't think 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.680 we can over overstate how much lack of federal leadership 0:02:24.680 --> 0:02:27.560 has hindered their response to COVID. We've vaccinated about nine 0:02:27.600 --> 0:02:29.679 million people in the country right now, and if we 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:31.600 keep vaccinating at this rate, it will take us two 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:33.600 years before we vaccinated the whole country, which of course 0:02:33.600 --> 0:02:36.360 is unacceptable. And remember this is in the in the 0:02:36.400 --> 0:02:38.520 context of a lot of promises that have been made 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:42.800 by the by the executive branch. So politics has been 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:45.720 an integral part of the COVID story right from the beginning. 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:47.000 It has been a part of the story as to 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.000 why we separated from who, has been part of the 0:02:50.040 --> 0:02:52.600 story why half the country doesn't seem to believe that 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:54.200 COVID is a real thing. It's been part of the 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:55.720 story as to why we do or don't go a 0:02:55.800 --> 0:03:00.320 vaccine or masks. And I think it's a real reminder. Uh. 0:03:00.600 --> 0:03:03.079 You know, Rudolf Rca, one of the fathers of microbiology, 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.160 said that medicine is politics on a grand scale, and 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.320 we've never seen that more clearly than we have in 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:12.120 twenty twenty. I'm wondering about the rollout of vaccine right 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:16.079 now here we are, we're almost exactly a month into 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.799 when that first shot was given. What have we learned 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:22.480 about the right way to give people the vaccine? And 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:29.040 I mean age wise, profession wise, what is the right approach? Well, fundamentally, 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.920 our priorities are right, and by that I mean that 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:35.080 we are prioritizing healthcare workers and people at highest risk, 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:36.960 and those are people at the older age groups and 0:03:36.960 --> 0:03:39.640 people with underlying conditions. So I think all of that 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:42.440 we have the concepts correct. I think what where we're 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:46.240 stumbling is really at the implementation and the programatics. So 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:48.640 a couple of things that we've learned. Number one is 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:52.800 that the guidelines are being interpreted very strictly in clinics 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.400 and hospitals and nursing homes, which means that a lot 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.280 of vaccine is going unused because there are not enough 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:01.200 people in that risk category greed to get the vaccine. 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:03.440 In that particular spot and that care needs to be loosen. 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:06.960 And number two, we are realizing that the vaccine distribution 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:09.840 is going through these formal channels of hospitals and nursing homes, 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:12.120 and it's not happening fast enough to get to the 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:14.119 people who are at high risk, people over a certain age, 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:16.599 and people with underlying conditions. And there are states that 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:18.720 have done well, you know, we shouldn't forget that. For example, 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:23.920 West Virginia had vaccinated everybody in its in its assistant 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:27.760 living facilities nursing homes before Christmas, which is quite remarkable, 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:30.480 and they did that by contracting out the CPS and Walgreens. 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:34.360 Other states have taken approaches that are right now controversial, 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:38.400 for example Florida creating large vaccination sides for people over 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.320 the age of six to five. But ultimately the right 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:43.360 answer has to be determined state by state. But it's 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:45.800 pretty clear to me that we need to make sure 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:49.200 that the vaccine is available very very quickly, with criteria 0:04:49.240 --> 0:04:52.479 that are clear about who's prioritized, but flexible enough to 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:54.120 make sure that the vaccine can be delivered quickly. In 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.600 a particular context, we are also seeing a little bit 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.680 of hesitancy from healthcare workers. The reporting shows that it's 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:03.560 not necessarily doctors, but different people who work at long 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:07.160 term care facilities and hospitals as well. What's the right 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:11.400 messaging to make sure that they're fully informed on why 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:15.559 they should get the vaccine. I think the messaging is simple, 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:21.159 that the vaccine is safe, it's effective, and fundamentally doesn't 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:23.080 just help the personnel takes them, it helps the rest 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:26.279 of us remember what we're trying to achieve as collective immunity. 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:29.840 So tim you're being vaccinated helps me, My being vaccinator 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:34.160 helps Carol. And I think there is a personal need 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:36.240 to take the vaccine to make sure that would protect ourselves, 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:39.719 but also a collective obligation to take the vaccine to 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.960 improve our collective immunity. And I think that message I 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:45.279 suppose I go back to where I started, Carol, with 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:48.640 my mix of trepidation and hope. My hope is that 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.920 in the next few weeks, the common sense is going 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.880 to prevail that enough people will recognize that we are 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.960 dealing with a safe, effective vaccine to help us end 0:05:58.080 --> 0:06:01.240 a really terrible pandemic that has paralyzed the world. And 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:03.520 we're going to see much less of that hesitancy and 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:05.880 weeks going forward. I do want to ask you and 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:08.520 I have to say, um, Dr Galaia, Tim and I 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:09.840 kind of went back and forth. Do we want to 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:11.560 bring this up? But it is the second most read 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:14.200 story on the Bloomberg. It's from the New York Times 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:16.800 and it talks about a Florida physician who developed an 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.320 unusual blood disorder shortly after he received the Fiser vaccine. 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.880 Not yet known if the shot is linked um to 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:26.920 the illness, and he did die from an unusually severe 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:32.120 blood disorder sixteen days after receiving that vaccine. Help me 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:35.200 out here. How are we to be smart about when 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:38.960 we hear stories like this? Yeah, that's an excellent question. 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.160 The what we have to remember is that that when 0:06:42.360 --> 0:06:45.120 you're giving vaccines to millions of people, the vaccine is 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.599 a point in time and other things are going on 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:51.560 to people's lives that precipitate illness. So it becomes very 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:55.000 difficult for us as humans to say, well, the vaccine happened, 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:57.279 and something bad happened, Well, therefore the vaccine must have 0:06:57.320 --> 0:07:01.320 caused it. The reassurance we have is that these vaccines 0:07:01.320 --> 0:07:03.960 that are in the market right now we're tested on 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:07.599 hundreds of thousands of people. Literally, the side effects are 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.520 every single one is monitored carefully by a review committee, 0:07:10.920 --> 0:07:14.280 and there's been nothing in the trials that suggests that 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:17.520 these vaccines cause these kind of severe illnesses like the 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:20.320 one that's being right now discussed as potentially being in 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.760 conjunction with somebody who took the vaccine. So this is true, 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:26.280 This is true for all vaccines. And a lot of 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:30.720 the anti vaccine movement that was really triggered by some 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:36.200 shoddy science around children who took vaccines and then developed autism, 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:40.800 And the science has now pretty conclusively demonstrated that the 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:44.240 development of autism terrible diagnosis, really had nothing to do 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:46.560 with taking the vaccine. It was These were diagnosies that 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:48.840 were going to happen anyway, and the vaccine was just 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:50.760 one of a series of events. To think of it 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.520 another way, if somebody develops a disease, well, we seldom 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:56.400 go back and think of the fact, well they crossed 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:59.560 the street two weeks before, and and of course if 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.600 we if we actually focused on cross industry, would they say, well, 0:08:02.720 --> 0:08:06.160 that person developed developed the disease because he crossed the street. 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:08.480 Now I'm not saying that to minimize and I really 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:10.720 want to be careful that I what misunderstood, because I 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:13.200 do think that in a moment like this, all those 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:15.720 cases should be taken seriously and the signs should be 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:18.000 looking very carefully to make sure that there's nothing we're missing. 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:20.600 But there are systems in place, and we as a 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.440 country are very good at looking at these cases and 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.000 making sure that there's nothing that we're missing. And Dr Glaia. 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.400 We should note that the article goes further to point 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.120 out that roughly nine million people here in the US 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:34.680 have received the vaccine already, and as far as side 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:38.920 effects go, the most serious problems recorded reported were these 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.840 twenty nine cases of anaphylaxis, that's the severe allergic reaction, 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.000 and none of those were fatal. Remind us, did you 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:48.360 get and and those and those were among people are 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:51.640 and those were among people who previously had history of 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:55.480 an ephylaxis and allergic reactions to think, sorry, go ahead them. No. 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:59.079 I was just gonna remind us, did you get vaccinated yet? No? 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:02.360 I have not. I'm I don't. I'm not patient facing, 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:04.200 meaning you know, I run a school of public health 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.400 and although a lot of our students and the number 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:08.120 of faculty deal with patients. I don't on a day 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:09.520 to day basis, so I'm not in the in the 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:11.720 high risk category. So I will I will wait my 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:13.880 turn when that comes in a few months. But you 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:16.040 would be comfortable getting any of these vaccines that are 0:09:16.040 --> 0:09:19.000 available and have been tested now. Oh, if I if 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:21.199 I could get the vaccine tomorrow, I would, But I 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:23.720 also I also want to respect the fact that there 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:24.959 are people who are higher risk than I am, and 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:27.079 they should get the vaccine first. But if if if 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:29.000 the vaccine were we able tomorrow, I would, I would 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:31.520 need it because I would like to make sure that 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:33.840 I'm no longer at risk of getting COVID, and I 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.040 think all all your listeners should feel the same way. Listen, 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:38.880 before we leave, we'd be remiss if we didn't ask 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:42.199 you forty five seconds here, Um, what's going on at 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:45.200 Boston University School of Public cath or you bring students back? 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.920 What's the expectation? And just got about forty five seconds. Yeah. 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:51.560 The our current our current thinking is to do what 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:53.400 we did in the fall, which is where we create 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:55.480 an opportunity for students to learn in person if they 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:57.520 if they need to learn in person. We will teach 0:09:57.640 --> 0:09:59.679 some students in person, some digitally, so it will be 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:02.040 a bit of and mix. But many universities, for example, 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.839 like Princeton and Brown, who who they were not in 0:10:04.960 --> 0:10:06.840 person in the fall, are now coming back in the 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.120 spring and doing just that, which is saying to students, 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:11.600 if you need to learn in person, your circumstances are 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:13.440 such that you need to be here in person will 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:15.880 create those conditions for you, and the students who want 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.280 to learn from home can learn from home. Thank you 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.280 so much. Always learn us so much when you come 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:23.680 on with us. So thank you so much. Stay safe 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:26.680 and look forward to next time. Dr Sandra Gala, he's 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:28.840 dean at the Boston University School of Public Health. On 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:31.240 the phone from Boston, and do check out his book. 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:33.640 We've talked a lot about the inequities when it comes 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:35.760 to health care. He's written a book it's called Pained 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:38.720 Uncomfortable Conversations about the Public's Health. I mean, this is 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:41.000 I feel like a conversation we have to continue to have. Yeah. 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:42.960 I think one thing that's become clear is that the 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:45.880 pandemic has exposed so much about our society that so 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.200 many people were familiar with but we're finally having a 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.600 conversation of about the inequities and inequalities within our health 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.280 care system and perhaps what we can do to finally 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:56.760 start to address those. Yeah, life at large, and hopefully 0:10:56.760 --> 0:11:00.320 those conversations lead to actions. This is Bloomberg Business Week 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:04.320 with Carol Messer from Bloomberg Radio. Spotify it's the most 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:07.040 popular paid music service in the world. Stock swored something 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:09.800 like a ten percent last year, It's up another nine 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:12.560 percent so far this year, and yet kind of little thing. 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:14.440 It hasn't turned a profit since it's founding back in 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:18.080 two thousand six, So what is it's big better profitability? 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:21.760 This story covers that reporting for Bloomberg Business Week, Lucas Shaw, 0:11:21.920 --> 0:11:24.240 he is Bloomberg News Entertainment reporter on the phone in 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.600 l a along with Bloomberg Business Week editor Joe Weber 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.280 on the access line in Brooklyn. This is such a 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:31.480 smart story, really everything and anything you want to know 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:36.760 about Spotify and it's plans to be profitable. Joel. Yeah, 0:11:36.880 --> 0:11:39.920 And if I rewind my relationship with with Lucas, I 0:11:40.000 --> 0:11:41.880 think the very first time I met him, when I 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:45.800 like took over Bloomberg Business Week, he like stopped me 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:47.880 in my tracks, and we just he was like podcast 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:52.040 man podcast and he's he's so right, and and this 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:55.920 story is a modest reflection of it. And the you know, 0:11:55.960 --> 0:11:57.720 the thing that I kind of love about it is, 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:00.640 you know, Spotify has long been a music service, and 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:04.319 along that way they realize that music is actually not 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.640 that profitable. A lot of that revenue ends up having 0:12:07.720 --> 0:12:09.920 to go back to the record labels, and they've been 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:14.800 unsuccessful at really um being able to like have artists 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:18.840 come directly to them. But what they've realized is that 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:23.800 podcasts have gigantic revenue potential. So so Lucas Joe Rogan 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.800 is the thing that everybody knows. But what does Spotify 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:33.960 having the works? Spotify has plans for any kind of 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:36.040 show you can think of, and then ten other kinds 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.120 of shows you probably never thought about. I mean, they 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:42.120 bought Bill Simmons company. He hosts a very popular sports podcast, 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:44.559 and they're now working on dozens of different sports and 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:48.160 pop culture shows. They have, you know, Jamal Hill coming 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:52.360 into work on network of shows and buy for Black Women. 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:54.760 They have Michelle Obama, they have to do con Dutchess 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:58.000 of Pussics. They make kind of really cheaply made true 0:12:58.000 --> 0:13:00.439 crime shows. They're working on shows all of the world, 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:03.320 both as originals and translations. You know, think about the 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:06.440 exhaustion you feel trying to consider how many different TV 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:08.960 shows are available right now, and then multiply that times 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:14.080 about a hundred or a thousands for podcasts. So for years, 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:18.600 Lucas this was a sort of idea of experience when 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:22.200 it came to music streaming services, right the same music 0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:25.359 was offered on Apple Music that was offered on Spotify 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:29.640 that some people had title whatever YouTuber Google was calling that, 0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.319 you know, their current music service had the same music. 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:35.880 Um but now it seems to have changed because of 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:38.720 of podcasts. Do you see this sort of evolving in 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:42.440 the way that streaming video services have evolved, where if 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:45.199 you want to listen to Joe Rogan or if you 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.440 want to listen to Michelle Obama, the only place to 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:51.480 do that ultimately will be with a Spotify subscription. I 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:55.240 think it'll be very similar to just streaming TV, but 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.920 with a slight change in that some of the podcasts 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:03.920 may still to be available everywhere. There is not a 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:07.160 dominant player in podcasting it. Spotify is not there yet, 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.640 especially not in the US, and so for some shows 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:14.079 it it really hurts their potential audience size to only 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:18.559 be there. But you'll see them play with windows of exclusivity, 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:20.240 and there's lots of different forms of that. So the 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:24.880 Michelle Obama podcast started as a Spotify exclusive. Now that 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:27.240 it's it's been off for several months and Spotify sort 0:14:27.240 --> 0:14:29.600 of sucked up all the potential customers. It has been 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:33.359 distributed more widely in other places. A show like The Rewatchables, 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.560 which Bill Simmons company makes, where they kind of talk 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.520 about old movies. All those new episodes are available everywhere, 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:41.200 but if you want to go back and listen to 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.760 any of the older episodes, you have to go to Spotify. 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:45.320 So I think we're gonna see a lot of playing 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:49.040 with that, and definitely Spotify competitors are starting to do 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:51.320 the same. You know, Amazon just bought Wondering, which is 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:54.440 a podcast studio and has struck rights for exclusive shows. 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:57.240 Apple has a handful of exclusive shows. But I think 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:59.840 we're going to see them really increase that investment at 0:15:00.160 --> 0:15:04.560 point in the next twelve eighteen months, just under Rewatchable, 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:09.840 as I highly recommend the point break episode that, Yeah, 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.160 it's so good but but Lucas, you you brought up 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.520 a couple of competitors there, and you know, Apple is 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:19.400 one that I'm I'm really curious about because you know, 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:22.280 a couple of years ago when they spun off podcasts 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.160 as a separate thing from from iTunes, this was before 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.160 sort of Apple Music. They sort of had a missed 0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:32.240 opportunity there, and it seems like Spotify is really doubled 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:36.760 down on it and by making uh podcasts such as 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:41.000 Steamless part of the user interface. So so who's who's 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:45.240 ultimately the on the team within Spotify. That's that's you know, 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:50.760 cracked this code. Well, it started with an executive named 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:54.000 Courtney Holt, I would say, who joined after a long 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.520 career in media. He dabbled in trying to make original 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:01.400 videos work at Spotify and thenically glommed onto this idea 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:05.480 of building a podcasting apparatus. He knew he was smart 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:07.160 enough to kind of know what he didn't know, and 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.040 so he went out kind of armed with the checkbook 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.960 to buy a bunch of companies that were studios they 0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:15.880 could bring in to create the infrastructure right away. So 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.920 they bought Gimlet Media, which is a really good podcast 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.880 studio based in New York, perhaps best known for the 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.920 show Reply All. The guys who were on Gimlet Media 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:29.160 are now Spotify employees are overseeing a lot of the 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:32.520 podcasting business, not just Gimlet. They bought podcast which was 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.920 another studio based in Los Angeles. They bought Anchor, which 0:16:35.920 --> 0:16:38.200 was the technology company they brought in again, they bought 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:41.480 the Simon company, and so they have you know, there's 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:43.720 a whole new part of that business. I was talking 0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.360 with somebody on the music side recently to acknowledge that 0:16:46.360 --> 0:16:49.960 there were hundreds of Spotify employees and an entire group 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:52.760 and teams that they didn't know and they almost never 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:55.040 interfaced with. And it's it's a really you know, it's 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.920 a bet the company kind of move for Spotify. So 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:01.200 I gotta ask you. I mean mentioned uh coming in 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:05.080 the stock up more last year or so. Investors are 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:10.080 kind of betting big. They've got expectations, Um, Lucas, have 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:13.880 they cracked the code from becoming profitable based on all 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.320 of your reporting. I gotta say, those ad insertions, of 0:17:17.400 --> 0:17:21.440 streaming ad insertions drive me crazy. Um, but if you're 0:17:21.440 --> 0:17:24.800 paying for it, it does, right, Yeah, So I do 0:17:24.960 --> 0:17:29.679 wonder like, have they cracked the code? The way I 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:32.160 like to think about it is that that Daniel Act, 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:35.840 Spotifies CEO, has bought himself time to figure it out. 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:39.040 They definitely have not cracked the code yet. Podcasting is 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.720 still a very small business. Um, and I agree that 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.440 kind of delivering at people who pay for Spotify premium 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:48.159 is something that they might have to work on in 0:17:48.160 --> 0:17:50.760 the future. But what they're trying to do is to 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:53.479 just continue to get bigger and bigger. Spotify now has 0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:57.000 more than three hundred million customers, more than forty million paid. 0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.960 If they can get to five hundred million US six 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.359 hundred million, seven hundred millions, that becomes so big that 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:06.160 I just think that advertisers have to take it seriously 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:09.359 and you'll see more of that money shift over from radio, 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:11.679 because radio, for all of its problems in the U. 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:15.520 S Alone, is like at fifteen billion dollar business. If 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:18.359 Spotify can take five billion of that money at a 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.280 better margin than has on On on the paid service, 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.520 right then it becomes a real business. We're just not 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:28.280 there yet. Yeah, Well, expectations are definitely high on Wall Street. Um. 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.400 It's an incredible story. There's so much detail, it's such 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.520 a smart read and another great report by Lucas Shaw. Lucas, 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.320 thank you so much. Entertainment reporter at Bloomberg News with 0:18:37.400 --> 0:18:38.840 us on the phone from l A. Check them out 0:18:38.840 --> 0:18:42.520 at Twitter at Lucas Underscore Shaw. Jill Webber, of course, 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:45.160 editor of Bloomberg Business Week on the remote Access from Brooklyn. 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:49.080 You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:53.760 Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stinovy on Bloomberg Radio, you are 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.520 listening to Bloomberg Business Week and a top story today 0:18:56.600 --> 0:18:58.439 because I think it's safe to say that many of 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:01.080 us believe that in figuring out what would wrong last Wednesday, 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:03.240 the riot and breaching of the capital, we need to 0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:06.119 understand those that did it, ask the question why, and 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.200 we need to talk to them. Tim, Yeah, we do. Um. 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:13.119 This was just a fascinating piece by our colleague William Turton. 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:16.240 No regrets a capital riot or tells his story from 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:18.679 the inside, and I think a lot of people are 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:22.119 wondering what were these people thinking. Unfortunately, we have William 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:24.520 with us to really help shine a light on that. Yeah, 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:26.120 he's on the phone in New York City. The story 0:19:26.160 --> 0:19:28.320 among the most right on the Bloomberg. Williams, so good 0:19:28.320 --> 0:19:30.760 to have you here. It's a must read for everyone. 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:34.639 So tell us about the individual that you talked to. 0:19:34.760 --> 0:19:38.840 Brandon Fellows. Hi, thanks for having me on. So. Brendon 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.119 Fellows is a twenty six year old from upstate New 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.600 York who decided to go to the Trump rally when 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.119 he saw a tweet from President Trump in December he 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:47.600 said there's going to be a big rally on the 0:19:47.600 --> 0:19:50.400 sixth and DC. He said, to be there. It will 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:53.240 be wild. So when when Fellows saw that tweet, he 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:55.560 decided to go to DC. And you know, something really 0:19:55.560 --> 0:19:57.640 revealing that he told me is that, you know, while 0:19:57.680 --> 0:19:59.919 he does believe the election was rigged and he had 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.120 has been, you know, consuming a lot of content about 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:06.840 electand fraud, his primary motivation was his anger at government 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:10.720 shutdowns due to due to coronavirus, which I thought was 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:14.040 really kind of fascinating. Yeah, that part was really interesting, 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:17.320 william And I wonder to what it says about the 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:19.800 idea of you know, there's so much psychology here, right, like, 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:22.760