1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:05,359 Speaker 1: There have been a couple of major climate accountability stories 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: over the past week that I want to bring. 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 2: You updates on. 4 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: First, the Carbon Majors report has been updated, and it 5 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: found that the world's top emitters have just admitted more 6 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: since the signing of the Paris Climate Accord in twenty fifteen. 7 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,720 Speaker 1: Emissions have gotten even more concentrated in that time too, 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: with only fifty seven fossil fuel and cement producers linked 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,959 Speaker 1: to eighty percent of global fossil CO two emissions produced 10 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: since the Paaris agreement was signed. The report is now 11 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: part of Influence Map, which tracks lobbying efforts to delay 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: climate policy, and I spoke with both longtime Carbon Major's 13 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: author Richard Heaty and Influence Map program manager Dan van 14 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: Acker about this update. That updated report is sort of 15 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,000 Speaker 1: the perfect setup for the other story we're going to 16 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: dig into today, which is a historic ruling from the 17 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: European Court of Human Rights. The court ruled in favor 18 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: of several older Swiss women who sued their government over 19 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,960 Speaker 1: its weak climate commitments and lack of action on climate, 20 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: arguing that it was violating their right to a healthy environment. 21 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: It's often referred to as the Swiss Granny's case, and 22 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: it's a really big deal that they won. I've got 23 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: Lucy Maxwell, co director of the Climate Litigation Network with 24 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: me today to talk about that. It's all coming up 25 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: after this quick break. I'm Immy Westervelt and this is 26 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:42,480 Speaker 1: drilled for people that have read the other carbon major's report. 27 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: What should people be looking out for in this one? 28 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 3: So yeah, the main obviously new thing that influenced that 29 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 3: is bringing is we've updated the data fully to twenty 30 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 3: twenty two reporting. So the primary area of focus in 31 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 3: our research is kind of focused on that new data, 32 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 3: and the way we framed that is largely in assessing 33 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 3: the period after the Paris Agreement at the end of 34 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 3: twenty fifteen, so all the data from twenty sixteen through 35 00:02:10,680 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 3: twenty twenty two and comparing the production and emissions data 36 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 3: in those years compared to both kind of the recent 37 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 3: period before the Paris Agreement, but then also just more 38 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 3: widely in the historical context compared to the previous findings. 39 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 3: Top line, what we find is some similar but maybe 40 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 3: even more dramatic statistics than what have been published from 41 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 3: the data in the past. Namely, this very concentrated top 42 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 3: line group of just fifty seven producers being linked to 43 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 3: eighty percent of global fossil fuel inc ument CO two 44 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 3: emissions since the Parasagreement. 45 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: I was really struck by that too. 46 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: The other thing that jumped out was just this almost 47 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,920 Speaker 1: even split between the investor owned and state owned entities, 48 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: and I wonder, I don't know if that's something that 49 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: has been analyzed before, but I'm seeing an increased awareness 50 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: of the trickiness of dealing with the state owned entities 51 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 1: and how different it is from the investor owned ones. 52 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 2: So yeah, I wonder if you could speak to that 53 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 2: a little bit. 54 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, I'm sure Rick will have plus here too, 55 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 3: but I can kick off on the data side, So 56 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 3: definitely we wanted to highlight that just because it is 57 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,920 Speaker 3: interesting that obviously the data can be used to track 58 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 3: the differences there. So notably, investor owned companies account for 59 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 3: a slightly smaller percentage since the Paris Agreement than the 60 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 3: state identities. Also, although obviously still being very significant in 61 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 3: global emissions. In particular, where we do highlight it in 62 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 3: the report is that in coal production in particular, we're 63 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 3: seeing investor owned companies coal production is slightly on the decline, 64 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 3: while state owned and nation state producers really continue to 65 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 3: considerably ramp up their coal production. So that's really where 66 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 3: we're seeing kind of a shift between the companies in 67 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 3: terms of supply dynamics. 68 00:03:58,120 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 4: Reck. 69 00:03:58,280 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 3: I don't know if there's anything you want to add 70 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 3: just from a long or a wider perspective there. 71 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 5: Well, we don't have reserves data in the Carbon Major's database, 72 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 5: but the state of identities own the vast majority of 73 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 5: the proven of coverable oil and gas reserves. So it's 74 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 5: underscores the importance of keeping state owned oil and gas 75 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 5: and coal companies in the carbon Major's database and focused 76 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 5: for policymakers around the world, whether it be charging them reparations, fees, 77 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 5: or other ways of helping entities pay for climate damages, 78 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 5: they should definitely be in the mix, not only their 79 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 5: obfuscation and statements at comp events, but also how they 80 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 5: invest even more more capital into new reserves and new 81 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 5: production capacity. Almost every company in the Middle East, Persian 82 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 5: Gulf are investing billions and at tens of billions in 83 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 5: expanding capacity. 84 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: I know you've been looking at the carbon mators for 85 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: a long time. What's been jumping out to you in 86 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: the last few years as there's been a little bit 87 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: of movement on the policy front. 88 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 5: I see more and more scientists and cloud modelers being 89 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 5: interested in our results. Provided some data to people who 90 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 5: are doing heatwave analysis and attributing responsibility, but that their 91 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 5: emerging programs that I can't quite talk about at this point, 92 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 5: But a lot of scientists and policy makers to some 93 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,040 Speaker 5: degree are interested in this data so they can press 94 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:35,880 Speaker 5: the case against particular both stayed owned as well as 95 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 5: investal owned companies. 96 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 1: Apologies if this already exists and I have missed it, 97 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: Is there or are there plans to be a methane 98 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: majors database anytime soon? 99 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 3: Good question. I mean well within carbon major So we 100 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 3: do track the methane emissions of some of the fossil 101 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 3: fuel production processes, at least on our side. Otherwise it'll 102 00:05:57,920 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 3: probably remain at that for now. I don't know, Rick, 103 00:05:59,640 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 3: If you have plans to expand research and research into me, then. 104 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 5: Well, we do include estimated methade emissions in our database, 105 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,720 Speaker 5: so we report on gigatons of CO two equivalent through 106 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 5: their scope on emissions, but we don't link those two 107 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 5: company declared methane emissions because I find those not plausible. Yeah, 108 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 5: when you have methodology to assign or estimate and quantify 109 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,480 Speaker 5: methane emissions on the basis of global oil and gas 110 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 5: and coal emissions on a per ton basis. I'm not 111 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 5: saying that's absolutely accurate. I'm sure certain it isn't, but 112 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 5: at least we have an estimate of attributed methane emissions 113 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 5: that aligns more with global emissions. Then I feel like 114 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 5: the statements made by other gas companies themselves tend to 115 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 5: be underestimates. But I'm not planning a separate methane database. 116 00:06:56,920 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 1: Now you mentioned a bit more scientists are interested in 117 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: incorporating this data into attribution studies and things like that. 118 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: Are you also seeing more academic researchers and lawyers and 119 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: folks in the litigation space using this data as well? 120 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. 121 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 5: I provided data to a number of the cases now 122 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 5: winding their weights records in Puerto Rico, for example, in 123 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 5: Moltnomah County, and some state level attorneys general's efforts in 124 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 5: that regard and on the science. And I did a 125 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 5: report with corfordic Solutioner and others climate reparations just last fall, 126 00:07:45,480 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 5: which I think you might have seen, but if not, 127 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 5: I'll send you that report. 128 00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I thought it was so interesting. 129 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 5: And then I did a report with Marco Gresso in 130 00:07:53,480 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 5: Italy on estimating, quantifying emissions and reparations to the leading 131 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 5: twenty oil and gas and coal companies, which then I 132 00:08:02,520 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 5: filed enough of David on behalf of Greenpeace Italy and 133 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 5: recommon with the Court in Rome in their case against 134 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 5: the ANI. So that's interest on and it's work on 135 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 5: a number of different levels. And then when scientists come 136 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 5: to me and said we'd like the missology data to 137 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 5: see how how we can use that to quantify attribution 138 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 5: to carbon majors of various heat waves. So they've done 139 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,719 Speaker 5: a global search for heat waves and tying that to 140 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 5: carb majors emissions. And I'm sure there'll be a lot 141 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 5: more work coming down the road. And now that influence 142 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 5: maps will come out of an update this week. 143 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: I find the stat about the increase in the seven 144 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: years since Paris compared to the seven years before it 145 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: to be interesting. 146 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 5: And we don't have a handle on the climate char 147 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 5: change problem, as you well know. 148 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 2: So yeah, I'm curious what you both think is behind that. 149 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: I know I'm asking you to speculate, but especially since 150 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: influence map does look at the lobbying component as well. 151 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 2: What do you think is driving that? 152 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: Is there a sense that, like, I know, I'll just 153 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: stay anecdotally that it seems like a lot of the 154 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: oil companies are kind of raising to tap their resources. Well, 155 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,959 Speaker 1: the gettin's good, So I wonder if that's driving any 156 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 1: of that. 157 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 5: I think you're spot on. I think that's what's behind it. 158 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 5: They're good at extracting carbon and selling at the best profit, 159 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 5: and there are not yet concerned enough about the potential 160 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 5: of stranded assets based on the assumption that the world 161 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 5: will not act quickly enough to curre kail production, and 162 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 5: so they don't see a stranded asset issue, at least 163 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 5: not the Western companies do, which have oil and gas 164 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 5: reserves that might range from six years at current production 165 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 5: to twelve or fourteen years, and for the existing reserves 166 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 5: is fairly short. So I feel like they can outlast 167 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 5: dragons that are coming from the side of your rent, 168 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 5: you know, with more than one hundred years worth of reserves. 169 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 5: That's a differ. 170 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 2: I know. 171 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: I do wonder if that's like because I noticed that 172 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: that the state owned ones have ramped up more than 173 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 1: the investor owned, and I wonder if that's part of it, 174 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: this desire to kind of stockpile wealth from those reserves 175 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: as much as possible before they lose value. 176 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 5: I think that's a fortune long and they would have 177 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 5: to be concerned about the world getting stuff together. Yeah, 178 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 5: and curtail demand either boy improving the efficient use of 179 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:49,080 Speaker 5: carbon or substitutes or alternative technologies in transportation. 180 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 3: Just to make the link back, So what you said, Amy, 181 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 3: on that point of the transition happening is obviously super 182 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 3: dependent on effective policy, and they're exactly they give influence 183 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 3: PHAPS research. We actually made the link in the report 184 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 3: highlighting some of the largest producing entities and carbon majors. 185 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 3: We just see so many links to those companies being 186 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 3: some of the most obstructive companies when it comes to 187 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 3: engaging with climate policy globally. And that's true both for 188 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 3: the investor and companies who are very actively engaged, but 189 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 3: also for some of the state owned companies where we 190 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 3: have data they tend to be less transparent but can 191 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 3: take even more obstructive positions. So yeah, we really do 192 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 3: see a link there where obviously these companies are working 193 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 3: against these policy processes that would enable or are required 194 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 3: to enable the transition. 195 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 5: We don't see shareholder resolutions having enough of an impact. 196 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 5: I mean, I was hoping to get more positive shareholder responses. 197 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 5: At some point, large investors are going to express their concern, 198 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 5: maybe ask the companies to funnel more of their capital 199 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:00,959 Speaker 5: resources into alternatives that can continue brought fiting from all 200 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 5: of the my intensity carbon. 201 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,840 Speaker 1: I was really surprised that in the top ten companies 202 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: since Paris, that only two of the investor owned companies 203 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: are in that list. It's really interesting because I feel 204 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: like a lot of the policy comms, even litigation, you know, 205 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: efforts underweight target the investor owned companies. And I don't know, 206 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 1: I haven't seen a lot that has figured out how 207 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: to deal with this state owned problem. 208 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 2: Maybe Dan, you know something. 209 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 3: I mean, we do assess to some extent where these 210 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,920 Speaker 3: companies are active in engagement with policy that isn't just 211 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 3: their own policy area for example, SADI or mcoas problem. 212 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 3: They are active in other policy areas. And but yeah, 213 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 3: it's largely as I mentioned black box. Yeah, they're very intransparent. 214 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 3: Where we do have data, they're highly oppositional to any 215 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 3: sort of ambitious climate policy. We tried to drive awareness 216 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 3: of that among policy makers and campaign grewp But yeah, 217 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 3: it's definitely a difficult problem to tackle. 218 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 1: Can you talk through some of the methodology in terms 219 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: of attributing emissions, especially given that so many of these 220 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: companies have joint ventures. 221 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 5: We don't have access to the require data to look 222 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 5: into every joint production agreement and joint ventures, and so 223 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 5: we take the companies at face value for what they 224 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 5: report as their net equity production. So they might operate 225 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 5: or produce oil and the Persian Gulf, but only have 226 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 5: net equity over a certain percentage of it which they 227 00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 5: reporting There are no report so we base our estimates 228 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 5: on what they report is equity production. 229 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 2: Got it? That makes sense? 230 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 5: Like it's a bit with state owned companies, but it's 231 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:47,800 Speaker 5: you know, I think we have a pretty rigorous method 232 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 5: for quantifying that stuff too. But I want to mention too, 233 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 5: Amy that oil and guess companies are pretty fast siled 234 00:13:55,960 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 5: communication to the public and and trying to convey the 235 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 5: public that they are green oil companies to fuel that's 236 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 5: probably overstating it on their behalf, that theyre take climate 237 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 5: change seriously and that they're reducing their emissions and they 238 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 5: can declare that the emissions that they are responsible for 239 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 5: they were reducing dramatically in line with the Paris Agreement. 240 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 5: But of course, as you well know better than anybody else, 241 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 5: is that they're not looking at their Scope three production 242 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 5: related emissions and only claim progress. Albeit fair enough, they're 243 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 5: making good progress in their regard on reducing scope on 244 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 5: and Scope two emissions. You se XL Mobile, for example, 245 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 5: having reduced their Scope one and two emissions from one 246 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 5: hundred and twenty five million times about ten years ago 247 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 5: to around one hundred or one hundred and five million 248 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 5: times now still, and that's a that's a pretty big 249 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 5: number just for scope on and Scope two. Yeah, and 250 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 5: you add three at four hundred and fifty to five 251 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 5: hundred million times. 252 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: I've gon this very strange increase in the investor owned 253 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,040 Speaker 1: companies like Shell has done this with US now and Exxon, 254 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: I think VP as well, pushing a lot of claims 255 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: that they're investing more in quote unquote low carbon solutions 256 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: and then yeah, basically including gas in that. I'm curious 257 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: if you're seeing the same thing and what you think 258 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 1: of that. 259 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 5: Well, I've been more sanguine about natural gas if their 260 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 5: fugitive methane rate was lowered. It looks psych equing or 261 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 5: for example, producing completely offshore and using renewable electricity to 262 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 5: run a lot of their facilities. Their natural gas is 263 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 5: pretty clean, but most of the companies gas prom on 264 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 5: down or not, so I would like to see it 265 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 5: and put much more emphasis in reducing their fugitive and 266 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 5: deliberately invented methane. Then I could buy a bit more 267 00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 5: into the notion that that's a bridge War two to 268 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 5: low tech technology, which has a ways to go. I 269 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 5: ferintitely agree that it's a fossil fuel. It's fossil gas right. 270 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 5: Most natural gas systems lead messaying all the way from 271 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 5: production to their home stove, you know. Investment in clean 272 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 5: technology by Shell and others, I think it's probably a 273 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 5: good public gambit to phrase it that way. We certainly 274 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 5: know that they're not investing nearly enough into really low 275 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 5: carbon technologies. Excellent has abandoned its work on various aspects 276 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 5: of that, and we don't see companies being very serious. 277 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 5: I don't think they take the climate problem to be 278 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 5: very serious. That they're busy making money and will continue 279 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 5: to do that for as long as they can. 280 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we also have some data on our 281 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 3: side to back that up. I mean, if we stop, 282 00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 3: we looked in twenty twenty two, end of twenty twenty two, 283 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 3: we compared a lot of the capital expenditure into green 284 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 3: supposed to green investment compared to fossil fuels as well 285 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 3: as you know what that looks like on the marketing side, 286 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 3: and there's just such a big disconnect in terms of 287 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 3: the level at which these companies are putting out messaging 288 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 3: around the importance of the transition and how they're contributing 289 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 3: to it versus then actually looking at, as you say, 290 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,120 Speaker 3: their capital expenditure, first of all, how that compares green 291 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 3: versus fossil fuels, but then also what they even define 292 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 3: as green is often either not very transparent or in 293 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 3: many cases includes unproven technologies like carbon catcher, reliance on offsets, 294 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 3: or as you say, even just including gas or certain 295 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 3: types of gas technologies in that investment category. I think 296 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 3: at the time we highlighted that perhaps the European majors 297 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 3: were slight any better in this than the US ones. 298 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,439 Speaker 3: But even now, you know, we've seen, like I think 299 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 3: it's BP and Shell have both rolled back their emissions targets, 300 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 3: so even there, we're now kind of seeing a reversal 301 00:17:58,720 --> 00:17:58,959 Speaker 3: of that. 302 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,199 Speaker 1: So, yeah, I'm curious about that because it seemed to 303 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: me like the European majors were a little bit more worried, 304 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 1: let's say, about being sued around, you know, renegging on 305 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 1: Paris commitments. Does that seem like it's what's gone away 306 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: or they're just like, who cares, We're making more money, 307 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: so we'll deal with the lawsuits. 308 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:23,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's tough to say. I don't know 309 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 3: if if Rick you have higher level insights, but I 310 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,359 Speaker 3: think it probably comes back to what we were talking 311 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 3: about earlier, where maybe a few years ago it seemed 312 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 3: like there was wider push for the transition also from 313 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,360 Speaker 3: the investor side, and now that we are seeing profits 314 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 3: rising again in oil and gas, that these companies are 315 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 3: trying to continue to peek out those profits while they 316 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 3: still can. 317 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: One last question for both the you too, is that 318 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 1: given this data, it feels very hard for the industry 319 00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: to claim that they're on track or part of the 320 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: transition and all that stuff. How would you like to 321 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: see people use this data to push them towards getting 322 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: on track with those commitments. 323 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,160 Speaker 5: I would like to see large investors and shareholders bring 324 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 5: it up at their annual meeting, as many shareholders have 325 00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 5: been trying to do. But I think that is a 326 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:17,880 Speaker 5: leverage point. Their own investors will raise objections to their 327 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 5: capital investment plans as not respect in the climate science. 328 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 5: I mean, there are other ways of doing that, but 329 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,560 Speaker 5: shareholders have an important role to play. 330 00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I agree with that. I think also 331 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 3: the power of the data is that it can be 332 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 3: used in so many different ways to hold these companies 333 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 3: to account. So also kind of the legal side that 334 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 3: we've talked about that Rick mentioned, and the academic side, 335 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 3: but also campaign groups can use this data as well 336 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 3: as the financial sector. I think that's where where the 337 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,400 Speaker 3: power is and using the data so widely by these 338 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 3: different stakeholders who have impact in their own different mechanisms. 339 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 5: I like the product information hazard plack Cord said, gas pumps. 340 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 5: So this means from this gas on causes, we ask 341 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 5: guest emissions. Here's here's what it is. Brigallen pumped. Yes, 342 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 5: but I think we need more public warnings like we're 343 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 5: the on cigaret texts. 344 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: If you're passionate about the environment and you enjoy getting 345 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,160 Speaker 1: out into nature. There's another podcast I think you'll love. 346 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 1: It's called out There, and it's an award winning show 347 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: that explores big questions through intimate stories outdoors. For example, 348 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: how do you find the will to live if you 349 00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: have crippling climate anxiety? 350 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 2: Why do people. 351 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,400 Speaker 1: Keep living in places that are prone to natural disasters? 352 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:42,440 Speaker 1: And how could we use national parks to write historical wrongs. 353 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 1: Each episode of out There is a deeply personal narrative 354 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: about regular people whose lives have changed out in nature. 355 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: The current season about There is all about silence. They 356 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: have stories that take us around the globe exploring how 357 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 1: we find stillness amidst the noise of life, whether it's 358 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: through photographing the stars, hiking the Grand Canyon, or visiting 359 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 1: a national park in Korea. Follow out There wherever you 360 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: get your podcasts, or at out there podcast dot com. 361 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:23,720 Speaker 6: That's ou t th e r E podcast dot com. 362 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, in Europe, a landmark ruling from the European Court 363 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: of Human Rights that's likely to have major ripple effects 364 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: throughout the European Union. This is interesting in the context 365 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: of the Carbon Major's report, particularly given the growing divide 366 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 1: between investor owned and state owned oil companies on the 367 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: question of energy transition. Obviously, the governments of Saudi Arabia, 368 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,679 Speaker 1: the United Arab Emirates, and Qatar are not beholden to 369 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: the European Court of Human Rights. But Qatar is the 370 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: number one supplier of gas to Europe at the moment 371 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,640 Speaker 1: and has successfully locked in outrageously long content tracks there, 372 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 1: and the US is right behind them battling for number one. 373 00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,439 Speaker 1: The European market is shifting, and it's going to shift 374 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: even more as governments are increasingly forced to actually comply 375 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: with their climate commitments. That's going to have a big 376 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: impact on suppliers in both the Middle East and the US, 377 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: and could also really shift the math in Asia, which 378 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: will be the target customer for fossil fuels that Europe 379 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 1: doesn't want. All that from one case in Switzerland that 380 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: has been somewhat patronizingly referred to as the Swiss Granny's case. 381 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: Here's Climate Litigation Center co director Lucy Maxwell with more 382 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: on that case. 383 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 4: Yeah, my name is Lucy Maxwell. I'm the co director 384 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 4: of the Climate Litigation Network. 385 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: Can you just outline briefly the cases that we were 386 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: expecting rulings on. 387 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 4: Today, right, Well, there were three cases the European Court 388 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 4: of Human Rights giving its ruling today. The first was 389 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,119 Speaker 4: a case brought by senior women in Switzerland against the 390 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 4: Swiss government because of its weak climate action, especially around 391 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 4: its twenty thirty target. There was a case brought by 392 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,760 Speaker 4: Portuguese young people against thirty two governments in Europe, looking 393 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 4: at each of their actions when it comes to climate 394 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 4: change and finding that they all fall short a best 395 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 4: available science. And finally, there was a case brought by 396 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 4: a French mayor against the French government, again because the 397 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 4: government had failed to meet its own targets to combat 398 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 4: climate change. And they were all alleging that those failures 399 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 4: by their governments amount to violations of their human rights 400 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,879 Speaker 4: because of the impacts that climate change will have now 401 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 4: and in the future on the enjoyment of health, family 402 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,359 Speaker 4: and private life, their and their mortality. 403 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: And we're going to dig into the details, but at 404 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: just a high level, can you tell me what these 405 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,120 Speaker 1: rulings said about each of those cases. 406 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 4: So the European Court of Human Rights upheld the Swiss 407 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 4: senior women's climate case, and fundamentally, the court found that 408 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 4: the climate crisis is a human rights crisis, that governments 409 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,560 Speaker 4: have legal obligations to take much stronger action to protect 410 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 4: people's human rights, and in this case that the Swiss 411 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 4: government's efforts to reduce emissions were not in line with 412 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,959 Speaker 4: best available science. They didn't have a clear plan of 413 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 4: targets for the period up to twenty thirty, and they 414 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,960 Speaker 4: had not even met their own targets. And so for 415 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 4: all of those failures, the European Court found that that 416 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 4: constituted a human rights violation because the state was not 417 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 4: protecting its people from the harm posed by climate change, 418 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 4: and it was looking particularly at the harm that senior 419 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 4: women in Switzerland would experience because of the heat waves 420 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 4: and other impacts that would happen in that country. So 421 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 4: it found that the Swiss government had violated its human 422 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 4: rights obligations. And now the government has to go away 423 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 4: and create a robust and science based climate plan, especially 424 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 4: before twenty thirty, and that's what we're all focused on 425 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 4: government action now to ensure that by twenty thirty we 426 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 4: have massively slashed emissions in order to protect all of 427 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 4: our futures. In the Portuguese Youth climate case, the European 428 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 4: Court found that it wasn't possible for the Portuguese young 429 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 4: people to jointly sue thirty two governments together in Europe. 430 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,439 Speaker 4: At this European Human Rights Court, what the court found 431 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 4: was that because the young people are living in Portugal, 432 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 4: it was necessary for them to take their case only 433 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,920 Speaker 4: against the Portuguese government and back in the national courts. 434 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 4: The court just was not willing to accept that the 435 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 4: nature of climate change, because everyone contributes to it, means 436 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 4: that it's possible to sue multiple governments together. And this 437 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,960 Speaker 4: was quite a new and complex argument that the Portuguese 438 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,080 Speaker 4: young people were making, but unfortunately the court did not 439 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:08,119 Speaker 4: accept that part of it, and they didn't go further 440 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 4: to look at any of the other aspects of the claim. 441 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 4: But they basically said, if you want to bring your case, 442 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 4: you can bring it against Portugal, but you must go 443 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 4: back to the national courts to do that. In the 444 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 4: French Mayor's case, the European Court of Human Rights found 445 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 4: that he was living in France and he could sue 446 00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 4: the French government, but unfortunately he no longer lived in 447 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,679 Speaker 4: the place in France where he was alleging the climate 448 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 4: impacts were happening, which was sea level rise. He now 449 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 4: lived in Brussels. Because he's no longer the mayor of 450 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 4: that place, he has work outside of France, and because 451 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 4: he's not located there, he no longer has that ability 452 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 4: to bring the case. So a lot of the decisions 453 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 4: of the court in these three cases focused on who 454 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 4: was bringing the case and against which of government, And 455 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 4: that shows you that access to the courts can really 456 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 4: depend on where you're living and which government you can sue. 457 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: It sounds like a lot of jurisdictional stuff being worked 458 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: out to Yeah, absolutely. 459 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,000 Speaker 2: Just like standing and all of that. 460 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And in some ways it's still a very 461 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 4: traditional approach to who can bring a court case, even 462 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 4: though we know that one country's emissions have huge impacts 463 00:27:31,640 --> 00:27:36,400 Speaker 4: on people living far outside its borders, right, But this decision, 464 00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 4: these decisions today don't open the door to those kind 465 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 4: of global claims. It's a quite traditional approach as far 466 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 4: as we can tell. And it means that, yeah, it 467 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,800 Speaker 4: looks like the first port of call is the government 468 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 4: in the country that you're living. And obviously for many 469 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 4: many affected communities, especially those in low lying islands in 470 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 4: the global South, in arrange of developing countries, the countries 471 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 4: in which they're living are not the primary countries that 472 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 4: have contributed to the climate crisis, right, So that I 473 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 4: think is going to be a topic that many people 474 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 4: will be discussing in the weeks to come. What does 475 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:24,400 Speaker 4: this mean for the global justice aspect of climate litigation? 476 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting because I was just also reading about 477 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: how Shell is being sued in the UK, for example, 478 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: for impacts in Nigeria, because the company has a headquarters 479 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: in the UK. That can work as sort of a 480 00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: global case. But yeah, it's interesting that it can't be 481 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: the government of another country. 482 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, so far, that's what it seems. 483 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: So I want to dig into the I'm going to 484 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:59,240 Speaker 1: call the Swiss Grannies case. I've been indoctrinated into calling 485 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,080 Speaker 1: it that. I know you were just saying it's a 486 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,400 Speaker 1: more traditional approach, and yeah, this is the first time, 487 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: if I'm not wrong, that the court has affirmed that, yes, 488 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: this is actually a human rights violation. So yeah, I'm 489 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,120 Speaker 1: curious to hear from you what does that mean and 490 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: why is that important? 491 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 4: Absolutely, the central finding in the Swiss case is completely groundbreaking. 492 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 4: It's the first time that that European Human Rights Court, 493 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 4: the highest court in Europe, has found that climate change 494 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 4: affects human rights now and in the future, that governments 495 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 4: have legal duties to protect human rights from the context 496 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 4: of the climate change, in the context of the climate crisis, 497 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:44,160 Speaker 4: and they need to adopt science based targets to prevent 498 00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:49,720 Speaker 4: further dangerous climate change. This ruling will have huge implications 499 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 4: not just for communities in Europe who are already taking 500 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 4: their governments to court for weak climate action, but all 501 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,680 Speaker 4: around the world where there's this movement of people who 502 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 4: were turning to the courts as a last resort because 503 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 4: their governments are failing to act fast and with care 504 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,640 Speaker 4: and in line with science. And so this ruling will 505 00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 4: give a huge boost to that movement of climate litigation 506 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:20,360 Speaker 4: brought by communities from South Korea to Australia, to Brazil, 507 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 4: Canada and all throughout Europe as well, because this ruling 508 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 4: is influential as the European Court of Human Rights is 509 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 4: one of the most powerful human rights bodies globally in 510 00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 4: terms of its experience. It was created in the nineteen fifties, 511 00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:41,960 Speaker 4: and now it has decided that the well known human 512 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,560 Speaker 4: rights guarantees that have been in place for decades can 513 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:50,160 Speaker 4: apply to this very new and difficult global problem we're 514 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 4: all tackling, and that government's obligations to protect us apply 515 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 4: in the same way, which is very powerful. 516 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: Quite a few of our listeners are in the US, 517 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: and our court system works a little differently. 518 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 4: The decision of a court in one region is of 519 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,560 Speaker 4: great interest to courts in other regions. It's not directly 520 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 4: applicable by a court, say in the US, but what 521 00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 4: we know is that judges are looking to each other 522 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 4: because they're trying to decide these very novel cases in 523 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 4: the context of climate change. So a judge in the US, 524 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,840 Speaker 4: especially if they're looking at a case that concerns the 525 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 4: right to a healthy environment like the Montana decision, or 526 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 4: cases that are being brought by young people in Hawaii 527 00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 4: and many other states in the US, I'm sure they 528 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 4: will find this decision very interesting because some of the 529 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 4: rights that the European Court of Human Rights looked at today, 530 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 4: like the right to life, the right to private and 531 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 4: family life, which includes protection for health, have parallels in 532 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 4: different state constitutions in the US, as they do in 533 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 4: other countries around the world world. So I'm sure this 534 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 4: will be part of a dialogue that these courts are 535 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:06,920 Speaker 4: having with each other when they're looking at how these 536 00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 4: different decisions are being made and how can the well 537 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,040 Speaker 4: established human rights obligations of governments apply to this very 538 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 4: new and difficult challenge of climate. 539 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: Change, And can I have you talk us through how 540 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:26,760 Speaker 1: does the enforcement mechanism work within the European Union and 541 00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: particularly Switzerland in this. 542 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 4: Case, there's an obligation on all of the European governments 543 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 4: that are part of this human rights treaty that they 544 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 4: must respect a decision of the European Court of Human 545 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 4: Rights when it's made against them. So the expectation is 546 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 4: that Switzerland will comply with the Court's ruling and will 547 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 4: go away and significantly increase its climate efforts, put in 548 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 4: place a proper framework from now until twenty thirty and 549 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,120 Speaker 4: ensure that that complies with what science says is necessary, 550 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 4: because that's what the European Court has ordered. In terms 551 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,280 Speaker 4: of enforcement, there are a number of different paths. The 552 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 4: European Court system itself has enforcement mechanisms, so if a 553 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 4: government is not complying, it's possible for there to be 554 00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:20,000 Speaker 4: complaints and supervision and further enforcement. There's also the national 555 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 4: court system where you can bring a case if Switzerland 556 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,000 Speaker 4: is not complying, say in one year or two years, 557 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,720 Speaker 4: and the need to follow up and pressure the government. 558 00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 4: But I think most important of all is going to 559 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 4: be the public scrutiny from everyone watching the Swiss government. 560 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 4: There's a very vibrant civil society movement in Switzerland, as 561 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 4: you will have seen. The senior Swiss women are supported 562 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,479 Speaker 4: by hundreds of people, thousands of people, and they're all 563 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 4: going to be watching because they know that it's part 564 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 4: of the democratic rule of law system that governments need 565 00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 4: to respect and comply with court orders. So that's also 566 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 4: of what will be in the background in terms of 567 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 4: compliance and enforcement in this case. 568 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,480 Speaker 1: You mentioned that this will also impact other cases that 569 00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: are already in motion, and I imagine could also smooth 570 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: the path for people that are considering these kinds of claims. 571 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: Can you talk about that in a little bit more detail. 572 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 1: You know, what cases do you expect to most immediately 573 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:24,839 Speaker 1: be impacted by this. 574 00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:30,600 Speaker 4: Right there's about forty cases pending around the world against governments, 575 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 4: brought by communities who are very concerned that their governments 576 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 4: are not protecting them from climate change and don't have 577 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 4: rigorous and science based climate policies for this ruling will 578 00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 4: be of great interest to them. I'm talking here about 579 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 4: cases in South Korea, in Australia, in Brazil, in Canada, 580 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:56,759 Speaker 4: in Europe, where this ruling has particular binding significance. There 581 00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 4: are already cases happening against numerous high emitting governments where 582 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 4: this decision will be particularly important. So there are already 583 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 4: cases being brought against the governments in Belgium, Sweden, Czech Republic, Italy, 584 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 4: the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, and Poland, and all those cases 585 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,279 Speaker 4: are ongoing and they mainly focus on those governments week 586 00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,840 Speaker 4: twenty thirty targets. We know the science is very clear 587 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 4: almost every government globally is not on track to reduce 588 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,880 Speaker 4: emissions in a way that will prevent further dangerous climate change, 589 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 4: because their twenty thirty targets are two week And so 590 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 4: those cases in Europe and outside will be drawing on 591 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 4: this decision because this decision very clearly says governments have 592 00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:47,760 Speaker 4: legal obligations to take climate action, that climate action must 593 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 4: be informed by science, and it's really important that that 594 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 4: action is taken before twenty thirty, because we know this 595 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 4: is the critical decade if we have any chance of 596 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 4: holding warming to one point five degree and avoiding the 597 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 4: worst future impacts. So we're going to see much bolstering 598 00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 4: and boosting of the existing cases around the world. A 599 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 4: group of about forty and I'm sure many more who 600 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 4: will be inspired to take climate action to the courts. 601 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 4: But I think most of all communities don't want to 602 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,040 Speaker 4: have to go to court. They shouldn't have to put 603 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 4: the time and the energy into litigation. No one wants 604 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 4: that it's a last resort. Hopefully what comes out of 605 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:31,280 Speaker 4: this decision is not necessarily new litigation, it's actual climate 606 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 4: action by the governments that are so Yeah. 607 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you too about what impact you 608 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: think it might have on the EU commissions, you know, 609 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: above and beyond the individual governments. Could it possibly influence 610 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,759 Speaker 1: some of the decision making there around energy and this 611 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: Green New Deal stuff at the U level. 612 00:36:55,800 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, Hopefully today's decision will have a ripple effect through 613 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 4: all of the different government bodies in individual countries and 614 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,160 Speaker 4: at the European level who determine climate policy. It's hard 615 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,839 Speaker 4: to speculate how the European Commission might respond to this, 616 00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 4: but what they do get loud and clear from this 617 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 4: judgment is that the failure to take strong climate action 618 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 4: impacts people's human rights, and that science is a key 619 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 4: source that needs to be taken into account when deciding 620 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 4: the level of ambition of a climate target and a 621 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 4: climate policy. And the EU is currently determining its twenty 622 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 4: forty target right now. There will be more movement after 623 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 4: the European elections and then there'll be a real need 624 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,360 Speaker 4: to decide on that target. I hope that this decision 625 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 4: will inform that that parliamentarians in Europe and the European 626 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 4: Commission will be thinking very hard about the need to 627 00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 4: take ambitious action because they know that human rights are 628 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,319 Speaker 4: at stake, as the highest court on human rights Europe 629 00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 4: has did today. 630 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,719 Speaker 1: I'm working on a story about an industry group that 631 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: represents the largest LNG producers in North America, so Canada 632 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 1: and the US, and they are lobbying different European parliamentarians 633 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: and the energy commissioners and whatnot as well to try 634 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: to get them to embrace a sort of favorable policy 635 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:32,800 Speaker 1: framework for continuing to increase energy imports to Europe despite 636 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: the fact that all the data shows that consumption of 637 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,839 Speaker 1: leg in Europe is actually going down and that that 638 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: looks like it will continue and whatnot. So in a 639 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: situation like that where you now have this decision that's 640 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: saying like, yes, in fact, failing to meet your own 641 00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 1: climate commitments is a violation of human rights. If that, 642 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 1: I don't know, just could make them less just less 643 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: open to that. I honestly found it a little surprising 644 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:07,359 Speaker 1: that these officials would even spend the time to meet 645 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: with these street lobby years. In various statements after these meetings, 646 00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: they're saying things like, oh, like we're going to need 647 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: us LNG for decades and tabling that directive that was 648 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 1: going to ban contracts that ended after I think it 649 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,799 Speaker 1: was twenty forty nine because they didn't want this thing 650 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 1: that the lobbyists are pushing for, which is like twenty 651 00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 1: thirty year contracts lock Europe into LNG imports. So to me, 652 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 1: when I was hearing all of this, I was thinking, like, 653 00:39:42,040 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 1: maybe they'll start to think twice about that sort of 654 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: thing as decisions like this come down. 655 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 4: I think this ruling sense a very clear message to 656 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 4: governments in Europe that courts will be watching their climate efforts, 657 00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,719 Speaker 4: particularly before twenty thirty, and that there will be scrutiny 658 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:05,800 Speaker 4: if they decide to continue their current weak and really 659 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 4: woeful efforts to address the climate crisis. And here I'm 660 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 4: talking about the continued expansion of fossil fuel projects, a 661 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 4: whole range of activities that fly in the face of science. 662 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,640 Speaker 4: Communities know that that's not in line with the science, 663 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 4: and now courts are accepting that that's actually a legal matter. 664 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 4: It's not just a question of politics. And if governments 665 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 4: continue to fail to act and fail to rapidly slash 666 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:38,320 Speaker 4: their emissions, that's something that will go before the courts, 667 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 4: and the European Court of Human Rights has said that 668 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 4: could amount to a human rights violation. If you have 669 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 4: a weak target and you're not meeting your own climate target, 670 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,720 Speaker 4: then you could be found in violation. So I really 671 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,400 Speaker 4: think that will sit on the minds of government decision 672 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 4: makers as they have to consider the energy transition and 673 00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 4: the wide range of policy choices they have ahead of 674 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:02,280 Speaker 4: them they must be taking up to slash slash emissions 675 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 4: and stop the continued expansion of fossil fuels. M m 676 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,240 Speaker 4: mmmmm mm hmmm.