Speaker 1: There's such a transformation that happens when people stop beating
Speaker 1: themselves up for falling into the same potholes over and
Speaker 1: over again. Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time,
Speaker 1: great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have,
Speaker 1: quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think ring true. And yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good Wolfe thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Heather
Speaker 1: have Relesque. Heather is the author of the memoir Disaster Preparedness.
Speaker 1: She has also written for New York Magazine, The New
Speaker 1: York Times, Book Review, The Los Angeles Times, The New Yorker, NPRS,
Speaker 1: All Things Considered, and several anthologies. She was a TV
Speaker 1: critic at Salon for seven years. Her new book is
Speaker 1: How to Be a Person in the World, Ask Polly's
Speaker 1: Guide through the Paradoxes of Modern Life. If you value
Speaker 1: the content we put out each week, then we need
Speaker 1: your help. As the show has grown, so have our
Speaker 1: expenses and time commitment. Go to one you feed dot
Speaker 1: net slash Support and make a monthly donation. Our goal
Speaker 1: is to get to five percent of our listeners supporting
Speaker 1: the show. Please be part of the five percent that
Speaker 1: make contribution and allow us to keep putting out these
Speaker 1: interviews and ideas. We really need your help to make
Speaker 1: the show sustainable and long lasting. Again, that's one you
Speaker 1: Feed dot net slash Support. Thank you in advance for
Speaker 1: your help. And here's the interview with Heather Haveverrlesski. Hi, Heather,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Hi, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to be here. I'm very happy to
Speaker 1: have you. Your book is called How to Be a
Speaker 1: Person in the World, Ask Polly's Guide through the Paradoxes
Speaker 1: of Modern Life. It's basically, you write an advice column, right.
Speaker 1: I write an advice column for New York magazines The Cut,
Speaker 1: and it comes out every week. It's called Ask Polly.
Speaker 1: Advice columns are a strange format, but the book is
Speaker 1: basically we didn't really want to stray from what was
Speaker 1: working with the advice column. Um, so it's about new material,
Speaker 1: new letters and new responses, and then about old class
Speaker 1: six from the column. The column has been running since twenty,
Speaker 1: so it's been around for about five years. Well, it
Speaker 1: is wonderful. The column is wonderful, and the book is wonderful.
Speaker 1: So many advice columns are, I mean, they're just they
Speaker 1: seem kind of trite to me, but yours is, it's
Speaker 1: incredibly good. The writing is is really wonderful, and just
Speaker 1: the overall spirit and approach I just really love. So
Speaker 1: we'll get to that in a minute. But let's start
Speaker 1: like we usually do with the parable. There's a grandmother
Speaker 1: who's talking with her granddaughter and she says, in life,
Speaker 1: there are two wolves inside of us that are always
Speaker 1: at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 1: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is
Speaker 1: a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
Speaker 1: and fear. And the granddaughter stops and she thinks about
Speaker 1: it for a second, looks up at her grandmother, and
Speaker 1: she said, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says,
Speaker 1: the one you feed. So I'd like to start off
Speaker 1: by asking you what that parable means to you in
Speaker 1: your life and in the work that you do. Well.
Speaker 1: I love the parable and I think that it's it's
Speaker 1: really interesting because it actually makes me feel a little
Speaker 1: bit conflicted to hear this parable. UM. On the one hand,
Speaker 1: I feel like I go back to a position of
Speaker 1: telling people to feed the good things inside themselves and
Speaker 1: to encourage their belief in humanity and their belief in
Speaker 1: other people to have compassion for themselves and thereby foster
Speaker 1: compassion for other people in connection with other people, which
Speaker 1: I think. I mean, one of the things that sort
Speaker 1: of works about my column is the voice of the
Speaker 1: column is kind of a little bit harsh, and it
Speaker 1: can be a little bit caustic at times, but I
Speaker 1: always try to lead with empathy. But a lot of
Speaker 1: the work that I feel like a lot of people
Speaker 1: need to do in their lives in order to be
Speaker 1: happier UM within their own lives, UM is to connect
Speaker 1: with other people and to see that everyone has weaknesses,
Speaker 1: everyone is vulnerable, and even people who seem to be
Speaker 1: coming at you with a lot of anger hatred. They
Speaker 1: actually are in need of compassion and connection if you
Speaker 1: can find that in your heart. So that's one side
Speaker 1: of the parable. For me, it makes perfect sense in
Speaker 1: just a very literal way, like you don't encourage within
Speaker 1: yourself greed and hatred. You try to find the parts
Speaker 1: of yourself that are full of love and positivity and
Speaker 1: that are interested in connection. But on the other hand, creatively, lately,
Speaker 1: I'm in this phase kind of like a bad wolf phase,
Speaker 1: i'd say, where I was a little blocked earlier this
Speaker 1: year and I'm writing a new book, and I think
Speaker 1: partially um due to political reasons. Things were frustrating to
Speaker 1: me and depressing to me, and so I was looking
Speaker 1: for some way to work through this. And I think
Speaker 1: that in some ways I would argue that if you
Speaker 1: ignore the bad wolf, you can be shut down and
Speaker 1: kind of corked up and blocked. Uh, if you don't
Speaker 1: acknowledge the bad wolf existence. So you're walking the line
Speaker 1: between you feed the good wolf, but you actually have
Speaker 1: to see and recognize and not blame yourself for the
Speaker 1: things that the bad wolf brings into your life. Does
Speaker 1: that make any sense? At all. I don't know a
Speaker 1: little bit, yeh know. It's one of the things I
Speaker 1: love about the Parable. There's there's nothing about starving the
Speaker 1: bad wolf, for putting him in a cage or any
Speaker 1: of that stuff, right, It's just like, look, you just
Speaker 1: got to give a little bit more focus to this
Speaker 1: one over here. And I think it. I like the
Speaker 1: Parable because I think it it normalizes like we all
Speaker 1: have these drives and desires that are not our best
Speaker 1: self and sometimes those are there, and again, you don't
Speaker 1: have to kill those, just try and be a little
Speaker 1: bit better. And I love that about your column. I
Speaker 1: think you use the word, you know, vulnerable, and I
Speaker 1: love that you sort of normalize that life is difficult
Speaker 1: for people, not just for the people you're writing about,
Speaker 1: for the people around them. And I just think there's
Speaker 1: so much help in understanding that life is challenging and
Speaker 1: we're supposed to be struggling in a lot of cases,
Speaker 1: and that what we see in the culture around us
Speaker 1: is just perfection and none of us feel that way.
Speaker 1: And that's one of the big things I really loved
Speaker 1: about your column. One thing that I feel like I've
Speaker 1: struggled with all my life is this sort of overachievers mentality.
Speaker 1: It didn't mean that I was necessarily an overachiever. Um.
Speaker 1: I have been an underachiever at times in my life.
Speaker 1: But I have this kind of perfectionist thing, and I
Speaker 1: think that I took the cultures. You know, our culture,
Speaker 1: UH is very focused on self improvement and living your
Speaker 1: best life and becoming better and better and better to
Speaker 1: infinity and beyond. And that's something that the more. On
Speaker 1: the one hand, again, the as I'm writing an advice column,
Speaker 1: I naturally pushed people to try to improve themselves and
Speaker 1: look at themselves closely, and and I identify the things
Speaker 1: that are standing in their way or that might be
Speaker 1: seen as not functioning well or pushing people away from them,
Speaker 1: things that drag them down. Um. But on the other hand,
Speaker 1: there's this feeling I think that that I had this
Speaker 1: sort of rebirth I had once I realized that the
Speaker 1: moment that I could look at my flaws and recognize
Speaker 1: them as the flaws of humanity rather than the flaws
Speaker 1: that just happened to be trapped inside of me. I'm
Speaker 1: personally horribly bad, and the difference between me and the
Speaker 1: rest of the world is I'm messed up and the
Speaker 1: rest of the world is good, and I haven't learned
Speaker 1: how to get there yet. I think that when you
Speaker 1: finally realize, oh, I do have hatred and greed inside
Speaker 1: of me, you know, I can be incredibly petty and
Speaker 1: insecure at times. It doesn't mean that you feed those things,
Speaker 1: as the parable reflects, It just means that you accept
Speaker 1: to some extent that you have a lot of darkness
Speaker 1: and a lot of turmoil on board, and without accepting that,
Speaker 1: you're kind of in a constant state of misery because
Speaker 1: you can't completely, no matter how happy you are, tamp
Speaker 1: that down, and you can't be become better and better
Speaker 1: and better to infinity and beyond. In fact, you can't
Speaker 1: improve forever. And in fact, if you have that expectation,
Speaker 1: as our culture sort of makes us have that expectation
Speaker 1: often of ourselves, you find yourself disappointed a lot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think you're really getting at one of what
Speaker 1: I think is the central themes that runs through this
Speaker 1: show over and over, which is that paradox of well,
Speaker 1: I want to be better, I want to do better,
Speaker 1: and I need to accept myself as I am where
Speaker 1: I am, with my life the way it is, and
Speaker 1: how do you do both of those things, because it
Speaker 1: really is a both. I think either one of those
Speaker 1: unchecked is unhealthy. Yeah, I mean, I think you go
Speaker 1: through stages of noticing that you're not making forward progress
Speaker 1: and noticing that you need a push to. Like I mean,
Speaker 1: for me, I'm a parent. I have two kids. They're
Speaker 1: ten and eight years old, their two daughters, uh, and
Speaker 1: I also have a stepson who's about one. And lately
Speaker 1: I'm noticing I worked against the whole mom thing taking
Speaker 1: over my entire life so strenuously that I realized that
Speaker 1: I actually, and this is gonna sound terrible, but so
Speaker 1: zealously guard my professional life that I haven't really let
Speaker 1: my kids in as much as I could, if that
Speaker 1: makes any sense. And so now I'm in this phase
Speaker 1: of you know, it's not it's not frightening to be
Speaker 1: a mother, Heather, just hang out with your kids, you know.
Speaker 1: I was always concerned that I would apply my overachievering
Speaker 1: nature to motherhood and be trying to be too much
Speaker 1: of a mother all the time, have hovered too much,
Speaker 1: So I've kind of done the opposite. And now I
Speaker 1: realized that, you know, my kids are they talk, and
Speaker 1: they're smart and they're interesting and they need someone to
Speaker 1: engage with them a lot of time. You know, they
Speaker 1: need that, they need my time and attention. UM, And
Speaker 1: I need them too. I need to um show up
Speaker 1: and I'm kind of losing the thread. You can cut this,
Speaker 1: But so you realize at different points in your life
Speaker 1: what maybe you need to adjust, and sometimes you need
Speaker 1: to to say, wow, I need a kick, I need
Speaker 1: to do better. I need to try harder. Like I've
Speaker 1: forgiven myself for being the not good enough mother, Like
Speaker 1: I will never really be the perfect mother no one
Speaker 1: really can, um, and maybe I will never be even
Speaker 1: an amazing mother, a great mother like we all really
Speaker 1: want to be. But I need to try a little
Speaker 1: harder to be a better mother, nonetheless, And I have
Speaker 1: to recognize that, as much as I'm uncomfortable with that pressure. UM,
Speaker 1: I'm at a point in my life where I actually
Speaker 1: have to try harder at that. With my writing, I've
Speaker 1: always pushed myself a lot, and there are times when
Speaker 1: I have to say, you know what, you have kept
Speaker 1: up a pace of writing that is so strenuous, and
Speaker 1: you have to back off and relax a little bit.
Speaker 1: You can't keep up this pace forever. I think this
Speaker 1: has been a year that my mind and body have said, no,
Speaker 1: we're not gonna work that hard work. Done with that,
Speaker 1: you know, you're going to have to live a different
Speaker 1: kind of life. So part of the challenge is just
Speaker 1: being in touch with what life is giving you on
Speaker 1: any given day. And it changes constantly. Yeah, it does.
Speaker 1: I think that's one of the wonderful and confounding if
Speaker 1: if you don't let it be as it is things
Speaker 1: about life and is that things that worked for you
Speaker 1: last week, last month, last year are no longer. They
Speaker 1: don't work, they're not appropriate in the same way. It's
Speaker 1: you know, it's never done. We're always evolving, and that's
Speaker 1: the wonderful thing. But it can also be if you're
Speaker 1: if you're one of those people that's looking for like
Speaker 1: when is it done? The bad news is never. That's
Speaker 1: another kind of myth that our culture embraces. There's a
Speaker 1: kind of feeling that and this is a seductive thing
Speaker 1: to sell to people, the idea that you you work
Speaker 1: really hard and then you take a vacation and everything
Speaker 1: is amazing and it's just RESTful and beautiful. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's hard not to for me not to be fixated
Speaker 1: on those kinds of endpoint visions. You know, it's sort
Speaker 1: of like imagine that experience and just being rich or
Speaker 1: being successful where you're you're never like trying to be more.
Speaker 1: Um And actually a big focus of my new book
Speaker 1: is is kind of I mean, I'm struggling with it.
Speaker 1: It's not done yet, so I don't even know. But
Speaker 1: but but a part of what I'm trying to write
Speaker 1: about is achieving the kind of the the ultimate feeling
Speaker 1: of and I say the ultimate kind of ironically here
Speaker 1: because to me, the big challenges finding a place where
Speaker 1: it's enough, where what you already have is enough and
Speaker 1: there isn't and you reckon, guys, the divinity of the
Speaker 1: current moment instead of always focusing on where you're gonna
Speaker 1: land someday. That is probably the other big you know,
Speaker 1: if I had said there were two themes in in
Speaker 1: the show that like and there are the themes of
Speaker 1: the show because I'm kind of always wrestling with them
Speaker 1: is my own personal questions is exactly that too. Like,
Speaker 1: I believe that there's some degree of striving and ambition
Speaker 1: and the desire to grow and change that's that's innate
Speaker 1: in us, in humans, I think it's part of who
Speaker 1: we are. And at the same time, I believe exactly
Speaker 1: like you said, there's got to be a point where
Speaker 1: you know there's enough. How do you be a person
Speaker 1: who's growing and changing and how do you also be
Speaker 1: happy with the moment right where it is. And we
Speaker 1: had a guest on recently the episode came out and
Speaker 1: he had a question that I just loved, and he
Speaker 1: he said he was talking about that future minded mentality
Speaker 1: and he's like, well, one of the things to do
Speaker 1: to get out of that is when you sort of
Speaker 1: envision like okay, well when I get to there is
Speaker 1: to kind of ask yourself and then what and really
Speaker 1: play through, like what's what's that really going to be like?
Speaker 1: And tragedies in the news are a terrible thing, but
Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't too long ago that we heard
Speaker 1: about Chris Cornell, the singer for Sound Garden, you know,
Speaker 1: commit suicide. Right, And if we ever need the idea
Speaker 1: that being beautiful and rich and famous is what we need,
Speaker 1: that's where our happiness is. It's people like him that
Speaker 1: you go, no, it doesn't work. He's he's incredibly handsome,
Speaker 1: incredibly successful, I mean, all those things and yet the
Speaker 1: ultimate misery, you know, And so that for me is
Speaker 1: helpful when I start looking at that, Well, if I
Speaker 1: just had you know, X or Y, I look at
Speaker 1: that or Robin Williams or other people and you just go, look, boy,
Speaker 1: that stuff doesn't do it. I don't know that much
Speaker 1: about him, but I side to my husband, I said, God,
Speaker 1: it must have been really. You know, first of all,
Speaker 1: there's obviously something about that culture, you know, that kind
Speaker 1: of rock and roll culture that teaches you how to
Speaker 1: thrive in some ways and and other ways kind of
Speaker 1: eats you alive. There's something about being famous at a
Speaker 1: really young age, being gorgeous, you know, having everything you've
Speaker 1: ever wanted at a young age can actually be horribly
Speaker 1: difficult over time, as kind of ridiculously privileges. That sounds. Um,
Speaker 1: not that I had that, but UM, I just I
Speaker 1: think that when you get older and you pick up
Speaker 1: these questions often, um, you know that something good is
Speaker 1: happening when things start to shift and you start to
Speaker 1: see people who have a lot on the surface as
Speaker 1: almost being in danger more than people who just are
Speaker 1: living regular, ordinary lives that most people would consider boring.
Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to put this stuff into words sometimes,
Speaker 1: But I feel like my sense of what a beautiful
Speaker 1: life is has shifted so dramatically in the past few years. UM.
Speaker 1: And it's nice because it's kind of more internal in
Speaker 1: some ways. It's really about how are you, um processing
Speaker 1: your life and how are you taking in what's happening
Speaker 1: around you. And it's almost like you meet people who
Speaker 1: you can tell are really present and take in what
Speaker 1: they have and enjoy it and savor it and know
Speaker 1: how to show up and savor things. Seeing people who
Speaker 1: can show up that it becomes a form of luxury
Speaker 1: to you. You know, when you see that emotion, you say, now,
Speaker 1: that looks like vacation, you know, like that like true,
Speaker 1: you know, meditative, peaceful, happy living um. And it I mean,
Speaker 1: it's easy to be cynical about it because when you're younger,
Speaker 1: you see people like that and you say, God, what's
Speaker 1: wrong with that hippie? You know, like you don't you
Speaker 1: don't quite process it the same way. But I think
Speaker 1: that it really is that constant balancing between am I
Speaker 1: being too easy on myself or too hard on myself?
Speaker 1: Do I need a little push here? Am I just
Speaker 1: being lazy? Or am I trying too hard to fix
Speaker 1: some thing that you know. I mean, this is another
Speaker 1: thing figuring out which things in your life actually can't
Speaker 1: be fixed should it be fixed, and your energy to
Speaker 1: fix them is dysfunctional energy. You're just you're just doing
Speaker 1: something you've always done. I'll fix it, I'll fix it,
Speaker 1: I'll fix it. Um. It's interesting to actually identify the
Speaker 1: things that fall into that category. Sometimes there are parts
Speaker 1: of your career, you know, that are just wow, this
Speaker 1: part of my career is kind of just a compulsive
Speaker 1: I want to pat on the head and I want
Speaker 1: to be a good student thing. Um. And it's not
Speaker 1: actually felt or driven by anything inside of me. Not
Speaker 1: like everything is just a you know, uh Dionysian fast
Speaker 1: of my My feelings guide everything I do. Um, But
Speaker 1: I think, what actually brings me joy or what brings
Speaker 1: me satisfaction in my day? And how can I make
Speaker 1: my day more satisfying for me and of course for
Speaker 1: the people around me and also for the wider world.
Speaker 1: How why you know? Because once, I mean, that's really
Speaker 1: another layer of luxury, right, because once you actually have
Speaker 1: the capacity to say, I don't just care about the
Speaker 1: people around me, I have to find some way to
Speaker 1: serve humanity before I'm gone, Because if I can't do that,
Speaker 1: what what real purpose do I have? Is my whole
Speaker 1: goal in life? Just to I'm going to arrive at
Speaker 1: that luxury place and be that you know, rock star
Speaker 1: whose life is beautiful, and then I'll be done. And
Speaker 1: and like you said, what comes after that? Hey, everyone,
Speaker 1: before you hit that thirty second forward button. A quick discussion.
Speaker 1: A long time ago, I went through a very difficult
Speaker 1: period and the book When Things Fall part by Pemma
Speaker 1: Children was so important to me during that period that
Speaker 1: to this day, I still give that book to people
Speaker 1: when they're going through a difficult time. I've heard from
Speaker 1: a lot of you that this show has been a
Speaker 1: big help as you've gone through difficult times. And a
Speaker 1: way for you to give this show to other people
Speaker 1: who are going through difficult times is to be a supporter.
Speaker 1: You can go to one you feed dot net slash
Speaker 1: support and make a monthly contribution two dollars, five dollars,
Speaker 1: any amount helps. You will get some great gifts if
Speaker 1: you do. But in addition, and more importantly, you get
Speaker 1: the satisfaction of knowing that you are passing on something
Speaker 1: that has been important and useful to you to other people.
Speaker 1: You're making sure that the show goes on, that all
Speaker 1: episodes are available for free, and that we continue to
Speaker 1: put out the content that we do that has helped
Speaker 1: you and many other people. So go to one you
Speaker 1: feed dot net slash support now and make a contribution
Speaker 1: and you are able to keep the show for yourself
Speaker 1: and as a gift to other people. Thanks so much,
Speaker 1: as always for your support, and now back to the
Speaker 1: interview with Heather have her Leski. I've always been a
Speaker 1: fan of the Serenity prayer, right because I came up
Speaker 1: in a recovery culture, because I was the drug addic
Speaker 1: at a pretty early age, and a lot of what
Speaker 1: I learned in that culture has kind of, I think,
Speaker 1: for me, has sort of faded away. But that seems
Speaker 1: like the penultimate point of wisdom of like what can
Speaker 1: I change and what can I And I always remember
Speaker 1: we had a guest on very early on, a guy
Speaker 1: named Andrew Solomon, who's a wonderful writer. He wrote The
Speaker 1: Noonday Demon, and he wrote a book called Far from
Speaker 1: the Tree about children who have what we might call
Speaker 1: disabilities and also the gifts that that brings them, and
Speaker 1: and he he was talking about something and I was
Speaker 1: really struck by this. He was saying, you know the
Speaker 1: people who have children where you just know, like this
Speaker 1: is the way they're gonna be, and you just go
Speaker 1: about accepting them the way they are. And then there's
Speaker 1: other cases where it's very clear that you can improve
Speaker 1: the situation and you should. He's like, the torture is
Speaker 1: the NBA tween state. It's like, well, yeah, maybe I
Speaker 1: could make it better. I mean, I hear that this
Speaker 1: would help, and I hear that that would help, but
Speaker 1: maybe I should just accept where I'm at. So for
Speaker 1: those parents, it's so hard, and I think that just
Speaker 1: applies to our lives in general. It's very easy when
Speaker 1: we can sort of see, oh, there's nothing I'm going
Speaker 1: to do about that. And in my case, I actually
Speaker 1: consider it an accomplishment that not only do I know that,
Speaker 1: in certain cases, I actually stopped doing it even when
Speaker 1: I know it. So I think there's something to be
Speaker 1: said for even getting to that point. But then to
Speaker 1: get into the subtler pieces of is there really anything
Speaker 1: I can do here or not? And maybe I can,
Speaker 1: and is the you know that somebody said recently, I
Speaker 1: don't know if I like this phrase or not. But
Speaker 1: you know, is the juice worth the squeeze? Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: It's funny because as you encounter less of the old
Speaker 1: problems that you used to have, you also, even as
Speaker 1: you're kind of trying to make yourself a more balanced,
Speaker 1: open person, sometimes create problems for yourself from that process.
Speaker 1: And I kind of think what you're talking about is
Speaker 1: sort of I can walk myself into a space forgiving
Speaker 1: myself for my failings and forgiving other people for their failings,
Speaker 1: and then I feel good and I feel like God,
Speaker 1: we're all just muddling through and it's fine and there's
Speaker 1: no reason for any strife. You know, you just have
Speaker 1: to shower your compassion on others and have them meet you, um,
Speaker 1: and then to fix it. Part of you will say,
Speaker 1: you know, I could fix all of these damaged relationships.
Speaker 1: All I have to do is pick up the phone
Speaker 1: and give you know, a few people call and say
Speaker 1: you know what, I love you. I just want you
Speaker 1: to know, and there's no reason we shouldn't be able
Speaker 1: to work this out. That's not really how it works.
Speaker 1: And also you can be tempted to call you know,
Speaker 1: it's like you're not thinking of the person that it was.
Speaker 1: It wasn't that problem at to begin with. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think there's a there's a kind of sensitive, locked in,
Speaker 1: disordered person, uh it. I mean I consider myself sort
Speaker 1: of a former addict in my own way because I
Speaker 1: relate to a lot of the personality issues that addicts have,
Speaker 1: and I think there's a kind of person that's sort
Speaker 1: of it's just hard not to touch the same flame
Speaker 1: over and over again. And even as you grow, you know,
Speaker 1: enlightened and better, you come back and you say, now
Speaker 1: that I'm more Jesus like, I can touch the flame.
Speaker 1: And the answer is no, you actually still can't. You're
Speaker 1: not going to change that. And not only that, but
Speaker 1: it doesn't serve you to think about the flame at all.
Speaker 1: You can analyze every layer of you know, what do
Speaker 1: we need and what don't we need? Um, But there
Speaker 1: are certain pockets of you know, the puzzle, let's say,
Speaker 1: the corners of the puzzle that set off things inside
Speaker 1: of you that are dysfunctional as a person. You know,
Speaker 1: and you kind of know when you're in there because
Speaker 1: you're trying to you know, I'm gonna wriggle through this.
Speaker 1: It's like working on a Rubik's cube as the world ends. Um.
Speaker 1: And on one hand, you can get a lot of
Speaker 1: professional satisfaction and a lot of creative enjoyment out of
Speaker 1: solving those kinds of puzzles, the things that you know,
Speaker 1: I love writing about the things that make me angry,
Speaker 1: the things that make me feel shame. I figured out
Speaker 1: when I was blocked with my book earlier this year
Speaker 1: that I had to go back to the places that
Speaker 1: really the things that really bothered me. I needed to
Speaker 1: know what was bothering me in order to make some
Speaker 1: creative progress. Um. But if you go back to some
Speaker 1: things over and over, you know, it can almost be
Speaker 1: like a fix, you know what I mean. It serves
Speaker 1: some strange either an ego need or um, some strange
Speaker 1: escapist inability to be in the moment and just be
Speaker 1: taking in the things that are actually in your life,
Speaker 1: especially when it's someone who is not in your life
Speaker 1: and you want to go back and like, let me
Speaker 1: fix things with that person, or you're imagining that person
Speaker 1: and how they live a little too much and it's like,
Speaker 1: why why am I displaced from my own experience? Obsession
Speaker 1: kind of works this way too. Competition with other writers
Speaker 1: competition with other women, competition with other people who do
Speaker 1: what you do. These things can fill the same strange
Speaker 1: place where you're actually working out something else by fixating
Speaker 1: on them. And you think you're telling a story that's
Speaker 1: about no, there's a problem there, but actually you're telling
Speaker 1: about yourself and your own insecurities and your own inability
Speaker 1: to stop touching that fire. Yep. I think we all
Speaker 1: have some things in us that are that are like that.
Speaker 1: And this makes me think a little bit of one
Speaker 1: of the lines from your book that it's sort of
Speaker 1: this conversation in general, and you say, I think it's
Speaker 1: really easy to see your life as a series of
Speaker 1: problems instead of seeing it is a patchwork of things
Speaker 1: to savor. Yeah. Yeah, like as if everything just needs
Speaker 1: to be solved and put out of the way until
Speaker 1: there's nothing left. Do you want to live in an
Speaker 1: empty room? When I was a kid, uh, the scene
Speaker 1: in UM I think it's Yellow Submarine with nowhere man?
Speaker 1: Do you remember that scene where and the fan is
Speaker 1: walking along and it's all I mean, I remember it
Speaker 1: actually being more dramatic than it actually is, because I
Speaker 1: saw it recently and I was like, I remember it
Speaker 1: being much more depressing than this. But he used to
Speaker 1: freak me out that there was nothing there. I think
Speaker 1: having been raised a Catholic, Um, there was something about
Speaker 1: an imaginary man in a place that's just white and
Speaker 1: everything disappears and he has nothing. It just felt so
Speaker 1: threatening and terrible to me. Um. But that's when you're
Speaker 1: fixing everything to get it out of the way. That's
Speaker 1: kind of what you're aiming for, is like you think
Speaker 1: that it's you're kind of just aiming for death, right,
Speaker 1: because there is no rest, there's no real peace where
Speaker 1: there's just nothing, there are always more problems to solve, right.
Speaker 1: And also what you said about the kids, I think
Speaker 1: is it is interesting kids with different issues. Um, it's
Speaker 1: the waiting for a diagnosis somehow, or not really knowing
Speaker 1: how much help you should be giving and how much
Speaker 1: you should be you know, except doing what you have. Um.
Speaker 1: I think that's a nice metaphor for where we all
Speaker 1: end up with ourselves sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, I mean definitely
Speaker 1: like I am this way, you know I am. A
Speaker 1: personal example for me is it's very easy for me
Speaker 1: to become sort of very withdrawn and quiet, and that
Speaker 1: could be difficult in in relationships it's also just a
Speaker 1: it's you know, part of who I am in some way,
Speaker 1: and so there's this always this question of well, how
Speaker 1: much do I work to improve that versus how much
Speaker 1: do I accept it? And you know, I've been thinking
Speaker 1: of things sort of on a scale more lately and
Speaker 1: realizing it's not about not being a certain way, it's
Speaker 1: about being the right amount of a certain way. Like
Speaker 1: that that tendency of mine to kind of go off
Speaker 1: in my head and think about things is in one hand,
Speaker 1: very bad for me and also one of the one,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the best things about me. It
Speaker 1: gives me some of my best strengths. And so instead
Speaker 1: of trying to be a different person and have different characteristics,
Speaker 1: how do I how do I dial those characteristics to
Speaker 1: levels that are more skillful for my life versus trying
Speaker 1: to be a way that I'm not. I think that personally,
Speaker 1: I have sort of started to put aside the idea
Speaker 1: that there's some objective good way to be about anything,
Speaker 1: and it's actually legitimate, especially as when you're older and
Speaker 1: you're talking about within the context of a partnership or
Speaker 1: a marriage or a friendship. Um, it's not about anyone
Speaker 1: would agree that you're crazy or and you know anyone
Speaker 1: would agree that you don't talk enough. It's actually just
Speaker 1: two people defining for themselves what works uh separately and
Speaker 1: what works together. And it's about asking for Okay, I
Speaker 1: understand that this silence you have going on works for you.
Speaker 1: I'm going to need more, you know, But then also
Speaker 1: examining do I compulsively always need more? Am I attracted
Speaker 1: to silence? I mean, most of us do end up
Speaker 1: with people who just there's spark there because we need
Speaker 1: a little more from that kind of person. And in couples,
Speaker 1: I think also one person really does end up being
Speaker 1: more a little more withholding, and the other person ends
Speaker 1: up being a little more, give me a little more,
Speaker 1: give me a little more. I don't think that's actually
Speaker 1: a pathology or a dysfunction. It's kind of just the
Speaker 1: way it is. Like you can put the same two
Speaker 1: people in a different couple and they'll start doing the
Speaker 1: opposite things based on what the other person. You know,
Speaker 1: how the other person is trying to solve the puzzle
Speaker 1: of them. So lately I've been kind of feeling my
Speaker 1: way into this new place where it's sort of like
Speaker 1: I might be an objective lunatic on anyone else's scale.
Speaker 1: Or maybe maybe our culture which is crazy, our culture
Speaker 1: is completely mad, um, But maybe our insane culture defines
Speaker 1: me insane? Um? Am I going to take that to
Speaker 1: heart every day of my life? I live in the suburbs. Um,
Speaker 1: the suburbs are a strange place. Am I going to
Speaker 1: uh navigate my entire existence around the norms of the
Speaker 1: people around me in the suburbs? Or am I actually
Speaker 1: going to just say bar? It will be the scrivener.
Speaker 1: I choose not to, like Bartleby, I choose not to. Um,
Speaker 1: I prefer not to. That's what we say. He doesn't say,
Speaker 1: I choose not to. I think letting go of the
Speaker 1: notion that there's some objective form of healthy person is
Speaker 1: so important, um, And especially between two adults in a relationship.
Speaker 1: I mean, I end up saying to my husband often, Look,
Speaker 1: you don't have to apologize just because you're a weirdo
Speaker 1: in this or that way. All that matters is whether
Speaker 1: or not it makes me, you know, angry or insane,
Speaker 1: and whether or not the things I do make you insane,
Speaker 1: and whether we can just talk it out and you know,
Speaker 1: we can work it out. We can work it out,
Speaker 1: you know, we can compromise and find a way of
Speaker 1: each getting what we need. We're just here to kind
Speaker 1: of help each other and to get what we need
Speaker 1: at the same time. And it doesn't matter what the
Speaker 1: if the entire world says there are things that they
Speaker 1: have going on is nutty, there's something wrong there, It
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. I'm going to read something that you wrote
Speaker 1: that's very similar to this idea, and you say, my
Speaker 1: guess is that at least some of the ship you're
Speaker 1: taking for being out of step with the mainstream is
Speaker 1: related to your perfectly understandable urge to shove all of
Speaker 1: humanity into one of two clean categories, odd and normal
Speaker 1: and vibrant in Dollsville, unique in average. But first, you're
Speaker 1: gonna need to relax your grip on your worldview a
Speaker 1: little and accept yourself for who you are once and
Speaker 1: for all. And while you're at it, except that the
Speaker 1: so called ultra normals out there are far more complex
Speaker 1: than you give them credit for. I like letters where
Speaker 1: people bring me their perceptions of what is acceptable and
Speaker 1: what isn't acceptable, and even what is um daring and
Speaker 1: rock and roll and what's just milk toast and boring,
Speaker 1: and sometimes people have these I got something recently from
Speaker 1: someone who was talking about being into you know, freaky
Speaker 1: sex and s and a B D S M, and
Speaker 1: she was saying, I won't settle for anyone who isn't
Speaker 1: open to the freaky things that I'm open to. And
Speaker 1: I mean, I struggle with exactly how to answer this
Speaker 1: because of part of me feels like who defines what
Speaker 1: bland sex is and what freaking sexes sex is to
Speaker 1: people deciding together how they're going to communicate or take
Speaker 1: part in this kind of physical party. You know, So
Speaker 1: why is there somehow a lot of cash around putting
Speaker 1: on black leather versus just having missionary style sex. It's
Speaker 1: just an arbitrary distinction that places the alternative in some
Speaker 1: rarefied realm in your mind when you could be turning
Speaker 1: your back on someone who is just you know, the
Speaker 1: the energy that you seek might not actually have translated
Speaker 1: itself into sex for this person, but you'll still find
Speaker 1: it with this person. And saying straight out of the gate,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna need this stat and this um cuts you
Speaker 1: off from a lot of kind of forms. You know.
Speaker 1: It's almost like a way of never being vulnerable to
Speaker 1: come into relationships saying, here's my laundry list of what
Speaker 1: I just fire. And I understand it at the level
Speaker 1: of I need an egalitarian partner. I can't be with
Speaker 1: someone who doesn't see me as an equal. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's a very basic thing. Um. But but then when
Speaker 1: the laundry list is very detailed, I'm gonna need Kellogg's
Speaker 1: corn flicks every morning, tea without sugar. It's a challenge
Speaker 1: to kind of loosen uh, other people's grips on what
Speaker 1: they think are the parameters of what they're dealing with.
Speaker 1: And and there are assumptions, I mean, we have so
Speaker 1: many just really dumb, flat simple assumptions about what categories
Speaker 1: of people are okay, and what kind ofgories of people
Speaker 1: are messed up and weird keep them away from us.
Speaker 1: You know. We have these ideas about weakness and how
Speaker 1: if someone says too much that means they're weak somehow,
Speaker 1: whereas it's someone who can perfectly, you know, ape the
Speaker 1: successful dude in our mainstream society is somehow getting you know,
Speaker 1: hitting on all cylinders, and everyone else is just fumbling.
Speaker 1: So being able to put that into language is a
Speaker 1: challenge because you're kind of taking apart everything that people
Speaker 1: know and trying to challenge. I mean, you end up saying,
Speaker 1: what what is this? Where does this come from? Does
Speaker 1: this serve you? If it serves you, if you're happy
Speaker 1: in that fantastic you know who. I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: change everyone's perception of what's normal. Certainly, Um, god knows,
Speaker 1: I don't know what normal is. But people really let
Speaker 1: themselves be guided and fenced in and put in a
Speaker 1: corner by these dichotomies that don't really serve the fullness
Speaker 1: of what we are as human beings inside. Yeah, they
Speaker 1: don't really exist in a real way. And I think
Speaker 1: that is probably one of the biggest things that's happened
Speaker 1: to me is I've gotten older. Similar to what you
Speaker 1: sort of said in that piece, is that I stopped
Speaker 1: sort of dividing people into categories of Like when I
Speaker 1: was in a a UM or twelve step programs supposed
Speaker 1: to be anonymous. Um. You know, there was this idea
Speaker 1: that they were like normal people and then there were us,
Speaker 1: and that drove me up a wall. After a while,
Speaker 1: I was like, that is just not true, right, There
Speaker 1: is not normal people and then there's us, Like I
Speaker 1: may struggle with this thing, whereas you struggle with that.
Speaker 1: And we had Glenn and Melt and Oil on the
Speaker 1: show a long time ago, and she said something that
Speaker 1: just always I go. I've said it on the show
Speaker 1: fifteen times because it blew me away, and it speaks
Speaker 1: to this. She said, if you stay on the surface
Speaker 1: with people, you know, you don't connect with anybody because
Speaker 1: everybody's got different surfaces. But if you take the risk
Speaker 1: to go deeper with people, you connect with a lot
Speaker 1: more people because as you go a couple of levels down,
Speaker 1: we're really all the same. And I just thought that
Speaker 1: was so wise, And that's kind of what we're talking about,
Speaker 1: is you're you're saying, don't don't cut somebody out of
Speaker 1: your life because their surface doesn't look exactly like what
Speaker 1: you think it should. You know. The hard part, I
Speaker 1: think is that we don't know how to negotiating, how
Speaker 1: to get down beneath the surface with people. Every person
Speaker 1: is different, very hard to do. And I do think
Speaker 1: that this is something kind of interesting that ties back
Speaker 1: to what we were talking about before. My only interest
Speaker 1: in not being um jarring to other people because I
Speaker 1: kind of like being a weirdo now I go through stages,
Speaker 1: of course where I do I don't like it, and
Speaker 1: I try to just you know, let me just fit in.
Speaker 1: I don't want to be obtrusive, just let me, you know,
Speaker 1: fade into the background. Um. But I'm in kind of
Speaker 1: a phase of like, Okay, this is what I'm wearing, everyone, look,
Speaker 1: let fly a little bit right now. I don't know
Speaker 1: what exactly is going on. But the only level at
Speaker 1: which I find myself returning to this place where I
Speaker 1: am concerned with what the dominant language is is I
Speaker 1: don't like the idea that I cut off relationships because
Speaker 1: I assert my um weirdness, you know, and I don't
Speaker 1: know how to I don't always know how to navigate
Speaker 1: with some people in order to just really connect with them. Um.
Speaker 1: I think what I was gonna say is it's sort
Speaker 1: of like, um, I dislike the fact that and maybe
Speaker 1: this is just like an assertive woman thing. But I
Speaker 1: people have trouble trusting me a little bit in some ways.
Speaker 1: Some people trust me with everything, and other people it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter how long I know them, they'll never quite
Speaker 1: trust me. And maybe, I mean, maybe I'm deeply untrustworthy
Speaker 1: at some level, I'm open to that too. Maybe there's
Speaker 1: some energy that's you know, it could be like a
Speaker 1: competitive energy that I have, which I do have a
Speaker 1: competitive energy UM. Or maybe it's just I mean, writers
Speaker 1: sometimes are you know, package the things they say, and
Speaker 1: a lot of different angles of like I have trouble
Speaker 1: just saying I'm proud of my work without saying but
Speaker 1: I'm a dope, you know, but I don't know what
Speaker 1: I'm doing. UM. I can't just rest on one thing.
Speaker 1: I have to give a complicated, conflicted answer as you can.
Speaker 1: But I think it's interesting when you see people like
Speaker 1: UM preachers and UH ministers and teachers who can meet
Speaker 1: people where they are without pushing them away naturally. I
Speaker 1: think if you spend a lot of time needing more
Speaker 1: from people, you also push people away because you're in
Speaker 1: that battle. And this is a very recovery kind of
Speaker 1: thing of like you want more, but you're also I
Speaker 1: don't need you. I don't need anyone UM and I
Speaker 1: you know, watching I'm kind of fascinated by people who
Speaker 1: minister to other people and know how to find them
Speaker 1: and and just be solid instead of putting too much
Speaker 1: of their their ego doesn't come into the picture. Comes
Speaker 1: in in a way that's just makes makes a lot
Speaker 1: of room around it somehow. Yeah, I think that's what
Speaker 1: it is. And I mean I have times where I
Speaker 1: think I'm able to be that kind of person, like
Speaker 1: I can just be there for people, and then I
Speaker 1: have other times where I simply cannot. And and for me,
Speaker 1: the difference really is is how much of my focusing
Speaker 1: or preoccupied with myself, you know, whether that be how
Speaker 1: my stomach feels, or how you see me, or am
Speaker 1: I going to get paid for this or whatever the
Speaker 1: various things are. It really is the times that I'm
Speaker 1: able to do that is when there's just less of
Speaker 1: me and some in some sense that's not exactly what
Speaker 1: I want to say, but less of that, it's less
Speaker 1: self consciousness, and I'm not thinking about myself. I'm genuinely
Speaker 1: looking at them and going, wow, okay, what's happening there?
Speaker 1: Versus my normal mode, which is I'm a little bit
Speaker 1: curious about you, and I'm also incredibly thinking about how
Speaker 1: I feel and what's happening. And and that's gotten better.
Speaker 1: And I don't know whether to give myself credit for
Speaker 1: that or just to think I just have gotten older.
Speaker 1: And it's helped. I think it's a little of both. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I think sometimes even if you
Speaker 1: have the best intentions, if you go into an interaction thinking,
Speaker 1: you know, okay, in a in a situation like this,
Speaker 1: we're talking to each other, it's an interview, it's sort
Speaker 1: of like you want to get in the zone where
Speaker 1: you're kind of building a conversation together that has a
Speaker 1: lot of ideas in it, and you want to like, really,
Speaker 1: you know, collaborate and make something. Sometimes if you bring
Speaker 1: that energy to interactions with just people in your life,
Speaker 1: you're basically end up being kind of controlling. You're trying
Speaker 1: to pull things out of them. Let's really get down
Speaker 1: to the nitty gritty, and they're like, God, get out
Speaker 1: of my kitchen. I'm not interested in this. So in
Speaker 1: some ways, for me, learning how to relax in the
Speaker 1: presence of other people has sadly been a big part
Speaker 1: of last five years of my life. And now I
Speaker 1: notice the people who don't know how to do it.
Speaker 1: I know, and I mean I'm not judgmental of that.
Speaker 1: I lived there for you know, forty years, but figuring
Speaker 1: out how to just you know, people show up at
Speaker 1: your house. We had a series of guests this weekend,
Speaker 1: and people show up and they bring a lot of
Speaker 1: different things, and you never really know which person you're
Speaker 1: gonna get from. You know, an old friend you've known
Speaker 1: for twenty years can show up as fifteen different people
Speaker 1: based on how their day win, or how their week went,
Speaker 1: or how their year went. And you try to greet
Speaker 1: the person that's there and work with whatever you have,
Speaker 1: you know, which takes being okay with who you are,
Speaker 1: or at least being able to put yourself aside a
Speaker 1: little bit, like you said, and we do the same thing.
Speaker 1: We show up as fifteen different people. UM, so we
Speaker 1: are very much at the end of our time. This
Speaker 1: is one of those great conversations where I've looked at
Speaker 1: my notes almost none, um, because we just that's just
Speaker 1: been easy. So but I think I want to I
Speaker 1: want to wrap up with reading one thing. You know,
Speaker 1: you're an advice columnists, and so I mean, that's not
Speaker 1: all you do, but this book is about that. And
Speaker 1: I'm going to read one piece of advice that I
Speaker 1: think is so great, and there's probably ten that I
Speaker 1: could do. And I can't stress enough to listeners of
Speaker 1: this show. If you like this show, you will love
Speaker 1: this book and the column, so I strongly encourage you
Speaker 1: to seek it out. Um, I'm going to read a
Speaker 1: piece of advice and then maybe you could say a
Speaker 1: thing or two about it, and then we will will
Speaker 1: wrap up. Almost every single person who writes to me
Speaker 1: is trapped in his or her head, and to break free,
Speaker 1: you really can't be reminded to step back away from
Speaker 1: the little trivial puzzles of life enough. You need some
Speaker 1: kind of a process that connects you to yourself, to
Speaker 1: your feelings, to a brilliant, full color world that you
Speaker 1: deeply deserve but can't touch or taste yet. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: the one thing that I love about writing um and
Speaker 1: my you know, my advice comes very long, which you
Speaker 1: could have gathered from this interview, but it's you know,
Speaker 1: two thousand words usually my my responses. But the thing
Speaker 1: that I love about doing this is there's such a
Speaker 1: transformation that happens when people stop beating themselves up for
Speaker 1: falling into the same potholes over and over again and
Speaker 1: start just accepting that these are the potholes that I
Speaker 1: fall into, you know, and and and start to forgive
Speaker 1: themselves for the way that they naturally move through the world. Um,
Speaker 1: we are all all clumsy in one way or another.
Speaker 1: And when you finally realize that your clumsiness doesn't set
Speaker 1: you apart, it actually makes you a human being and
Speaker 1: connects you to everyone else who's alive. It's like you
Speaker 1: can see color for the first time. It's like you
Speaker 1: can feel your emotions for the first time in a
Speaker 1: pure way, because you don't have judgments about what it
Speaker 1: means that you're feeling something a so called negative emotion
Speaker 1: or just any emotion. I mean, so many of us
Speaker 1: are cut off from our emotions because we've just been
Speaker 1: taught to associate emotion with being out of control. Um.
Speaker 1: But when you can feel your emotions, when you can
Speaker 1: forgive yourself for having emotions, and for having a human body,
Speaker 1: and for having a brain that works in certain ways
Speaker 1: and sends you into that pot hole over and over again,
Speaker 1: the whole world blossoms in front of you. It's not
Speaker 1: that your life is a never ending epiphany. It's just
Speaker 1: that you have this I don't know. It's like an
Speaker 1: ability to touch the divine somehow, you know, and to
Speaker 1: and to feel right with the world in a really
Speaker 1: deep and kind of measurable palpable way and the ability
Speaker 1: to kind of put that into words. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: the challenge of every column I write is to put
Speaker 1: that feeling into words and also to nudge someone and
Speaker 1: make that turn. You know. It's just so satisfying and
Speaker 1: so difficult. Um, but I love it. I love it,
Speaker 1: And that was Thank you for reading that. It's really
Speaker 1: really nice. There's so many I could read, and you
Speaker 1: do a wonderful job of of putting in into words
Speaker 1: and nudging people. This has been a great conversation. I
Speaker 1: feel like I could do it for another two hours effortlessly.
Speaker 1: So we'll have to have you back. We'll have to
Speaker 1: have you back another time. Um, but thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming on again, listeners. I I can't recommend
Speaker 1: the book How to Be a Person in the World enough.
Speaker 1: And we'll have links in the show notes to her
Speaker 1: work and you can find it there. And thank you
Speaker 1: so much for coming on. Thank you, Eric. I enjoyed
Speaker 1: it so much. I'd love to come back. Oh some
Speaker 1: nice talking to you. Okay, take care, Okay, you too,
Speaker 1: Bye bye. If what you just heard was helpful to you,
Speaker 1: please consider making a donation to the One You Feed
Speaker 1: podcast head over to one you feed dot net slash
Speaker 1: support