WEBVTT - SYSK Selects: How do dogs perceive time? 0:00:01.040 --> 0:00:03.760 Hey, Palas, how you doing? Charles W Chuck Bryant Here 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:06.760 on a Saturday with my select pick for this week 0:00:06.960 --> 0:00:10.880 from September do thousand nine. One of our many many 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:13.680 episodes on dogs, and this is a good one, How 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:17.120 Did Dogs Perceive Time? Really really good stuff. Check it out. 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:24.279 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:33.080 Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:38.600 I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles Chuck Bryant. Chuck right, Yes, 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:41.519 nice Chuck. We'll get to that in a second. Do 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.960 it again. That's awesome. Chuck's barking because this is stuff 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:48.120 you should know. And this particular stuff you should know 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:52.880 is entitled how do Dogs Perceived Time? And I said 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:57.240 in dog language just then, I don't perceive time. That 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:00.440 is up for debate, my friend, up for vigorous debate. 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.560 All right, So Chuck, um, let me let me do 0:01:03.600 --> 0:01:06.160 a little intro here, a little lead in segue. Whatever 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:08.880 spoiled your parade? There? What do we call them these days? 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:15.240 What do we what segways? Lead In's introstro schke Um, Chuck, 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:22.080 about a year ago, well, a year ago this month, Paris, well, France, Paris, 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:27.800 France made history, legal history. So uh, they actually used 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:31.440 a dog as a witness in a criminal case. Did 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.200 they get the dog to like bark at someone? Wow? 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.240 I kid you not like an intruder at the very least. 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:40.319 And I hope I'm not a Bangladeshi newspaper here, um 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:44.080 because I found it, uh in the Daily Mail, which 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:46.319 is not known for satire, but it's all. It can 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:48.440 be known for poor reporting from time to time. So 0:01:48.480 --> 0:01:51.240 you may have egg on your face soon we'll find out. Um. 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:53.760 But there was a dog named Scooby that was brought 0:01:53.920 --> 0:02:00.600 into a doesn't it I should afford to this article? Um, 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.560 there is a dog named Scooby that was brought into 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:08.280 a murder case or a hearing to see if there 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.960 was enough evidence to try a man for murder for 0:02:12.080 --> 0:02:14.760 something that was ruled the suicide. And the dog barked 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:18.720 furiously at the alleged perpetrator and they gave him a 0:02:18.720 --> 0:02:21.600 Scooby snack. Yeah, so that was the last I heard. 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.240 It was from a year ago, but there was some 0:02:24.360 --> 0:02:28.480 concern over whether the dog's memory would serve it or 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:31.840 not because it had been two and a half years 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.720 since the incident. Okay, that makes sense, and that's kind 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:38.600 of key to how dogs may or may not perceive times. 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:41.320 The best I could come up with, that's thanks, so 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:46.280 um what that What that betrays is a sense by 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:50.519 at least the reporter and the courts in Paris that 0:02:50.960 --> 0:02:54.960 dogs have a memory, that they they If they have 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:59.600 a memory, then they should be able to perceive time. Right, Chuck, 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:04.000 let's talk about this. What is time? Kidding me? Well, 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:05.919 you know my whole deal with time, I've said it before. 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.400 What a little time is just abstract numbers on a 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:13.200 calendar and and hands on a watch, aren't time? Well yeah, no, 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:16.640 what you're talking about is the human construct of time. Yes, 0:03:16.880 --> 0:03:19.840 based on twenty four hours, which is all kind of 0:03:19.880 --> 0:03:23.000 arbitrary seven days in a week there, well, not necessarily 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:28.440 were Here's why. Uh, it was actually kind of ingenious 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:30.399 that we should come up with the twenty four hour 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:34.480 day because we have these things called circadian oscillators, yes, 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:39.360 which are the well they're the fluctuators in our circadian rhythm, 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:41.960 which is what makes us fall asleep at night, work 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:46.080 up in the morningperaure get hungry at certain times. Neural activity, right, 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:50.400 the neural activity and the hormones UM are reactions to 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:53.200 things like changes in temperature that are on a daily 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:58.280 basis UM, things like um, the changes in natural light 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:03.320 right right, So our our reactions to these are circadian oscillators. 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:05.560 And if you put them all together, like sleeping at 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:08.080 night and and um waking up in the morning, that's 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:13.600 our circadian rhythm. But the circadian clocks actually exist on 0:04:13.640 --> 0:04:16.799 about a twenty four hour period. That makes sense then. 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.240 So but like you said, days on the calendar and 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.280 all that, that's that is a human construct. Yeah, So 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.440 what we're trying to get to the bottom of is 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:28.000 whether or not dogs can perceive this not necessarily the 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:32.200 human construct of time, but of time in and of itself, 0:04:32.279 --> 0:04:36.880 which is essentially a past present in future exactly. And 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:39.279 I know that one thing that we will talk about, 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:41.520 and maybe we'll talk about right now is you have 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:44.680 three dogs? Do you have any dogs? I have two dogs? 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:48.039 What shut up? I have two dogs, and I'm actually 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.880 fostering two feral puppy rescues, which you know, so right now, 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:52.360 if you want to get rid of those two dogs, 0:04:52.360 --> 0:04:54.000 because we could get rid of them like that if 0:04:54.040 --> 0:04:56.600 we plug this on this UM on this podcast, we're 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:58.720 kind of picky about who we give them to. Okay, well, 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:00.640 how about this, if you're not a cre and you 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:04.520 love dogs and you live in the East Lake area, Atlanta, 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:06.240 to send us an email if you want one of 0:05:06.320 --> 0:05:09.400 Chuck's puppies. Very cute. Yeah, so, anyway, if your dogs 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:13.000 are anything like my dogs, they and actually my cats too, 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:16.520 they know when the food bell is going to ring. Sure, 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:19.120 actually they start. Emily calls it food abuse. They start 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:22.000 the food abuse typically about an hour and a half 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:26.200 before they typically get fed every afternoon and in the morning. 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:27.960 We feed them pretty much straight away in the morning, 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:29.960 so they know. They know then. But my dog Lucy 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:33.560 dude comes in the room and looks at you with 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:35.760 her head cocked, stamps on the floor with her feet 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:39.600 and goes m and I'm waiting her for her literally 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:43.880 to one day say feed me one day. I told 0:05:43.920 --> 0:05:45.680 him if she did that one day, I would be 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:49.320 surprised for about a second. So, Chuck, here is where 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.800 we reached the bone of contention. The sorry for that pun, 0:05:53.080 --> 0:05:56.800 I'm not Jonathan Stricklin. Your dogs do the same thing, though, right, Well, no, 0:05:56.960 --> 0:05:59.719 my my dogs are fed constantly. They always have food. 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:01.880 They for some reason, I'd lucked out, and they they 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:05.200 just eat eat whenever they want, whenever. I can't imagine that. 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:07.400 It's pretty cool, Like dogs eat their food like it's 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.480 the first time they've ever been fed before. My dogs 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:12.480 they're pretty laid back when it comes to stuff like that. 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:16.800 Are they fat? No? Really, No, they're they're healthier than 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:20.760 I am. Well, they're healthier than a lot of people 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:23.080 I know. No, they're very They regulate their food and 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:27.440 take on their own It's weird, but but I know 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:31.159 what you're talking about. So the question is this, do 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:36.800 your dogs no, based on past experience that food is 0:06:36.880 --> 0:06:40.840 coming at a certain time of day, not necessarily like 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.599 five thirty five pm, but say as far as the 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:49.400 dog's concerned, when sun is low and sky over there. 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:55.560 Ye know, they're they're like Italians playing Native Americans, right, 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:59.640 what you think, I'm dumbbell? So um? Or is it 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.960 a start kadiean oscillator? Well, that's the circadian oscillator. It 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:06.200 could be, yeah, it could be. What what that is 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:09.800 is you're they're using their memories of past experiences to 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:13.920 predict the future, which is episodic memory, which is our 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:18.640 construction of time. Or is this semantic memory, which is 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:22.560 totally different but related. Do you want me to go 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:25.760 into this because this is outside research, I have no choice. 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.840 Then semantic memory is alright, Chuck. Let's say that you 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.360 have brain damage to your phontel loane in fact, which 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:37.480 is where your episodic memory is h is located. That's 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:43.520 the region that controls episodic memory, which is learning from experience. Right. Um, 0:07:43.560 --> 0:07:48.520 you could conceivably learn how to play chess right, right, 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:54.000 but you won't remember where you learn how to play chess, right, 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.040 much like uh, they say a baby learned how to 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.880 walk and talk, but they don't remember that day you 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:01.880 taught me how to walk, right, They don't have to 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.920 relearn crawling or walking or taught on a day to 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:08.480 day basis, right, because they learned it. And that's semantic memory. 0:08:08.520 --> 0:08:11.920 That's like facts and rules and and and possibly motor 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.880 movements or whatever. Or you know, if I run into 0:08:14.920 --> 0:08:17.560 this wall, it's going to hurt my face because I'm crawling, 0:08:18.320 --> 0:08:21.600 But they don't remember, you know, somebody teaching them like, 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.000 come crawl to me that kind of thing, right, So yeah, 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:30.600 that's semantic memory. Episodic memory would be like, um, what 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.760 did you have for breakfast this morning? At a fruit smoothie? 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.680 You had a fruit smoothie. Remember what delight look like? 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:41.040 I remember what what smelled like. That is precisely episodic memory. 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:42.920 And uh, I should probably give a shout out at 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.240 t RS and tall, who I'm like just blatantly ripping 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.559 off right now. Um. The the chess example was one 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:54.000 of Zental's uh examples of semantic memory. And what you've 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:58.439 just said, um is almost word for word, Uh, an 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:02.400 example of episodic memory. You said, you know you remember 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:06.560 these other details, whereas had you said, um, I had 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:09.480 I had a smoothie this morning, I must have because 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:13.240 I have a smoothie. Right, that would be well, not 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:15.719 the burping part, but if you always had it, and 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:18.679 that'd be more like semantic memories. So we reached the 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:24.880 question do dogs perceived time or are these reactions that 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:29.160 appear like they're there keeping track of time some way, 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:33.200 maybe through a circadian oscillator, based on semantic memories. And 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:36.240 there's been a lot of studies that, not necessarily on dogs, 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:39.360 but on other animals. Right, Yeah, what's uh, what's this 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:43.960 crackpot's name Roberts, No, what's this guy's name Dr Roberts. Yeah, 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:45.960 I have to say I'm gonna take issue with Dr 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:51.559 robertson William Roberts. He's an animal cognition researcher right off 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:55.240 the bat. You're taking issue with that, not that part. Yeah. 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.719 He did some studies on pigeons and primates to name 0:09:58.760 --> 0:10:01.880 a couple, and long term in short term memory as 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:04.840 far as remembering a sequence that they would I guess 0:10:04.840 --> 0:10:07.360 the pigeons would peck it out and the primates would 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:10.480 tap it out and uh to get a reward. And 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:13.360 they found that they have pretty good short term memory 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:15.760 for this kind of thing, right, which is what that's 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.520 working memory, right, yes, but long term as reference memory, Yeah, 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:21.720 but as far as the reference goes, they couldn't remember 0:10:21.760 --> 0:10:23.520 it that well if there was if there was a 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:28.760 big break in between, right. Um. Roberts actually wrote a 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:33.680 very famous paper as far as animal cognition goes, where 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:37.040 he basically said that he concluded animals are stuck in time. 0:10:37.320 --> 0:10:39.120 And I just made air quotes for those of you 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.240 out there listening in podcast land, Um, and by stuck 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:45.720 in timing means that they they live exclusively in the present, 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:50.560 that they don't have the capacity for forming uh, long 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:54.400 term episodic memory. Episodic is the key word. It is 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:56.599 very much they because I know at home you're saying, no, 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.800 I taught my dog to sit when she was one. 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:01.680 That's not the same thing. That's what we're talking about 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:04.800 with the baby and learning how to walk, right, Um, 0:11:04.840 --> 0:11:08.959 but that's that's not There's a lot of examples out 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:12.760 there in nature that would kind of um, but lie 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:16.960 Dr Roberts idea that your animals or dogs are stuck 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:22.719 in time. Well, A good one is squirrels foraging food 0:11:22.760 --> 0:11:24.920 store for the winner and doing it year after year 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:29.920 after year. Um. I believe Roberts actually addressed that and says, 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:35.559 but they continue hoarding even when their stores inexplicably disappear, 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:38.600 which I assume some researchers went and stole squirrels nuts 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.480 and then uh studied them to see what they would do. 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:43.880 I don't understand that at all. I don't either. Seems 0:11:43.920 --> 0:11:46.559 like they would that would make them want to hoard. Yeah, 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:48.760 so I kind of have an issue with that one 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:51.800 a little bit. But it's possible. I'm not entirely seeing 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:54.040 that point all the way. I don't see the point. 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:56.680 I'm not quite sure what what he meant there. But um, 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:00.160 there's also one about the bananas, right, Chuck. The is 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.439 there are some primates that were given choices between more 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:06.840 or less bananas. Yeah, and predictably at first, if you 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:10.120 offered an ape one banana or two bananas, they're gonna 0:12:10.120 --> 0:12:12.360 take the two bananas. But they found that when they 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:17.280 started increasing the number of bananas, like ten compared to twenty, 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.480 they would just go for the tin bananas, they wouldn't 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:23.280 he and he thought this meant they can't. Uh, they 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:26.080 have no concept of the future, like maybe I should 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:29.040 take these bananas because I might be hungry tomorrow right now. 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:32.160 That's um that I think Roberts fails to take into 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:35.920 account social structure, right. Uh. We we know that we 0:12:36.000 --> 0:12:39.280 could use tim bananas for tomorrow, but we also have 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.760 things like um, preservation techniques or refrigeration available. That's what 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:46.120 I thought too. And if you go back in time, 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.680 just a few thousand years ago, um, two hunter gatherer 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.800 societies or even hunter gatherer societies that are around now, 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:55.440 they don't store food at all. They forage for what 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:59.040 they need right then, and that's what they eat. I 0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.360 would imagine that that would actually explain a lot of 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:06.280 the primate decisions. There's no real reason to their society 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:10.120 isn't set up on this idea that I need more 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:12.720 and more to protect myself in the future, exactly. I 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.840 don't know that that necessarily means that they don't have 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.559 any concept of the future. I think that there's all 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.640 these other explanations out there, right, and they may like one. 0:13:21.880 --> 0:13:23.360 I was when I read that. The first thing I 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:26.440 thought was, maybe they're not. They've never taken more than 0:13:26.480 --> 0:13:28.560 tin bananas in their life because they've never needed to, 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:31.240 so it doesn't even dawn on them that that should 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:33.720 be something they would do. Exactly. I guess what we're saying, 0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:35.679 both of us around the same page here. There are 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:38.440 other explanations, and I think one of the things I 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:41.520 took from this article was that, uh Roberts found it 0:13:41.520 --> 0:13:44.920 conclusive that animals are stuck in time by cherry picking 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:47.880 some uh some studies here, and we we kind of 0:13:47.920 --> 0:13:50.160 disagree with them. Yeah, there's a lot of other factors. 0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:52.079 I know that my dog Lucy is stuck in time 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:56.920 at five thirty pm every day because she's always asking 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:18.080 for the food. So I guess another problem. It's entirely possible. 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:21.240 Check that we're Our brains just aren't big enough to Uh, 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:25.480 they're not as big as Robert's brain. Um, did you 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.800 ever hear that? Like, goldfish have an eight second memory span? 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.120 I've never heard that, So I have a right you 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:35.520 have a goldfish and I do have a goldfish here? Yeah, Molly, 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:40.440 she's very cute. Its name Molly. I didn't know that. Interesting. Um, 0:14:40.480 --> 0:14:44.560 But having an episodic memory makes it almost impossible to 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:48.560 think about um not having one. So like, if a 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:51.120 goldfish does have a memory of eight seconds, does that 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.920 mean that every eight seconds all of its memories are purged, 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:57.880 like getting rid of the browser history in your computer? Um? 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.800 Or as new experiences come into the present, are older 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.280 ones pushed out after they hit this eight second maturity level? 0:15:05.920 --> 0:15:08.120 And how how do they test that on a goldfish? Anyway? 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:14.400 Perfect chuck, perfect segue. Here's the biggest problem. Robert's position 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:19.280 is almost inherently species ist. You're familiar with this term, Yeah, 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:21.520 this is a legitimate term. I'm not making this up. 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:25.200 Animals have no souls. Animals don't have souls. It's impossible 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.720 for an like a dog to be happy because that's 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:32.480 a secondary emotion and are self aware enough. There's a 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:36.760 competing explanation for all of this, um. Species ists tend 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:41.120 to rely very strictly or remain very strictly within the 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:44.920 structure um provided by the scientific method and all his 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:47.280 studies here, he probably came out from that frame of mind. 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:50.640 Sure right, UM. But there's another way of looking at it, 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:53.280 and that is that humans simply haven't come up with 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:57.640 tests that are clever enough to get definitive proof that 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:02.280 an animal can experience happiness, or can or is aware 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:04.680 of time, the future, of the past, that kind of thing. 0:16:05.040 --> 0:16:08.200 You can take that way too far, like after you know, 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.720 test after test after test that proves the opposite, you 0:16:11.760 --> 0:16:14.360 could still conceivably say, well, there's a test out there 0:16:14.400 --> 0:16:16.800 that that we haven't come up with you proves that 0:16:16.840 --> 0:16:19.880 they can. Um. But I think that the testing that 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:24.000 has been done is very much below that threshold so far. 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:28.280 I don't think we have a clue, um, what we 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:31.200 animals are capable of as far as consciousness goes, because 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:33.920 we have such a loose grasp on our own consciousness. Sure, 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:36.680 and we can't uh certainly can't delve into an animal's 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:38.640 brain and see what they think and they can't tell 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:41.200 us anything. I guarantee you one thing. I bet you 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:45.840 Dr Roberts is not a dog owner. Agreed. Agreed, because 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:48.080 you have dogs, dude, and I guarantee you we're going 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.400 to get tons of mail from people saying, are you kidding? 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.800 My dog displays emotion every day? And you know, I 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.200 guess Caesar that the dog whisper might say, you know 0:16:57.280 --> 0:17:00.480 that's you're putting your human construct on the dogs. From 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:04.560 my mind, yeah, anthrow anthropomorphizing. Yeah, I don't know, man, 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:09.000 my dog is they're both pretty emotional. Well, yeah, Anthropomorphizing 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:13.679 is the go to ammunition for species ists. And I 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.560 don't want, I don't mean to say that anybody who's saying, like, no, 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.959 animals can't be happy because it's secondary emotion and they 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.960 lack that sense of self awareness that required to experience this, 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:27.400 uh secondary emotion is a species ist. But the too 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:29.679 often go hand in hand. And it's really interesting that 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:34.120 there's a line drawn right now between people who think 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:38.000 animals don't have a soul and people who think animals 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.080 can be happy and all of the implications that come 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:43.560 with that. Jerry, I bet you think your dog is 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.439 a soul right, Jerry saying yeah, just to give the 0:17:46.440 --> 0:18:07.080 sweetest face and nodded yes, yes. So, um, I feel 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:09.600 like Chuck and I just opened a big old canned worms. 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:12.560 So we'll see how this plays out in the emails, right, 0:18:13.280 --> 0:18:15.600 if you want to read more about dogs perceiving time 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:19.840 to answer the question, according to Roberts, no, dogs don't 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:23.399 perceive time times a human construct consisting of a past, present, 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:26.360 in future and dogs pretty much living the present. Chuck 0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:29.199 and I don't necessarily agree with that one. Uh, you 0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.639 can go on and type in dogs perceived time in 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.720 the handy search bar at how stuff works dot com. 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:37.919 Since I just said that, it means it's time for 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:45.280 a whole mess of listener mail. You're right, Josh, this 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.520 is uh. We're just gonna call this Muppet mail, and 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:50.879 we are gonna go on a little longer than usual 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:54.199 with our mail because the Muppet podcast, I think we 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:58.360 will all agree, um, was sort of a c change episode, 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:00.960 and plus we just want to see how how long 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:03.720 this background music actually goes for I know, I mean, 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.840 we we literally got better response from the Muppet Show 0:19:06.880 --> 0:19:11.200 episode than anything we've ever done. I would say, wouldn't you. Yeah, 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:15.480 the Henson company twittered about it. Yeah, Heather Henson, we 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.360 should say our colleague and friend, Jonathan Strickland of tex 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:23.920 Staff his uh sister sister friends with Heather Henson, and 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.719 it went viral thanks to him. Yeah, that's awesome. So 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.760 we got great response. It's clear that everyone loves the 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.160 Muppets and uh so I wanted to go just through 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:34.399 a few of these because I didn't want to just 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:38.360 do one um quickly before we start, and we never 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.040 do this, but a guy sent me an email and 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.040 I kind of touched a chord with me. So I 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.240 want to quickly give a shout out for for Joe 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:51.159 to Beth in Ellwood, Indiana, and Joe just wants to 0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:55.640 say that he thinks that you are a pretty cool chick. Beth, Chuck, 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.359 are you playing matchmaker? Is that why you're wearing nothing 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:00.760 but a diaper and you have those wing I'm not saying, 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:04.040 but Beth and Elwood, Joe, Joe thinks your cool chicken. 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:06.639 So the week because she actually sent us a alien 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:09.640 hand syndrome video which rocked cool. That's good. I'll show 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.240 it to you quick. A couple of things that we 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:15.439 didn't mention in corrections First of all, Um, I mistakenly 0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:20.359 referred to the Children's Television Workshop as the Children's Television Network, 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:22.840 So I goove that one. You're thinking of home shopping 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:27.800 that kids. We did not mention every Muppet movie. We 0:20:27.840 --> 0:20:31.520 did not mention every Muppet venture because no want, I 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:33.600 want to late on this. We did that on purpose. 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:36.359 First of all, we mentioned the three that were in 0:20:36.400 --> 0:20:40.720 theatrical Elite release directed by Jim Henson. Yes, and by 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:44.480 first of all, I mean that's it right right. So 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:46.240 a lot of people said, how could you not mention 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:49.160 Muppets Christmas Carol? And we wanted to mention everything, but 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:52.520 we we would have been sitting here reading things all 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:56.159 day long about the Dark Crystal and other Muppet ventures, 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:58.040 so we chose to only do the Henson ones. Would 0:20:58.040 --> 0:21:01.399 I have to say Dark Crystal keeps me out? And 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:03.160 that was Hinton too, because I know people gonna write 0:21:03.160 --> 0:21:05.720 and say that was Hinson, but get over it. Uh. 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:07.359 We had a gun and Peter wrote in and he 0:21:07.400 --> 0:21:11.320 told us about the Muppet Whatnot Workshop? Yeah, and um 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:17.080 and uh, and you can go to New York City 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:18.679 and you could do it online. But I looked and 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.359 it's down right now. But it's just around Christmas time 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:23.879 or the holidays. No, they got bought out by Toys 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:25.399 r Us. I think. So that's down right now. But 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:26.919 you can still go to New York. You can go 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:28.920 to the Muppet Workshop and you can build your own 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.679 whatnot at Goldman says it costs about a hundred bucks. 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:34.840 And he sent me a picture of he and his 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:37.639 little cute daughter with her Muppet whatnot. So you want 0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:40.800 to thank Peter for that. And actually I'm going on 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.840 and on, but Peter had one of the big food 0:21:43.880 --> 0:21:46.280 and choo mustaches like me, Yeah, I'll tell you about this. 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:49.760 And I said, uh, very cool, Peter, thanks for sending this. 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:51.320 I said, it looks like you picked up a mustache 0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:53.800 while you were there. And he wrote back and said, no, 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:57.440 I got that at the Sam Elliott. Uh Sam Elliott 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:00.280 Supply Center down the street or something like that. Peter's 0:22:00.280 --> 0:22:04.520 of pack a picnic supper. Um. So that is all 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:08.080 for the corrections. Now we have a few emails. Um, 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:10.160 Josh and Chuck it just listen to how Muppets worked. 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:12.160 I was excited to hear you talk about it because 0:22:12.200 --> 0:22:14.719 you mentioned the costume designer from Miss Piggie who happens 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:18.520 to be my aunt Callista. Oh wow she uh. If 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:20.200 you look up the Muppet Movie you can see her 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.800 in the costume and wardrobe department on IMDb. She worked 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:25.840 closely with Henson, and I've actually seen a picture of 0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:29.520 her with Jim Henson setting up some Muppets and Emmett 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:32.720 Honor's jug Bane Christmas. She left the Muppets, I think 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:34.560 when Jim Henson died, but we still see her once 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:38.000 a year. That's from Sam and Josh is in fact 0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:42.440 eating a Reese's cup. Uh onto the next one. Hi, guys, 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:45.160 I love your recent podcast. I was listening and thought 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:48.080 I would mention that Jim Henson studied muppetology at University 0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:50.760 of Maryland. I know this because I went to school 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:55.600 there and there as a Jim Hinson studies program, and 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:58.000 it is our claim to fame. UM. I didn't know 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:00.239 he went to my school until I went there. And 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:04.320 there's actually a little a bench statue. It's a bench 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:06.760 with Henson sitting on it and Kerment sitting on the 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:08.480