1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. Earlier this year, a 2 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: woman approached Bloomberg's London office with the stories she thought 3 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:18,600 Speaker 1: needed telling about one of the oldest and most prestigious 4 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:20,080 Speaker 1: universities in the world. 5 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:24,119 Speaker 2: She's been trying to highlight problems with Oxford for a 6 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 2: while now. 7 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 1: Catherine Griffiths covers the city of London for Bloomberg with 8 00:00:28,400 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: a focus on equality and workplace culture. 9 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,720 Speaker 2: And I thought, yes, we definitely should have a look 10 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:35,720 Speaker 2: at this story and see where it might take us. 11 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,200 Speaker 1: That one tip led Catherine to a deeper investigation into 12 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: multiple allegations of sexual misconduct, harassment, and bullying at Oxford 13 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: University and what dozens of people Catherine talked to described 14 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,879 Speaker 1: as the university's failures in handling them. 15 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 2: The sad truth is actually there are really quite a 16 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: lot of women both there now in this current day 17 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 2: and dating back years who have had really terrible experiences 18 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 2: and not only have been the victims of sexual assault 19 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 2: and harassment and bullying, but also then when they've taken 20 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 2: these problems to the university, they have been very, very 21 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 2: disappointed and traumatized because the university really hasn't dealt with 22 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: those issues in a way that the women felt was 23 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: the right way to deal with them. 24 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: I'm Sarah Holder and this is the big take from 25 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: Bloomberg News Today. On the show, an investigation into allegations 26 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 1: of harassment, bullying, and sexual misconduct at Oxford and why 27 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 1: one of the world's leading universities has been slow to 28 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: act against powerful male academics accused of inappropriate behavior. Oxford 29 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: is one of the most famous universities on the planet. 30 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: It's educated many of the world's most powerful people, including 31 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: political leaders in the UK. Its research labs have made 32 00:02:06,280 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: high profile scientific breakthroughs. Its gothic buildings are what many 33 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: people imagine when they picture university campus. It's where many 34 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: of the famous Hogwarts scenes were filmed for the Harry 35 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: Potter movies, and Bloomberg's Catherine Griffith says that within the UK, 36 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: the university looms large. 37 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 2: It's a place of huge prestige. It's a place that 38 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: attracts millions and millions of pounds of donations from individuals, 39 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,920 Speaker 2: from governments and from big business people who have an 40 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 2: interest in putting their money at a place where they 41 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: hope it can further science and further development, but where 42 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 2: also I think it's probably fair to say hope they 43 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: are going to get a little bit of that Oxford 44 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 2: magic rubbing off on them. They want something out of 45 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: that association too, So Oxford is all of those things. 46 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 1: Catherine, You've been digging into how this story influential university 47 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: handles something really important, allegations of harassment and misconduct. I'm 48 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: wondering if you can give us a sense of your 49 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: reporting process, how you know what you know. 50 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 2: Yes, so we've spoken to nearly fifty people over many 51 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 2: months now. Some of those people have been able to 52 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 2: give us some documents that back up their own accounts 53 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 2: that have been incredibly useful to really really be clear 54 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: that what we've heard is accurate and fair. We found 55 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: seven women who were able to tell us about their 56 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: experiences over the last five years that included rapes and 57 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: sexual assaults. We found there were thirty who described experiences 58 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 2: of bullying and harassment dating back over about twenty years. 59 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 2: In some cases, women who have themselves tried to come 60 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: forward to highlight other people facing these problems and who 61 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 2: have then found themselves to be squashed down, crushed, discouraged 62 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: from taking things further. So the numbers are really quite big, 63 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 2: and I think if we're being realistic, there'll be plenty 64 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: of other people who who maybe have had similar experiences. 65 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: One of the men who has been accused of harassment 66 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: is Sumitra Dutta. Who is he and what triggered Oxford's 67 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 1: initial investigation into him. 68 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, Sumitra Dutta was the dean of Oxford's Sayid 69 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: Business School and a female academic came forward earlier this 70 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 2: year and made a complaint about him. She alleged that 71 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 2: he harrassed her on several occasions. Oxford did a formal 72 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 2: investigation into those allegations and came back over the summer 73 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: to say it was upholding those allegations. Sumitra Dutta then 74 00:04:54,800 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 2: left his job. None of the information about the investigation 75 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 2: was made public at the time. There were no reasons 76 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: given at the time for his departure, so we were 77 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 2: able to report in September that he left the university 78 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 2: after this investigation and after he had been found to 79 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:17,279 Speaker 2: have harassed her. 80 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: What has the fallout been? 81 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 2: So there were academics there who were very unhappy with 82 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 2: the way the university was dealing with the investigation. They 83 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: felt they weren't being kept informed properly, and they felt 84 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 2: increasingly frustrated that, in their view, the university was being 85 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 2: quite hostile to them and not being clear and fair 86 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 2: in its processes. 87 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: Catherine also learned something about Douta's behavior in a past 88 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: workplace that could have raised flags at Oxford. 89 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 2: Before Sumitra Detter worked at Oxford, he had been the 90 00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,039 Speaker 2: dean of the Cornell Business School for a while and 91 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: he'd had a personal relationship with a young woman, a subordinate, 92 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: and when that became known at Cornell, Semitradeter stood down 93 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 2: as dean of the Business school there. Again, none of 94 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 2: that information was ever put into the public domain at 95 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 2: the time, but. 96 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: When he was hired at Oxford, they knew yeah. 97 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 2: So he continued at Cornell, just not as dean for 98 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 2: a few years, and then when he came to Oxford. 99 00:06:29,360 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 2: My sources have said that Oxford was well aware of 100 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: the fact that this had happened at Cornell, and they 101 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 2: went ahead with the hiring Anyway. 102 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 1: Dutta did not respond to Bloomberg's request for Karmet Catherine. 103 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: The way Oxford University investigated and handled Judah's case, how 104 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 1: similar is that to the way that they've handled other 105 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: cases like this. 106 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 2: So I think one of the biggest problems, both at 107 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 2: Oxford and in other universities is people being accused of misconduct. 108 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 2: They're potentially being an investigation of some description, and the 109 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 2: person then leaving that job, and it all happening behind 110 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: closed doors without any kind of disclosure or warning or 111 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 2: any sort of way in which potentially a university and 112 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: institution could try to ensure that that person maybe doesn't 113 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 2: go somewhere else where. Clearly the risk is run that 114 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: they may do it again. It seems to happen time 115 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 2: and time again. Another person in our reporting was a 116 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 2: really really prestigious professor at Oxford for a long period 117 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: of time. His name is Miles Houston. He was a 118 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: professor of social psychology. He's this really really famous person 119 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 2: in his field. We've spoken to twenty women who had 120 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,480 Speaker 2: real problem with him over quite a long period of time. 121 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: What did women tell you about Houston's behavior and how 122 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: it affected them? 123 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 2: So he ran a psychology lab and women and male 124 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 2: students both felt incredibly privileged to work with him. Yet 125 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 2: some of those women found that it was not the 126 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: kind of experience they were hoping for or expecting. Miles 127 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 2: Houston has behaved in a sexually harassing way to multiple 128 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 2: women over many years. According to our reporting, some of 129 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 2: these women described feeling flattered and overwhelmed by the tension, 130 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 2: not quite knowing what to do given the extreme power 131 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 2: and balance between them. He would give gifts to women 132 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 2: that they felt were intended to make them feel grateful 133 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:58,959 Speaker 2: towards him. If they said to him that he had 134 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 2: behaved in a way that men made them feel uncomfortable, 135 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 2: he might use this phraseology, have I been a bad boy? 136 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: What happened when women initially raise their concerns? How did 137 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: the university respond? 138 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 2: So in the case of Miles Houston, he was at 139 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 2: Oxford for eighteen years, so it's a story that sort 140 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 2: of evolved over a long time, and of course, you know, 141 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: so did society in that time. There's women who've told 142 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:28,079 Speaker 2: us about trying to raise his behavior with others. One 143 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 2: woman in particular told us about trying to talk to 144 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 2: a harassment advisor at the university, but her recollection was 145 00:09:35,960 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 2: that this harassment advisor was more worried about the potential 146 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 2: fallout for the university. Eventually, in twenty seventeen, a woman 147 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,680 Speaker 2: did decide she could bring a formal complaint against him, 148 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 2: and that really was the point at which things changed 149 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 2: and there was an investigation. We don't know exactly what 150 00:09:57,120 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 2: the outcome was, but we do know that Miles Houston 151 00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 2: left to Oxford University in twenty nineteen. 152 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: And what do we know about how Houston has responded 153 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: to the university investigations and the concerns raised about his behavior. 154 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 2: So we have tried to ask him and he has 155 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 2: not replied. I've been told by sources that he described 156 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 2: retiring at the time from Oxford in twenty nineteen. He 157 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: has done other things in public life since then, including 158 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 2: now working for this Indian university. He remains a fellow 159 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 2: of the British Academy, which is a very prestigious institution 160 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:44,599 Speaker 2: in UK society. But we haven't heard anything, certainly in 161 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 2: the public domain from him that reflects what he may 162 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 2: or may not think about these allegations. 163 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, more broadly, how has Oxford's leadership responded to 164 00:10:56,040 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: allegations of harassment, bullying, sexual misconduct in their home and 165 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 1: what's the pattern that's emerged across all of these cases. 166 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 2: For you, it has been different in different cases. We 167 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: have reported in our story on two investigations where two 168 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 2: men left Oxford, and the women involved in those cases 169 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 2: felt the outcomes were significant victories. But we have also 170 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 2: heard on multiple occasions about women who felt Oxford has 171 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,679 Speaker 2: not done a good job in pursuing their complaints. One 172 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 2: woman described it as being like a deliberate chaos machine 173 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 2: where the people involved never really intended to help. 174 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: In response to Catherine's detailed questions, Oxford said it couldn't 175 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 1: comment on individual cases, but provided a statement. 176 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: It's said directly through a spokesperson. Sexual harassment has no 177 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 2: place at Oxford. Our sympathies and thoughts are with anyone 178 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 2: who has experienced harassment or misconduct. We strive to ensure 179 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,839 Speaker 2: that Oxford is always a safe place for all students 180 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 2: and staff. We take concern and seriously applying robust procedures. 181 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 2: Support for those affected is a priority, and we take 182 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 2: precautionary and or disciplinary action where justified. And then it 183 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 2: talked about a new approach. It's brought in that they 184 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 2: say sets out our approach, support and training. We encourage 185 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:23,559 Speaker 2: anyone who has a concern to raise it. 186 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: What have the last inconsequences been for women who have 187 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: experienced harassment at Oxford, and for women who have reported 188 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: harassment at Oxford. 189 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 2: Some people who've been through even some of these recent 190 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 2: investigations have said they have been very pleased with the 191 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 2: way people have dealt with their complaints. But the lasting 192 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 2: effect really is women who have been sexually assorted or 193 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 2: harassed or bullied, and then on top of that, who 194 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:57,040 Speaker 2: have gone through processes that on the whole they have 195 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: felt to be re traumatizing, upsetting. People describe feeling that 196 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 2: they have post traumatic stress disorder. There are women who 197 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 2: have left the university. There are women who are sort 198 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 2: of now in limbo because they can't go back to 199 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 2: their studies necessarily, they can't move forward, and yet they're 200 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 2: alleged harasses have got on fine. 201 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,520 Speaker 1: So why has it been so challenging to get Oxford 202 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: to hold people accountable after concerns are raised? That's next. 203 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: Bloomberg's Catherine Griffiths has been investigating how Oxford University responds 204 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: to allegations of misconduct, and she's uncovered a number of 205 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: reasons why one of the UK's leading universities has lagged 206 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: behind its peers. Part of it, she says, is structural. 207 00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: So Oxford University is made up of more than forty 208 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 2: different colleges, and so if you're a student, you might 209 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: study at one particular college or another particular college, and 210 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 2: so if you are harrassed or assorted as a student, 211 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 2: you have to take that complaint in most cases to 212 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 2: your college rather than the central university. And that has 213 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 2: created lots and lots of problems for women who've tried 214 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 2: to hold their harassers to account. That's because these colleges 215 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:37,640 Speaker 2: are their own individual legal entities. There are information sharing 216 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 2: arrangements in place, but in practice people say it doesn't 217 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 2: seem to happen that way, and it creates a complicated, 218 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 2: fragmented system. 219 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: Catherine says. Another challenge is cultural. 220 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 2: So Oxford is a nine hundred odd year old institution. 221 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: People love the history and the traditions, the special class, 222 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: those people where to do exams. There's all sorts of 223 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: things which make Oxford Oxford, but certainly linked to that 224 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 2: are quite negative things. And those include a university that 225 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 2: can in some ways be unwilling to make changes that 226 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 2: other places, other parts of society, other universities maybe think 227 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,600 Speaker 2: are more appropriate and moving with the times. Now, Oxford 228 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 2: would probably dispute that, and of course it is at 229 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 2: the cutting edge in many, many different ways. But it 230 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 2: is a university where the vast majority of senior professors 231 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 2: are men. It also has a higher number than at 232 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 2: some of its peers of particularly famous male professors who 233 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 2: bring in lots and lots of grant funding. So Oxford 234 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 2: very explicitly has said to us that it rejects any 235 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 2: kind of suggestion that it puts people's reputation above other 236 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:07,640 Speaker 2: people's safety. But the experiences of people who have spoken 237 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 2: to us is certainly their feeling is that the reputation 238 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: of some of their alleged harassers has played into the 239 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 2: way Oxford has dealt with this. 240 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: In certain cases that surface during Catherine's reporting process, the 241 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: way Oxford leadership responded also contributed to a chilling effect. 242 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 2: So we spoke to a young woman who was studying 243 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 2: for a PhD at Balliol College, and she has described 244 00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 2: to us being sexually assaulted by a male student at 245 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: Bailliol College. She made a formal complaint about it, and 246 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 2: then she says the college dealt with the matter in 247 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: an incredibly unsupportive and in her view, unfair way. After that, 248 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 2: she talked to a news organization about what had happened 249 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 2: to her because she felt really upset and frustrated in 250 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 2: the light of that. Helen Gosch, who is the head 251 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 2: of Balliol College, she's a fairly well known person in 252 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 2: UK public life. She's received a damehood. She called a 253 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 2: meeting for students at which she challenged the young woman 254 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,119 Speaker 2: about her account of what had happened, and leaflets were 255 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 2: printed out the young woman has told us, which had 256 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 2: some details about her case on them, including some private 257 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 2: information such as when the alleged sexual assault had taken place. 258 00:17:32,680 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: Following a student backlash, Balliol appointed an external investigator who 259 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,680 Speaker 1: upheld some of the women's complaints. Balliol College told Bloomberg 260 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: in a statement that it takes its responsibilities seriously to 261 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: address and prevent harassment and has a rigorous set of 262 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: policies and procedures in place. It said it implemented all 263 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: the recommendations that were made in two independent reports it 264 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: commissioned following a harassment complaint by a student. So, after 265 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 1: doing all this reporting, what stands out about Oxford's process 266 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,919 Speaker 1: for handling these types of issues when compared to the 267 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: measures and processes that other UK universities have. 268 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 2: So Oxford has changed its measures in various ways over 269 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 2: the years, and in September even this year has introduced 270 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 2: a new policy for students which is clearer and easier 271 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 2: to use for people who want to bring sexual harassment 272 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 2: non academic misconduct complaints. And that seemed to be a 273 00:18:33,119 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 2: broadly positive thing. But at the same time, there are 274 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 2: ways in which the university probably is still quite out 275 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 2: of step with other universities, and they may have policies, 276 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 2: but it's really how those policies are implemented and how 277 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 2: when people come forward in highly vulnerable states, how the 278 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:54,959 Speaker 2: university actually deals with those people. 279 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: And Catherine's sources say there's more the university could do. 280 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 2: The reality is it's actually quite difficult for Oxford, any university, 281 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 2: any employer, to open the doors and give full disclosure 282 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 2: on an investigation, how it's going, what might happen to 283 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 2: a person who against whom discipline and reaction may be taken. 284 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:22,359 Speaker 2: That said, I think it comes back to this point 285 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 2: about Oxford being a leader, and really people have told 286 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 2: us that it should be a leader in this field too. 287 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 2: It really needs to send the message to some of 288 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 2: these senior men at the university that this kind of 289 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 2: behavior is completely and utterly unacceptable. They need to make 290 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 2: it clear that they are not going to tolerate it. 291 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:49,720 Speaker 1: On Thursday, in response to Catherine's investigation, the Member of 292 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: Parliament for Oxford Western Abingdon Leila Moran, said she would 293 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:58,400 Speaker 1: be following up with university leadership to understand what more 294 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: they can do to address this issue. This is the 295 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: Big Take from Bloomberg News. I'm Sarah Holder. The show 296 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: was hosted by Me, David Gera and Wan Ha. The 297 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: show is made by Aaron Edwards, David Fox, Eleanor Harrison Dengate, 298 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:23,240 Speaker 1: Patti hirsh Rachel Lewis, Krisky, Naomi Julia Press, Tracy Samuelson, 299 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: Naomi Shaven, Alex Hugiura, Julia Weaver, Yanyong and Taka Yasuzawa. 300 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: To get more from the Big Take and unlimited access 301 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: to all of Bloomberg dot Com, subscribe today at Bloomberg 302 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 1: dot Com Slash Podcast offer. Thanks for listening. We'll be 303 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 1: back on Monday.